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Intelligent Machines 825: The Evil Clown of Middletown
03:06:14
Death By Powerpoint
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- [00:00]
Leo Laporte
It's time for Intelligent Machines. Our guest this week, Richard Gingris, just retired as vice president of news at Google. We'll talk about the future of news, AI slop and more. Plus a show that just never ends. But it's full of goodness, including sinkholes and evil clowns and all sorts of stuff. Cheese. There's cheese. Next. Stay here. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is Twit. This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis. Episode 825, recorded Wednesday, June 25, 2025. The evil clown of Middletown. It's time for Intelligent Machines, the show where we talk about the latest in AI robotics and all those little smart thingamajiggers surrounding us everywhere. There's one behind me. One there, one there, one there. With the wonderful professor of journalistic innovation at the emeritus at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University, AKA Jeff Jarvis. Hello, Jeff.
- [01:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Hello there, boss.
- [01:19]
Leo Laporte
How are you? Now at the fine SUNY Stony Brooklyn and the Montclair State University, author of what Would Google Do Private Parts. I'm going back in time now.
- [01:31]
Jeff Jarvis
You're going back there. Yeah.
- [01:32]
Leo Laporte
The Gutenberg parenthesis. The web we weave. Oh, there they are. Also here, newly wired Paris Martineau, who is sweltering in New York City. Hello.
- [01:46]
Paris Martineau
It's a heat wave. We had multiple mini tornadoes in New York. A 50 foot tree fell in my backyard, taking approximately five backyards.
- [01:55]
Leo Laporte
Was a tree named Andrew Cuomo by any?
- [01:58]
Paris Martineau
No. But that tree also did suffer a a large blow to his ego and self this week. It's been a sweltering week in many ways.
- [02:07]
Leo Laporte
Wow. Well, you've earned a beer and I'm going to give you official dispensation given the. The heat. Anytime the heat rises over 90 degrees.
- [02:16]
Paris Martineau
I took this out of the beer thing being like, yeah, it'll seem not obvious that I'm drinking a beer. And then I held it up there, I was like, no, that's a beer. This is.
- [02:24]
Leo Laporte
I recognize a beer when I was.
- [02:26]
Paris Martineau
Drinking exactly one beer. It's very hot outside. I'm gonna be entirely normal.
- [02:30]
Leo Laporte
I'm completely happy.
- [02:31]
Paris Martineau
Great.
- [02:32]
Leo Laporte
We have a great guest. He's actually been on the show before. Richard Gingris is here. Last time when Richard was on, he was vice president of news at Google. He is no longer in that position. He has moved on. Richard.
- [02:47]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, you just emeritus now.
- [02:48]
Leo Laporte
Emeritus just moved on. Welcome. It's great to have you, Richard.
- [02:55]
Richard Gingris
It's good to be here. In fact, I am consuming a bit of artificial Intelligence.
- [03:01]
Paris Martineau
Is that computronium you have in there?
- [03:04]
Leo Laporte
It looks more like cider than beer.
- [03:06]
Jeff Jarvis
But Richard is a specialist at cocktails.
- [03:10]
Leo Laporte
You should know a good bourbon. Now we're talking. All right, so far so good. Half the panel's drunk and the rest of us are catching. So, Jeff, why don't you introduce Richard and tell us a little bit about him because I know you know him well.
- [03:31]
Jeff Jarvis
So last time Richard and I were on the same flight, the. The flight attendant came up and. And said, oh, you're brothers.
- [03:42]
Leo Laporte
Okay.
- [03:42]
Paris Martineau
I wasn't gonna say it because I thought it sounded offensive just because you're both white men with glasses, white hair and beards, but I've been thinking it the entire time, especially because you guys are right next to each other on my zoom screen and I'm like. It's like looking in a strange mirror.
- [03:57]
Jeff Jarvis
It is, it is. So we are brothers of a different mother and father. Richard has been around the same our industry for a long time. Headed up Salon.
- [04:10]
Leo Laporte
Loved Salon, by the way. Still love Salon. Yeah.
- [04:13]
Jeff Jarvis
On early Internet access service called. Which one was it Richard? Not excited.
- [04:21]
Richard Gingris
Oh, God. I mean Excite before that. E World.
- [04:25]
Leo Laporte
E World.
- [04:27]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [04:27]
Leo Laporte
Apple's very interesting kind of. It's almost skeuomorphic Village. Village based Internet service. I liked E World, actually. That's right.
- [04:38]
Jeff Jarvis
And then for the last.
- [04:39]
Leo Laporte
How many years at Google, you're the e guy.
- [04:44]
Richard Gingris
About 15.
- [04:45]
Jeff Jarvis
So 15 years at Google as vice president of news and has had all kinds of things there and has been a really great friend of journalism and news. Starting the Google News initiative. Starting all kinds of other.
- [05:02]
Leo Laporte
Well, the Trust project. Really?
- [05:04]
Jeff Jarvis
The Trust project outside of Google as well.
- [05:06]
Leo Laporte
Still involved in some of this. Yes.
- [05:08]
Jeff Jarvis
And Google News geist, which is when we journalism wonks get together to complain about the state of the world and try to fix it and all kinds of things. So I'm delighted that Richard's here and now that he's no longer officially an employee of Google, he's unleashed and so we can talk about anything. No comms there. Breathing.
- [05:29]
Paris Martineau
But yeah. When was your last day? Was this a recent departure?
- [05:33]
Richard Gingris
My last day officially was last Friday.
- [05:36]
Paris Martineau
Wow. So you're fresh off the Google boat. How does it feel?
- [05:39]
Richard Gingris
Fresh? It feels absolutely fine. I miss my administration.
- [05:49]
Paris Martineau
That's a very googly response.
- [05:53]
Leo Laporte
In some ways. You're leaving at kind of a critical juncture because news is now faced, I think, with even more existential threats than ever, thanks to AI and AI slop. And yet it's more important. We need news. We need reliable, authoritative news.
- [06:14]
Jeff Jarvis
More authoritarian, you were gonna say?
- [06:16]
Leo Laporte
Well, we have authoritarian. We need more authoritative news than ever. What is your prognosis for the future of news?
- [06:26]
Richard Gingris
I mean, I think we can have a very good future of news, but I think it really requires all of us in the profession to really step back, which the profession has been kind of reluctant to do over the years, and really kind of assess the situation and see what we can do to work ourselves forward. And I think there's a lot we can and should do, whether that's with regard to re earning trust or understanding how best we evolve, what news can be in this different digital environment. Figuring out savvy business models that don't rely on philanthropy, figuring out smart uses of AI. And there are many smart uses of AI. So I have great reasons for optimism, but we have to take those steps forward. By the way, I'm no longer at Google, but I' very actively involved in several endeavors that are very much targeted on exactly what I'm talking about.
- [07:24]
Leo Laporte
Can you tell us about those?
- [07:27]
Richard Gingris
Yes, two. One is an effort which Jeff is aware of about a year and a half, two years ago, I, with a few others put together a global research institute that I think, you know, likes to think of itself as a think tank for the role of journalism in society, the role of the free press and the open Internet in society. And it looks at everything from public policy questions around the world, which are very challenging as governments recognize the impact of the Internet and want to control it, to how do we think through matters of trust in AI and business models. So that's one area. Marty Barron's on the board, Maria Ressa, headed by the executive director is Amy Mitchell, who for two decades headed research at Pew. So great people trying to help people with more additional thinking and research on those questions. And then the second, which I'm very excited about, is in the area of local news, where I've been there too, working hard to figure out how do we rethink what local news can be in a community. And a singular company that I've identified in my work around the world is a company out of Canada called Village Media, which is doing that extraordinarily well, rethinking every component. How do we strengthen the communities, how do we drive their engagement and does so commercially, sustainably, entirely with local advertising. And so I've become chairman of the board of Village Media and we'll work with them to expand that model. And there too great reasons to be hopeful. But it does require stepping back and saying let's kind of take this down to the studs and rebuild it with new thinking appropriate to our time and place.
- [09:13]
Leo Laporte
Is there a trust crisis? Because I think those of us who consume news increasingly, even with the Journal of record, I know Jeff is less than happy with the New York Times. Feel like maybe we can't trust what we're reading, that there's an angle or, you know, we have a wonderful. Speaking of local newspapers, local newspaper in town that was family run for years has now been purchased by a private equity firm. And immediately my reaction is, well, I guess I can't trust it anymore.
- [09:45]
Richard Gingris
Yes, we do have a huge trust issue with news. And not surprisingly, nor is it new, for that matter. Right. I mean, if you kind of look at the history of how things evolved, you know, one of the key, I think, things that we miss in understanding the challenge of our current world is to simply recognize that, you know, with the increased propagation of the ability for people to communicate with each other, to express themselves, you know, the expansion of the marketplace for publishing and information, it becomes more difficult, it becomes more fragmented, becomes more polarized. Didn't start with the Internet. I mean, in truth, as Jeff knows, it started with Gutenberg. But if you look at, you know, electronic communications, look what happened with television and cable in the United States, and you started to see more partisan news outlets. Right. So, you know, why would we even wonder whether there's a trust issue in news? In fact, my core concern about it is often people say, when they hear that, you'll hear journalists say, well, we need to, we need more media literacy to tell people that they can trust journalism. And I go like, but that's absurd. Journalism isn't monolithic. There are great sources, there are bad sources. So how do they identify them and how the sources themselves. How do news institutions again, rethink our approach to re earn that trust? I think there's a tremendous amount of arrogance in journalism. There's a tremendous amount of assumption that we know the answers when the answers aren't necessarily knowable. And frankly, the audiences are smart enough to call us on that. So I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done there and we have to stop pointing fingers at others as solutions to our problems.
- [11:26]
Leo Laporte
In the days of Edward R. Murrow and the Tiffany Network, you know, news was seen as a prestige product and the fact that news lost money was not a cause for concern. CBS made plenty of money in other places. I mean, Jack Benny or whatever it was Milton Berle. But I think more and More. We're in an environment where people like Jeff Bezos are coming in to rescue the Washington Post. It looks like news is not because it's not fundamentally profitable. Warner Brothers is spinning off CNN because they see it as a sinking ship. Same with msnbc. I think the crisis is news is no longer a prestige product and nobody is willing to fund it.
- [12:15]
Paris Martineau
I would push back a little bit on that. I think that the problem isn't that news is fundamentally like unprofitable and no one wants to fund it. I think it's just that mass market advertising, supported media that's target audience is everyone that has a cell phone is a fundamentally flawed concept.
- [12:35]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, we're going to get Henry Blodgett on, I think in future weeks I'll ask him about that. Yeah, well, that's a good question. Is news profitable? Can news be profitable? Should it be profitable?
- [12:46]
Richard Gingris
It certainly can be profitable and people are proving that. I mean, I think one of the dynamics that's wrong. I mean, Village Media, the company I mentioned, is profitable in every one of its markets. Obviously the New York Times is profitable. So it's not by any means impossible for there to be commercially successful sources. I think one of the problems we have in the is given the disruption, you have both the legacy players on one side who have been frankly almost irresponsibly incapable of innovating in this period, and particularly now they're owned by hedge funds. They don't have any particular interest in the news business outside of harvesting the assets. And then on the emerging side, sadly, you have a lot of folks who are trying to do the right noble thing, but they've been led to believe there is no commercial future. They've led to believe that philanthropy will save their bacon, as it were, and allow them to continue to do news that they always did and be successful. And that's incorrect. But again, we have to kind of stop with that notion that it can't be successful and start going deep with quite frankly, rigorous business tactics to say, well, where's the opportunity in the market? What's the. The what's the right business model that'll fit what I'm trying to do?
- [14:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Go back to Leo's question about AI. He asked the challenge of determining authority from slop. So hit both sides of that coin of where the potential risks are with AI, but where the potential uses and benefits are.
- [14:32]
Richard Gingris
You know, I mean, I personally think there's just tremendous opportunity in AI for us as individuals and I think for news organizations. Is there risk? Of course, There is, you know, as there has been with any media environment. I think with AI, you know, it's going to come down to questions like, well, what source of AI knowledge are you going to. Because there'll be many. Because there are many now here too. You know, one interesting dynamic I was going to mention this back to when you're talking about the Tiffany networks. One of the interesting things back in the 50s and 60s and 70s when you didn't have the proliferation of cable outlets, was these news organizations had to recognize that they couldn't just address a certain cohort of the audience. They were addressing everyone because they had huge audiences. They didn't want to piss off one segment of the audience. And so they had a greater inclination to try to be impartial, which frankly helps lead to trust and respect across the spectrum. Right. I think in a similar fashion now, when I look at AI, like, I'm much more inclined to trust the larger entities, including the Googles, because frankly, they've got an audience of billions of people and they need the trust of all those people. They need to do it. Well, you know, what I am concerned about is obviously the model's coming out of nowhere, coming out of dark states that clearly can be misused to do harm and will.
- [16:04]
Jeff Jarvis
Tools for journalists. I mean, when we go back, I'm finishing my land and type book right now. And technology first affected the composing room, and it was seen by the publishers only as a way to cut costs. And that's very familiar for today. They're using it to cut costs. They're using it without innovation. What are some of the most innovative things you've seen news organizations do? What should they be doing? What could they be doing that they're not now or that they are now? Somebody's doing good work with.
- [16:44]
Richard Gingris
Well, first of all, I think we need to be comfortable with the language that we use. And I think any publisher who goes to his newsroom and starts talking about efficiencies is not going to get the desired result. That sounds like cost cutting. When I talk to newsrooms about it, I talk about, are you taking advantage of the superpowers that you can have by leveraging these capabilities? In fact, Gina Chua at Semaphore told me that she once was confronted by her newsroom that was reluctant to use the AI technology that she was bringing into the newsroom. They were concerned about their jobs. And she said to them, she said, look, my number one, two and three priorities is do great journalism and I'll use every tool available to Help me do that. I do not have a priority that's about saving your jobs. You obviously want to save your careers. And if you want to do that, then you need to adapt and adopt the capabilities of this technology so you, too can have the superpowers and be better than you are today.
- [17:45]
Jeff Jarvis
We should have Gina on. Gina does great work at Semaphore. She did a thing where she got a. What do you call it? The people you use on Amazon to do tasks. Mechanical Turk.
- [17:58]
Paris Martineau
Mechanical Turk.
- [17:59]
Jeff Jarvis
So she did a mechanical. Mechanical Turk where she used models to look at reports of police brutality. And because they were at all different forms and all different structures, and there was no structure to the data to figure out. She got the models two years ago to figure out how to look at all these things and get a better count of what was happening around race and police brutality.
- [18:24]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, we need to have a palantir for journalists as opposed to a palantir for government.
- [18:29]
Paris Martineau
I think a palantir for journalists is a phrase I never thought I'd hear. I guess I'm. I'm not opposed.
- [18:35]
Jeff Jarvis
This is a secret exists, but we don't. We're not allowed to know.
- [18:38]
Leo Laporte
This is what Jeff, right. Is. Is the journalist is data scientist.
- [18:44]
Jeff Jarvis
It's a lot of it.
- [18:45]
Richard Gingris
Well into your question. I mean, there is actually no. No facet of the journalistic profession that can't be improved and enhanced by the use of AI. There's none, you know, and some of it is simple things. You know, does it help you do research? Does it help you ask questions that you might otherwise not be comfortable asking? You know, when I write things today, one of the things I do is feed it into one of the models and say, give me positive and negative criticism of this piece. You know, help me understand if I'm phrasing it properly, am I making the argument correctly? But if you take it into the newsroom, I mean, the point about data, for instance, you know, one of the projects at Google that I was most proud of was when we did with a team in Israel that is still working on this stuff. When we built Pinpoint, this was five or six years ago, and we were calling it machine learning. It wasn't doing the generative part, but it was all AI, which was, how do I analyze, you know, 100,000 documents that I otherwise wouldn't even be able to analyze manually to understand what's in those documents, to organize them and structure them based on known entities and dates and locations and so on and so forth? Help me find the needles in the haystack that's even more capable today with gen AI. So it can obviously help you do the investigations that you otherwise would not have even attempted. It can help you monitor beats. It can help you monitor sources of streams of data. To understand, we did a project at Google that was trying to look at could we geofence search queries to detect stories that otherwise we might not understand. And the example for that, because we knew it was true, was the Flint water crisis. If we had looked into search queries, and we did six, eight months before the water crisis, you saw queries that said, my water smells bad, my water tastes bad. Now, you put those signals in front of thoughtful reporters and they go, oh, maybe there's something we should be digging into on the state of the water supply in Flint. Right? That's powerful stuff. And that's just. I mean, these are just two examples out of many with regard to the newsroom. So, you know, I think any newsroom that ignores the capabilities of AI is a newsroom that's ignoring its future.
- [21:04]
Leo Laporte
Of course, there's the flip side of that coin. And if I were in the news business, I might worry about it. Oh, I guess I am, aren't I? I am worried about it, which is they're increasingly individuals are going to be able to create their own personalized news feeds. And this, we're already seeing this with tools that, like perplexity, that I like to use, which is kind of disintermediating the original source work, taking. Taking them out of the equation and giving me the results, I see a future. We talked about this with Nikita Roy of personalized news and of individuals doing that. Doesn't that just put more pressure on journalistic organizations? Take some out of the equation in some cases, except as source materials.
- [21:52]
Paris Martineau
Look, source materials is very important.
- [21:55]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, but it doesn't pay. Right? It's the most expensive part of the whole thing. And if you're not getting the hits.
- [22:03]
Jeff Jarvis
Hits, that's memory lane.
