Maisie Crow (3:14)

You know, for one, I developed a really nice relationship with the center for Reproductive Rights. And so when I set out to make this film. There was already a trust built there and so a willingness to let me in and document this historic lawsuit. But secondly, you know, I spent many years in an abortion clinic in Mississippi, and I really, I understood what access looked like, and so I understood how things had shifted so tremendously after Roe was overturned in terms of you had multiple states that simply had no more clinics. And so while in pre Roe, many women were having to travel out of state and far locations because of the declining number of abortion clinics, you had masses of women having to leave states and go very far. And then you had women in medical emergencies who were denied care that they would have received very quickly when Roe was in effect.

Alison Stewart (4:23)

Your documentary opens with a really striking.

Amanda Zyrowski (4:26)

Scene of Amanda Zyrowski testifying before the Senate. As Amanda talks, the shot alternates between her speaking and various senators, including Lindsey Graham, who actually rolls her eyes, his eyes during her testimony. Let's listen.

Alison Stewart (4:44)

Do we have that tape?

Amanda Zyrowski (4:45)

Oh, we don't have that tape. We have the tape. We're going to listen for it. It's coming up. Let's go.

Josh Zyrowski (4:51)

Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, and members of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. About eight months ago, I was thrilled to be cruising through the second trimester of my first pregnancy. I was carrying our daughter Willow, who had finally, blissfully been conceived after 18 months of grueling fertility treatment. My husband Josh and I were beyond thrilled. Then everything changed. I had dilated prematurely due to a condition known as cervical insufficiency. Soon after, my membranes ruptured, and we were told by multiple doctors that the loss of our daughter was inevitable. My healthcare team was anguished. As they explained there was nothing they could do because of Texas anti abortion laws. I was locked in this bizarre and avoidable hell. Would Willow's heart stop or would I deteriorate to the brink of death? The answer arrived three long days later. My husband rushed me to the hospital, where we soon learned I was in septic shock. I was rapidly transferred to the icu, where I would stay for three days as medical professionals battled to save my life. What I needed was an abortion, a standard medical procedure. As a result of what happened to me, I may have been robbed of the opportunity to have children in the future. Being pregnant is difficult and complicated enough. We do not need you to make it even more terrible, terrifying, and frankly, downright dangerous to create life in this country. This has gone on long enough, and it's time now for you to do your Job, your duty and protect us.

Amanda Zyrowski (6:25)

Amanda, at one point in the film, she's asked, does she ever decline an interview? And she says no. Why has she felt that it's so important for her to tell her story?

Maisie Crow (6:35)

You know, after she says no, she never declined an interview. She goes on to say that after every interview and event she does, she hears from at least one person. And I think that that's a really big part of it. You know, not only Amanda, but Samantha and Austin also talk a lot about normalizing the word abortion and everything that abortion encompasses and talking about it with your friends, your family, colleagues, because for so long before we were in this moment, there seemed to be a lot of shame around that word. And so, as all of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit and the ones you meet in the film talk about, they think it's important to just as much as possible tell their stories so that people have a real understanding of what's happening to women and families in states where abortion's banned.

Amanda Zyrowski (7:32)

She's a very strong woman in the documentary, but we see that she's hurting. She talks about how she developed an eating disorder. How does fighting this fight impact her life?

Maisie Crow (7:46)

Well, when I met Amanda for the first time, one of the things that we asked her was what wasn't, you know, what's not being covered in the media? Because at that point she had done a number of interviews and she said, you know, the long term traumatic effects of being denied abortion care, they're hard for people to understand unless they see it and experience it. So when we set out to make the film, we wanted to make sure that we included things like that, and that includes Amanda's eating disorder. But I think in pursuing the lawsuit, in continuing to speak out about what happened to each of them and their different stories, there has been. There's a lot of power in that they are claiming their narrative. And I think that many of the plaintiffs have connected with each other and built a bond. And as Amanda says, you know, this isn't. This is the worst club that nobody wants to be in, but once you're in it, it's really. It's like a family. And there's so much love for and support for each other. And it's really been a privilege for Abby and myself to witness that and to be alongside them as they continue to share their stories and talk about what's happening.

Alison Stewart (9:12)

It's a tough story, and you had to make some tough decisions as a director. I mean, you essentially show the funeral of a child that died after being four hours alive because those women could not get an abortion. What went into that decision?

