Home Theater Geeks 499: CEDIA 2025 Part 1

Summary

Home Theater Geeks 499: CEDIA 2025 Part 1

Date: September 11, 2025
Host: Scott Wilkinson
Guest: Michael Heiss (industry consultant, journalist, and longtime CEDIA participant)
Theme: Recap and Insights from CEDIA 2025 Expo—Video & Display Technologies

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Scott Wilkinson and Michael Heiss dive into the highlights, surprises, and trends from the CEDIA 2025 Expo, one of the premier events for the custom electronics and smart home industry. While focused primarily on video technologies—displays, art TVs, projectors, and processors—the episode also details shifts in industry presence, emerging product categories, and strategic moves by major players. This is the first of a two-part breakdown (audio to follow in the next episode).

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Major Topics & Key Insights

1. The Shape of CEDIA 2025: Missing Players and Shifting Trends

• Exhibitor Absences: Notably, major brands like LG, Digital Projection, and Planar skipped exhibiting on the main floor, and several companies had a reduced presence (e.g., LG had only a meeting room).
  • Cause: Logistics, tariffs, and the scheduling clash with Europe's IFA (International Funkausstellung) event.

    "A lot of the exhibitors that weren't… just chose not to come to CEDIA this year because they were already at IFA in Berlin." – Michael Heiss [04:23]

• Fewer “World Premieres”: Most products were not debuted at CEDIA, but rather at IFA or earlier industry shows, suggesting increased industry stability and an expanded focus beyond just home theater.

  "It's not just the home theater people anymore... heavy dose of lighting and shades and home control." – Michael Heiss [06:13]

2. Hot Topic: TVs—TCL, Samsung, and the Push for Huge Panels

• TCL's Phased Product Strategy:
  • TCL introduced the QM9K at CEDIA—unusual, as most brands reserved big announcements for IFA/CES.

    "TCL, now about 20 years in the US market... For the second year in a row was at the CEDIA Expo, shows where they're going." – Michael Heiss [08:21]

  • Specs: 4K, 144Hz, quantum mini-LED backlight, Google Gemini AI.
• Panel Size Wars:
  • TCL showed their QM7K at a jaw-dropping 115", as well as what a 75" set looks like inside the frame of a 115".
• Samsung’s Micro LED Evolution:
  • Samsung debuted a 115" set with RGB micro-LED backlight (not just mini-LED), offering unparalleled brightness and color (claims 100% of BT.2020—wide color gamut).

    "If I had $30,000, I'd be buying one... It was the best flat screen I've seen ever." – Michael Heiss [10:51]

  • Samsung’s QN90F (also 115”) is more conventional mini-LED, but slightly lower in price.
• Smart Home Integration:
  • Increasingly, TVs serve as the hub for smart controls (esp. Samsung SmartThings, Matter compatibility).

    "That was a high point of showing the integration of the TV set as the center of control for the home." – Michael Heiss [13:44]

3. Art TVs—Design Meets Technology

• Art TVs display curated artwork when not in use; a growing category as more brands (e.g., Samsung’s “The Frame”; Skyworth; TCL; Sony with Leon Speakers) enter the space.
  • Key Trend: These sets leverage ongoing content subscriptions for artwork, echoing broader industry RMR (recurring monthly revenue) models.

    "The true test of all of these... is if you look at it and you poke it, you want to say, 'that looks like it’s a real canvas—no, it's a TV set.'" – Michael Heiss [17:17] "Nobody makes money on TVs. They make money on the subscriptions." – Michael Heiss [19:51]

4. Direct View LED (DVLED)/MicroLED Walls—Luxury and Modularity

• DVLED (“direct view micro-LED”) displays were showstoppers—modular, ultra-bright (up to 2,000 nits), and endlessly scalable but still strictly upper-tier in cost.

  • Quantum Media Systems’ XDR 4-8K Extreme: 20-foot-wide, 2,000 nits, DCI (Digital Cinema Initiatives) certified, customizable per installation.

    "Cost notwithstanding, these things are modular... you can fit them to the room size." – Michael Heiss [21:35] "Nothing I've seen compares to the Quantum." – Michael Heiss [23:21]

  • AWOL (A-Wall): Now offers DVLED walls at up to 25% of the cost of competitors (still expensive, but a disruptive claim).

• Other Major Brands: DVLED walls from Barco, Sony (Crystal LED), and Samsung (“The Wall”) remain deeply niche—primarily for ultra high-end home installs and commercial spaces.

  • C SEED: Noted for its modular, unfolding DVLED designs.

5. Projection—Still Alive, If Less Dominant

• Projectors were less of a focus, but still represented in demos, especially with larger manufacturers like Sony (Bravia 7), Epson (LS9000), JVC (DLA NZ900/NZ700 with “8K pixel shift”), Barco, and Christie (Eclipse G3).

  • Demo Highlight: Bright, laser-lit, high-contrast projectors mainly in multi-brand collaborative demo rooms.

    "Projectors are far from dead." – Michael Heiss [31:01]

• Projection Screens:

  • New offerings like Screen Innovations' "Chaos" for outdoor use (withstand winds up to 110 mph), and EVPs’ Dark Star UST3 elevate, a floor-rising ALR screen for ultra-short-throw setups.

