Home Theater Geeks 461: UST Projector Showdown!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Home Theater Geeks 461: UST Projector Showdown!

Hosted by Scott Wilkinson and featuring Phil Jones of ProjectorReviews.com, this episode delves into the intricacies of Ultra Short Throw (UST) projectors through a comprehensive showdown. Released on December 12, 2024, the episode offers listeners an in-depth analysis of various UST projectors, their performance metrics, and practical applications in home theater setups.

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1. Introduction to UST Projectors

Scott Wilkinson kicks off the episode by welcoming Phil Jones, highlighting his expertise as the technical editor and lead reviewer at projectorreviews.com. The primary focus is the recently conducted UST Projector Showdown in collaboration with ProjectorScreen.com.

Phil Jones explains:

"UST stands for ultra short throw projector. And a lot of times you may hear them referred to as laser TVs." [03:42]

Key Points:

• UST Projectors are designed to project large images from a very short distance, often as close as six inches from the screen.
• Commonly branded as Laser TVs, these projectors integrate laser light sources, built-in speakers, and smart features, serving as TV replacements in typical living environments.

---

2. Understanding the Showdown

Phil elaborates on the motivation behind the showdown:

"It's very difficult to determine the differences or the advantages, disadvantages of one projector over another based on testing, previous testing, and your memory." [06:19]

Objective:

• To provide a side-by-side comparison of multiple UST projectors to offer consumers a clearer understanding of each model's strengths and weaknesses.
• Emphasis on realistic usage scenarios rather than idealized, professionally calibrated settings.

Methodology:

• Projectors were sourced directly from inventory to ensure they represent what consumers would typically purchase, avoiding "golden samples" that may have been specially calibrated.
• Manufacturers were invited to calibrate their own projectors within specific constraints, ensuring a fair and standardized testing environment.

---

3. Equipment and Setup

Phil Jones details the technical setup:

"We pulled the projectors directly from inventory... we gave the manufacturers the opportunity to visit his facility and spend about 90 minutes calibrating." [11:07]

Components Used:

• Sources:
  • Kaleidoscape Strato: A high-end streamer ensuring consistent local content playback.
  • Panasonic UB820 UHD Blu-ray Player & HT PC: Provided both high-quality disc-based and PC-based sources.
• Cables:
  • Uniform 90-foot optical HDMI cables were used to eliminate discrepancies due to cable length.
• Screens:
  • Eight 100-inch Ambient Light Rejecting (ALR) screens were set up with blinders to minimize interference between adjacent projectors.

Testing Environments:

• Darkened Room: Mimicking a traditional home theater environment.
• Bright Room: Assessing projector performance under ambient lighting conditions.

---

4. Testing Criteria and Categories

The showdown evaluated projectors across multiple categories to capture a holistic performance profile.

Categories Included:

• SDR (Standard Dynamic Range):
  • Color Reproduction
  • Skin Tone Accuracy
  • Contrast and Black Levels
  • Shadow Detail
  • Detail and Sharpness
  • 24p Motion Handling
  • Overall Brightness and Daytime Viewing Performance
• HDR (High Dynamic Range):
  • Color Reproduction
  • Contrast and Black Levels
  • Shadow Detail
  • Highlight Detail
  • Motion Handling
  • Tone Mapping Efficiency
• Visual Artifacts:
  • Laser Speckle
  • Chromatic Aberrations

Phil Jones emphasizes:

"A projector cannot accurately reproduce consumer HDR content... they utilize tone mapping... which impacts if you do it wrong, it does not look good." [34:41]

Scoring System:

• Point-Based Evaluation: Judges rated each projector from 10 (A+) to 1 based on performance in each category.
• Judges' Pick: Beyond numerical scores, judges selected their personal favorite based on overall experience, considering factors like price, sound quality, construction, and user interface.

---

5. Results and Insights

The showdown revealed nuanced insights, underscoring that there is no one-size-fits-all "best" projector. Instead, the optimal choice depends on individual preferences and specific use cases.

Notable Findings:

• Hisense PX3 Pro:

  • Point Total: Led in HDR performance, securing first place in this category.
  • Performance: State-of-the-art features with updated light sources and video processing resulted in excellent picture quality.
  • Quote: "They've added some new things like a newer light source new video processing... delivered great picture quality." [50:03]

• Epson LS800:

  • Point Total: Secured second place overall.
  • Performance: Utilizes Epson's proven 3LCD technology, offering superior brightness and color lumens compared to typical DLP-based UST projectors.
  • Quote: "It's very accurate out of the box... It's a good piece." [27:00]

• XGME Aura 2:

  • Point Total: Strong performance in SDR color reproduction but didn't win overall due to preferences for brightness and other attributes.
  • Performance: Excelled in color accuracy but struggled with higher brightness HDR content unless using Dolby Vision.
  • Quote: "If you like a huge Blu Ray collection... the Aura 2 is great at that." [51:10]

• NexiGo and Other Competitors:

  • Performance: Provided competitive features at more affordable price points, catering to budget-conscious consumers without significant compromises.
  • Quote: "It's state of the art... delivered great picture quality." [28:04]

Phil Jones reflects on the subjective nature of judging:

"There is no absolute winner... it's what works best for you." [52:17]

Key Takeaway:

• Reference vs. Preference: Technical accuracy doesn't always align with viewer preference. Features like color saturation may enhance viewing pleasure in certain environments despite not being technically accurate.

