Yesteryear with Beth Allison Barr - The Subtext

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Yesteryear with Beth Allison Barr – The Subtext"

Podcast: All the Buried Women / The Subtext
Hosts: Beth Allison Barr & Savannah Locke
Date: June 3, 2026

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Overview

In this crossover episode, historian and author Beth Allison Barr joins host Savannah Locke on her podcast, The Subtext, to discuss the latest trends in the “Trad Wife” movement, the history behind the role of women in the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), and how contemporary pop culture (like the novel Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke) reflects and shapes conversations about gender, faith, and power. Drawing from archival research and personal stories, the two connect the dots from Victorian domesticity to social media’s iteration of idealized womanhood, interrogating the contradictions, dangers, and moments of resistance that define women's experiences in church and culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revelations from the SBC Archives (00:13–03:24)

• Beth’s Recent Research:
  Beth has been exploring "Pastor’s Wives Conference" materials in the SBC archives, uncovering subversive themes in official programming from as early as 1965 and 1985.

  • In 1985, the Pastor’s Wives Bulletin featured a graphic of a woman in the Orans position—suggestive of ancient leadership roles for women in the church.
  • The program highlighted that women’s gifts are independent from their husbands and should be exercised individually, using verses (1 Timothy 4) often used to limit women, instead to empower them.
  • Example from 1965: The program quoted Ibsen’s A Doll’s House, “First I am a human,” reflecting a nuanced internal dialogue on womanhood within the SBC.

  Quote:

  “They make a point in the program that year to say that women's gifts are not dependent upon their husband, but that they are individually, individually gifted and should use those gifts.”
  (Beth Allison Barr, 01:36)

• Subversive Undercurrents:
  These archival finds suggest moments where women within the SBC subtly pushed back against the denomination’s restrictive gender theology.

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2. The Magic—and Grit—of Archival Research (05:21–06:46)

• Personal Connection to Archives:
  Savannah shares her own moving experience reading through missionary Bertha Smith’s journals, appreciating the intimacy and historical significance of such personal artifacts.
  • The archives contain “letters and people’s correspondence” with thoughts that “they might not have really wanted for people to be reading several decades later.” (Beth, 05:51)

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3. Media & Reading/Listening Picks (07:40–10:56)

• What They’re Consuming:

  • For All Mankind (TV show): An alternate history drama (“the alternate history of the moon”) sparking thoughts about historical narratives and alternate perspectives.
  • A Room of One’s Own by Emily Sutton (book): Telling Roman history from women’s perspectives.
  • Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman (book): A counter to “hustle culture” with daily reflections.

• Connection to Trad Wife Topic:
  These themes of alternate histories and counternarratives tie into deconstructing dominant cultural images of womanhood.

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4. Defining and Deconstructing the ‘Trad Wife’ Phenomenon (14:08–29:43)

a. What Is the Trad Wife Movement? (15:20–16:57)

• Arises from social media: "a social media product that creates a beautiful image of domesticity."

• Draws directly from Victorian domestic ideals, reinforced after WWII, selling an unattainable fantasy of home life.

• Historic Connection:
  Trad wives echo Victorian ideals about women as keepers of the home, custodians of religious piety, and nurturers, despite most women historically being unable to attain that lifestyle.

  Quote:

  “The Tradwife is an iteration of that same type of let's make the domestic space look beautiful to make women want to stay in it.”
  (Beth, 16:57)

b. Historical Context:

• Victorian Era:
  Queen Victoria’s family image as state propaganda for home-centered femininity.

  • Advent of the “cult of domesticity”—making domesticity aspirational and godly for women.
  • “It’s during the Victorian era that we start seeing skirts be put on pianos so that they don’t show their legs.” (Beth, 19:04)

• Post-WWII:
  After women entered the workforce during the war, cultural messaging aggressively urged women to return home as men returned from the front, using magazines and new household appliances as symbols of “fulfilling” domesticity.

• Continuity: Each era’s version of “home as woman’s place” is both a backlash against women’s independence and a mechanism for policing gender boundaries.

c. Current Phenomenon and Contradictions:

• Social Media and Christian Nationalism:
  The modern "Trad Wife" movement intersects with conservative evangelicalism, Mormonism, and Christian nationalism, blending nostalgia with anti-feminist rhetoric.

  Quote:

  “In some ways, it tries to curate this life where...if you really want to be a godly woman, if you really want to have a full, fulfilling life the way God intended, then you will focus on the home and look...you can have beautiful clothes and sourdough bread made from scratch and...perfectly manicured children all running in the field of flowers.”
  (Beth, 24:16)

• The "Household Vote":
  Growing advocacy for only allowing men to vote, a practice even supported by some Christian leaders today.

  • “I have been noticing that over the past year, the popularity of this idea of a household vote in some Christian circles...” (Savannah, 25:10)

• Ironic Contradictions:
  Trad wives often build public platforms by advocating for traditional women’s roles—ironically using 21st-century tools and freedoms to do so.

  Quote:

  “...their whole thing is built on 21st century technology, and yet they're advertising what they pretend is 19th-century life... they couldn't do any of the things they do without all of the cameras around them, without having the financial resources... from views and sponsorships...”
  (Beth, 29:29)

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5. Why Voting Rights Matter for Women (30:01–33:13)

• Legal Identity:
  Voting cemented women’s status as legal citizens, making it possible to fight for other rights—like credit, property, and parental rights. Beth draws from Hallie Rubenhold’s The Five to illustrate how, legally, children and economic independence once fundamentally belonged to men, leaving women vulnerable.

