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- [00:00]
A
Warning. The following podcast is brought to you by dads who are still figuring out
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B
how to fold a fitted sheet. Welcome to the AllProdad Podcast. Hey. Welcome to the AllProdad Podcast. My name is Ted Lowe, and I'm joined today by my friends, Mr. BJ Foster and Bobby Lewis. Together we have nine kids and a whole lot of questions. Guys, as always, good to see you.
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A
You look like perfectionists. Is that true?
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C
No, no, I'm not. I'm not. I gave. I'm sorry. I gave up on that a long time ago. I just have known how fallible I am. It inc. I am incapable of perfection. And I learned that early, so.
- [00:42]
B
That's funny. Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I. I do think I have a high drive for things to be excellent, and I try really hard to get there, but on my bad, unbalanced days, I can get caught up in my head and it can cause a whole lot of stress.
- [01:00]
A
Yeah. Can I encourage both of you right now? Those were both perfect answers. Nice job. That was great. I'm a sports guy. I like stats. I've always liked stats. In fact, when I was a kid, if you were like, hey, What's Ken Griffey Jr. S all time batting average? I would know it. Like, I just have like a numbers brain and I don't know why I have that, but I was thinking about this episode and thinking about perfection when it comes to sports. Um, I found this stat fascinating. Hall of Fame pitcher Cy Young, the guy for whom the best pitcher of the year award is named after, started 815 Major League Baseball games and threw one perfect game. And fellow hall of Famer Randy Johnson started 603 Major League Baseball games and threw one perfect game. And then Tiger woods, who a lot of people consider to be the greatest golfer of all time, had three holes in one in his entire competitive career out of about 5,600 par three tee shots. So 0.05% chance to be perfect. So the best of the best of the best at their, you know, particular sports were perfect, quote, unquote, a fraction of a percentage of time. Just telling you that even if you are super, super skilled at something, you're not going to be perfect at it. And yet we still chase perfection all the time. Like we as dads do it. We do it with sports, we do it with finance, we do it with investments, we do it with DIY projects. We chase perfection all the time because we just think that's the standard. We gotta be perfect. We gotta be great. And it made me think, do you guys feel pressure to be perfect all the time? You said you're not perfectionist, but do you feel the pressure to be perfect? And where do you think that comes from?
- [02:45]
B
I think for me, I've always had to be careful about beating myself up. And you say, where does it come from? I really want my kids to have a good dad. You know, I really want to change some things. I want them to experience a dad that was intentional. And so when I mess up that I see that I've hurt them and I've got treated them in a way or done something that could hurt them, I could beat myself up about it. I can get in my head about it. I know I can't be perfect. I know there's no such thing, but I struggle. I struggle with getting my head about it.
- [03:25]
C
Yeah, I think I did. I mean, I definitely want to be a great dad, but I don't know. I. I don't feel the pressure to be perfect. And I think there's a part of that that was just the way what my dad modeled, like, he never. Like, he loved. I didn't see from him ever, like, a pressure to be perfect. And so I think that following that model, like, just seeing that model, I think kind of helps me to just sort of let it go. It's funny, at lunch, I was watching a couple scenes from the movie Parenthood, and there's a scene at the end where Jason Robards, who's kind of in his 60s, is talking to his son. Steve Martin plays his son and od enough. Steve Martin's supposed to be 35, and he looks like he's 70. Like, he's always had great. He's always had, like, gray hair, but he's supposed to be like 35. And he asked him. He asked him for advice. And the father, Jason Robars, asked Steve Martin for advice. And he said, why are you asking advice from me? And he said, because I know you think I was a terrible father, and I know that you're a good father. And. And so I want to know what you would do. And towards the end of the scene, Steve Martin says, look, who's to say who's a terrible father? Kevin's in therapy. We got called into the school cause Taylor kept kissing all the boys. My son Justin keeps ramming things with his head. My career is going terribly. And the dad kind of comes up to him. Jason Robards comes up to him and is like, you worry too much. You always did, you know, kind of with this smile. And I think when. When I. When I do the wrong thing, when I mess up or feel like maybe I'm messing my kids up, I always think about that. Gosh, you know, like, you worry too much. Just relax, you know, take it a little bit easy. You know, don't feel so much stress about every little thing that you're doing. But it looks like a lot of men are feeling the weight of this. I mean, obviously you guys are feeling other. You know, there are a lot of guys that I think are feeling the weight.