---

6. Practical Recommendations

Based on the showdown results, Phil Jones offers guidance for consumers:

"You have to look at each category and say what matters most to you." [52:44]

Considerations for Choosing a UST Projector:

• Usage Environment: Determine if the projector will predominantly be used in a dark room or a brightly lit space.
• Content Type: Assess whether SDR or HDR content is more prevalent in your viewing habits.
• Budget: Balance between desired features and affordability, considering whether premium models justify their higher prices based on individual needs.
• Additional Features: Evaluate built-in functionalities like Dolby Vision support, smart features, and user interface quality.

Future Showdowns:

• Plans for exploring niche categories such as compact lifestyle projectors and larger-scale, high-end models are underway, promising even more tailored insights for diverse consumer segments.

---

7. Conclusion

The UST Projector Showdown serves as a valuable resource for home theater enthusiasts, providing a detailed comparison of leading UST projectors. By emphasizing real-world performance and user-centric evaluation criteria, the episode equips listeners with the knowledge to make informed decisions tailored to their specific viewing preferences and environment.

Scott Wilkinson wraps up the episode by directing listeners to additional resources:

"We'll put the links in the show notes... Thank you for your support of the TWIT Network." [55:08]

For a comprehensive view of the showdown results and detailed scorecards, listeners are encouraged to visit projectorreviews.com and projectorscreen.com.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Phil Jones [03:42]: "It's better over here now."
• Phil Jones [06:19]: "It's very difficult to determine the differences or the advantages, disadvantages of one projector over another based on testing, previous testing, and your memory."
• Phil Jones [34:41]: "A projector cannot accurately reproduce consumer HDR content... they utilize tone mapping... which impacts if you do it wrong, it does not look good."
• Phil Jones [50:03]: "They've added some new things like a newer light source new video processing... delivered great picture quality."
• Phil Jones [52:17]: "There is no absolute winner... it's what works best for you."
• Phil Jones [52:44]: "You have to look at each category and say what matters most to you."

---

Additional Resources:

• ProjectorReviews.com: https://www.projectorreviews.com
• ProjectorScreen.com: https://www.projectorscreen.com

Transcript

[Scott Wilkinson]

In this episode of Home Theater Geeks, I chat with Phil Jones of ProjectorReviews.com about the recently conducted UST Projector Showdown. So stick around.

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[Phil Jones]

It's better over here now.

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[Phil Jones]

Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is twit.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Hey there Scott Wilkinson here, the home theater geek. In this episode, I'm going to be talking with Phil Jones of ProjectorReviews.com about a recent showdown that he conducted of UST projectors. The showdown was conducted in conjunction with Projectorscreen.com, an online retailer of projectors and screens and Phil and his website, projectorreviews.com does what it says, reviews projectors. Hey, Phil. Welcome to the show.

[Phil Jones]

Hey, how are you guys?

[Scott Wilkinson]

So good.

[Phil Jones]

It's good to see you, Scott.

[Scott Wilkinson]

It's good to see you too. You've been on the show before, but it's been quite a while. So I was sure glad to have a chance to have you back on.

[Phil Jones]

Oh, yeah. It's a pleasure.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So you are the technical editor and lead reviewer of projectorreviews.com so you've got a lot of experience with projectors and you put this event together with Brian Gluck, who is one of the principals anyway, if not the [e-mail] so let's start with making sure that everybody knows what a UST projector is.

[Phil Jones]

So a lot UST stands for ultra short throw projector. And a lot of times you may hear them referred to as laser TVs. And what that means is a. An ultra short throw projector that uses a laser light source that has built in speakers and smart features. It's basically a TV replacement for someone who's looking to utilize a projector in an environment where you would normally have a television. And because it's an ultra short throw, the projector could be literally six inches away from the screen and still project an image approaching 120 inches. So kind of a cool tech, kind of a cool growing category in projectors. And a lot of companies are now making these types of models and they.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Also use a special type of screen, right? I mean, a lot of people would say, oh, just put the projector up against the wall. Shoot it up against a white wall.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

Good idea, right?

[Phil Jones]

Well, the screen, if you think about a projector, there's three parts that. Three things that basically impact the performance of your projector, the projector, your room, and the screen. Those are the three things. The screen ensures that the image is perfectly flat on an ultra short throw projector. Because the distance is so close between the screen and the projector, any waves in your wall is going to look like distortion. The next thing is to project the materials. There's different type of fabrics you could use. And what they do is some of them which are ultra short throw specific, can reject ambient light because they're only going to accept light from a steep angle from the projector if it's from below the screen, from below the screen at a very steep angle. So anything in front of it, above it, to the left isn't, doesn't impact it. So that what you end up with is the ability to utilize the projector during the day. So if you have a bright one, one of these units, and you have a good screen, it literally can be a TV replacement. The units that we chose, that sometimes they're bundled with the screens, but the units that we chose for this unit, for this showdown actually are standalone units. Gives you the flexibility to buy the size of screen and the type of screen, motorized up, motorized down, fixed, whatever that you want to utilize for your home environment.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. Okay, so tell us about the shootout. How did it come about? What were the basic premises that you were using that you wanted to achieve?