• Personhood Argument:

  “The question is, are women human? And if women are human and living as citizens, then women have the right to vote. It doesn't matter.”
  (Beth, 32:37)

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6. The Feminist “Angry Woman” Trope, and Real Feminism (33:32–40:06)

• Hostility Toward Feminism:
  Tradwife narratives paint feminists as “angry women” whose lives are hollow, careers loveless, and families broken. Both Beth and Savannah reflect on how this narrative shaped their own upbringings and experiences.

• Reality and Righteous Anger:
  Beth reframes anger as a righteous response to systemic injustice, not mere bitterness or misandry:

  “Anger against injustice is not a bad thing. That's actually what we are called to do: to fight for the poor, the oppressed, the widows, and women are very often in that category.”
  (Beth, 36:40)

• What Feminism Really Means:
  Contrary to caricature, feminism is about opening doors, not imposing rules:

  “Feminism isn’t about not being a mom, not being married, not baking if you want to... it’s saying you can be who God made you and instead of saying you have to look like this.”
  (Beth, 40:06)

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7. Women’s Subversive Resilience in the Church (41:18–44:13)

• Persistence Against Odds:
  Both hosts reflect on how women in the SBC and beyond have always done God’s work despite institutional barriers, often through loopholes or outright tenacity.

  • Example: Rosalie Beck, a theology professor in the SBC, thrived in academic ministry by simply moving forward in her calling, regardless of the “official” rules.

  Quote:

  “Women have always done the work of God, regardless of the rules placed around them.”
  (Beth, 41:26)

• Modern Tradwife As Subversion?:
  Beth notes the paradox: some trad wives gain enormous power and wealth by affirming restrictive roles but use their platforms to achieve autonomy that contradicts their message.

  “In some ways, the Trad wife actually is a manifestation of that, because...look at me. I'm going to make millions giving lip service to what you say I'm supposed to do. But actually, I’m my own powerhouse out here, and you can't really control me.”
  (Beth, 44:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Victorian roots of domesticity:

  “If you think about the cult of domesticity, it really kind of comes to its own in the 19th century under Queen Victoria.”
  (Beth, 19:14)

• On irony of trad wife influencers:

  “They couldn't do any of the things they do without having all of the cameras around them, without having the financial resources they're getting from views and sponsorships and whatever.”
  (Beth, 29:29)

• On feminism and choice:

  “Feminism is saying you can be who God made you. And instead of saying you have to look like this.”
  (Beth, 40:06)

• On the spirit of joyful persistence:

  “Women who were called to do something got around it and were able to still do. They had more challenges … but...the persistence of women in doing what they feel called to do.”
  (Beth, 41:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:13 – Beth’s archival findings: Pastor’s Wives Conference material and subversive themes
• 01:36 – Women’s gifts recognized as independent in 1985 bulletin
• 02:57 – Quoting Ibsen’s A Doll’s House in SBC program
• 15:20–16:57 – Defining the Trad Wife movement and its Victorian roots
• 19:14 – The “cult of domesticity” and Queen Victoria’s legacy
• 24:16–29:29 – Modern Trad Wife contradictions: social media prosperity vs. anti-feminism
• 30:01–33:13 – Why women’s voting rights matter: historical and legal perspective
• 36:40 – Righteous anger as motivation in feminist history
• 41:18–44:13 – Resilience of women in the SBC: stories of loopholes and tenacity
• 44:17–44:48 – Trad wives as paradoxical beneficiaries and subversives inside restrictive systems

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Closing Thoughts

This episode offers a rich tapestry of historical context, theological nuance, personal narrative, and cultural critique. Beth and Savannah illuminate how the ever-evolving politics of gender, faith, and power in the American church echo much older debates, resurfacing in everything from social media trends to denominational controversies. Through history, humor, and righteous anger, they chart a path for understanding both the perils and subversive possibilities of being a woman in American Christianity today.

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Recommended for further listening/reading:

• America Reads the Bible (The Subtext)
• America’s Sweethearts (The Subtext)
• The Five by Hallie Rubenhold
• Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke

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(End of summary)

Transcript

[A]

Beth, it's so good to see you.

[B]

It is so good to be with you, Savannah. In person.

[A]

In person. We text a lot, we're back and forth, but we have not seen each other in a very long time.

[B]

No, not since my book launch.

[A]

So true. Beth, you have been in the archives this week.

[B]

I have.

[A]

Talk to me about it. What kind of stuff are you getting into?

[B]

Oh, I'm back in the Pastor's Wives Conference folders. So. And they have been really fascinating, especially thinking about what. What is happening at this year's conference and also thinking about how the Pastor's Wives Conference paralleled what has been going on in the Southern Baptist Convention. And so that's what I've been sort of paying attention to this week.

[A]

And is this what you were just telling me about with the 1985. Okay. So for all that, all the buried women listeners, you should all remember 1984 was a huge year for the Southern Baptist Convention when they talked about women eating the fruit first and therefore not being allowed to because of the sin

[B]

of Eve, women could not be pastors.

[A]

So then you unearthed in the archives the 1985 Pastor's Wives Bulletin. So tell me a little bit about.

