What's the Best Book of the 21st Century?

Summary

All Of It – "What's the Best Book of the 21st Century?"

Podcast: All Of It by WNYC
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Gilbert Cruz, Editor of the New York Times Book Review
Date: July 18, 2024

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Episode Overview

This lively episode centers on the New York Times' freshly released list of the 100 Best Books of the 21st Century. The show explores how the list was created, the merits and pitfalls of such rankings, and invites both critical and celebratory perspectives from the audience. Kusha Navadar talks with Gilbert Cruz, who spearheaded the Book Review project, unpacking methodology, reader reactions, and the standout titles—including Ferrante, Mantel, Kingsolver, and Wilkerson—that define this literary moment. Listeners call in to champion their favorites and critique the list’s omissions, adding energy and community to the debate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Create the List Now?

(03:37–04:44)

• Gilbert Cruz notes that as we approach a quarter-century milestone, there’s a growing sense of what works have lasting significance in 21st-century literature.
• “Let's start to get a sense… this is not a list that's going to last for all time, but let's start to get a sense of what the lasting works are.” (Cruz, 03:43)
• Emphasis on not making the list a staff-only affair—the NYT Book Review leveraged its wide network to invite over 1,000 notable writers, critics, and literary figures to weigh in.

2. The List-Making Process & Voting Details

(04:44–06:29, 06:29–07:06)

• Over 1,000 invitations were sent, with 503 participants ultimately casting votes.
• “The initial list that we sent out was over a thousand names… These are the people that participated either because they were the ones that were willing to do the work or… our email didn't go to their spam folder.” (Cruz, 04:56)
• Each participant could select up to 10 books; votes were simply tallied.
• Data journalism team at NYT’s The Upshot handled polling and calculations.

3. Fiction, Nonfiction & Genre Agnostic Approach

(08:04–09:26)

• Initial debate: Should fiction and nonfiction be separated? Ultimately, all genres combined into a single list, reflecting “robust readers” who cross boundaries.
• Cruz stresses the challenge: “One hundred books seems like a lot… [but] there are a hundred great books on here. I can assure you… the books that were 101 to 150 were also some of the best books that have been published this century.”

4. Recency Bias & Temporal Spread

(09:26–10:16, 10:33–11:25)

• Cruz admits expecting stronger recency bias, yet finds the results surprisingly balanced, with top books released through the whole century.
• Notably, reader-voted lists (separate from critic/author lists) reflect more recency bias—Barbara Kingsolver’s Demon Copperhead tops the readers’ poll, possibly due to its recent accolades.

5. List Highlights – Top Books Examined

#5: The Corrections (Jonathan Franzen)

(12:13–13:29)

• Lauded as a “sprawling family drama” with memorable characters and humor.
• Franzen’s infamous Oprah Book Club controversy discussed as part of its lore:
  • “He expressed some hesitation… He was disinvited and it was a giant controversy… But in terms of the quality of the book, it's a sprawling family drama.” (Cruz, 12:13)

#4: The Known World (Edward P. Jones)

(17:01–18:53)

• Celebrated for its imaginative approach to the legacy of slavery.
• Cruz points out the unique perspective on a “formerly enslaved person [who] owns slaves themselves” as a reason for its lasting impact.

#3: Wolf Hall (Hilary Mantel)

(19:36–21:11)

• First of Mantel’s celebrated trilogy, praised for vividly realizing Thomas Cromwell’s psyche and for making historical fiction urgent and immersive.
• “She gets into the psychology of this man… You just fall into it. The language is amazing, the psychology is amazing, the characters are memorable. I would read it again in an instant.” (Cruz, 19:58)

#2: The Warmth of Other Suns (Isabel Wilkerson)

(23:25–24:55)

• The only nonfiction book in the top 10.
• Wilkerson’s achievement: making sweeping history “extremely readable” and narrative driven:
  • “She's a journalist… when you can apply narrative energy to a sweeping history… it's amazing… you can read it in an instant because the characters sort of bring you through.” (Cruz, 23:51)

