Home Theater Geeks 466: CES 2025 Part 2: TVs

Summary

Home Theater Geeks 466: CES 2025 Part 2: TVs – Detailed Summary

In the second part of their discussion on CES 2025, Scott Wilkinson, the Home Theater Geek, engages with Mike Heiss, an industry journalist and consultant, to delve deep into the latest advancements and trends in television technology showcased at the event. This episode provides an extensive overview of the innovations presented by leading TV manufacturers, shifts in market dynamics, and emerging standards shaping the future of home entertainment.

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1. Shifting Market Dynamics: Rise of Hisense and TCL

Scott Wilkinson initiates the conversation by highlighting the major players in the TV industry present at CES 2025: Hisense, LG, Samsung, and TCL. Notably absent from the new TV showcases was Sony, which instead spotlighted a cool car ([00:29] Scott Wilkinson).

Mike Heiss challenges the traditional perception of Hisense and TCL as second-tier brands, stating, "Not anymore" ([01:33] Mike Heiss). Scott concurs, asserting that these brands have ascended to first-tier status due to their innovative features and competitive pricing ([01:35] Scott Wilkinson).

Hisense's Breakthroughs

Hisense unveiled several cutting-edge TVs:

• 136x136 Inch MicroLED Display: Featuring direct view MicroLED technology with 4K resolution, Dolby Vision, HDR10, and HDMI 2.1. This model boasts gaming features like Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) and All-Motion Compensation (ALM), covering 95% of the BT.2020 color gamut and achieving up to 10,000 nits of peak brightness ([02:34] Scott Wilkinson).

  "It's 4K, it's 97% of the BT 2020 color gamut, and it goes up to 10,000 nits of peak brightness."
  — Scott Wilkinson ([03:26])

• 163 Inch MicroLED TV: Mirrors the specifications of the 136-inch model, emphasizing Hisense's commitment to scaling MicroLED technology for larger displays ([05:31] Scott Wilkinson).

• LQ9ust Ultra Short Throw Projector: A three-laser projector with 5,000 lumens output and 110% of the BT.2020 color space, capable of filling a 150-inch screen. It integrates seamlessly with ambient light-rejecting (ALR) screens suitable for showroom environments ([10:31] Scott Wilkinson).

• Integrated Rollable Screen Projector: An ultra short throw projector housed within a motorized, rollable screen case, allowing for a clean, wire-free setup ([11:07] Scott Wilkinson).

Mike Heiss praises Hisense's advancements, noting their strategic focus on improving picture quality and integrating innovative features that cater to both enthusiasts and mainstream consumers.

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2. LG’s EVO OLED Lineup and Wireless Innovations

LG presented its 2025 lineup under the EVO OLED banner, which includes the high-end M5 and the slightly more affordable G5 models. These TVs showcase enhanced brightness, faster refresh rates up to 165Hz, and support for Nvidia's G-Sync and AMD's FreeSync technologies, catering to the gaming community ([13:36] Scott Wilkinson).

Key innovations include:

• Voice-Recognizing Remote: The new remote allows for more conversational commands, leveraging AI integration for a more intuitive user experience ([14:29] Mike Heiss).

• Zero Connect Box: This groundbreaking accessory transmits audio and video signals wirelessly to the TV, significantly reducing cable clutter for wall-mounted setups. Its design ensures minimal visibility of remaining wires, enhancing the sleek aesthetic of modern living spaces ([15:20] Scott Wilkinson).

  "They were so meticulous about that that the wires that are there or for the power, there's a recess in the back of the set so that you can mount it as close to the wall as possible."
  — Mike Heiss ([16:12])

These features position LG as a frontrunner in combining high-quality display technology with user-centric design enhancements.

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3. Panasonic’s Resurgence with OLED and Mini LED Technologies

Panasonic made a notable comeback at CES 2025, re-establishing itself as a significant player in the TV market. They introduced:

• Z95B OLED: Utilizing a new four-layer panel structure previously discussed with LG, this model delivers outstanding picture quality, both in controlled environments and under ambient lighting conditions present on the show floor ([17:49] Mike Heiss).

  "They've moved to a four-layer OLED structure and are doing away with the microlens array, which was their big technological feature of the last couple of years."
  — Scott Wilkinson ([18:57])

• W95B Mini LED LCD TV: This model features two and a half times the number of dimming zones compared to its predecessor, although it still falls below a thousand dimming zones. Panasonic acknowledges that the conversation around dimming zones is evolving, emphasizing overall picture quality over mere zone count ([19:05] Scott Wilkinson).

  "It's not just about the dimming zones, which is true. And it's about how does the picture look?"
  — Mike Heiss ([20:36])

Interestingly, Panasonic opts to use phosphorus instead of quantum dots in their mini LED technology, a strategic choice possibly driven by cost considerations or material performance ([21:19] Scott Wilkinson).

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4. Samsung’s OLED and Emerging Micro LED Ventures

Samsung continued to push the envelope with its OLED offerings and hinted at future Micro LED technologies:

• QD OLED Series: The S95F model stands out with Quantum Dot OLED technology, achieving peak brightness levels of up to 4,000 nits—a first for OLEDs. Alongside, models like the S90F and S85F offer regular OLED experiences with refresh rates reaching 165Hz ([22:39] Mike Heiss).