Maisie Crow (9:29)

We. So you're, you're talking about Halo's funeral. And Halo is Samantha Cassiano's daughter. Halo was born and lived for four hours because she was diagnosed with anencephaly. Samantha, when she learned of the diagnosis, asked what her options were and was given a piece of paper with funeral homes listed on it. So it was very clear to her that she had no options other than to continue with a pregnancy that was causing her a lot of emotional and physical anguish. When we met Samantha, it was the night before Halo's funeral and we were welcomed to our home. And, you know, one of the first things she said was the state of Texas wants Halo to be here. And I need them and everybody else to understand what that means, to understand what that means for Halo, but also for my other children and for my family. And as we went to the funeral and continued to film Samantha's story, we always had, you know, a check in on. Are you comfortable showing this? Are you comfortable talking about this? And she never wavered. She felt that everybody needed to see Halo's face, that everybody needed to hear Halo's story and that people needed to really understand what this looked like on the ground. Her children are still coping with the loss of their sibling and trying to understand what it means to have a sibling that only lives for four hours. And as Samantha says in the film multiple times, she wanted to release Halo and let her go into heaven sooner rather than later because she knew that her daughter would not survive and she felt that an abortion was the best thing for her and for her daughter who wouldn't live.

Alison Stewart (11:31)

My guest is the co director of Zyrowski vs Texas, a documentary. Her name is Maisie Crow. We'll have more after a quick break. This is all of it.

N/A (11:38)

WNYC Studios is supported by GiveWell. When you make a big purchase, say a car or a new mattress, how do you make sure that you're making the right choice? GiveWell provides an independent resource for a different kind of purchase, a donation. Over 100,000 donors have used GiveWell to donate. First time using GiveWell. When you go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter WNYC at checkout, you can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last.

N/A (12:12)

Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection.

Alison Stewart (12:24)

Claudine Gay is gone.

N/A (12:26)

We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's.

Alison Stewart (12:28)

Much more to come.

N/A (12:29)

For part one of a special series we made with the Boston Globe, listen to this week's on the Media from wnyc. Find on the Media. Wherever you get your podcasts, you are.

Amanda Zyrowski (12:43)

Listening to all of it on wnyc.

Alison Stewart (12:45)

I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Maisie Crow. She's one of the co directors of the new documentary Zyrowski vs Texas. It follows women in Texas who were denied medically necessary abortion care and the case they brought to the Texas Supreme Court. By the way, the film will be screened tonight at the Hamptons Dock Festival. The person we follow in the film who represents the law side of things is Molly Duane. She works for the center for Reproductive Rights. And the film follows these women as they prepare to testify for this Texas state court hearing. Basically, what was women's case?

Amanda Zyrowski (13:20)

Sorry, yes.

Alison Stewart (13:22)

What was the case against that was.

Amanda Zyrowski (13:25)

Going to be in the Texas state court?

Maisie Crow (13:27)

So the case that was filed was an effort to clarify the medical exceptions. There was a lot of uncertainty in the law in Texas, and so women were being denied care because doctors didn't know at what point in a medical emergency they could provide care. And as you see in the film, they win at the lower court and then ultimately lose at the Supreme Court of Texas.

Alison Stewart (13:56)

One of the things that's interesting in the film, and it takes a little while for you to reveal it, is.

Amanda Zyrowski (14:00)

That Molly's got to hold her life as a mom, and she's got kids.

Alison Stewart (14:05)

To take care of.

Amanda Zyrowski (14:07)

Why did you want us to see.

Alison Stewart (14:08)

This aspect of her life?

Amanda Zyrowski (14:10)

We're used to seeing her as just a tough lawyer. She's in it to win it. But then you see her as a mom.

Maisie Crow (14:19)

Yeah. You know, I think once you get to know Molly, it's nice to reveal that layer. I think many people who work in this space, I mean, many people who work in any industry and work very hard, are parents, and they're often juggling many things. And so I think it adds more to the humanity of who she is as an individual to see her fighting so hard for women to make decisions about their families and how they want to build their families. And then to learn that she's a mom of two young kids who's, you know, putting them down at night and then going into her home office to keep working and to, you know, talk to potential plaintiffs as she builds this, this legal argument.

Amanda Zyrowski (15:11)

When you were first filming in Texas in the courthouse, what were your parameters? What Were you allowed to film? What weren't you allowed to film?