#1: My Brilliant Friend (Elena Ferrante)

(26:07–27:11)

• The first in Ferrante’s Neapolitan Quartet, exploring intense female friendship in postwar Naples.
• Ferrante’s use of a pseudonym and the books’ dedicated following make this top pick both “surprising and not.”
• “There is an obsessive quality to people that love the Ferrante books… once you start to read this quartet… you just fall into it.” (Cruz, 26:07)

6. Debates: Inclusion, Translations & What Counts as 21st Century

(16:08–17:01)

• Discussions clarify eligibility rules: books must be published in English in the US after January 1, 2000.
• Translations are included if the English version was first published post-2000, even if the original text is older.

7. Listener Calls and Community Picks

(13:36–14:40, 19:02–22:08, 25:06–25:47)

• Books championed by callers:

  • American War by Omar El Akkad—explored for its prescient take on a second civil war (13:39)
  • Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens—cited for its lyricism, noted as a reader favorite (19:02)
  • Septology by Jon Fosse (#78), admired for uniqueness and hypnotic writing (21:32)
  • Ill Will by Dan Chaon—praised as “not genre horror… just about evil,” reflecting a hunger for more horror representation (25:06)
  • The Last Chairlift by John Irving—highlighted for “40 years of a great family sexual thing… he's one of our great authors” (25:33)
  • Other mentions: Lincoln in the Bardo (#18), The Old Ways by Robert MacFarlane, A Gentleman in Moscow (a top reader pick but not on the NYT list).

• Notable moment: The difference between the critic/author list and the readers’ poll leads to much debate and surprise.

  • “People love that book,” Cruz says of A Gentleman in Moscow’s placement by readers (23:12).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On durability of lists:
  “This is not a list that's going to last for all time, but let's start to get a sense of what the lasting works are.” — Gilbert Cruz (03:43)

• On the difference between critic/reader lists:
  “I was delighted to see that there are 61 books that readers picked on their top 100 that were not on our list.” — Gilbert Cruz (10:33)

• On genre mashup:
  "We said we probably have one shot to, like, make an impact with this list, so let's throw it in altogether." — Gilbert Cruz (08:04)

• On Ferrante’s appeal:
  “There is an obsessive quality to people that love the Ferrante books, and I think the fact that it is at number one...once you start to read this... you just fall into it.” — Gilbert Cruz (26:07)

• On what makes Wilkerson’s nonfiction stand out:
  "When you can apply narrative energy to a sweeping history like the one that Wilkerson does here, you know, tracing the great migration... it's amazing." — Gilbert Cruz (23:51)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:37 — Why now? Rationale for creating the list
• 04:44 — How the participant pool was chosen
• 06:29 — Survey methodology and vote tallying
• 08:04 — Genre approach: fiction, nonfiction, poetry, etc.
• 09:26 — Did recency bias affect results?
• 10:16 — Reader poll vs. Book Review poll results
• 12:13 — The Corrections and Franzen/Oprah controversy
• 17:01 — The Known World and its unique historical angle
• 19:36 — Wolf Hall — why Mantel’s Cromwell endures
• 21:32 — Septology, translation, and Nobel buzz
• 23:25 — The Warmth of Other Suns, narrative nonfiction
• 26:07 — Ferrante’s My Brilliant Friend takes #1

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Tone and Style

The conversational tone is enthusiastic, open to debate, at times irreverent—Cruz and Navadar blend serious literary exploration with accessible, even humorous asides (e.g., the “slightly hilarious” recounting of Franzen’s Oprah feud). Listener engagement is foregrounded, emphasizing the community-building aim of both the podcast and the NYT list.