[B]

Absolutely. Yes. So this is something. I didn't have time to talk about it in becoming the pastor's wife. And but it. Their program was on gifted. And what was interesting, what really caught my attention the first time is that the little graphic that they used in the middle of gifted was it looks kind of like an angel, but it's a woman standing with her hands raised. And if for people who have read Becoming the Pastor's Wife or anything else that I've written, it's the Orans position. And that was indicative of potentially leadership roles in the early church. And what we see women in the catacombs and also standing, performing at the altar over Eucharist and this. And so here we have a 1985 Southern Baptist pastor's Wife program that has a woman in the word gifted that potentially is an oranz. Looks like an oranz. And so that caught my attention and I started looking and I realized the verse that they quoted was from 1st Timothy, which again, 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Timothy 3 are often used against women. And here we find the women using a verse in 1 Timothy. I think it's 1 Timothy 4. It's talking about all of the gifts and that women are individually gifted. And they make a point in the program that year to say that women's gifts are not dependent upon their husband. But that they are individually, individually gifted and should use those gifts. And so that got me really interested in, you know, are there subversive things going on in these Southern Baptist Pastor's Wife programs? And, for example, like, in 1965, there's. They actually quote a feminist play from the 19th century. Have I not told you this about the Dollhouse?

[A]

Oh, the Dollhouse.

[B]

The dollar. Yeah. They quote the Dollhouse and the main character in it, Nora, her husband tells her that she needs to remember she's a wife and a mother. And she says, no, actually, first I'm a human. And then she walks out on the marriage. And that's the quote they chose to use in the Southern Baptist Pastor's wife program from 1965, which is just so. I've gotten very interested in their programs, in their programming.

[A]

And listen, Beth, you know that I'm a hound for this. If I had been able to yesterday and today, I would be in the archives with you pouring through some more things. But potentially, in the future, we will be in the archives again together, because we've been thinking through all the Buried Women season two, which I'm really excited about, and I hope that, yeah, everyone else would be really excited about that, too. I wanted to say that in the absence of all the Buried Women, I did start another podcast, and I started it with another professor that I love. His name is Lisi Camp. He's an ethics professor from Nashville who I believe that you are connected with or know, at least on some level.

[B]

Yes. So I know him through my sister who is in Nashville and her church and Lipscomb University. And so she's been a fan of his podcast for, like, a long time, so.

[A]

Oh, I love it. Your sister's just in the know.

[B]

She is indeed.

[A]

So Leigh and I have a podcast called the Subtext we, which talks about pop culture and different artifacts from pop culture through the lens of ethics, philosophy, faith, and then probably today, some history, because you're going to be on it. Um, but we are gonna put this at the beginning of all the Buried Women, just to say Beth and I are cahooting again. Is cahooting a word? Yes, we are in cahoots.

[B]

You made it a word.

[A]

We made it a word. We are in cahoots once again. And we're gonna figure out something for all the Buried Women and what version two might be. And we also have an episode today on my podcast, the Subtext, and we're gonna be talking about Year, which is a huge New York Times bestseller. Not as big as you are New York Times bestsellers.

[B]

Oh, I think this one's a lot bigger about Tradwise.

[A]

And so I want to talk about that with you on the show today. So thank.

[B]

Thank you for being on. It'll be fun. Yay.

[A]

Hi, Beth. Welcome to our show.

[B]

Hi, Savannah. It's so fun to be here, isn't it?

[A]

So exciting.

[B]

It's nice.

[A]

And you are on the tail end of having a magical time in the archives for the Southern Baptist Convention.

[B]

Magical time, indeed.

[A]

I mean, it is really fun. I remember when we were doing research for all the buried women, People were like, what are the archives like? And I was like, envision hundreds, if not thousands of banker's box boxes that are organized, like, alphabetically sometimes, sometimes by topic that you just got to go through and rummage.

[B]

Right. And they have folders that have letters and people's correspondence and sometimes saying things that they might not have really wanted for people to be reading several decades later.

[A]

Strangers from 2026.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it's all there.

[A]

It is really magical. I remember one of my favorite things that I read in the archives was from a Southern Baptist missionary named Bertha Smith.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She has several boxes of her own. And what decade was she around?

[B]

So she died in the late 80s or early 90s.

[A]

Yeah. So I think these must have been from, like, the 30s or 40s maybe or 50s around there. And we. I was able to find her journals, and I read through all of her journals, and it was just really moving to read someone's personal experience who was doing something that was really new for her time, especially being a woman in the. In that era. And so I really love the archives, and I'm so happy you've been able to spend time there.

[B]

It's been. Been fun.

[A]

So if you are a listener of the subtext, you are going to recognize that my co host, Leigh C. Camp, is missing.

[B]

I am not Leigh.

[A]

You are not Leigh. And this is the first episode I'm doing solo, which is kind of stressing me out, But I'm so happy to have you here with me, Beth, because

[B]

we can do an episode together. Savannah, because we did a whole podcast

[A]

together called all the Buried Women. So, yeah, we have some experience in this area, but Leah's in Washington, D.C. doing important things with important people and just couldn't make this work. And so we're just going to fly solo. And if you miss Lee and you don't like this episode, just know I miss him too, and it's going to be okay. And next week, he'll be back. What we do for an introduction segment in lieu of that, though, Beth, is we talk about what we are reading or watching or listening to. Can you tell me anything you've been reading, watching, or listening to lately?

[B]

I could probably do all three.

[A]

Okay. Yes, you can.

[B]

So, actually, my husband and I started a new show to us, but you've probably watched it a long time ago. But we just started for All Mankind, which is the alternate history of the moon and when the Russians got to the moon first. And that's actually really fascinating. So I've been very involved with that. And I'm going to be gone for 12 days, and he is not allowed to watch it while I'm gone.

[A]

You can't?

[B]

No. So until we get back, I don't know.

[A]

And that, I feel like, hits a lot of your interests of history, but also space.

[B]

Yes. So it was so, you know, it kind of fit more with what my husband was interested in, but he got me on the alternate history thing, and so we were like, we'll try it. And both of us got into it really fast. So. Yeah. So it's really fascinating.

[A]

Okay. What are you listening to or reading as well?