6. Video Processors & Sources

• Processors: MadVR's new Core Mark 2 ($6–7k), Pro Mark III ($11k), Envy Extreme Mark III ($16k), all HDMI 2.1 (48 Gbps). Lumagen remains a top competitor.

  • Subjectively hard to judge which processor is “best,” due to lack of A/B comparisons on the show floor.

• Sources:

  • Kaleidoscape dominates the source player market at CEDIA-grade installations—now with Strato E ($3,000 entry).

    "I kind of pooh-poohed [Kaleidoscape] a few years ago. They own it." – Michael Heiss [44:39]

  • Ultra HD Blu-Ray: Physical disc demos vanishing; virtually none at the show except, reportedly, Magnetar.

7. 8K—Not Dead Yet

• The 8K Association made a push at the show, emphasizing that remastering efforts (esp. MGM/Amazon, Warner Bros) and upcoming sports (Super Bowl, Olympics) will keep 8K relevant.

  • Future-Proofing: Numerous film and camera formats (including IMAX and RED digital) support 8K+ resolutions.

    "Reports of 8K's death are greatly exaggerated." – Michael Heiss [41:48]

    “I’d love to see an 8K of Oppenheimer because that was filmed in IMAX.” – Michael Heiss [42:24]

8. Infrastructure: Must-Have Network Redundancy

• Eero’s Signal Device: Offers 4G/5G cellular backup for home internet—a response to large-scale outages and the need for “always on” connectivity.

  • "You plug that in the back of one of your units and if the Internet goes out... you got a backup source." – Michael Heiss [47:53]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On CEDIA’s changing landscape:

“Now it’s CEDIA and it’s the home for smart... smart home professionals.” – Michael Heiss [06:52]

On Samsung’s RGB MicroLED:

"If I had $30,000, I’d be buying one... It was the best flat screen I’ve seen ever.” – Michael Heiss [10:51]

On subscription models:

"Nobody makes money on TVs. They make money on the subscriptions." – Michael Heiss [19:51]

On Modular DVLED:

“These things are modular... that determines the resolution, which is a whole nother story. So... you can fit them to the room size.” – Michael Heiss [21:35]

On 8K’s future:

“Reports of 8K's death are greatly exaggerated.” – Michael Heiss [41:48]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:26] — Introductions, CEDIA background, changing industry dynamics
• [04:23] — Absentees, IFA/CEDIA overlap, re-focusing of CEDIA
• [07:41] — TV Deep Dive: TCL QM9K, Samsung MicroLED, pricing, smart home integration
• [15:57] — Art TVs: Skyworth, Samsung “The Frame," streamable art content, recurring revenue
• [20:32] — Direct View LED: Quantum Media, AWOL, modularity, pricing
• [30:31] — Projectors: Not new, but present. Christie, Sony, Barco, JVC, Epson
• [36:40] — Projection Screens: Motorized, ALR, outdoor use
• [39:51] — Video Processors: MadVR, Lumagen, source devices; rise of Kaleidoscape
• [40:04] — 8K Association: Content availability, broadcast plans, ecosystem
• [45:50] — Redundancy/Networks: Eero 4G/5G backup
• [48:52] — Where to find Michael Heiss online; preview of Part 2

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Closing & Next Episode Tease

The hosts will return with Part 2, focusing on audio demos and more industry insights from CEDIA 2025.

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Find Michael Heiss:

• Residential Tech Today
• Hidden Wires
• michaelheiss.com

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For listener questions:
Email: [e-mail]

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Summary Prepared for Fans & Non-Listeners

This episode delivers a knowledgeable, conversational, and sometimes light-hearted look at the future of high-end home video technology—and the business realities shaping what’s coming to luxury homes (and, one day, ours). Whether you’re a seasoned installer or dream of a wall-filling 8K display, it’s a must-listen for anyone passionate about home cinema and the ever-evolving smart home.

Transcript

[Scott Wilkinson]

In this episode of Home Theater Geeks, I'm joined by my friend and industry consultant Michael Heiss, and we're going to be talking about the recently finished CEDIA 2025 Expo. So stay tuned.

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[Michael Heiss]

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Podcasts you love.

[Michael Heiss]

From people you trust. This is twit.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Hey there, Scott Wilkinson here, the home theater geek. In this episode we're going to be talking about cedia, the Custom Electronics Design and Installation association which had their expo last week in lovely Denver, Colorado. And I'm joined by my good friend, industry consultant and journalist and jolly good CEDIA fellow Michael Heiss. Hey Mike, welcome back to the show.

[Michael Heiss]

Hey Scott, how you doing? It's been a while and happy to do a report on the convention from the convention center behind the big blue bear.

[Scott Wilkinson]

The big blue bear. I remember it well. Now this I don't know about you. I went to CEDIA for at least 20 years, probably more. You've been probably going for 30 or more.

[Michael Heiss]

I have an asterisk like Roger Maris used to. I've been to everyone except for one during COVID one after Covid and one like six weeks after my stroke. And I was sort of advised that it wouldn't be a good idea.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Not a good idea.

[Michael Heiss]

But I've been through and instructed at every one.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Wow. And you're wearing your CEDIA instructor T shirt there.

[Michael Heiss]

So we all know and instructed four courses in one panel with. Which is why I'm a little ditzy right now.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. And you just got back like yesterday, right? Or day before.