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Conclusion

This episode is a rich, energetic exploration of literature’s shifting canon, full of passionate opinions and inside stories from the world of books. Whether you’re a lover of Ferrante’s Neapolitan Quartet or a defender of overlooked works, the discussion recognizes the subjectivity and excitement inherent in list-making—an invitation to celebrate, debate, and (re)discover the most powerful stories shaping the 21st century.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Let's go. Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[C]

This is all of it live from the WNYC studio in soho. I'm Kusha Navadar in for Allison Stewart. Hey, thanks for spending part of your day with us. I'm super grateful that you're here. Here's what's up on today's show. Well, you thank talk about ideas for fresh and delicious summer cocktails. And we'll take your calls. We'll also talk about a new documentary series from Hulu that examines the work of Dr. Ann Burgess, who learned how to think like a serial killer in order to capture them. The showrunner of the documentary and Dr. Burgess join us. And then we'll talk to a winner of the 2024 Public Song Project, as well as WNYC's own John Schaeffer, a judge of the project. Lots of cool music in that segment. That's the plan. So let's get the party started with some book talk. What is the best book of the 21st century? Now, that is a highly subjective question, but the New York Times tried to answer it last week. They asked hundreds of authors and other important figures, figures in the literary world, to send in their votes for the top 10 books of the century so far. Participants included John Irving, Stephen King, Marlon James, Ann Napolitano and more. And the results are a list of the 100 best books of the 21st century, at least according to this group of people. And like any good list, this one stirred up some good spirited discussion and debate. No? Haruki Murakami, why are there translations, translated books that were published in the 20th century? Why not more poetry, more nonfiction? And of course, how can one book really be the best? And just today, the Times released a list of 100 best books of the 21st century as voted on by their readers. So we'll talk about that in a little bit, too. And right now, joining me to discuss debate, maybe even defend this list is Gilbert Cruz, the editor of the New York Times Book Review. Gilbert welcome to the show. Thank you so much for this list.

[B]

Thank you for having me on to talk about it.

[C]

Absolutely. And listeners, yes, of course. We want to hear from you. What do you think is the best book of the 21st century so far? What did you think of the New York Times list? Give us a call. The number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Gilbert, you and I are gonna have to be ready to talk about some hot takes from listeners, I am sure. So I hope you're read.

[B]

I will try my best.

[C]

I'm sure it'll be great. Let's talk about why now. Why did right now feel like a good time for this list?

[B]

Sure. So next year is 2025. We had been talking on the desk for a little bit about how it felt as if 20th century art, 20th century literature and movies and albums. We sort of have a sense of what the great works are at this point. We all know that Beloved is one of the great American books that's ever been written. We all know that Blonde on Blonde is one of the great albums. You know, we all know that Vertigo is a great movie. But we're almost a quarter century into the 2000s. We at the Book Review said, let's start to get a sense. You know, this is not. This is not a list that's going to last for all time, but let's start to get a sense of what the lasting works are. And let's not do it just the 30 of us or the 25 of us turned on the Book Review, but let's really reach out to as many novelists and nonfiction authors and poets and critics and other people who read a lot and use our powers at the New York Times to sort of reach out to all these people and see what we can come up with.

[C]

You know, 503 people were asked to participate in the process. That includes Stephen King, Roxane Gay, Min Jin Lee and many, many more. How did you decide who you wanted to include?

[B]

Sure. Well, the initial list that we sent out was over a thousand names. We invited almost twice as many people. These are the people that participated either because they were the ones that were willing to do the work or they were the ones that actually got the emails who our email didn't go to their spam folder. You know, we at the Book Review, even though we have wonderful critics on staff, primarily use outside writers to review books. So we use novelists to review other novelists. We use academics, historians, Experts to review nonfiction books. So every day and every week, we're already sort of engaging with all these people. And so, you know, you, you. We crowdsourced among two dozen of us, you know, 12, 1300 names of people that we thought our readers would, would pay attention to that we wanted to hear from, that we, you know, had a sense are like robust readers and not just readers in their specific field and are broad readers. And then we crossed our fingers, we sent out these emails, and then we sent out a bunch of other emails saying, please take our survey. Did you see it? Hopefully you did. And this is what we got. 503 is not the biggest number, but it's also pretty good.

[C]

It's pretty good. I mean, you said 1,000 originally. I don't know how many more you sent out after that, but that's over 50%. That's impressive. How did the actual math of the process work? How did you tally what book went into which spot?

