'You Got Older' Stars Alia Shawkat as a Woman in Limbo

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You Got Older" Stars Alia Shawkat as a Woman in Limbo

All Of It with Alison Stewart | WNYC | March 23, 2026

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Overview

This episode centers on the Off Broadway revival of You Got Older, Claire Barron’s acclaimed play exploring family, illness, adulthood, and desire. Host Alison Stewart welcomes actor Alia Shawkat (making her New York stage debut as May), director Annie Kaufman, and playwright Claire Barron to discuss the play’s origins, the personal experiences woven into its narrative, and the collaborative process of bringing it to life on stage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Play’s Origins & Autobiographical Elements

• Claire Barron shares how the play’s premise—returning home to care for a sick parent after a breakup and job loss—mirrors her real-life experience.
  • “My dad was diagnosed with stage four cancer... I was dating my boss, and we did break up, and he did fire me within 30 seconds of breaking up. So that is true. Those are the true facts.” (03:09)
• The writing was both therapeutic and unexpectedly quickly staged:
  • “I was literally in the hospital with my dad… Everyone kept telling me, just write whatever you need to write… The first production ended up happening, like, six months after I wrote the play.” (03:38)

Attracting the Cast: Alia Shawkat’s Stage Debut

• Alia Shawkat felt an immediate pull to the script despite never having done theater.
  • “I always like to quote Claire when she said, a play is like a spell. And I was like, this is the perfect spell that I wanted to cast.” (04:23)
• She describes the unique demands and rewards of theater:
  • “How to be in my body, how to be not so hard on yourself and know you can do it again, those kind of things. Yeah. It worked for life.” (04:55)

Revisiting and Directing the Play (A Decade Later)

• Annie Kaufman directed the original 2014 run, drawing on her own grief at the time.
  • “I was getting divorced and my mother had just passed away… This play came across my table and I had to do it because of the family in it… It was cathartic for me to be working on it… I realized… how it is so personal for so many people.” (05:20)
• On returning with perspective:
  • “I feel clear headed… What really I think helped the first time around is the impact that it’s had on audiences.” (05:22)

The Character of May—Rawness and Resilience

• Barron describes May as emotionally raw and honest, not shying away from ‘taboo’ thoughts about illness, family, and desire.
  • “I wanted her to be emotionally raw. I wanted to have sort of like access to her id… It is like a kind of a moment of weakness in her life where she’s feeling really on her back.” (09:22)
• Shawkat connects to May’s avoidance, longing, and the challenge of being present with family during crisis.
  • “She’s kind of trying to escape into fantasy… It’s so hard to be present with your family, especially when you’re like, time’s running out…” (10:39)

Father-Daughter Dynamic & Peter Friedman's Portrayal

• Kaufman praises Peter Friedman’s authentic performance as May’s father:
  • “Peter doesn’t understand what it is to manufacture an emotion…there’s always this really pure core...that just exudes honesty.” (12:23)
• Shawkat discusses the rare depiction of a genuinely “good dad” in the play:
  • “Does he really know who I am? …Does he know the layers of complexity…? No…And then just at the end, she opens the door just a little to be like, maybe he can. And he does.” (15:17)

Familial Illness as Universal

• Barron on the inevitability and trauma of illness in every family:
  • “Illness in your family truly is a universal experience…at some point, it’s coming for every family…You’re just, like, almost trying to come up with…magic rituals to try to, like, help him be okay.” (18:22)

The Relief and Release of Confiding in Strangers

• Shawkat reflects on May’s sudden venting to a stranger in a bar:
  • “A stranger is the perfect place to unload your baggage…If she doesn’t talk, she’s gonna die, I think Annie said to me at one point.” (20:41)
• Kaufman notes the character Mac represents both a scene partner and audience surrogate, learning as the audience learns. (21:40)

Sexual Fantasies & the Inner Life

• The play blends naturalistic scenes with vivid erotic fantasies, underscoring themes of secrecy, escapism, and personal history.
  • Barron: “I was writing these very grounded, naturalistic scenes…then I was also writing these crazy sex fantasies with a cowboy…It feels like almost a symbol for…things I would never say to [my parents].” (23:08)
  • Kaufman: “A big part of this book play also is…going back home and…what are the things that you used to masturbate to when you were younger…we’re watching Mae’s own journey through those sexual fantasies…an arc of how she’s dealing with all of her trauma.” (24:49)

