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Home Theater Geeks 474: My Home Theater: Speakers
01:00:45
The perfect speakers for an imperfect room
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- [00:01]
Scott Wilkinson
In this episode of Home Theater Geeks, I chat with Anthony Grimani about the speakers he recommended I put in my home theater. So stay tuned.
- [00:13]
Anthony Grimani
Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is Twit.
- [00:29]
Scott Wilkinson
Hey there. Scott Wilkinson here, the home theater geek. In this episode, I'm going to talk about the speakers in my home theater, which were provided by Anthony Grimani. Now, he's been a guest on the show before. He's an electrical engineer that specializes in audio, electronics, acoustics and speaker design. He's a home theater designer as well, and he's the head of Grimani Systems Company that makes speakers, which we will be talking about today. PMI Engineering, which is a engineering and consulting firm for designing acoustical spaces. And he's also the head of MSR Acoustics, which is a firm that specializes in acoustic treatments. We're going to be talking about that in the next episode, but for now, we're going to be talking about speakers. Hey, Anthony, welcome back to the show.
- [01:30]
Anthony Grimani
Hi, Scott. It's good to see you again.
- [01:32]
Scott Wilkinson
Good to see you, too, as always. Now, in previous episodes, I've talked about other aspects of my home theater. For example, in episode 392, I talked about the special paint, the very neutral dark gray that I put in the room. In episode 455, I talked about the TV that I chose for the room, the Sony 77A 95L. Talk about Alphabet soup, a QD, OLED, which really looks fantastic. It's a wonderful television and I'm really happy I put that one in there. But now it's time to talk about the speakers. Anthony, I decided I wanted to use your speakers in my room because every time I've heard them, whether it was at Cedia or in your showroom, they really sounded great. Very natural sounding and very cohesive with a high dynamic range. Not that I like to listen to really loud music, but I like to have that dynamic range because music and soundtracks have a wide dynamic range. And if you can reproduce that, well, you're really ahead of the game. And I thought. I've always thought your speakers did a great job at that. So I contacted you to discuss it, and here we are.
- [02:55]
Anthony Grimani
Thank you.
- [02:58]
Scott Wilkinson
Now, my room is not ideal, as you know. It's open on one side to the kitchen, and I have a floor plan diagram here to show you to remind you of what the problem is. And as you can see here, I've got a screening area on the right, and three of the walls are closed in. There's a sliding glass door on the side and a window at the back and it opens out into the kitchen. Now this actually works for my wife and I, you know, because as we're in the kitchen working on meal, we can see the TV very nicely. But it doesn't work so great for, you know, a dedicated home theater. And Anthony, you've worked probably on plenty of these kinds of rooms before.
- [03:47]
Anthony Grimani
Right, right, right. These mixed use environments that I call the media lounge, which are not idealized for any application. If you're just happy to have picture and sound, who cares? But what we're trying to do is to reproduce the picture and sound that the director intended. Reproduce the excitement, reproduce the feeling of being inside the movie, not just observing it. And it gets challenging. So you gotta, you gotta put some extra creativity into it. And we did that. You guys all need to know that Scott and I went back and forth and back and forth a number of times with ideas of how to skin this cat. By the way, no cats were hurt in this process about how to arrange the acoustics and the layout and everything so that when you're in non, non movie watching mode, the room is usable and pleasant. And then when you go into movie mode and you hit play, it's. It's pretty stunning.
- [04:46]
Scott Wilkinson
Yeah. And it really is. So tell us how you approached speaker placement and selection.
- [04:53]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah, well, I, I beat you over the head over what you need to do. No.
- [04:59]
Scott Wilkinson
Yes. Yes.
- [05:01]
Anthony Grimani
So it all starts. It all starts with what's the target? It all starts with, hey, the front speaker should be at about this angle from your main listening position, which happens to be around 45 degrees subtended angle between the left speaker and your head and the right speaker. And your direction would be the other way around. Left and right. It starts with that the center speaker should be at the same height, except that you've got this beautiful tv. So you're going to put the speaker below or above and we have to decide which one is the least bad in terms of the perception of it. We have a technology now, by the way, on larger screens that allows us to project the sound onto the screen. We call that reflectance where there's actually a gizmo put over your head that acts now that on a video wall. Not that there's not a video projector there, there's room to put an audio projector. We bounce that off, but that's. It wouldn't have been appropriate for your room. So you have to figure out where's the least bad compromise, the best compromise. And then we know that the surround speakers, ideally, you know, they want to be, you know, slightly behind you, up 15 degrees. Well, you couldn't do that. On one side, it's air, and on the other side, there's either a window or a piece of wall, but it doesn't match that.
- [06:16]
Scott Wilkinson
So there's a window on the most of the back wall and a sliding glass door on the side.
- [06:23]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah. And so we started with, hey, here's what we want to do. Okay. Can't do that. What can we do next? What creative solution can we do? Knowing that the target is this, how can we do something different that is close enough on the target, and that's what we do throughout. So it's like, interestingly enough, like all engineering processes are, whether you're designing a car, a rocket, a plumbing system for a sophisticated building, there's always all these different things you have to figure out. Sort of like a Rubik's Cube with another six dimensions on it that you need to work through to go, okay, well, if we do this, then it will affect that and this and that. And we finally got there.
- [07:07]
Scott Wilkinson
We did.
- [07:08]
Anthony Grimani
Do you want to get into the specifics of where we ended up putting speakers? Do you have.
- [07:12]
Scott Wilkinson
Yes, I do.
- [07:13]
Anthony Grimani
Am I ahead of myself?
- [07:14]
Scott Wilkinson
Well, you're a little ahead of yourself because. Oh, hang on a second. Here we go. Yes. I wanted to first start with the speaker selection.
- [07:25]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah.
- [07:27]
Scott Wilkinson
Which, because it's a relatively small room, we went with. What are, for you, for Grimani systems, relatively small speakers. The Rixos system.
- [07:37]
Anthony Grimani
Right.
- [07:38]
Scott Wilkinson
Which come in several sizes.
- [07:40]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah.
- [07:40]
Scott Wilkinson
There's an XL and an L, and we chose the S, the small, because it's a small room. In fact, here. Here is the speaker that we used for the front, right, and left.