  "The QD OLED. The S95F can get up to 4,000 nits of peak brightness, which I've never heard an OLED could do that before."
  — Scott Wilkinson ([22:39])

• Micro LED Backlight: In a secret showcase, Samsung introduced a Micro LED backlight featuring RGB LEDs, enhancing contrast and color accuracy through individual cell control. While not yet available commercially, this technology signifies Samsung's ongoing investment in next-generation display solutions ([24:19] Mike Heiss).

• Wireless One Connect: Samsung unveiled its version of the wireless connection box, facilitating a wire-free setup by transmitting audio and video signals without the need for multiple cables behind the TV ([26:23] Scott Wilkinson).

Mike Heiss underscores Samsung's dual approach of refining existing OLED technologies while exploring innovative Micro LED solutions poised to redefine display standards.

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5. TCL’s Vertical Integration and Affordable Mini LED TVs

TCL showcased its vertically integrated approach, developing in-house mini LED technology through its division CSOT (China Star Optical). This strategy allows TCL to maintain control over their display manufacturing process, ensuring high quality and competitive pricing.

• QM6K Model: A Quantum Dot-based mini LED LCD TV, the QM6K demonstrates over a 50% increase in brightness, 500 dimming zones, and covers 98% of the DCI P3 color gamut. TCL strategically priced this high-end set at $750 for 50 inches, making advanced display technology more accessible.

  "They claim to have increased brightness by over 50%, 500 dimming zones, 98% of DCI P3 color gamut."
  — Scott Wilkinson ([29:27] Mike Heiss)

• QM891G: Touted as the world's largest QD mini LED TV at 115 inches, this model exemplifies TCL's commitment to pushing the boundaries of display size without exorbitant costs ([30:35] Mike Heiss).

Mike Heiss remarks on the competitive pricing, noting the significant reduction from historical high prices, such as the original Panasonic 103-inch plasma TV, which commanded six-figure prices ([30:10] Mike Heiss).

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6. Sharp’s Return and the Role of Operating Systems

Sharp, once a dominant force in the TV market, made a noteworthy return at CES 2025, powered by TiVo. This partnership allows Sharp to leverage established OS platforms without developing proprietary systems.

• TiVo Integration: By adopting TiVo’s operating system, Sharp focuses on delivering quality video processing while outsourcing ad sales and other OS-related functionalities ([35:04] Mike Heiss).

• Upcoming Models: Sharp is set to introduce TVs with the Zumo X UMO operating system, a joint venture between Charter and Comcast, aimed at enhancing integration for cable subscribers ([37:08] Mike Heiss).

Mike Heiss discusses the variety of operating systems available, including Roku, Google TV, and Fire TV, emphasizing consumer preference for picture quality over OS features. He suggests that while some users might favor specific interfaces, the overarching priority remains the visual performance of the TV ([38:49] Scott Wilkinson).

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7. Next Gen TV and HDR10+ Adoption

The conversation shifts towards ATSC 3.0 (Next Gen TV), highlighting its enhanced broadcasting capabilities:

• Advanced Features: ATSC 3.0 supports higher resolutions, improved HDR standards like Dolby Vision and HDR10+, and interactive applications, enhancing the over-the-air viewing experience ([38:55] Mike Heiss).

• Device Support: While integrated into newer TVs, external receiver boxes remain essential for broader compatibility. Brands like Zapper, Zinwell, and Adth offer these ATSC 3.0 receiver boxes, providing consumers with access to Next Gen features without purchasing brand-new TVs ([40:11] Mike Heiss).

• HDR10+ Expansion: Continuous adoption by major content providers such as Disney Plus, Apple TV, Paramount, and YouTube underscores the growing importance of HDR10+ in delivering superior picture quality ([41:52] Scott Wilkinson).

  "HDR10+ was continuing to gain ground at CES."
  — Mike Heiss ([41:52])

Mike Heiss emphasizes the importance of metadata in HDR formats, which allows broadcasters to encode content dynamically, ensuring optimal picture quality across different devices and content types ([42:04] Mike Heiss).

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8. Final Insights and Future Outlook

As the discussion draws to a close, Scott Wilkinson reflects on the plethora of advancements showcased at CES 2025, expressing enthusiasm for the future of TV technology:

"Then the bottom line in terms of video, what we've been talking about for this part two is, yes, there were some significant, even without cleaning off my glasses, ability to see improvements."
— Mike Heiss ([43:46] Scott Wilkinson)

Looking ahead, Scott invites listeners to tune into part three of the series, which will focus on audio innovations, promising a continuation of the in-depth exploration of home theater advancements.

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Key Takeaways

• Hisense and TCL have solidified their positions as first-tier TV brands through innovative features and competitive pricing.

• LG continues to enhance its EVO OLED lineup with higher refresh rates and wireless connectivity solutions like the Zero Connect Box.

• Panasonic is making a strong comeback with advanced OLED and mini LED technologies, emphasizing overall picture quality over technical specifications like dimming zones.

• Samsung is advancing both OLED and Micro LED technologies, with a focus on peak brightness and wireless integration.

• TCL's vertical integration allows for high-quality, affordable mini LED TVs, making advanced technologies more accessible to consumers.

• Sharp's partnership with TiVo and introduction of the Zumo X UMO OS signify a strategic pivot to maintain relevance in a competitive market.

