Home Theater Geeks 465: CES 2025 Part 1: Trends

Summary

Home Theater Geeks 465: CES 2025 Part 1: Trends – Detailed Summary

Release Date: January 16, 2025

In the inaugural episode of the three-part series "CES 2025 Part 1: Trends," Scott Wilkinson, known as the Home Theater Geek, engages in an insightful conversation with industry journalist and consultant Mike Heiss. Although Scott couldn't attend CES 2025 due to personal health concerns exacerbated by the ongoing fires in the San Fernando Valley, Mike provides a comprehensive overview of the event's key highlights, technological advancements, and emerging trends in the home theater industry.

---

1. Personal Updates and Safety Concerns

The episode begins with a brief personal exchange between Scott and Mike, touching upon the challenges posed by the unprecedented fires in Los Angeles. Mike shares his experience of returning home a day early from CES due to a false power outage alarm, highlighting the real-life impact of the ongoing environmental crises.

Mike Heiss [02:17]: "My wife was without power for three days while I was at the show. Thankfully, the power came back, and we had lots of battery banks."

Scott expresses relief for Mike's safety and underscores the severity of the fires, setting a personal and relatable tone for the episode.

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2. HDMI 2.2: The Biggest (Non-)Story of CES 2025

The conversation delves into the most significant announcement at CES 2025: the introduction of HDMI 2.2. Despite its technical prowess, both Scott and Mike express skepticism about its immediate relevance to the average consumer.

Technical Advancements: HDMI 2.2 boasts a maximum bandwidth of 96 gigabits per second, doubling the previous HDMI 2.1B standard. This enhancement surpasses the current DisplayPort and Thunderbolt standards, which peak at 80 gigabits per second.

Mike Heiss [05:04]: "HDMI is now at 2.1B and HDCP is at 2.3. They’re unparalleled tracks, but independent of one another."

Consumer Relevance: While the increased bandwidth facilitates higher resolutions and frame rates—such as 12K at 60fps—Mike questions the necessity for the typical consumer, likening it to military or medical applications where massive data transfer is crucial.

Scott Wilkinson [08:15]: "It will allow you to do 4K at 480 frames per second or 8K at 240 or 12K at 120."

Both hosts agree that, although impressive, HDMI 2.2's benefits are currently limited to niche markets and high-end applications, making it a "biggest non-story" for the general consumer audience.

Adoption Timeline: Mike anticipates that HDMI 2.2 will first appear in monitors before filtering down to AV receivers and surround processors. He cautions listeners to expect a gradual rollout, potentially taking 18 to 36 months for widespread adoption.

Mike Heiss [10:58]: "They're going to see it first in TVs way before AVRs and surround processors."

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3. AI Integration in TVs: Buzzword Overload and Practical Applications

A significant trend at CES 2025 is the pervasive integration of Artificial Intelligence (AI) within television systems. Scott and Mike critique the overuse of "AI" as a marketing gimmick, emphasizing the need for clear explanations of AI functionalities in products.

Current Applications: AI is primarily utilized in two areas:

• Content Recommendation and User Interface: Enhancing the viewer's experience by tailoring content suggestions and streamlining navigation.
• Picture and Sound Quality Optimization: Automatically adjusting settings to improve visual and auditory output based on the content being viewed.

Mike Heiss [24:06]: "AI is being applied in two primary areas, I would say: content recommendation and user interface being one of them."

Privacy Concerns: The integration of AI raises significant privacy issues, particularly with the addition of far-field microphones and infrared sensors that monitor user presence and activity in the room.

Mike Heiss [24:40]: "They're adding more far field mics and sensors that can determine if there's anybody in the room."

The hosts express apprehension about the potential for data collection and surveillance, noting that manufacturers are attempting to mitigate these concerns by keeping large language models (LLMs) on-device and promoting security features like LG's Knox.

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4. Picture and Sound Quality Enhancements: Dramatic Improvements

One of the standout observations from CES 2025 is the remarkable advancements in picture and sound quality across various TV brands. Mike notes that several manufacturers showcased significant improvements, often comparing current models side-by-side with previous iterations to highlight the enhancements.

Manufacturers Leading the Charge:

• Panasonic: Demonstrated superior picture quality through innovations like micro lens arrays and advanced thermal cooling systems.
• TCL: Focused on backlighting technology, emphasizing smaller LEDs placed closer to the screen to increase brightness and reduce haloing.
• LG Display: Introduced new OLED technologies with notable visual enhancements, although each brand employs its unique "secret sauce" to differentiate their products.

Mike Heiss [37:26]: "Panasonic, if that's where you're trying to go here, was one of the examples in terms of TV panel technology."