[B]

So. Well, listening. I'm always listening to my history podcasts, so that's always fun. But reading. I'm reading a really good book that is. It's written by a historian, but it's a popular. And it's essentially an alternate history of Rome. It's called A Room of One's Own, and it's by Emily Sutton, and it is the Roman history from the perspective of women. And it's been really good. I really love it. So, yeah, that's what I've had on my side.

[A]

You with your own alternate histories is amazing.

[B]

Well, it's not an alternate history in the sense of, like, this didn't actually happen. It's just doing it from an alternate perspective. And so it's going through those. Yeah. Through the women. And so it's.

[A]

Yeah. Like telling, like, Genesis creation story from the perspective of Eve. Right.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And so that's been really fun.

[A]

Beth, you're so smart. Well, I read this book that we're actually talking about today. It's called Yesteryear by Caro Clare Burke. Had you heard of it before I sent you this episode brief?

[B]

I did because my husband told me about it because Anne Hathaway had got the rights to it, and he was like, have you read this? And that's when I looked it up.

[A]

Yeah. Anne Hathaway and Amazon.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Bought it. I heard before the book was even finished.

[B]

That's what I heard too.

[A]

And the ending was very important to the book. So they were really trusting. They were really trusting. So, yeah, I read yesteryear this week and then I also read, or I'm in the process of reading a book called Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Berkman.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

So it's a book. I go to bookstores in the very old fashioned way and I do kind of buy based on covers. So I'll google it and make sure that it has decent reviews. But in general, it's like if I'm drawn to something, that's what I'll buy. So this was one of those purchases. And it's kind of like a daily reflection thing, but really brilliant and kind of working against hustle culture and optimization culture, where it's like we're constantly having to achieve and optimize and make things faster and better, et cetera. And he's like, maybe you can just be at peace, which is important for me.

[B]

Yes, it is. I'm all for that.

[A]

I know. Same. I think I need to be more for that. So I'm really excited. I feel like both of the books that I read this week, you know,

[B]

when that actually fits into what we're going to talk about with the Trad Wife movement.

[A]

You're kidding me. Oh, my gosh. Well, then, let's start the show. Welcome to the Subtext, where we go beneath the headlines and beyond the obvious. I'm Savannah Locke and I'm missing Lecy Camp. If you like the show, here's your official permission to gas us up, follow rate, and drop a review wherever you're listening now. Five stars. If you're feeling generous, we might even read your review on the show. You can watch full episodes on YouTube and Spotify and stay connected on Instagram at the Subtext show. You can follow me at Savannahlock and Lee Lee C Camp. If you have thoughts, questions, or hot takes, just send them our way in the DMs. All right, everyone. Beth, Allison Barr is here with me today. And you actually asked me to write you a bio for some event you're doing.

[B]

Oh, no, it was, I'm being featured in Good Faith magazine. And so they asked to have somebody write a bio as if they were introducing me at a dinner party.

[A]

And I thought, that is the bio I'm gonna read for you today.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

Yes. Because I thought it would be fun. Okay, so this is what I wrote about you, Beth. Few Humans possess the magnetic alchemy of being both the most intelligent and the most humble person in the room. But if you're lucky enough to know Beth Allison Barr, you experience exactly that when you spend time with her. Your shoulders will drop as you sit with a woman who is comfortable with herself and her voice. Beth doesn't have anything to prove or perform. She lets her work speak for itself. Speaking of work, hundreds of students call her professor as she teaches history at Baylor University. Thousands of women and men across the country call her their favorite author, as she has written not one, but two New York Times bestsellers, which were the Making of Biblical Womanhood in the COVID Era and then Becoming the Pastor's Wife, which came out last year.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

She's a podcast host with me with all the buried women. She is a Star wars nerd. She is a wife and a mom of both humans and canine variety.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Can you remind me her dog's name?

[B]

Zeus.

[A]

Zeus. That's it. I knew it was some sort of God. Okay, off the clock, you'll find her deep in a medieval book, rewatching a Star wars film that she has already seen 12 times, or mowing the lawn outside, which is her favorite therapeutic activity. She is, in short, the rare kind of person who has earned every accolade, yet manages to be completely normal about all of it. She's also remarkably genuine. In a world full of folks who say one thing and mean another, Beth is exactly as she appears, which is perhaps more than her many professional awards, her greatest gift.

[B]

Oh, thank you, Savannah. And you do know me well.

[A]

Yes, I mean, I. Yeah, the. The mowing of the lawn is actually how I envision you on Saturdays. I don't know why.

[B]

Yo. So my daughter has started taking it over some, but she doesn't like it nearly as much as me. I know, but she just.

[A]

Riding lawnmower.

[B]

No, I like to push.

[A]

You're a pusher.

[B]

But it has, you know, it's. It has the power things, the self propelled.

[A]

Right? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. No, I just kind of envision you in the yard a lot and I don't know why. You must have told me a story early on.

[B]

Well, I have my garden that I made that's right outside of my writing desk that I can see out of my window. And it's like this. I love my garden. It's like this beautiful pot garden. And.

[A]

Yeah, it's you. It's absolutely you. Well, Beth, thank you for taking Lee's place today and for being on the show. I want to talk about a book called the Yesteryear, written by Carol Claire Burke. And in this book, a social media influencer named Natalie curates a perfect trad wife lifestyle. And then she gets really famous off of this trad wife lifestyle. And she wakes up all of a sudden in 1855 and has to experience the brutal reality of manual labor and a life without modern technology. So she basically has to taste her own medicine. And it's a really fascinating concept of a book. I do want to let everyone know. I will do my best to not have any spoilers. So what I just said is what you would read on the back of the book. But what I want to talk about is how big of a role religion played in this book and why it shaped her into wanting to pursue a trad wife life. Yeah, and I thought you were beyond the perfect person to talk to about this. When you hear trad wife, what comes to mind for you as a historian and thinker?