Family Ensemble & Authentic Sibling Dynamics

• Shawkat delights in the ensemble scenes, likening the cast’s chemistry to real siblings:
  • “Everyone who’s seen the show says, you guys seem like a real family…Now it’s just like we’re really…like a jazz band…It’s so fun.” (26:56)

The Intimacy of Cherry Lane Theater

• Kaufman celebrates the recently reopened theater:
  • “It’s a jewel box of a space…A play like this that has so much detail…just allows for that sort of catharsis that theater is so good at…” (28:29)

Hopes for the Audience

• Barron: “I hope people call their parents or their loved ones…And…the stuff we were talking about with desire…I hope people maybe get a little inspired by some of those cowboy scenes. Not in the bad way, but…lift the rock up and see what’s under there…” (30:42)
• Shawkat: “I just feel like I’m getting, like, really worked…This has changed me. Yeah, forever for sure. As an actor.” (31:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A play is like a spell. And I was like, this is the perfect spell that I wanted to cast.”
  — Aliyah Shawkat (04:23)
• “Peter doesn’t understand what it is to manufacture an emotion…there’s always this really pure core at the very center of him that just exudes honesty.”
  — Annie Kaufman (12:23)
• “It’s also like a little bit based on my personality and moments where I am saying things that I shouldn’t be saying…But I wanted her to be resilient.”
  — Claire Barron (09:22)
• “If she doesn’t talk, she’s gonna die, I think Annie said to me at one point.”
  — Aliyah Shawkat (20:41)
• “I hope people call their parents…And…I hope people maybe get a little inspired by some of those cowboy scenes. Not in the bad way…”
  — Claire Barron (30:42)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:09] Claire Barron describes the autobiographical roots of You Got Older.
• [04:23] Alia Shawkat discusses what drew her to her first major stage role.
• [05:20] Annie Kaufman on the impact of the play and revisiting it a decade later.
• [09:22] Claire Barron on crafting the character of May.
• [12:23] Discussion of Peter Friedman’s approach and the “good dad” character.
• [18:22] Claire Barron on how family illness shapes the play.
• [20:41] Aliyah Shawkat on May’s cathartic moment with a stranger.
• [23:08] Claire Barron and Annie Kaufman break down the play’s sexual fantasy sequences.
• [26:56] Shawkat on building authentic family dynamics with the cast.
• [28:29] Annie Kaufman on directing at the historic Cherry Lane Theater.
• [30:42] Claire Barron’s hopes for the audience’s takeaways.
• [31:33] Aliyah Shawkat on how theater has transformed her as an actor.

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is open, vulnerable, and introspective—mirroring the play’s core themes of facing the rawest parts of growing up, grief, and intimacy. There’s repeated emphasis on the universality of loss, the challenge and joy of live performance, and the small, profound ways art can give strength to both its creators and its audience. The chemistry between the guests reflects the family ensemble at the heart of You Got Older and offers listeners both a look behind the scenes and an invitation to reflect on their own relationships and desires.

Transcript

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[Aliyah Shokat]

This is all of it.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. On today's show, we'll talk about a new exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art that looks at the artistic and romantic partnership between Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera. And it's the 50th anniversary of the VHS. We'll celebrate with the folks at the Criterion Channel. That's the plan. So let's get this started with the play you Got Older. In the Off Broadway revival of Claire Barron's play you, Got Older, Aaliyah Shokat stars as a woman in limbo. When we first meet May, she's lost her boyfriend. And because her boyfriend is also her boss, she's lost her job, too. She's moved home to Washington State to live with her dad, who is grappling with cancer. He is played by Peter Friedman. The play follows May as she tries to find her footing and figure out what's next amidst her father's illness, some graphic sexual fantasies and a mysterious rash. You Got Older is directed by Annie Kaufman, who is directed the production when it last ran in New York in 2014. Aliya Shocott is making her New York stage debut in this production, the New York Times says you Got Older is, quote, a gorgeous play and a sharp revival. It's running now at the Cherry Lane Theater. I'm joined now by actor Aliya Shokat. Nice to meet you.