The discussion underscores that while hardware improvements are indeed happening, they often involve proprietary technologies that set each brand apart. This segmentation leads consumers to rely on external streaming devices like Roku or Apple TV to bridge user interface preferences with superior display technologies.

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5. Operating Systems and Licensing: WebOS and Tizen Go Multi-Brand

A novel trend observed at CES 2025 is the licensing of proprietary operating systems across multiple TV manufacturers. Traditionally, brands like LG and Samsung guarded their operating systems (WebOS and Tizen, respectively) closely, but now they are licensing these platforms to other brands.

Impact on the Market:

• WebOS Licensing: LG's WebOS is now powering TVs from other manufacturers, expanding its presence beyond LG-branded products.
• Tizen Adoption: Similarly, Samsung's Tizen is also being licensed, allowing other brands to utilize its operating system for enhanced smart TV functionalities.

Mike Heiss [29:33]: "They have, they offer, you can see there on the left, it says powered by WebOS, which is an LG operating system and used to be exclusive to LG."

This shift indicates a move towards standardizing smart TV interfaces across different brands, potentially reducing fragmentation and enhancing user experience. However, it also means that external streaming devices retain their importance, as consumers may prefer specific interfaces that better suit their preferences.

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6. Manufacturer Strategies: Focus on Software and Data Collection

Referencing an article by Sharon Harding on Ars Technica, Scott and Mike discuss how TV manufacturers are increasingly prioritizing software development and data collection over hardware innovation. This strategic pivot is largely driven by the lucrative advertising market, where user data becomes a valuable asset.

Key Points:

• Data-Driven Business Models: TVs are evolving into platforms that collect user data to optimize content delivery and targeted advertising.
• Shift from Hardware to Services: Manufacturers are less focused on differentiating through hardware and more on enhancing software services and app ecosystems.

Scott Wilkinson [32:23]: "She makes the argument that TV makers focus is on software and AI. Their business model is collecting user data and providing content."

The hosts agree that this shift aligns with broader industry trends where "software is the new hardware." However, they also caution that this may lead to consumer concerns over privacy and data security, especially as AI integration deepens.

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7. Industry Outlook and Future Expectations

Looking ahead, Mike shares his predictions on the adoption and impact of HDMI 2.2 and other emerging technologies. He emphasizes that while HDMI 2.2 represents a significant technical leap, its practical applications for consumers will unfold gradually.

Adoption Timeline:

• Monitors First: HDMI 2.2 is expected to appear in computer monitors before making its way into mainstream TVs and AV equipment.
• Gradual Integration: Anticipated over the next 18 to 36 months, following historical precedents set by previous HDMI versions.

Mike Heiss [10:58]: "They're going to see it first in TVs way before AVRs and surround processors."

Technological Evolution: Manufacturers continue to innovate in areas like OLED improvements, backlighting technologies, and AI-driven features. However, the focus remains on balancing advanced functionalities with consumer accessibility and affordability.

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8. Conclusion and Tease for Part Two

As the episode wraps up, Scott and Mike hint at delving deeper into specific TV models, technologies, and hands-on comparisons in the upcoming second part of the CES 2025 series. They encourage listeners to stay tuned for more detailed analyses and expert insights.

Scott Wilkinson [42:24]: "We're going to take a deeper look at those new technologies next time... I hope you will stay tuned for that."

Mike provides information on his publications, inviting listeners to explore his work for further reading and industry insights.

Mike Heiss [42:23]: "You can find my stuff for residential tech today, restechtoday.com or hiddenwires.co.uk."

Finally, Scott thanks Mike for his participation and reminds listeners to engage with the show through questions and Club Twit memberships, promising an informative and engaging continuation in the series.

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Key Takeaways:

• HDMI 2.2 offers significant bandwidth improvements but holds limited immediate consumer value.
• AI integration in TVs is expanding but is met with skepticism regarding its practical benefits and privacy implications.
• Picture and sound quality advancements are notable, with manufacturers employing proprietary technologies to enhance user experience.
• Operating systems like WebOS and Tizen are being licensed across brands, promoting standardization in smart TV interfaces.
• Manufacturer strategies are shifting towards software and data-driven business models, raising important privacy considerations.
• Future episodes promise deeper dives into specific technologies and product comparisons, providing valuable insights for home theater enthusiasts.

Stay tuned for Part Two of the series, where Scott and Mike will explore specific TV models, new technologies, and conduct side-by-side comparisons to help consumers make informed decisions in the evolving home theater landscape.

Transcript

[Scott Wilkinson]

In this episode of Home Theater Geeks, I chat with Mike Heiss, industry journalist and consultant, about his trip to CES 2025. It's the first of three parts, so stay tuned.

[Unknown]

Podcasts you love from people you trust.