Maisie Crow (15:22)

We had to go to court and ask for permission to film the lawsuit. And we didn't find out until about 12 hours before that court hearing that we would be able to film. So we really had to scramble to get everything assembled. And one of the requirements was that we had to put the camera on a tripod, and we couldn't zoom or pan or change our shot throughout the day. So we were in Austin, Texas, and very kind of frantically tracked down an 8K camera because we thought, okay, well, if we can't vary the shots, we can at least zoom in on the frame in the edit. So that's what we did. You know, we walked in the courtroom, and before the legal team or anyone else came in there, we had to determine our frame. And we weren't exactly sure where anyone would be standing except for the judge and the plaintiffs. So we really chose to focus on that. And I will say that the state of Texas did not want us to film in there. And they actively fought back, saying that they thought it was a violation of the women in the lawsuits privacy. Now, as a reminder, we were already following the women who were testifying, so that seemed like an argument that wasn't actually in line with the reality of the situation.

Amanda Zyrowski (16:55)

What was Texas point of view in the case?

Maisie Crow (16:59)

This felt like the women in this lawsuit were denied care because of their doctors. And they repeatedly tried to place the blame on the doctors, even though each plaintiff said, it's not my doctor's fault. I could see the sadness in my doctor's eyes when they couldn't tell me what my options were. When they couldn't tell me where to go, I could see the pain on their faces. So, you know, there has not been a doctor sued for not providing abortion care in Texas. Because I think the majority of people recognize that it's not the doctors who are standing in the way of care, it's the state's refusal to define the exceptions. But what they do define very clearly is the punishments for any doctor providing an abortion that the state deems not medically emergent enough. And so a doctor can spend basically the rest of their life in prison, 99 years, get a $100,000 fine, and lose their medical license. And so we're seeing a real chilling effect on doctors and doctors not providing care.

Alison Stewart (18:20)

One of the things the film does really well is it shows a lot of scenes of the women and their families and particularly their husbands. What did you hope to show about the way that abortion bans impact everyone in the family.

Maisie Crow (18:37)

Yeah, thanks for asking that. You know, I think for too long it's been a conversation about women and women needing to speak up, women needing to do something. And I think the reality is that abortion bans affect everybody. And you see that when you meet the partners and the husbands of the women in this film. And I think it's been long felt that men need to join this fight and men need to understand that it impacts them as well. And one of my favorite moments was actually with Samantha's 11 year old son who as his mother is packing, asks her, you know, what is the court case about? And Samantha says, we're going to fight on behalf of other women so they don't have to go through what I went through and what Halo went through. And without missing a beat, her son says, you know, I really support that. I'm glad you're doing that. We don't want other women to have to go through this. And it's really profound to see an 11 year old understand what seemingly many of the politicians in Texas do not.

Alison Stewart (19:52)

What scenes or what portions of the film were particularly challenging for you.

Maisie Crow (19:57)

I think any of the very vulnerable and emotional moments were a challenge. You know, we worked very closely with each of the women in these film, in this film and became very close to them. You know, I consider them all good friends of mine and so to see them suffering and in pain is hard. You don't want to see anyone going through that. And there's a point in the film when Amanda learned that her surrogate did not get pregnant. And we all were, I think we went into that day really convinced that we were going to, you know, Amanda was going to get good news and it was devastating and shocking for all of us when she didn't. And to see her go through the range of emotions of being told that once again she wasn't going to have a child, it was particularly devastating.

Amanda Zyrowski (20:59)

The name of the film is Zyrowski vs Texas. It's a documentary. I've been speaking with its co director Maisie Crow. The film will be screening tonight at the Hamptons Dock Festival and hopefully be screening more times around New York City. Hey Maisie, thank you so much. We really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us today.

Maisie Crow (21:20)

Thank you so much. It's really a pleasure to be on the show.

Amanda Zyrowski (21:26)

And that is all of it for today. Want to give you a quick update. Our get lit with all of it is not happening in December, but we will be back in January. We are going to be reading Richard Price's new novel, Lazarus Man. It's the story of a group of people who find themselves displaced after their tenement building collapses in East Harlem. You can join me and Richard price for our Jan. 28 event at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library at 6pm Tickets are free, but, you know, you should reserve them. We tend to sell out. Go to wnyc.org getlit.

Alison Stewart (22:12)

Hey. The nominees for the Golden Globes are announced. Announced recently. Coming up on tomorrow's show, we'll hear from Vulture film critic Nate Jones about all of the surprises and snubs. And we want to know about your favorite films of the year. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I will meet you back here tomorrow.

Ira Flatow (22:33)

I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.