[Aliyah Shokat]

Hi. You too.

[Alison Stewart]

And director Annie Kaufman. Hi, Annie.

[Commercial Narrator]

Hello.

[Alison Stewart]

And joining us by zoom is playwright Claire Barron. Hey, Claire. Hi. So, Claire, what's going on with you in your life when you wrote this play?

[Claire Barron]

I mean, the play, the sort of given circumstances of the play were very personal. My dad was diagnosed with stage four cancer of the head and neck, and I was dating my boss, and we did break up, and he did fire me within 30 seconds of breaking up. So that is true. Those are the true facts. But then there's, of course, like, in the writing of the play, lots of transformation that takes it away from my. My personal life.

[Alison Stewart]

Was it cathartic for you to write it down?

[Claire Barron]

It was very cathartic. You know, I, I, I was writing it sort of in real time. I, I was literally in the hospital with my dad at Ronald McDonald Housing in Seattle as I was writing the play. And, you know, everyone kept telling me, just write whatever you need to write. Like, it takes a million years for plays to be produced. No one will ever see this. You'll be, like, five years older before it ever comes out. And then the first production ended up happening, like, six months after I wrote the play. So it was, like, very.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, my gosh.

[Claire Barron]

Very surprising. Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Wow. Just six months after.

[Claire Barron]

Yeah. I think I had my first public reading of the play in June, and then we were in front of an audience by October, so it was very expedited.

[Alison Stewart]

Aliyah, what drew you to the role of May?

[Aliyah Shokat]

I just really responded to the piece. You know, I mean, I haven't done theater before like this, and I was like, it's gonna have to take something that I'm really drawn to for the idea to work on it for so long and to do it over and over and over again. But I always like to quote Claire when she said, a play is like a spell. And I was like, this is the perfect spell that I wanted to cast

[Alison Stewart]

every night, doing it over and over again. What have you learned?

[Aliyah Shokat]

Imagine I was like, nothing. Not one thing.

[Alison Stewart]

I learned a darn thing.

[Aliyah Shokat]

All kinds of stuff. You know, I don't know how to. How to be in my body, how to be not so hard on yourself and know you can do it again, Those kind of things. Yeah. It worked for life.

[Alison Stewart]

And Annie, as you directed this production in 2014, and it's a decade plus, you're directing it again.

[Commercial Narrator]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

What did you get from the first experience directing this play that was helpful to you this time around?

[Annie Kaufman]

Well, it's such an interesting question because I too was going through, actually Claire and I were talking about this last night. I was also going through it. I was getting divorced and my mother had just passed away. And so we were both in a moment of crisis. And, you know, I wasn't gonna work for a while because I was just in, you know, suffering such grief. And this play came across my table and I had to do it and I had to do it because of the family in it. My family is very similar. You know, Claire and I both come from big families and, you know, it was a way of working through my grief. And it's so wild doing it again when I'm not in the middle of all of that. I feel clear headed. I feel a little bit more. I have distance on it. And what really I think helped the first time around is the impact that it's had on audiences. Like, it was super helpful for me to be working on it, cathartic for me to be working on it, to work through all of that. And what I realized, I mean, when it was playing is how it is so personal for so many people. So I just knew that we had another, you know, I knew we had the gold. We just needed to cast it with gold, you know, and we did. We did.

[Alison Stewart]

What did you want to change or correct this time around when you were directing?

[Aliyah Shokat]

Oh, that's such a.

[Annie Kaufman]

You know, it's so funny because I think when I was in that state in 2014, I was. I don't think. I can't remember a lot of it actually. It was a little bit of a fever dream. Both in my life and the play is also a fever dream. It's May's fever dream. And I think I. So I don't think I wanted to change. I don't think I had that sort of conscience about me. I think I was really, really looking forward to seeing what Alia would do with it. She was, she was like the top of our list. And we didn't think she was gonna say yes. And when she did, we just. I was just really, really thrilled to be in collaboration with her. I've totally admired her work and admired the choices that she's made with her work. So I. It also gave us a little bit of a bump saying, I guess we're pretty cool because Alia Shotgun's gonna do it, you know.