[Michael Heiss]

Yes, Saturday night. Yeah.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, man. Well, thank you so much for coming on, even though you're probably still a bit jet lagged. And so we're going to talk about the show in two parts, two episodes. This part we're going to focus on video. And one of the important parts of this story is, is what was not at the show. I mean that's. That was quite amiss. Amazing to me. What. What can you tell us about?

[Michael Heiss]

Well, there are one or two things I think that, you know, industry and business writ large and tariffs and all of that nonsense that could be one factor. The other factor is that the same week last week as CDA was ifa, the International Funkenstocken in Berlin, which is a. It is, you could call it the CES of Europe. Except a couple of the days are open to the public and picture, you know, 150,000 people coming to a venue that's the size of a good community college. But a lot of the exhibitors that weren't that were at high. High sense being one of them with some very important announcements, just chose not to come to CD this year because.

[Scott Wilkinson]

They were already at IFA in Berlin.

[Michael Heiss]

Yep, yep. But you know, LG wasn't. It was a good show.

[Scott Wilkinson]

LG wasn't.

[Michael Heiss]

It had a meeting room.

[Scott Wilkinson]

They had a meeting room, but they didn't have a booth. Digital projection planar. There were a number of companies that weren't there. The other interesting thing, sort of non thing was that almost all of the products that you saw there were not introduced or announced at cedia. A lot of them were introduced at ifa. So IFA kind of took cedia's thunder a little bit, huh?

[Michael Heiss]

Well, I think again there are Some, you know, things amiss in the world at the moment that is responsible for that. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that there weren't any new. New. New. Never saw it before. First showing up because that shows that there's some stability in the business. Because it's interesting when you, you know, spelled out C, E, D, I, A, just like NPR is not National Public Radio anymore, it's npr. The NAB is not the national association of Broadcasters. It's NAB because the membership is. Is comprised of many other people. So now it's cedia and it's the Home for Smart. Oh, man, I'm gonna get. I'll have to look it up. Smart home professionals. But it is because it's not just the home theater people anymore. There was a heavy, you know, sorry. There was a heavy dose of lighting and shades and many. Home control, of course, and backup power and things of that nature that are not traditional or home theater at all. But the industry, as the industry has grown, what the people who practice in it have grown to do other things than just home theater.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. Last year you told us about the. The laundry chute system that people could put in their home.

[Michael Heiss]

But I got a better one for this year.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, you got a better one for this year. We'll talk about that later. Let's do start with TVs, however, because, you know, TVs are an important part of. Of any home system. And TCL was there, for example, with their QM9K. That's a pretty new model, brand new.

[Michael Heiss]

Announced at the show.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Oh, this was one that. This was an exception. This was actually announced at the show.

[Michael Heiss]

Well, ECO has done a very interesting thing. They had a huge booth at CES this year, as they always do. But rather than sort of show everything that they were going to announce for the year at ces, they did a very interesting thing, and they did phased introductions. So since CES, you've had the QM7, the QM8, and now the QM9. So they're sort of bringing them out in bits and pieces. And I will say the TCL, which is now about 20 years in the US market, where some people used to say, yeah, you know, that's just for warehouse clubs.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Michael Heiss]

The fact that TCL for the second year in the row was at the Cedia Expo, shows where they're going. And that set, that QM9, that was, you know, the match for almost anything.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, you said it looked really good, and I believe you. It's a quantum.mini LED backlight, LCD TV, 4K, 144Hz refresh rate. So it's good for gaming. Supports all the high dynamic range systems. Powered by Google Gemini, which is, I believe, Google's AI, Right.

[Michael Heiss]

Yes. If we just go back to ces, it was one of those strange things where LG and Samsung are going with Copilot and Hisense and tcl, which are kind of the top four brands these days.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Michael Heiss]

The positioning may vary, but they're the top four brands. Hisense and TCL went with Google.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Michael Heiss]

Gemini.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. And TCL also had in their booth their 115 inch behemoth, the QM7K which you took a picture of. And here it is. And I use this picture you sent me several of it. And I use this one because there's a picture of what a 75 inch.

[Michael Heiss]

Yeah.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Is inside the, the frame of the 115 inch. So that's quite a bit more screen real estate.

[Michael Heiss]

In fact, when I sent you that picture, I looked at, I said, did I send them the one of the 115 or the 75? And then when you see that black border around it, you realize what they're doing.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep, exactly. Which I thought was very cool. Okay, next up we have Samsung and they a few months ago announced along with a couple other companies that they were going to start doing LED backlights, but not white backlights, but rather red, green and blue RGB backlights.

[Michael Heiss]

Yep.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And they announced either at CDA or shortly before that, those LED backlights were going to be micro scale, not mini LEDs like most high end TVs today. But micro RGB LEDs are still backlights to an LCD panel.

[Michael Heiss]

But they did announce that, or they said that they were going to do it back at ces. And I did see it at CES in the secret room behind the secret room.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Michael Heiss]

So that was the first time that I'd seen it. And at that point it was an 85, the one they had on the floor both at IFA and CD. It was a 115. And I gotta tell you, Scott, that was if I had $30,000, I'd be buying one and a room where I could fit it and the money to punch a hole in the wall to get it in the house. I'd be getting one of those. It was the best flat screen I've seen ever.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Wow. Wow. Beating out oled.