[Mike Heiss]

This is tw.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Hey there. Scott Wilkinson here, the home theater geek. Now, I didn't make it to CES 2025 this year, but my good friend, industry journalist and consultant Mike Heiss did. So I've had him. I've asked him to come on the show here to talk about what he saw and heard in the first of three parts. Hey, Mike. Welcome back to the show.

[Mike Heiss]

Hey, Scott. Thanks. Yep. I figured I'd take one for the team, and I haven't done a COVID test yet, but, you know, I avoid. This wasn't a super spreader, but I've spoken to a number of people that got the obligatory CES cold.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's one reason. One reason I didn't go is I'm somewhat respiratory compromised these days. I really want to be careful.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep. Well, well meant. Good idea.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes. Well, first of all. First of all, before we get into the show, I want to mention that, Mike, you live in the San Fernando Valley area of Los Angeles.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes, I do.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Which is experiencing unprecedented fires as we speak. I hope you're safe, and I hope your home is safe.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes, thank you, Scott. I appreciate. My home is safe. I'm in a sort of little. You know, if you didn't know that I live in California, you'd think this was suburban anywhere, USA and like the Brady Bunch, which was actually filmed. Which was actually filmed about, you know, five miles.

[Unknown]

Right, right, right.

[Mike Heiss]

But no, it's a typical little neighborhood, and. And I appreciate when people ask me if they have floods or fires and you hear me being unsafe. It's an apocalypse, then.

[Scott Wilkinson]

It's a real apocalypse. Well, this is more of an apocalypse than I think L. A. Has ever seen.

[Mike Heiss]

Oh, no, for certain. I mean, I know people, as I think you said we're speaking earlier in the day. I know people that have lost their homes. In fact, I actually came home from the show a day early. Thank you, technology. Yeah. My wife was without power for three days while I was at the show. And the power came back, thankfully, and we had lots of battery banks. You know, you got to have those. No Internet. And they sent out a false alert pack. Get ready to go. And after three days without power, my wife sort of said, enough of this. You got to come home. And I did. And thankfully, it was a false alarm. But what a pain in the batude.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, I'm really glad you're safe and your wife is safe and family is safe and your house is not burned down.

[Mike Heiss]

Yeah.

[Scott Wilkinson]

May it remain so.

[Mike Heiss]

Make it so.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Make it so. That's right. Exactly right. Okay, so we're here to talk about ces. You were there for several days.

[Mike Heiss]

More than enough.

[Scott Wilkinson]

It wasn't enough. No. I know you missed some stuff, especially because you had to come home a day early, but you probably would have anyway.

[Mike Heiss]

Well, no, I would have stayed. The one thing I missed was Eureka park, which is always cool as an indicator of what's kind of coming. But I did see, if anybody says AI and a TV to me one more time, I will puke. So I went to all the press conferences, visited all the booths, visited the secret booths.

[Scott Wilkinson]

The secret.

[Mike Heiss]

The secret booths. So I had more than my fill. I think this is somewhere close to my 50th CES.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. Well, let us start with what I'm calling the biggest story, slash non story of CES, which is HDMI 2.2. Now, we know HDMI. It's been around for.

[Mike Heiss]

You know it, you love it, you.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Can'T live without it, and yet you also hate it.

[Mike Heiss]

That's true. But in fairness to hdmi, and actually had an interview with Rob Tobias, who's the head of the HDMI licensing group. I said I've been saying for years, it's a shame that a lot of the stuff that Stevenuti, if you remember who used to have.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I do, yeah, sure.

[Mike Heiss]

Was always pilloried about, they get blamed for stuff that HDCP is really the cause.

[Unknown]

Right, Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Which is the copy protection embedded within hdmi.

[Mike Heiss]

And not to jump ahead, I did ask Rob. HDMI is now at 2.1 B and HDCP is at 2.3 there. They're unparalleled tracks, but independent of one another. And there will not, as best we know as of now, not be a new HDCP standard that's sort of staying as is.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Wow. Okay. Well, that's interesting to know.

[Mike Heiss]

That must mean the suits over in the Black Tower are happy.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right? So here's the first graphic I wanted to show. Keith's 5. 21 in the chat room is saying that has a modest bit faster than DP2.1B. And that is true. And Thunderpants 5 and Thunderpants 5. Thunderbolt. We're jokingly calling it HDMI 2.1. What we have had up for the last year or two has A maximum bandwidth of 48 gigabits per second. HDMI 2.2 doubles that to 96 gigabits per second which is in fact faster than DisplayPort and Thunderbolt currently at 80 gigabits per second. So, so that's, that's quite a bump up in speed.

