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- [00:00]
A
Hey, welcome to all Pro dad podcast. My name is Ted Lo and I'm joined today with BJ Foster. Hey, how you doing, buddy?
- [00:07]
B
I'm great. I love these episodes.
- [00:10]
A
Why is that?
- [00:11]
B
Just kind of. We're talking about something a little bit different today. We're talking marriage. And I just love anytime I get to engage with you on marriage because you have been married for 30.
- [00:22]
A
30 years.
- [00:22]
B
30 years when I was 8. You got married when you were 8 years old. And you're just kind of have a lot of wisdom to share. So I'm looking forward to all of that.
- [00:33]
A
Well, today we are talking about marriage, of course. And man, I look back, I look back at those beginning years and, you know, just over the course of our marriage, there's just been so many times where I was like, oh, I can't believe you just pulled that off. But when we got married, we had only been married for a few months and I was 25 and she was 23, bless her heart.
- [00:55]
B
Super young.
- [00:57]
A
But I don't know, I think maybe some guys relate to this. Like, it wasn't this big train wreck story, right? We had these great moments of awesome where we're laughing together. We had great friends, we lived in a cool place. But we also had these moments of awful, especially around conflict, like we just didn't know what in the world we were doing. And we'd gotten this big fight about something I have no idea what. Is not always case with a lot of fights. You just remember the reactions. But I got really, you know, animated about it. We're in this fight and so I just get in my car and drive away and I'm pout and ruminate of all the things she had done wrong and said and all the things I was going to say when I got back. I'm not proud of it, but that was just kind of how I can roll. And. And I'm driving back in to our neighborhood and I see her walking our little dog. And so I just drive past. Go, go home. And later, after everything had calmed down, she said, when I saw you pull back in the neighborhood, I thought you had come to get me. Oh, and it's still. I can feel it in my body every time I tell that story because it was, oh, I wish I just handled it so differently. Why didn't I just go back?
- [02:09]
B
Right.
- [02:09]
A
You're having those moments.
- [02:11]
B
Yeah, yeah. One stands out more than any other. I was the chaplain for a football team and my wife is a flight attendant. Around the time we didn't have A lot of money. So, like, we had a car that had an oil leak and it didn't have any. Any air conditioning, and a car that doesn't have any air conditioning in Florida. And she was driving from Tampa to Orlando to. To work. And so I got on the bus to go to a game, away game, 45 minutes away. I'm on the sidelines, and she's driving home, back to Tampa from Orlando, and she's in the middle of nowhere. And all of a sudden the car loses power. Like, it goes from 70 miles an hour to like 50. And when it happened, when that happened, we had an oil leak. And I kept a jug of oil in the car. You'd have to pull over, put oil in, put oil in. And then the engine would start going again pretty good. So she pulls off the, you know, off the exit ramp. And she said it's pitch black out, you know, nighttime. And she said that the biggest wolf dog ever walked in front of. Walked in front of the car, stood and stared at her. And I like, she said it was the biggest, scariest thing she's ever seen. I'm pretty sure that it was smoking a cigar. And. And finally it's, after staring at her for quite a bit, moves off, and she kind of moves, pulls off to the side of the road. She's trying to get out to put oil in the car. She can hear the thing snarling and growling. So she has to get back in the car, which is hot as anything because there's no air conditioning. She can't get the oil cap off because the engine is hot and has expanded. And so in the middle of this, I'm on the sidelines and she calls me and I don't have a car. And she explains everything that's happening. She's, like, amped up, she's tired, she's scared, she's hot. And she tells me everything that happened. And I say back to her, I can't help you. I need to go back to the sidelines. And she said something to me that I'm not going to repeat on this podcast. And I say back to her, you can't talk to me that way.
- [04:47]
A
Oh.
- [04:48]
B
And she repeated back the same comment three times in a row and then, click, hung up. Yeah. So fortunately, when I arrived home that night, I was thoroughly expecting the locks changed and all of my stuff out on the. Out on the sidewalk. But I look back on that and I'm like, why couldn't I have at least said, gosh, I have no idea. I have no idea what to do, but let me help you think through this. Or something along those lines. Like, gosh, I wonder, can I call someone that can come get you? Can I? You know, I mean, maybe even take an Uber to where you are, even though that would cost a ton. I don't even know if Uber really existed. This was like, you know, 15 years ago or something like that. So, anyway, I look back on that, and I'm like, boy, I wish I had handled that a lot differently, for sure. But the good thing is, is that you and I are not the only ones who have dealt with this issue. So according to YouGov, a market research and data analytics company, roughly 30% of couples argue once a week or more, while about 28% argue multiple times a month. Wow. So pretty big. Pretty big numbers. So this is happening quite a bit. So the big question for today is, how do I handle fights with my wife?