[B]

Sure, it was sheer votes. So we worked with our team at the Times called the Upshot. They are focused on polling and statistics and data journalism. They're very busy this year because it's an election year, but they said, maybe we'll make some time for this. This sounds pretty fun. And so we put together this survey, this poll, and the math was basically everybody who participated was able to pick up to 10. And then we counted the votes. That's really how it went. And so the one that was at number one, the 10 that were in the top 10, those were the top vote getters.

[C]

Listeners, we're talking to Gilbert Cruz, the editor of the New York Times Book Review, and we're discussing their list, the 100 Best Books of the 21st Century. We want to hear from you. What do you think is the best book of the 21st century so far? If you have dived into the New York Times list already and you have a hot take, something you agree with, something you disagree with a book that was left out and you want to tell us, give us a call. The number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We're talking about the best books of the 21st century. Hit us up. 212-433-9692. Gilbert, there's fiction on this list. There's memoir, history, poetry. How do you think you can good. A book is across genres. What kind of discussions went into that?

[B]

Well, one thing I can say is that one of our earliest conversations was whether or not There should be two lists. There should be nonfiction and fiction. And we came to the conclusion that someone who. People who read a lot, robust readers, which we like to think are the people that read the New York Times Book Review, are sort of genre agnostic in that you'll read a new book, you'll read a novel, you'll read a piece of nonfiction, you'll read a book from 50 years ago, you'll read a book from 10 years ago. And so, you know, we said we probably have one shot to, like, make an impact with this list, so let's throw it in altogether, what that means. And this is to anyone who. Who's going to call in, you know, says, where is this book on there? 100 books seems like a lot when you're talking about all the books that are published in English, in America over the course of a single year. And then you multiply that by more than 20 years. It's actually not that many books. So there are a hundred great books on here. I can assure you, and I don't have them memorized, that the books that were 101 to 150 were also some of the best books that have been published this century. It was really sort of hard to think of a cutoff. But I think we all understand that, like, 100 is a lot. It feels comprehensive, but there's a lot that's not on here.

[C]

Yeah. How much do you think recency bias was at play in making the list? Do you think people were more likely to vote for a book that they read recently?

[B]

I thought that would be the case going in. But if you look at some of the top books on this list, they're, you know, the corrections, for example, the number five book came out in September 2001. Austerlitz, the number eight book came out in 2001 as well. I think I was surprised by how representative of the entire century this list was. There wasn't as much recency bias as I thought there would be. The ones that are on there, Demon Copperhead, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow Trust, Stay True. These are. All three of those books are Pulitzer winners. And so even the books that were published in recent years are sort of readily accepted to be great ones.

[C]

And, you know, it's interesting. Cause just today you released the list of the 100 best books of the 21st century, as voted on by the people. And number one on that list was Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver. Were you surprised to see that book land at number one?

[B]

So I think that might be a Case of Recency Bias. That is probably the great book, the newest great book that people have read. Right? That book came out a couple years ago again co won the Pulitzer Prize in fiction with Hernan Diaz's trust super bestseller. I believe it was an Oprah Book Club pick. I hope I'm not wrong in that. I think it was a book club pick. A lot of people have read this book and it is a great book. So I'm not surprised to see Recency Bias come into play there and to see it all the way up there. I was delighted to see that there are 61 books that readers picked on their top 100 that were not on our list. And I think if, if anyone listening goes to the New York Times website and looks at, at those readers reader picks today, they'd be they probably would find something that they love and have already read.

[C]

Well, let's dive into the list a little bit. And listeners, we're talking about the best books of the 21st century. I see some calls coming in. I want to hit up the list a little bit before we get to calls. But if you have read this New York Times list, give us a call, tell us what you think about it. Tell us what books you would like to see on that list. We're at 212-433-9692. But, but for now, I want to go to number five, which is the Corrections by Jonathan Franzen. And it's a, it's a family dramedy set in the Midwest. This was sort of a literary mega hit when it came out. And there was, there was drama with Oprah's Book Club. Right. And it really solidified Franzen as a star writer of his generation. Why do you think this one holds up up still now over 20 years later?