• ATSC 3.0 and HDR10+ are gaining traction, enhancing over-the-air broadcasting standards and HDR content delivery.

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This comprehensive overview encapsulates the key discussions from Home Theater Geeks 466: CES 2025 Part 2: TVs, providing listeners and technology enthusiasts with a clear understanding of the current landscape and future directions in television technology.

Transcript

[Scott Wilkinson]

In this episode of Home Theater Geeks, I continue my discussion with Mike Heiss about what he saw at CES 2025. So stick around.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

Hey there, Scott Wilkinson here, the home theater geek. In this episode I continue my conversation with Mike Heiss, industry journalist and consultant who just got back from CES 2025. This time we're going to focus on TVs. Hey, Mike, welcome back.

[Mike Heiss]

How you doing, Scott?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Hey, doing good. So let's get deep in the weeds here, shall we? The geeky weeds.

[Mike Heiss]

First of all, not geeking out.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, we're geeking in. Yeah, exactly. First of all, I want to mention we have basically four major brands of TV that are. That are at CES 5 if you count Sony, but they didn't show any new TVs at CES.

[Mike Heiss]

But they had a cool car.

[Scott Wilkinson]

But they had a cool car. And Hisense, lg, Samsung and tcl. Correct. And many people would say Hisense and TCL are second tier brands.

[Mike Heiss]

Not anymore.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I don't. I agree with you. I don't think so. I think they have become first tier brands.

[Mike Heiss]

And if you look at the market share which they did not hesitate. They did not hesitate to point out. I'm looking in my notes here. There, there are months or quarters when they're number one. They're number one.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

I mean they're really, they're pushing the envelope both in terms of features and technology. And they're not a cheapo. Yes, you can still buy them at what do you call it? You can buy them at the warehouse at Costco and Sam's Club. But as an example, TCL was at Cedia for the first time this year. And well, with 115 set as set as you might imagine. But no, these are real serious TV sets.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. And still at prices that are somewhat less than lg, Samsung and Sony.

[Mike Heiss]

Well, I mean you have to compare feature set and technology to feature set and technology.

[Scott Wilkinson]

True enough.

[Mike Heiss]

The answer is they are real value for the price and they're going to give some of the other legacy brands a run for their money.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So let's start with Hisense. They showed a number of really cool things. One was the 136mx136 inch microled display, direct view microled display, 4K Dolby Vision and HDR10 HDMI 2.1. We're not going to see any 2.2 sets this year, please. With, with gaming features like VRR and Allm, variable refresh rate. And automatic. I forget what Allm stands for.

[Mike Heiss]

Automatic. Whoa, wait and see. Mishikas.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. And those are for Gamers. It covers 95% of BT 2020 color gamut and it goes up to 10,000 nits of peak brightness. Holy smokes.

[Mike Heiss]

Them's a lot of nits.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Them's a lot of nits.

[Mike Heiss]

Picking them nits.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Now, did you see it? I know that I'm showing you.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes, I did. Yes. And I mean and I had taken some pictures but it would, what you just saw is actually better because it's a, you know, sort of a studio shot. And as we said in part one, it's really hard to say which was better because the one downside of a trade show is you don't see them side by side.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

Everybody shows theirs in a booth and you have to rely on your visual memory. Such as, such as it is, they all look good and everybody always is playing separate, you know, demo material. So it's not like the old days where everybody was, you know, playing Top Gun for goodness sakes.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. Now they have all, now they all have custom made demo material in, in.

[Mike Heiss]

Very, very high resolution.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

And clearly tailored to showcase, you know, underwater scenes and the jellyfish and what we used to, I show my age. We used to call these Japanese demo reels when the Japanese sets brands were, you know, were the big ones and the LG and Samsung were the up and commerce.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

Now it's the reverse, right, that LG and Samsung become the legacy brands and the TCOs and Hisenses are the, they're not the up and comers anymore. They're. They have already come up.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. Right. And that's another interesting point you make. The, the, the high end TVs were made in Japan and the Koreans were the up and comers. Now the Koreans are the legacy brands and the Chinese are the up and comers or have already arrived.

[Mike Heiss]

Although I say advisedly designed in Korea, not necessarily made in Korea.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Understood.

[Mike Heiss]

And that's going to be important.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. HiSense also showed 163 inch micro LED TV, same as the 136 and has basically the same specs.

[Mike Heiss]

There wasn't as much attention on any of the manufacturers. LG kind of not at all. I guess I'll wait for ISC and a Vixo which are more on the commercial side. Samsung a little bit. They didn't show the wall as the wall. I don't know if they've retired that moniker as a brand. They did have some direct view LEDs, but they didn't make a big deal out of it. Both hisense and TCL did. Not necessarily as much because they're for sale, but of course they can.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, well. And you can buy them if you have six or seven figures, probably. Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

And. And you know, and you know, good for you if you can.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

But it's the attention this year was not so much as much on direct view led. And although LG showed transparent this year and I just want to kind of slide that in. Yeah, they did have a very interesting art display using the transparent sets, but. What? Okay, fine. And they had the one they introduced last year that's now available for sale in their demo suite and on the floor. Excuse me. If that's your thing. Fine. Samsung had them, but not as a display, but more for retail applications.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

Which is fine, but they've kind of gone back to basics in terms of what makes the image on a standard TV, whether it's an OLED or an LED. LED LCD look better.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. And Hisense made a pretty big announcement in that regard. 116 inch, 116 UX, RGB mini LED LCD TV. Yep. That's a mouthful. Yep. But the important part is it the mini LEDs in the backlight instead of being white or blue or blue passing through a quantum dot film, are now, they are now directly red, green and blue LEDs.