[Michael Heiss]

Yes. And in your opinion, the other two, in my humble opinion, and the other guys that are doing that are Hisense which are also doing an rgb but they're doing mini, not micro.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Michael Heiss]

So the technology that's in the Samsung is the same thing that's in the DV LEDs, but it's used as a backlight. And interesting. The Samsung which had, they said the largest booth on the show floor, but the Harman luxury audio people and their associated brands were also in that booth. They for the first time since they introduced it did not show the wall. So they had this big RGB backlight set but no direct view LEDs in the Samsung.

[Scott Wilkinson]

How very interesting. Wow. They claim to that marketing decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they claim that it hits 100% of BT 2020 color space, which is the ultimate color space and as you said before cost $30,000. Now very interestingly, they have another 100. Go ahead.

[Michael Heiss]

No, but, but, but damn. Well, you know, Curtis Mathis, for those of you of a certain age, their advertising slogan is the most expensive TV set when TV sets were 21 inches.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right?

[Michael Heiss]

Most expensive TV set and damn well worth it.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep. Yeah.

[Michael Heiss]

And I can say that about this one.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep. Well, interestingly, Samsung had another 115 inch TV, the QN90F which is also 4K. It's I think it's a mini LED, conventional mini LED backlight that's in the next graphic set. That's a good looking set I'm sure. And they, and they charge $27,000 for that. So you know, it's like really you're.

[Michael Heiss]

Gonna, the pundits on the show floor that I spoke to said I'll bet they'll be lowering that price soon.

[Scott Wilkinson]

That picture we saw of it that you took also had a smart TV kind of theme to it which indicates Samsung and other manufacturers are banking on the TV becoming the smart hub of the entire home.

[Michael Heiss]

Well, that, that shot that John just put up there, that was of matter and Matter Matters Media, you know, is the association for Smart Home Professionals or Residential Technology Professionals or I'm gonna probably get drunk. They're going to take my lifetime achievement to work because I can't remember that they what they, what they are these days, take it away from me. But that was a high point of showing the integration of the TV set as the center of control for the home. And that actually is not the micro RGB set.

[Scott Wilkinson]

No, I thought it was the mini. The Mini rgb.

[Michael Heiss]

Yes, that one was the Mini. That's what I wrote. They didn't show the smart things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that's just showing how all These technologies are blending together.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right? Right.

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[Will]

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[Michael Heiss]

Bon voyage.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

Now one category that you mentioned to me that I've seen for a few years now and it seems to be gaining steam is what are so called Art TVs that is when you're not watching a TV show, they put art on the screen, you know, from museums or wherever. And we have a few pictures of those too. Skyworth, which is a Chinese company only now making starting to come into the US Market. Right?

[Michael Heiss]

Yeah, they, they, you know they've been around when, when I go on my business trips to China, they're all over the place. They but for the past two or three years they are very gradually, they're not just blasting in, they're doing this in a very determined manner. And they have some outdoor sets and then they have their one that you're showing the canvas set and it's 100 inch and it's a very good set. And you know it's one of those things where the true test of all of these and it's Samsung's the frame, they kind of started this and TCL has the next paper and canvas from Skyworth and we on speakers are doing that in conjunction with Sony Bravia. The true test is if you look at it and you poke it, you want to Say that looks like it's a real canvas. No, it's a TV set. And it is a growing category in the sense that if two years ago there was one and last year there were two, and this year there were three or four, that shows that the manufacturers wouldn't be making these things if there wasn't a market for.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Correct. And that's right.

[Michael Heiss]

Clearly there must be.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, Right. Samsung was also showing this on one of their 115 inches. I don't know whether it was the micro LED or the RGB or whether it was the regular led. That's the next graph.

[Michael Heiss]

I was so wowed by the micro that I didn't pay attention to what they were showing it on.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, here's an example of them getting content from MoMA Museum of Modern Art that you can get and put on your TV when you're not watching a show.

[Michael Heiss]

Yep. And in fact it's interesting, in the early days of large screen sets, the first one was, I think it was the 103 inch Panasonic plasma, if you remember.

[Scott Wilkinson]

103. I remember.

[Michael Heiss]

Well, when Bill Gates built his house, his big house on the lake up in Washington, he had I think about two dozen of them and he used those sets, albeit how many years ago, for 103 inch plasma to show art.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. Exactly right. As you mentioned, TCL also had, has an art based tv. Sony is partnering with Leon Speakers to do a studio frame series. They put a custom frame around Bravia 8 or 9.

[Michael Heiss]

TV and you can do it with any of them. Yeah, the trick with this, you can do it with, you know, you could do it with the, the set I bought at the yard sale last week. But the trick with these, it won't look too good. But the trick with these is that as you said, they package collections of art and a certain amount of it comes with the set. And then what a shock. You can subscribe for more art or as the cdf, say RMR recurring monthly revenue. Because when was the last time you had some software? You know, you can't get Adobe any of the Adobe things as a one time. You got to subscribe. You don't get Windows for free. Not Windows Office 365.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. Microsoft Office.

[Michael Heiss]

Yeah, right. And they're all using that model. So, you know, good for them.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Good for them. They make more money.

[Michael Heiss]

Yep. Next, nobody makes money on TVs.

[Scott Wilkinson]

No, no, no, no. They make money on the subscriptions.