[B]

You know, I went back and I reread the Corrections a few months ago because I had a feeling that it would end up somewhere on this list. I had no idea how high it would be. And I think that I think it holds up. A, because it's good. B, because people maybe remember the drama a little bit. And for those of you who don't remember, Oprah picked the Corrections as an entry in her book club. She invited Jonathan Franzen to come on the show to talk about it. He expressed some hesitation with the idea of being part of Oprah's book club. He was disinvited and it was a giant controversy. If you don't know anything about this, please go read some articles. It's fascinating and slightly hilarious. They eventually made up, I believe, years later because she ended up picking another book of his way down the line. But in terms of the quality of the book, it's a sprawling family drama. It is funny, the characters are memorable, they're deep, they're unpredictable. And people love family dramas because no matter how normal your family is, there is some sort of sense of chaos in every family. And like any great family saga, the Corrections captures that wonderfully.

[C]

We got our first caller. Let's go to John in Pasadena, California. Hey, John, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hey.

[D]

Thank you. How are you?

[C]

Good, thanks. So what do you got?

[D]

Yeah, my recommendation is a book called American War by Omar El Akit. He's an Egyptian American. And the book basically is about the second American Civil War. In this scenario, it's set between the years 2074 and 2095. So it's a little bit in the future, but not that far. And it's a good read. It's not a lot of technology. The southern states have seceded from the rest of the country because fossil fuels have been banned in the United States. So there's a division here. Mexico has re annexed the southwest United States. And what's remarkable about this book, as I'm reading it, I look at where we are right now and the trajectory that we're on and how divided the United States is and how it can come to something like this.

[C]

Yeah, John, I'm going to pause you right there just for time, but thank you so much for shouting that out. American war published in 2017. Getting some texts in here now that I'll read. We've got Falling Upward by Richard Rohr. We've got Lincoln in the Bardo, which I believe is 18 on the list, actually. Gilbert, is that right? Lincoln in the Bardo?

[B]

It. It sure is. And I have my hardcover copy, coincidentally sitting right next to me on my desk here.

[C]

Oh, there you go. You and the texter something in common. Yeah. And another one, Robert McFarlane's Old Ways. A lot of texts coming in, listeners. We're talking about the New York Times Book Review list of the 100 best books of the 21st century. We're here with Gilbert Cruz, the editor of the New York Times Book Review, and we want to hear from you. Have you seen that list? What do you think about it? What are books that you would want to be included on that list? What's your hot take? Give us a call at 212 433-9692. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back. We're going to go further down the list all the way to number one and take more of your calls. Stay with us. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar, and we are here with Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. We're discussing their list, the 100 Best Books of the 21st Century. Gilbert, we've some listeners who want to know. 21st century, is that the 2000s? Let's make sure that we were all on the same page there at the same time period.

[B]

Wait, what else would it mean?

[C]

I think some 1900s, maybe some 1900s fans are in there.

[B]

No. Yes. We're talking the rules for this survey were book had to be published following January 1, 2000 in the English language in America. And we put those rules in because the New York Times Book Review that that's sort of our zone, our zone of coverage. You know, books that are published in America in the English language. You had a question before, you had mentioned before, you know, some people questioning our inclusion of translated books that were published, you know, before the year 2000. In some cases, they were published many decades before the year 2000. But the truth is that people in America, people in the English speaking world, had not read those books until they were translated into English. And so in our opinion, those counted as part of this survey.

[C]

Listeners, if you have a better handle now on what time period we're talking about and you want to participate, give us a call or at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. I see some more callers before we get to them. Gilbert, I want to talk about number four, it's the Known World by Edward P. Jones. It's about a formerly enslaved man who later owns slaves of his own. What's special about you?