[Mike Heiss]

It is. And the big question is why? Well, in the consumer, in the consumer electronics world.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

If you're talking About Whiz Bang $750 Nvidia cards and things of that nature. Yes. You're fine. If you're talking about medical imaging or things of that nature, sure.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

Is it going to make. If you're, and I saw Joe Kane, you know, if you're Joe Kane and you. Oh yeah, you know, 1632 bit blah to Blata. But there's no content so it doesn't, it doesn't matter for the consumer. It's just not going to make any.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Difference in consumer video, consumer television and movies.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Scott Wilkinson]

It's not going to make any difference difference. Now it does allow higher resolutions and frame rates and we have a graphic here, sample and sample rate.

[Mike Heiss]

So there you go. So if you want. There's the eye chart. Let me see. This is an eye or that eye, your right eye. And read this. If you want 12K 60 frames per second, 444. Yeah. You're going to need this. But who's, what are you?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Who needs. Yeah, who needs that?

[Mike Heiss]

Well, if you've got, if you're an esports person and you've got a fancy schmancy Nvidia card or, or similar, it is important to those folks and I, I get it but I think for the average consumer it's, it's just not, it just. There's, there's nothing there.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, this is why I call it the biggest story slash non story of CES. I mean it will allow you to do 4k at 480 frames per second.

[Mike Heiss]

Well.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Or you know, 8k at 240 or 12k at 120.

[Mike Heiss]

And again if you're in a military, you know, near to eye kind of thing, that's cool. If they're. Well, the requirement is if you need to get a lot of data from here to there really, really, really quickly and a lot of it. Here's the way to do it. But do we want to talk about the buts?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Always.

[Mike Heiss]

Okay, so first of all, they announced it. The standard isn't done yet.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

The standard will not be done till sometime in the next couple of months. So until the Standard is done. You can't make chips.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

So not only is there no standard, there's a standard, but there really isn't a standard.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, it's probably a preliminary standard, right?

[Mike Heiss]

And. And you could start making chips, but.

[Scott Wilkinson]

You wouldn't want to. You wouldn't want to until you knew for sure, every last detail.

[Mike Heiss]

Well, because you can only go. And I went through, over the years, I've gone through this from 1.1 to 1.1.0 to 1.1 to 1.3 to 1.4. And it's, it's terrible because with the increased bandwidth, you can't monkey around with this stuff. And once you start cutting the. You know, when you get the die that makes the chips, you just can't be fooling. Oops, we changed the standards. Well, kiss that $15 million goodbye and pretend that you're somebody in the division that is in charge of these chips or one of the chip guys. Would you. And I've done this. Would you like to go up to the suits at the top floor and say, hey, guys, I need about $50 million?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

Well, like, why? For the new HDMI. But we did that a couple of years ago. What do you want to do it again? Why are we going to make money? There's the key right there, you know, so it's gonna happen where you will probably see it first. Because these guys cut new dies more frequently are in the SOCs, the all in one system on chips from companies like mtk or when we get to the TV section, all those processors. My processor is better than your processor.

[Scott Wilkinson]

We're gonna get there in part two.

[Mike Heiss]

Yeah, that's where you'll see it first. So you may well see it in TV's way before. Cool your jets, folks. Before you see it in AVRs and surround processors. It's going to be easily, easily 18 to as many as 36 months. Remember 2.0?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, it took a while.

[Mike Heiss]

Remember 2.1?

[Scott Wilkinson]

It took a while.

[Mike Heiss]

Took a while. So use that as, you know, the kind of expectation that you should have.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep.

[Mike Heiss]

But they showed a prototype of the cable. Oh, wait, what am I going to.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Connect it to now? It's a new cable. It's a different cable.

[Mike Heiss]

Same connector.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Same connector.

[Mike Heiss]

And I know I'll be very disappointed because you've got a pretty educated group of folk watching this. And no, they will not add a locking mechanism. And somebody asked Rob, somebody asked Rob Tobias about this at the press conference. And having a locking mechanism, as long as it doesn't get in the way of interchangeability is okay, but HDMI will not mandate any change to the connector. And it's like, where are my notes? It's like, remember they used to have the signs over McDonald's a billion served.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, sure.

[Mike Heiss]

So they said to date There have been 14 billion with a B HDMI devices shipped.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Wow.

[Mike Heiss]

So they don't want, you know that there's a big legacy issue. So there will be new cables. The cables will be backwards compatible, but clearly not front compatible. Cable that you just bought last week for 48 ain't gonna work for 96. Yep. And. And the increased speed and bandwidth will mean that it's going to be harder to go longer distances.

[Unknown]

Right, exactly.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Somebody. Keith's 512 in the chat room made that exact point. So if you go with a longer cable, it might reduce the bandwidth, but.