- [06:18]
A
The first thing is we got to get curious, because typically, what we're fighting about is not what we're really fighting about. You're not really fighting about, you know, the car or the situation with the car. She's upset or she's frustrated with you because of the interaction around the car. And so just to really get curious and say, what are we really fighting about? Here's what research says is really going on. You know, again, everybody's. Everybody's different, right? Like, everybody's wired differently. But men, when they get triggered, it tends to be based out of shame. They feel shame, and for women, it's fear. And those two things can get in a cycle with each other. Let me give you a couple examples. A woman says, you never listen to me. That's her fear talking. He hears you're failing, which stirs his shame. He goes silent because, I don't want to hear any more shame. She feels abandoned. She escalates. And around and around and around we go with that. And so the topics change, but the cycle stays the same. You know, it's the same situation. You guys are in the same situation. I mean, that's a perfect example of fear for her. There's a wolf dog, you know, and she's by herself. She's trying to figure this thing out. You're probably there to put the oil in the car most of the time.
- [07:40]
B
Most of the time, right.
- [07:41]
A
Most of the time. And then I don't know if it was hitting shame, but it's a shame of, I can't help you right now. And I feel paralyzed right now. And so I respond out of that shame by escalating instead of feeling that. So what do we do in this?
- [07:56]
B
Well, I can just tell you. I can just tell you 1000% on all of that. So, like, my shame was I'm not making enough money to provide a good car for my wife. Like, she's going to work. She's got to go to work in T shirt and shorts with an ice pack because I can't afford to fix the ac. It barely runs. It doesn't run well. I'm feeling all of this shame. And when she even brings it up that there are these problems with the car, it brings about shame in me. So I immediately get defensive and kind of think, why can't you just, you know, why can't you just roll with it instead of bringing all the shame? I even asked her. I'm like, what. What would have been my. Like, what were you looking for more than anything? Because, like, oh, that's great. I really couldn't do anything where I was, Like, I couldn't. She's like, I was looking for unity. Like, I was looking for you to just kind of say. I was looking for you to kind of like, say, hey, let me join you in what you're dealing with and kind of help me think. Let me help you think through it. Really. It comes back to, she was looking for me to care for her in this painful, anxious situation.
- [09:12]
A
I'm afraid. And when I call my guy, I'm not as afraid.
- [09:15]
B
Right.
- [09:16]
A
I know he can't. I mean, she's a smart, smart woman. I've met her. Right. She is. I'm afraid. And I want my guy.
- [09:24]
B
Yeah. Right.
- [09:24]
A
And so.
- [09:25]
B
And I abandoned her. And I abandoned her because I'm like, I can't help you.
- [09:29]
A
Well, you're. You've already got low grade shame about it at all times.
- [09:32]
B
Yep.
- [09:33]
A
This situation, you should have a huge amount of shame. Right. That's what you're feeling. Right. So we've just got dads listening mostly. Maybe we've got some moms listening too. But if we're speaking to dad strictly, when, you know, there's a cycle going on, the cycle that we can break, our part is that, hey, let's not make her feel afraid. How do we communicate to her in a way that she doesn't feel afraid? Because it always takes two to keep a cycle going, but sometimes one can stop it. And so our. Our job. How do we talk to our wives in a way where they feel safe? Right. That. That's the goal.
- [10:12]
B
And that can be. And that's the thing that can feel hard is if I'm feeling shame, all of a sudden I'm feeling attacked when she's not attacking.
- [10:21]
A
Yeah.
- [10:21]
B
And then I kind of lash out, and then that makes her feel unsafe.
- [10:26]
A
Yeah. Because she's talking out of her fear. Panicking. Help me.
- [10:31]
B
Right, right. Yeah. So we got to figure out a way to team up with each other instead of going after each other.
- [10:37]
A
Absolutely. So what. What do we do? You know, if we talk about what's some action steps. Number one, like we said, get curious, what are we really fighting about? It's typically not a towel on the floor. It's typically not something going on with the car. It's something deeper, and it's fear. And sh. Makes sense if you think about it, because people say, you know, we fight about the silliest things, and then they don't share it with someone else because it feels so silly. But silly fights cause serious damage, and so we have to go, oh, it makes sense. If we're in a fight about fear and shame, of course, that got big. It's not about the small things. And so we got to get curious during our fights. When you've got a little, you know, if we've had the fight, it's already gone. You go, okay, was I doing something that was making her afraid, that was triggering that fear in her? You know, was I feeling ashamed? Is that why I did that? But just to really get curious. And I don't know about you, but nothing feels better to me than to understand what's really going on. And I'm hoping that's what guys are feeling right now, to go, oh, that's what it is about that fight last week. Oh, this is what we keep doing. Oh, this is the cycle we can't get out of. I mean, if people get this, I promise you, and if someone's had to get it myself and teach as this. This is huge.