[B]

You know, I think I would urge people to check out a piece that our critic, A.O. scott, who used to be a longtime movie critic for the New York Times, published a couple days ago, and he went down to Washington where Edward P. Jones lives. He teaches down there. And, and he talked to this wonderful writer who doesn't really write that much anymore. You know, he wrote this amazing novel. He wrote a couple of short story collections, and then he went quiet. And despite that, somehow this book has stuck in people's minds. And I think for a couple reasons. One, as is the case with so many books on this list, it's beautifully written, amazingly sort of imagined. And this there are a lot of Books written about the American slavery, historical novels written about American slavery, the legacy of slavery. You know, to imagine a scenario in which a formerly enslaved person owns slaves themselves is just a sort of a unique angle on this, you know, sort of terrible American legacy. It's. It's a great book. I think the fact that it is under known, maybe by a lot of people, but was voted so high means that many people who see this list will be discovering it for the first time, which I think is exciting.

[C]

Yeah, let's. Let's go to another book. We've got Guy in Peekskill. Hey, guy, welcome to the show. What book do you think deserves to be on that list?

[E]

I really liked where the Crawdads Sing. I found it not only a compelling story with lots of themes of the best and worst of humanity, but also lots of surprises. And the way that Delia Owens combined images was like a song in a beautiful. A melody and a beautiful.

[C]

Guy, thank you so much for that. We really appreciate you calling in where the Crawdads Sing. I don't recollect off the top of my head if that's on the list.

[B]

Gilbert, do you know, it is not on our list. It came in at number 59 on the readers list.

[C]

Wonderful. Let's go to number three, which is Wolf hall by Hilary Mantle. We have another book that seems to be on everyone's list. It's a work of historical fiction. Again, that's Hilary Mantel. Sorry. It's a work of historical fiction about the life of King Henry VIII's advisor, Thomas Cromwell. Why has this one become kind of a modern classic?

[B]

So this is the first in a trilogy of books. Two of them made it onto this list. There's Wolf hall, which came in at number three. And then bring up the Bodies, which came in at number 95. The third one is called the Mirror and the Light. And, you know, historical fiction. It's easy to write a piece of historical fiction, particularly about someone like Henry viii, and make it seem stodgy in a way. But the magic that Mantel was able to do with Wolf hall and the other two books in the series was get into the mind of this man, Thomas Cromwell, who was essentially Henry VIII's fixer. Right. He was the guy who was. He was like the Michael Clayton of his day. He was there to solve problems. And Henry VIII sent him, you know, as his person to take care of business. And she gets into the psychology of this man who grew up, you know, not as part of royalty, not his family, wasn't landed. He wasn't rich. He didn't really have anything. He grew up from nothing. Found himself at the right hand of this fascinating, tempestuous royal. And it's. And you just fall into it. The language is amazing, the psychology is amazing, the characters are memorable. I would read it again in an instant.

[C]

We've got some calls out here for septology. There's one text that says I've. I've read it through four times since Christmas and plan to go through it again soon. Moving and hypnotic, easily the best I've read. We've also got Andrew from Brooklyn. Sounds like you want to give in a ring for that book as well, right, Andrew?

[F]

Yes, I do. And I, I wasn't. I'm out here working for our great parks department. So I don't. I couldn't spot check the list if it's on it. So I don't know if it is or not.

[B]

Number 78.

[F]

Oh, okay. I didn't, I didn't know that. So, yeah, the other name through a new name and I think it's just brilliant. And Damien Searle's translation, you know, it's sort of a uniquely Norwegian thing, but the translation makes it quite accessible and it's like not something you think would carry you away, but boy, you can read a thousand pages faster than you probably think if Jan Fossi's the one doing it.

[C]

Thank you so much, Gilbert. Tell us a little bit about that book. That number at 78.

[B]

Sure. So, you know, also possibly a little slight recency by a sear. Although it's obviously good. Joan Fasse, or however you pronounce his name, won the Nobel Prize a couple years ago. Right. And this was a book that was published in 2022. The translation here, it's essentially a seven novel sequence that I think takes place over one sentence. Over seven novels, over a thousand pages. I can't give you any if you don't want to read it. After hearing that, I don't think I could sell it any better. But you know, this is a Nobel Prize winning author who finally, you know, to the rest of the world, at least he's very known in his home country. To the rest of the world. Broke through with the, with septology.