[Mike Heiss]

You can use active cables. And they said, yeah, you want to use active cables, but you'll need new chips for the active cable. Yeah, you'll need new chips if you're going HD based T, which I don't think could probably do 2.1 in many cases now anyway. So you've got to look at what you need and what you're going to get out of this.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

If you're going to hold off as a, for somebody who is involved in this market in other, other parts of my, my life, don't be waiting.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, don't be waiting.

[Mike Heiss]

Yeah, don't be waiting. Because I was speaking to another longtime industry buddy of mine and he said I was working at retail when 2.0 was announced and sales dropped for 18 months of a major, not, not one of the brands that I work for, but another, another major brand.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

And he, and he said, you know, why did, why did they do this now?

[Unknown]

Right, right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I do want to mention two things. Two feature things in HDMI 2.2. One is called Latency Indication Protocol, or LIP.

[Mike Heiss]

As in sync.

[Scott Wilkinson]

As in LIP sync.

[Mike Heiss]

Oh, that's. Yeah, that's the graphic. So the best way to describe this is for those who know what EDID.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Is, which stands for Extended Display identification. It indicates it's metadata that show that reveals what the capabilities of a display are.

[Mike Heiss]

The device at the source, the device at the start and the sync, the device at the end. Talk to each other. Yo, Mr. Source, what can you do? Me? Well, Mr. TV or Ms. TV, I can do this. What can you do? And they kind of talk to each other and figure out what the best way to communicate and what's the best quality they can deliver. So picture that for audio and not just for the type of audio. But this is also meant to reduce latency.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Scott Wilkinson]

The dreaded lip sync issue, where, you know, you see somebody say something and then you hear what they're saying, you know, milliseconds later, 200 milliseconds later, this will reduce that. And that's a good thing, I'd say.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes. And I mean, and the funny thing, because I can't help myself is I asked Rob Tobias, did they come up with a name and then realize, hey, this has a cool acronym, lip, or did they come up with the acronym and find the words to make it fit? And he's a little bit too serious.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now the other thing you mentioned to me that I didn't realize that 2.2 will not have what's called alt mode.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes. Well, let me just one thing on lip. LIP is metadata, right? Which is data about the data for those who aren't that deep into that stuff. So I asked him a couple of key questions. Can you, will you be able to upgrade from 2.1 to 2.2? And the answer is no way. The only time that was done was when 1.4 came out. The circuits that were in the PlayStation 3 were designed to have 1.4 blown in. That was a one time only. That will never ever, ever happen again. However, since WIP is metadata, as long as the system can pass it, that is a thing that is being introduced with 2.2. But if the source and the sink both talk lip, I guess you're giving me lip.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Give me lip.

[Mike Heiss]

That if they both talk lip, the fact that your AVR processor or sound bar in the middle are not 2.2, that's okay as long as the devices out at the other ends can, can listen and sense the metadata. So that's, that's good. So can be carried through lip. No updates. Alt mode. Now I've got my little Dell xps, the second one that I've been using it and I use it when I do presentations or work on the road. And it has a USB C on either, either side. And to make the computers thinner, they take away the U and some of the ultras, they take away the HDMI port, right? So how do I get hdmi? I'm going to Barcelona. I'm going to Barcelona to do isc. That'll be cool with home theater geek. And they're going to be beaucoup, they big displays. Because if Avixa, which is like the cedia of the institutional and commercial world. If Avixa and Cedia had a love child, it would be this show ise. And in fact both of those two groups own it. So I'm going to do my Mikey shows there. And that is famous for much more emphasis on large displays. So we'll see if there's anything to report. Right, But I digress. I totally forgot what the heck I was talking about.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Alt Mode.

[Mike Heiss]

Alt Mode. So when I take my computer on the road and I want to hook it up to a connect a projector.

[Scott Wilkinson]

TV or a projector.

[Mike Heiss]

Projector, sure. You plug your USB C in and you've got a little widget or your phone, I can, you know, as a backup. I store my presentations on the cloud and I've got a Pixel with a usb and the Pixel eights and nines now support Alt mode, which it didn't at first. So I hook up a little thing connected the projector and bingo, I'm done.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Basically what Alt mode does is it lets you send HDMI data out USB C directly to a projector or a display or a TV or a display or whatever.

[Mike Heiss]

And I asked Rob about that and he said no or certainly they got other to go other stuff to get to first. Other excrement, yes, deal with first. Oh man, no Alt Mode. But again, it's a question of use case people get caught up in the technology as much as you and I both kind of live by that.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Hey man, we're home theater geeks.