[Michael Heiss]

Exactly. Well, why not to digress, but why stop now? Why did Walmart buy Vizio because they bought an ad channel and a way to deliver it. Of course, nobody makes money on the TVs, but Walmart saw that there was a reason to buy a TV company who, you know, two or three years ago, when we'd be talking about this, who'd have thunk it?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Heiss]

They were clearly not at.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah, Vizio or Walmart.

[Michael Heiss]

Right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay, next category is what you have called, and I think rightly so, DV LED direct view LED, what most people call micro LED. Just to add to the confusion, that is LED screens where the LEDs are microscopic and you're looking at their output directly, not through an LCD panel or anything like that. And there were a number of those because CD tends to cater to the, to a higher end clientele. And these things ain't cheap. There's the Quantum Media systems. They've been there for a few years. Their XDR 4 dash 8K extreme is a micro LED direct view, 20ft wide. This is a, you know, a stock shot that the beauty shot that provided by Quantum that shows it in a, you know, a big residential home theater. Their fourth generation.

[Michael Heiss]

Remember Scott, that one of the advantages of this cost notwithstanding, is that these things are modular.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Michael Heiss]

So that when you say it is an X size screen, it depends on how many module bricks you put together.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Correct.

[Michael Heiss]

And. And that also determines the resolution, which is a whole nother story. So they are. The DV leds appeal to the city of folk because you can fit them to the room size.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, Right.

[Michael Heiss]

And you can fit them through the door.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Then you could fit them through the door, which you couldn't with that Panasonic 103.

[Michael Heiss]

There was one that was put in a building in New York on the billionaires row that they had to haul up with a crane like you would a grand piano.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep, yep, I remember that. But that thing achieves 2,000 nits of peak brightness, which is, you know, that's. You can't get a projection system to do anywhere near that. It's also dci.

[Michael Heiss]

They didn't hesitate to say that. Right. And in fact, where they have now gotten DCI approval for that system and it's getting put into some screening rooms and some, you know, places around here and in the entertainment community. And the only other one like that was the old Samsung Onyx. Now there are actually a few of them in the, in the theaters that Amazon owns down in Culver City, which I've been to. And one of them is ak and it's really good. But it, this one, you Know, year after year, when Quantum has been there, they were clearly the best with the runner up in case Miss America cannot perform her duties to the Sony Sea LEDs. And they showed them there. And interestingly, they showed the C version, not the B version of the Sony is of Sony. I apologize. Yes. The Sony B version is what they use for virtual sets. The C version is. The con is for higher contrast. And it was good, but it just, you know, nothing that I've seen compares to the Quantum.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. There's a couple of graphics about regarding the Quantum number seven that I sent along here. Let's take a look at that one. Which refers to. It's supposed to reflect about the DCI certification, which is Digital Cinema initiative.

[Michael Heiss]

And the interesting thing that they were. What that slide is showing you is, is you can get way more brightness out of this than you can out of a projector.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Michael Heiss]

Regardless of. Of which projector, whether it's a Barco or Christie, you can get way more brightness out of this greater than what the standard allows you to do. And that's what they're showing in that slide. So this is beyond cinema, like Dolby Vision. And they're all talking to each other about how to do this. But again, they're good guys, but. But not shy about saying how good it was.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And you know, okay, so they're blowing their own horn. That's fine. Another DVLED that I found very interesting that you told me about was from a company called AWALL awl, which is a company that also makes the AWOL AWOL UST Ultra Short throw projector. But now they've got a DV LED in sizes all along.

[Michael Heiss]

I actually didn't realize that until I asked them. And this year they did not bring any of the ultra short throws. They. The only ultra short throw was a little Epson in the classrooms that I was teaching in.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah.

[Michael Heiss]

There were no ultra short throws on the floor, but they apparently have been making walls for a while. And again, anything that comes to this market baseline is going to be good. The question is, how much better does it get given brand preference of the client and the budget.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right. Exactly.

[Michael Heiss]

There was one other one that I apologize, I didn't send before.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Before you get there. Before you get there, I have a couple of graphics of the. Of the A wall.

[Michael Heiss]

Sure.

[Scott Wilkinson]

That I wanted to show that you took. That you took the most of these pictures you. You took. So I thank you for that. There's 129 inch, but notice that there.

[Michael Heiss]

Are different pixel pitches at these right.

[Scott Wilkinson]

This is a 0, 0.9 which is fairly common these days. That's the distance between individual pixels or LEDs on the screen. And this one is a 21 by 9 ultra wide. So it's basically for. Why it fills up with widescreen movies.

[Michael Heiss]

Well, but again remember it, remember it's determined the resolution is dependent upon how.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Many bricks, how many tiles you put together. Right, exactly. And we also. You also took a picture of the 163 inch which I believe is probably. Yeah, that's a 16 by 9. Same pixel pitch.

[Michael Heiss]

Because it's the same modules.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Michael Heiss]

In a different configuration.

[Scott Wilkinson]

A different configuration. Now the quote that I got from their press release, which I thought was really interesting was they're claiming that they are going to be a quarter of the cost of their closest competitors. Now of course very few people talk about pricing at the show.

[Michael Heiss]

Not in this market.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Not in this market. Yeah. If you have to ask, you can't afford it. But.

[Michael Heiss]

Exactly.