[Phil Jones]

Okay, so let's talk about it. I do a lot of reviews of projectors. Right. Unprotected reviews. But the issue is it's very difficult to determine the differences or the, the advantages, disadvantages of one projector over another based on testing, previous testing, and your memory. So because there'll be times where I'll review a $3,000 ultra short throw projector and it could be two months before I get another one. And while trying to remember which one had better color, it's not really going to work. And then also, testing doesn't really apply a lot of times to the real world. You could test a projector and you're measuring its potential contrast ratio, brightness. But things such as your video processing has a major impact on how those particular capabilities are utilized. So you'll find a projector that actually has, on paper, more brightness, better contrast, better black levels on paper with the test. But then when you play video on it, the one that actually has a lower amount, theoretically a lower amount of contrast seems to give you better blacks and higher brightness. So you really need to see them side by side. So when Brian said, hey, I got eight screens here, you know, I manufacture, I am the. I am the. I sell all eight brands or eight brands or multiple brands. Let's compile a list of these and kind of come up with this, with a showdown. Now, this is. We didn't award the best because there is no best. And it's all about the combination of features and what you want. But we want to give people a better understanding of what was out there so they can choose the best product for themselves.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So another thing that I found really interesting that you told me before the show was that you didn't actually do full calibrations.

[Phil Jones]

Yes.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Which I thought was very interesting because normally in these shootout kind of situations, showdown situations, you know, you would calibrate them all, but you didn't in this case, why not?

[Phil Jones]

Yeah. Well, a lot of idiots say haka like me want to calibrate them, right? What a. Calibrate them and get the, get the Klein tool out and how many, you know, what's the color gamut and all that type of stuff. And like, right next to me right now, I have the big JVC, you know, the. Which is $26,000, and the big Sony, which is $30,000. Yes, you should absolutely calibrate those. But we have to be realistic to the target audience of the products we're talking about. Most of these laser ultra short throw projectors that we reviewed sold between 25 and $6,000, the median price being around 32 to $3,500. And it's quite rare that someone who's spending $3,000, one of these units is going to go out and spend several hundred bucks to have it professionally calibrated. So we want it to be more realistic because I've, I've been on both sides, Scott, you know that I used to work for size, to work for a company that starts with an S and with a Y. And I've been with these where one manufacturer will send eight engineers and get into the service manual and spend four and a half hours calibrating it, and then the other manufacturer would spin 10 minutes. And all of a sudden, the one that has hours and hours of calibration wins the contest. But they don't manage to tell everybody that, yeah, there's no way you're probably going to get that because you're not going to have, you're not going to spend that much money or have those capabilities. So we want it to be fair. We want to give manufacturers a guideline. Hey, you know your projectors better than us. You believe that your projector offers the best balance of color, accuracy, brightness and black level detail. You tell us what the best settings are based on what you believe, and then we will use those settings and then we will. Because we've done that. Where they go, we, I have it calibrated. They go, why didn't you turn that feature off? Or why didn't you turn this feature on? We said you make the decision manufacturers, and then we will gather a group of judges and pick the ones that deliver the best overall experience. And what we've learned doing this showdown, Scott, is a lot of times the most accurate one isn't the one that won.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Really? Wow. So am I correct then, that you had the manufacturers of the projectors that were in the showdown come in and adjust Their own projector.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, we gave them, we gave them a couple of different options. So the first thing was we pulled. Brian insisted, and I agree that we pulled the products directly from inventory because a lot of manufacturers will send you a golden sample.

[Scott Wilkinson]

The golden sample.

[Phil Jones]

Golden sample, which some engineer goes through and tweaks on it before he sends it off. So we said that's not real. That's not representative of what the normal person can buy. So the first thing is he pulled them from his inventory and many of them, he sells all the projectors. And many of them of the manufacturers said, okay, if you pull them for inventory now it's open, we will replace it with another one kind of thing. So the first thing pulled from inventory, so it is a representative of a model you could actually buy. It's not. No, it's not a special unit. The next thing is we gave the manufacturers the opportunity to visit his facility and spend. We gave them a time limit of about 90 minutes. And we also told them no fancy, you know, test patterns. You can't get into the service menu. You need to utilize things that the basic test patterns that the average consumer has access to. So for example, I can go on YouTube and go to the Meridio website and get the contrast test, the contrast test pattern, the brightness test pattern, the motion test patterns. Use the ones that the average person can, you can, can utilize to determine what's the best approach. And then, then they would go in and say, okay, well this is the best picture mode. Maybe this color temperature, maybe the motion set to this. And I'm going to adj brightness and contrast to this. And I believe this is the best balance for this particular shootout. So some would come in, others would just provide the recommendations. But we did have one manufacturer that opted not to. And, and what we. And, and it. They should have came. That's the best way I could, I could explain it. And we'll talk about that as we get into the results a little later.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes, exactly. Okay, very good. So they, you set up the projectors and they're all in a room, right? They're all lined up, all shooting onto the same screen.

[Phil Jones]

Yes. Yes. Brian.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Not the same. The same make and mob.

[Phil Jones]

Yes. So I think Spectra provided Brian with a multiple eight 100 inch screens. We chose 100 because that was the only way we could fit eight of them in a room. The screens are ambient light rejecting and because, and we also use, think of them almost like blinders in between the screens to minimize the interaction between the two. So if you had two projectors on opposite sides of the room because they're ambient light rejecting, they would not see each other. They're more likely to see the, to be impacted by the one beside it. So here we have blinders. Yeah.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Here we have a picture of the room with blinders between the screens.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. And we want to, if you notice the ambient lights are up. So we reviewed, we, we looked at these projectors in two different environments. Lights down and lights up. Because a lot of people who buy ultra short throw projectors want to utilize them all the time. Not just at night in a bat cave watching, watching, you know, Harry Potter movies. They want, they want to, they want to watch sports and things like that. So we wanted to evaluate them in not only darkened environments but also in brighter environments. And so people can choose based on how they're going to be using the projector and their budgets. Which one worked best for them.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah, very good.

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[Phil Jones]

It's better over here.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

You had a Kaleidoscape Strato, which is a very high end streamer.

[Phil Jones]

Movie player. Yeah, movie player.