[B]

Well, social media, obviously. I mean, the tradwife movement was born in social. I mean, that's really what it is. It's a social media product that creates a beautiful image of domesticity. Now, even though it is a social media product, it's connected to really, I would say, since the Victorian era, when we start in the 19th century, where we start seeing curated domestic sphere for women. So it fits in something that is a part of history. It's just the newest iteration of it. And you can kind of think like the Victorian era, like, we think about the Christmas tree that was a product. Queen, don't think of Victoria, but I love you.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

I think of. So Queen Victoria and Prince Albert had this publicity image of them around the Christmas tree with their kids. And that's like when you start having, like, the decorating of Christmas trees and it becomes this big domestic thing, like how you do it in your house. That's where it all started. And you can also think about, like, in the Post World War II era, when we're trying to get women back in the home and we have Good Housekeeping and we have all these magazines that, like, show you the dishwasher and show you the vacuum cleaner and all of these cool things that makes housework wonderful and beautiful and you wear your pearls while you're, you know, vacuuming. The Tradwife is a iteration of that same type of let's make the domestic space look beautiful to make women want to stay in it.

[A]

Beth, I'm so obsessed with you. You always blow my mind. Okay, let's start with the Victorianara with why did Queen Victoria do this publicity campaign? Like, what was the story behind that?

[B]

So Queen Victoria. So you either really love Queen Victoria or you strongly dislike Queen Victoria. She was.

[A]

Or you don't know Queen Victoria.

[B]

You don't know Queen Victoria. Sorry, Savannah.

[A]

I know. Does Queen Victoria have a cake?

[B]

Isn't there, like, a cake? A cake? Like a Victoria Victoria sponge? The Victoria sponge? Yes. Oh, my gosh. Have you had a Victoria sponge?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It's kind of a weird cake. It has jam in it.

[A]

Jam in the middle?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Raspberry. Okay. So why is Queen Victoria SpongeBob?

[B]

I don't know why she's connected to the sponge cake. That I don't know. Except for that we have during that time. It's also where we start having a lot of cookbooks, like, start being. And women, like. Yeah. So, you know, so maybe it's part. But I don't know about the Victoria sponge.

[A]

So why is she so controversial?

[B]

Yeah. So Queen Victoria was. She became queen. I don't remember off the top of my head, but in the 1830s. And she is going to remain queen until I think she dies, like, late 19th, very early 20th century. So she's queen for a really, really long time. And she was only married for actually a short amount of time during that, although she had tons of kids with Prince Albert. But then she spends the rest of her life in mourning. She wears mourning for the rest of her life, never gets married. And she is very much an advocate for. Despite the fact that she's the queen and she is not fully in control of the government, but she has a lot of power. She is very insistent that women's places in the home. And so a lot of what we think about, like, today we might associate with purity culture, like thinking about how women dress and like, not. And covering up, like, all of their body parts. Like, it's during the Victorian era that we start seeing skirts be put on pianos so that they don't show their legs. And because ankles. Women aren't supposed to show their ankles. And we see this, you know, this. This emphasis on sexual purity as well as this emphasis on domesticity. So if you think about the cult of domesticity, it really kind of comes to its own in the 19th century under Queen Victoria. So this idea that women's place is in the home, raising their kids and cultivating this beautiful domestic space, which in the 19th century is completely unreachable for the vast majority of women.

[A]

Yes. So.

[B]

And that I Think also parallels with trad wives, because what they show is completely unreachable for most women.

[A]

So from your perspective in terms of history, the Victorian era is kind of maybe. Is it the original iteration of this or is it just the most famous one?

[B]

So I don't know if I would say the original. I would be hesitant to say original, but I would say it's probably directly connected in the history with thinking about this emphasis on this cultivated domesticity for women in the home that comes from Western culture and also is connected to faith. Because a big part of Victorian, you know, the cult of domestic domesticity was on religious piety and that women as being the keepers of the home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in charge of educating the children. They were the ones in charge of faith in the home and making sure everybody was, you know, was raised well and knew the tenets of the faith. That was a woman's responsibility. And I think that directly connects to what we see with the trad wife movement today and also yesteryear and also yesterday.

[A]

Yeah, 1,000%. Okay, so then I want to jump up to the second part of history that you mentioned, which was after World War II. Was it when they were trying to get women back into the home? What? Cause I. I read actually yesterday or today when someone was critiquing the tradwife thing as it relates to yesteryear, about how big of a role women played during World War II in business, in the economy, because so many men were off to war. So was it just basically trying to autocorrect from that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, if I can jump back real fast to Victorian era. So this is another continuity, is that during the 19th century, it's also at the end of what we call the industrialization movement, and a lot of had moved to work and were in the factories, and actually a lot of children were in the factories. And it's. And you can think about During World War II, between World War I and World War II, we also see a lot of women going to work into places that had originally been male jobs. And so I think both of these movements are somewhat like pushing back, like actually women instead of being in the workforce, women are supposed to be in the home. And then both of those movements also parallel the fight for women to get full equal rights. And so we see the suffrage movement is born during the Victorian era in the Western world. And then we also see in the post World War II era is where we are going to get what some people, you know, we see not for women to get the right to vote. But for women to get full rights and to not have to have gender discrimination against them, especially like in the workplace. This is where we get Title nine and where. Where women can take out loans in their own name. People don't realize that Barbie got her dream house before women could actually take out mortgages in their own name. My students always loved that fact. That. And then. And so women, you know, women couldn't take out credit cards in their own name. They couldn't do all this. And so we see also in this Post World War II era, women are like, hey, we just went to work. We did all of this stuff. We helped save the economy and save. Save our worlds. We need to have full rights. And so we see the push for that too. And we again, see kind of this. I don't know if it's a backlash, but some of it is a backlash in that the fact that what women are supposed to do is be in the home.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, it seems like some sort of backlash or correction or whatever. Absolutely. A wave maybe of forward momentum that a lot of people were uncomfortable with.