[Mike Heiss]

And that is not a firsty first. That is the first since wow. Sharp criminalis that had to have been 10, maybe even 15 years ago at the very beginning of LED backlight. And I think Sony had one back in the. Back in the day.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

But this is the first time this technology has reappeared. And the advantage, the advancements between now and then is that they're small, they're mini LEDs and they're really bright.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Really bright.

[Mike Heiss]

Really, really bright.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I mean again, this TV is, is specked to. To have a peak brightness of 10,000 nits. Yep.

[Mike Heiss]

And you know, if I had the box and I had the wall space and I could fit it through the damn door, you know. Sure, why not?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Sure. It's 4K, it's 97% of the BT 2020 color gamut. And here is a slide, a photo you took of a, of a display there.

[Mike Heiss]

Yeah, this was at the press conference.

[Scott Wilkinson]

The press conference that shows the advantages of RGB LED backlights.

[Mike Heiss]

And if you look over at the side where it says color control precision, that is also due to the processor.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Mike Heiss]

And one of the things that. And this is not new, this has been going on for the past many years that each brand highlights the capabilities of their processor.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Mike Heiss]

And that's what is the secret sauce.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep.

[Mike Heiss]

And that's like as in the case of the LG panels. That's why the same panel might look, I wouldn't say better or worse because I didn't see them side by side, but perhaps different from one brand to another because there's also not just the panel, but the actual processor that's driving it, which is.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Makes a big, big difference.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes.

[Scott Wilkinson]

No question. So this is what Hisense said was the advantage of RGB, micro LED or mini LEDs. And they weren't the only company talking about it. Which we'll get to in a minute. Yep. The last thing I wanted. Well, two things more about Hisense. One was the LQ9ust projector. Ultra short throw. Yeah. Which is a three laser projector. 5,000 lumens output, 110% of BT 2020 color space, which is wider than even the HDR spec says. And it can fill up to 150 inch screen.

[Mike Heiss]

I did not ask them, by the way, if that was an ALR screen. That's my bet.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Oh, it had to be ambient light rejecting. I mean, I would be shocked if they weren't using an ALR screen in the demo.

[Mike Heiss]

Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Because it's on a show floor.

[Mike Heiss]

Sure. Well. But they had them sort of in these dark alcoholics.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. Okay. Still.

[Mike Heiss]

Yeah.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And then one thing you pointed out to me that I thought was really cool was an ultra short throw projector with a rollable screen integrated into the case.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So this was. This is very cool. So it's an ultra short throw projector sitting there right in front of the screen, right below it. And the screen, motorized. Rolls up when you want to watch the TV and rolls down when you're done. This isn't new.

[Mike Heiss]

The projector kind of pops out where you see, there's actually, I didn't crop this. I left the hisense in, so I'd remember whose it was. A little door opens up and oh my goodness, there's a projector there.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Ah, okay. So that's pretty cool too.

[Mike Heiss]

Yeah. I mean, there's a company called awol, which I've always thought was sort of a strange name for anybody that's been around the military. But AWOL has had sets like that at Cedia for quite a while. This is the first time one of the main brands has shown that.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

Oh, Samsung. I'm sorry, Hisense claims. Let me flip my notes back here.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Mike Heiss]

Hisense claims 63% of the hundred inch TVs that are sold regardless of brands are USTs. Which kind of makes sense.

[Scott Wilkinson]

It makes total sense.

[Mike Heiss]

You look at the cost and the ease of installation.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Mike Heiss]

Good luck getting that 116 inch set through the door.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah, very good point. Very.

[Mike Heiss]

Folds in the middle once.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Once. Only once.

[Mike Heiss]

Only once.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay, let's move on to LG. They had their 2025 lineup.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Which you can tell in their model numbers because they end in a five.

[Mike Heiss]

Five is better than four.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Indeed. So they had their M5, which is. Which is a pretty high end.

[Mike Heiss]

That one also looked very, very good.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Very good. And. And the step down, if you want to call it that, G5. Both of which are in their EVO OLED line. Brighter than last year, faster refresh rates. We've been talking about gaming and a lot of these TVs are up to 144, 165Hz refresh rate and G sync and FreeSync. Right. From Nvidia. And I forget who the other one is.

[Mike Heiss]

Those guys, those amd.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah. Variable refresh rate. They have this new remote, we talked about it in part one that recognizes different voices, allows more conversational commands, and.

[Mike Heiss]

Of course it's tied into the, dare I say it, the AI thing.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes, exactly, exactly. They also introduced the C5 and the B5, which are their step down models. I often recommend the C series of LG OLEDs because they're not, I mean, they're more expensive than most LCD TVs, but not astronomical.

[Mike Heiss]

And. And again, it reaches a point of diminishing returns.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Exactly.