[Scott Wilkinson]

But they are claiming, you know, that they're going to be 25% of what most other DV LED walls cost. So I'm going to be really interested in this one.

[Michael Heiss]

Yes, I agree.

[Scott Wilkinson]

You said you had another one in mind.

[Michael Heiss]

Yes, it's called C Dash Seed and you may have seen this before.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes.

[Michael Heiss]

It rises up and then it unfolds. Yes, actually three panels and they are advancing that. And, and again that is definitely. And if you have to ask, you can't afford it. Yeah, that's the nature of the custom market in, in the seated market. And I know a lot of the people who do the, you know, start homes of the stars kinds of things there. If you're doing Spielberg's house or Arnold's house or one of those. Excuse me, the quality better be good because those guys know. Last year the keynote speaker is. Your call is Barry Sonnenfeld. You didn't want to put a lousy system in Barry Sonnens Fells house. He'd tell you.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yes, in no uncertain terms.

[Michael Heiss]

Oh, in very. No one sir. He's the guy who stood up before an audience. And again it's worth repeating. I'm sorry. Of you know, more than a couple hundred CD guys. And he said and you know what? HDR sucks.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, I know.

[Michael Heiss]

And you heard. Yeah, but you know, but. But then there's another portion of the market where it's the bigger is better and the design perhaps is more important than the quality, which may not be. If you're a home theater geek, that's one thing. But you know that there are people in the market that are looking for different things and the C seed is not the best quality perhaps, but it feel, but it's really good and it fills the need and that's what the, the CD member community is all about.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. There were also DV LEDs from Barco and Sony. The C LED. Crystal LED. Yep. And again those are, you know, very expensive and in some professional installations and screening rooms and stuff, but they ain't going to be in the average home anytime soon. This a wall. Who knows?

[Michael Heiss]

We should see. I mean Samsung has been promising smaller and lower priced direct view. Not the micro LED that we've been talking about, but full on direct view. Direct view. I guess that's what the, you know, the DV is for.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Michael Heiss]

They've been promising smaller sizes but I think it's quite possible that by the time they're done with the technology in the micro or RGB set, it's not worth having them be any smaller and that way you'll never get the price down. So that's one, you know, I'll let you know after. Cesar.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. Well you're coming back in January to talk about ces, so.

[Michael Heiss]

Yes, I am not my reservations.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Now, CDA used to be a big projector show and it just wasn't as much this time and it seems to have been declining a bit over the years.

[Michael Heiss]

Well, yeah, all of the demos except for one were projectors and they were not only projectors but they were big projectors and especially the one put together by Seymour Screens and Storm Audio and a bunch of Sendo and they had a huge Christie and there were signs and they'd say when they did the intro and before they ran the demo, do not look at the projector or you'll never look at anything again. And they weren't kidding, right? And they were like, you know, laser warning labels. I mean, you know, serious stuff that some insurance company probably made them put up. So the pictures were bright, the pictures were good. But once again the. With one exception, which I unfortunately didn't hear one demo that I know you're going to mention that you still can't poke holes in a direct view screen. And there are people that for imaging stake, they want a projector or you know, there's a cost and quality consideration, they want to be able to raise the screen, you know, so projectors are far from dead.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Oh no, no, I never meant to imply that.

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[Scott Wilkinson]

However, there were several projectors at the show, none of which were new. So Bravia Sony had its Bravia 7 projector, which is.

[Michael Heiss]

Which they. Which was really good, by the way.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, and it's, you know, it's a $10,000 projector and it's quite good. I know. Epson had nothing new. Well, I guess the newest was their.

[Michael Heiss]

LS9 or two small ones. Yeah, that's one or two small ones.

[Scott Wilkinson]

The S, the LS9000 is $4000. So that's relatively low for the CD market.

[Michael Heiss]

They also have the heart of that market. Yeah, because for all the guys doing $300,000, Christie's Embarcos where the average installation for a CDF firm is still in that 7025 to $75,000 range. All in.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Michael Heiss]

A $4,000 projector is the heart of the market. A couple of years ago, it's CDS. Sony's shtick was 4k for 4k.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And all the Epson projectors now are 4k or pseudo 4k because they kind of do some pixel wiggling. Pixel Shift, Pixel shift. Right. JVC had nothing new.

[Michael Heiss]

They had an 8k pixel shift.

[Scott Wilkinson]

They had an 8k pixel shift which is the DLA NZ 900, which is $30,000 or back up into that.

[Michael Heiss]

And it was good.

[Scott Wilkinson]

That's right. The DLA NZ 700 is 4K, that's $10,000. They call it the world's smallest native 4K Dila projector. Well, okay. There are no other Dila projectors except from jvc, so they can claim almost anything.

[Michael Heiss]

Remember, Dila and SXRD are sort of second cousins twice removed.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, they're very similar. They're based on the same technology called lkos liquid crystal on silicon. That's a reflective technology. We don't need to get into that right now. And then there were the higher ends of course that were in most of the demos. Probably the Barco Heimdall plus which was shown on 174 inch screen with Meridian speakers. That was probably a pretty nice demo. And The Christie Eclipse G3 third generation native 4K with RGB lasers. The Barco also has separate red, green and blue lasers. They claim 20 million to one contrast ratio.