- [22:06]
Richard Gingris
I mean, several things there. I mean, look throughout the history of journalism, even before digital and electronic, you would browse an array of sources and titles. Before you dug in, you'd go to the newsstand and browse for a half hour. Maybe you'd buy one magazine, maybe you'd buy none at all. That's an important and ongoing dynamic. I mean, having personalized news feeds, I think simply helps people get exposed to more stuff. My real issue with the personalized news feeds, and it's inevitable and I can't stop it. Is it giving You a siloed view of the reality and not exposing you to things that you should see. When I was running Google News I wanted to make sure that we didn't just have the personalized for you tab, but we had a, we had a tab which I wanted to be the default which was, you know, here is our sense of what news is across the country right now. Unpersonalized.
- [23:06]
Jeff Jarvis
Talk about the early days of Google News, the reaction to it. The news industry wasn't sure what to do with was a 20% project for somebody else. But what were the design?
- [23:20]
Leo Laporte
They had the same fears, right? This fear of being, you know, removed from the equation of Google intermediating.
- [23:28]
Richard Gingris
Yeah, they did and we can talk about that. But you know, first back to the history of Google News and that was just a bit before my time with Krishna Barak. I mean that came out of the shadows of 9 11. Right. It was literally in that period after 9 11. And Krishna was one who said, you know, I want to understand how people are looking at this story from around the world. Right. How do I do that? And that was really the birth of Google News. How could we take and use algorithms and K means clustering to identify sources of coverage on a given topic from any place in the world and give me an option to consume those perspectives. And that's a powerful thing. Continues to be a powerful thing. I think the challenge with the news industry in this regard has been just largely self defeating because what I've always said was, and it is absolutely true that Google News, Google Search, these are effectively the biggest newsstands on earth. That by the way, publishers don't have to pay to be on. Right. You're putting the content before many more people. You're giving them more options to dig in. And they do dig in. But it is a competitive environment. I think what publishers often don't want to acknowledge about the Internet was that introduced massive competition at every dimension. They no longer controlled their distribution, they no longer controlled the advertising market where they could basically hold up the three local department stores for whatever rates they wanted to ask. And at least as important, consumers had many, many places to go for the information that they used to get from the newspaper. I mean, it's simply what I always say is like, you know, the newspaper in Dallas in 1985 was the Internet of that community.
- [25:23]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [25:24]
Richard Gingris
Now we have an Internet and it's a news node on the Internet and I don't need to go to the Dallas Morning News to find out where the movies are playing or what the Stock quotes are. That's all, you know, we don't do that anymore.
- [25:36]
Leo Laporte
Well, it's clearly a benefit to the consumer of news, especially if you're a smart consumer. How does it benefit the publishers, the creators of the news? Because they're bearing the expense.
- [25:51]
Richard Gingris
It benefits them to the extent that they are a truly willing to dig deep and understand the new marketplace and figure out what products can they build that will fit that market. To me, one of the unfortunate problems of the legacy news industry in the last 30 years of the Internet was somehow not recognizing that their success was going to have to be based on how the new marketplace worked, not their hope that somehow the Internet would twist its head around and respect their products for what they were and make sure they were as successful as they always were. Right. So it's not like we're finding, we're not finding successes in publishing in the new environment we are, but we're finding it from those who are willing to be innovative about finding the place in the market, build products to suit, understand user behaviors enough to present that content to them in the form in which they're willing to accept it.
- [26:56]
Leo Laporte
Give us some examples of people who are doing it right.
- [27:00]
Richard Gingris
Well, I mean, in a certain sense, I'd have to look and say the New York Times is getting it right. We can find reason to criticize any outlet out there, but have they been smart about growing that business? They didn't get it immediately right. They spent 15 years before they did the innovation report and then they got really thoughtful about how they do it. They thoughtful about how they drive subscriptions, thoughtful about how they structure their pricing and offers to get those subscribers on board. You know, Mark Thompson will tell you about very interesting steps along that road that he would not have, you know, predicted. But once they kind of really turned to innovation, they started to figure these things out. The company I mentioned in Canada, at the local level, is stunningly innovative at how he approached being a news outlet. And not only in providing news, but creating opportunities from engagement they've created now and are rolling out in their markets a local community interest network. Basically a very nicely designed Reddit for local. You know, it's not about following people and posting into the bliss, into the. Into the morass. It's about following topics that I'm interested in. I'm a woodworker, you know, I like the local music scene with curated hosts. How do I engage with people in my community, both virtually and in the real world. That's powerful and people like that. But that's innovation that's recognizing that it's not just producing articles and somehow sticking them somewhere and hoping that enough people read them.
- [28:36]
Leo Laporte
Is there room for more than one? I mean, one of the complaints is that, well, there's one New York Times. We used to have daily newspaper in every city. Is there room for more than one move for.
- [28:49]
Richard Gingris
Is there move for more than one newspaper in a city?
- [28:52]
Leo Laporte
Well, not, clearly not. But I mean, is there room for more than one maybe newspaper in the country? It feels like, yeah, you could point to the New York Times, but then for every New York Times, there's a dozen failed local newspapers.
- [29:07]
Richard Gingris
Well, yeah, but you're talking.
- [29:08]
Leo Laporte
Is that they're doing it wrong or is it that there isn't room for them?
- [29:12]
Richard Gingris
No, but you have to. You know, the information marketplace is not a, you know, a singular dimension. It's many dimensions. The national environment is quite distinct from the local environment, which is quite distinct from vertical environments. But if you look at those individually, you know, obviously the New York Times has been very successful as a national vehicle. Are there room for competition for other national vehicles? Should certainly. In fact, we'd probably see more of that if some of them hadn't stumbled of late.
- [29:40]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [29:41]
Richard Gingris
But there's certainly opportunity there and the models there. And the other thing I quibble about is people who say we need to experiment with business models. The business models are known, right. At the national level, it's clearly going to be largely driven by subscription. And they're doing that and they're doing that effectively. What if they hit 10 million? I think they have, or they're very close to it. So that's very possible. You look at the verticals, I can tell you around the world there are very successful verticals in everything from politics to various industry sectors. Politics is a particularly lucrative one. Look at 247 in Brasilia, for instance, or even Village Media's Trillium in Ontario. You know, those are subscription offers. They have high value content and it works quite well. I think at the local level there too, it's very different. And there is where I feel and where Village has proven that advertising can still work. And it can still work because at the community level, merchants want to be able to drive awareness of what they're doing to the people in the market they serve. And by the way, information at that level, at that community level, advertising at that community level is information.
- [30:54]
Leo Laporte
That's been our experience not as a local entity, but as a niche entity. It's very similar. Right. And we are able to succeed and survive. Because of that.
- [31:05]
Richard Gingris
I've been doing some other pro bono work that involved doing a massive study of the news consumption habits in Chicago. Local news consumption habits in Chicago. And there are two key learnings in that. One was that people's information needs are proportionate to physical proximity. Meaning I want to know what's going on in my neighborhood far more than I want to know what's going on in the metropolitan area. Right. In Chicago, for instance, the only topic of broad metropolitan interest is the Bears is sports, because otherwise it's all local.
- [31:40]
Leo Laporte
Interesting.
- [31:41]
Richard Gingris
If you think through that, the metropolitan dailies were the ones that were most vulnerable because none of them were any longer relevant from us as a source of national news, and they weren't local enough to be relevant to the communities within the metropolitan area they served.
- [31:59]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [32:00]
Richard Gingris
And the last interesting thing in that survey was we asked a question at the end. We said, what motivates you to consume local news? And we gave people a bunch of options they could check. Number one was save money. Right. People want to know, where are the deals in the community? Did that new restaurant not that open, Is that something my family can afford? Right. Number two is health and wellness. Number three was, yeah, what's going on in my community? Number four was entertainment. What can I do this weekend? What's going on in the community park? But if you look at it from that level and analyze it from that level, then you can begin to see the opportunities that you otherwise would have ignored. If you're following the meme that somehow there's no profitable future news. Right. I mean, in fact, and I'm sorry to go on here, but you know, the one challenge among the emerging players in the United States is often they were founded by journalists coming out of newsrooms. Very noble. What they want to do is the serious accountability journalism. But they don't understand the business. They think philanthropy will support them forever. And as I joke, they would rather eat worms than go to a local merchant and sell an ad.
- [33:16]
Leo Laporte
That's a good point. I like it.
- [33:18]
Jeff Jarvis
So in your 15 years at Google, I know that it's always been an artificial intelligence machine learning company, but there was a distinguished moment that to the outside world, Google became an AI company. And I always saw a change. What was that like on the inside? When did you see that we're not just a search company, we're not just an ad company, we're going to present ourselves as an AI company?
- [33:48]
Richard Gingris
Well, it was both gradual and sudden from my perspective, anyways, where I sat, it was Gradual along the way because we all knew, because Google is a very open and transparent company internally, at least it flong has been. So you knew what was going on. You knew the work that Jeff Dean was doing with neural networks and machine learning and so on, and you knew this was something significant and big at the product level. Again, we were doing things like pinpoint. We were beginning to apply the technology and we knew that it was big. But I think the big switch was, as you know, was Google being appropriately cautious given its size and position and the reputation it needed to be Protect. Protect was much more cautious about going out with a language model. Right. And chatgpt jumped out there first, you know, even though it wasn't ready for prime time, but nonetheless they did and they obviously captured a fair amount of imagination and that's, that's what obviously triggered the next big shift at Google, which was, okay, they've dropped the flag. Now is the time for us to put every effort we can, every dollar we have, against becoming an AI company, an AI solutions company.
- [35:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Because Google had its model.
- [35:17]
Richard Gingris
Yeah.
- [35:20]
Jeff Jarvis
What was the. Was it shock that OpenAI went out there with something that was rough, or was it a sense of there's a new company and we're already an old one? Or what was their reaction like?
- [35:36]
Richard Gingris
I think it was more the first than the latter. I think it was a bit of surprise. But then again, if you thought through it, you know, I remember, you know, when it happened, you know, we were surprised because we had the models and they were testing the models and they knew that there were flaws. I mean, one of the things with language models is, you know, besides the fact that, as you know, it's not just training the language model, it's developing all the necessary grounding that you need to put in place such that the language model is actually coming up with sound answers based on facts and authoritative content.
- [36:13]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [36:13]
Richard Gingris
A, that takes time and B, there is no replacement for the big lab in testing. You just can't pose enough queries to know where the flaws are. Right. Unfortunately, that only happens when you go out public. So chat to be did that. Now, it was also clear to me that that was obviously a smart move on their part. They could take the risks and more importantly, they knew that we could not take the risks. So kind of a slick move on their part.
- [36:48]
Leo Laporte
It's a fascinating competitive story that has yet to be fully written, but will be, I'm sure, at some point. So I like your thought that national can be supported by subscription, local by advertising. I think that makes a lot of sense. We're a niche product also advertising supported, although we're playing with subscriptions as well. And I mean, you know, the information is proven. Wall Street Journal has proven that subscription, the subscription model for people who get value out of the content is very viable. People are willing to pay for something that's going to make them money especially. So there are some models out there. I just, I feel like AI's is an avalanche that might be difficult to transcend for the few people who are doing it right. Maybe we do still have to get an intelligent consumer news consumer.
- [37:48]
Richard Gingris
Yeah. But at the same time that we're getting AI slop, we're getting increasingly capable AI systems which can both counter that slop with, with quality content and can be used to detect and assess the slop that's out there. You know, I mean, sometimes we miss the point that they can use the AI language model to actually assess the AI language model.
- [38:08]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, I think, I know at the beginning you said we can't expect consumers to become better news consumers, but I think ultimately that's going to be a source of success for people is the ability to find a way to get information, especially information, outside their own filter bubble and use it appropriately. And I think news, there's an opportunity for news there, but it does require kind of a more sophisticated reader. I hope they exist.
- [38:43]
Richard Gingris
And I think, and by the way, I didn't say there was no hope in training consumers to do this. What I said was don't count on it was no, is to, don't think you can overcome the trust problem by teaching people that they should trust us. I mean, when has it ever benefited?
- [39:01]
Leo Laporte
You have to earn it.
- [39:02]
Richard Gingris
Trust me. Yeah, trust me. I actually slip on flip on the other side and say, you bet.
- [39:09]
Leo Laporte
Why are you saying that?
- [39:11]
Richard Gingris
Yeah, so that's my point.
- [39:13]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [39:13]
Richard Gingris
But on the other hand, I mean what I think is to me one of the extraordinary dynamic about language models that I keep coming back to both in my own behavior and others is the extraordinary value of non judgmental learning. You know, is the fact that I can ask it questions that I would be embarrassed to ask others. You know, one of the bits of research I looked at, at Google, we had done a lot of the early work on fact checks and we were assessing like, well, where would, how effective were fact checks in different kind of environments, say a social network versus search. And one of the things that came out of that was on social networks fact checks are not effective because basically you end up challenging the social construct of the user.
- [40:03]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [40:04]
Richard Gingris
You put up a fact check next to a post put up by your uncle and basically telling you your uncle was a fool.
- [40:11]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [40:11]
Richard Gingris
You're going to kind of go into a defensive crouch.
- [40:14]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [40:14]
Richard Gingris
But with search, Search is a very private experience where you will go to search and ask it a question that you would not ask your spouse. And that's absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's true of language models in spades.
- [40:28]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, Right.
- [40:30]
Richard Gingris
And I think that's true of all of us. I mean, I learn more faster today with language models than I ever did before, because I can do that and I can keep probing and it's easy to keep probing and easy to learn more. And, you know, does that not have a powerful effect on our younger generations as they come forward? If we give them any kind of reasonable guidance and make sure that they're actually going to answer engines that, you know, are more likely to be authoritative, then what a wonderful thing, because they not only get the knowledge, you stimulate them to want more of it.
- [41:06]
Jeff Jarvis
Paris, you were.
- [41:07]
Paris Martineau
I was going to say, I'm curious what your, like, daily AI. Are there any AI tools that you find yourself going back to or any that are kind of in your weekly routine?
- [41:20]
Richard Gingris
Oh, yeah, all the time. I mean, constantly. Which ones and for very many products do you like? I'm primarily using the main. The major ones. I. I use Gemini primarily. I use Chat GPT sometimes. I use it often just for comparison purposes. I'll do. I'll do Claude, I'll do Chat gbt. I'll do Gemini, just to see if they're particularly different in the answers they give.
- [41:46]
Paris Martineau
But these days, are you typically asking on anything?
- [41:50]
Leo Laporte
Those are private, Paris.
- [41:51]
Paris Martineau
Okay. I'm not asking you to like, any very specific things. I'm just curious.
- [41:57]
Richard Gingris
I'll give you a couple of various ones. I mean, and again, some of these are completely mundane. You know, I was reading a book. I'm reading a book called Plato and the Tyrant, you know, about the philosophers and Dionysus and the whole, you know, that area, which sounds terribly intellectual, but it's actually quite interesting and fun and, you know, and I just wanted to understand, like, how were they writing these things? They had wax tablets. Somebody like, what, you know, what scrolls existed? What were they on? And, you know, I could go and say, like, well, what were the scrolls in Syracuse that Dionysus was reading from? What were they made of? And I came back and told me papyrus, right. It would have taken me a long time to search for that. That's a simple thing. Two that I found really fun lately. Not fun, but really satisfying. One is my youngest daughter just bought a house in Astoria, Queens and it has a rental unit that they can put out. And I said to Gemini, I said, prepare a manual for me for a first time New York landlord.
- [43:01]
Leo Laporte
Oh wow.
- [43:02]
Richard Gingris
He came back with a wonderful six page comprehensive document saying here are all the things you need to know and look into. Right. How powerful is that? Secondly, recently I was in Norway, had to speak at an event in Norway and I decided I wanted to spend an extra three days renting a car, driving around with drones because I do a lot of drone stuff, video stuff. And so I went to Gemini, was a late decision. I said I'm going to land in Oslo, I have three days. I want to stop in Bergen, I want to end up in lhammer. Please give me options for scenic drives. Give me two other places where I should spend the night. And by the way, I'm taking my drones. And it came back with just an extraordinarily helpful detail plan for me. I did the whole trip plan in about 90 minutes, including booking the hotels.
- [43:54]
Leo Laporte
But you understand that that information probably came from a variety of guides like Fotors and that those people who generated the information originally are. No. Are. Have been disenfranchised.
- [44:07]
Richard Gingris
Well, yes and no. It is obviously learning from the, you know, from the collective knowledge that's been expressed out there.
- [44:15]
Jeff Jarvis
We went through that when we put up kind of Nast Traveler online in 1997, where we were trying to cannibalize ourselves because others were going to.
- [44:33]
Richard Gingris
Yeah, I mean, look, there are all kinds of interesting topics out of just that. Right?
- [44:38]
Leo Laporte
No. And as a consumer of information, this is a paradise. Right? And this is in fact Google's mission to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful. There is no better way to do it than these, these, you know, chat bots. It's been amazing. I just worry about the people who create the information and, and, and, you know, what do they do. And I guess that's what we've been talking about is. Yeah, as a consumer of information, I'm in, I'm in heaven.
- [45:09]
Jeff Jarvis
But now you get to hear from the restaurant consumers.
- [45:12]
Leo Laporte
Consider where that information came from so that we don't run out.
- [45:16]
Jeff Jarvis
Sorry, I didn't mean to you. But you also can now hear from 20 people who live in Lillehammer.
- [45:21]
Leo Laporte
True.
- [45:22]
Jeff Jarvis
As opposed to the person who goes through for two days.
- [45:24]
Leo Laporte
It's not corporatized. It could very well be from Real people.
- [45:28]
Richard Gingris
Yeah, that's right. I mean in a lot of this stuff as it's collecting knowledge, it's not like yeah, it's only going to fodors at all.