[Scott Wilkinson]

You also had a Panasonic UB820, which is a really fine UHD Blu Ray player and an HT PC. A home theater PC as I understand.

[Phil Jones]

Yes, we. Most of the reason why we took the. We utilized Kaleidoscape is consistency. If you. We also had an Apple tv. The problem with Apple TV is you're at the mercy of your Internet. So you're not really sure if the projectors are being fed the best signal possible.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Whereas with the Kaleidoscape you download the content onto a local hard drive.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And play it from there and you're assured of consistency.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. If you we. I just did a review on the Same Model on ProjectedReviews.com the actual player and it. It is actually the best. The best source. So for example, even if you have a. If you have a disc, a disc has a finite amount of storage on it and that. So it works fine if I put in a 90 minute movie because I could put the movie on there, the trailers on there, nine different languages on there, different surround sound formats on there. But if the movie gets longer, like Dune, eventually start running out of space. So you have to start applying. You have to reduce the bit rate that's on the disk.

[Scott Wilkinson]

More compression.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. A Kaleidoscape is consistent bit rate. So it doesn't matter how long the movie is, the file just gets bigger. So we wanted to make sure that the sources were the best source possible. The next thing is we even Brian even ensured that all of the bullet train cables, the digital optical cables were the exact same length. So we got eight. I think they were 90 foot long optical HDMIS. So no, so that. So you wouldn't have one projector connected with a short wire and one projector connected with a long wire.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Excellent. That's exactly the way to do it. Yeah.

[Phil Jones]

Okay. And then we ran. And then also we had the Blu Ray player. One of the reasons why we had the Blu Ray player was it allowed me to. The Blu Ray player of course could do Dolby Vision. It could do. It can do HDR10, HDR10 plus. It can also do. It also allowed it because it had a U USB that I can run some compressed pieces. So we took some stuff that was compressed down to about, you know, better, a little better than what you would get on Netflix at that bit rate. So we could feed those to the, to the projectors as well consistently. And then all went through a matrix switch, a high end matrix switch from AV Pro.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. A matrix switcher that lets you take any of those sources and send Them out to any or all of the projectors.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. So it's all about this level playing field is what we're trying to achieve.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And so what content did you use?

[Phil Jones]

Well, that was. That was one of the. See, Brian worked on setting up the room and his Brian and the guys at projector screens, projectorscreen.com I got to give him a shout out. I mean, Talking eight screens stands for the projectors, all the switching, all the wiring, the lighting and everything. So they did a lot of that.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So monumental task.

[Phil Jones]

That's a lot. It's a big task. So what I tackled was trying to determine, you know, what are the categories we were going to test and what were quick things or examples of things that we can test. Now a lot of stuff that I picked were stress tests because we're trying to see which one excels in this particular thing. So that meant I have to pick stuff that was really challenging to. For things like black level, shadow, reproduction, brightness, highlight, detail, all of the motion, all of those types of things. I also limited the amount of test patterns. I think we used one motion test pattern and then we switched and then we. But we also did a motion movie which showed all of those things. And I think I used a couple of photography shots of like a 4k newspaper when we're talking about 4k resolution and edge to edge sharpness. But the majority of stuff that we used is real world content because you can do great on a test pattern and look horrible in real life. So we said, let's stick to real world content.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep, yep. Good, good. Okay, so you had all these projectors. We're going to explain which of them you had there. But let's also give a shout out to the judges. You had six judges who were there to evaluate these projectors and here they are. Give us a quick rundown on the. On the.

[Phil Jones]

So, so what we tried to do is we tried to grab people because a lot of times you go to these and it's just hardcore video people. Right, right. And. But we said, okay, we want to get kind of a mix of people. So yes, we had some calibrators and some video reviewers, but we also had just some people who just do entertainment technology. So we can get kind of a more well rounded understanding of, you know, how this product is perceived. Right. Because I always say this reference and preference. And a lot of times, if there's. A lot of times people will go after the reference, but it doesn't look very good. So we said, okay. And that was the thing we told the manufacturers if more saturated colors look better in a room with ambient light, may not be accurate, but it looks better in a room with ambient light. So you have to have that fine balance between absolute reference and what actually looks good. And, and because if that was the case, there wouldn't be any bass knobs on, on stereo systems. Right. And you wouldn't be able to turn your subwoofers up. Right. There's reference and there's preference and man, that's really good.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I, I will remember that.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah. So, and, and that was, and we've, we learned that as we went through like for example, one of the projectors was. They all, most of these projectors had tri laser RGB laser light sources. So they can display a massive amount of, of colors.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Phil Jones]

The problem is when you're watching SDR material, you don't need that much. So it's like you only need to buy the eight box of crayons but you got a 500 box. And it's really easy for someone for the to grab the brightest red crayon in the box instead of one you actually need. And this project do that. So colors, extreme colors, really bright reds, really bright greens, really bright blues. Like wow, they really stood out. Right. It wasn't accurate, but everybody was like, oh, it's not accurate. Well, wow, I really like the way that looks.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Oh man, how many times have I gone into somebody's house and their TV is in vivid mode. Right?

[Phil Jones]

Exactly.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I said, oh man, that's just way too bright. They say, yeah, but I like it.

[Phil Jones]

I like it. And that's, and that's the thing. Like in a darkened room, it stands. It may bother you, but in a room with some ambient light, having the reds and everything a little bit more punchy just makes it nicer to look at with the lights on. So there's a reference and then there's.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And there's a preference.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I will remember that.

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It's better over here.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay, well let's, let's list the competitors then.

[Phil Jones]

Okay.