- [11:52]
B
So do you feel like communication, then would kind of be the number one thing that sinks marriages? Or is there, you know, or is it just understanding?
- [12:01]
A
I think it's. And I think it begins with individual understanding. I mean, people, I think sometimes we overestimate the power of, let's resolve this and let's, you know, talk out all our differences. I think a lot of it is just individual ownership. Let me own my part. What we can tend to do, we understand us, and we see the problem outside of us, and we attack that piece of it. If they would only do this. If she would only. She makes me Feel so ashamed. And you pull back and go, okay, what am I doing to add to this? You know? And I'd like to say, hey, we've never gotten in this loop before, Nancy and I, since the dog incident. Let me give you a story about three weeks ago, you know, 30 years in Write marriage books. So if, you know, if you feel like you can't get out of the loop, you know, chief of all sinners sitting right here. So Nancy had just gotten a new to her car, and it's a nicer car than we've probably ever had. And I said to her, I said, hey, because we just got a new dog. I said, don't. Don't ride with the dog in the car. He scratches everything. I mean, he is demolishing our house. And I was like, just. Just don't drive the car. Take my truck. You know, if you ever do that, just take my truck. And I had been. You know, I felt like we'd had really clear conversation about it. It wasn't in passing. And she's super smart. She remembers everything. So one Saturday morning, I woke up and she was gone. And so was the car, and so was the dog. And she gets up super early to go walk with a friend on Saturday mornings. And men. I put on my walking shoes and I start walking in our neighborhood, and I just start ruminating about this. She doesn't respect me at all. Like, that was a very clear request. She just jumped in the car. I don't care what Ted thinks. I'm gonna go.
- [13:54]
B
So you got a narrative immediately going on, and that's.
- [13:58]
A
That's that ruminating. And you start making your own case. And I'm hearing all this stuff in my background. Like, I know all the stuff in the background going, oh, Ted, this is. You're not. You're not living out what you talk about. Like, this isn't. Okay, stop what you're doing. This is.
- [14:14]
B
Before she gets home. You're having an internal battle.
- [14:17]
A
Oh, I'm having this battle of knowing what to do but doing. No, this has got to be the exception.
- [14:21]
B
But it feels good to feel.
- [14:23]
A
Or I honestly thought, no, this is the exception, right? So here we are, the dog in the car again, her coming back in the neighborhood. So she kind of slows down. And then I just start pointing toward the house, like, I don't want the dog jumping on the car. And I'm pointing toward the house now. We were going to probably ride in to go, we need to get a new host. What I'm telling you what I'm about to do. So she comes in. I'm like, hey, I thought we had a really clear conversation. I'm doing all my things. She goes, you know, I'm so. It wasn't malicious, you know, I thought the dog was going to be scratching at the door, and I was running late, and I just threw him in the car and I just. I just forgot. I wanted you to be able to sleep in. I'm the worst.
- [15:13]
B
I was just thinking of you.
- [15:14]
A
I am the worst. But it's. We get in these loops, right? We get in these loops, we think about our side and we make her feel unsafe. Because here's the thing. When wives see husband being demonstrative with their frustration, we're bigger, we're stronger, and we forget that. And that's intimidating. We're supposed to be gentle and kind and calm. And when we act angry like that, that's scary, right? It's scary just from a strength perspective. Yeah, we can be scary.
- [15:48]
B
I love these episodes. This is great.
- [15:50]
A
Another action step, and this is going to sound overly simple, but that's why it's beautiful, is to forgive. We've all heard of Billy Graham, you know, but here's what his wife said,
- [16:02]
B
and forgiveness is super easy.
- [16:04]
A
So easy. Super simple. Yeah, just do it already.
- [16:08]
B
Just do it.
- [16:09]
A
It's not easy, but it is clear, right?
- [16:12]
B
It's very clear.
- [16:13]
A
It's not easy to live out, but it is simple. Right. Billy Graham's wife says this. She says a happy marriage is the union of two forgivers. You know, forgiveness is so huge. And it's one of those things, go ahead and give the forgiveness today that you're probably gonna need tomorrow, because it's part of being marriage. Like, we're all going to do things, and you're going, oh, I'm going to need her to forgive me tomorrow. And it's not transactional. But at the same time, we all need grace.
- [16:40]
B
Right.
- [16:40]
A
Go ahead and give your person the most grace of anybody.
- [16:44]
B
Yeah. And probably get after it quick, you know, like, don't sit there. And like, that's one of the things that the rumination thing is. Seems like it's just the cultivation of bitterness.
- [16:57]
A
And it is.
- [16:58]
B
And will just kind of drive kind of to be the driver apart. But that's the thing is we can get so emotionally entangled with this stuff, and we can get angry. And then that stuff just seems to grab on and hold on. And forgiveness is. It seems like it's the goo gone that is able to kind of get Us detangled from some of these emotions that would drive us apart.