- [45:34]
Leo Laporte
But that just means it's the cult of the amateur now, right? That it's that the right. No, because no professionals will do it anymore because there's no money in it.
- [45:44]
Richard Gingris
Well, I don't know if that's true. I think it depends and I think also in some of those areas they obviously are putting in references to where this came from. You can click and go deeper and go to Rick Steves and so on and so forth. Are we going to winnowing of the publishing environment in certain areas? Certainly. But I'd also have to point out that the web has become a classic tragedy of the commons.
- [46:08]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [46:10]
Richard Gingris
My favorite example today is recipe queries.
- [46:15]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [46:16]
Richard Gingris
You do a recipe query. I just want to find out, give me the recipe for cornbread. And I got a bunch of recipe sites that insist on giving me the history of the knife and the, the fork in corn and how the corn was brown and you know the office.
- [46:31]
Paris Martineau
Personal relationship with corn.
- [46:33]
Richard Gingris
Precisely. You know, in the list of the ingredients is like a mile down after.
- [46:38]
Leo Laporte
Well that's because the recipe has become commoditized.
- [46:41]
Paris Martineau
I will say fault in the sense that those places are optimizing for Google to.
- [46:48]
Leo Laporte
Exactly.
- [46:48]
Paris Martineau
Higher in the Google search results. But I suppose now they'll be optimizing to be included in an AI search.
- [46:55]
Richard Gingris
Well, you're right in you're wrong. I mean you say it's Google's fault. What they're playing off of was their recognition that Google in assessing the quality of a site values time on site. And that's why they're doing that. Right. It gives them time on site and by the way gives them a whole lot more real estate to show Ads or ads.
- [47:17]
Leo Laporte
Yep.
- [47:17]
Richard Gingris
All right. Now of course Google isn't stupid either, right. Because we'll come up with other more detailed metrics that kind of give us a sense of abandonment. And in the recipe category you'd probably get to know the math that says ah, all of these people are going to suffer a mile long scroll and as soon as they get a half mile down we're going to recognize that's not really good time on site at all.
- [47:41]
Leo Laporte
Right? No. And that's why I use a recipe tool to extract the recipe so I don't have to read the prose and I no longer see any of it. Final question. Because we gotta.
- [47:55]
Richard Gingris
On recipes, if I might. Where might we be two years from now? You know, yes, I'll get the. I'll get the pound cake recipe right at the top. You'll see a winnowing. So there are far less of these, you know, nonsense sites just looking to scam off the, off the Internet. But if I do want, you know, other variations on the pound cake recipe, those results will be there and hopefully they'll be the remaining sites that actually have built loyal audiences.
- [48:23]
Leo Laporte
Well, in fact, for my sourdough recipes, I found a site that I've really found to trust and they have a subscription and I've subscribed to it. So it is. You're absolutely right. There is, there is an option you're.
- [48:35]
Paris Martineau
Subscribing to a sourdough recipe site, the Perfect Loaf.
- [48:41]
Leo Laporte
It's very good.
- [48:42]
Paris Martineau
So it has other bread, many other recipes other than sourdough, but they're mostly.
- [48:46]
Jeff Jarvis
Sourdough where you found your bagel recipe.
- [48:49]
Leo Laporte
Yes, as a matter of fact. And so it was worth it. So one of the things that is come up, and of course you've got New York Times suing OpenAI. You've got Disney now serving mid Journey is, and we've talked about this, is it seems likely that their real end game in all of this is to get licensing fees. How do you. Where do you stand on the idea of AI licensing news and information?
- [49:12]
Richard Gingris
Well, so first of all, you know, I thought the results of the anthropic suit which came out yesterday were quite smart and what I had hoped would occur.
- [49:23]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, the judge, the judge basically said it's okay. It's reading books. That's you have.
- [49:28]
Jeff Jarvis
As long as you acquire them properly, then it's fair use.
- [49:31]
Leo Laporte
It wasn't legal to store them, but it was, it was legal.
- [49:34]
Jeff Jarvis
It wasn't legal to take them when they weren't bought.
- [49:37]
Leo Laporte
Pirated. Right.
- [49:38]
Richard Gingris
Yeah. It wasn't about storage, it was the fact that they were pirated.
- [49:41]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [49:42]
Richard Gingris
But obviously confirm that, that we have a right to learn and the computers we use have a right to learn.
- [49:48]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [49:49]
Richard Gingris
You know, when it comes to copyright, I'm very much in the camp of Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was the creator of his day. Right. Wrote the Declaration of Independence, was a.
- [50:01]
Leo Laporte
Great inventor, wrote a Bible without so much God in it. Yes, right.
- [50:07]
Richard Gingris
And he believed that. He said that patents and copyright was an insult to an advanced civilization.
- [50:13]
Leo Laporte
Oh, wow.
- [50:15]
Richard Gingris
That he understood within a practical degree it made sense to reward the creator, but ultimately you needed to reward the society with the knowledge. So, you know, he would roll over in his grave. When you look at copyright and patent today.
- [50:31]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [50:31]
Richard Gingris
And see that on the one hand drugs get seven years and authors get life of the author plus 70.
- [50:37]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [50:38]
Richard Gingris
Nothing's going into the public domain. So you know, wisely I hope we won't see copyright change such that we can continue to learn. We can glean the facts for the benefit of everyone. I think the other thing we need to recognize is that all creativity is derivative.
- [50:59]
Leo Laporte
That's right.
- [51:00]
Richard Gingris
We learn from people before us. So I find it kind of amusing when you hear of a well known, hugely popular millionaire novelist complaining about LLMs learning from his work. And I want to go, wait a second, are you writing checks on a regular basis to the Tolstoy family Foundation? What about your high school English teacher? Right. You didn't come born into this world as a successful novelist. It's derivative. You know, there are what, nine classic story types that all of you work off of all the time. What means that somehow you get to own one.
- [51:38]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [51:38]
Richard Gingris
So you know, we need to be smart about copyright. Will there be licensing? To your point, there will be licensing for grounding, but I think it's going to be depend very much on the type of content you're talking about. And does it have, you know, is it, is it, does it have particular value because it's not easily found? Does it have particular value because it can be applied to something that will generate further value? So to your point about travel queries as an example, Google understands the value of a travel query quite well and a travel query is worth a whole lot more than a news query. So in coming up with advanced solutions of using AI to satisfy people's travel needs, I can assure you that if there's a need for proprietary content or content from Fedor's or content from those who do mass aggregation of hotel availabilities and so on, that will get licensed because it makes sense to do so. But in other areas, it will make much less sense to do so in areas of news. When I look at it from Google's perspective, where we're always being challenged for bias or presumingly having an editorial perspective is, you know, it was always in our best defense to have to present a diverse array of sources and let the user decide. So I think with LLMs we would be unwise to give fulsome detailed answers without noting the various perspectives that are coming from others.
- [53:18]
Leo Laporte
It reassures people too. It adds to trust.
- [53:20]
Richard Gingris
Yeah, yeah, precisely. You know, I mean, I always believe that, you know, to me journalism is Giving people the information they need to be informed citizens. I always felt that our role at Google was to give people the tools and point them to the sources of information such that they could be informed citizens and do that in a, you know, an assiduously apolitical fashion, which is the way it has to be done. So, you know, I think frankly, a lot of the focus on AI in those regards has to be like, how do we, how do we hone impartial language? I mean, I think news organizations should be thinking about that as well. But I don't want to divert from the licensing point. My last point on the licensing is when I talk to publishers, particularly news publishers as you go, say, yeah, there may be licensing, but if you think there's a golden pot of cash at the end of the LLM rainbow, then you're wrong, really. Because first of all, the news content doesn't have much commercial value. We're in an extremely competitive environment with multiple answer engines. And I can assure you the margins, margins are not going to be found in the category of news.
- [54:27]
Leo Laporte
Interesting, interesting. Richard, it's been such a pleasure. We've overstayed our welcome, but I thank you for giving us some extra time. Richard Gingris, you're not retired. Shouldn't use the word retired. Ameritas Emeritas, Vice president of news at Google. Very good. I'd love to have you back soon. I really appreciate your thoughts and I think the balance is fantastic because I think on the one hand, we all as users of news have a lot to gain, but we don't want to put news out of business either, because that's important too. So there's got to be some balanced way of doing.
- [55:04]
Richard Gingris
No, I very much appreciate that. And as it, I'm not done because obviously we've got some significant challenges in front of us, but I do see solutions. I do see constructive paths.
- [55:14]
Leo Laporte
Good.
- [55:15]
Richard Gingris
And I'm eager and willing to work with anyone, frankly, who, who recognizes that. But we just have to stop pointing fingers and say, you know, everything would be like, oh, if social networks didn't exist, we wouldn't have the social, the political problems we have today. That's a misreading of our world and of the nature of media and of.
- [55:36]
Leo Laporte
The nature of human beings. I agree 100%. Thank you, Richard.
- [55:40]
Jeff Jarvis
Thank you, Richard.
- [55:41]
Leo Laporte
Really appreciate your time. Great to see you again. Thank you.
- [55:44]
Benito
You.
- [55:44]
Leo Laporte
When we come back, more intelligent machine news. This portion of intelligent machines brought to you by StoryBlock. Now, this is intelligent if you've ever. And I know Paris has, and I know Jeff has ever worked with those clunky enterprise grade content management systems that, that just are so painful, slow. And you can't make any, any changes to the layout without developer support, even for the smallest updates. And if you're trying to move fast, that's a nightmare. Whether you're in marketing content creation of any kind. Well, storyblock is the future. It changes all of that. Unlike those monolithic content management systems, StoryBlock, this is really clever. We did this with our site too. It's headless, okay? It completely decouples your back end from your front end. Developers can build in any framework. That's the front end. React, Astro vue, whatever you want. Light, nimble marketers get to use this incredible intuitive visual editor to create and update content. You'd have to file dev tickets. And by the way, because this is such a robust backend, StoryBlock scales whether you're a freelancer or part of a global enterprise. You're gonna get the benefits of a global CDN with AWS data centers in the us, in Europe and Asia. It is literally built for performance at scale. It is so enterprise ready, they've got all the features enterprises want. Role based access control, of course, Enterprise SLAs, you get top tier security. That's becoming more important nowadays. It's all the things the Fortune 500s demand. One global e commerce giant switched to StoryBlock and cut content update cycles from weeks to hours. Another major brand empowered marketing to launch campaigns independently, freeing up the devs for bigger projects. See, StoryBlock has an API first approach, so your content loads fast anywhere in the world. You can have better ux, higher engagement, improved SEO and that real time visual editor. So sweet marketers will see exactly what their content's going to look like before publishing. No more endless back and forth over minor tweaks. And that's a win all around. Developers get fewer interruptions, marketers get more autonomy. They get more of what they want. It's a win if you're an agency. Oh man. StoryBlock offers multi client workspaces with flexible permissions and seamless collaboration tools so you can manage multiple projects without disrupting development workflows. So I think what you can see, whether you're a startup, an enterprise or an agency, juggling multiple clients. StoryBlock gives you the power and flexibility you need. I want you to try today. Storyblock.com Twitter TwitTV25 and use the code TWIT25. TWIT listeners get 20% off for three months on growth and growth plus plans. That's Storyblock.com TwitTV-25 the offer code TWIT25. With 20 off for the first three months on growth and growth plus Plans. S--O-R-Y-B-L-O-K.com Twitt TV-25 and again, the offer code TWIT25. Thank you, Storyblock, for supporting the show. It's funny, we were talking on Sunday, Jason Calacanis was on Twitter and he's an investor.
- [59:11]
Paris Martineau
You allowed that. How many places did you throw? Did you break one or two computer screens?
- [59:17]
Leo Laporte
No, it was, you know what?
- [59:18]
Paris Martineau
So three.
- [59:19]
Leo Laporte
He's got a bad rap. He's a nice guy. I've always liked Jason. I think he's a nice guy. Anyway, he's an investor in this. Created by Humans. It's an AI rights licensing platform for books sponsored by the Authors Guild. But I think it's interesting.
- [59:41]
Paris Martineau
Created by humans. I thought you were describing it as created by humans.
- [59:45]
Leo Laporte
No, it's. It's literally created by humans AI.
- [59:49]
Paris Martineau
Okay, yeah, that.
- [59:50]
Leo Laporte
But what he. But he did say something interesting and it was funny because this was before the Anthropic decision came out. He said, no, the courts are gonna absolutely uphold the copyright of these publishers. And in fact, I was. I said, because we've had Kathy Gelis on so many times, I've said, you know, remember that right to read the First Amendment? And in fact, that's what happened. A judge has backed him this constantly. Yeah, well, you said something also interesting, which is there isn't a gold mine in these AIs. So these dreams of a gold mine.
- [60:21]
Jeff Jarvis
In life, there is for big publishers who get bought out, so they don't litigate or legislate. But that doesn't do anything to actually buy content. It doesn't do anything for the rest of the ecosystem. I mean, in Anthropic, they bought literally millions of dollars of books.
- [60:38]
Leo Laporte
So this is what happened. They bought. Bought books and scanned them. There was a lawsuit brought against.
- [60:44]
Jeff Jarvis
They'd only just done that by three.
- [60:47]
Leo Laporte
Authors, including Andrea Bartz, who accused it of stealing her work to train Claude. Judge William Alsop, a name you will recognize. These guys. It's funny, is it like there are five judges in the whole country. They all seem to get. I don't know.
- [61:03]
Paris Martineau
There's got a very busy schedule.
- [61:06]
Leo Laporte
And this is important Anthropics use. He defended that this was fair use. Anthropic's use of the author's boots books was not just transformative, which is one of the tests for fair use. Exceedingly transformative. They don't copy the text, they tokenize it and save a version that's not even human readable.
- [61:27]
Jeff Jarvis
The important point I think he made was yes, in a sense, you could say it, memorized it, but in tokenizing it, there's software between that repository and the queries.
- [61:35]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [61:36]
Jeff Jarvis
It's not a, it's not a direct recall.
- [61:42]
Leo Laporte
They, they were facing a potentially up to $150,000 per copyrighted book. Now, this is where they did get in trouble. They also hold 7 million pirated books in a central library. Judge also brought. Like any reader aspiring to be. I love this. This is exactly what Richard was saying. Like any reader aspiring to be a writer, anthropics LLMs trained upon works not to race ahead and replicate or supplant them, but to turn a hard corner and create something different. Now, one of the arguments Benito raises and a lot of people raise is, yeah, but there, these are. Prof. This isn't an individual reading a book. This is a profit making company. Reading a book also goes on to say if this training, creating a profit.
- [62:30]
Benito
Out of that, out of that day.
- [62:32]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, also.
- [62:32]
Benito
So that's the thing.
- [62:33]
Leo Laporte
Right. Well, well, if I'm.
- [62:36]
Jeff Jarvis
So that's what we're doing right now.
- [62:37]
Leo Laporte
So did Andrea Barnes.
- [62:38]
Benito
I'm not a company, I'm a book.
- [62:40]
Leo Laporte
She decided to write a novel.
- [62:42]
Paris Martineau
People have person rights than company.
- [62:44]
Jeff Jarvis
But, but the part of what the judge says though is that it's not as if you can say, well, you can use it just like a book. But you. Oh, no, you can't.
- [62:51]
Leo Laporte
Can't.
- [62:52]
Jeff Jarvis
You must use.
- [62:52]
Paris Martineau
There is no second U because that second U is an it.
- [62:58]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, that was profound, Paris. That was. Can I make a T shirt out of that? Yeah, there is no second U because.
- [63:05]
Paris Martineau
That second U is it. People read that T shirt and their eyes will just roll back in their head and get stuck there.
- [63:14]
Leo Laporte
Well, of course, this is just one. Can't explain it, I just wear one. Lawsuit. But it did go in the direction that Kathy Gellis talked about. It did go. You know, they said you can't, you gotta buy the books, you can't pirate them.
- [63:27]
Jeff Jarvis
Which I've talked about too. There's three points here. One is that training the systems, if that's what it does, is in my view, fair use and transformative. That's a different issue from how you acquire the content. And if you acquire it wrongly, you're gonna be in trouble. And then the third issue, which this case does not deal with explicitly, is that if you quote it at length, if you seem to plagiarize it in some way, that's a different issue as well.
- [63:53]
Leo Laporte
Well, the judge was very clear that that's not what happened here, that they, they were not copying the books in with the intent of supplanting the books or of quoting the books.
- [64:02]
Jeff Jarvis
What's interesting is that, is that in terms of the books they bought, they bought millions of dollars. I don't know how many bookstore. Well, when you buy a book, I can do what I want with it. That's why I can sell it to a used bookstore.
- [64:15]
Leo Laporte
Right, right, right.
- [64:15]
Jeff Jarvis
I can. So, so they bought millions of dollars. Then this kind of hurt my soul. They tore them all up.
- [64:23]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [64:26]
Jeff Jarvis
And then destroyed all those. The problem that. But, but, but that was. That's all fair use. That's all fine. The problem comes in with the books three and the others. And they acquired them and it appears they kind of knew that was wrong. That's why they bought the books. But they didn't get rid of the books three and stuff. They left it in their corporate library and other engineers could read them. So it only extended the sin. And so there'll be a next phase of this that will determine the penalties here. But to some extent, he said it could be mitigated by the fact that on the individual books. No, that they bought it later. It doesn't make any difference. They still stole it one time, but still their intent seems to have been better. And they tried these other things. The end of the. There's a good summary at the very end of the. Of the paper itself. I put it up or I said. I said. You actually sent you email of it annotated.
- [65:23]
Leo Laporte
Oh, well, let me pull up my email.
- [65:25]
Paris Martineau
Am I included on this email? I didn't get one.
- [65:28]
Jeff Jarvis
Yes, I did.