- [05:41]
A
Yeah, that weight that maybe I feel about, you know, being the perfect dad now. I think it just started when I was a kid. Like, I was a perfectionist as a kid. I was the worst person to be assigned a group project with in school. You did not want to be with me because I was not going to let you do anything. Or maybe that was the best reason. Maybe you're like, please put me with Bobby. I don't want to do any work because I had this, like, idea that, like, I don't trust anyone else to do it the right way, which was my way. Right. Like, I. I wanted it to be just right. I wanted perfect, you know, straight lines on all the graphs. And, like, it had to be perfect because then I felt like that was the best. And I just took control over all sorts of things when I was a kid. And I think that kind of spilled into being a dad now. Like, I just want everything to be perfect all the time. Similar to you guys. I want my kids to look back and say, yeah, dad was great. But that's. That's not always the way it's going to work out. And I'm finding that out the longer I'm a dad.
- [06:33]
C
Well, I don't think you're alone, Bobby. It looks like it's increasing because I came across this American from the American psychological association from 2018. They said, quote, perfectionism among college students significantly increased since the 1980s. So that's about seven or eight years ago that they wrote that. Which means the same young people who were in college then who craved perfection in 2018 are possibly now parents and moving into the parent role. So the question is, are they no longer striving. Striving for perfectionism just in life? Are they striving to be perfect parents now?
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B
I wouldn't doubt it, you know, if. If they are. I mean, I think part of the thing that contributes to that is social media. Right. It's a comparison sport. You know, we're always going to end up losing because there's always going to be someone doing something better than us. And the weird thing with social is we compare what we know about us with what we don't know about somebody else. And we compare in our real life with our highlight reel. And so I think social media can put this pressure on at this perfect dad doing this perfect thing. And I'm me today. You know, I got frustrated today. Not, I didn't, you know, I didn't build a water slide, you know, coming out of their bedroom, landing into the bathtub. I'm a loser. So, yeah, I think social media plays into that.
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A
You just described me right there. Because I, I watch these videos. I'm like, that guy built a chicken coop in six minutes using a shoe and a paperclip. Like, he's incredible. And he, like, filmed the whole thing and it looks great. And his kids are running out like, daddy, we love you. You're the best. I'm like, I can't, like, plant seeds in the garden properly. Like, I'm terrible at all this stuff. And so it makes you kind of think, like, as a dad, if I'm not that, am I good at all? I'm definitely less than perfect. And that's not okay. Especially if you're like me trying to be a perfectionist. That's a really tough place to be.
- [08:39]
C
Well, I think I felt that, Bobby, like, whenever I see. It's always a time lapse video that shows some dad creating the greatest bedroom playground in his. Like, they're creating some sort of bed for the kid that's like, you know, something out of the Jungle Book or something like that. And all of a sudden he transforms and he does it in a weekend. Like, the mom takes the kids away from the weekend and he does it and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I can't do that. I'm a loser. But the thing is, like, I realized that there, there are a lot of things, like, I look at you, Bobby, and I think there are things that you bring to the table that a dad like, that probably doesn't like. I, you know, I look at you, Bobby, I'm like, I don't know anyone who takes ordinary stuff that he does with his kids, like going to pumpkin patches or something, like, and like, elevates them, like, does. Adds things to them that all of a sudden turn a mundane thing into a memory. And I don't, you know, like, those are the things that I kind of think we need to keep in mind is that we might not build this swing set or do, but each of us, and this particularly goes out to the, to you guys listening, if you're feeling this way at all, you're bringing things to the table that another dad is not bringing to the table and, and probably perfect for your kids.