[Mike Heiss]

But I'm not going to buy. Well, but there are people with home HTC 8 HD PCs, which is something different. But you can hook up your HD HTPC to the display of your choice if the video cards got an HDMI adapter or a jack or via Alt mode. But when I take my XPS and throw it in my briefcase and I get to wear Barcelona, I'm gonna hook it up. What do you call it? Using Alt mode. Good enough. I don't need. I don't need 96 to do the Mikey show.

[Unknown]

Right, right.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay, well, so HDMI 2.2, big story @ the show. Not important for consumers of TV content at this time.

[Mike Heiss]

At this time, it'll come to monitors. Clearly, it will come to monitors first. But then there's the crossover between, as somebody in the chat room asked about smaller size TVs before we started, there are people using 32 inch or 42 inch or 48 inch standard TVs as monitors.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

And so it'll be necessary there particularly. And then, you know, here's a tease. Particularly when the TV sets are going to 144, 160, and the sky's the limit.

[Unknown]

Right, Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, we're going to get into that next to the end, part two. But for this part, the second area that I want to cover with you is sort of a bigger picture. Look at the TV industry as you saw at ces.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And in particular, you, you mentioned to me before we, before we were on the air that manufacturers don't make any.

[Mike Heiss]

Money selling TVs, and many of them never did.

[Scott Wilkinson]

The margins are razor thin.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes. And to some extent for the retailers as well, that's great. For the consumers, unless they have tariffs, Great. For the consumer. Another subject, but it's something to watch out. I don't want to get into the politics.

[Scott Wilkinson]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Mike Heiss]

But, but, but, but I simply want to say that, be aware of that because it will have an impact if they increase the tariffs on the price.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Of TVs from China or wherever. Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

Even for Mexico. TVs are made in Mexico.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

[Mike Heiss]

Assembled in Mexico.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay. So as you said, I think before we. If you hear the word AI one more time in regards to your gonna puke. It was the huge buzz at CES all over the TV market.

[Mike Heiss]

And it was. And I've been sort of saying for the past year or so. I am clearly old and I'm old enough to remember digital ready speakers. Did the speaker know that the content that was being fed was digital? And the answer is digital no. Has anybody seen. When you. If you're shopping for an antenna, an HDTV or next gen ready antenna. Antenna is kind of stupid. It doesn't know.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

It knows that there's RF and it, you know when you want to hope that there's enough, but it doesn't care what's in it.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

And that is sort of a similar thing. I can do a lot of things, it can do a lot of good things, but I think it's being overused. Perhaps after this CES maybe people will come to their senses and perhaps describe what it is that AI is doing in a particular product. So we don't have AI ready TVs.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, but we sort of do. I mean, AI is being applied in two everything primary areas, I would say content recommendation and user interface being one of them.

[Mike Heiss]

Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And picture and sound quality optimization being the other.

[Mike Heiss]

Correct. With sort of a sidebar, if you will, of the increased use of the TV once again. And they've been saying this for the last three or four years, but this year it's really going to happen with home control and telehealth and pet health and exercise and. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Wilkinson]

To the point where they are. The TV manufacturers are now adopting these AI large language model algorithms. LG and Samsung are going with Microsoft Copilot.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And Hisense and TCL are going with Google Gemini.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep. And they're adding more far field mics.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep.

[Mike Heiss]

And they're adding sensors. And not just sensors like a webcam, but sensors that are IR kind of IR cameras, where it's not so much to see a webcam, of course, to say, oh yeah, hi grandma, but a sensor to determine if there's anybody in the room or in the case of hell, telehealth is the person who's in the room moving.

[Unknown]

Right. Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And this is just going to keep getting more and more and the implication is clearly that apps and content are what are important to TV makers, not the hardware itself.

[Mike Heiss]

Right. But you're tying that in, particularly in the content recommendation. If we want to watch some streaming show.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

Severance. Weird.

[Scott Wilkinson]

But haven't watched it yet.

[Mike Heiss]

It's really weird. And it's on. Which by the way, there's something in one of the groups that I'm, you know, involved in where they hired some guy that is fitting new TVs or new LCD panels into old CRT monitors because, because first of all, it's hard to get the old CRT monitors to work. But it's set pieces.

[Scott Wilkinson]

In the, in the production of these.

[Mike Heiss]

You've got your old, you can't get an old NEC Multi Sync monitor anymore.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

Or even an old MacBook or Maca smacker.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. Or a Sony Vega TV.

[Mike Heiss]

Well. Or an old, you know, 27 inches. The old Zenith. Yeah, right. And there are people that restore those. But, you know, so there's a lot of that going on. The content recommendation is, Michael, you know all about this stuff. We want to watch severance. Okay, what device do I use in? Is it on Apple tv? Is it platform? Is it on, Is it on Netflix? Is it on one of so many of these things? And that's where the combination of voice control, AI and contact recognition and recommendation is really, really where this will come into play.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Now one interesting thing you told me was that some of the manufacturers, they're operating system, their OS is now being adopted on other manufacturers. This is new. I had never heard of this. Normally manufacturers take their software and they guard it closely and they say we're the only ones that have this.