- [07:52]
Anthony Grimani
Correct. So we make a range of speakers that all have the same basic quality, and actually they have such a good matching quality that you could use an S, which is this one for small, on the left, together with an L, which is a large, on the right, as a stereo pair. And they would produce a perfectly good stereo image, which is kind of odd. There are different speakers, different drivers, but we match them, their design and engineering, to where they're completely complementary. I'll explain later why we do that. It's not just an exercise in futility. There's a good reason for doing that. So then you say, well, what speaker do you need? Well, you need enough to drive the horsepower in terms of sound pressure level you need for your room. So in your room, you're sitting so many feet or meters Away from the speaker and the space is this many cubic feet or cubic meters of volume. And we know back to the standards where we're saying speakers should be here. Well, we also know that the peak sound level you need to achieve in the case of a movie soundtrack is 105dB. That's like the loudest peaks in any of the three front channels. And so we match that requirement with what your room is, what the acoustics are, how far the speakers are and we go. Given all of that, you need that much horsepower, I guess it would be equivalent in a car of figuring out how fast you want to go and how big of an engine you need, given somewhat the weight, but also the CX of the car, you know how well it cuts through air. So it's an audio equivalent of that for cars. A lot of people understand cars much more than they understand electroacoustics. Besides, I like cars.
- [09:36]
Scott Wilkinson
Indeed, so do I.
- [09:37]
Anthony Grimani
So we figured out, given how far you are from the speaker, how loud you want to listen and actually gave you quite a bit of headroom over that, that you would be fine with the small size speaker. And in the case of our company, we actually have three different form factors for the small. We have one that's like this one and then one that's a little smaller this way and deeper that way. For you, we chose what's called a Rixos snr. Small, narrow, recessed.
- [10:04]
Scott Wilkinson
Right. Which if we look at the picture one more time, we'll see this is taller but less deep.
- [10:13]
Anthony Grimani
Correct.
- [10:15]
Scott Wilkinson
And it's. That looks like to me like it's got a compression tweeter in a wave guide.
- [10:20]
Anthony Grimani
It's actually not a compression tweeter. It's a very high quality, European made dome tweeter. Silic dome tweeter. Ah, that's mounted into a waveguide and that's kind of unusual. Usually horns and waveguides have compression drivers in them and.
- [10:34]
Scott Wilkinson
Right.
- [10:35]
Anthony Grimani
No, we're not doing that here. We don't need. In the case of these speakers, we don't need the sound pressure level capability that a compression driver gives you. Instead, this particular one, it's made by Audax, has enough sensitivity and when it's loaded in that waveguide, which gives it a little bit more headroom, actually quite a bit more headroom. In its low frequency region, around 2 kilohertz, it produces plenty of sound pressure level. And I think I demonstrated that to you when it all got calibrated when like, let's turn this up to 11, you're like, okay, okay, okay. I think your wife came, came running down from the other side of the house going, you're not going to play it like that all the time, right?
- [11:16]
Scott Wilkinson
No, no, no, she, she, she did do that. I remember that very well. And I'm, and I'm not, I'm not a fan of really loud soundtracks. I know plenty of people who listen at, listen at what's called reference level. Right, right. And, and it's just too loud for me. It's just painful. So I'm never going to listen at that, at that level. So again, what, what you provided is, is just fine.
- [11:44]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah.
- [11:45]
Scott Wilkinson
So those were the front, right and left. The center is the Rixos H2. And we'll take a pick. Take a look at that. That's got two mid range drivers. And is it the same tweeter?
- [11:57]
Anthony Grimani
It's a, it is at the time you got it, interestingly enough, there was a transition, but on that one it's the same as the Rixos S. The two drivers that are on either side are really mid ranges. We call them woofer mid range. Whatever. They play down to 80Hz, which would qualify them as woofers. They're, interestingly enough, they're configured in a two and a half way crossover.
- [12:23]
Scott Wilkinson
What does that mean?
- [12:25]
Anthony Grimani
Without which that speaker would not sound very good. So if you were to do what most other manufacturers do, which is they connect those two woofers together either in parallel or in series, but they're playing together at some frequency, you would get what's called lobing the sound right in front. Instead of being a nice wide dispersion, nice bubble, it would start to create these three or four or five leaf clover radiation patterns.
- [12:54]
Scott Wilkinson
Yes.
- [12:55]
Anthony Grimani
And that's because when the two woofers are right in front of you, you're hearing all the sound adding correctly to you. But if you go off axis, which I'll do by turning myself, that woofer reaches you before this one. And on some patterns of the wave, when the waves are leaving like this. But what that one reaches you going up, the one right behind it may be going down and canceling like this. And there could be a cancellation and I'm going to go out on a limb, all of y'all. This is proper American, all you all who are listening. If you just learned one thing from all this, that is to watch out for all of those quote unquote center speakers that have two woofers straddling a single tweeter. If they're designed in the most basic way, they're going to sound okay on axis, but one seat to the left or one seat to the right. You'll be missing mid range sounds from this interaction, which means that dialogue clarity is going to suffer. It's going to be like. Well, I hear him talking, but I'm not really sure what he or she is saying. So that would be a regular two way system with two woofers to make it look symmetrical. I see that somebody's using a phantom center. I want to buy a phantom center somewhere. Can you tell me where to buy those?
- [14:12]
Scott Wilkinson
So how does the two and a half way work?
- [14:14]
Anthony Grimani
So two and a half is this. And we're not the only people doing that. First off, it costs more. No, no, no, no. Ozark chief, you should say I can sell you a phantom speaker right after I sell you a bridge. Anyway, so two and a half way. The idea is this. You have two woofers in order to have good bass headroom. Right. That's why you need the cone area. He has swamp lamp too. Let's talk about it. I think swamps are really cool. Does it have alligators in it?
- [14:43]
Scott Wilkinson
By the way, Tony is responding to the chat room here.
- [14:48]
Anthony Grimani
I should turn off the chat.
- [14:49]
Scott Wilkinson
You should turn off the chat room. Right. So we can stay on track here.