[Michael Heiss]

Those are the. Don't look at them.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Those are the. Don't look at them. Right. And of course if you're going to put a projector in a theater, you need a screen. And there were a couple of interesting ones I saw in the press releases and stuff. EVP had the Dark Star UST3 elevate, which is a screen that motorizes up from the floor.

[Michael Heiss]

I did see that Stuart has had. Well, that's the thing about cdfolk. That is something that a lot of them have done before because you can take a steward or a Seymour or you know, a DNP or whomever you are.

[Scott Wilkinson]

An evp.

[Michael Heiss]

Yeah. You can do that by turning it around. And the seedy people, the good ones and most of them are, are able to do that on their own. The advantage of what you just saw is that it's a package. So that means that they're, by putting it together like that, they're broadening the market.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. The other screen announcement that I thought was really interesting was from Screen Innovations and their Chaos K A O S.

[Michael Heiss]

Screen which weren't bad guys and get smart.

[Scott Wilkinson]

They were the bad guys and get smart. Exactly. They have this motorized screen intended for outdoor use in high wind conditions. They say it'll, it'll withstand winds up to 110 miles an hour.

[Michael Heiss]

If it's 110 miles an hour, I'm not being outdoors, watching.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Oh, of course not.

[Michael Heiss]

Well, but you know, but Scott, you know, you know the area, you know, you, you lived here for many years. You know the area where I live. And one of these zoning things now to prevent McMansions, they found a way to do it Is they're using ADUs, like to turn your garage into a living unit.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, right.

[Michael Heiss]

Building these silly houses. And the ADUs and one of the ones in my neighborhood, there was a projector in the overhang of the house and then the pool. That's typically the way they are. And then there was a screen that dropped down from the adu. So that's not as crazy as an application as it sounds.

[Scott Wilkinson]

As it sounds. Okay. All right. There was a number, but not in a hurricane. Not in a hurricane, for God's sake. There was at least one processor there. There were a couple that, that are used typically in high end installations. One is from a company called Lumigen, the other is from a company called MadVR. And they had a fairly new one called the Core Mark 2, which for them is inexpensive. It's six or $7,000.

[Michael Heiss]

I'll take two.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah. Really. The Pro Mark III is $11,000 and the one that most people use is the Envy Extreme mark III for 16 grand. And they all support 48 gigabit per second HDMI, which is the current maximum rate. So I just wanted to.

[Michael Heiss]

They all look good. But it was difficult going from demo to demo to separate the projector from the processor. Was that a MAD VR or was it a Lumigen? And unfortunately there's no way to really compare unless they're side by side.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah. Now you mentioned to me that the 8K association was, was there and making it for 8K. Tell us a little bit about that.

[Michael Heiss]

Well, you know, people are saying 8k, what do you need it for? Why? You know, it's another thing. But there is a group within the gaming industry, the Hollywood studios, if you will, whatever they're calling themselves these days, and the consumer electronics world that are still increasingly pushing 8k. And the reason why they were there and they took a decent size space on the floor was to show that some of the studios are remastering for 8K. Because if it was shot on film, if there's a good negative, if it was, you know, shot and three stripe Technicolor and you've got a good print and you've got a high res scanner, you can make really good video. There's a lot of stuff at AK and I did Ask the AK association folk if there was any news. I mean, coming up in the next couple of years and a lot of it's going to happen here in the US Super Bowl, World Cup, Winter Olympics, Summer Olympics. End of the world watching. Come on honey, we got to go. No, wait, I'm watching it over there and there was no, I'm sorry, there was no, nothing that they could give me yet on whether or not there'll be any 8k out of the, out of the Winter Olympics. But you know, the real question is what are you going to view it on and how is it going to get to you? And 8K report. Let me summarize it by this way. Reports of 8K's death are greatly exaggerated. Paraphrase, I guess Mark Twain.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right.

[Michael Heiss]

And keep a, keep a lookout on 8K. It's, it's, there's going to be a concerted effort and there are applications where it makes a lot of sense. And again especially CD Aware. Price is not always the object. It makes sense.

[Scott Wilkinson]

So you took a couple pictures I want to show of. One of them is, well, they're adopters, people who are actively working on creating 8K products or content.

[Michael Heiss]

There you go.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And here it is.

[Michael Heiss]

Especially mgm, now owned by Amazon. They got a lot of movies. They got all hype. Got a lot of movies. And if you've got IMAX, I'd love to see an 8K of Oppenheimer because that was filmed in IMAX.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yep.

[Michael Heiss]

Much to the dismay of the studio. But you know, you don't argue with Christopher Nolan.

[Scott Wilkinson]

No.

[Michael Heiss]

And Warner Brothers, he got a lot of movies. So look what they've done with. What are they showing at the Sphere now in, oh, wizard of Oz. Wizard of Oz. Okay. There's a three strike technical, they remastered.

[Scott Wilkinson]

That in 16k for the sphere.

[Michael Heiss]

So now the job's already done.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, really. Not only that, but digital movie cameras these days there, there are increasing, increasing numbers of them that'll go to 4k 8k rather.

[Michael Heiss]

Oh, a lot of, some of The Reds are 12K.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Also there was a, another slide I wanted to show real quick of the, of the ecosystem that they put up there. And look at all those companies that, that can handle 8K.

