Rabbi Matt Green (2:55)

Thank you so much for having me. For the reasons that you just mentioned, it is so important to have this conversation right now. Thank you.

Kusha Navadar (3:03)

Absolutely. And we're so thrilled to have you here to have that conversation and help us and to lead us through it. And, Rabbi, so, you know, we're starting this segment with a question. How is this Passover different from other Passovers? Do you have a broad brush answer to that question?

Rabbi Matt Green (3:22)

Yeah. I mean, look, every Passover, we say some version of Avadim, meaning we were slaves and now we are free. Right. This whole holiday is devoted to the memory of our ancestors, both mythic and real, and their freedom, first their enslavement, and then their freedom from slavery. But right now, freedom feels tricky for us. Feeling liberated, feeling comfortable with the idea of freedom, is also quite tricky for us and painful. I mean, most obviously, today there are still fellow Jews who are not free, who are still held hostage in Gaza. And of course, that grief and anger and fear about the hostages is compounded by the grief and anger and fear we feel as Jews and as human beings about Palestinians in Gaza who are also very much not free. And for various reasons, we are aware of their liberation intertwined with ours. And so at its most basic level, this holiday that's all about freedom and liberation, topics that should be so easy, maybe never were, but are especially not right now. And I think this holiday is always devoted to questions. Right now, many people have huge questions about their role in the world, their Jewish identities, and how that, I guess, meshes with their human identities, their sort of humanity, their universalism versus their particularism. And it's worth mentioning that at this holiday, the custom is to gather together with your families around a table, where presumably many families include people who disagree with each other. So it's really a perfect storm for us right now, thinking through how to make sense of this holiday outright and also thinking through how to make it meaningful right now.

Kusha Navadar (5:18)

You know, I've been invited and have been lucky and delighted to join four or five Seders in my life through my Jewish friends and loved ones. And something that's always resonated with me is the importance of interpretation in the holiday, like interpreting our own feelings, interpreting the holiday itself. Where in the Seder do we see that interpretation is part of. Of the process? And how is that emphasis on interpretation so important to the character of Judaism?

Rabbi Matt Green (5:47)

So the Seder itself, though you might think it's all about the story of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt is actually mostly devoted to rabbinic interpretations and metaphors and symbols of that story. For instance, you might be surprised to learn that Moses name never appears in the Haggadah in the central text of the Seder. And that's largely because the Seder is devoted to a rabbinic conversation and debate about what is the story all about. It's not actually about the specific story. And so interpretation itself is really at the core of the central text. And that provides an invitation to everyone gathered at the Seder table to offer their own interpretations. And so many people will be gathering with haggadot, with these books that guide you through the Seder that are already interpretations of the traditional text. But even the traditional text itself, with just the Hebrew and the English translation, offers many opportunities for people around the table to offer their own take. And I guess I'd say one specific part of. Or, you know, one. One specific thing about why that's important is that according to the Mishnah, according to our earliest rabbinic texts, every one of us is supposed to see ourselves as though we were freed from slavery, and we mostly weren't. Most American Jews, certainly, and most Jews around the world don't have experiences with oppression like that. And yet we are supposed to interpret this text as though we were trying to have empathy with that experience of being oppressed and enslaved. So it is really all about interpretation, listeners.

Kusha Navadar (7:32)

We're talking about Passover, which starts on Monday night, and specifically how some of the holiday's lessons and traditions resonate this year, given the deeply entrenched conflict in Israel and Gaza. So how are you planning to address this complex intersection of faith, of Jewish identity, and violent conflict at your Seder table? We want to hear from you. Give us a call at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Or you can tell our social channels. Hit us up on Instagram or X. We're all of it wnyc. You could also tell us what lessons from the Passover story you've been thinking about as they relate to the situation in the Middle East. Or maybe you need some advice for navigating what might be for your loved ones a particularly challenging Passover, as Rabbi Matt Green was just alluding to. He was here with us to help us take your calls. It's 212-433-9692. So, Rabbi Green, you mentioned that you had some practical people organizing their seders who might want to address some of this difficult context directly as a part of their observance of Passover. Let's get into it right now. What are those tips?