- [14:53]
Anthony Grimani
So you need two woofers in a speaker to have bass headroom, to have like more power capability, more horsepower at low frequency. But if you make those two woofers work together all the way up to the mid range and the higher frequencies, you're going to get these interactions. At low frequency, there's no interactions because the waves are very long, so they don't really interact off axis. But as of about 800Hz or 1000Hz, there's just massive interactions. So in a two and a half way speaker, what one does is you use the two woofers together and at some frequency, usually 2 or 300Hz, you drop off one woofer and you let the other one continue on up. You have to tailor the frequency response of all this because you got two working together and one goes away. So this one suddenly has to play louder. So the crossover is a little more complicated. But when that other one that's playing alone hands off to the tweeter, there's a very small displacement between the woofer and the tweeter in terms of space. And there's less horizontal lobing. Lobing interaction.
- [15:56]
Scott Wilkinson
Right.
- [15:56]
Anthony Grimani
Bad sound, bad juju in the sound.
- [15:58]
Scott Wilkinson
We really don't want that.
- [16:00]
Anthony Grimani
I'm going to say this one more thing is we do this easily because all of our amps use digital signal processing. The crossover is done in the amp. We can play all of these really cool games with the electroacoustics of building a two and a half way speaker without a really complicated crossover board that chews up a lot of power. I know we're going to come back to talk about that.
- [16:20]
Scott Wilkinson
We're going to come back and talk about amps in a little bit. So put that on the back burner for the moment over there. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.
- [16:29]
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- [17:56]
Scott Wilkinson
Other fees may apply okay, so we've taken care of the front three left, right and center.
- [18:03]
Anthony Grimani
Yep.
- [18:04]
Scott Wilkinson
Now we want to talk about the surround and they are the Rixos W right which we see a picture of here. Same tweeter or not? Same tweeter, same tweeter.
- [18:18]
Anthony Grimani
Essentially all the same componentry as a Rixos S but two core differences. One is that you'll see the head, if I can call it that way, is canted back about 35 degrees and the wave Guides turned around. So the sound. Actually, if you were to project a line in that sound, it would go up 45 or 50 degrees from that, that main direction where the woofer is. And those were designed for putting on a ceiling. And with the angled waveguide, we call this W for a wedge pointing over at you. So we put those on the ceiling. Now, ideally, what we. If you didn't, if you had a dedicated room, we would put two more of those Rixos S or snrs on your sidewalls here. Okay. And they'd be up at about 15 degrees. So we couldn't do that. Like we talked about before, there's, you know, there's a hole there.
- [19:15]
Scott Wilkinson
Right.
- [19:16]
Anthony Grimani
So what we did instead is we put them a little further out up this way, angled to where the sound. Instead of coming at 15 degrees from you, which is the cinema standard, there's a lot of talk about how high up the speaker should be, simply 15 degrees up from ear height between your ears, which typically translates to about 2ft up above your cel CDD or height, depending on how far they are. So what we did instead is we said, okay, well, we can't put a speaker there, but let's go ahead and put a ceiling speaker up further on that same projection up on the ceiling. And we cheated it a little bit. So you're at 20 or 25 degrees. So the sound of that speaker, while it's not coming from the wall at you, it's coming from the ceiling just a little bit higher up. And in the end, your brain doesn't know that it's on the ceiling versus the wall versus hanging or on the stand. It just goes, the sound's coming from over there. And it worked fine.
- [20:09]
Scott Wilkinson
It does work fine. And I'm going to talk about that here probably in the next episode more than than this one. Finally, I just want to talk about the subwoofers. There are two. They are the Zeta. Your company, Grimani Systems, makes a number of subwoofers. This one is, I think, the small one.
- [20:31]
Anthony Grimani
It's a second from smallest. The smallest one has a 10 inch driver and a pretty small cabinet. This is a 13 and a half inch driver in a pretty slim cabinet. It's about five inches deep, five and a half inches deep. It's pretty tall. It's only 14 inches wide. And it's basically designed just like you did to tuck it up against the wall in the front or the back or the side or the ceiling or wherever and not take up too much room.
- [20:58]
Scott Wilkinson
Right And I've got one in the front and one in the back. Is it a sealed cabinet or ported cabinet?
- [21:03]
Anthony Grimani
It's a sealed cabinet.
- [21:05]
Scott Wilkinson
And why did you do that?
- [21:07]
Anthony Grimani
We're big fans of sealed cabinets for lots of different reasons. There's no doubt that by doing a ported subwoofer, you can get a lot more sound pressure level in the bottom octave. But then there's a lot of side effects. So that medication, that is a port introduces too many side effects, distortions, interesting issues around standing wave control. When you turn up loud, the bottom octave actually can go into a different phase response in the direct. It gets complicated. Not worth it. Our strategy instead is to put sealed cabinets with drivers that can take a lot more power than you would need for a ported unit and basically drive the snot out of it. Just because the motor structure is big enough where you normally would just need 300 watts to get plenty of sound pressure level, where in a sealed cabinet, you're going to have to do, if the cabinet's small enough, you're going to have to rise up, put some equalization on the bottom octave. And I'm drawing this in your direction to compensate. And then the side effect is you need a bigger amplifier, which these days is pretty cheap. Getting 1,000 watts is not very expensive. And you need a driver that can take more power and more excursion, which that is still expensive.
- [22:26]
Scott Wilkinson
It's funny the a powerful amplifier, which is essentially digital technology. It's electronics anyway, relatively cheap these days, but a driver that can handle it, which is an analog device, still expensive.
- [22:41]
Anthony Grimani
True, true. It's an analog device with a lot of metal magnets. It's interesting. Just. I can talk about this. You know that law that, you know, every few years everything gets down to half the price. And, you know, it happens in computers and electronics. All this other stuff hasn't happened with cars. Or maybe in a way, it has on drivers. Ultimately it's still metal or aluminum, but it's still basically metal work with magnets and coils and things that over time can't get cheaper. The manufacturing processes have gotten more automated. So today you can buy a driver of a certain quality for less that same quality for less money than it cost 20 years ago, just because of the advances in reliability and manufacturing efficiency. But it's not nearly the same drop as we've seen, you know, across the board in electronics.
- [23:40]
Scott Wilkinson
In electronics, right.