[Scott Wilkinson]

We had two from Hisense.

[Phil Jones]

So the first one was the PX3 Pro that is kind of their newest model. Hisense is probably the biggest manufacturer of what they call laser TVs or smart ultra short throw projectors with built in sound systems. Right. They kind of started this whole category. The whole name Laser TV comes from them. Comes from them. So the PX3 Pro is their latest unit that comes. That does not ship with a screen. So perfect for this because we want to pick projectors didn't come with a screen. Then you also had the PL2 which is a blue laser phosphor, basically single laser. The, the. The. So it cannot reduce produce the crazy amount of colors that the PX3 Pro could. But most content does not have that. But it's a very. But, but at it. But it's a very approachable price point. It was about.

[Scott Wilkinson]

It's much less expensive.

[Phil Jones]

It's much less expensive.

[Scott Wilkinson]

3 Pro is 3,500 bucks and the PL2 is 2,800 bucks. On sale on the website as of yesterday. Over 25.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. So that, so we had those two, both had smart features built in sound, a lot of similar technologies built in. Except for one of them just has a much, much, much nicer laser light source in it and is brighter.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Phil Jones]

Okay.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay. Then we had two from four Movie which is a surprisingly highly regarded company that makes these products that I hadn't heard about after more than a couple years ago.

[Phil Jones]

Well, 4 movie is a kind of a newer brand for the U.S. you know, in, in Asia pretty popular. The 4 movie theater actually won the one to shoot out the year before.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Last year.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, last year. So the, the new theater premium is they've made some serious. They made some advances when it comes to brightness and some other things to make that projector stand out. Just like, just like the Hisense that was their flagship model. And then they also have one called the four Movie. Was it Cinema Edge?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Cinema Edge, yeah.

[Phil Jones]

And that's Their. That's their single laser value unit. So. So they both had. So both comp. High sense and for movie, both had those. Those models in the shootout.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay. Then we had a stalwart in the projector business, epson, with their LS800.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, the LS800 actually came in second place. And during the last showdown. Incredibly bright. And it has the. Because of its. It's the. It's pretty much the only non DLP project ultra short throw projector available. Most ultra short throw projectors utilize a DLP, a DLP chip. And this uses Epson's Proven 3 LCD that results in higher. They call it color lumens. The ability to not only do bright whites, but also generate the same amount of brightness, just showing red or green or blue. So it. So it's a. So when it comes to brightness, it is. It's. It's. It's awesome. And. And like I said, I. I like it. It's pretty ac. It's very accurate out of the box. It's a good piece. It's a good piece. I think. I can't remember what that piece retails for.

[Scott Wilkinson]

3, 500 bucks.

[Phil Jones]

3, 500 bucks. But I like that. I like that unit on the expensive.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Side for a single laser anyway. But. But really high quality.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah. It actually won an award on projective reviews is one of our recommended pieces. So it's a piece.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Cool.

[Phil Jones]

Okay.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay, then. We have another company I had not heard of before. Nexigo.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, it's funny, I. I just learned about these gentlemen a few, like, about a year and a half ago. So they were in the shootout that was conducted a year prior, but which I did not participate in. But they made some adjustments and some advancements to their software. So that happened right after the last showdown. So he decided this. We decided to include it in this year's showdown. It's a Trilaser RGB laser device. Has some really cool dynamic contrast technologies built in. And we actually just did a review. Our review on this unit actually just popped up on project reviews a couple of days after the showdown. The shootout. The showdown. And good piece. Quite affordable as well.

[Scott Wilkinson]

2,700 bucks retail.

[Phil Jones]

2700 bucks. So. So. And. And it actually had some. Some very good strengths to that unit that we were impressed with.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Great. Next to last is X. Jimmy. I think that's how you pronounce it.

[Phil Jones]

XGME.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, XGME. X G, I M, I. The Aura 2.

[Phil Jones]

So the XGME is they have made a name for themselves. And what are Called lifestyle projectors. Those ones that look like little cubes that have built in sound systems. More of the. Instead of mounting it to the back of the ceiling, it's more of put it on the counter in front of me, like on a table in front of me and move it around.

[Scott Wilkinson]

All of these are. Put it on the. Something in front of you right exactly to the wall.

[Phil Jones]

But those are. Yeah, it's not a. Yeah. So these are. They made their name on kind of a more traditional throw in a more compact form factor.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I see.

[Phil Jones]

And, and, and this, the little Aura 2 is their second generation. So they decided to, to, to enter it. The style and design is beautiful. It's very compact. It had some advantages which we'll talk about, but that it goes back to that reference versus preference thing and we'll see how. How sometimes like you said, reference doesn't always mean winner. So I saw that. But that piece I think retails for under 2700 bucks. Yeah, around 20. So as you can see, everything's under most. Almost everything is under 3,000.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Except the last one. The Samsung Premier 9. Otherwise known as the LPU 9D.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, the, the Samsung Premiere piece is. The Premier 9 is one of the most expensive ultra, ultra short throw projectors on the market. It's built like a tank. So fit and finish wise build quality wise. It's. You talk about user interface. If you're a Samsung person, that user interface has been perfect it over millions of televisions. It has. If you want to calibrate it, you can calibrate it like a, like a Samsung tv. So fit and finish. Very, very, very, very, very, very good. Which makes it very, very, very expensive.

[Scott Wilkinson]

$6,000.