[Mike Heiss]

You almost have to convince yourself that it's better.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

Because if you put them side by side, you know, unless you're, you know, a colorist or Joe Kane or whomever, would you really be able to tell which is which? And I would gather that. Or did I clean my glasses off within the last hour? Because I'm always, you know, doing that when I take off my reading glasses, which I'm wearing now are my, my non reading glasses. And you know, how many people can really tell the difference? I mean, it's, you know, true.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. One thing I want, I will say about the M5 is that they have, they now have something new from LG called the zero connect box which transmits.

[Mike Heiss]

Samsung has their version.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Samsung has their version. We'll talk about that in a minute. But this transmits audio, video signals wirelessly.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

To the tv, which means a wall mounted TV won't have as many wires. It still have power, but it won't have hdmi, for example.

[Mike Heiss]

And they were, they were so meticulous about that that the wires that are there or for the power, there's a recess in the back of the, of the set so that you can mount it as close to the wall as possible.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Ah, okay. Very good.

[Mike Heiss]

But they're really very design aware.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. Okay, Next up, Panasonic. They were back big time.

[Mike Heiss]

They used to be big, big time. And in fact we've been talking about the legacy brands and there's a legacy brand that is returning big time. And one of the hallmarks that LG has been using is that a lot of the colorists here in Hollywood and, and elsewhere have been using those in, in their mastering applications. Mark Wheelosh, who I think, you know, is a longtime, you know, journalist and big colorist, does a lot of restorations.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

In his studio he's got a big LG that's his master monitor. But a lot of the post houses have been using Panasonics and now they're going back. They had a full line of both OLEDs and LCD LEDs.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Amazing. They showed for example the Z95B OLED which has this new LG four layer panel which we talked about. Yep. And you said it was really outstanding picture quality.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep. And it really, really was. And they had it in the dark. You Know, back room where it looked good, but more importantly, they had it out on the show floor and it looked really good. Even on the show floor with.

[Scott Wilkinson]

With all that ambient light. Yep. Now, interestingly, it's based on the fire TV platform.

[Mike Heiss]

Okay.

[Scott Wilkinson]

With what?

[Mike Heiss]

That's why God invented Roku, you know, and again, it. As we've said before, they're selling eyeballs as much as they're selling TVs. The, you know, this is razors and blade. This is as old as King Gillette King Nobel Prize for thinking up selling razors and blades. And that's what this is. This is sets and eyeballs and the years.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. I think we didn't mention when we were talking about lg, and I can put it in here, because Panasonic's doing the same thing using this new four layer OLED structure.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes. And.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And doing away with Microlens Array, or mla, which was their big technological feature of the last couple of years.

[Mike Heiss]

Right. And this is. Whatever it does, however it does it, it does it really, really well. It's brighter, there's more contrast. But then you go into the secret sauce. LG has theirs, Panasonic has theirs. And in fact, a lot of the press people, myself included, were sort of confused as to whether they were actually using the same panel. And it is the same panel, but driven by a different process.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. It was interesting that LG didn't seem to tout this four layer structure as much as Panasonic.

[Mike Heiss]

They were. I wouldn't put words in their mouth. They were a little apologetic when in some of the press briefings and people say, well, where's moa? Well, we got something new. But it was sort of odd that they did not make a big deal out of it. But it's. But the picture, trust me, the pictures are good.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, I'm sure that's true. Panasonic also showed the W95B, which is a mini LED LCD TV, which they said had two and a half times the number of dimming zones from last year's W95A, although I read in one of the reports from the show that it's still below a thousand dimming zones. You said people weren't talking about dimming zones this year.

[Mike Heiss]

And.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay.

[Mike Heiss]

And in fact, not only were they not talking about dimming zones. I know you'll get to it in a bit. TCL was saying, enough with the dimming zones. It's about, it's, it's not just about the dimming zones, which is true. And it's about how does the picture look? And if you're a home theater geek, you want to know how it got there, but your partner or significant other doesn't care.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

They just. Damn, that's a good picture. Gee, that's a crappy picture. Well, why not? Well, it doesn't have enough dimming zones. I didn't ask you that. And I think that that's a very correct marketing approach. And TCL mentioned that more than once in their presentation.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. I was amazed to read in the Panasonic press materials that this mini LED LCD TV does not use quantum dots. They're using phosphorus. And again, this is a. This is home theater geek. So I can get geeky.

[Mike Heiss]

I didn't see that whilst I was at the show, so I wasn't able to ask them. Yeah, but you know, you have to say they had a reason. Reason number one could have been cost. Reason number two could have been because.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

By the oled. That's why. That's why the oled.

[Scott Wilkinson]

By the oled. Right. Well, that's what I would say anyway.

[Mike Heiss]

Sure.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay. Samsung. Moving on to Samsung. They have OLED TVs. These are quantum. OLED, QD. OLED. Yep. At least their top one, the S95F which I only found this kind of semi boring picture of. They also have the S90F. S85F. These are all OLEDs. The S95F is QD OLED. The 90 and 85 are regular OLED or W OLED you caught. And the S95F has a refresh rate up to 165Hz. So again we're. And the QDO gaming is clearly an.

[Mike Heiss]

Important marketing point for all of the brands. Yes, they touted VRR and they touted the 144, 160 and. And onward.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep. Yep. Now here was a really interesting spec I found. The QD OLED. The S95F can get up to 4,000 nits of peak brightness, which I've never heard an OLED could do to do that before, you know.