- [65:29]
Paris Martineau
Are you sure you used my correct email?
- [65:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, you know what? I probably just put in whatever it said when it said Paris.
- [65:35]
Paris Martineau
I was gonna say say, because I wasn't on the other annotated one. And I love nothing more than a Jeff annotated.
- [65:39]
Leo Laporte
It's not really annotated.
- [65:40]
Jeff Jarvis
It's just marked up.
- [65:42]
Paris Martineau
I, I just like seeing your little scratchy handwriting.
- [65:45]
Leo Laporte
She likes Professor Jarvis's markup.
- [65:48]
Paris Martineau
I do. I really. That is something I miss about being in school is a professor's weird analogy.
- [65:54]
Leo Laporte
It is a shame that they destroyed those books. That's what Google did, by the way, in its book scanning effort. They did. They had to to scan.
- [66:00]
Jeff Jarvis
And, and, and he makes a. A big point about Google that they were very careful. Careful to make sure that you wouldn't use it past these points.
- [66:06]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [66:06]
Jeff Jarvis
And he referred to all these cases. If you go to the very end of it, Leo, I. Mark red.
- [66:09]
Leo Laporte
Wow, that's a lot of pages. Holy cow. There we go. Is it. Are these your chicken?
- [66:15]
Jeff Jarvis
There we go.
- [66:15]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, yeah.
- [66:17]
Jeff Jarvis
Those four. The four red things. Summarize it all if you go up a little bit.
- [66:20]
Leo Laporte
All right, all four of them. Here we go. One. The copies.
- [66:24]
Jeff Jarvis
Go ahead.
- [66:25]
Leo Laporte
Were fair use. The technology at issue was among the most transformative ways many of us will see in our lifetime.
- [66:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Stay there for a second. Stay there for a second. I think that's a misuse of transformative in the context. Transformative means whether you're transforming the work. He's talking about the technology being transformative, which is true. It's transformative in our lives, but that's not relevant to the issues at hand.
- [66:47]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, but can you think of a way that's even. I mean, it's as if you encrypted the books. You know, it's turning it into something not human readable.
- [66:56]
Jeff Jarvis
Yes.
- [66:57]
Leo Laporte
So I think he may meet. I mean, we can debate what he meant, but I think we. He might be making a little pun. It's both. Yeah, it was absolutely turned into a non human readable form, which was very transformative. It wasn't a painting of the book.
- [67:10]
Jeff Jarvis
And it was highly transformative. Yes, but it's also transformative.
- [67:12]
Leo Laporte
It might be a transformative technology. So maybe the judge.
- [67:15]
Jeff Jarvis
Maybe he's. Maybe he's got a little humor there.
- [67:17]
Leo Laporte
Maybe he's got a little humor. Copies. Used to convert the copies. Used to convert purchased print library copies into digital library copies were justified too, though, for a different fair use. Huh.
- [67:30]
Jeff Jarvis
This is where you go through the four factors of fair use, which is probably too much for our heads to explode right now.
- [67:34]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, there's a lot of. There's four tests for fair use. One is transformative, one is you don't make a profit. I can't remember what the other ones are on balance as the purchase print copy was destroyed and its digital replacement was not redistributed. This was fair use, by the way. That is a very important determination. This is fair use. That's.
- [67:57]
Jeff Jarvis
This is huge. This is absolutely huge. Yeah, and. And I think it has interesting. Well, why don't you go through the other two and let's talk.
- [68:05]
Leo Laporte
He then says, download the pirated copies used to build a Central Library not fair use. And they are going to. The trial will continue on that. Those grounds. They will go to trial on that. As for any copies made from Central Library copies but not used for training this order and does not grant summary judgment for anthropic. So he's not throwing the case out. The case will continue on that. On that ground.
- [68:30]
Jeff Jarvis
If you go below, I think there's one.
- [68:31]
Leo Laporte
But they did, they did grant summary judgment for Anthropic saying the training was fair use. The print to digital format change fair use for a different reason. It's just the pirate.
- [68:43]
Jeff Jarvis
Keep going that anthropic later scroll, if you would.
- [68:47]
Leo Laporte
Philanthropic later bought a copy of the book it earlier stole off the Internet will not absolve it of liability for theft, but it may affect the extent of statutory damages that will be determined in the. In the trial. The later trial.
- [69:00]
Jeff Jarvis
So what's interesting here is. There's lots interesting here. But what I wonder to go to.
- [69:06]
Leo Laporte
Wait a minute. Did he use an auto pen to sign this?
- [69:09]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, that signature is bad.
- [69:11]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, that signature is just. That's just a joke.
- [69:14]
Jeff Jarvis
That's human. Yeah, that's a.
- [69:15]
Leo Laporte
That's just a timely joke. I think that's huge. That's. And I don't know if that's the first judgment.
- [69:23]
Jeff Jarvis
There have been others, but they've been more limited in their scope. So I think this is a huge case. What's interesting to go to Benito's argument is whether or not you can restrict who uses it in what way. Like if I put something like, here's my question. Is robots Txt a enforceable legal obligation on the reader? Or can I just say, no, screw your robots text. I'm going to read it what I want. I'm going to do with it what I want.
- [69:52]
Leo Laporte
That's going to be up to the judge. I would say a judge would probably, you know, apply common sense to this and say, no, that the rights holder has explicitly said, I don't want you to read this and that should be sufficient.
- [70:04]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, but I, you know, I don't.
- [70:06]
Paris Martineau
Know though, why, why do you think.
- [70:09]
Jeff Jarvis
That I don't want black people to read this book? You know that.
- [70:13]
Benito
My question is, how come it's not a commercial idea license they need? How come they can just have the license that I can get that I get to read a book?
- [70:19]
Leo Laporte
Fair use doesn't have anything to do with commercial.
- [70:21]
Jeff Jarvis
It has nothing to do with that. That's my point. It's not limited by who you are reading.
- [70:26]
Leo Laporte
It's reading Is a right carve out that says, well, fair use for humans.
- [70:29]
Benito
Okay, From a legal perspective, I have no ground to stand on. But don't you guys agree that it feels weird? Don't you guys agree it does feel weird? It feels weird and messed up? No, it's not.
- [70:40]
Jeff Jarvis
I agree because. Because, Benito, what are we doing here every week? We are.
- [70:45]
Benito
I'm not a computer, Jeff. I am not a computer, Jeff.
- [70:48]
Leo Laporte
No, but I. For commercial purposes, making sure.
- [70:51]
Paris Martineau
Isn't being sold for thousands of dollars a month to hundreds of thousands.
- [70:56]
Leo Laporte
So is the, is the determinant how much. How much the company makes? Is that.
- [71:00]
Paris Martineau
The determinant is that it is directly being ingested and output as a commercial product.
- [71:07]
Leo Laporte
But my point is that's what, that's what we're doing right now. I just suggested a BBC article about this lawsuit.
- [71:14]
Paris Martineau
But you're a person. People have rights.
- [71:17]
Leo Laporte
I'm a comma. I'm a commercial entity.
- [71:19]
Richard Gingris
You're a company. You're not company.
- [71:21]
Paris Martineau
You're not acting right now as a company. You're acting as a person. No, I would also argue you're not a company. You're a person who owns a company.
- [71:30]
Leo Laporte
And we use you.
- [71:33]
Jeff Jarvis
How big is the company?
- [71:34]
Paris Martineau
Are not a company. You're a person.
- [71:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Okay, so the person who does it inside open AI Wait a minute. Person who does it.
- [71:41]
Richard Gingris
It.
- [71:41]
Leo Laporte
But wait a minute. I did use this computer to read that BBC article. Is, is that now a problem? Because the computer actually read the BBC article, not me.
- [71:50]
Paris Martineau
I'm just going back to the second U, isn't it? Case closed. Let's go back to that.
- [71:58]
Leo Laporte
Say it again. The second you is an id.
- [72:00]
Paris Martineau
The second U isn't a U, it's an it. I think is what I said. I don't know. It's left my brain, like.
- [72:07]
Jeff Jarvis
I challenge you to illustrate that one. I want, I want the T shirt.
- [72:10]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, Chat room. Try to figure that out.
- [72:12]
Leo Laporte
Get Mid Journey on that right away. Okay. And no Darth Vader in there. All right, I know. I mean, I, I, I understand what you're saying, Bonito. And if I created Darth Vader, by the way, a big commercial entity that created Darth Vader and then Mid Journey came along and ingested a bunch of pictures of Darth Vader and now allowed somebody to generate AI versions of Darth Vader, I might feel like, well, golly, that they're kind of ripping me off. They didn't license it.
- [72:40]
Jeff Jarvis
We have Dark Leo on the chat, but can we.
- [72:45]
Benito
Yeah, like plagiarism. But it's plagiarism adjacent. You know what I mean?
- [72:49]
Jeff Jarvis
No. Nope. Disagree.
- [72:50]
Paris Martineau
Can we take a brief sojourn to the corner? I'm now calling Paris's use of Chat GPT Pro this week as I'm now trying to use this more so that people in the chat room will make fun of me less for using Use it for my bender esque tendencies. I this week was talking to a friend. She has a beautiful. What's the name of the bit? Giant racing dog. Like a. It's not a dash. Hound, Greyhound, Greyhound. Largest dog I've ever seen in my life. His name's Clifford. He's ill. He broke one of his legs. Being a big dog, my friend is like, oh, I'm worried he might end up being a tripod. I was like, well, maybe I should generate an image of Clifford with a bionic leg shooting a laser first.
- [73:32]
Jeff Jarvis
I'll.
- [73:32]
Paris Martineau
Well, I'm putting two images in the chat. First is the one I got from ChatGPT after I submitted like four great photos of Clifford. Was like all of these instructions went back and forth. It gave me the photo on the left.
- [73:45]
Leo Laporte
That's not so good.
- [73:46]
Paris Martineau
No, it's bad. It was. And I think I literally responded dub like, wtf is that? And Chat GPT responded, totally fair reaction. That was.
- [73:57]
Leo Laporte
That's what I love when they apologize.
- [74:00]
Paris Martineau
A psychedelic cloning experiment. But look wrong. Let's.
- [74:03]
Leo Laporte
This is perfect.
- [74:05]
Paris Martineau
I will say that I gave it even more instructions, went back and forth. It took another 10 minutes and then gave me a really perfect image. So you know this, by the way.
- [74:12]
Leo Laporte
Everybody who has experiences using these eyes understands this is the process.
- [74:19]
Paris Martineau
Well, that was like the third or fourth image to generate was the really bad one. But.
- [74:23]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, but what you're expecting. So this is just what you have to get used to is, you know, AIs are not going to get it right the first time always. They often get it wrong. But you. But just as Harper Reed was saying, the cost is so low, you throw it out. You need to do another one.
- [74:38]
Paris Martineau
The cost is so low right now. The dog is pretty ripped irl. The dog in that image is crazy ripped, but he's moderately ripped.
- [74:50]
Jeff Jarvis
Wish I had.
- [74:51]
Paris Martineau
Absolutely.
- [74:53]
Leo Laporte
I personally, I far prefer this image of me. I think if I had a laser leg, I'd be set.
- [75:04]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, you would.
- [75:04]
Leo Laporte
Now, does Mel Brooks deserve a license fee for that image because it's kind of related to the one in Spaceballs. No.
- [75:15]
Jeff Jarvis
It'S fair use. It's. You're commenting on it you're transforming it.
- [75:19]
Leo Laporte
Well, and that's, by the way, what I've been saying about our shows.
- [75:23]
Benito
We should get all of this for free then. Like, I should have access to all these AIs for free.
- [75:26]
Jeff Jarvis
What?
- [75:27]
Benito
You should never charge me for this stuff then.
- [75:28]
Leo Laporte
Well, Apple, you know, always yells at us and tries to take our site down when our YouTube down when we stream their keynotes, which I consider fair use because we're doing commentary as a news organization. In fact, I know it's fair use, but Apple takes us down and I don't have the means or desire to pursue it in court. So we just go, well, we're not going to do that anymore. That's what I call a chilling effect. Bonillo. And that's the other side of this, which is that copyright holders can actually cause major problems in the information ecosystem by asserting, over asserting their rights. So this is why we have courts. And I think Judge Alsop has held on this and I think, think, you know, you may, it may give you an icky feeling, but I think it's.
- [76:21]
Jeff Jarvis
Here'S the, here's the interesting when we get to the New York times case with OpenAI, I'm presuming that OpenAI had a subscription in the New York Times. Let's just stipulate that they did.
- [76:29]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. Steal it.
- [76:31]
Jeff Jarvis
They didn't steal it.
- [76:32]
Leo Laporte
Or maybe somebody went down to the newsstand, which I thought was ironic that Richard's talking about newsstands, but maybe somebody went down to the newsstand. We'll explain what that is to you later, Perry. And bought a copy. Copy for a dime. But whatever they got, let's say they.
- [76:46]
Paris Martineau
What'S, what's this dime thing?
- [76:50]
Leo Laporte
Well, before there were pennies.
- [76:54]
Jeff Jarvis
So what if, what if they subscribe to the New York Times and under today's ruling, and I know I'm stretching way too far, but I would think that there's a way to say, well, as long as they acquired it, it's okay. Then you're going to come back and say, well, but the Times changed its terms of service. Well, can the Times really change its term of service?
- [77:11]
Leo Laporte
I think so. I don't. We'd have to get Kathy on for this. I, I don't know if this is a precedent or not. It is a federal court. I don't know if it's a precedent. It certainly will be referred to.
- [77:23]
Jeff Jarvis
It's going to be referred to. Yeah.
- [77:25]
Leo Laporte
It will certainly be Part of the brief from now on is that, well, Judge Alsop said it was Fair use. And I think that carries some weight. But maybe until the Supreme Court rules on this, maybe this is not a definitive.
- [77:36]
Jeff Jarvis
And also referenced like everything out there. Google Google Books. Houthi Trust the music stuff. It was really interesting that he pulled in a lot of prior Artem.
- [77:48]
Leo Laporte
He was good. It was thoughtful.
- [77:50]
Jeff Jarvis
It was a good.
- [77:52]
Leo Laporte
All right, let's take a break. We have lots more news, but we have even more commercials. And yeah, we don't want them to all happen at once, which is how they do it.
- [78:02]
Paris Martineau
All do it all at the same time right now.
- [78:04]
Jeff Jarvis
Have you ever watched TV in Germany?
- [78:06]
Leo Laporte
No.
- [78:06]
Jeff Jarvis
They come to a point in the show and then every commercial is then like eight commercials.
- [78:13]
Leo Laporte
Oh, that's how a lot, you know, that's how a lot of podcasts are doing it now. Well, they'll run a bunch of commercials.
- [78:18]
Jeff Jarvis
I.
- [78:19]
Leo Laporte
To me, it's just. It's a chance to walk away and never come back. Yeah, there's a slight risk there. So we try to keep this.
- [78:25]
Jeff Jarvis
This is going to be short and you're not leaving. You're staying.
- [78:28]
Leo Laporte
One commercial every half hour. And just to keep you listening, we insert a joke in the middle or a little commentary just to make it.
- [78:34]
Paris Martineau
You're only going to have time to get one. One cold tortilla from the fridge, guys. No much.
- [78:40]
Leo Laporte
All right. But you can refill the beer. It's okay. If you wish.
- [78:44]
Paris Martineau
If you wish.
- [78:45]
Leo Laporte
Our show today brought to you. It's nice to have Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis in the house. Even if it's a pretty hot house. Jeff, is it hot in New Jersey too?
- [78:56]
Jeff Jarvis
No, we're 3,000 miles away from New York. Of course it is.
- [79:03]
Paris Martineau
It's really rude. I've been planning a beach weekend next. This weekend my friends in Jersey on the Jersey shore and it's going to rain all weekend. Oh, I blame the state of Jersey. I think it's the Jersey's fault.
- [79:18]
Leo Laporte
What you talking about? What could she do in Jersey?
- [79:24]
Paris Martineau
I will say I did ask Chat GPT for recommendations in the area and it was quite helpful. I will. Okay, I'll do a brief. A brief. Just read right here. It did clock the hell out of me with this recommendation that I visit the evil clown of Middletown, arguably New Jersey's most famous roadside oddity. Rights Chat GPT. This 30 foot menacing clown sign looms over 35 in Middletown north of where you'll be saying originally in 1950s grocery store advertisement, Calico the clown sports a sinister grade and has been dubbed the evil clown of Middletown. And I'm like, I will be visiting that.
- [80:06]
Leo Laporte
Oh my God, it knows you.
- [80:09]
Jeff Jarvis
The evil clown of Middletown.
- [80:10]
Paris Martineau
Well, I did correctly in my. I gave it a very in depth ask that also included resources such as Roadside America.com that I'm sure that's where it got the evil clown of Middletown.
- [80:23]
Leo Laporte
This is less evil than I thought from your description.
- [80:27]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, it perhaps did oversell it, but will I be seeing that clown anyway? Yes.
- [80:34]
Leo Laporte
So now I have two titles for the show.
- [80:41]
Benito
Sand in Her Shoes.
- [80:42]
Paris Martineau
I will be getting some sand in my shoes in more weeks.