[Phil Jones]

$6,000.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I'm actually as much as most of these or more than most of these.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly that. The, the last unit won an award. The previous model won an aw. So we definitely wanted to bring it in there because it was one of the newer models and people want to know how does it start? How does the new one stack up? So, so we actually brought that. We, we actually included it. I will say as I mentioned, most of the manufacturers opted to come to the shootout. We met with Samsung, we explained the process and they opted not to share the information or they opted to say you just do. You guys just do whatever you need to do. So.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Wow.

[Phil Jones]

So what I did and it was my call was I was. Because remember talking about that reference versus preference. So what I did was there. Most of the time when you look at these high end projectors, the best looking Picture modes is either their movie modes or their filmmaker modes or something like that. So the filmmaker mode tends to be the most accurate, bright mode.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep.

[Phil Jones]

On the unit. So that's the unit. That's what I chose. Now after the review, after the thing, we went in and started messing with it and said, okay, well, maybe if you put it into its vibrant mode and make adjustments, it probably would have been a better solution, but that was not my call to make, you know, so we just said, if you're, if you can't, if you're not going to come, we're going to pick the best mode out of the box. You know, that. And that when it tended.

[Scott Wilkinson]

That's going to be filmmaker mode.

[Phil Jones]

The filmmaker mode. And, and, but, but because of that, it was challenged in some of the categories that we were actually, shall we say.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, let's take a look at those categories. Well, let's show the score, the scorecard that all the judges got to fill in.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah. So if we want to go through the scorecard, I, I, I said, I've been to these things where they have, like, dark room mode and light remote. People don't do that.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, except, except that you did do some evaluations with the lights on, and so.

[Phil Jones]

We did. We did. But, but aren't going to adjust to one mode and do all the adjustments and then make a mode number two. Because I've seen, like, on the big guys, they do that. But the average consumer is probably going to pick one SDR mode, and whether the lights are on and off, they're just going to choose that mode. So, so that's what we did. One mode. Right. And then we check things such as, you know, because sdr, color reproduction, contrast, black level. I can't really see all the different things because it's itty bitty.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. But, yeah, there's color accuracy, skin tone, contrast, black level, shadow detail, detail and sharpness. 24pmotion for movies and overall score for brightness and daytime viewing. So there was a category for day with the lights on.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah. How does it react in the daytime? What does it look like in the daytime? So those are the ways. So those are the categories that we did for sdr. For hdr, the categories of you still care about color reproduction, you still care about your black, your contrast and your black levels. Motion is motion. So if it works well in sdr, it's going to be the same results in hdr. And then we also added some other things. I actually highlight detail and visual and visual artifacts. Visual artifacts apply to both SDR and hdr. And that could be things such as laser speckle, chromatic air, chromatic aberrations. Which is like if you look at a white line, it looks like there's a red line or green line onto the left and right of it or something like that.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right.

[Phil Jones]

You know, those types of things are visual artifacts. The one thing you'll see on here is I really wanted to separate the term tone mapping into multiple things. A projector cannot accurately reproduce consumer HDR content. I will repeat that. A projector, due to its limited brightness, cannot on screen brightness, cannot accurately reproduce HDR content. HDR content is mastered for flat panels which can deliver, say we'll use a term here, knits. So nits. A ousand nits or four thousand nits is based on what the mastering is. Those contents are Mastodon. A projector. You're lucky to get 200 nits out of it, so there's no way that it could accurately produce it. So they utilize tone mapping, which is almost like. Think of it as contrast curve compression in order to fit that brightness onto the screen. And that impacts. If you do it wrong, it does not look good. So we wanted to divide it into can it deliver inky blacks and good shadow detail? Can it still deliver good on screen overall brightness? And can it do all of that without blowing out the highlight information in the brighter scene? So that's how we kind of broke it down. Those three things define tone mapping.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah, very good. But in, in realistic terms, in sort of more everyday terms rather than tone mapping, which many people wouldn't even understand what that is.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. Right, Exactly. Can I see stuff in the shadows? Is it, is the shadows.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Can I see. Can I see details in the, in the highlights too?

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. And is it. Does the image look dim? Because a lot of times in order to give you all the highlight details and all the shadow details, if you don't bend a curve properly, the overall scene just looks dark and dim compared to. And that's why a lot of times people choose to watch SDR instead of HDR on a projector because the tone mapping curve isn't correct.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right.

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[Phil Jones]

It's better over here.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

All right, so we have a few pictures during the process itself as people were milling around and doing their evaluations. Well, first here's a picture of you and Brian giving a little intro, I'm sure.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, we were just talking, letting the judges know the expectation and one of the things we told them was when you're doing this evaluation, you're grading on a curve. Right. So because they had just went downstairs and saw tooth and we're messing around with two thirty thousand dollar home theater projectors. Right. If you're trying to compare brightness, black level, color detail, motion against that, these aren't. These are just a three thousand dollar unit. Right. So the way I said it is the best one gets the A plus and then you grade down from there.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Phil Jones]

Right. So you have a plus is not.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Going to be the same as the $30,000 a plus.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. And that's one of the challenges I have on my website is I've been trying to put on kind of a rating system, right. But if I do a rating system, I have to do different rating systems based on things such as price point and other and applications. Because good black level on a ultra short throw projector, DLP Ocho Shocho projector is not the same as good black level on an L cost 3 chip, you know, $20,000 home theater projector. So we wanted to make sure that they realized they didn't hit the grade on the curve. Okay. And they did a really good job of doing that great.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So a couple more pictures we have of the. Of the system or the thing as it was going here. We saw this one before. Everyone's sitting around a table. Here they are in a dark room environment, kind of wandering.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, that was one of those ones. We were looking at shadow detail. So one of the benefits of having a of of screens is these screens are really good at rejecting ambient light, but they have a pretty like a. Like a very wide viewing angle. So while you would. They would walk and stand directly in front of each projector. It was nice to be able to back up and look at two or three of them at the same time to. To compare. So. So this is a scene from Star wars, the one of the Jedi movies. The last. I can't remember. Right. I should know it. And. And it's a scene and you're looking at Kylo Ren and you know, can you see all the detail in his helmet, in his cape and stuff like that?