[Mike Heiss]

But again, you go back to what some of my colorist friends say when Dolby first came out with their master monitor for Dolby Vision. Yeah, that was some ridiculous amount of nits at the time. And some of the colorists were saying I have to take a break every 15 minutes because they're too bloody bright.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

So it's not just about the brightness.

[Scott Wilkinson]

True.

[Mike Heiss]

It's not true. And again, I mean, I kid him. He's a very good friend of Mine, Joe Kane would say it's not about the brightness, is about the contrast. And he's right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And he's right.

[Mike Heiss]

And you know, people have to really look at the picture in totality to really see is this the right picture that I want and is it better than the other one?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

I hate to say it in this forum. Sometimes you got to put the specs aside.

[Scott Wilkinson]

True, true. But at the moment, specs are all I got.

[Mike Heiss]

So spec slip.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay. They also had some mini LEDs. Mini LED.

[Mike Heiss]

We're back to Samsung.

[Scott Wilkinson]

We're back to Samsung.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes. The one thing that they did have, which was in the secret room, which is not available yet, but tagging on to what Hisense is doing with mini LED, RGBs, Samsung, this is not available. Now. This was in the secret room and not on the floor. But they did show and they wouldn't let me take a picture of it. So I apologize, but they didn't want to take a picture of it. A. A micro LED backlight. That was rgb. Now micro LED is what is the, like the wall. It's that same, right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

It's normally used in direct view.

[Mike Heiss]

Teeny weeny, teeny tiny, teeny weeny tiny LEDs that were RGBs in the same dome. And the advantage there, as Hisense pointed out, excuse me, by having individual RGB LEDs, you can not only get better contrast by turning the cell on and off, you can turn the color on.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And off or change it.

[Mike Heiss]

Right. And when you combine that with the advanced processing, that's where you really start to get good pictures. And again I asked the folks from, from Samsung, like micro led, you're going to confuse the damn daylights out of people. And he said it's not available yet. That will change.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right?

[Mike Heiss]

But that's something that's coming. But they wouldn't, they wouldn't even say when and they sure as heck wouldn't say at what price. Yeah, but damn, was the picture good?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Now the picture I'm sure was really, really good. So they did have two 8k mini LED backlit TVs, QN990F and QN900F. This is a picture.

[Mike Heiss]

They were the ones pushing 8k the most.

[Scott Wilkinson]

They were Samsung and they have always.

[Mike Heiss]

Been and continue to.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep. How, how important it is. I still don't think it's that important.

[Mike Heiss]

No. And in fact, As I recall, LG did not introduce a new 8K set. The car, the AK sets carryover.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. And Samsung introduced like LG, a wireless connection box. They call it Wireless One Connect. Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

And you know, it's a thing.

[Scott Wilkinson]

It's a thing.

[Mike Heiss]

And you know, is it. It's worth. Worth something to those to whom it's worth it. If that's necessary for the installation and you don't want to snake wires back behind the wall, put something over them, you know, if you can, then it's worth something. I've had it.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They also introduced a bunch of new 4K TVs.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Again with refresh rates up to 165 sizes up to 115 inches. So once again, we're getting into the really big TVs.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep. I also thought it was interesting, they introduced their second generation of the frame, which is this art tv.

[Mike Heiss]

Took a little bit of heat for the picture quality, did they? When it wasn't. No. Of the original, of the community. And they, they, you know, stepped up the bar on that and the quality was good. And, you know, they talked about, you know, art from the muse to something or other. And the Art Basel. Art Basel, I think I went to school with him. And, you know, and so again, it's not particularly something that's of interest to me, but I'm one person. And to this lady here, she's clearly got a much nicer house than I do real art. So, you know, good for her. And back at cd, they showed speakers that matched the frame display. So they're all into that concept and apparently are doing very well because TCL has a similar concept.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Ah, okay. I didn't know that.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Although that leads us right into tcl, which is interesting in that they have a lab in China where they develop mini LED technology. So. And they make their own mini LEDs for their backlights. So they're totally full, vertically integrated.

[Mike Heiss]

They are the vertical integrated company.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

And the company, the division that makes the displays is called csot, China Star Optical. Something that starts with the T. And they claim to be the largest manufacturer of LCD panels. And. Excuse me, that gives them the expertise. And then when you combine that with the lab, they cook up a lot of stuff and then they get to use it in their sets and sell some, but not all of it to their customers.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. So the main product that they showed was the QM6K, the only really new.

[Mike Heiss]

Set that they showed. And they were very forthwith about that during their pre show event. And they said more is coming.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay. So this is a quantum dot based mini LED backlight TV. LCD TV increased. They claim to have increased brightness by over 50%. 500 dimming zones, 98% of DCI P3 color gamut. They even gave prices. They start at 50 inches for 750 bucks.

[Mike Heiss]

That's not bad.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Which is not bad for this.

[Mike Heiss]

For a high end. For a high end set.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, exactly. The 65 is 1000 bucks. 75, 1300 85, 200098 inches for 3500 bucks.

[Mike Heiss]

And you look at what those used to cost.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Mike Heiss]

If you remember back. And it wasn't in the grand scheme of things that long ago.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep.

[Mike Heiss]

The original Panasonic 103 inch plasma. Remember that?