[B]

Yes, that, that. And also that you have women competing for men's jobs. That's a big. That's a big one.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so fascinating. So then that brings us to today with this TradWife movement. What do you make of that? And I know that we, his future historians, will be able to be more clear in hindsight, but what do you make of the popularity of this rising tradwife movement and its connection to social media? And why do you think that it's happening now?

[B]

Yeah, well, it. I think it is. It is deeply rooted in what we would call the rise of Christian nationalism in the US and connected with a conservative women's movement that is rooted in conservative evangelicalism as well as in Mormonism. That argues that. That argues that feminism is sinful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that God. That God ordained roles for women are to be in the home. And so in some ways, it tries to curate this life where it's like, if you really want to be a godly woman, if you really want to have a full, fulfilling life the way God intended, then you will focus on the home and look. And then you can have beautiful clothes and sourdough bread made from scratch and. And have, you know, perfectly manicured children all running in the field of flowers.

[A]

Yes. In the wilderness. Yeah.

[B]

And that's what your life will look like if you just reject feminism, turn to God, stay at home, let your husband be in charge of everything. Maybe even Give up the vote. A lot of people connected to the trad wife movement are also advocate for what we call the household vote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In which. Which is essentially women saying, we don't think women should have the right to vote and it should only be the husband that votes. And so all of those things, I think, are embedded in the trad wife

[A]

movement, which right now I have been noticing that over the past year, the popularity of this idea of a household vote in some Christian circles, like Doug Wilson, who is the spiritual. A spiritual advisor, at least to Pete Heath in their government. So Doug Wilson purports that women should not be able to have individual votes, but that they should have household votes. And that has. Was so. Would have been considered so fringe, I think, 30 or 40 years ago. And now it's kind of becoming more. I don't know if I don't want to say dominant, but I. I have been seeing it more.

[B]

It's more mainstream.

[A]

Mainstream.

[B]

It's not considered. You see, like, for example, I teach a suffrage class, and so I always ask my students what they hear about suffrage or women's right to vote. And they always tell me this is something that they. They know of. They hear. They hear from friends, they hear from family, they hear from their church that there is this movement that maybe. Maybe women shouldn't be voting. Or if they do vote, they should always vote the way their husband votes, because otherwise, you know, I love this. They're like, otherwise it splits the vote. And I'm like, that's not actually how voting works. I'm like, but that's what they're taught. And so it's in the water.

[A]

It is in the water. Yes. And what do you make of that as a historian? And when you think about the suffrage movement, for example, I guess for me, what it strikes me as is very ironic. And we talk about this a lot as we've been doing research for all the Braided Women, season one and potentially for season two of seeing this trend of women like Victoria who have a lot of power that are publicly berating of other women in power.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Or of other women trying to have some sort of power, whether the power is like, through a vote or whether it's like having financial independence or whatever. And I think it's really interesting when I see people who only. Whose careers only exist because of feminist movements.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Be right. The very feminist movements that they exist because of.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So what do you make of all of that?

[B]

Yeah. Even though I haven't read yesteryear, that sounds a Lot like what actually happens in yesteryear is a woman wakes up to the reality of what she has been, of losing all of the things that she was creating, a life that was rejecting. And what happens to women when they actually don't have rights, when they aren't recognized as legal, independent, you know, so I think it's. It's highly ironic when we see women out on social media who build their careers arguing that women should not be preaching, and yet they have social media followings in which they are teaching Bible to a huge, you know, amount of people. And I'm like, so let's think about what preaching is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, let's think about what you're actually doing here. And it is interesting because you will see, see, on their social media feeds, you will see people respond back to them by telling them that, you know, you need to get off the air.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And in fact, you know, we both were texting each other the podcast from Al Mohler, who is the president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, who actually said that women shouldn't be teaching Bible on podcasts this week.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so, but. And that is, if you are going to argue that women shouldn't be in these spaces, that is actually a logical, you know, next step.

[A]

That is.

[B]

Yeah, that. That if you're going to argue women shouldn't be preaching, then I see the logic of saying women shouldn't be on podcasts. I don't agree with it, but I see the logic of it. But so I think, you know, for women who are in these spaces and even like the trad wife, I mean, that's what their whole thing is built on 21st century technology, and yet they're advertising what they pretend is 19th century life.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

And so again, the irony of that, that they couldn't do any of the things that they do without having all of the cameras around them, without having the financial resource. The financial resources that they're getting from

[A]

views and sponsorships and whatever.

[B]

Yeah. The nannies that keep their kids while they're busily.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You know, pretending like they're making bread from scratch. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Okay. So talk me through. Why is it important that women are able to vote?

[B]

Oh, gosh. So I think so. Can I give you another book recommendation?

[A]

Please do.

[B]

Okay. This is like, I teach this book all the time. It's one of my favorite books. It's called the Five. It's by Hallie Rubenhald, who's a social historian. Don't let that put you off. It's it. I'm a social historian.

[A]

I can get in there.