[C]

Yeah, I see a text here for Amor Tolles. A gentleman in Moscow should surely be on the list. I don't believe that that made the list though, right, Gilbert?

[B]

It did not. But whoever texted that it is. Let me double check this. I believe it is number two. No, number three on the reader list. Oh, wow. People. People love that book.

[C]

Now, that's a difference between, you know, readers and I don't know if you say critics, but the New York Times at least coming in at two different spots there. I'm looking at the clock. I want to get to two more books before I get a chance. There's number two. We have the only work of nonfiction to crack the top 10. It's the warmth of other. Isabel Wilkerson's AW Award winning history of the Great Migration. What do you think makes Wilkerson a particularly excellent writer of history?

[B]

I think she does something that's very difficult to do when you're working with history, when you're working with archives, when you're working with journalism. She's a journalist. And you're working with something that people think they already know, which is to make it extremely readable. Right. The terrible thing, but the true thing is when someone says this piece of nonfiction felt like a novel or it felt like a piece of fiction to me because it has energy, it has drive, it has characters. You know, that's not to sort of undercut nonfiction. But when you can do both of those things, when you can apply narrative energy to a sweeping history like the one that Wilkerson does here, you know, tracing the great migration of. Of African Americans from the southern part of the United States to places like Chicago and Los Angeles, it's amazing. I mean, it's a very large book and. And it feels like you can read it in an instant because the characters sort of bring you through. It's not as easy to do as. As you would think.

[C]

Yeah, I'm looking at the clock. I want to get a few more folks in here. Carmen in Binghamton, Very quickly. What's the title? Hey, Carmen, you there?

[G]

Yes. It's called Ill Will.

[B]

Yes.

[G]

Can you hear me?

[C]

Yeah, hi. Ill Will.

[G]

Okay. Ill Will by Dan Schoen or Schown. I'm not sure how to say his name, but it's horror. I didn't see too much horror on the list, which I did love, but it's not genre horror. It's just about evil.

[C]

Wonderful.

[G]

Very good book for our times.

[C]

Ill Will. Thank you so much. Carmen Gregory in Morningside. Gonna go to you very quickly. What's the title of your book?

[D]

The Last Chairlift by John Irving. Like 40. 40 years of a great family sexual thing going on there. He's one of our great authors. Couldn't find it on the list.

[C]

John Irving. Shout out for John Irving Gregory. Thank you so much. And now with the Time we got left. I want to get to number one. We've got. Drumroll, please. Everybody do your drum roll. If you're listening, it's My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante. It's translated by Ann Goldstein. Tell us, Gilbert, why this one at number one? Do you think.

[B]

So? Elena Ferrante, for those listeners who don't know, is an alias. We don't really know who Elena Ferrante is, but Elena Ferrante has written a quartet of books that are now called the Neapolitan Quartet, about two women. You start with them as young Girls in post World War II Naples in Italy, and it traces their lives and their friendship together over many decades. There was a moment when My Brilliant Friend came out, when all of a sudden people discovered that there is a person out there who can write so deeply and intimately about the inner lives of women, which I think many people feel is not something that many writers do very well. There is an obsessive quality to people that love the Ferrante books, and I think the fact that it is at number one, My Brilliant Friend, is both surprising and not. Because once you start to read this quartet of books, you just fall into it. You have to read all 1000 or whatever pages. People love these books.

[C]

Well, we'll have to keep it there for now, but there are so many more books we could have talked about, both that were on the list and ones that weren't. But, Gilbert, we so appreciate you coming and talking to us and for this work, this list. Gilbert Cruz is editor of the New York Times Book Review. Their list, the 100 Best Books of the 21st Century. Check it out, see if one of your favorites is on there. Gilbert, thanks so much for hanging out with us.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[H]

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[B]

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[I]

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