- [23:43]
Anthony Grimani
Scott, I wanted to mention one thing. You know, in your room you have surround speakers that what I call the sides. You also have backs, correct. So the solution for the backs is the same as done for the sides. Normally you would want the backs on the wall again about 15 degrees up from you, not space too far apart. We just replicated that by just taking those lines and going, well, we can't put them there, let's put them up on the ceiling as close as possible to the same vector direction.
- [24:11]
Scott Wilkinson
Here's the front of the room and the speaker placement that we see here is the front, left and right and the center with the subwoofer on the floor tilted on its side from the way it was oriented in that photo. And two overhead speakers. I think those are the, the Atmos.
- [24:32]
Anthony Grimani
Speakers, what I call the top channels of Atmos.
- [24:35]
Scott Wilkinson
Top channels, yeah. And if we look at the next one, eight, we're going a little out of order here. Here's a side view with your, your lovely drawing of a person, Standing man, we call them Standing man. And we can see the subwoofers on the floor, one in the back and one in the front. The front speakers there on the right. And then we can see the overhead speakers which the ones in towards the front of the room are actual, the actual top speakers that are going to reproduce the Dolby Atmos or DTSX overhead channels. And then the middle one there is the side channel, side surround and the back one is the back surround. And if we look at the next drawing we can see, see that same thing from overhead. So here you can see and you've done, you know, very accurate angle drawings. And, and, and the, the side surrounds are pretty far apart and a little behind the seating area. So this, this is part of the service you provide and really beautiful, I thought.
- [25:53]
Anthony Grimani
Thank you.
- [25:55]
Scott Wilkinson
So, yeah, so all the speakers of the surrounds and the overheads are on the ceiling. You know, that's not typical. But again, we're dealing with an atypical room and we had to make compromises and we had to do things somewhat differently. Now one of the really cool things about your speakers are that they're all powered, they're all active speakers. But unlike most such speakers which have the power amp in the cabinet, yours at least in my case, the amplifiers are external, they're rack mounted little amps. Is that true of all your speaker models?
- [26:36]
Anthony Grimani
The great majority of them. When we came to market eight years ago.
- [26:41]
Scott Wilkinson
Eight years ago.
- [26:42]
Anthony Grimani
I know, it's like what happened?
- [26:44]
Scott Wilkinson
Oh man, I remember when you started and I was blown away. But that was eight years ago, years ago.
- [26:51]
Anthony Grimani
The speakers you heard at that time had the amplifiers inside the speakers the way you build the majority of the big speakers. And there were already, and there are since then, some products out there in which here's a speaker, here's the dedicated amp for that speaker. But we thought it would be better to just have the amp in the speaker. And we got actually a fair amount of pushback from integrators on that. That said, you know what? I really like all the electronics in the rack. I like to manage it all in the rack. If there's a network connection, like our speakers or our amps are all network connected, which we'll talk about later, I'd want that all in the rack. So the market spoke to us, you know, the majority of the things we're selling are through integrators. And they said, you know, we'd rather you rip that amp out of those speakers and put it in the rack where we're used to putting electronics. And it's like, okay, okay. So I would say today 80 to 90% of what we sell is active. Well, they're always active speakers, but the amps are outboard. They're dedicated for the speaker or a pair of speakers or four subwoofers could be driven by one big amp, for example. But the amps are in the rack like they are in your room.
- [28:07]
Scott Wilkinson
Right. And I have a picture of the, the amps in the rack that I can show people. These are from a company called powersoft.
- [28:17]
Anthony Grimani
Yep.
- [28:17]
Scott Wilkinson
And this particular model is the meto. And we mounted them. You helped me do this. So put a little space between them. These are all class D amps, right?
- [28:29]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah, Class D. Class D. They take class D quite a bit forward in the state of the art. They sound audiophile, which is a really arrogant thing to say for Black Box. That doesn't look like anything special, but we did some extensive listening tests against known audiophile standards. And on a blind av, my partner and I couldn't tell the difference between one of these and I won't name any names, but recognizable brands of amplifiers. Classic ab. We didn't have any class A amps in, in the listening test, but on a, on a, you know, one of those stereophile or, or equivalent, you know, top rated amplifiers against this, there wasn't a discernible difference under normal conditions.
- [29:19]
Scott Wilkinson
So.
- [29:20]
Anthony Grimani
Very good answer.
- [29:21]
Scott Wilkinson
Yeah, the, and most of them, if we go back to the picture, we can see they're, they're organized. The top one, there's only one up the top and that' center channel. And then the, the next row down, the left one is the front left and right. And then the next to the right of it is the overhead left and right. And the one below that is the side surrounds and the one below the. And the one next to that is the rear surrounds. And then the two of at the bottom are the subwoofers. So, so these, most of these, except for the bottom ones are. Let me look up the number here. Metso M324A plus.
- [30:07]
Anthony Grimani
Exactly.
- [30:08]
Scott Wilkinson
Four channel amps. They have, they, they output up to 80 watts per channel. And I found this very interesting. They, they keep the same power rating whether you're driving two, four or eight ohm speakers.
- [30:23]
Anthony Grimani
Right. To a truly a power amp. Right. Regardless of the load, it's delivering the same combination of volts and current, which.
- [30:35]
Scott Wilkinson
I found very interesting.
- [30:36]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah, so there's another really interesting thing about those amps. So you can think of them as 80 watts per channel, or you can think of them as a brick of 320 watts. They implement a technology that's now appearing in some number of professional amps, which is power share. So if you drive one channel alone, like if you drive output one, you can get a hundred out of the 324, you can get 160 watts out of output one. If you drive one and two together equally, they go down to 80 watts. If you turn one off, you go back to 160. So it's sort of, it's not like they're bridging, it's just that they're sharing the power available from the power supply and the current into the output devices.
- [31:28]
Scott Wilkinson
And it depends on which ones are drawing power.