[B]

Well, it's about, it's about the victims of Jack the Ripper. It's called the Five. And I mean, it's really amazing what she does with it. And she goes through what their lives were actually like. And so I have my students read it because it helps them understand what it was like to be a 19th century woman. And in the 19th century, you know, things that they don't even think about. We think about today, like with custody and with no fault divorce, that often women get the kids. Well, in the 19th century, the kids legally belonged to the man. They did not legally belong to a woman. So if you left your husband or if your husband left you or for whatever, he got the kids. In fact, they had to fight for women fought to try to get access to kids that were under 7 years old because they were so young, but over 7, then they would still revert, their husband would have custody, so they would lose their right over their kids. So women were not, did not have a legal identity in the 19th century. Their legal identity was through their husbands or their, their fathers. And so even though they could work, their husbands actually could take their paychecks. And women would never get their paychecks. They would all go directly to their husbands. They also couldn't. There were no protections on them working because they were supposed to be covered by their husbands. So if they got, if an employer like fired them. For those of you who have, speaking of Anne Hathaway and yesteryear, if you've watched the movie Les Mis and where she gets fired from her factory work. Yeah. I mean, there's no recourse for women with that. They have no legal recourse. You could get fired for being pregnant for getting married all the way up through the 1960s. And so what? The vote for women helped women to establish themselves as legal people, as citizens. You know, I always think it's because people are like, well, what good has the vote done? And I'm like, that's actually the wrong question. The question is, are women human? And if women are human and living as citizens, then women have the right to vote. It doesn't matter. So it's actually about the personhood of a woman. But then also it enables women to be able to advocate for legal rights as again, for the ability to not get fired when you get pregnant and all of those types of legal rights for women. And like the Equal Credit act was so that women, so that banks couldn't discriminate against women. Because women, up through the 80s, it was still pretty common that if a woman purchased a house or a car, she would have to get a male co signer because she wasn't able to do that on her own. And. And so those. I don't think people realize how recently it is that women can get credit cards in their own name.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So, yeah, all of that came about not as a direct response to the vote, but because women were able to establish themselves as legal persons and political persons, and then they were able to slowly move forward and get more rights. We still don't have the same rights.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Anyway, closer.

[A]

Yes. And I think what's really interesting, so in this book, the protagonist, she's kind of like more of like an antihero, but Natalie, the main person, kind of had this view or vision of people. Like, I'm actually, I'm critiquing our own podcast while we're sitting here talking of how people might perceive it as what she calls in the book, the angry women.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Natalie has this vision of women who go get jobs at law firms and, like, work their butts off for X amount of hours every day, and their kids are at home with a nanny and the husband is unhappy. And, like, she paints, like, this. This very, like, visceral image of what the angry women in the Fruit of Their Lives are. And I think. I wouldn't say that's. It is kind of how I grew up, but not necessarily, like, viewing that in the same way where it's like, I was also taught to be afraid of feminism. Right. Even though, like, I grew up in a church that was pastored by both of my grandparents, and my grandmother was the one who was preaching the most. But I was still taught to be very afraid of feminism because for me, it did equal anger.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so I'm just curious, like, as we're talking here, it's hitting me that. That it might be how this is hitting some people. Like, what would you say to that?

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, I. Yes, there are women who have been associated with the feminist movement, who have been associated with, you know, fighting for women's equal rights, who are angry. I mean, there is truth in that. Yes. But I mean, I think about Emmeline Pankhurst, who was the head of the militant movement in the uk, the militant suffrage movement, which some people are like, oh, my gosh, that's terrible that you have these women who are advocating for militancy. But what radicalized her was working in the poor law, working for the Poor Law Commission, where she actually went to the workhouses, where she saw the lives of these women who had no legal identity, who had no help, you know, if their husbands abandoned them, you know, they had nothing and they had these horrific lives. And that's what radicalized her was like, you know, and so she was actually a comfortable upper middle class woman. And what she did was she fought not just for herself, but for these women under these women who are in these horrific conditions. And so I think there is, I think sometimes we think anger is pride and about our own, like just being bitter. That word is used against women a lot. But the reality is, is that women's lives, especially non privileged women, women who grow up in, you know, who have fewer resources. You know, we talk about the term precarity in my classes a lot. And that some women, some people's lives, they have fewer acts, they have less access to resources and less ability to change their own lives. And women are more likely to be in that category.

[A]

And I'm sure black and brown women and then women with disabilities.

[B]

Absolutely. It just keeps getting worse. And so when you spend a lot of time in those places with people who are trying their hardest and simply can't get it because the deck is stacked against them, then it does, it makes you. There is, you just read the Bible, there is a place for self righteous, I mean not self righteous, but for righteous anger. And it's against injustice. And so I think we have taken that and we've said this is a bad thing, but actually anger against injustice is not a bad thing. That's actually what we are called, to fight for the poor, the oppressed, the widows and women are very often in that, that, in that category. But then I would also say that most women who are, who would consider themselves like me, you know, I definitely consider myself a feminist.

[A]

Yeah, on Google you were considered a feminist historian, which was new to me. I didn't. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that.

[B]

I never Google myself.