[Scott Wilkinson]

So it's the last Jedi.

[Phil Jones]

Last Jedi. Thank you. I use this. I use this scene constantly. One of the nice things about the Kaleidoscape is I could queue up and make these little short scenes so I can quickly jump from one to the other. So we had like six or four or five, actually five clips we looked at for dark scenes with contrast and five for bright and stuff like that. But this is just us checking out the. This scene.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. Okay. And moving on to. I think we have another picture. Not 100% sure. Oh, this is cool. Go tell us a little bit about this.

[Phil Jones]

Okay. So after we went through and did sdr, we talked about that SDR and HD common things, color reproduction and all of that stuff. When you get to hdr, SDR material is mastered at the same brightness level. Doesn't matter whether you're watching something on a VHS or you're watching something on a Blu Ray. You're watching broadcast. They're all mastered at the same brightness at 100. At 100 nits. HDR is not. It can be mastered at a wide range of brightnesses. So a Spears and Munsell offers a test test, an HDR test disk that runs that they. They took the same scenes and you can choose different brightness levels or mastering levels from as low as 400 or 1000 all the way up to 10,000. Mastered at it with a brightness, a max brightness of 10,000. And that really impacts how the projectors react to those scenes, which. What you're looking at here is the Panasonic Blu ray player can also read the Metadata. There's basically metadata injected into HDR material that tells you what the max brightness, the brightest pixel in the scene is and the average frame level for the scene. This right here is. And what I did was I. I picked this scene. It's like these horses. It's like a. It's like a common torture test. And then we worked our way up to see how well these projectors responded as the, as the, as the brightness got higher and as the. The content was mastered at higher and higher and higher, it becomes more and more difficult for these projectors to reproduce and you start getting blown out shot highlight detail and stuff in the background is completely disappear.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. I believe this isn't this scene on Spears and Munsells.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, the Spirits and Muscle. Hdr.

[Scott Wilkinson]

HDR benchmark.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, HDR benchmark. Great disc. If you're looking at trying to dial in your projector, it has motion tests. That's where we got our motion test as well. It has contrast tests for both SDR and hdr. So if you really want to. If you're someone that wants to make adjustments and even comes with a very, very good guide to explain to you how to use these test patterns. So I always encourage people that you're. If you have a projector especially, you got to take into account your room and your screen and 30 bucks or whatever the price is for this screen. To fine tune it. Yeah, to fine tune it for this disc. It makes it worthwhile.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, I have to say, with a point of pride, I wrote that user guide.

[Phil Jones]

Oh, you did?

[Scott Wilkinson]

I did.

[Phil Jones]

Good job, Scott.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Thank you. Okay, so finally we took it. Take a look at the results. After all that, it was a one day thing, right?

[Phil Jones]

Yeah, it was one day. And that was one of the things people said, why didn't you test this? And why didn't you test that? Because we had one day.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, right.

[Phil Jones]

One day. And this was a full day starting at like 9 o'clock in the morning and going till about 6 at night just to get through these categories. Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I'm sorry, here's one more picture.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah. So this is actually the motion one. One. This was actually.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Love the color on this.

[Phil Jones]

Isn't it amazing? So this, it was funny. I would try to pick a, a scene for a particular test. Right. So we picked this test. This is the opening beginning of baby driver. And we were using this for motion because he walks, there's a lot of panning and he's walking across, walking by poles and a lot of vertical objects. So. So it does A really good job helping you determine if you see any motion artifacts. But at the same time it's shot incredibly well. So the colors and the skin tones. So it was hard. So judges would. I told people when they were judging to write in pencil because you would say, oh, this one's great. And then halfway through you end up erasing it.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So I'm like, oh, this one's better.

[Phil Jones]

And then you go, wow, I think this is a little better than what I thought. So yeah. So as they were going along, we told them to kind of write and make notes. Notes in each category in pencil. And then at the end of everything then go in and say, okay, based on the tests for color. And then what I saw after those tests, now which one would I pick? And that was an example of that, that it was a motion test. But it happens to also be a great test for color, skin tones and even sound. It's got a great soundtrack to that.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

CT mobile.com okay, now let's take a look at the results. And interestingly you actually ranked these in two different ways.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah. So first thing was the points and then the next thing was judges pick. Right. That goes back to reference and preference. Right. And so I can give you an example. The aura. The XGMI Aura 2 was the most accurate when it came to SDR color reproduction. But no one picked it for their choice for SDR because they wanted either they wanted more brightness or they or they wanted they liked the pop of the other of the, of one of the other projectors. So, so what Brian did was each based on, based on their placement. First, second, third, they were assigned a point. A point. A number of points. Actually I think he had them rate them from X. I'm sorry. He had the projectors rated from 10 being the A all the way down to 1. Nobody got a 1. Right. And then what he did was he compiled all of those numbers to get the, the score for that particular category.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And you're talking about the judges pick.

[Phil Jones]

No, I'm talking about the, the placement. So if you look at the bottle where it says SDR you'll see those numbers. 7. 7. What? Those are what the averages. Right. For that projector for that category.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. From all six.