- [31:31]
Anthony Grimani
Exactly. So in your case, I think I showed you this. Even in the loudest scenes, it's always the woofers that require the highest voltage for power. And so we hook these things up to where each channel pair, there's a woofer on one and a tweeter on the other. When the woofers could be asking for 80 watts, the tweeters are asking for 1 or 2 watts. That's what normally happens with the sensitivity of these things. So the woofers can get more than 80 watts. They can actually go all the way up to 140, 150 watts, while the tweeter's still only asking 1 watt. So that's one of the reasons we use these amps, is that they're intelligent. They distribute their power the way you need them and, and they sound really good. They don't use a lot of power. And then there's one more feature which is they're completely digital signal processing enabled, we can configure a bazillion things in those amps to implement the crossover between the woofer and the tweeter. Adjust the frequency response of the speaker to the room, which is a necessity. I don't care how good or expensive of a speaker you have or how much you treated the acoustics, the room is always going to have its own thumbprint. We'll talk about that next week. And you can neutralize a fair amount of that thumbprint through the signal processing that's available in these amplifiers.
- [32:50]
Scott Wilkinson
So I want to just want to make clear to everybody that each of these amplifiers is four channels. And they are. And each channel is driving one driver in the speaker. And in the case of the front, right and left and all of the surrounds and overheads, there are two drivers. So with four channels you can drive two speakers, two speakers, two drivers in one speaker and two drivers in the other speaker.
- [33:19]
Anthony Grimani
This is often called bi powering or bi amping.
- [33:23]
Scott Wilkinson
Bi amping, right.
- [33:25]
Anthony Grimani
But that's one of the benefits of doing an active speaker is rather than do the crossover as a passive device inside the amplifier inside the speaker. That essentially works by sorting out what's the high frequencies that have to go to the tweeter and what are the low frequencies that go through the woofer. But it does so by essentially applying the brake, if you want to think of it that way. And you lose between 3 and 6 decibels of the available power. That's half the power or quarter the power gets to the drivers compared to what you put into it. Instead of that, we're doing that actively in the digital domain ahead of it so that all the power in the amplifiers can get to the drivers. You get a lot more sound pressure level from that.
- [34:09]
Scott Wilkinson
So it's much more efficient.
- [34:10]
Anthony Grimani
Way more efficient, yeah. You can also adjust the crossover way more precisely with passive components. There's only so many things you can do before the board has 500 parts on it. With a DSP signal control, you can adjust all kinds of different things in the frequency and the time domain. Let's say you really wanted the impulse response of the speaker, which is how it behaves in the time domain to be linear. You can do that with a DSP processor that you can't do in a passive crossover.
- [34:39]
Scott Wilkinson
A passive crossover. Right.
- [34:42]
Anthony Grimani
I'm sorry, I should mention that the subwoofer amps are not four channel. They're both two channel amps, essentially 600 watt bricks, one to drive the front subwoofer. One to drive the back subwoofer. They are two channel amps but since they're only driving one subwoofer each, they're acting like a mono block each.
- [35:04]
Scott Wilkinson
Right? Exactly. And they are. They're two channel amps. But because of this power sharing technology, all the power goes out one.
- [35:13]
Anthony Grimani
One port. Yeah.
- [35:14]
Scott Wilkinson
One port. Yeah. And the center channel is using one of these mezzo M324s to try amp the center channel. Right. Because it has two mid range woofers and one tweeter. So it has three drivers.
- [35:30]
Anthony Grimani
Exactly.
- [35:32]
Scott Wilkinson
And once again the power sharing can be used as it's needed. I mean that's just a beautiful thing.
- [35:38]
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- [37:11]
Scott Wilkinson
So let's see. Oh, I wanted to show you the wiring diagram. Show everybody the wiring diagram which is, is very nice. Again, a testament to the precision and care that, that your company and you particularly put into this. Everything is very well thought out here and clearly delineated, which really helped my installer.
- [37:38]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah. For every system we sell, we Produce a wiring diagram that shows what port goes to what, what gets connected where. So I sometimes joke that if we didn't do this, we'd have to take the phone call anyway. So we may as well do it ahead of time. Everybody is happy because there's a reference. This is what you do. Otherwise we. Even though there is an installation manual that goes out with every speaker, every amp, you know how it is. People don't like to read manuals. They want diagrams, they want pictures, they want something that helps them across.
- [38:12]
Scott Wilkinson
Yeah, it's true. It's true. So, so that was, that was the wiring diagram, the placement we looked at. And I decided I wanted to mount the speakers on the walls and ceiling rather than in. These speakers could be in wall, right. You could cut a hole the size of the speaker and mount it flush to the wall, right?
- [38:40]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah. Every single one of those has the ability to be mounted flush to the wall with a grill that sticks out a little bit because it gets snapped onto these flanges that get put around the speaker. We also have a recess mount where we provide a plate that's routed back. So the speaker ends up being about a quarter of an inch back from the face of the Sheetrock and you put a grill inside there. It does mean that your wall needs to be able to take it. So the speakers are all 4 inches deep. You can put a 4 inch speaker in a regular 2 by 4 wall, but you can't recess it. There's no room left. So for a recessed installation, you need, you need to make sure you have a two by six type stud or.
- [39:26]
Scott Wilkinson
Deeper, which I didn't have. I had two by four and I decided I wanted to put them on the wall instead of in the wall for ease of installation. I did. I really didn't want to cut those big holes in the Sheetrock and do it that way. And I don't need that for my own aesthetic purpose. I can be perfectly fine with having them on the wall.
- [39:51]
Anthony Grimani
Right.
- [39:52]
Scott Wilkinson
So the installation was done by a guy named Greg Wint and his assistant Mark from Wint Audio Video Solutions right here in Santa Cruz. And I have a couple of pictures of that. Here they are installing some of the, some of the ceiling speakers. And they, you know, your directions were, were very clear. I think we only had to call you a couple times.
- [40:18]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah.
- [40:21]
Scott Wilkinson
Here'S a. And you can see here in this picture the window. We opened up the window and the sliding glass door to provide more light for the installation. But you can see how it would have Been difficult to put a, A rear surround speaker back there on the wall. There's another picture of them doing that.
- [40:40]
Anthony Grimani
Notice the gray walls. Thank you for doing that.
- [40:43]
Scott Wilkinson
Yes, well, I, I consulted with you before choosing that paint as well. That's a very specific Munsell gray. Very neutral.