[Mike Heiss]

And this is, this is an eye chart to see how old the people in the chat room are. Pro Scan, formerly a subject high brand of RCA in the days when RCA was rca.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

And now it's just a licensed brand that the people who are doing RCA TV sets are using. So Pro Skin makes you want a Roku. I got a Roku. You want to Google it. Not all, by the way. Not all in the same set. There's only one. But there are people that prefer, like a lot of people prefer Roku because although it's getting more so now, they're kind of, they've got the most stuff and they're kind of the Swiss army knife. Right, but. And they're somewhat into home control, but only for their own devices. If you like that, you like Roku. I've got a Roku TV here. If you like more of the Google infrastructure, you've got Google.

[Scott Wilkinson]

But what was important in that graphic though was WebOS. Yes, WebOS. They have, they offer, you can see there on the left, it says powered by WebOS, which is an LG operating system and used to be exclusive to lg.

[Mike Heiss]

Whoops. So yes, and, and LG is licensing just as Samsung is licensing Tizen, which is their system. So you're going to need, not that you're going to need part of this is what also makes the case. If you were to say, and somebody like you or like the audience here would say, I want an LG or a Samsung set because I like the display technology and boy, is that picture really good. So you buy the set because you like the video quality and some of the other features, but you abhor the os. And that's the reason why people will still buy roku streamers, Apple TV 4Ks.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Or the external streamer boxes, or the.

[Mike Heiss]

Google, if you like. If you like the LG or Samsung sets, but you want the Google interface, you buy a Google TV with Chromecast. A little white occupant things.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

So there still is a need for those devices, but it's all being driven by the, you know, by the ad people. They're not selling TVs, they're selling eyeballs.

[Unknown]

Right, right, exactly.

[Mike Heiss]

So they're all in the ad sales business. And that's the reason. That's the reason why they're doing it. Why ask me? Did you see the new Vizio sets at ces?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Hey, Mike, did you see the new Vizio sets at ces?

[Mike Heiss]

Gee, Scott, I'm glad you asked. No. And they haven't exhibited a CES on the floor actually ever. But they used to have a huge. In past years, I think you may have used to have them at the Win. They'd have a big display of all.

[Scott Wilkinson]

The sets, a big ballroom full of.

[Mike Heiss]

Stuff, because they were selling them to lots of dealers. Yeah, they now have one dealer, Walmart, because Walmart owns Vizio now. I know that they had a suite in a different area in the C space, which was over at the Aria, where they had all the ad sales people. But they're interested in selling TV sets because they're interested in selling eyeballs. And that's, you know, that's why they weren't there.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah. I wanted to point out an interesting article I found on Ars Technica, which is titled why I'm disappointed with the TVs at CES 2025.

[Mike Heiss]

Did you know that there's a pirate version of our Technica?

[Scott Wilkinson]

No.

[Mike Heiss]

Technica.

[Scott Wilkinson]

All right, all right. This article is by Sharon Harding and we're going to put the. The link in the show notes. She makes the argument that TV makers focus is on software and AI. Their business model is collecting user data and providing content, which is what we've been talking about here all this whole time. She. She particularly rails. One thing she rails against is the LG that has a new remote. It used to be Called the Magic Remote. It's now called the AI Magic Remote. And it has no input select button, which I would rail against too.

[Mike Heiss]

That would make me nuts.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Nuts, absolutely. And she points out, as you pointed out earlier, that more TVs are adding far field microphones to hear voice commands from across the room, which raises concerns about privacy.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep. Did you say AI?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Mike Heiss]

I'm sorry, Keith. Sorry, sorry.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay. And you had to puke. I apologize.

[Mike Heiss]

That was, that was what the wrestling was about.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay, all right, all right.

[Mike Heiss]

Okay. So yeah, it's the privacy is a concern and some of the large language model stuff. Just as you clearly will have the same concerns about phones and what they brought up. Samsung promoted Knox K and ox, which is not a radio station or it may be, that's their security system. And LG said the same. And a lot of the LLM stuff, the large language model is on device. So that's not all of it. But that's one of the ways that they're trying to assuage the concerns about privacy. But you know, or the answer is you can, you know, put a piece of tape over the webcam and you can or you cannot connect the TV to the, to the Internet. I mean that's the, you know, but.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Then that defeats the purpose of a lot of what they're trying to sell.

[Mike Heiss]

Then get this, then get the Zenith out of the closet. I mean, but get a next gen TV adapter. But we'll talk about that later. Right. But I mean, no, there's no, there's no perfect solution to this.