- [10:04]
B
It is, it is a good reminder. And, you know, and I'm maybe weird this way, but I believe every dad's their kid's dad for a reason, because that's the dad that that kid needs. And I think sometimes we compare. Just like you say, we're comparing what we know, you know, about ourselves, we don't know about them, and we're comparing things we probably shouldn't compare. So that is why our big question of the week this week is, what is the danger in trying to be a perfect dad? What is the danger in trying to be a perfect dad? You know, I think when we live in this mode of high alert, you know, trying to be perfect, you know, it robs. It robs our peace. You know, we're running on high alert, we're tense, it robs our peace. It can kill the joy of being a dad. You know, we're sitting there in comparison game or trying to be perfect and am I doing enough? You know, am I doing enough just throwing the baseball with, with my kid? And I think it accidentally teaches our kids that they got to be perfect, too. And the danger too, we're trying to be perfect. Who's to gauge if we're perfect? Like, who's, who's saying that? Well, we look to our kids for that, right? And then if they're responding in a way that's not perfect, we get frustrated with them and not because they're doing something wrong, but because it reminds us of what we're not doing right? And it can just be this cycle so many times. I just think it can rob the joy and our peace and puts our kids in a weird spot when we're trying to be perfect all the time.
- [11:37]
C
And that's. I love what you said there, Ted. Just in, like, I don't think we think about that enough. The impact that, like, we're trying to. The fact that we don't even realize kind of some of the stuff that we're doing, we don't realize the pressure and intensity that we put on them. Even, even just something as, so far as, like, boy, I didn't have this in my own childhood, or I had this in my childhood, and therefore, I want to give it to them. And then we have this expectation that they're supposed to react In a certain way. And they feel pressure like, oh, I need to be having the greatest childhood ever so that dad feels about himself. Like, they pick up on all these little things that we communicate so subtly just with our stress and our. Just our body language and just wanting them. Wanting them to experience all these things in a great way, and all of a sudden, they feel all this pressure. But a lot of this is, like, we really. I'm reminded of just the episode that we had of Chap Clark where he talked about the importance of dads getting underneath the surface to our own stuff. Because if we don't tackle our own unhealth and the way that we approach things, there is something that is causing us to want to be perfectionist. What are the things that's causing this? What is driving this motivation in us? We really need to open that up and figure out what it is, because it comes out in a lot of unhealthy ways that has a damaging effect to our kids. So we got to deal with this. We got to figure out, okay, where is this coming from? You know, like, is there something from our childhood that we're trying to measure up to? Are we trying to measure up to expectations of our own childhood? Are we trying to measure up to expectations to. Of our own fathers? Are we trying to measure up to expectations of other people? Do we have some sort of fear of failure or, you know, we're just so afraid that we're going to have a negative impact on things or the legacy that we're going to lead or we're not going to have impact. You got to figure out where this is coming from so that you can deal with it, so you can take the pressure off your kids.
- [13:55]
A
Yeah. I mean, if. If you're thinking, like, all right, who's requiring your perfection? It's not your kids. Like, they're not demanding that you be perfect. They want you around. Like, you're the one that's demanding that you be perfect. But why? You know, I think about this every time I go into my kid's bedroom. Now, this is going to reveal how crummy I am as a carpenter. You ready? We were given this bed, and the kids wanted it to be a bunk bed. I'm like, perfect. I can do that. I got spare lumber in garage. So I just went out and I put it all together, and I was like, okay, well, I think. I think if we do this, I can kind of do a miter corner here. I can get this paint. I can put, like, a pocket screw and my Wife's like, just do it today. They want it tonight. And I'm like, but it won't look great. It won't look good. She's like, I don't care if it looks good. They want bunk beds tonight. Can you go build it?
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C
I'm like, they want functional. They don't.
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A
Yeah, functional. I wanted better Home and gardens. Come take a picture of my house. Bunk beds. And you wanted the Mona Lisa of bunk beds. I know. And so what did I do? I went and grabbed the lumber. Didn't sand it. Didn't paint it. Didn't plane it. Didn't do anything. I just screwed it all together. And guess what? They slept in bunk beds that night. And it has never changed. And it's still weird. The paint doesn't match. And every night I look at it, I go, it's not perfect. And they love it.
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B
That's great. That's a great reminder. Great daily reminder.
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C
They just wanted you. They just wanted something functional. They just needed you and what you brought. And by the way, if I had built that, they would not be sleeping in a bunk bed. It would have fallen apart.