Rabbi Matt Green (8:46)

Well, the first thing to say is, though, we've been speaking about freedom and there's so much more to say, and we can unpack it if there's time. There's also this notion at the beginning of the Seder of let all who are hungry come and eat. And in this moment, we are particularly aware of Gazans especially, who really are on the edge of starvation and are in deep fear about not only where, if you know where they're going to spend the night or if they will be safe to get to the next day, but also where is their next meal coming from. And so I think at that moment, at the beginning of the Seder, when we always say halach ma Anya, this is the bread of affliction. And also let all who are hungry come and eat, we have to address it right then and there. And I think the reason why, to do it, why I might suggest addressing Gaza and Israel, Palestine right at the beginning of the Seder, is that it allows for everyone to just breathe a little bit easier, right? If you just set the stage toward the beginning of the Seder, it's going to be okay. We're going to talk about this. We might disagree, but we're going to love each other anyway. We're going to get through this Seder and hopefully find some meaning together. That's the first thing I would say, finding some opportunity early on in the Haggadah text and also at the Seder, just broadly to say it's okay to talk about this, or in some cases it's okay to not talk about it if you're already accustomed to too much conflict in your family. Apart from that, though, there are a couple specific places where I might recommend pausing to reflect on this moment in Israel Palestine. One being that we typically add things to our Seder plate that are symbolic of different things. We have salt water, for instance, which reminds us of the tears of our ancestors. And this year, I will be adding an olive to my Seder plate, which will be a reminder of a few different things. First, obviously, the olive as a central food food thing of Palestine, and a piece of food that is shared by Israelis in Palestin. Olives are pretty central to the agriculture of that land. But olives are also symbolic of peace, both in the Jewish tradition and more broadly. And so putting an olive on a Seder plate invites that conversation and also forces us to pause, to actually consider what might peace look like and for that matter, if you actually eat the olive, then you can spit out the pit, which is a symbol of spitting out injustice or spitting out hate, or you name it. And the other, I would throw out to you. And I'm happy to offer more insights. I have a whole list that my community will be observing this year, specifically so that we focus on freedom and justice for all peoples. Right now is that one of the central parts of the Seder is conjuring into the space Elijah the prophet. And the reason why is that Elijah is supposed to be a harbinger of the Messiah. The prophet Elijah is supposed to bring about world peace or a time of world peace and wholeness. And so we pour a glass of wine for Elijah, we open our door for Elijah. And I would invite us all toward the end of our Seders at that moment when we are literally opening a door to the harbinger of a better time to really pause and reflect. What would that actually look like? How can we participate in making a better time or bringing about, let's say, a messianic age or simply a more peaceful time? What is our role in it? And can we actually open the door to it as opposed to simply being morose or anxious all the time about having nothing to do?

Kusha Navadar (12:41)

Folks, we're talking to Rabbi Matt Green. We just heard a lot of, I think, very helpful perspectives on where in the Seder you can bring in this sense of acknowled what's going on. We heard, Matt, you mentioned that you're going to add in olive with the salt water as a symbol of peace and also as food from Palestine. And we also talked about Elijah, which I think is one of my favorite parts of Seder. I think whenever people say, hey, Kusha, what do you want to do? I'm like, hey, I want to go check the door. I want to see if Elijah is there. That's what I always remember. It looks like. We have a caller on line one, Michelle from Queens. Hey, Michelle, welcome to the show.

Caller Michelle/Marsha (13:19)

Hi.

Caller Mari (13:19)

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'll be quick. We have a family in Northern Jersey, in New York City, Long island area. That is, some of us are very progressive and some. And I would say left, far left, even. And then some of us that are conservative. And so I think that, like, right on the right, you know, voting Republican, etc. So it used to be that we could go into a Seder or any other type of family gathering that it was. I think it's getting harder and harder to digest the other. The Politics of it is becoming extreme, especially when it comes to being an American Jew. Like, what side do you want to go on and how do we broach this? And then our family is mixed on either side of the politics. So do you have any suggestions of how to deal with. I was telling the person that answered the phone that I have saved up a few questions that I wanted to ask some of my on the other side counterpart relative, and I want to know. I've been thinking about how to word it, what to say. Not to be judgmental, but it's more and more challenge, I think challenging, I think, by the minute with Israel and American politics and Palestine, et cetera, et cetera.

Kusha Navadar (14:56)

Yeah. Michelle, thank you so much for that. I hear you loud and clear. And Matt, I think it's such an important question to ask. Maybe a way of thinking about this are what kinds of questions would be good to spark across those con conversations?