[Scott Wilkinson]

I remember that one.

[Mike Heiss]

Six figures.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Six figures. Yep. And you had to build your house to get it into the house. You had to build the house around it.

[Mike Heiss]

Bill Gates did.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes. Well, as you pointed out, they hinted at some stuff, including the QM7K.

[Mike Heiss]

Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And they showed another 115incher, the QM891G which you have a picture of the.

[Mike Heiss]

World'S largest QD mini LED TV.

[Scott Wilkinson]

There it is.

[Mike Heiss]

And, and again, with apologies for. It's time to buy a new dslr. But yes, this is. They're all really good and I, I hate to be repetitive, but they all look really good. And it was just really hard to say what was the best one at the show.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Very hard to say. You also got a picture. Sorry, go ahead.

[Mike Heiss]

That they. And you know, and along with it, you could see in the, in the back where that fella's standing, where it says world's leading technology. That they were showcasing all of the different aspects of their technology from the lab and from CSOP that really, you know, have them get the advantages that they're able to offer.

[Scott Wilkinson]

You also got a picture of the 163 inch micro LED direct view.

[Mike Heiss]

Yep. And I had to stand far back enough in order to get people out of the way. Certainly get out of the way. For goodness sakes. I have to take a picture of Scott Wilkinson and I should have cropped that down. I apologize.

[Scott Wilkinson]

I wanted to get it in context. I could have cropped it, but I actually wanted to see it.

[Mike Heiss]

It was really hard to take pictures of all these 100 plus inch sets. I was shooing people away like crazy.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And I think you mentioned that TCL or there were some rumors that some high, high end TCL sets would be using RGB mini LEDs in their backlights. Later, later, later.

[Mike Heiss]

Not. They were not. They were not saying that to the extent that the others were. Yeah, they were focused on other aspects that are coming now in their mini LED backlighting right at T Mobile we'll.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

So a couple other pieces of TV news before we wrap this part up. Sharp was back.

[Mike Heiss]

Sharp, remember them?

[Scott Wilkinson]

They used to have huge press conferences. I remember one where they were they.

[Mike Heiss]

Were a main brand. They made their own sets. I believe they in a recent years they've had some financial difficulties. They were a primary LCD panel manufacturers. Yep, they were the first gen 7, gen 8 Camiyama. They had a huge I. I've been to their factory, not to the panel factory, I've been to the assembly factories in Japan and they're huge. But they had financial difficulties and they're now, I believe, owned by Foxconn. Like if you've got an iPhone, you know what Foxconn is right?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Exactly. But they are back and powered by TiVo. I thought TiVo had more or less disappeared as well.

[Mike Heiss]

Well, TiVo I got one right over there and you can take that TiVo from my cold dead ass. But that's a topic for another, another show perhaps. But it is that when we talked about OS earlier and in part one, some of the manufacturers that don't have the wherewithal or the desire as Tizen does at Samsung or WebOS does at LG to develop their own OS. That's why TCL doesn't have their own OS. It was Roku and it just still is to some extent. Or it's Google tv.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

Excuse me, I got to take a drink here.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, go right ahead. You, you're, you're, you're sitting in the middle of very bad air quality.

[Mike Heiss]

Don't go out without a. Don't go out. I dug out all those masks, let me tell you.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Good, good.

[Mike Heiss]

In fact they, they, they're saying don't even use KNS. I've got to see if I can find some N95 or you see people on the news with the respirator type.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

And it was really bad.

[Scott Wilkinson]

But anyway, Sharp TV and TiVo OS.

[Mike Heiss]

Lets them say, let somebody else do the ad sales. We'll just take a piece of it. Let somebody else take the time and expense to develop it, do the ad sales and then we'll wrap our video processing around it. And for a brand like Sharp, that's coming back into the market. That makes sense. Panasonic. There's no Panasonic os. They're using the Fakta Fire tv.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

Sony. Sony clearly could make their own OS if they wanted to, but they use Google, they don't have to. Right?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

And so that's a brand decision. But by the way, I also saw, not at Cesar, I didn't see it because I had to leave early.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Mike Heiss]

But Sharp is also going to introduce sets with Zumo X U M O which is a joint venture between Charter and Comcast or Content, the two largest cable companies. Comcast also happens to own NBC and Universal. And Charter, which is Spectrum is actually now I think is as big with some of the fall off in subscriptions in terms of cable. So they have their own OS and their own TVs which are a little bit more tightly integrated into if you're a Comcast or Charter cable subscriber. But again, which one is better? There are ones that I like. There are ones that you like. But do you like a carousel or do you like tiles? Roku is tiles where you see the little blocks. Google and Fire are carousel where you run them across the screen. Apple TV is tiles. So which OS do you as a consumer prefer? And again, you can either do it and let that guide your TV technology choice. I wouldn't do it and I don't think many of the people here would do it. They'd rather have a better looking TV and if they don't like the os, buy a Roku.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right.

[Mike Heiss]

Or a Zoomo or a Fire TV or an Nvidia Shield still around and still the best for video people.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, so.

[Mike Heiss]

But that's, you know, that's what makes it a ballgame.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah. ATSC 3.0 otherwise known as Next Gen TV.