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B
So
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C
you're a better creator than you think. But it didn't need to be a work of art, and it doesn't need to be perfect. They just need you to be present. They just need you to be there. They want you more than anything else. So we need to just kind of relax on some of this and just have fun with our kids and focus on the relationship.
- [15:48]
B
As you guys are talking, I'm just thinking the point we need to make here is to. Perfect is a lie. You know, because there's no such thing as a perfect dad, because there's no such thing as a perfect person. You know, we lie to ourselves. We lie to our kids when we chase perfection.
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C
I mean, I think, Ted, like, I always. I mean, it's always good to strive for better, but there's something incredibly freeing in just knowing you're gonna mess up or maybe even assuming that you're wrong, like. Cause then I think you're. You're just less defensive, and you're more. It's almost like you're waiting for your mistakes to come. And when you do that, I think you kind of see them a little bit more clearly. You see them quicker. You can take responsibility for them quicker, and then you can kind of, like, say you're sorry, ask for forgiveness, move on, grow from it, get better from it, make less mistakes in the future. But I kind of feel like if you take a perfectionist posture on things, then ultimately what you're going to end up doing is you're going to feel the need to justify. You're going to need to feel the pressure to maintain perfection. So it's a lot easier to kind of become more defensive, defend yourself, because once you lose perfection, it's gone. So there's this constant. Maybe even. Maybe you're tempted to cover things up rather than just kind of knowing, you know what. Yeah, I mess up. I mess up a lot. And I'm just looking, what hour is it? Because I'm looking for the next mistake.
- [17:28]
A
Yeah, you phrased it perfectly, Ted. Perfection is a lie. I mean, if, if you've built it up in your head that perfection is all right, I can bench press £500 and I go to try and I don't, well, for one, I'll get hurt doing that. I'm not going to bench press 500 pounds. But, but that's to say that bench pressing 200 is bad and you' good enough. Like, like I read this article where a dad was kind of lamenting this perfection idea. And this was the quote that from the article that stood out. This dad writes, it's confusing trying to be a father in a world where the only options are perfection and piss poor, because I know I'm not either. And I was like, wow, that's really good. Like, you're not a total failure just because you're not perfect. And I think that's a great reminder. I mean, that lie that says perfect is the standard. We gotta ignore that. I mean, what's really true, that if you are doing your best as a dad, you are striving to be better. Like you mentioned bj, then you are perfect in, in your way, you know, And I think that's a good thing to remember. Stop chasing a lie. Stop chasing perfect. You're not going to hit it.
- [18:31]
B
Oh, that's so good. You know, perfection's a lie. Perfect. Perfect is just pressure, right? You're walking around trying to hold this thing. It's just press. It's just so much pressure. You're constantly trying to measure, you know, measure up, how am I doing? And if the measuring up is perfection, there's just pressure for everybody. And I think about our kids when we're trying to make everything about us being perfect and they give us a look on their face that just said that, dad, that wasn't perfect. Or a response that wasn't perfect. Man, we can get really frustrated at the gauge because instead of them just kind of going, oh, that was uncomfortable. They're looking at us going, you're not perfect. And when that's our goal, that's really hard on us. But it's especially hard on them. It's the. The pressure to be perfect is impossible, and it can start to sink you. Right. It can do so much damage to you and to your kids.
- [19:31]
C
Well, I think it's going to end. It's going to make you feel angry and unfulfilled. It's just going to, you know, leave you feeling a little bit. But, you know, I'm just discontent.
- [19:40]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. I watched this in action the other day. We homeschool our kids, and so that means I'm around for a lot of the lessons. And my son, who's a fifth grader, was in the middle of a writing assignment the other day, and, you know, I'm doing my own work stuff from home, and he's kind of doing his school stuff. And so I said, all right, you read the assignment. Just. Just do your best. And about five minutes later, he came back in tears. And he was so upset because he had gotten two or three things wrong. I was like, why are you upset about this? He's like, because you told me to do my best, and it's not all right. And I was like, okay, yeah, but you still did your best. He goes, no, it's not my best because it's not all right. And I was like, well, I get what you're saying, but you can't confuse perfect with your best, because if the only thing that's considered perfect is zero flaws, you're just heaping that pressure on yourself to get everything right, straight A's from now until the history of your schooling is done, and you're. You're just not gonna achieve that. It's very hard to do. And he didn't get it. It didn't make any sense. And as I was trying to, like, explain this to him, I thought, did he learn this from me? Like, did he learn this by watching me complain that I didn't do something perfect? Or did he watch me, like, complain about the bunk bed situation? Like, oh, it doesn't look right. And did he think, okay, well, if. If dad's best wasn't perfect, then my best isn't perfect, and therefore I'm no good? I was kind of, like, kicking myself a little bit under the table, like, I hope he didn't learn this from me, but he probably did.