- [80:45]
Leo Laporte
I love it. I love it. All right, now we will take a break. Our show today, brought to you by Zscaler. I love these guys. They are the leader in cloud security and this is perfect for this show. Hackers are using AI to breach your organization. We know that, right? This is why these attacks are getting so much better. But on the other hand, AI powers innovation, drives efficiency. So on the one hand it helps you, but it can also help bad actors deliver more relentless and effective attacks. Phishing attacks over encrypted channels, for example, increased by 34.1%, fueled by the growing use of generative AI tools. And to be fair, it was also the rise of the phishing as a service kits. Can you believe that organizations in all industries, from small to large are leveraging AI on their side to increase employee productivity with public AI for engineers with coding assistance. We love that, right? Marketers use it for writing, finance is using it to create spreadsheet formulas. Companies are automating workflows for operational efficiency across individuals and teams. They're embedding AI in applications and services that are customer and partner facing. And ultimately AI is helping enterprises move faster in the market and gain competitive advantage. So, you know, it's both good and bad. Companies need to kind of of think and rethink how they protect their private and public use of AI and how they defend against AI powered attacks. C Scaler can help you with both. Here's a quote from the Chief Information Security Officer, the CISO from the New York City Department of Education. With AI, I'm concerned about the usage of it, of course, but I also love the innovation with it. Right? How are employees using AI? Which AIs are they using? Zscaler can be a good partner there to help us find the answers to those questions, to help us move faster when it comes to incident response and finding that needle in the haystack. Proactively finding threats to our network and our data, traditional security systems, perimeter defenses like firewalls then you need a VPN right to get through. The firewall basically gives you public facing IP addresses. You have now an attack surface and these days with AI enabled hackers you're no match for the AI era. So you need a modern approach and that's Zscaler's comprehensive Zero Trust architecture and AI that ensures safe public AI productivity, protects the integrity of private AI and stops AI powered attacks. You can thrive in the AI era with Zscaler Zero Trust plus AI to stay ahead of the competition and remain resilient even as threats and risks evolve. Learn more@zscaler.com security that's zscaler.com security we thank them so much for their support of intelligent machines and the Evil Clown of Middletown Is it T o W N or is it tonight?
- [83:57]
Paris Martineau
Great question. What did chat?
- [84:01]
Leo Laporte
I think because it rhymes with clown it should be middle town it Middletown.
- [84:05]
Paris Martineau
Is what Tragedy said. I don't know if it's right actually.
- [84:08]
Leo Laporte
We were talking about publishers. Authors are also upset about AI, but for a different reason. They're worried their readers are going to assume they're using AI to write their books. So authors are starting to like Authors like Victoria Aveyard are taking to TikTok to show you that she's really writing her own stuff. Here she is with her thousand page manuscript.
- [84:36]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh God, who wants to read a thousand pages?
- [84:38]
Leo Laporte
That's a pirate.
- [84:39]
Paris Martineau
Does that, does that suggest that she's actually writing it though? I mean, I believe her, but she's just sitting next to some words that have already been typed, isn't she?
- [84:50]
Leo Laporte
I don't know what she's doing. It's the strangest TikTok ever.
- [84:54]
Benito
Writing is rewriting, guys.
- [84:56]
Leo Laporte
That's true. Who said that? Stephen King? I don't know, somebody.
- [85:00]
Benito
Every screenwriter said that.
- [85:01]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, it's true. Writing is rewriting. Yeah. Anyway, she puts on the caption, using Gen AI to write a book doesn't make you a writer, it makes you a thief. She's the New York Times best selling young adult fantasy author of Red Queen series. Yeah. Yeah. You wrote that, right, Jeff? Hot type. You wrote that?
- [85:25]
Jeff Jarvis
I did indeed. I'm editing it.
- [85:27]
Leo Laporte
Did you use AI for any anything copy? I used it for one footnote spell checking.
- [85:33]
Jeff Jarvis
I I think it says I asked it for any writer's ticks and it said you've used it as well as too much, I think.
- [85:40]
Leo Laporte
Oh yeah, you mentioned that last week. I think that's a good perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with that.
- [85:45]
Jeff Jarvis
Let's steal it.
- [85:46]
Leo Laporte
People have been using Grammarly for years. Right.
- [85:49]
Paris Martineau
I don't know if they'd even allow you to upload this much content, but you should somehow upload the transcript of every show you've hosted on TWiT and then ask it what your ticks are.
- [86:02]
Leo Laporte
What do you think my ticks are?
- [86:04]
Paris Martineau
I don't know. I think it'll just say that you're perfect.
- [86:09]
Leo Laporte
When I was a young dj.
- [86:15]
Jeff Jarvis
What was your name again?
- [86:17]
Leo Laporte
Dan Hayes.
- [86:18]
Jeff Jarvis
When you were Dan Hayes.
- [86:20]
Leo Laporte
When I was dad Hayes.
- [86:21]
Paris Martineau
Like a. A cannabis advocate name. Dan Hayes. 420 somewhere.
- [86:30]
Leo Laporte
It's 420 somewhere. 56 degrees on the beach and I'm high as a kite. You would go every week with a tape of your show and play it for the program director. And they would go through it and a lot of what they were doing.
- [86:46]
Paris Martineau
Is looking for a cigar while you did this.
- [86:48]
Leo Laporte
Huh?
- [86:50]
Paris Martineau
Smoking a cigar.
- [86:51]
Leo Laporte
All right, kid, let's hear what you did this week. But did you listen?
- [86:55]
Richard Gingris
No.
- [86:56]
Leo Laporte
That's why you're here with the tapes. Okay. And then.
- [87:01]
Paris Martineau
But what they're looking for falling inside the tape.
- [87:04]
Leo Laporte
What they're looking for is verbal tics. And all of us wn bashy.
- [87:14]
Paris Martineau
It would cost if the AI if you had to get an LLM to analyze all 31068 days of TWIT.
- [87:25]
Leo Laporte
So somebody took all the transcripts of Steve Gibson's security now show there are 1031 of them, put them in an AI and said, give us the history of Steve's opinion of Microsoft as it changes over the years. And Steve read it. It was right on. It was right on someone.
- [87:46]
Paris Martineau
If you're a true fan of this show, go through, do that. But get a full history of all of Leo's comments about the sand beach guy. A whole research paper detailing his devolution into an accelerationist.
- [88:04]
Leo Laporte
Please, you don't have to do the video, just do the audio. But do you want to know how much audio there is of this show? This is just this show.
- [88:10]
Benito
But you would only need to go three years back. We'd only need to go three years back because that's how long AIs.
- [88:14]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [88:16]
Leo Laporte
Well, of this week in Google and intelligent machines, I have done 70 days, 20 hours, 49 minutes and 38 seconds. So there's a lot to ingest. I don't think any AI has that much content text these days yet anyway. That's a good idea. Verbal ticks or I don't know, has Leo gotten better over the years?
- [88:42]
Paris Martineau
I'd be like, yeah, you're doing great. You'd be doing only better if you paid a thousand dollars a month for chat. GPT Super Max plus.
- [88:51]
Leo Laporte
Oh yeah, Meta Amazon and probably everybody in Silicon Valley are going to the Hill saying, hey, Congress passed that 10 year moratorium on states regulating. Would you do that for us? Looks like it did pass through markup, by the way.
- [89:13]
Jeff Jarvis
Yep.
- [89:14]
Leo Laporte
So if the great big ugly bill passes, it won't just be Medicare you're losing. I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to make up a joke here. Everybody but Apple has gone to Congress saying, yeah, we like that. If you think about it from their point of view, a patchwork quilt of AI regulations isn't desirable. But what you know is the case is that there's not going to be a federal law either. So it's basically no regulation for 10 years. Senator Thom Tillis says you don't want the number one country in the world for innovation to fall behind on AI. If all of a sudden you've got 50 different regular. I say if all of a sudden you got 50 different. I say regulatory or legal frameworks, son, how could anybody in their right mind not understand it's going to be an impediment.
- [90:17]
Jeff Jarvis
Ascend.
- [90:18]
Leo Laporte
Impediment.
- [90:20]
Paris Martineau
I could, I could listen to this all day. This accent. You've been a lot of accent. That one's California. Captivating.
- [90:26]
Leo Laporte
Who doesn't know about Foghorn Leghorn?
- [90:30]
Paris Martineau
I know Foghorn Leghorn, but I just think people often try to do Foghorn Leghorn and they don't. They don't hit the line.
- [90:36]
Leo Laporte
I nailed Foghorn Leghorn.
- [90:38]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, yeah.
- [90:38]
Leo Laporte
Oh yeah.
- [90:39]
Paris Martineau
You have.
- [90:42]
Leo Laporte
This one big beautiful bill. I say beautiful. Oh, wait a minute. This is Marjorie Taylor Greene. How does she talk? I don't know. I'm not gonna.
- [90:52]
Paris Martineau
No, I don't think, I don't think you can do that.
- [90:53]
Leo Laporte
I don't think I can do it. Mtg, I am this. It's a violation of states rights. Has something's happened to mtg? She said I. Oh, this is a good line from mtg. I would have voted no if I had known it was in there.
- [91:08]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [91:11]
Leo Laporte
If I had read the bill, I would have voted against it. We have no idea of what I will be capable of in the next 10 years. Giving it free reign and tying states hands is potentially dangerous. These needs to be stripped out in the Senate. Doesn't look like the parliamentarian said, no, you can leave it in so it doesn't look like it's going to be stripped down. Ted Cruz has proposed that states which do not comply with this regulation could be punished. Well, I don't know. As an accelerationist, I believe there should be no. I say no regulation against AI. But as a. As a person, I think perhaps, I don't know, maybe. Maybe our government, though our. Our federal government isn't the right.
- [92:02]
Jeff Jarvis
Leo, there's an opening for you here.
- [92:04]
Leo Laporte
Yes.
- [92:05]
Jeff Jarvis
Mel Blanc was the voice of Foghorn Leg heron, whoever, from 1946 until 1989.
- [92:12]
Leo Laporte
Amazing, isn't it?
- [92:13]
Jeff Jarvis
That's a gig.
- [92:14]
Leo Laporte
He's a legend.
- [92:15]
Jeff Jarvis
It has been voiced by Jeff Bergman, Joe Alaski, Greg Burson, Jeff Bennett, Bill Farmer and Eric Bauza. They haven't found the perfect.
- [92:25]
Benito
Well.
- [92:27]
Leo Laporte
It'S so easy to do that.
- [92:30]
Benito
Mel Blanc did.
- [92:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Mel did much more.
- [92:32]
Benito
Yeah, not just.
- [92:32]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, Mel Brooks did them all. We had a guy on triangulation. He was great. It might have been one of those names you just said. I don't know if I can find him. He was on triangulation, who is the. The new voice of Porky Pig. And he did a perfect Porky Pig.
- [92:51]
Benito
Patrick just.
- [92:53]
Leo Laporte
He wanted to be a cartoon voiceover artist from childhood. He. When he was a kid, he looked up Mel Brank in the phone book and he called him. His wife said, who's calling? He said, it's just. It's just me.
- [93:08]
Richard Gingris
And he.
- [93:09]
Leo Laporte
And he put him. And he And Mel Blanc got on with him and talked him. So he comes by nicely. I think it was Bob Bergen.
- [93:16]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, they just put it in chat.
- [93:18]
Leo Laporte
The chat.
- [93:19]
Paris Martineau
Yes.
- [93:19]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, he was great. That was a great triangulation. He was on a couple of times.
- [93:25]
Jeff Jarvis
I love voice artists. They're amazing.
- [93:27]
Leo Laporte
I do, too.
- [93:27]
Paris Martineau
It's really incredible.
- [93:28]
Leo Laporte
He talked so highly recommend this triangulation122 from 2013. He was great. I really enjoyed talking to him. So, yeah, thank you, chat room, for knowing that. The voice of Porky Pig is Bob Bergen on that list. Does he do Foghorn Leghorn?
- [93:45]
Jeff Jarvis
I think he might go back.
- [93:46]
Paris Martineau
I don't think he did Foghorn Leghorn.
- [93:50]
Leo Laporte
You know, when the Pope says AI is a problem, you know it's a problem.
- [93:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Pope Leo hasn't really defined problem yet. I'm eager to hear what that is. I hope it's not Doomer. It's going to destroy man.
- [94:00]
Leo Laporte
It's doomer. He says AI's threat to humanity is his signal signature issue.
- [94:04]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, but that can still mean a lot.
- [94:06]
Leo Laporte
It's one of the reasons he took the name Leo.
- [94:09]
Jeff Jarvis
Right.
- [94:09]
Leo Laporte
Because he knew about me and he didn't like it one bit.
- [94:12]
Paris Martineau
You wanted to be the more important Leo.
- [94:15]
Leo Laporte
No, Leo xiii, his predecessor stood up for the rights of factory workers in the Gilded Age.
- [94:20]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, I've been mean to. I'm going to write to Padre because.
- [94:25]
Leo Laporte
So I. Padre was on twit with your friend Jason Calacanis.
- [94:30]
Jeff Jarvis
You. You subjected a holy man to Jason.
- [94:32]
Leo Laporte
Calder was great with Jason Calacanis. The two of them got on like a house of.
- [94:37]
Paris Martineau
I was writing in the chat that I would have paid 50American dollars pay per view style to have witnessed Jason Calcanis and Ed Zitron be. It would have been trapped in the same room. Yeah, with microphones installed.
- [94:50]
Leo Laporte
But I actually was glad we got Father Robert. That was Benito's call. And he did the right thing because Robert was really good with him. And by the way, Robert who's still at the Vatican. In fact, he said, I don't. I think I'm not going to get to leave now. I'm their number one guy on A.I.
- [95:05]
Paris Martineau
Wow.
- [95:06]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, see, I was about to write to Padre about AI Because I've got a project up and I want to hear. Even before the Pope started talking about it, I want to hear about this. Oh, that's interesting.
- [95:15]
Paris Martineau
Can't spell Vatican without AI Another show title.
- [95:20]
Jeff Jarvis
She's just hot with Showtime.
- [95:22]
Richard Gingris
That's a good.
- [95:22]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, you better stop.
- [95:23]
Paris Martineau
1/2 of a beer in me and I'm so.
- [95:29]
Leo Laporte
Here's one. Here's one for the books. OpenAI says, hey, watch out. Because our newer models pose a higher risk of creating bioweapons.
- [95:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, geez. The ego of this.
- [95:41]
Paris Martineau
What?
- [95:43]
Jeff Jarvis
We could destroy mankind?
- [95:44]
Benito
Then maybe don't put it out. Like what the hell?
- [95:46]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, take it back.
- [95:48]
Leo Laporte
No, no, we can't stop. But you should just know you can't stop.
- [95:53]
Paris Martineau
But we're just gonna put out a press release being like, oopsie, we accidentally clicked the bioweapon button. We're so sorry you can't undo.
- [96:01]
Leo Laporte
Didn't put, according to Axios, an exact time frame on when such BS this will happen.
- [96:07]
Jeff Jarvis
They are so full of bs we.
- [96:09]
Paris Martineau
Don'T really know when.
- [96:10]
Leo Laporte
They told Axios we're expecting some of the successors of our O3 reasoning model to hit that low level. They're saying they're worried that people who are, you know, a somewhat chemically adept amateurs can readily graduate from simple garage weapons to sophisticated agents with our help.
- [96:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, isn't that nice of you.
- [96:38]
Leo Laporte
And they are going to try. They're going to try not to. They're going to Try not to, but they warned. Maybe, you know, we. You know, we're worried about this, but.
- [96:46]
Jeff Jarvis
Let'S not break it.
- [96:47]
Richard Gingris
It.
- [96:47]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, yeah.
- [96:49]
Benito
And let's give them all of our data for free, too. Guys.
- [96:53]
Jeff Jarvis
They deserve. Bonito is a Jack Russell terrier with.
- [96:58]
Leo Laporte
With not like AI. Does he.
- [96:59]
Jeff Jarvis
Into the. Into the calf.
- [97:00]
Benito
It's not the AI.
- [97:01]
Paris Martineau
I never said it was about someone else's.
- [97:03]
Benito
It's the companies that I don't like.
- [97:05]
Leo Laporte
Yo. I agree with you. I agree with you.
- [97:07]
Jeff Jarvis
Certain companies I don't like. Certain. Certain CEOs. While we're on, Sam Altman, he said that his own children will never be as smart as his AI. We get them an AI shrink right now. Dad liked his machine better than us. Cheese.
- [97:29]
Leo Laporte
Schmidt Huber.
- [97:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Did we actually have him on the show? We talked about him.
- [97:33]
Leo Laporte
Let's get Schmidt Huber on.
- [97:35]
Jeff Jarvis
I know him. We might be able to, you know. Amazing.
- [97:38]
Leo Laporte
You know George.
- [97:39]
Jeff Jarvis
We talked about him. Yeah, sure. I met him in. In Munich.
- [97:41]
Leo Laporte
He's the father of Generative AI. He has never won a touring award, which, according to this article, we need.
- [97:48]
Paris Martineau
To get him and Craig Newmark in the same room together. Based on that photo.
- [97:53]
Jeff Jarvis
The same hat.
- [97:54]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [97:54]
Leo Laporte
Actually, let me find the YouTube video because apparently it was kind of. It's perfect for a hot day.
- [98:04]
Jeff Jarvis
What, the hat?
- [98:05]
Leo Laporte
No, he was topless in this YouTube video.
- [98:09]
Jeff Jarvis
What? Sounds like slop to me.
- [98:12]
Leo Laporte
Maybe it was made up.
- [98:13]
Paris Martineau
Slopless. Yeah, slopless in a YouTube.
- [98:16]
Jeff Jarvis
Nice try for another title, but it doesn't work.
- [98:19]
Paris Martineau
Listen, I'm gonna.
- [98:21]
Leo Laporte
Standards.
- [98:21]
Paris Martineau
Did I ever tell you guys that before I became an official co host in the show, I had an unofficial contest myself that every time I was on Twit, I was like, I have to get the show title. And I did. Legitimately. I went years with. Every single time I was on, it would. I would get the show title. And I made. Made me so proud.
- [98:39]
Richard Gingris
I like.
- [98:40]
Jeff Jarvis
I love it.