Rabbi Matt Green (15:11)

Well, first of all, I, I want to say, Michelle, I really appreciate that you even thought to ask, because so many of us go into the Seder maybe with an agenda, and we have that one family member that we're going to school and we're going to, we're going to show them, and maybe we're going to change their minds because they're so obviously wrong, or that might be how we are inclined to see it. Right. And, and I think the truth is, and I don't hear that from you at all, I hear the opposite. Like, how do we actually have a Seder and be together when people feel such radically different things? And I think at some point, whoever's leading the Seder should acknowledge that none of us actually know what is right 100% of the time, that anyone approaching a conversation like Israel, Palestine, like this moment, especially at a Seder when emotions might be all over the place, who knows? People haven't seen each other in a while. I think it's really important to just say that, like, we're approaching this moment with humility and love. We want to love each other. And maybe we're going to disagree. Maybe we're going to come away from this Seder feeling exactly how we felt walking into it. But maybe there's a possibility that we can be changed on some level. I mean, one of my favorite rabbinic texts is toward the beginning of the Talmud, where a rabbi says, teach your tongue to say, I don't know. And it strikes me that for a ritual that's all about questions, I think we have to approach this moment or this ritual by saying I don't know. We might think we know we have stories to tell for sure and maybe even there is some common ground to be found. But I think to name that, we're approaching this 3,000 year old ritual with the humility of not really knowing.

Kusha Navadar (17:01)

And Michelle, thank you so much for coming to us with that question. I think it was really valuable. We're going to take a quick break. We're here with Rabbi Matt Green, who's the associate rabbi of Congregation Beth Elohim. And listeners, we're taking your calls about Passover, which starts on Monday night, and how some of the holidays, lessons and traditions might resonate this year and questions you might have about how to approach Passover given the current state of what's going on geopolitically. Give us a call at 212-433-9692. When we come back, we'll take more of your calls. Talk more with Rabbi Green. We'll be right back. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar. We're talking about Passover, which starts on Monday night, and somehow how some of the holidays lessons and traditions resonate this year given the deeply entrenched conflict in Israel and Gaza. We're talking to Rabbi Matt Green, who's the associate rabbi of congregation at Beth Elohim. And listeners, we want to hear from you. What's your perspective on this? How are you approaching your seders? Give us a call. 212-433-9692. Rabbi Green, we've got a bunch of calls here. Let's go to Marsha in Brooklyn. Hi, Marcia Welco.

Caller Michelle/Marsha (18:23)

Hi. Thanks for taking my call. So I wanted to share one thing that I'm planning on doing and have been doing. And then I have a question for the rabbi about something I'm not sure how to do. What I have been doing at each Seder for the last 40 years is coming to the great schlep is what I call it. When we are traveling for two generations so that we don't bring the beingness of enslavement into the land, I stop and ask a question about what else is it that we are looking at or reflecting upon over those two generations amongst ourselves? And are we thinking of not only being enslaved and how to get rid of those habits, but what it means to enslave others and oppress others? And that's where we start the conversation and our Seder. The second thing is this question I have about ending the Seder. It's been difficult Hashanahaba avi Yerushalayim doesn't feel right to me anymore, having lived in Jerusalem, having spent most of my life there. So I'm trying to figure out how to deal with that. Hashanaha ba' a um dimbi Yaharin Palestinim. Should we say standing together in Jerusalem with the Palestinians? And do you have a suggestion? Thank you. And Chag Sameach.

Kusha Navadar (19:51)

Marcia, thank you so much. Rabbi Green, any thoughts?

Rabbi Matt Green (19:54)

And Chag Sameach, to you, Marcia, that is a really important question. So for those who don't know, you end the Seder by saying next year in Jerusalem. And I think for plenty of Jews, that will go with sort of no complex feelings this year. If anything, they might be saying those words more ardently next year in Jerusalem. So many Jews feel even more connected to that place right now. But also, as we know, so many more, perhaps more than ever before. At least not in my lifetime, or at least in my lifetime, so many more Jews are are struggling to say those words or to feel a connection to Jerusalem or to Zionism or to Israel right now. And I guess I'd answer with a pretty classic rabbinic response, which is that Jerusalem is a place and Jerusalem is an idea. And Jerusalem for generations was the place toward which we as Jews directed our prayers. But it was also on some level, in abstraction and embedded within the word Jerusalem is the word shalem, shalom, wholeness or peace, Yerushalayim. And so I would encourage you to think about that as you say those words. But I think what I would say, if you're looking for an actual phrase, and if that phrase of next year in Jerusalem doesn't feel quite right, I really like what you proposed, actually next year in Jerusalem, together with others or together with all those who call it home. That might be unwieldy, but actually the unwieldiness of it is precisely the point. Right. We're creating something new. So I might also say next year in Jerusalem for all peoples or something like that, if that feels resonant to you. But I applaud you for thinking about it.