[Alison Stewart]

So anyway, Aliya what have you learned from Anne?

[Aliyah Shokat]

I mean, never doing a play before seeing what a director actually does really blew my mind. Like, starting from just rehearsals, it was more similar where we were talking and Claire and Annie and I just every day, like, breaking apart everything. And it was so fun to rehearse so much because normally you don't get nearly that much time. But then when we actually got onto the stage, I was like, what? How is she doing all these things at once? You know, being like, this needs to come up five seconds later, and then this needs to. And then. And the thing I learned the most, I think overall, which we talked about a lot, was like, there would be a problem, as there was every day many. And I'd just be like, well, that's it. We're never gonna figure it out. I was like, how are we ever gonna get the outfit to get into the thing? And she was like, no, no, we'll build a drawer and we'll figure something. You know, like, there was just always a problem solving because everything is so practical.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Aliyah Shokat]

And I think I was just really like, wow, there's never. She never took it. She was like, no, there's always gonna be a way that's gonna make it smoother, faster, better, and just more cohesive. And it was really so satisfying to see it happen in real time. I was like, wow, she just solved all the problems right in front of us.

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking about the new play youy Got Older. And for new production of the play youy Got Older with actor Aliyah Shoukat, director Annie Kaufman, and playwright Claire Barron. It's about a young woman who returns home to care for her father with cancer. It's running now at the Cherry Lane Theater. Claire, when you were writing, maybe what qualities did you want may to have?

[Claire Barron]

Gosh. I mean, I. I was sort of like, having her speak. It was almost like all of the sort of taboo thoughts, especially around, you know, I'm sure people can relate to this, around illness and having a parent who's sick and parent child relationships and her own sort of, like, yearning for her life. When you're sort of like in your late 20s, early 30s, and you're trying to launch, and it's so hard to launch. And I wanted her to be emotionally raw. I wanted to have sort of like access to her id, if that. I wanted to be, like, inside her. And so. But it was. It was very like, you know, it's. It's also like a little bit based on my personality and moments where I am saying Things that I shouldn't be saying, or. Or you're sort of like, maybe revealing more than I realize I'm revealing. But I wanted her to be resilient. But I also, you know, it is like a kind of a moment of weakness in her life where she's feeling really on her back. And so I was interested in being really honest about what that feels like when really the rug pulls out from under you and you're just, like, so raw and vulnerable, you know, and with your parents.

[Alison Stewart]

How is Mae feeling about herself when she's living at her dad's house? Leo? What is she thinking about?

[Aliyah Shokat]

What is she thinking about? I think, you know, desire. Claire and I talked about that a lot. Just this idea of what you want and what you feel like you can get and what you feel like you can't. She's kind of trying to escape into fantasy. Anything to not really be present with the reality of where her life's at, you know, I think that's something I was drawn to so much in this piece was these beautifully simply written scenes with the dad. Yet they're so layered, you know? And it's like how it's just so hard to be present with your family, especially when you're like, time's running out, you know, and you feel this more pressure. And, I mean, I do that all the time. Like, I'm annoyed with my parents when I'm with them, and then I leave, and then I'm heartbroken because I miss them, and I know they'll be gone one day. So it's just like. It's such a vicious kind of cycle, you know?

[Alison Stewart]

It's funny when you start the play, you're just kind of standing over a green plant.

[Annie Kaufman]

A green.

[Alison Stewart]

Just want to taste. Okay, that. You know, and it's sort of. There's so much subtext in that. Even that little section of the play.

[Aliyah Shokat]

Totally.

[Annie Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Aliyah Shokat]

I mean, that's another thing, too. Working with Annie and Claire, like, reading it. I love the dialogues. It's, like, so funny and real and human. But then Annie being like, everything has these, like, seven layers under it, you know? And it's like such a guidepost where I was like, oh, of course. It all means so much more. And I think theater definitely allows you to reach. You have to reach those levels more than even on camera in some ways.

[Alison Stewart]

Annie, I want to talk about Peter Friedman. He's amazing in this show. People know him from Succession. They know him from Job was off at Soho House recently. He's been in theater for A really long time. What does he bring to the role of the father?