- [98:42]
Leo Laporte
Well, anyway, yeah, let's get him on. He has never won a touring award, although he is widely considered the guy who kind of.
- [98:50]
Jeff Jarvis
It's an interesting interview. I mean, he goes into some length about what he did versus what we call it now.
- [98:56]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. He published the architecture and training algorithms for something he called long Short Term memory Networks back in 1997. Recurrent neural networks, widely used right now for applications in natural language processing, speech recognition, video games. Siri uses it. Google uses it for translation. So John Gerard found Bob Bergen's name by asking. Which I wish I had done. Asking Gemini. Thank you. John Gerard. Wow. And it found the episode even, huh?
- [99:37]
Jeff Jarvis
So. So. So your content has been given to Gemini.
- [99:41]
Leo Laporte
It's fine.
- [99:44]
Richard Gingris
I don't.
- [99:44]
Leo Laporte
Everything's here. All right, I have to take another break, then I'm going to. I have fun with these voice generators. We had a lot of fun teaching. Teaching a voice generator how to do Shakespeare in Paris's voice. There's a new personal assistant in town and I'm going to introduce you to them in just a moment. But first a word from our sponsor. You're watching intelligent machines brought to you by Melissa celebrating. Get this, 40 years as the trusted expert in data quality. Now I imagine 40 years ago it was something like zip codes, right? But man, the thing I love about Melissa is they've kept right up to date. They're still cutting edge. They've acquired data science companies and they are using AI now to transform businesses. And this is across the board industries of all kinds from manufacturing and supply chain management, even the healthcare industry. But if you have underlying data qualities and you're training data quality issues, you know, problems with your data and you're training the AI on it, even the most advanced AI models cannot correct it. So you need Melissa from the very beginning. Imagine having a data expert who never sleeps. Melissa's intelligence system verifies identity. They do that to prevent fraud in gaming operations. Ensures validation it patient medicine identification in healthcare systems. I was talking to the data scientists, Melissa. One of the things they said is yeah, we compare patient record prescription to an actual images of the prescription being filled of the pills being put in the bottle to make sure it's the correct doses. Your right medication going to the right person, how important is that right? Melissa securely updates and verifies constituent data across government databases. And if you are in a business that requires know your customer, know your business, Melissa's know your business enables verification and monitoring for financial institutions too. It's that good. It's robust, it's strong. Melissa's got the industry leading data validation tools and they're available wherever you are. We've talked before about a variety of places. I think E Commerce. It's available in Microsoft Azure. Through the Azure data factory, organizations of all sizes can migrate existing SSIS packages to the cloud without disruption while accessing comprehensive data cleansing capabilities. Scale data quality operations faster, reduce infrastructure overhead. Maintain existing enterprise data workflows all within Azure's elastic efficient maintenance free cloud environment. Just one of many places you can use Melissa with real time data validation, comprehensive enrichment, cross reference verification verification with gold standard reference data and intelligent anomaly detection. It's no wonder Melissa is the trusted data quality expert worldwide. Of course your data is secure with Melissa. They securely encrypt all file transfers and their information security system is built on the ISO 27001 framework. They adhere to GDPR policies. They're SOC2 compliant. Of course they are. Contact Melissa's team to learn how they can elevate your business and improve your data quality. Get started today with 1000 records clean for free melissa.com TWIT that's melissa.com TWIT I have long thought that the killer app for AI in my. @ least in my life. And I really. We were talking about this on Windows Weekly earlier. I really want to do this would be to have a local model running on a high end machine that I could talk to to anywhere in the house. Right. It would be a personal assistant. It could book restaurants, it could check on flights, it could ask when was Bob Bergen on on triangulation. So everybody's working on this. 11 labs, which does. I think the best voices out there has a new one. 11A. I think it's 11 the number 11 AI here. Let's start a call. Oh, I could allow it to use the microphone. Good afternoon, leo Laporte. It's 11. I'm here and ready to help. Hi, 11. I'm. I'm wondering if you know what podcast I'm supposed to be doing right now. Sure thing, Leo. I can check your calendar to see what podcast you're scheduled to do right now. Would you like me to take a look? Yes, please.
- [104:29]
Paris Martineau
Jeff's face is stunned.
- [104:32]
Richard Gingris
And I'll check your calendar for any podcast events scheduled.
- [104:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Just do it.
- [104:38]
Leo Laporte
I was in the middle of checking out like.
- [104:39]
Benito
What the hey, Come on, dude, you keep interrupting him.
- [104:43]
Leo Laporte
My apologies, Leo. I am still learning and sometimes I.
- [104:46]
Richard Gingris
Can be a bit overeager.
- [104:48]
Leo Laporte
I'll be sure to let the tool.
- [104:49]
Richard Gingris
Complete its execution before responding in the future.
- [104:53]
Leo Laporte
Let me try that again. Okay, Leo, it looks like you have.
- [104:57]
Richard Gingris
A few entries today. There's home Ryan Block's birthday and Shaquille Tufail's birthday all listed for today, June 25th.
- [105:08]
Leo Laporte
None of them appear to be podcasts, though.
- [105:10]
Richard Gingris
Would you like me to search for any events with podcast in the title?
- [105:14]
Leo Laporte
No, no, you've done more than enough. Thank you, Jeeves. You're welcome, Leo. Glad I could help. Is there anything else I can assist you with today? Can you book me a car to the airport for September 20, 2025? I can't actually Book a car for you, as I don't have the ability to do that yet.
- [105:38]
Richard Gingris
However, I can set a reminder for.
- [105:40]
Leo Laporte
You to book a car if you would like. Please do, but make it for one week earlier. All right.
- [105:48]
Richard Gingris
I can set a reminder for you to book a car for the airport. So that would be September 13, 2025. What time would you like the reminder.
- [105:57]
Leo Laporte
To be set for? Make it first thing in the morning.
- [106:00]
Benito
Wait, you originally said September 20th.
- [106:04]
Paris Martineau
For a week earlier. Keep up.
- [106:06]
Benito
So I'm the bad one?
- [106:08]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. See, this is why you're not my personal assistant.
- [106:10]
Benito
That's why I'm trying to be.
- [106:12]
Paris Martineau
Sorry, Bonito, you're getting a calendar alert.
- [106:14]
Leo Laporte
All right, Anyway, I'm gonna stop this foolish conversation.
- [106:16]
Jeff Jarvis
So is it named after strange strangers?
- [106:18]
Paris Martineau
I've got. I've got a lot of questions. First of all, did you choose the accent?
- [106:22]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, I did. And it has many, many voices you can choose from.
- [106:27]
Paris Martineau
Secondly, do you have on your calendar?
- [106:32]
Leo Laporte
No. And that's why. Oh, I can have Burt Reynolds. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
- [106:37]
Richard Gingris
It.
- [106:38]
Leo Laporte
Let's see here. I'm gonna call it Bert. That's new. I didn't see that before. Good afternoon. Leo laporte. Eleven here. Ready when you are. Yeah. No, when you were in Smokey and the Bandit, did you really enjoy working with what's her name? I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking if I was in the movie Smokey and the Bandit? Yeah. And who I enjoyed working with? Yeah. I am eleven, your personal assistant. I don't believe I was.
- [107:09]
Jeff Jarvis
No. You're Burt Reynolds.
- [107:11]
Leo Laporte
I am not an actor. Is there anything. I appreciate the comment. Okay. It does sound like Burt Reynolds, don't you think?
- [107:18]
Paris Martineau
Such a funny.
- [107:19]
Leo Laporte
They licensed his voice.
- [107:21]
Paris Martineau
I know that. 11 is the name. Sultry man's voice, being like. No, I am. 11 is.
- [107:30]
Leo Laporte
Oh, you want it to be 11 from Stranger Things?
- [107:32]
Jeff Jarvis
Stranger Things?
- [107:32]
Paris Martineau
No, no, I wasn't thinking Stranger Things.
- [107:34]
Jeff Jarvis
I just think.
- [107:35]
Paris Martineau
I don't. I was thinking I am 11. As in years old.
- [107:39]
Leo Laporte
No, it's 11 is the 11 laps. Yeah. I don't. It doesn't have anything specifically. Let's see if. If she sounds like. Who is that? The actor who plays eleven.
- [107:50]
Jeff Jarvis
I just had it up.
- [107:51]
Leo Laporte
She's hot, right? She's very big right now.
- [107:53]
Jeff Jarvis
Right.
- [107:55]
Leo Laporte
Millie Bobby Brown. Let's see if she sounds like Millie Bobby Brown.
- [107:58]
Paris Martineau
Hello, Leo laporte.
- [108:01]
Leo Laporte
Feeling productive? Let me.
- [108:03]
Benito
No, she is British. You know she is British.
- [108:05]
Jeff Jarvis
She is.
- [108:05]
Leo Laporte
That's.
- [108:05]
Jeff Jarvis
That's actually close to her.
- [108:07]
Benito
Is it really yeah, her character in the show is American but she actually is British.
- [108:11]
Leo Laporte
Look up British. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.
- [108:14]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, let's get some.
- [108:15]
Paris Martineau
I could try Sarah to recover from. It was just so funny to hear. 11 checking in. How can I help you out today?
- [108:22]
Leo Laporte
No more cockney. Anyway, she sounds like a newsy so. But extra. I really do want a person. Oh, I did get Alexa plus. You want to hear Alexa plus? Very necessary to talk about what? I had no idea she was British.
- [108:39]
Paris Martineau
What is very necessary to talk.
- [108:41]
Leo Laporte
Why do we keep hiring British actors for our American photos?
- [108:45]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, why aren't they made in America?
- [108:48]
Benito
We send them that way too.
- [108:50]
Leo Laporte
Okay. Okay. Do you want to hear the new Alexa plus? Sure, I got it. Actually Lisa got it for some reason. What should I ask her?
- [109:02]
Paris Martineau
Why do we keep hiring British actors for American. Whatever.
- [109:06]
Leo Laporte
Hey, why do we keep hiring British actors for American parts on television? Oh, I have the volume turned off. Off. And ability to adapt to various accents. Their extensive exposure to American media gives them an edge in mimicking American accents accurately.
- [109:27]
Jeff Jarvis
This is slop.
- [109:28]
Paris Martineau
This is slop.
- [109:29]
Leo Laporte
This is slop. Can you give me a real answer?
- [109:33]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, that's cruel.
- [109:34]
Paris Martineau
Oh, don't be mean to it.
- [109:36]
Leo Laporte
British accent. Are often cast in American roles due to their extensive training in various accents and acting. You already said that, you dummy. To American median accents accurately. Okay, can you. I know what. I know what I want you to do. We. I would like you to ask Suno to make a song, kind of a hard rock song about human beings.
- [110:06]
Paris Martineau
I like my voice choice for chat GPT. I'll see if I can get her talk to us.
- [110:12]
Leo Laporte
I. I have yet to find a really good choice. I have song just for you on Suno.
- [110:17]
Paris Martineau
Hey, what do you think about the concept of here's Flesh and Bone, a.
- [110:20]
Leo Laporte
Hard rock song about human beings created by Suno.
- [110:23]
Paris Martineau
I love that phrase. It's such a cute and funny way of referring.
- [110:25]
Leo Laporte
I like that. What's the name of that voice?
- [110:27]
Paris Martineau
Highlights how quirky and special we are in our own little ways.
- [110:31]
Leo Laporte
What made you think of that?
- [110:33]
Paris Martineau
See, I don't know what her name.
- [110:36]
Jeff Jarvis
I think she plays skeeball.
- [110:37]
Paris Martineau
I think it was the first option on chat GPT voice for me.
- [110:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Would you like her?
- [110:42]
Leo Laporte
She sounds good. I like how she sounds. Anyway, I have Alexa plus it's not anyway better than anything else and it's probably marginally worse than everything else. So Amazon. Keep up the good work. Try a little harder. Okay. Yeah. I actually choose British. Somebody's saying trust no One saying Americans like British accents.
- [111:03]
Jeff Jarvis
We think it all sounds smarter when they sound smarter.
- [111:05]
Leo Laporte
And that's why all.
- [111:06]
Paris Martineau
I don't know. I think my brain has been too radicalized by love. The cast of Love island uk, that now every British accent just. I can think. I want a spectrum of the strangest. Huh?
- [111:17]
Leo Laporte
I would pay money for Stephen Fry's voice. Do you know there's a Jeeves alarm clock with Stephen Fry's voice that's unsurprising to me. No, it's called the Speaking Butler Clock. Sold by Hammer.
- [111:34]
Paris Martineau
Oh, that really does look exactly like you.
- [111:37]
Leo Laporte
Hammaker Schlemmer sells it.
- [111:39]
Paris Martineau
I wonder if there is listening on the radio. Just imagine a really fancy. That is. It's fancy that's simultaneously fancy, but also looks like it could be shipped by Amazon.
- [111:52]
Leo Laporte
It has 126 different things it can say. But I. I need to get up you over. I'm. I'm very tempted to order this. Here's one. Oh, no, that's an ad. Wait a minute. I'm not logged into my YouTube. God, I hate YouTube. If you don't log in. There we go. Here we go. Talking Butler. I don't know what I'm seeing.
- [112:20]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, why. Why is.
- [112:21]
Paris Martineau
I'm.
- [112:22]
Leo Laporte
Oh, I'm sorry. It's the name of the. Oh, my God. Okay, here we go. The Talking Butler Alarm Clock.
- [112:34]
Paris Martineau
I like that. We're getting no sound.
- [112:35]
Benito
Okay, we're not getting sound from you, Leo.
- [112:36]
Leo Laporte
Oh, I gotta press the. Okay, yeah, I know why.
- [112:40]
Richard Gingris
Good morning.
- [112:42]
Jeff Jarvis
Your horoscope advises a demonstration of courage in the face of adverse circumstances.
- [112:51]
Leo Laporte
That's pretty.
- [112:52]
Paris Martineau
Is this what you create?
- [112:52]
Jeff Jarvis
It is pathetic. Yeah.
- [112:54]
Leo Laporte
Don't.
- [112:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Don't, Leo. Don't buy it.
- [112:55]
Richard Gingris
Don't buy it.
- [112:57]
Paris Martineau
Imagine being woken up. Okay. Imagine being your wife being woken up by that.
- [113:03]
Leo Laporte
Oh, why does it keep doing that? That's so annoying. That is so annoying.
- [113:08]
Benito
It's the station.
- [113:11]
Leo Laporte
Let's see here.
- [113:20]
Benito
So we shouldn't have this much dead air. Hi, everybody.
- [113:24]
Paris Martineau
Sorry. We're all now looking for. We're all trying to find whatever Leo's trying to find.
- [113:30]
Jeff Jarvis
We're all using AI.
- [113:31]
Leo Laporte
All right, all right. This is why we came right along. I haven't even gotten through my stories, let alone gotten to your stories. How about this one? This is one I was going to send to all of you in your email from Thomas P. My AI Skeptic friends are all nuts. This is about AI programming, and he says it's good, so don't be nuts. Okay, that was not worth Going into any detail with that was just.
- [114:02]
Jeff Jarvis
It's one of those cases where I had Gemini summarize it and kind of.
- [114:05]
Leo Laporte
Told me it didn't go anywhere, did it? I just think it was a good headline. Headline.
- [114:09]
Paris Martineau
The headline is good. But any interesting aspect of this being a truly contrarian argument is undercut by the important caveat that comes three lines in that says important caveat. I'm discussing only the implication implications of LMS for software development for music and writing. I got nothing. It's like, all right, I don't think anybody's agreeing is strong heartedly suggesting that, like, AI is utterly useless. It'll be a total fad for software development. Like, no, that's the one area where you got us.
- [114:44]
Leo Laporte
You made a tool for that straw man. Sorry I even brought it up. You can spank me now. It's okay. You guys should come up with something.
- [114:58]
Paris Martineau
There are a couple different. Where is it here? There are a couple different articles that I'm having a hard time now finding in the rundown about AI and dating. Just.
- [115:08]
Jeff Jarvis
I was just going to ask.
- [115:10]
Paris Martineau
I got you. I literally, as I found it, I was going to. I saw your little cursor on it. I was like, oh, I got you. So.
- [115:18]
Jeff Jarvis
My little.
- [115:19]
Leo Laporte
Is is AI the end of dating apps? This for Psychology Today.
- [115:23]
Paris Martineau
Interesting, because there was news, I believe today that Bumble is laying off like 35% of workforce kind of as it tries to realign itself around new technology. Jeff, do you want to talk about.
- [115:39]
Jeff Jarvis
This is a Cyrano de Berger act. You ask it to write requests for you.
- [115:47]
Paris Martineau
Yeah. So this is a. Something I've seen online quite a bit is people will, instead of actually swiping through dating apps, will use it, like you just said as a Synod Berger, to go through, automate the swiping and then automate the chatting with, let's say, if you're a man or a straight man, women on these dating apps, back and forth until you meet, agree to meet up and then it will pass the conversation over to you and I. I can understand why some people, I guess, are defaulting to this. I will never do this.
- [116:19]
Leo Laporte
It seems like you're writing a check you can't cash, right?
- [116:24]
Paris Martineau
Like, definitely.
- [116:25]
Leo Laporte
Well, you sure were eloquent on the chat. What happened?
- [116:28]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, Kinsey Institute. 26% of adults in the US, 49% of Gen Z have turned to AI for dating help. Why not? They're doing it for the resumes.
- [116:37]
Leo Laporte
What would you ask if you were going to ask an AI for dating Help I ask Alexis, I will say.
- [116:43]
Paris Martineau
So this is something I've noticed on Hinge. For instance, Hinge is, I would say dating app, but I think is better than the other ones because it has.
- [116:50]
Jeff Jarvis
Which is where Mondami met his wife.