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B
You were.
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C
You were mad that you weren't perfect as a dad again. Yeah, I know.
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A
I was like, I'm failing right now.
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B
I'm failing.
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C
You're angry at him.
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A
I know.
- [21:23]
B
Trying to be perfect, you know, it's. It's a lot of pressure. It's a lie. It's also performing. You know, we should reject the idea of trying to be perfect because by its very nature, it's performative. And, you know, and I. I hate that. I hate thinking about that. I've had kind of an odd life where I've talked about marriage and family ever since I've had one. You know, Nancy and I had been married six years when I started working full time at our church on marriage ministry, which I look back now and going, that was dumb of that church for offering me that position. But nonetheless. But I was a. I was an enthusia. Enthusiastic little guy, you know, and naive. But I think one of my goals from the very beginning was I never want to say something from up front. Write something where my kids or my wife could go, that's not who he really is. And I think that's why I started sharing all my mistakes early, because it takes off that pressure to be perfect. But I never want to, you know, perform for my kids. You know, I think when we stop working, trying to be perfect, and we admit to ourselves and our kids, hey, I'm struggling. And we apologize when we blow it, you know, I don't think they lose respect for us. I think they gain it. And it makes our. I think it makes our family just closer when we just let it and go, I'm going to stop performing, and I'm going to be present. I'm going to be your dad.
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C
Oh, hallelujah. Amen to that. I agree wholeheartedly. I have nothing to add.
- [23:01]
B
Well, if you're like us or you're listening and you know someone, you know, and you fall into this trap of feeling like you've got to be perfect, we want to give you a couple of action steps, and they all begin with P. So that's always helpful. That's. That's perfect as well. Right? So good. Good job with that. I think, number one, we gotta be patient. Because ironically, I think when I'm trying to be perfect, we're. We're less patient. We become impatient. And when we expect perfection from ourselves, we start expecting it from our kids. And then we wonder why everybody's. Why everybody's frustrated, you know, And I just think that patience is a much better goal than trying to be perfect. It's going to be way better for us and Way better for our kids.
- [23:53]
C
Absolutely. I think it's a little bit ironic that when we go after perfection as dads, the opposite happens. We become more rigid, impatient, as you said. We become short tempered, and ultimately we become the exact type of people our kids want to run from instead of
- [24:10]
B
run towards, run away from instead of towards. That's huge. I think another thing we could think about, another P word that's perfect is to be present. You know, when we are focused on being a perfect dad, where's our attention? You know, it's focused on us, you know, how we look, how we feel about ourselves, how we think other people look at us. And we get into this mental loop when we're trying to be perfect, where we look in the past at all the things we messed up and we're thinking about the things in the future that we want to fix. And around and around we go. And being present is the opposite. It's choosing to show up and not perform. It's just being available for our kids. So I think being present is yet a way better goal than trying to be perfect.
- [25:00]
A
Yeah, I failed at this recently. I was trying to be a good dad and do it all at once. We were watching a hockey game on tv, which is what my son likes. I was trying to do that, but also my daughter wanted to play a card game. And so we were doing it in the same room, and I was more interested in the hockey game, okay. Like, I just was. And my daughter picked up on that. I'm sitting two feet away from her, but I might as well have been 200 miles away mentally. I was not there. I was watching the hockey game. And, you know, she picked up on it, and she's like, hey, what do you do? Hey, excuse me. Hey, it's your turn. I'm like, oh, sorry. And she goes, I wish you would play. It's like, whoops. So presence is so much better. I was trying to do everything right, and multitasking is not my skill. It reminded me right then in that moment that, you know, I make mistakes in this area. I'm not present enough when I'm trying to do it all. And so, yeah, was. It was a wake up call. And so I had to pause the game and say, all right, buddy, we'll watch this in a minute. I got to finish the game. Came back to the game later on, but I. I went back to playing cards and it smoothed things over.