[Annie Kaufman]

Well, first of all, can I just say that I have asked this man to do this role three times, and he finally said yes.

[Aliyah Shokat]

That's all.

[Annie Kaufman]

I'm going to say that first of all, I just have to preface it with this because I'm so. Just overjoyed, and I'm just so thrilled that he's finally doing it, you know? You know, Peter doesn't understand what it is to manufacture an emotion. He just doesn't do it. He won't do it. You know, I feel like Peter is someone who can maybe go in the wrong direction that I have to, you know, steer him in a certain direction. But it's always gonna be so honest. And so I almost wanna say guileless, because I feel like there's a kind of. I know this is gonna sound so weird, but there's some kind of, like, playful innocence that Peter has in the room and in all of his characters. Even if he's playing someone who has a malevolent intention, you know, even if so, there's always this really pure core at the very center of him that just exudes honesty. And, I mean, Claire and I were talking about this last night. I think Alia has it, too. I'm just gonna say one other thing about. Sorry, I don't mean to embarrass you, but I think the other thing that's kind of amazing about the two is that Peter is someone who is. He's a theater animal and he works in television. Alia is a TV and film animal, but has somehow. And I was talking about this with Peter last night, somehow understands theater, and that does not. I want everyone to understand how rare that is. Yeah, that is not a huge deal. And of course, I could give a lecture on what that is, but I won't. But Peter is just. I mean, he just has that pure spirit. He also has a can do. He's gonna do. He's gonna just jump in with both feet.

[Alison Stewart]

He.

[Annie Kaufman]

And yeah, I don't know. The lack of self consciousness, I think, is one of his magic elements.

[Alison Stewart]

Aliyah, how would you describe Mae's relationship with her dad?

[Aliyah Shokat]

May's relationship with her dad? I thought you were gonna be like, what's your relationship like with Peter Friedman? I was like, that. I could talk about.

[Alison Stewart]

That'll be next.

[Aliyah Shokat]

That'll be next. You know, there was this really beautiful article that Annie sent us that was in the New Yorker that was talking about how the character of dad as he's written in the play is a rare character of just like a good dad.

[Alison Stewart]

He's a good dad.

[Aliyah Shokat]

You know, he's just a good dad. And he's like. And something that we've talked about is like, you know, the mother passed away. And this idea that, like, the mother was maybe the more kind of physical, nurturing one. And he was always a good dad, but maybe not there to. I couldn't cry on your shoulder. And he wouldn't hold me if I had a breakup, or he wouldn't know how to, you know, I didn't have to talk to him about my period, whatever, you know, that was what Mom's job was. And then with her gone and now this. He can see I'm struggling, but he's, like, trying to help, but he just doesn't know how. And that's why it's so beautiful at the end, you know, this moment where she asks her father just to touch this lump in her neck. And it's something so simple, but it's so profound, I think. And so I think they, you know, they have a good relationship on the surface, where it's like, yeah, I talked to my dad. He's a good guy. He's always been there for me. He doesn't yell that much. You know, he's like, we don't fight a lot. He's a simple, sweet guy. But does he really know who I am? I don't know. Does he know the layers of the complexity of what I'm processing? No. Does he know how kinky I am? No. You know, all these things about the. That we hide from our family is, like, shame. And I think May is holding a lot and doesn't think he can understand it. And then just at the end, she opens the door just a little to be like, maybe he can. And he does. You know, he holds that space. So I think they have a. You know, I think it's a really beautiful relationship, actually. Even if it's trying to grow, like the little pepper.

[Alison Stewart]

And how about your relationship with Peter Friedman?

[Aliyah Shokat]

No comment. I mean, he's the greatest. Yeah. Everything that Annie said, plus million. I mean, he's. He's so kind and giving and, you know, it's not an easy schedule. You know, it's new for me, and we're doing eight shows a week. And he's just there, always. So much energy, so present, so kind, you know, and playful with everybody. And if, like, one little thing goes wrong, you know, backstage, I'll be like, oh, well, you know, just throw it Off. Keep moving. Because I think sometimes if one thing went wrong, I was like, no, but what happened? You know? And he's like, it's okay. Like, we got it. Keep going. And it's like anytime I'm out of my head or a little too. Like, if I'm nervous or just trying thinking ahead too far, I just look in the eyes and he drops me in instantly, you know, he's just like, I'm here. And I'm like, whoa. Okay, now I'm present. It's like playing. Not present, because I'm. But I'm so present. That's how I'm able to do it.