- [40:52]
Anthony Grimani
Right.
- [40:55]
Scott Wilkinson
And there are also a couple of pictures in this sequence of Greg taking the speaker wire which they routed through the walls and they come out these plates that you see on the left here. And he had to. He had to put little connectors at the ends of the bare wires because the amps have a kind of a special connector. They're not standard binding posts or banana plugs or anything like that.
- [41:26]
Anthony Grimani
It's called a detachable Phoenix connector. And it actually makes life easier in installation because like you saw in this picture, your. You're working on the connector right there, you know, in the comfort of your crouching position. When it's time to connect it, you just go, click, click. Otherwise you'd be like with binding posts on the back. And by the way, by the time you have four or eight channels of connectors, trying to put binding posts or the little push terminals is just. It just doesn't work.
- [41:59]
Scott Wilkinson
It's just in this picture, he's. He's doing the snake, which goes between the processor and the amp. Amps to feed the amps. And he's doing that same thing, but at the comfort of the island in the kitchen.
- [42:11]
Anthony Grimani
Right.
- [42:13]
Scott Wilkinson
So. So that was. That was very, very clean and nice. And then finally you came over, flew down from, from your home in Northern California to do the calibration. And I got a couple pictures of that too. So you. We can look at that while the process.
- [42:38]
Anthony Grimani
Well, number one in the process is to look as geeky as possible and put a light on your forehead.
- [42:44]
Scott Wilkinson
Right. Of course.
- [42:45]
Anthony Grimani
Otherwise you don't look serious. And if I could, I would actually wear like a lab coat with a pocket protector, but it was too warm.
- [42:55]
Scott Wilkinson
You know what? I have a lab coat. I should have given it to you.
- [43:00]
Anthony Grimani
So this is a cool process. So I'm sitting there with my improvised desk, which is one of your stools. On that desk is my laptop. If you actually. I'm going to actually do a little tour. If you look at the first cable on the left of the laptop, which is this relatively large black and white cable that's sort of braided. Braided. That's an HDMI cable that's leaving my laptop and going to your surround decoder. My laptop is running roomeq wizard, which is a program I absolutely love. I've got lots of other choices of analysis and signal testing, but I've settled on roomeq Wizard a while back. If you guys want to do calibration, that's the tool to use. It's a free download, but please give a donation between 50 and 100 bucks or more to the company who designed this or the guy who designed this because he is really a jewel of the industry. So, anyway, so there's a HDMI cable that goes to the system to feed it a left, a center, a right, you know, whatever signal I need to be what's called exciting the speaker with. It's an ex.
- [44:13]
Scott Wilkinson
I'm all about exciting the speaker.
- [44:15]
Anthony Grimani
It's really exciting. Let's go back to that picture and I'll continue. So then there is a. The next wire, there is a network connection. So I actually have a dongle there to go from the USB connection to a network connection. That network port is going directly to the switch onto which are connected all of the amplifiers. So the amplifiers, again, they are all digital signal processing, but you address them through network through IP interface.
- [44:48]
Scott Wilkinson
They all have an ethernet port. And you connect the ethernet port from each amp to an ethernet switch.
- [44:54]
Anthony Grimani
Yep.
- [44:55]
Scott Wilkinson
And you can address. You can access all of them.
- [44:57]
Anthony Grimani
Right. And then the last cable that actually expands out to two other things on the other end, you can't see it, but it's probably going to what's called my interface box, which is the thing that converts analog signals into digital through usb. Now, somewhere else here is a multiplexer. I'll explain that in a second, but I'm going to go to the other side. You see three microphones here. The fourth microphone is somewhere probably behind me. So the process is to set up four microphones at the various seats in the room, various locations where you want to measure. You plug those into a switcher, a thing that allows you to select microphone 1, 2, 3, or 4, or select any group of microphones. You can do 1 and 2, 1, 2, 3, 4. And the multiplexer just switches around them at the rate of about once a second. The output of that signal, which is an analog signal, goes to the interface, the actual analog to digital converter. The output of that goes into the laptop. And I'm typically using what's in room EQ wizard, known as PinkPN, pseudo random noise that's feeding, you know, one speaker at a time. I'm measuring it out of the four microphones, but it's switching between the four and I have the analyzer set for averaging over eight, or between eight and 16 seconds. Usually eight is enough. And so I'm looking at the average of what the sound character is at those four microphones. I'm feeding a response. I'm feeding a signal into the speakers that's called pink noise, that has equal energy at every frequency. And. And I want to adjust the equalizer in the amplifiers until I get that back into the analyzer.
- [46:49]
Scott Wilkinson
So you're feeding them equal energy at every frequency. You want the sound coming from the speakers to be the same. To be the same, right? To measure the same from those microphones.
- [47:01]
Anthony Grimani
However, this is where the things get tricky, where, just like in all fields, there's the basics, and there's what happens at the 101 level and the 200 level and at the 400 level. Unfortunately, the way those microphones work in the room with the sound pressure of the speaker and the dispersion of the speaker and the sound power of the speaker and the reflection decay time of the speaker, and the way an omnidirectional microphone, which is what one of these are, they pick up sound in all directions, is as compared to the human ear, doesn't quite translate. So if you actually were to adjust everything until you got a perfectly straight line, what people call flat frequency response, a straight line between bass and treble, the sound's going to be really edgy and uncomfortable. And this has been amply documented for decades by many people, including Dr. Floy Toole and his acolyte Sean Olive, who have done a lot of work on, you know, what do listeners hear, why, what's going on? And really, it's a combination of a little bit of listener preferences, but much more of how an omnidirectional microphone in a room with a sound power that's not flat with frequency, with speakers that are not flat sound power with frequency, what it is you got to do to make that match what you feel sounds good. And really the answer is rather than a perfectly flat line, it's a line where there is a gain in the low frequencies from 20Hz to about 100Hz of about 4 or 5 dB. And then it rotates down a little bit to 2 or 300Hz, and then it's about a flat line with a slight depression. And then at some high frequency, usually 6 or 8 kilohertz, it rolls down a little bit more. That's what's known as the target curve, which doesn't apply to every room. It's a good average. But that's what I do is I start off by adjusting the bands of equalization that are in the amplifier until you yield, you know, those four microphones. Measuring the room on average, yields a response. That is a target curve. I would call that level 200 or 300 of how to do this. Then there's a level 400.