[Phil Jones]

From, from all six judges from 10 to one. Right. And then after that that's where those point. He took those totals and then he added up all of the totals for SDR and the one that had the highest totals for SDR won the. Was placed number one when it came to the points total.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Phil Jones]

Then after that he goes forget all of that. Based on price, sound construction, user interface and all of the other factors, which one would you pick? You know.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. And would you buy to take home yourself.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly. Or recommend to someone else it's a friend or your mom. Your friend or family. And then that is where the judges pick came in. And you'll notice that the judges picks don't align with point scores. And then the point and then the, the one. Yeah. So that's what we're saying about that reference versus preference thing.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right? Right. Although the judges pick and the point total pick did, did align with in the case of the first choice and the third choice and the second choice.

[Phil Jones]

Yeah. The, the. When it came to the PX3 Pro, the PX3 Pro did a really good job. And just about it wasn't like everything that, that, that projector did everything perfectly right. It did. Did more things well, you know what I mean? And I will say that the Hisense PX3 Pro, they've added some new things like a newer light source new video processing. So it's pretty much state of the art when it comes to these ultra short throw projectors. And it delivered great picture quality. And then you can go through here and you can see right there we looked at other notable features and stuff.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I like the fact that you put in these notable features. So for example, some of them still do three. They still do 3D.

[Phil Jones]

Yes, yes.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And that's quite amazing.

[Phil Jones]

I know in some of the bigger it's only if you want 3D by the way, it's ultra short throw or projection. Because TVs don't do it.

[Scott Wilkinson]

TVs don't do it anymore. And amazingly I found it astonishing that some of these projectors actually do Dolby Vision.

[Phil Jones]

Yes. So and I will tell you that that makes a, that makes a difference. Like some projectors that make a huge difference on others it does because some of the projectors are now starting to do dynamic tone mapping. The ability to, instead of taking the metadata, which is often not enough or not there, the projectors will measure the content scene by scene, frame by frame and make tone mapping decisions based on that split second decision. So but a lot of times you're still trying. Hopefully it'll read that when you come to Dolby Vision Dolby Vision, that frame by frame instruction is actually embedded into the metadata.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Phil Jones]

So I can give you an example. The XGME Aura looked great on sdr. But as you started to add higher and higher brightness HDR content, it struggled. But then it supports Dolby Vision. So when you fed Adobe Vision it looked great. So reason why we the way I want to tell people about this is there is no absolute winner for, it's what works best for you. So let me give you an example of that. Dxgme. So if you look at DXGME and you said, you know, I watch a lot, a lot of sdr, have a huge Blu Ray collection, I'm obstacular for colors and I'm watching Blu Rays DVDs, classic movies and I'm a stickler for covers for color. The, the Aura 2 is great at that. But then you go and the only HDR watches on an Apple TV in Dolby Vision. Then the fact that its tone mapping wasn't, wasn't, didn't match everything else isn't as much of a factor. So if you say I like this is. So you have to look at each category and say what matters most to you.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Phil Jones]

I am a high brightness person that watches mostly HDR and I don't really care much about SDR or I don't use the sound system or you know, I, you know, I'm not going to fiddle with the settings. And based on all of those things, the projector that works best may not be the one that won for you and you may pick something different.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Phil Jones]

Based on your, on your needs and your price point.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. One more thing from the final scores, let's put that back up at the top when with the finals you have then aside from the judges pick rank and the point total rank you have the SDR point rank and the HDR point rank. So for example the Hisense PX3 Pro in total points got first place in HDR but second place in SDR. So that's an example of what you're talking about.

[Phil Jones]

Exactly, exactly. You have to I want we Brian is trying to work on kind of a a think of it as a configurator. Will you pick it it asks you, you know, what do you care most about? Are you an HDR guy? You're an F. Are you an HDR person? SDR person? Do you care about sound? Do you care about Adobe? Are you going to use Dolby Vision? Do you care about motion? Are you a sports person? Is it going to be bright room? Is it going to be dark room? And based on that that'll help you pick the right one for you.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right? Well this has been great and I really appreciate your time here with us. Both your website and projectorscreen.com yours is projectorreviews.com both have recaps of this event with that final scorecard that people can go look at. We'll put the links in the show notes. Okay. And I want to thank you so much for being here and telling us all about this wonderful event. I assume you know this is the third one, right? A third annual.

[Phil Jones]

Yes, this was the third annual. I've been trying to convince Brian to do because there are other categories. So the next one would be like we talked about the like the little small compact lifestyle projectors and then maybe a a a shootout with the King Kongs, you know, the big guys. Because everybody wants to know how do all the big guys stack up.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Phil Jones]

But those are actually more challenging because now you're talking to really see the differences. Bigger screens, more interaction between the units.

[Scott Wilkinson]

The projector is farther away from the screen. Yeah.

[Phil Jones]

It's a lot easier to put eight ultra short throws in a room. That is it is to put eight thirty thousand dollar light cannons in a room.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Phil Jones]

So yeah. So but we want to do that as well.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I'll and when you do I'll have you back on the show to talk about it.

[Phil Jones]

Okay, thanks.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Hey, thank you so much. Phil Jones from projectorreviews.com Good friend of mine, longtime associate in the business. So glad to have you on. Thanks so much.

[Phil Jones]

Excellent. And I hopefully we'll talk again soon.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I'm sure we will. So that's it for UST Showdowns. For now anyway. If you have a question for me, you can send it along to htgitwit tv and I love to answer those questions right here on the show. And as always, we thank you for your support of the TWIT Network with your membership in Club Twit, which gives you access to all the Twitch shows in their video forms. You can see all these great graphics we provide for you, and we thank you for considering that until next time, geek out.

[Phil Jones]

It's better over here.

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