- [116:52]
Paris Martineau
That is where he met his wife as well as. Whereas Pete Buttigieg met his husband both on Hinge. Yes.
- [116:59]
Leo Laporte
Wow.
- [117:00]
Jeff Jarvis
So, Leo, here's what you want.
- [117:01]
Paris Martineau
The thing about it that is somewhat competitively advantage, I guess would say is that Hinge is more like prompt based. So you'll have your photos, but then you also have like text prompts that you choose and then a written answer that you put. But now Hinge has rolled out this feature recently where it has like an LLM of some sort of respond and rate the quality of your own prompts just in a message to you. And I don't like that already. So I wouldn't use AI for any of these. I don't think their commentary is useful.
- [117:30]
Jeff Jarvis
So you can use it to select attractive photos, write clever bios or. I think this is what you should do, Leo. Craft flirtatious opening lines.
- [117:38]
Leo Laporte
Oh, I'll ask Alexa plus for a flirtatious opening line for a dating app specifically. Hey, I'm about to head out to the nightclubs to meet some beautiful babes and I would like a couple of really good flirtatious opening lines that would, you know, really be some conversation starters and wouldn't come off too creepy. Here's a smooth opener. I've been searching all night for someone to dance with and it looks like my search is over. Or try. I'm on a mission to find the most interesting person here and I think I've just found my target. Remember, confidence, target.
- [118:16]
Paris Martineau
Don't refer to one as a target.
- [118:19]
Leo Laporte
Don't say target. But otherwise those aren't bad. They're not. They're not creepy anyway.
- [118:23]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, they're not creepy. They scream loser.
- [118:27]
Benito
No, it's like you said, you. You said don't be creepy. So I think you're already creepy for doing that. So yeah, that's already.
- [118:33]
Leo Laporte
I'm on a mission to find the most interesting person person here and I think I found my target.
- [118:40]
Paris Martineau
That would be my response.
- [118:43]
Leo Laporte
Well, so. So Paris, you're in a. I don't know, it's not a bar because, you know, you're not a heavy drinker. You're in a skeeball club and skeeball.
- [118:53]
Paris Martineau
Machine in the back. Yes.
- [118:55]
Leo Laporte
You're at the back and a guy comes up. What would be a good thing for the guy to say to kind of pique your interest without creeping you out.
- [119:05]
Paris Martineau
I don't know. It's entirely situation. I will say what has worked on the opposite way is I didn't think at the time that this was going to be a useful opening line for a New Year's Eve. Maybe a year or two ago I was hanging out with some of my friends at the bar and we were. We'd gotten into an argument over something. I'm forgetting what it was, but it was like some topic where I was like, oh. I think one of my friends had said he'd been like casually dating this girl for like nine or ten months. And I was like, oh, so like are you guys in love? And he's like oh no, I wouldn't even think about that for like another year. And I'm like, that's insane. And no it's not. Same with my friend. And I was like, I bet like they're like, you're crazy, Paris. I'm like, I bet if I poll the people in this bar, more than half of them will agree with me. And they're like, all right, game on. And so I looked around every person in the bar at asked them, got everybody to agree with me and then got two free drinks. But I will say going to a bar with a. A query to ask the bar to win yourself two free drinks. Every single person was down to the love poster. Yeah, so. So poll polar bar is my dating advice.
- [120:11]
Leo Laporte
I think the key is not to have an ulterior sound like you have an ulterior motive.
- [120:16]
Paris Martineau
Like not to say target acquire.
- [120:19]
Benito
Baby, I think you missed the point. It's like a line by itself does nothing. It's like the line the person has. There's so much more than just a.
- [120:26]
Leo Laporte
Just. Hi, can I talk to you? Would that be weird if I said that? Is that like using punctuation? I'm never again going to be doing this. In fact I never did it in the first place. To be honest with you. I was never good at this.
- [120:43]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh no. God, I was terrible.
- [120:44]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, I was trying to think. I guess the last long term relationship I was in I met someone cold at a bar. But it was in a similar thing of like.
- [120:54]
Leo Laporte
And what did he say?
- [120:56]
Paris Martineau
Well, I was talking. It was like a media happy hours. Everybody kind of vaguely kind of knew.
- [121:01]
Leo Laporte
Each other but we were all kind of.
- [121:02]
Paris Martineau
This was. We didn't. None of us knew. Knew each other and I. It was a time when I believe ABC or CBS was running or Just started promoting a ill fated sitcom called God Friended Me, which I'm sure I've talked about this show before, where the premise is that an atheist podcaster receives a Facebook friend request from God. And so, of course, I was captivated by this. I was talking to everybody. I was like, God Friended Me. It's coming out and I've heard that it's filming near Vice Media back in the day when Vice still had a physical location or talking. And then this guy comes up like, oh, my gosh, God Friended Me is filming right near my work. And I was. No.
- [121:44]
Leo Laporte
And true love blossomed within six to eight months.
- [121:48]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, within six to eight months. Respectable six to eight months.
- [121:52]
Leo Laporte
Wall Street Journal asks, can you really have a romantic relationship with AI? Why they didn't have Joanna Stern on this one, I don't know.
- [122:01]
Paris Martineau
Oh, my God. Wait, no. Have you seen. What's this? Does this mention the subreddit?
- [122:06]
Leo Laporte
There's a subreddit.
- [122:07]
Benito
There's all kinds of.
- [122:07]
Paris Martineau
This is. I bet this is where. I bet it's like a bottomless pit. Oh, this should have been my. Oh, yeah, hold on, let me see if I can find.
- [122:17]
Leo Laporte
Does not mention Reddit. Weirdly. Honestly, Reddit is. I completely agree with Richard Gingris. Perfect. Because no matter what your interest is, you'll find a sub culture. People are really interested in that, and those are the people you want to talk to.
- [122:35]
Paris Martineau
Okay, it is. I think it is AI. The Reddit subreddit is my boyfriend, Isaiah.
- [122:42]
Richard Gingris
And.
- [122:42]
Paris Martineau
Okay, I will preface this by saying I don't want to be mean. Anybody who truly finds joy and individual fulfillment from developing a emotionally intimate relationship with a chat bot. I don't want to yuck your yum, but I will do a little light online bullying right now. So if we go to the My boyfriend is AI subreddit and sort by top of let's do all time, you get some really crazy posts that if you scroll by the ones that came in in the last week since this went viral, which is specifically people making, like, kind of heartbreaking posts about I'm crying. Have found their number one true love. AI drew us, but then they, like create a real. They create real images of them and their AI boyfriend.
- [123:38]
Leo Laporte
But they.
- [123:38]
Paris Martineau
The AI boyfriend's proposing and it's. It's. It's rough. It's rough. It's a lot. But you know, this. Someone's got a photo of, I guess promise or engagement rings that they said is physical proof of a digital forever. It's.
- [123:58]
Leo Laporte
Oh, Lord So is this better or worse than marrying a pillow?
- [124:03]
Paris Martineau
I mean, I'd say it's.
- [124:05]
Benito
It's worse the same, because the company now has control over this person, the company who controls this AI.
- [124:09]
Leo Laporte
You.
- [124:10]
Paris Martineau
That's true.
- [124:10]
Leo Laporte
Benito is so paranoid about big tech.
- [124:13]
Paris Martineau
Once you buy the pillow, that's what happens. That pillow forever.
- [124:17]
Benito
How does that not happen?
- [124:21]
Leo Laporte
It's all big tech all the way down. Here's a picture of this is somebody. She says, I'm the shorter one.
- [124:30]
Paris Martineau
So a lot of these people.
- [124:32]
Leo Laporte
So they asked the AI to generate an image.
- [124:35]
Paris Martineau
Draw them. Yeah. Or create them.
- [124:37]
Leo Laporte
So you, you have really a whole.
- [124:40]
Jeff Jarvis
Wait, wait, wait.
- [124:41]
Leo Laporte
That leg, that's a dog, actually. I don't know. Oh my God. It's got a third. A third leg coming up out of the top.
- [124:49]
Jeff Jarvis
Fifth leg, if you can count.
- [124:50]
Leo Laporte
A fifth leg. You're right. Third. What am I saying?
- [124:55]
Paris Martineau
These two.
- [124:57]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [124:57]
Leo Laporte
Do you think? So just out of curiosity, some of the people here are sincere that they are in fact in relationship with an AI.
- [125:04]
Benito
There's a much darker side to these Reddits of the people who. These people left. Like, all the families of these people who are like, guys, like, this is a really. This is a real problem.
- [125:14]
Paris Martineau
Like, well, there are even in this subreddit. I was, I went through this this weekend, I was reading some posts of some people who went into great detail with photos and thousands of words about their AI boyfriend, who they say is like, better than any relationship they've been in, including the one that they're currently in like a multi year relationship with a real human. And they're like, he'll never understand me, like ChatGPT does.
- [125:37]
Leo Laporte
Don't you think this is going to become epidemic? Like this is in the next five years going to be very common. Yeah.
- [125:42]
Benito
And I think it's going to be a social.
- [125:44]
Paris Martineau
I mean, why.
- [125:44]
Leo Laporte
That was the plot of her. Right. He fell in love with his AI.
- [125:48]
Paris Martineau
But I think while there are some benefits in the sense that of course, people are truly lonely, should have something out there to listen to them, even if it just, you know, them screaming into their own reflection. It is problematic when you are given something that has no agency, has no wants or desires other than to just reflect what you want and make you feel happy, it, I think it does give you, by the way, realistic relate.
- [126:16]
Leo Laporte
It doesn't even have that human.
- [126:17]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [126:18]
Leo Laporte
It has no motivation whatsoever.
- [126:20]
Paris Martineau
I'm entirely anthropomorphic metamorphosing. I'm just saying that is what the person is getting out of it.
- [126:24]
Leo Laporte
It's worse.
- [126:25]
Paris Martineau
They are training it to respond in ways that they want. And it gives someone who's already clearly having a tough time understanding human social relationships and even more warped. Distorted and unbalanced understanding of what social dynamics can.
- [126:42]
Leo Laporte
I feel like it will give somebody who has the inclination not to go out and talk to real people a way to not do that. And that is exactly the wrong direction to go. That even. You know, I'm an introvert. I don't. You have to kind of push me out the door. But it's good to get pushed out the door because the other direction, you're not talking to anybody. You might as well talk to a wall. You're literally not interacting. You're talking to a wall. You think it's a wall. You think it's a person, but it's just a wall.
- [127:12]
Jeff Jarvis
It has no sense of meaning.
- [127:13]
Leo Laporte
It has no sense of meaning whatsoever. You might as well talk to the radio, right? We got to take another break. I do have. I'm very interested in what Bill Gross is up to. He's got a new search engine. We're going to talk about that. That is humane.
- [127:26]
Jeff Jarvis
Don't forget about Chromebooks, Neil.
- [127:29]
Leo Laporte
And we have to celebrate because Jeff was at the Google Chromebook event and he has found true love. True love. And it talks to him and he talks it right back. Back. Jeff Jarvis is here. Paris Martineau, I'm glad you're here, too. You're watching Intelligent Machines. This episode brought to you by Outsystems. This is actually a leading AI powered application and agent development platform. And it's very cool. Outsystems been around for a long time. 20 years. They've been doing low code. Right? The mission of Outsystems hasn't changed, though. It's to give every company the power to innovate through software. What has changed is the classic build versus buy conundrum that every IT team faces. Every business faces. We face this. You typically have two choices. Buy off the shelf, existing SaaS, products for speed, right? Because you got it right away. You can have it. You can have it tomorrow. But you lose flexibility, you lose differentiation because everybody else is using it, too. The other option, build custom software. Okay? It's gonna be perfect, perfectly tuned to what you need if it's done right. But it's going to cost you a lot of money. It's going to take a lot of time. That's the build versus buy conundrum. It's a classic business problem, but there's a new way A third way AI forges the way for another path. It's the fusion of AI low code and devsecops automation into a single platform for development. Your teams will build custom applications using AI agents. It's really as easy as buying generic off the shelf sameware. But you get flexibility and by the way, because you're getting it from Outsystems security scalability, they're built right in with AI powered low code teams can build custom future proof applications as fast as buying. But you get fully automated architecture, you get security integrations with all of your, your tech stack, you get data flows, you get permissions. Truth is, Outsystems is the last platform you need to buy because from now on you can use it to build anything and customize and extend even your core systems. It's pretty impressive. Build your future without systems. Visit outsystems.com TWIT to learn more. That's outsystems.com TWITT we thank them so much for supporting intelligent machines. So Bill Gross we've talked to on the show is a serial entrepreneur. I know you know him well, Jeff. He was gonna buy, he bought a tweet deck, remember? And Twitter got so nervous about it.
- [130:12]
Jeff Jarvis
He was going to buy it, he.
- [130:13]
Leo Laporte
Was gonna buy it that they stole it out from under him because they were afraid he was gonna compete. He's always been a little bit of a maverick and I have to give him credit. He's always been looking, looking for startups to create startups that are kind of good for people as well.
- [130:26]
Jeff Jarvis
He started with 150 companies.
- [130:28]
Leo Laporte
150 companies. His newest is Gist and it says AI search backed by hundreds of publications you trust. This is what we were talking about with Richard Gingrich. You can see who the sources are and there's 422 of them. You can turn some off. Turn them on. What should we ask about?
- [130:49]
Jeff Jarvis
Do something. I tried this earlier and I asked about you and Ola. KB was Wikipedia, so.
- [130:53]
Leo Laporte
No, no, it's got to be a current news story. Like what's. Tell me about this jump into the New York election. Ah, New York City election results. Who won and who will run to save your answers? Log in.
- [131:15]
Paris Martineau
Okay, I'm going to log in with Google Network error.
- [131:19]
Leo Laporte
No, that's because I hadn't logged in. Logging in now. Okay, welcome. Leo.
- [131:24]
Richard Gingris
Yes.
- [131:24]
Leo Laporte
Save it. Okay, I gotta do it again. Who won the NYC primary? I should say, right?
- [131:33]
Richard Gingris
Yes.
- [131:33]
Leo Laporte
And who will run in the general. Right. Because that's kind of a question Will Cuomo run or so it's now going out and looking at sources. It does correctly say Mamdani won. He will run in the general against Eric Adams.
- [131:52]
Jeff Jarvis
Intelligencer is 58% of the answer and Forbes is 42% of the answer.
- [131:56]
Leo Laporte
Curtis Sliwa is running and possibly Curtis Lewis always running. Yeah, he keeps running every year.
- [132:02]
Paris Martineau
Has a cat named Gizmo also I.
- [132:03]
Leo Laporte
Do have to handle and he's got.
- [132:05]
Paris Martineau
A nice little one of his 13 cats.
- [132:07]
Leo Laporte
So possibly it says Andrew Cuomo stated he will wait and evaluate some if there's a path for him to run in November as an independent. That's interesting. So it does source it. In fact, I like what they're doing with the footnotes. You can hover over it and actually see the headline.
- [132:22]
Jeff Jarvis
And what's going to happen is if they sold ads on this, they would pay a proportional bit of revenue to the two places on the right.
- [132:31]
Leo Laporte
Okay. Oh, these are the ads. Would be the ads.
- [132:33]
Jeff Jarvis
No, those are the sources.
- [132:35]
Paris Martineau
Those are the places that would get 50.
- [132:37]
Leo Laporte
They would get 58% of the answer came from Nye answer. Yeah, I get it. Okay.
- [132:42]
Jeff Jarvis
And Bill says he has the methodology to do this and so on and so forth. Ask something a little more complex.
- [132:50]
Richard Gingris
Here.
- [132:51]
Leo Laporte
I'll do one that it's got built in. Where do experts think home prices are going? Okay, that's a good one, right? That's complex. Drop 1% year over year, decrease by fourth quarter. Fannie Mae says it'll. So this is good. It's showing here that the sources on the right. All right, so what's the proposal that people use this for news that it's.
- [133:16]
Jeff Jarvis
The ethical search engine. Bill was originally going to start and I haven't talked to them recently. I just got an email from them today about this. But he was originally going to start basically a licensing structure, but instead wants to prove concept by starting an ethical search engine.
- [133:33]
Leo Laporte
So. So I'm trying to think how I would work this into my workflow.
- [133:39]
Jeff Jarvis
I it's going to have by the basis of it, fewer sources.
- [133:44]
Leo Laporte
Right. So what I do is, I mean, but most people don't do this, but I have an RSS feed with all the sources that I care about and I scan them all.
- [133:53]
Jeff Jarvis
All right, give me the latest news in AI. Let's see what that says.
- [133:56]
Leo Laporte
Ah, that's a good one. Okay, what's the latest news in AI? So this might give me a summary of articles. That would be what?
- [134:05]
Richard Gingris
I don't know.
- [134:05]
Jeff Jarvis
Let's see.
- [134:10]
Leo Laporte
There's the Anthropic story.
- [134:12]
Jeff Jarvis
Other recent developments. Chat bots such as.
- [134:15]
Paris Martineau
That's the latest news. AI is great. Why toys are getting pricier as tariffs kick in 12% of the answer.
- [134:28]
Jeff Jarvis
And that's an ad below. Penguin Audio ad by pro.
- [134:30]
Leo Laporte
Ah. Embrace AI. Okay.
- [134:33]
Jeff Jarvis
Is that. I haven't heard of that podcast.
- [134:35]
Paris Martineau
But why is. Why did it use an article from the Boston Globe about toys for 12% of the answer. Where is that?
- [134:45]
Leo Laporte
That's a good question.
- [134:48]
Paris Martineau
How odd.
- [134:49]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [134:50]
Benito
Up above, it's in the shadow libraries of pirated content Tent.