- [49:20]
Scott Wilkinson
Yeah.
- [49:21]
Anthony Grimani
Which is even though that target curve has been amply documented for decades now, it's a target curve. It's an average. So if I just left it that way, you would go, that sounds great. Thank you. It's amazing. But I may still find that, you know what, the bass is a little loud or a little shy. The mids. I'll find from listening to program material repeatedly. I'll find that we need a little bit of this tweak or that tweak. And you remember doing that where we sat and listened to a whole bunch of program material. Reaching over for something that I want to show all y'all. Not only do we do it subjectively where I don't ever want to do on my own without an agreement from somebody that, yeah, it's a little too bright or a little too dull, we just listen to six or seven pieces of music that we are both familiar with or movies. And, you know, I equate this a little bit to following a recipe to a T. You follow a recipe, you cook it exactly that way. And you know what? In the end, it may just lack a little salt or pepper or cumin or whatever it is that you're. And then you give yourself the permission to add a little bit, by the.
- [50:38]
Scott Wilkinson
Way, Season to taste.
- [50:40]
Anthony Grimani
Season to taste. Of course, the problem is, is, is if there's too much salt, I don't know what to do. I've. I've read people say if there's too much salt, you do a bit of this and you add a little bit of that and whatever. But I do want to point out, and you may remember this, that part of the process of that 400 level of the. The seasoning to taste, I like that involves these little guys that you've seen me wear a lot.
- [51:06]
Scott Wilkinson
Yeah, right. Right.
- [51:08]
Anthony Grimani
On. On earlier of these. These webcasts, I wear these instead of listening to speakers. But these are what's called etymotic ER4s. It's a very high quality. I guess they call it earbud. It's called a transducer that you plug into your ear nice and snug. And on the other end of this, I plug in the same music that we're listening to through a phone, an iPhone, you know, whatever you're using and. Or pink noise. And I listen to the speakers, and I listen to what's going directly into my ear canal, and I listen to the speakers, and it's amazing what you can detect from this. You may notice that, you know what, that snare drum just sounds like it's a little too far back, what's going on. And you go back and look at the frequency response and you say, oh, there's a little bit of a sway back in the mid range. I didn't notice. And then you pull things up a half a DB for an octave and boom, there's a snare drum. So that's what we did. That's the level 400. And you remember we spent a fair amount of time getting, like that final little tuning in.
- [52:18]
Scott Wilkinson
Yep, yep, we sure did. We sure did. And it. It made. It made a great difference, I thought. Now, this was even before the acoustic treatments, which we're going to talk about in the next episode.
- [52:30]
Anthony Grimani
Right.
- [52:30]
Scott Wilkinson
And I remember you actually putting up a blanket or some pad in one spot and saying, how does that sound as a pair as opposed to not, which helped you figure out the acoustic treatments at least to some degree.
- [52:45]
Anthony Grimani
We did some ad hoc acoustic treatments during the tuning. Your room, you're probably going there, but you need to know that the room, the whole left wall, is a thick drape. There also are drapes on the right wall over the window and drapes on the back. So just naturally, like you mentioned in a recent podcast, the stuff of life is already there to bring the reverb time down or the reflection decay time down to a reasonable level. But you had a big section of wall where there is a strong reflection on one side and not on the other. It's like, well, is this audible? So I think I had you go out and get a yoga mat.
- [53:26]
Scott Wilkinson
Yes.
- [53:26]
Anthony Grimani
I don't know what you found. You wouldn't have found.
- [53:28]
Scott Wilkinson
No, it was a yoga mat.
- [53:29]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah, yoga mat. So after we did our yoga together and we meditated over the thing, we put it on the wall and like, you know, do you hear a difference? On and off, on and off. And we agreed. Yep. It was worth doing something to that section of wall. Which you did later.
- [53:45]
Scott Wilkinson
Right. Which we're going to talk about in the next episode. But for now, I think we've covered a lot of ground here, and I sure appreciate you being here to explain all of this to us. And at the end of this Episode. Why don't you tell us where people can find you?
- [54:05]
Anthony Grimani
Yeah. Can I digress for just one quick second about something that may not be apparent? So you showed the pictures of where all of your top side and back speakers were, and they're all up there?
- [54:18]
Scott Wilkinson
Yes. You want to see that one again?
- [54:22]
Anthony Grimani
Sure. Or do you have any pictures now that the room's all finished? That shows?
- [54:26]
Scott Wilkinson
I do, but I was going to show it next week.
- [54:28]
Anthony Grimani
Okay. So those all look like they're on the ceiling. And it should sound like the sound is all up in the ceiling for anything that's not in the front. Did it sound that way to you?
- [54:39]
Scott Wilkinson
No. And this. I was going to talk about this next week. Okay.
- [54:43]
Anthony Grimani
Speakers and not so much about acoustical treatments.
- [54:46]
Scott Wilkinson
Okay, well, then I'll talk about it now.
- [54:48]
Anthony Grimani
So how come it doesn't sound like it's up there over your head all the time?
- [54:54]
Scott Wilkinson
Well, please, professor, answer the question. Why doesn't it sound like that? I've been want. I wanted to ask that question.
- [55:03]
Anthony Grimani
So these speakers, they look like they have a little horn in them, but it's a waveguide. And actually the role of that waveguide is to do kind of the inverse of what you see in most horns. Most horns. Their job is to increase the sound pressure level of the speaker and focus the energy forward. This is doing the inverse. Its job is to take the radiation output of a tweeter and spray it really wide, more or less plus and minus 80 degrees. A regular tweeter is going to radiate plus and minus 30 degrees. And with this waveguide, we actually splay it out to be much wider. So when you're sitting in your seat over there, you're hit with a little bit of vector or sound directly from the speaker, and then you're hit by a lot of later reflected sounds that are coming from the walls at a lower height. So it is. I. Sometimes, psychoacoustically, your perception is the sound is lower in the room than where those things are now.
- [56:05]
Scott Wilkinson
That's not going to be true. That reflection off the wall is not going to be true of the side with the curtain.
