Podcast Summary: All Of It (WNYC)

Episode: Why Is This Passover Different From Other Passovers?

Date: April 18, 2024
Host: Kusha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Rabbi Matt Green, Associate Rabbi of Congregation Beth Elohim, Park Slope, Brooklyn

Overview

This episode explores how the Jewish holiday of Passover, a story of liberation and justice, resonates differently in 2024 against the backdrop of the Israel–Hamas conflict and its wider repercussions. Host Kusha Navadar and Rabbi Matt Green discuss how longstanding rituals take on new meaning as Jewish families contemplate freedom, justice, and their own roles in the world amidst ongoing violence and humanitarian crises.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Meaning of Passover in 2024

• Context: Passover commemorates the liberation of Jews from slavery in Egypt. This year, the holiday coincides with intense reflection on freedom and justice due to the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas, and the suffering of both Israelis (hostages) and Palestinians (blockaded, starving).
• Rabbi Green: “This holiday that's all about freedom and liberation, topics that should be so easy, maybe never were, but are especially not right now.” (03:22)
• Layered Grief: Rabbi Green notes that celebration is challenged by the continued captivity of Israeli hostages and by the acute suffering of Palestinians, highlighting the intertwined destinies of all people in the region.

2. Interpretation and Dialogue at the Seder Table

• Multiplicity of Meaning: Passover Seders traditionally encourage debate, questioning, and personal interpretation.
• Core Ritual: The Haggadah is intentionally layered with interpretations instead of focusing solely on the biblical narrative. The omission of Moses’ name is noted as emblematic of the holiday’s rabbinic, interpretive tradition. (05:47)
• Encouraging Empathy: Each participant is called to imagine themselves as having been freed from slavery, expanding compassion even for those whose ancestors did not experience direct oppression.

3. Integrating Complex Realities into Ritual

• Addressing Current Events Early: Rabbi Green suggests acknowledging current events (e.g., Gaza crisis) at the very start of the Seder—specifically when reciting “let all who are hungry come and eat”—to ease tension and grant permission for open or, if needed, compartmentalized conversation. (08:46)
  • "If you just set the stage toward the beginning of the Seder, it's going to be okay. We're going to talk about this. We might disagree, but we're going to love each other anyway." (09:13)
• Symbolic Additions:
  • Olive on the Seder Plate—A nod to Palestinian agriculture and the universal symbol for peace, intended to incite reflection on coexistence and peace-building. Eating and spitting out the pit can symbolize rejecting injustice. (09:46)
  • Elijah’s Cup and Opening the Door—A moment to pause and reflect on what a messianic age or lasting peace would mean, and how individuals might open a door to that future. (11:19)

4. Navigating Political Differences in Family Seders

• Listener Michelle’s Call: Expresses anxiety about converging divergent political views within the family, asking for guidance on “how to broach this.” (13:19)
• Rabbi Green’s Advice: Approaching with humility, leading with the phrase “I don’t know” (Talmudic advice), and prioritizing love and the collective search for meaning over any agenda to change minds. (15:11)
  • "Anyone approaching a conversation like Israel, Palestine, especially at a Seder when emotions might be all over the place... it's really important to just say that we're approaching this moment with humility and love." (15:30)
  • "Teach your tongue to say, I don't know." – Quoting the Talmud (16:49)

5. Re-examining Traditional Sayings and Endings

• Listener Marsha’s Call: Shares her tradition of reflecting not only on being enslaved but also on the idea of “enslaving others” as the Seder’s starting point. She questions the traditional ending phrase “Next year in Jerusalem,” which feels fraught in the current context and proposes adding “together with Palestinians.” (18:23)
• Rabbi Green’s Response: Encourages exploring Jerusalem as both a physical and metaphorical place—a symbol of ‘shalom’ (peace/wholeness). Suggests adapting the phrase to “next year in Jerusalem, together with all those who call it home” or “for all peoples,” acknowledging that the “unwieldiness” of changing rituals is itself meaningful. (19:54)
  • "Jerusalem is a place and Jerusalem is an idea... and so I would encourage you to think about that as you say those words." (20:30)
  • "The unwieldiness of it is precisely the point. We're creating something new." (21:33)

6. Rituals for Compassion and Justice

• Listener Mari’s Call: Points out the symbolism in (a) the “spilling of wine” during the recitation of the plagues, reinforcing the lesson not to rejoice in others’ suffering—even for one’s oppressors, and (b) three matzos being separately covered but on the same plate, inferred as an allegory for unity in diversity. (22:00)
• Rabbi Green’s Thoughts:
  • Seder features a “tug and pull” between remembering oppression and celebrating freedom. These emotions and rituals co-exist and can encourage greater awareness or restraint.
  • The hidden afikomen is seen as a metaphor for liberation that can feel distant or concealed, resonating powerfully this year. (23:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Freedom feels tricky for us. Feeling liberated, feeling comfortable with the idea of freedom, is also quite tricky for us and painful.”
  —Rabbi Matt Green (03:27)

• “The Seder is devoted to a rabbinic conversation and debate about what is the story all about… interpretation itself is really at the core of the central text.”
  —Rabbi Matt Green (05:54)

• “We might disagree, but we're going to love each other anyway. We're going to get through this Seder and hopefully find some meaning together.”
  —Rabbi Matt Green (09:13)

• "Teach your tongue to say, 'I don't know'."
  —Rabbi Matt Green quoting Talmud (16:49)

• “Jerusalem is a place and Jerusalem is an idea... the unwieldiness of it is precisely the point.”
  —Rabbi Matt Green (20:30, 21:33)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:22: Rabbi Green on why this year’s Passover feels different: freedom and liberation amid layered sorrow
• 05:47: Interpretation as the spiritual and communal core of Passover
• 08:46: Practical guidance on addressing conflict and justice early in the Seder
• 09:46: Adding an olive to the Seder plate—symbolism and application
• 11:19: The Elijah ritual—reflection on the messianic age and peace
• 13:19: Michelle from Queens on managing political differences at the Seder
• 15:11: Rabbi Green’s advice: lead with humility, “I don’t know”
• 18:23: Marsha in Brooklyn on including reflections on “enslaving others” and reworking “Next year in Jerusalem”
• 20:30: Jerusalem as place and metaphor; adapting the ritual
• 22:00: Mari in Pine Bush discusses the plagues, wine-spilling, and matzos as predictors of unity amid diversity
• 23:54: Afikomen as a new interpretive symbol for hidden liberation

Conclusion

This episode frames Passover not only as a commemoration of ancient liberation but as a living ritual that must grapple with complexity, heartbreak, and hope. By highlighting practice, humility, and the necessity of dialogue—between and within families, and traditions—the program offers pathways for meaningful observance even (and especially) in fractured times. It affirms the value of evolving ritual to reflect who we are, and who we hope to become.