All Of It – "What's the Best Book of the 21st Century?"

Podcast: All Of It by WNYC
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Gilbert Cruz, Editor of the New York Times Book Review
Date: July 18, 2024

Episode Overview

This lively episode centers on the New York Times' freshly released list of the 100 Best Books of the 21st Century. The show explores how the list was created, the merits and pitfalls of such rankings, and invites both critical and celebratory perspectives from the audience. Kusha Navadar talks with Gilbert Cruz, who spearheaded the Book Review project, unpacking methodology, reader reactions, and the standout titles—including Ferrante, Mantel, Kingsolver, and Wilkerson—that define this literary moment. Listeners call in to champion their favorites and critique the list’s omissions, adding energy and community to the debate.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Create the List Now?

(03:37–04:44)

• Gilbert Cruz notes that as we approach a quarter-century milestone, there’s a growing sense of what works have lasting significance in 21st-century literature.
• “Let's start to get a sense… this is not a list that's going to last for all time, but let's start to get a sense of what the lasting works are.” (Cruz, 03:43)
• Emphasis on not making the list a staff-only affair—the NYT Book Review leveraged its wide network to invite over 1,000 notable writers, critics, and literary figures to weigh in.

2. The List-Making Process & Voting Details

(04:44–06:29, 06:29–07:06)

• Over 1,000 invitations were sent, with 503 participants ultimately casting votes.
• “The initial list that we sent out was over a thousand names… These are the people that participated either because they were the ones that were willing to do the work or… our email didn't go to their spam folder.” (Cruz, 04:56)
• Each participant could select up to 10 books; votes were simply tallied.
• Data journalism team at NYT’s The Upshot handled polling and calculations.

3. Fiction, Nonfiction & Genre Agnostic Approach

(08:04–09:26)

• Initial debate: Should fiction and nonfiction be separated? Ultimately, all genres combined into a single list, reflecting “robust readers” who cross boundaries.
• Cruz stresses the challenge: “One hundred books seems like a lot… [but] there are a hundred great books on here. I can assure you… the books that were 101 to 150 were also some of the best books that have been published this century.”

4. Recency Bias & Temporal Spread

(09:26–10:16, 10:33–11:25)

• Cruz admits expecting stronger recency bias, yet finds the results surprisingly balanced, with top books released through the whole century.
• Notably, reader-voted lists (separate from critic/author lists) reflect more recency bias—Barbara Kingsolver’s Demon Copperhead tops the readers’ poll, possibly due to its recent accolades.

5. List Highlights – Top Books Examined

#5: The Corrections (Jonathan Franzen)

(12:13–13:29)

• Lauded as a “sprawling family drama” with memorable characters and humor.
• Franzen’s infamous Oprah Book Club controversy discussed as part of its lore:
  • “He expressed some hesitation… He was disinvited and it was a giant controversy… But in terms of the quality of the book, it's a sprawling family drama.” (Cruz, 12:13)

#4: The Known World (Edward P. Jones)

(17:01–18:53)

• Celebrated for its imaginative approach to the legacy of slavery.
• Cruz points out the unique perspective on a “formerly enslaved person [who] owns slaves themselves” as a reason for its lasting impact.

#3: Wolf Hall (Hilary Mantel)

(19:36–21:11)

• First of Mantel’s celebrated trilogy, praised for vividly realizing Thomas Cromwell’s psyche and for making historical fiction urgent and immersive.
• “She gets into the psychology of this man… You just fall into it. The language is amazing, the psychology is amazing, the characters are memorable. I would read it again in an instant.” (Cruz, 19:58)

#2: The Warmth of Other Suns (Isabel Wilkerson)

(23:25–24:55)

• The only nonfiction book in the top 10.
• Wilkerson’s achievement: making sweeping history “extremely readable” and narrative driven:
  • “She's a journalist… when you can apply narrative energy to a sweeping history… it's amazing… you can read it in an instant because the characters sort of bring you through.” (Cruz, 23:51)