- [26:03]
B
Another P is to be predictable. You know, I think perfectionism, you know, it often leads to inconsistency. Right? You know, when we're nailing it, we're in a good mood. When we're failing, you know, we're in a bad mood. And it's. This puts us on this roller coaster of our own temperament and our own personality. And our kids are going, who's going to show up today? Is it the happy dad or is it the frustrated dad? And just predictability is such a. Such a better goal. Again, I keep saying this, but predictability is a better goal than trying to be perfect because it gives our kids this steadiness, right? And it's consistency of us being, you know, predictable instead of riding the rides of us trying to be perfect. It's just, oh, dad, he's predictable. He's not perfect, but he's predictable and he's steady and he's calm. And we talk about that a lot on this podcast of just remaining calm. And I think a lot of the reason I did not stay calm in those earlier years with my kids is I was trying not to mess up. I was trying to do it perfect when they just needed me to, just to be there.
- [27:13]
C
Ted, two words kind of came to mind when you were talking about predictability. I kind of think consistency and reliability kind of are two of the, sort of the building blocks of being predictable. I mean, consistency over time equals the biggest impact, and so you can keep doing that. And that's a problem with perfectionism, because when it's gone, it's gone. When you mess up once you're no longer perfect and it makes you want to quit, it makes you want to tap out or kind of go, what's the point of even trying? I'm not going to, you know, but if you, if you approach it like, okay, what can I do to be more consistent? What can I do to be more reliable? I think we've talked about this in this podcast before, but in the movie Blended, Adam Sandler is talking to Drew Barrymore's character, and he says, he goes, it ought to be boring how reliable a parent is. It's like, you're always going to be there. Like, the kid just knows you're going to be there, there. And so with consistency, you can mess that up. You can miss something. But, like always just saying, okay, no matter what, I'm going to keep working on my consistency. I'm going to keep working on my reliability. I'm going to keep working on my predictability. And you just get better at it every day. Again, the job of being a great dad is not being perfect. It's just striving every single day to get a little bit better than the day before.
- [28:41]
B
It's good when maybe part of our consistency is we consistently are gonna mess up. The kids go, he's gonna mess up. And then he's gonna own it. And then he's gonna, you know, he's gonna own it. He's gonna. Maybe that's the consistency. They're gonna mess up. Everybody messes up. Now what are we going to do with it when it happens? No one's really shocked. You know, I think that's the thing with the perfectionists is they're shocked every single time that they we weren't perfect. Can you tell I've got some understanding about this? I think this turns into my therapy sometimes. We've done an episode on stress. Now we're talking about being a perfectionist. I need to get one on being something that I'm halfway good at. But no, one of the other things, and this is maybe my favorite p of this whole thing, is to be playful. You know, one of the best ways is to fight imperfection is by being playful. Because perfection, it just takes itself way too seriously, doesn't it? If somebody's trying to be perfect, they are serious. They are on their game. And when we just play, when we stop trying to be perfect, that can be a pressure relief from everybody, for everybody in the house, right? We can just pull back and say, hey, none of us are perfect. Isn't it great? Isn't it great to be in a home where none of us have to be perfect and just let them feel that relief because they're feeling anxiety? We all are to go home safe. We can't control out here when anybody else does, but we can be safe here. So I think that's a good transition for us to jump into the pro move of the week, which is to lean into the idea of being present over perfect. Our kids don't need us to be flawless dads. They just need us to be engaged dads. They need us to be present. BJ and Bobby, thanks for joining me. Thank you for listening. We know you and your kids will be glad that you did.
- [30:37]
C
Thanks again for listening to the allpro dad podcast. Behind every episode is our amazing team producer, Haley Moat, audio and video editor Buck Buchanan, and production coordinator Corey Woof. Allpro dad is the fatherhood program of the nonprofit Family first, along with our motherhood program imom we exist to help you love your family well. So remember, if you have more questions than answers, then you're probably in the right place. See you next time.