[Alison Stewart]

We used to see him every day when we leave here when he's doing job around the corner, sitting on the bench, having coffee. He was on the show for, like, weeks after, like, hey, Peter, how you doing? He's like, I'm good.

[Claire Barron]

Oh, really? Oh, my God.

[Aliyah Shokat]

Yeah, he's the best.

[Alison Stewart]

We're talking about the play, you Got Older. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm actor. I'm Alison Stewart. I'm talking to actor Aliya Shawkat, director Andy Kaufman, and Claire Baron. We're talking about their play. Yes, you Got Older. Claire, were you interested in writing about how illness affects a family?

[Claire Barron]

Yeah. You know, I think something that is painful about the play is that illness in your family truly is a universal experience. You might. You might experience in childhood. You might experience in your 20s, 30s, 40s. But, like, at some point, it's coming for every family. I mean, it's, it's, it's. And it's so traumatic, but it's so common. And, yeah, for me, I guess I was 27 when. When my dad got sick and we, we were told he had two months to live. He's still with us today, which is amazing. He's actually in Sicily right now on a vacation with my mom, not seeing the play. I'm happy for them, but. Yeah, so our. Our story has a happy ending. But, you know, it's just. I remember when. When we were in the tunnel and I, I didn't know if he was going to make it or not. I remember just like, you know, I. I would do these little rituals. I was living in New York. My. My family lives in rural Washington state. And I remember every night before I slept, I'd send, like, a hundred healing breaths to my dad. I would just, like, breathe in and breathe out and just think of him and I used to go run the track, and I have six people in my family, and I used to run, like, six. Six laps on lane six. Just, like, you know, you're so powerless, but you're just, like, almost trying to come up with, like, magic rituals to try to, like, help him be okay. And, you know, it's so painful to be so out of control, and it's so painful to lose a parent, I think, at any age. You know, I lost my grandmother when she was 98, and she was a very important person to me. And even though she lived such a long life, and I'm so grateful for that, it didn't change the fact that. But when we finally lost her, it was still just, like, incredibly difficult, you know? So, yeah, this was sort of like my first. One of my first major experiences with illness, and it really. It really impacted me.

[Alison Stewart]

Alia, in the play, she does. Mae doesn't talk a whole lot in the beginning, and then she goes to the spar, and she meets Mac, and she just unloads. What is it about meeting this sort of a stranger that causes her to open up?

[Aliyah Shokat]

Yeah, I mean, I think a stranger is a kind of a welcoming, kind. Stranger is the perfect place to unload your baggage. I think it's kind of like a perfect storm. Like, she. She snuck out of the house, and she had, like, a beer in her, and someone just needed to go high, and she's, like, all over the place. If she doesn't talk, she's gonna die, I think Annie said to me at one point. So it's like, yeah, it's like, the perfect place to, you know. And Mac is such a kind of lovable character, especially played by Caleb. It's like he's such an amazing actor, and it's like. It's just this perfect. Like, he's kind of unaware of what he kind of fell into, you know?

[Claire Barron]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

I wanted to ask you, Annie, about directing the character of Mac. When you talked to the actor about it, is it Caleb? What did you tell him was his role? Like, what was his purpose?

[Annie Kaufman]

Oh, that's such. That's so. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I approached it more like who he is, you know, who he is in this town and what it is that he does and why he's here. And I did say at some point that, you know, I think he can be overwhelmed by the stuff that's coming at him from her. And also, he's a little bit of the audience. You know, he's sort of. We're all hearing this for the very first time. I mean, if some people didn't, you know, walk into the show having read nothing and aren't privy to what's happening on Peter's neck in the first place, they don't know what's going on. They don't know that he's sick. They don't know what's, you know, what's happening with May. And so he's learning a lot of the stuff at the same time. We're learning it, so. And that he can. That he can actually absorb all of that and actually respond is just as a testament to who he is as a character and as an actor. I mean, Caleb is astonishing. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's talk about sexual fantasies. Claire, you're up first. A big part of the stories are these sexual fantasies that May has. It's involving a cowboy, and we see them acted out on stage. Why did you want erotic fantasies to play such a big role in this story?