[Mike Heiss]

Indeed. And they were there and they announced again we're talking about RCA before RCA and a company that I have to confess I'm not familiar with. Slyvox I think.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, Silvox I would cop them too.

[Mike Heiss]

Yeah, well I guess Y box doesn't sound right. And they're big on outdoor TVs and if you think about it, that actually makes sense because it was an outdoor tv. You just stick a coat hanger on the back.

[Scott Wilkinson]

May not be quite that simple.

[Mike Heiss]

Well, you know, but I. And there are more set. Now would I buy a new TV just to get ATSC 3.0 next gen? No. And I'm a big fan and proponent of it. But I'm not going to buy a new TV for it. Thus I have a Zapper box which is really good. A Zinwell which is really good even though it's got a funky name. An adth which is okay, but it's a way for, you know, anywhere from 79 a Walmart is selling one of these boxes.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So these are. These are ATSC 3.0 receiver boxes out outboard boxes that you connect an antenna to.

[Mike Heiss]

Just like 20 years ago you bought a box to get 1.0. This is a box that gets you 3.0. But for example here in LA where five of the stations are now next gen, the stations that were 720 are now 1080. The stations that were 1080 I are now 1080p. I can get HDR or Dolby Vision over the air. I don't need a Pano stinking cable. And there are more things, games and other auxiliary services that are coming and the some of the NBC stations, KNBC here in LA has got an app. So if you're a true cord cutter as long as you don't cut the cord to the antenna I've got much of the functionality of streaming in terms of news services or they even have a play from the beginning. So what is it? It's 20 to 5 here in LA. And when we're over, if I turn on the news, just know that I wanted to see the beginning of the 4:00 news to get the press conference on the fires. I could just press the go to beginning app button and you know, and that's worth it. And they are going to have a much more advanced early warning system. So it's a thing. And the fact that it will deliver HDR is or Dolby Vision or HDR10 plus, which they also announced and I will talk about is something that I encourage everybody to at least consider.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. Speaking of which, HDR10+ was continuing to gain ground at CES.

[Mike Heiss]

Indeed they were.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And they announced adoption for some content by Disney plus.

[Mike Heiss]

And in Apple TV.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Apple TV, Paramount Prime Video, YouTube, all.

[Mike Heiss]

The Prime Video stuff is HDR10 plus or so they said. And I know the guy who runs that and I believe them. And they had sort of as an aside, there are now dual mode encoders. So if there is a sporting event and that's the big play for local TV right now, that that a broadcaster will be able to encode both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision. It's all about the metadata on the same show. How that's going to happen with these devices remains to be seen. But you know, for example, Samsung doesn't have Dolby vision. They have HDR10 plus.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Correct.

[Mike Heiss]

LG has Dolby Vision, but they may not. As somebody says in the chat room, Ozark cheese, there's no HDR10 plus in his LG C2. So all of this is, you know, this is all way to make it as friendly as they can for the consumer to deliver the best possible picture.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep, yep. Well, that was an awful lot of stuff, wasn't it?

[Mike Heiss]

Yep, it was, it was a good, it really was. In spite of the fact that I had to go home a day early. Yeah, it was, it was a good show. And again, I think the bottom line in terms of video, what we've been talking about for this part two is, yes, there were some significant, even without cleaning off my glasses, ability to see improvements.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, I'm looking forward to 2025 in the TV world then for sure.

[Mike Heiss]

We're looking for a better world for everybody.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Indeed. So can you stick around for part three? We'll talk about some audio stuff.

[Mike Heiss]

Sure. Unfortunately, I missed a lot of the audio stuff, but yeah, actually there's some of the stuff that I, I will put some 3 cents in.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Good, good. Looking forward to it.

[Mike Heiss]

Okay, thanks a lot, Scott.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Sure, you bet. Before we go. Tell us again where we can find your writings.

[Mike Heiss]

Residential Tech Today, which strangely enough has a print edition.

[Scott Wilkinson]

What?

[Mike Heiss]

I know. What is that about?

[Scott Wilkinson]

That's European. I in a previous episode.

[Mike Heiss]

No, no, no. Residential Tech is North American.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Oh.

[Mike Heiss]

They have a quarterly print edition and. But they have, you know, daily online things. I haven't put any of my stuff in there yet, but somebody clearly did. And that's www.reztech today.com and I have a feature in every issue about that. And then there's Hidden Wires, which is an amazing European publication.

[Scott Wilkinson]

That's the European one.

[Mike Heiss]

Yes. Which also covers the UK and North America and they have some interesting. I did an article about Barbenheimer and what that means to us.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Mike Heiss]

And that's hiddenwires.co.uk and they have a, a bi monthly print edition and they again, four times a week. And when I get my, my button gear here, you'll see some content for me there.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay, very good. Well, thanks so much for being here for part two and look forward to seeing you in part three.

[Mike Heiss]

What's Geek In?

[Scott Wilkinson]

What's that?

[Mike Heiss]

Where we will geek out and then we will geek in.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And we will geek in. Exactly right. So listen, if you as a listener or a viewer have a question for me, I sure hope you will send it along to HTGWIT TV and I will answer as many as I can right here on the show. And as always, we thank you for your support of the Twit network with your membership in Club Twit, which gives you access to all the Twitch shows in their video format and you can come into the discord and chat away. So we thank you for that. Until next time, geek out.

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