Kusha Navadar (21:45)

I think that point about unwieldiness is the point. I think that's an important takeaway here. And, Marcia, I just want to say thank you so much for offering that insightful question and those tips. Let's go to Mari in Pine Bush, New York. Hi, Mari. Welcome to the show.

Caller Mari (22:00)

Hi.

McDonald's Employee (22:01)

Thank you. Yeah. We are a family that also has differing views, and I've always loved Seder, and I'm sort of dreading It. But two parts of the Seder that I think might have meaningful interpretation this year. One is when we recite the 10 plagues and we spill a drop of wine to acknowledge that we do not rejoice in the suffering of others. And I think that's a way for us to share and express our grief at what is happening to the people in Gaza and just the bloodshed and suffering of others, that feels very relevant this year. And also, you know, when you have the plate with the three matzos on it, and they're separate, but they're covered together as one. And I think there's different interpretations of the three matzos. Like, sometimes it could be, like, the Levites, you know, the Kohens, the Israelites. But I mean, maybe we can interpret them differently. Like, I don't know how, you know, but that we may have three separate parts of our community, of our family, of our Judaism, and yet we are also covered under one covering. You know, the napkin. You know, we're on one plate. So I don't know, those are just two. Two parts that maybe we can.

Kusha Navadar (23:30)

Yeah, Mari, thank you so much for that. And I think an important element to bring up as well, of what you're talking about when we're. When, you know, somebody of the Jewish faith is spilling drops of wine, is this idea of. That, it's my understanding at least, is that it's even for those who oppressed us. And, Rabbi Green, can you reconnect that to the idea of justice that you brought up in beginning?

Rabbi Matt Green (23:54)

Yeah, I mean, there's a tug and pull throughout the Seder of both relating to those who were enslaved and also those who are free. So, for instance, we eat the bread of affliction. We eat matzah. It doesn't taste good, and that's the point. And yet we're supposed to recline on pillows. We're supposed to feel free. Right. And. And so we could name another, or a whole set of contradictions or ambivalences that are embedded within the seder. But I think both things are supposed to be there. And so maybe it's not just dipping bits of our wine onto our plates at that moment of acknowledging the plagues. Maybe it's really restraining ourselves at other moments. You are commanded to have four cups of wine, but maybe you could have a little less than usual. Or maybe you really make an intention about providing food for others as we are gorging on festival feasts or something along those lines. But I want to lift up two things that you just said actually, one being that for anyone who didn't think deeply about that moment when we dip our pinky, typically into the wine and lose some of the wine to symbolize tempering our joy when others are suffering, I think that is also a great moment for conversation, not to mention a really important ritual to actually perform this year. And just to lift up the symbolism also of those three pieces of matzah. Remember, part of that matzah goes in to be the afikomen, goes in to be the part that's hidden, and eventually maybe children in the group go and find it. And I read this year a commentary by the Svat Emmet, a great Hasidic sage, who said that the afikomen, which is hidden and then found, is actually another symbol of our liberation, that our liberation might feel like it's hidden. It might feel like it's very far away. And here I'm talking about ours as Jews, but also others.

Kusha Navadar (25:54)

Rabbi Green, we're going to have to pause it there, but thank you so much. We were joined by Rabbi Green, associate Rabbi of Congregation at Beth Elohim. There was so much to cover, and we hope that this was beneficial for folks to listen to Rabbi Green. Thank you so much.

Rabbi Matt Green (26:08)

Thank you so much. It was really a pleasure and happy.

Kusha Navadar (26:10)

Seder to everyone celebrating. We'll see you here tomorrow. This was all of it. Have a great day.

Dunkin' Advertiser (26:15)

Hey, hate to do this. Could we reschedule our morning hike? I was just about to ask the same next week. Yes, it's Dunkin original blend time.

Caller Michelle/Marsha (26:25)

Staying at home with Dunkin. Don't mind if I do.

Rabbi Matt Green (26:28)

The home with Dunkin is where you want to be.

McDonald's Customer (26:31)

I'm gonna put you on, nephew.

Rabbi Matt Green (26:32)

All right, unc.

Kusha Navadar (26:33)

Welcome to McDonald's.

McDonald's Employee (26:34)

Can I take your order, miss?

McDonald's Customer (26:35)

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.