#1: My Brilliant Friend (Elena Ferrante)

(26:07–27:11)

• The first in Ferrante’s Neapolitan Quartet, exploring intense female friendship in postwar Naples.
• Ferrante’s use of a pseudonym and the books’ dedicated following make this top pick both “surprising and not.”
• “There is an obsessive quality to people that love the Ferrante books… once you start to read this quartet… you just fall into it.” (Cruz, 26:07)

6. Debates: Inclusion, Translations & What Counts as 21st Century

(16:08–17:01)

• Discussions clarify eligibility rules: books must be published in English in the US after January 1, 2000.
• Translations are included if the English version was first published post-2000, even if the original text is older.

7. Listener Calls and Community Picks

(13:36–14:40, 19:02–22:08, 25:06–25:47)

• Books championed by callers:

  • American War by Omar El Akkad—explored for its prescient take on a second civil war (13:39)
  • Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens—cited for its lyricism, noted as a reader favorite (19:02)
  • Septology by Jon Fosse (#78), admired for uniqueness and hypnotic writing (21:32)
  • Ill Will by Dan Chaon—praised as “not genre horror… just about evil,” reflecting a hunger for more horror representation (25:06)
  • The Last Chairlift by John Irving—highlighted for “40 years of a great family sexual thing… he's one of our great authors” (25:33)
  • Other mentions: Lincoln in the Bardo (#18), The Old Ways by Robert MacFarlane, A Gentleman in Moscow (a top reader pick but not on the NYT list).

• Notable moment: The difference between the critic/author list and the readers’ poll leads to much debate and surprise.

  • “People love that book,” Cruz says of A Gentleman in Moscow’s placement by readers (23:12).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On durability of lists:
  “This is not a list that's going to last for all time, but let's start to get a sense of what the lasting works are.” — Gilbert Cruz (03:43)

• On the difference between critic/reader lists:
  “I was delighted to see that there are 61 books that readers picked on their top 100 that were not on our list.” — Gilbert Cruz (10:33)

• On genre mashup:
  "We said we probably have one shot to, like, make an impact with this list, so let's throw it in altogether." — Gilbert Cruz (08:04)

• On Ferrante’s appeal:
  “There is an obsessive quality to people that love the Ferrante books, and I think the fact that it is at number one...once you start to read this... you just fall into it.” — Gilbert Cruz (26:07)

• On what makes Wilkerson’s nonfiction stand out:
  "When you can apply narrative energy to a sweeping history like the one that Wilkerson does here, you know, tracing the great migration... it's amazing." — Gilbert Cruz (23:51)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:37 — Why now? Rationale for creating the list
• 04:44 — How the participant pool was chosen
• 06:29 — Survey methodology and vote tallying
• 08:04 — Genre approach: fiction, nonfiction, poetry, etc.
• 09:26 — Did recency bias affect results?
• 10:16 — Reader poll vs. Book Review poll results
• 12:13 — The Corrections and Franzen/Oprah controversy
• 17:01 — The Known World and its unique historical angle
• 19:36 — Wolf Hall — why Mantel’s Cromwell endures
• 21:32 — Septology, translation, and Nobel buzz
• 23:25 — The Warmth of Other Suns, narrative nonfiction
• 26:07 — Ferrante’s My Brilliant Friend takes #1

Tone and Style

The conversational tone is enthusiastic, open to debate, at times irreverent—Cruz and Navadar blend serious literary exploration with accessible, even humorous asides (e.g., the “slightly hilarious” recounting of Franzen’s Oprah feud). Listener engagement is foregrounded, emphasizing the community-building aim of both the podcast and the NYT list.

Conclusion

This episode is a rich, energetic exploration of literature’s shifting canon, full of passionate opinions and inside stories from the world of books. Whether you’re a lover of Ferrante’s Neapolitan Quartet or a defender of overlooked works, the discussion recognizes the subjectivity and excitement inherent in list-making—an invitation to celebrate, debate, and (re)discover the most powerful stories shaping the 21st century.