- [17:25]
A
Yeah. And it's the forgiveness that stops ruminating.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah.
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A
Right. And keeps getting larger and bigger and bigger.
- [17:31]
B
Yeah.
- [17:32]
A
And I would say the last thing is we gotta circle back. A lot of times when fights are over, we think, man, if I go back and check in, it's just gonna start this thing all over again. And it can. So knowing that when we go back, we circle back. We gotta circle back with gentleness and grace and forgiveness. This is where we communicate to our wives who they're living with. Right. This is the moment where we communicate to her, I love you more than being right. Because you could be right. Right. It's not about being right. It's about being. Making her feel safe. That's what this whole thing is about. Are you safe? Yeah.
- [18:17]
B
I'll never forget our marriage counselor made this point that just when we get into these cycles that you're kind of talking about, we tend to just want to move away from one another. And, you know, they. Whether it's they're striking on your shame or they're feeling unsafe and unloved, and it escalates. And you just want to get away from you. You just can't hear one another when you're moving away. And so to always move towards one another. And I think there's no better way to kind of set the stage for her to want to come towards you than to make a safe environment for her. So.
- [18:56]
A
Good. You know, this is something I've learned over the last three or four years about us is I can be very reactive with my words. Nancy said to me once, when. When we're angry, I lose my words and you find yours, and I'm not finding great ones. So what I started to do, I thought, I'm going to get myself out of here so I can not say the things I don't want to say. But here's what happens. I go away, and not only do I ruminate, she feels abandoned. That doesn't make her feel safe.
- [19:30]
B
Right.
- [19:30]
A
Like you did something I didn't like. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to remove myself from you. Right. And so I better really, like, take a break but not drive away.
- [19:41]
B
Right, right.
- [19:42]
A
Right.
- [19:42]
B
So maybe there's times when you. Like, if these guys are there, maybe there's times you get into a fight where. Where you need a timeout.
- [19:51]
A
Yeah.
- [19:52]
B
But to communicate it, like, okay, hey, I need to think. I need to take some time to think about what you said, yeah.
- [19:57]
A
And if you have a wife who's saying, I need a minute, let her have it. Because a lot of times people, if you're a pursuer. Oh, no, we're talking about it right now.
- [20:05]
B
Right, right.
- [20:06]
A
You know, that's my oldest son. Dad, I want to talk to you right now. No, you don't give me a hot second. But it can't be a long time, and certainly it cannot be to make it worse, because that's what I go away. And I would say it harder the first. The second time that I did the first.
- [20:20]
B
Yeah. So I would say, and at night. At night, sometimes you need to go to sleep. I mean, you know, like, that's the thing is sometimes it's like, we're not going to sleep until this is resolved, and it tends to get worse and worse, and you just need a break, and you need to rest and kind of get some sleep. It doesn't mean you hold on to bitterness. Right. But, you know, maybe you let that go. Maybe you let some of the anger go right before you fall asleep, but you sometimes you just. Just need a little bit of rest before you kind of come, enter back in.
- [20:52]
A
You do. And people will say, you know, don't go to bed angry. Yeah. And, you know, to your point, I think I get that, but I think that the letter of the law and that is like, don't let it grow into bitterness. But sometimes, you know, 10:30 at night, we're both exhausted. You can tell I'm old. 10:30 at night, everybody else is in the bed. But it's the thing of, let's get some rest and let's come back and let's try again. Yeah, let's do this better the second time. So this is. I said every time. You guys said. Did you say this every time? This is so important. But it is. Yes, this is more important. No, this is. It is a huge deal. If we can. If we can figure this out. Well, I think it's a perfect time to jump into the pro move like we do every time, and that would be this. The next time you get into. Are about to get into a fight with your wife, ask yourself, am I making her feel unsafe? Because you could be 100% right, but if your actions are making her feel unsafe, then you're in the wrong, and then no one's winning. So it's just a great grid to ask yourself, am I, in general, making her feel safe? And what can I do to make her feel even more safe? Bj I know Elizabeth and Nancy are going to be very glad we had this conversation for sure. Yeah, they'll start texting going. I'm glad they're finally getting it right. So thank you and thank you for listening. Hey, if you've got a buddy that you think needs to hear this, go and send it their way. It helps other dads to find us and it hopefully will help your friend as well. But most of all, we want to say thank you for joining us. We know you and your family will be glad that you did.
- [22:40]
B
Thanks again for listening to the All Pro Dad Podcast. Behind every episode is our amazing team producer Haley Mwat, audio and video editor Buck Buchanan, and production coordinator Corey Wolfe. Allprodad is the fatherhood program of the nonprofit Family first along with our motherhood program imom. We exist to help you love your family well. So remember, if you have more questions than answers, then you're probably in the right place. See you next time.