[A]

Oh, I mean, don't. It was all good stuff, but don't. But when I did that, I was like, I wonder if she is in, if she titles herself that way. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I mean I've never written that about myself, but I'm not surprised. I mean I teach what I do and what I teach. Yes, absolutely. But I mean, I'm not an angry person at all. I think people, when they are around me, they're always like, wow, you're a really nice person. I'm like I am. And it's so funny that people think feminism is not about being nice. And in fact, I just watched Instagram Personality and one of the things that she said in it, she was like, you know, when I met my first feminist, they were the people who asked me, like, what do you want to do? Like, you have choices in life. And she was like, feminism. People think feminism is like trying to control and make angry people and make you anti men and anti family. Anti family and anti, like wearing pretty clothes if you want to wear pretty clothes. And she said, I discovered that what feminism actually is is being like, you can choose, you can be who you want to be. It's like there's not a pre described thing about what women are supposed to be. You can be who God has made you. And that's the way I really look at feminism is that it opens doors for women. And yet what people often think is they see this image of this angry anti man person. And you know, I'm always, you know, like most students at Baylor when I was, I was a faculty in residence and I lived with students and, you know, they knew me as the person who made them waffles and brownies and went to. And so I mean, like, feminism isn't about not being a mom, not being married, not baking if you want to. Although I haven't been wanting to bake as much since I used to bake hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of brownies and waffles for kids. I did for years. And so it's not as fun for me anymore. But that's okay. But it's, you know, feminism is saying you can be who God made you. And instead of saying you have to look like this.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And tradwives say you have to look like this.

[A]

Yeah. And yeah, in. In the. The most famous or prominent trad wives are exceptions to their own rules. And that's where the irony is.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And that brings me back to you. We're gonna have to close soon, but for our project, all the Buried Women that we released two years ago, it was all about the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, which is called the Southern Baptist Convention. And it was about how the Southern Baptist Convention has treat their history. So we start in the 70s, which was really prominent for women in the SBC through kind of like the modern era. And we trace different women's stories, et cetera. But something that stood out to me when we were doing that research, because I came in as an alien to the sbc, whereas you were an insider, was how Many women, God made room for, like, it was like, despite the sbc, despite the systems, despite. Despite all of these men saying, you cannot do it. It was kind of like these women who were talented and gifted in certain arenas were really able to subversively push back.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

In ways that feels very, like, divine. I don't know. How does that hit you as a good description?

[B]

Yes, I. You know, I always say that. That women have always done the work of God, regardless of the rules placed around them. And, in fact, I think our episode that people told us was. Resonated with them the most was our one on Loopholes.

[A]

Yeah. Episode three, Loopholes.

[B]

We talked about how women who were called to do something got around it and were able to still do. They had more challenges and things weren't as easy for them, but they still, you know, the persistence, and that's one of. I love that about women's history, is the persistence of women in doing what they feel called to do and the

[A]

joyful persistence, I would say, with loopholes. We interviewed a woman named Rosalie Beck, who was a professor at Baylor, and she was also part of the Southern Baptist Convention. And she, by the SBC standards, should not have been allowed to teach because she was a woman. She should not have been able to teach theology because she was a woman. But she kind of had this, like, joyful tenacity about her where, like, no one was gonna tell her no, so she kind of just kept moving forward. And it reminded me, too, of when you were just talking kind of this. A resistance against this kind of, like, bitter feminist viewpoint that I think some people have. When I was in college, I started leading worship at a church that I guess women were not allowed to do stuff. But it was the first time I'd ever been to a church where women were not allowed to do things because it's just not how I grew up. And so I went to church Sunday after Sunday. All my friends went there, and I noticed, oh, no women are up here singing on this worship team. And I was like, maybe no one knows how to sing. So I walked up one Sunday to the worship leader, and I was like, hey, I've been going here for, like, several months. I go to Belmont down the street. Like, if you just. Just don't have any women who can sing, like, I'll totally sing background for you. And, like, it shocked him because it was like, no, you're not allowed to do that. But I didn't know the rules. And so I just kind of said, like, yeah. And I think he just panicked and was like, sure, you can come sing next week. And by the time that I left, like, being at that church and I was there for years, like, I was leading worship for my own services. Like, I was really able to kind of, like, wiggle my way in, but I think it was just because I didn't know. I didn't know the rules beforehand. And I kind of went in and disrupted them and just made room. And it sort of just happened. Like, it just all, like, kind of overflowed. And it reminded me of Rosalie back kind of just walking into the room and being like, I'm a good teacher.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, sure, you'll hire me. And so I do think also that there are spaces for this, that even in oppressive systems, that women are still able to find ways to flourish. Tell me.

[B]

Yes, and I mean, in some ways, the Trad wife actually is a manifestation of that, because it's like in these conservative spaces that say women can't do this, and they're like, hey, look at me. I'm going to make millions giving lip service to what you say I'm supposed to do. But actually, I'm my own powerhouse out here, and you can't really control me.

[A]

And you really can't.

[B]

And you really can't control. Because they have so many Instagram followers. And so it's. It creates this really interesting situation where women are more powerful than men.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And yet they're still supporting the system, but there's always what happens if they don't. And that's always. So women are still able to. We are still able masters of our own fate, I suppose, in some extent. And I think the Trad Wife. I think it's very amusing from that perspective.

[A]

That is actually such a good point, Beth. Well, I would highly recommend for anyone, if you're interested in this subject, read yesteryear. I. I'm not saying that this is a read I would recommend necessarily for, like, edification purposes, but it is an interesting cultural data point for how the Trad Wife movement is being perceived and maybe some shadow sides to this movement. And, Beth, you gave us a ton of history to understand it in that context, too.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

Thank you so much for joining.

[B]

It was fun.

[A]

If you like this episode of the Subtext and you learned about us through all the buried women, I would love for you to try the subtext out. We have a couple episodes that you might be into. Some of my favorite episodes are America Reads the Bible, where we talk about the America Reads the Bible event. I guess that's pretty self explanatory. America's Sweethearts, which is the show about the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders and social media calling, which actually talks a little bit about what we talked about today with yesteryear around whether or not people being on social media is a calling and what we can do with that.

[B]

That.

[A]

So I hope you'll join us and we'll see you soon.