[Claire Barron]

Yeah, I mean, some of it is just, you know, I'm a very, like, impulsive writer. And when I was, like, in my dad's hospital room, I was writing these very grounded, naturalistic scenes with my dad. And then I was also writing these crazy sex fantasies with a cowboy. And I just have a little bit of a witchy sensibility. And I was like, they have to go together somehow. Like, somehow these have to be part of the same. Same piece. But I do think it's, like, a divide. I'm really close with my parents, but never talk to them about dating. Never talk to them about my sex life. I'm a very sexual person, so it feels like almost a symbol for the ways in which we have this little chasm between us of the things I would never say to them. Yeah. I just, like, couldn't imagine sharing with my father. But the iconography of the fantasy, it's very, like romance novel, but darker and more twisted. Maybe a little more human. But I grew up, you know, reading all those books. We used to go to the library with my sisters when we were, like, in middle school, and we'd check out these romance novels, and the librarian would be like, ooh, that's a good one. And we'd always sort of be like, okay. But, like, there's something about. Yeah. I mean, even that. I grew up in a very conservative town, so something between the tension of, like, not being supposed to talk about these things and then having, like, Alia said, the desire, having the impulse. There's something in that relationship that really fascinates me.

[Alison Stewart]

I Like that the librarian read the romance novels.

[Claire Barron]

Yeah, he did, yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Annie, how did you. How did you want those scenes to feel different from the rest of the play? The fantasy scenes?

[Annie Kaufman]

I mean, again, like, good writing and good acting. It just sort of. It does happen. But I'm just gonna step back for a second and then answer that question. I also feel like. I mean, I think that you'd have to come and watch a bunch of times, but there is. On the set, there is a bunch of romance, cowboy romance novels. Novels that are in the bedroom. There's also, I think, like, a big part of this book play also is what is it like to go back home and be in. Even though it's not Mae's bedroom per se, it is the childhood sort of experience. And what are the things that you're thrown back into in terms of, like, what your desires are? Like, what are the things that you used to masturbate to when you were younger, you know, and also, just the way that we watch Mae turn into a child with her dad, you know, a bit. But I think in terms of the sexual fantasies, I mean, it's a little bit of a game. I mean, we. Tonally, we were really kind of experimenting. I think the first scene. I like the idea that you don't know what's going on and that it's not until a certain point that you start to realize there are, like, a couple of points that you. That are, like, the big one being dad interrupting, but that you realize what's going on. But once you have. Once you understand what's going on, when the cowboy comes back, you want to be able to play with those tropes, you know what I mean? And then it turns ugly. So we're actually watching Mae's own journey through those sexual fantasies. We're watching an arc of how she's dealing with all of her trauma.

[Alison Stewart]

The family comes into the play about. Was it a third? Halfway through. Aliyah, what is it like for you? You've been on stage, it's kind of been you on st. And all of a sudden, there's the whole family. Brothers, sisters, your dad's in the hospital and suddenly becomes an ensemble.

[Aliyah Shokat]

I mean, it's. It's amazing. It's such a fun part of the show. Also, like, when I go out on stage, I say goodbye to my sisters in the dressing room, and I'm like, I'll see you out there. And it's. Yeah. And such. Such amazing actors, everybody. I mean, Nadine Malouf and Nina White and Misha Brooks, too, like, just really, really amazing actors. And it's so. I feel so, like, held. Not to sound cheesy, but it's like. It's such a we. Everyone who's seen the show says, you guys seem like a real family. Everyone's like, you really seem like siblings, because there's something that's tapped into. And also now, later in the run, we've, like. We're now doing all these, like, little things where we're, like, looking at each other, where we're like, oh, my God, Hannah, like, making eyes. Like she's driving us crazy. And, like, just all these things. You know, I have two brothers, and we're just, like, really picking up these real sibling, like, things now. And I think, you know, it's the casting, but also, like, when we were doing the rehearsal, I was also like, wow, this is such a long scene. And there's so much overlap and timing. It's very orchestra, you know, it's like reading it. So fun. And I was like, how are we gonna do it? And now it's just like. We're just really. It's like a rhythm. Like, we're like a jazz band. You know, it's like we're speaking over each other, back forth, over. And it's like. It's so fun because, you know, there's subtleties and difference every night, but just getting to fold into that. It's really fun. Yeah, it's so fun.