- [56:11]
Anthony Grimani
Of the curtain. Correct. So there is enough reflection off the ceiling and other boundaries around that essentially confuse you enough to not feel like it's all up there. That's the thing. A more traditional speaker that would be a regular woofer tweeter without that really wide splaying would give much more of an image that's up there because it's going to energize a Lot less of the reflected energy in the higher frequencies where. Where you're sensing where the sound is coming from. And like they say in England, the proofs in the pudding, I guess, you know how well you cook that pudding. The result is, yeah, it doesn't sound like it's all in the ceiling. Which is why we take the liberty on the compromises to put a bunch of speakers up there going, you know what, I know that you don't want the entire movie to be coming up from up there, but believe me, it's going to sound like it's lower.
- [57:02]
Scott Wilkinson
That's right.
- [57:03]
Anthony Grimani
Like that guy.
- [57:04]
Scott Wilkinson
I don't think it. I would have to say I didn't think it was as low as it would have been if there were speakers actually on the sides.
- [57:13]
Anthony Grimani
No doubt about it.
- [57:14]
Scott Wilkinson
But it's certainly lower down than I would have expected.
- [57:19]
Anthony Grimani
Right, right.
- [57:20]
Scott Wilkinson
No question about it.
- [57:21]
Anthony Grimani
So there it is. Even though you have a big curtain on one side that's absorbing not everything, you know, the highs are still bouncing off that fabric. Even though you have that. The overall sound field in the room, what I call the sound power, the bubble of sound, is a combination of that sound coming from up plus all the reflections in which the net height is basically between the height of your ear and the height of the speaker. It's at the average, so it's there. And that works for the surrounds. It also works for the fronts. Once in a while, we're forced to put a center speaker above a big screen that goes all the way to the ceiling. And we use the same kind of speakers you have there, the W or the wire wd, which is a recessed version. And people remark. It's like, you know, I know the speaker's there, but it sort of sounds like it's, you know, other than coming from the ceiling, it sounds like it's coming from there. And the actor, which is still not the ideal thing, which is. You'd want it to come from.
- [58:14]
Scott Wilkinson
Come from there. Yeah, right, right.
- [58:16]
Anthony Grimani
It's a reasonable compromise.
- [58:18]
Scott Wilkinson
Well, and we. What we decided to do if. If you can pull once more the. The first placement graphic, which is. I'll tell you in a minute, graphic seven. We can see how we place the front speakers. And I just want to mention that a little bit, since we're talking about placement here. There it is. We put the front, left and right speakers down below where they normally would go. Normally they would sort of be in the center front, a top to bottom of the TV screen, but they're down below. They're down lower. And my. The installer said, really? You really want to do that? And I said, yes, because putting the center channel just below the screen, you want the right and left to be more or less in a line with the center. Now, it's not perfect in this case, but you don't want it to. You don't want the right and left to be too much higher than the center because then you lose that continuity of. Of right to left.
- [59:22]
Anthony Grimani
Right. So that's an interesting example of how there's. In the Rubik's cube thinking or the, you know, the 5,000 piece puzzle thinking of this. There's a lot of effects that affect each other. So you can't look at any one decision in isolation of everything else. Yes, ideally, you know, by the way, the center of radiation of that speaker is just a few inches down from the top of the cabinet. So it's just down a little bit from the middle of the screen. If you only had left and right speakers and not worried about a center, you would put them up a little higher. But like you said, you want a nice continuity. When sounds go from left through center to right or right through the sound field, you want them to sound not like a smile shape like that, but you want them to be even. So there is a compromise, right? You have to consider all the factors and go, okay, I'm going to lower those so that the continuity is better.
- [60:14]
Scott Wilkinson
Right, Right, exactly. So that's what I explained to him and he got it. He thought it was okay. Okay, so now at the end of this episode, tell us where we can find you.
- [60:28]
Anthony Grimani
So you can find me either on an airplane, on my way somewhere.
- [60:33]
Scott Wilkinson
You travel a lot, man.
- [60:34]
Anthony Grimani
A guy intercepted me at the airport in Munich. When I was on my way to the Munich hi fi show last year, a Danish guy who was following me on YouTube and he was like, hey, you're Mr. Grimani. It's like, like, what? What did I do? So no, easiest way is to go to www.grimani tv, just like my name is spelled R G R I M A N I tv. That will bring you to the speaker company. If you want to talk about design services, the company is different. It's www.pmiltd.com. that stands for performancemediaindustrieslimited.com pmiltd.com and then finally, if you're interested in looking at some of the really cool acoustical treatments we're bringing in from Europe, it's a company called Sonitus, which is the goddess of sound. Ah, very nice. So the website is actually Sonitus USA S O N I T Where do I T u s?
- [61:46]
Scott Wilkinson
Yep.
- [61:46]
Anthony Grimani
USA.com and you'll see some really cool acoustical materials there, some of which you ended up using. We'll look at that next week. Some next week. Some of which there's a ever expanding range of really cool looking things. I'll say this. Making an absorber out of a regular piece of fiberglass or rock wool and a square or rectangle, that's easy. You don't need to bring anything from outside the world, but they don't look very pretty. So we're working with this company in Europe that has a great design sensibility at making things that you can put on the wall and make it look like modern art. The best compliment is when one of our clients builds a room, puts all the stuff everywhere and their friends come over and go, wow, I like all the modern sculptures you put up here.
- [62:35]
Scott Wilkinson
Right, right. Good. Well, we will talk about that next week.
- [62:40]
Anthony Grimani
Sounds great.
- [62:41]
Scott Wilkinson
So thanks a lot for being here and we will see you then.
- [62:47]
Anthony Grimani
Great. Thank you so much, Scott. This was fun.
- [62:49]
Scott Wilkinson
Good. Glad to think so. I think so too. So if you have a question for me, you can send it along to htgwit TV and I'll answer as many as I can right here on the show. Now, recently Twit decided to put all of its shows on YouTube so you can watch them there. But they have commercials. If you want to go ad free, join the club, just go to Twit tv Club Twit and you can join Club Twit and see all of our shows ad free. So I hope you'll think about it. Until next time. Next time, geek out.