[Scott Wilkinson]

There isn't, there isn't.

[Mike Heiss]

The manufacturers. I, I will say in fairness, the manufacturers are aware of it and in fact there's one. Can I answer a chat room question?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Sure.

[Mike Heiss]

Keith's 512 says the UI can be important. The UI can be important. That is why I picked Panasonic for my TVs in the. Here in the UK as the, as the new LG TV is sometimes a bit slow on its UI. The Panasonics which looked spectacular that they showed a CES had Fire TV at the OS. Are you kidding me? Oh, what are you kidding? Oh good. Because I love to see new things about what Amazon is doing. Give me a break. But that's why you still might want to have an Apple TV or a Roku or a whatever.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

So. But I think that that's something that got overlooked in a lot of the coverage. But that's why the people watch this are smart.

[Unknown]

Right.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

So the author of this article thinks that AI used to improve picture and sound quality is a good thing. And I do too.

[Mike Heiss]

And it is.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And in fact you saw she also mentioned she'd prefer manufacturers work on improving picture and sound quality. And you saw some examples of exactly that.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes. And Panasonic, if that's where you're trying to go here.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep.

[Mike Heiss]

Was one of the examples in terms of TV panel technology for the last year or two, LG just LG display, which is a separate division of the larger corporation that makes the panels that are used by many TV brands, including Sony and LG. And for the OLEDs, Samsung, that's LG display as opposed to LG. LG electronics, that's the brand.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

LG display has a new type of OLED that is beautiful. The sets are beautiful, but each company uses different improvements. Their own secret sauce. You know, do you want your burgers flame broiled or do you want the Big Mac sauce? That's why you might buy a Burger king or.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Or McDonald's. Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

So the Panasonic. Excuse me, The Panasonic not only uses this new technology which is replaced for the time being, the mla, the micro lens array, but they have another thermal cooling and some other processing advancements. And that's why they think that their sets look better and they really did look good than the LGs, which by the way also look very good. But the one disadvantage of CES is you can't see them side by side. So.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

Ask me which one look better. Show me both of them side by side, both calibrated and both playing the same material, which we'll see at the.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Flat panel shootout later this year.

[Mike Heiss]

One presumes.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, one presumes. Now, you did mention to me that, you know, you did see improvements in picture quality which you've been mentioning, dramatic even, which is surprising to me. I mean, usually it's incremental, but you're, you're talking about dramatic improvements. And you said that a number of booths had their last year's model side by side with this year's model and maybe even a few years ago.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes. Well, LG in the secret room showed this year's versus last year's. And there was a very significance in the picture quality. It was pretty good. What TCL showed in their booth where they were talking about the backlighting technology. They didn't show the TVs, they showed the backlights. So lots of, you know, few zones, bigger LEDs, more zones, smaller LEDs, way more zones, way smaller LEDs. And it is those technologies that deliver the better picture quality. Like TCL was claiming smaller L mini LEDs closer to the screen.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Mike Heiss]

And that makes them brighter because. And they said you and I would always in these discussions talk about how many dimming zones.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

People weren't talking about dimming zone. Well, I've got 8,342 dimming zones. You didn't hear that this year. But they were talking about the overall brightness and quality or what TCL was saying, less haloing, which is important. So that's the technology behind it that each of the brands is trying to promote to say that ours is better. At the end of the day, it's these guys.

[Unknown]

Right, Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, we're going to take a deeper look at those new technologies next time. And so I think now is the time to say goodbye. Now's the time to say goodbye until next time. When we get into part two, when we will discuss more specific. The TV manufacturer, the TV models and technologies that were introduced. And I hope you will stay tuned for that. Mike, where can folks find your stuff?

[Mike Heiss]

You can find my stuff for residential tech today, restechtoday.com or hidden wires, which is mostly European based publication, but if you want to see some houses that you wish you could afford. Ford and. And they do cover the, the technology scene as well, because I write for them and that's hiddenwires.co.uk and oh, thank you for the plug there.

[Scott Wilkinson]

There we go. We have, we have a little, they have the homepage on the screen there now and that's, that's a lot of great stuff in those publications contributed to by my guest Mike Heiss. Thanks so much for being here, Mike.

[Mike Heiss]

Thanks a lot, Scott.

[Scott Wilkinson]

All right, we will see you in part two. Now if you have a question for me, you can send it right along to htgwit tv. I love answering the questions on the air here, so I look forward to getting your questions. And as always, we thank you for your support of the Twit network with your membership in Club Twit, which gives you access to all the Twitch shows in their video format. So you can see all the great graphics and stuff that we show you. And thanks so much for considering that. Until next time, geek out.

[Unknown]

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