[Alison Stewart]

And, Andy, to ask you about directing at the Cherry Lane. It just reopened.

[Annie Kaufman]

I know.

[Alison Stewart]

Tell us a little bit about the intimacy of the space, what it's like to work there.

[Annie Kaufman]

You know, I've loved that space forever. I mean, it's really an historical place. And the stuff that's gone on in there in the. In the past decades is just, you know, their. Their cultural phenoms, you know, And I directed there, but not in the main space. I directed where the. Where the restaurant is now. There was a. You know, there was. There was a program called Cherry Lane, mentorship program, and it was established playwrights working with younger playwrights. And Anne Washburn and I did our first show together in that space. And I've seen incredible work there over the years. So I think a lot of us were a little bit worried about what was gonna happen, what they were gonna do, what a 24 was gonna do, what Danny Raitt and Eloise Linton were gonna do. And what was so brilliant on their part is that they really, really maintained the bones of that theater, the playing space and the relationship the audience has to the playing space, which is everything. And to me, it's like the per. It's a jewel box of a space. And to be honest, I mean, I prefer working in that kind of space over really large spaces, because a play like this that has so much detail and you have to kind of see the whites of the actor's eyes to really. It just allows for that sort of catharsis that theater is so good at, you know, doing. So I love it. I love the whole just, you know, I love the whole deal around it. I love what they have done with it. I love the social aspects of it. I love what they're hoping to do with their programming, and they are doing with their programming. It's a very, very vibrant community space for art, and they've maintained it and then risen, you know, above it.

[Alison Stewart]

Claire, what do you hope people leave the theater thinking about or talking about?

[Claire Barron]

Oh, gosh, I guess maybe two things. I hope people call their parents or their loved ones or their siblings or whoever in their life represents that. I hope there's, like, the. The impulse to reach out and say, I love you. And, yeah, also the stuff we were talking about with desire. I hope people maybe get a little inspired by some of those cowboy scenes. Not in the bad way, but to sort of, like, lift the rock up and see what's under there when they think about, you know, being playful with. With what excites them. So two very, very different. Not at the same time. Don't do those two things. Call your dad. And then separately, privately.

[Aliyah Shokat]

Lift up the rock.

[Claire Barron]

Yeah.

[Aliyah Shokat]

Lift up the rock.

[Alison Stewart]

Aaliyah, what's changed for you as an actor now that you are now you're a veteran of stage?

[Aliyah Shokat]

Oh, no, honestly, I was. You know, I've had some friends come through, other actors, friends who've done plays, friends who haven't. And I think the thing I keep talking about is, like, I was like, I feel like I'm in the best shape as an actor, you know, physically and so. So. But I just, like. I just feel like I'm getting, like, really worked, you know, and it's such a nice feeling when. Because when you're doing film stuff or tv, whatever, you're like. And you're not shooting for a while, when you're about to start, you feel so kind of rusty. And then even after you film, you're like, you're kind of done, and you do a scene and you're like, oh, I'm never doing that again. Whereas this is like, it's like working on the same muscle. Like when you're actually in a gym, you actually, to do it properly, you have to build and do the same thing, like over and over again to build it. And I feel like I'm really building actor muscles in a way that I'm proud of myself, you know, because there was so many things where I was like, what if I can't remember the words? You know? And I'm like, the words, what are you talking about? So it's just like, it's a really, it's, it's nice to see, you know, to see the difference of just from when we started. And I have this, this groundedness in me now that I'm like, oh, this will. This has changed me. Yeah, forever for sure. As an actor.

[Alison Stewart]

The play as you got older, it's running now at the Cherry Lane Theater. I have been speaking with Alia Shokat, director Annie Kaufman and playwright Claire Barron. Thanks for being with us.

[Aliyah Shokat]

Thank you, Ellison.

[Annie Kaufman]

Thank you so much, Ellison.

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