[Michael Heiss]

And, and I, and I have to say that there wasn't some, some guy in the front putting his camera up. That was in the slide.

[Scott Wilkinson]

That was in the slide. Okay, then all we need are 8K displays. And there are, Samsung is one company that's particularly interested in that and Sony I think has jvc, has the projector. So there are companies from which you can buy an 8K display and show that content.

[Michael Heiss]

I'm saving up for the quantum.

[Scott Wilkinson]

There you go. I wouldn't blame you a bit. Just a couple other quick things before we end this episode. Kaleidoscape, which was the source device of choice for all the demos I think, that you saw.

[Michael Heiss]

And all the. All the demos I saw. And all the demos I didn't see because there was nobody else other than a couple of people where, for a variety of reasons, they were playing stuff back from streaming. But Kaleidoscape, that a couple of years ago, I kind of pooh poohed. They own it.

[Scott Wilkinson]

They own it.

[Michael Heiss]

Own it. And I didn't remiss in not pointing out to you that especially since Panasonic wasn't there, there were nary an optical video player on the floor.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Actually, I did read of one from a company called Magnetar.

[Michael Heiss]

I didn't see them there. I saw them in ces.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, no, apparently they were media. You know, you. You were busy.

[Michael Heiss]

Somebody else? No, they may have been in somebody else's.

[Scott Wilkinson]

They might have. They might have.

[Michael Heiss]

But if. If my oppo ever gives up the ghost, I'll have to get a magnet.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, I'm afraid so. Kaleidoscape introduced, or suit, not, not long ago, introduced the Strato E player, which is $3,000, which is their lowest cost player in their lineup. And it's 4K, so probably doesn't have much storage. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that you brought to my attention that I wanted to. To just mention real quickly is from the company, Eero E E R O, they have something called the Signal. And tell us about that.

[Michael Heiss]

Okay, so, not to belabor the point, I get up on Father's Day. It's Father's Day. Why did I get up early?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Why did you get up early?

[Michael Heiss]

I got up because I'm crazy. And I had to check my email problem. No email. Okay. I'm a smart guy. I'm a CD guy. I'm a CD A blah, blah, blah. I'll reset my switch, I'll reset my cable modem, I'll reboot my computer, and then I'll call Spectrum. And as it turns out, there's been a rash of cable thieves in this area. And in fact, in Pasadena and up near where you used to live, there were people stealing fire hydrants and selling them for the base metal. And a bunch of thieves. Probably not too smart. Early in the morning, before Father's Day, Cut what they thought were some telephone trunk lines jokes on them. It was all fiber. So there was no Internet for any Spectrum customer for about 18 hours in most of LA and Ventura County.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Wow.

[Michael Heiss]

So, and I actually wrote an article about this in the current issue of Hidden Wires about always have a plan B. And I hotspotted from my phone. But so what Euro has now and I actually am using Euro as we, as we speak here is a little widget that was in that picture and it's basically a 4G and 5G device. Guess what? The device is 99, but it requires a subscription of course that into the back. You know, Jeff, Jeff Bezos ain't no fool. So you plug that in the back of one of your units and if the, if the Internet goes out, which these days is pretty, you know, hard for a lot of people, you got a backup source. And so that's very, that's a very smart device. But hint, you can hotspot it from your phone, but don't tell them I told you.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay. All right.

[Michael Heiss]

But I'm getting one of those.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Well, it'll be interesting to see do a comparison between your phone and that thing, see which one does better.

[Michael Heiss]

Well, I mean for the same reason there Uma, if anybody's Familiar with Uma VoIP phones, they have a similar kind of device because it's a plan. It really is a plan B. And in this day and age when everybody is so Internet dependent for your phone, for this, you know, thing that we're doing here. If you, if I wanted to find out what was going on, I couldn't turn, I could turn my TV set on but I wouldn't see anything because I can't stream because there's no broadband.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Right, right. Well, man, that's an awful lot of stuff we just covered and it's not even the end. We're going to do a part two here and talk more about audio and some of the mega demos that were there. And that's going to come to you next week. But for now, why don't you tell our audience where they can find you online.

[Michael Heiss]

You can find me online at, in articles I write for Residential Tech Today, www.reztech today.com and Hidden Wires, a very interestingly named publication, been around for many years. It mostly covers the European market, but they have some amazing installation things and some contribute contributions for myself, which is hidden wires co.co hidden wires.co.uk why can't they be a.com like everybody else?

[Scott Wilkinson]

Because they're in the UK. Now, before we go, before we go on, you, you sent me the URL hidden wire. But I think with plural it should be plural. Okay.

[Michael Heiss]

Or you can complain that, you know, I'm losing it here to michael heist.com, your own website.

[Scott Wilkinson]

And I just took a look at it because I didn't realize you had one before. And it's really nicely done.

[Michael Heiss]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Heiss]

Especially the notary public part.

[Scott Wilkinson]

Okay, great. Well, listen, we're gonna go, we're gonna continue this on part two, but for now, thanks a lot for being here. In some episodes, I love to answer questions from listeners. So send yours along to HTGWIT TV and I'll answer as many as I can right here on the show. And as you know, all of TWiT's programs are available on YouTube for free, but with ads. If you want to go ad free, join the club, go to Twit TV Club Twit and join today. Until next time, geek out.

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[Michael Heiss]

Club Twit.

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