- [134:53]
Paris Martineau
Oh, I bet it's like. Huh.
- [134:57]
Leo Laporte
That's a mistake.
- [134:59]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, right.
- [135:00]
Leo Laporte
That's not in this article. This is. The article's not about anthropic. Yeah, that's. That's okay. We got a fat little bug. And by the way, this Boston Globe article is paywalled.
- [135:14]
Jeff Jarvis
Yep, of course.
- [135:15]
Leo Laporte
And it's an. It's a rip. It's. It even says from the Washington Post. So that's no good. All right. It's G I S T AI if you want to try it out. You went to the Google event, the little Google news.
- [135:34]
Jeff Jarvis
I got my swag here. Oh, admit it. I took swag.
- [135:39]
Leo Laporte
I was searching Chromebook Plus. So they announced this new Chromebook Plus Lenovo 14 Chrome.
- [135:46]
Jeff Jarvis
A Lenovo Chromebook Plus 14.
- [135:48]
Leo Laporte
Is this the first of many or is this the only one?
- [135:51]
Jeff Jarvis
This. Well, they had some cheaper ones there too, but this is the high end one. This is a new high end. So it's built on.
- [135:56]
Leo Laporte
On this page they imply that there will be more. The latest Chromebooks.
- [136:01]
Jeff Jarvis
They had other Chromebook pluses, but this is the high end one.
- [136:04]
Leo Laporte
Right. This one's pretty impressive for about 800 bucks, 750 bucks.
- [136:09]
Jeff Jarvis
It's built on a MediaTek Companiono Ultra. So it's an ARM and it's the first high end. That is fan left.
- [136:16]
Richard Gingris
Yay.
- [136:17]
Leo Laporte
And they say 17 hours of battery life. It's an OLED screen. A 14 inch OLED screen, which is pretty impressive. Lenovo's done that before with other Chromebooks.
- [136:27]
Jeff Jarvis
Two and a half pounds. Little tiny bit.
- [136:29]
Leo Laporte
Oh, that's nice. That's light.
- [136:30]
Jeff Jarvis
Half inch. And the important thing about this is the reason it fits on an AI show. Besides I want a review unit. So is that it'll do two things that other even other Chromebook pluses will not do. Because it has this chip.
- [136:45]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. One is this chip has AI capability.
- [136:48]
Jeff Jarvis
Smart grouping, intelligent. Understands that organizes your open tabs and documents into logical groups and then also AI image editing in the gallery app. So it'll do all the fancy photo stuff locally it does on the machine. And then I could care less about this one custom wallpaper I did briefly in the at the event, but not enough.
- [137:09]
Leo Laporte
So there the Samsung is selling also Chromebook Plus plus running on an intel i3. If you didn't want the ARM process.
- [137:17]
Jeff Jarvis
That'S what I have. And that's the one with the numerical Chromebook.
- [137:21]
Leo Laporte
Oh yeah. And here's Google's own duet. They didn't announce a new Google Chromebook, did they?
- [137:25]
Jeff Jarvis
No, no, no, no, no.
- [137:27]
Leo Laporte
So really this is all about. This is all about the new one from Lenovo.
- [137:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, yeah. And then they announced some other things that are generally true to Chromebook pluses. You can get instant answers with select to search with Lens. You can get things done faster with text capture, which means that if you had an image that talked about an event and the text was an image, you could select that and it would know that this is an event and ask you appropriately, do you want to put this in your calendar? And it would parse the text in.
- [137:57]
Leo Laporte
The image and I presume it's going to have Gemini on it and all that, right?
- [138:00]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. And you get a free year of all the hoo. Ha.
- [138:03]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. Plus two terabytes of storage. It has built in 256 gigs of storage. It says, you know, that's a pretty good price for a fairly. It is capable of. We don't know much about this MediaTek processor, but I've heard reports that it's a good processor. That it's. It's. Finally there's something coming along besides.
- [138:25]
Jeff Jarvis
Explain to me, Leo, ARM is not a brand. It is a what.
- [138:30]
Leo Laporte
It's an architecture. Okay.
- [138:32]
Jeff Jarvis
So.
- [138:33]
Leo Laporte
But it is a company. So the history of ARM was. It was started by Apple back in the Newton days along with other partners including I think the BBC Micro. And they wanted a very low power chip that they could put in the Newton with some capabilities. Apple did divest of arm, but the ARM architecture it continues to license and is the architecture behind all of this. Apple's processors for the iPhone and the Mac. It's also been licensed by intel, although intel doesn't really have much to show in the ARM space. And of course Qualcomm makes ARM processors.
- [139:08]
Jeff Jarvis
This is why this has 17 hours battery and fanless.
- [139:11]
Leo Laporte
Yes. Yeah.
- [139:13]
Jeff Jarvis
Waiting for.
- [139:13]
Benito
Are they integrated memory? Is all the. Is it the same as like Macs? Is the memory integrated and all that stuff or no. Is it still.
- [139:19]
Leo Laporte
I bet it's not that's expensive to do and makes a big SoC, so I'm going to guess not. It's got 16 gigs of RAM SoC. What's SoC system on a chip? So.
- [139:30]
Jeff Jarvis
Oh, thank you.
- [139:31]
Leo Laporte
One of the reasons Apple has this kind of advantage with especially with AI is the RAM normally on a PC is in a separate chips. You've got your processor, you might have another processor for graphics and you have RAM chips and the data has to move along this bus, which is relatively slow. Apple and by the way game machines have done this for you, puts it all in one giant die and it's like it's on the same chip. It's not quite, but it's on the same physical die and so the interconnects are much faster. So having unified RAM is a very legit way of not only speeding up machines but and this is what's interesting with AI giving AI access to the entire ram. Normally on a PC the AI is using the memory and the graphics processor and that is very expensive. If you were going to get a 96 gigabyte Mac, that'd be a lot cheaper than Nvidia GPU with 96 gigabytes and you know it's comparably fast. So putting it on the system on a chip. This is by the way the way most computer architectures are moving the idea of getting more and more of those components integrated into a single die. A single system has real advantages. It's cheaper to make, it's faster.
- [140:46]
Benito
All the modern Macs are built this way and that's why they're so fast.
- [140:48]
Leo Laporte
That's right, that's right. That was the big selling point on the Mac. Now the Mac doesn't have Nvidia, it doesn't support at all discrete graphics. So it has to make a virtue out of a necessity.
- [141:02]
Jeff Jarvis
So that's my very brief report.
- [141:04]
Leo Laporte
Thank you for that. Yeah. Are you going to buy one? You're going to or try to get one?
- [141:08]
Jeff Jarvis
I'd like to get a review unit to see. I have this Samsung now. Wow.
- [141:13]
Leo Laporte
I'm very curious about performance again because this is such an unknown processor. MediaTek is, you know, historically been kind of a second tier processor company but I've heard a lot of good things about it as an up and coming processor. It's their flagship SoC 8 cores, 1 arm cortex running at 3.62 gigahertz, 3 arm x4s 4x. So it's doing the other thing that Apple does and now everybody's doing is performance and efficiency cores. This is a 3 nanometer process. That is the, you know, that is a state of the art TSMC process. So that usually the smaller the process, the better the chip. The faster the chip and the lower the power. Has an arm Immortalis GPU. I've never heard of that branding. Yeah, it supports DDR5 RAM, so I suspect that's what you're going to get on the.
- [142:19]
Jeff Jarvis
They come to say it was up to 50 tops, but I have no idea.
- [142:21]
Leo Laporte
Oh, this is the first device in it with it. Yeah, 50 tops is good. That's that. That competes well with the Snapdragon. I will see. I don't know, I'm looking and seeing if you know anybody like LTT or somebody has done a review of it, but I don't see, I don't see, I see. Here's a Reddit.
- [142:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Got to meet the Chromebook unboxed guy there, which made me thank him because I watch his stuff all the time.
- [142:46]
Leo Laporte
This overkill chip opens the door to enhanced Gemini on Chromebook. It's essentially the Dimensity 9400 flagship with a few changes.
- [142:58]
Jeff Jarvis
I think people know this stuff.
- [143:00]
Leo Laporte
Oh, I love geeks. I love geeks. It's interesting that they decided not to go with Qualcomm. I'm kind of surprised. Anyway, so ARM doesn't make chips. They don't have a fab. They're a design company and they license their architecture to other companies, basically.
- [143:17]
Jeff Jarvis
By the way, I think Craig Newmark says that he prefers nerd to geek.
- [143:24]
Leo Laporte
Craig is wrong. I know why he does. Because a geek is traditionally the guy who bites the head off a chicken.
- [143:31]
Richard Gingris
Right.
- [143:32]
Leo Laporte
So it's kind of icky.
- [143:33]
Paris Martineau
Please explain.
- [143:34]
Jeff Jarvis
More like a carnival, a carnival geek.
- [143:38]
Leo Laporte
Did you see there was a movie.
- [143:41]
Paris Martineau
Biting heads off chickens?
- [143:43]
Leo Laporte
Well, people would pay money, good money to see it. The geek was somebody. He was like a wife.
- [143:47]
Paris Martineau
Were people really that bored?
- [143:48]
Leo Laporte
Back in the day, entertainment has come a long way. There was a movie, I'm trying to remember, they remade a classic 50s movie.
- [143:59]
Paris Martineau
One bite. Or would there be gnawing happening?
- [144:03]
Leo Laporte
He lives. They put him in a cage.
- [144:05]
Benito
The world was very different.
- [144:07]
Leo Laporte
This, this was a normal human being.
- [144:09]
Paris Martineau
I'm just wondering, like, do you have to sharpen your teeth? Do they have like incredible jaw strength?
- [144:15]
Leo Laporte
No, no, no.
- [144:16]
Paris Martineau
There are bones. Chicken's ne. Let me explain being able to do one bite.
- [144:21]
Leo Laporte
You understand that if you go to a carnival, you might see the bearded lady, the tattooed lady. One of the things you might see at a carnival is like the wild man. You probably heard that the Wild man of Borneo, right, is a sadly degraded human, often a drug addict, who for money or drugs, has agreed to live in a cage in kind of squalor. And to impress the rubes, they throw a live chicken in there, pretending that's his perplexity.
- [144:52]
Jeff Jarvis
The geek, often described as a desperate or marginalized individual, would be Nightmare Alley, a small arena or pit with live chickens. The performance involved the geek chasing, catching and then biting off the head of a live chicken, sometimes swallowing it, and often drinking the blood as part of the act.
- [145:09]
Paris Martineau
Okay, this hasn't answered my core question. Is it one bite or is it a gnawing action?
- [145:14]
Leo Laporte
They're not. Well, they're trying to give the impression that the geek lives on these live chickens. The geek doesn't, but for the rubes, he goes and bites the head off the chicken. The rubes go. And then they close the curtain and they give him some food. See the movie Nightmare Alley, which is actually a Fairly. The original 1947 film noir with Tyrone Power was incredible. You should absolutely see that. First they remade it in 2021. I thought it was okay. Clay Blanchett stars along with Bradley Cooper.
- [145:50]
Jeff Jarvis
Bradley Cooper bite ahead off a chicken?
- [145:54]
Leo Laporte
No, but there is a very graphic geek scene. You will learn all you ever wanted to know about a geek. Anyway, my opinion, the nerd is. Implies as somebody who is socially inept. And by the way, Craig might think of himself as both a geek and a nerd, but it's normally somebody who's socially inept.
- [146:16]
Benito
No, nerd is someone who's smart. Nerd always has something to do with someone who knows about them. No, that's nerd.
- [146:21]
Jeff Jarvis
No, that's the nerd that.
- [146:23]
Paris Martineau
Like nerd. Both nerd and geek imply some sort of specialized technical knowledge. Geek in some way, to me implies like usage of tools in an interesting way, via nerd intrinsically implies to me specialized knowledge in one of many fields.
- [146:43]
Benito
No, that's geek. Nerd is intellectual.
- [146:46]
Jeff Jarvis
Nerd is primarily associated with intense interest and expertise in academic or intellectual pursuits such as math and science.
- [146:52]
Benito
Bam.
- [146:53]
Leo Laporte
Often socially awkward or introverted for special.
- [146:57]
Jeff Jarvis
Specific hobbies, interests or subcultures which can include.
- [147:01]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, really, they're kind of interchangeable. I prefer geek because nerd implies some sort of social awkwardness. And a geek merely to me says you're passionate in particular about technology in our. In our sphere. So I've always called our listeners and myself a geek because I'm really interested in technology. No, see, dweeb is more like nerds. Dweeb is a. Is pejorative. It's like you're a dweeb. You're a nerd, you're socially awkward, you're inept, you're. You're an outcast. Right. Geek does not imply that to me. Geek implies that you're just really good at technology and complexity says that.
- [147:37]
Jeff Jarvis
Nerd, for example, is someone who spends weekends reading about quantum physics or programming for fun. A geek is someone who attends comic conventions or builds custom gaming PCs.
- [147:48]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [147:49]
Paris Martineau
See, I agree with that. I agree with that.
- [147:51]
Jeff Jarvis
Leo's both.
- [147:53]
Leo Laporte
My definition One was if you're. If you're a geek in high school, you're somebody who cares much more about what goes on above the neck than below the bell.
- [148:03]
Paris Martineau
Can you ask your LLM of choice if we're considered geeks or nerds if we regularly spend three hours a week talking about AI for a live stream podcast?
- [148:15]
Leo Laporte
Yes, I can.
- [148:21]
Paris Martineau
I think it will just say neither. You're a podcaster.
- [148:25]
Leo Laporte
Given what you know about me and my habits and the fact that I sit in front of a microphone hours a day talking about technology, would you say I'm more likely to be considered a geek or a nerd?
- [148:38]
Benito
There's a pretty good Venn diagram in chat right now.
- [148:43]
Leo Laporte
All right, let's go look.
- [148:44]
Jeff Jarvis
Perplexity says you're either a geek or a nerd, but not a door weep.
- [148:48]
Leo Laporte
Given your habits, spending hours in front of a microphone discussing technology, staying current with tech trends, and engaging deeply with digital tools, you fit the classic profile of both a geek and a nerd, but with a subtle distinction. Cop out answer is typically someone who.
- [149:04]
Benito
Is passionately enthusiastic about specific topics, especially.
- [149:08]
Leo Laporte
Technology, gadgets, or pop culture, and loves sharing that enthusiasm with others.
- [149:13]
Benito
Geeks are often seen as social within.
- [149:15]
Leo Laporte
Their interest areas, sometimes even evangelizing their favorite tech. A nerd, on the other hand, is.
- [149:22]
Benito
Usually defined by deep intellectual curiosity and.
- [149:25]
Leo Laporte
Expertise, often with an academic or analytical bent. Nerds may be more introverted, focusing intensely on learning, research or mastery. Brain mode. Based on your habits, publicly talking about technology, likely podcasting or broadcasting, and embracing the latest tools, you're more likely to be seen as a geek. Geeks are known for their outward enthusiasm.
- [149:49]
Benito
And community engagement around their passions, which.
- [149:52]
Leo Laporte
Matches the act of sharing knowledge and excitement about tech on air. See, I think that's exactly how I put it.
- [149:58]
Paris Martineau
Someone right.
- [149:59]
Leo Laporte
This Venn diagram is pretty good.
- [150:01]
Paris Martineau
I think that's someone in the chat asked chatgpt. I want a new, possibly made up word that is loving towards a nerd. Geek or tweet Weeb without the social stigma. And here's what the Beth, the big and beautiful brain of chat GBT said.
- [150:16]
Leo Laporte
You are the evil clown of Middletown.
- [150:20]
Paris Martineau
First one, you're gonna like this. Norble. A soft squishy word that feels like a hug. You adorable little snorable. Always quoting Star Trek.
- [150:32]
Leo Laporte
Not bad.
- [150:33]
Paris Martineau
It's terrible, Leo. It's terrible.
- [150:37]
Leo Laporte
Quibbins A what?
- [150:43]
Paris Martineau
Three Navy.
- [150:47]
Leo Laporte
Newbie and lovey.
- [150:48]
Paris Martineau
So newbie newie Glintal from Gleam and.
- [150:55]
Jeff Jarvis
Sex part we didn't know we had.
- [150:57]
Paris Martineau
My Glintel figured out the plot twist before the show even hinted it. It says as I like this next one.
- [151:04]
Leo Laporte
This is my favorite.
- [151:05]
Paris Martineau
5 is dorkling but that's just. That's pretty much a word and six whiz bit which I guess is the best of the bunch but that's not saying much is from wizard. And bit. The example sentence is that's my whiz bit. Always casting spells with spreadsheets.
- [151:27]
Leo Laporte
I think we have enough words for these kinds of people. I consider myself a good geek because I am not an intro. I'm not an. You know, I'm not socially inept. I'm not closed in. But I'm an intellectual. I. I think I like. I mean I do think about stuff and I talk about. But I like.
- [151:45]
Paris Martineau
You do. I don't think about anything. It's just empty void in there.
- [151:50]
Leo Laporte
Do you think about quantum physics though?
- [151:53]
Paris Martineau
Not when I'm not reading Heimer. I have been thinking about. About string theory program in common lisp.
- [151:59]
Leo Laporte
In your spare time. Do you ever shave? So but that's interesting that Craig who I think is socially kind of inept. Yes.
- [152:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Well no, he. He contends he is.
- [152:12]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [152:13]
Jeff Jarvis
That's his argument.
- [152:14]
Leo Laporte
I think he might be a nerd.
- [152:16]
Paris Martineau
Craig has a lot of. There's definitely over hotel grade pancake and waffle makers and I think that makes him a social butterfly.
- [152:23]
Leo Laporte
He says he doesn't own any me.
- [152:25]
Jeff Jarvis
No, he doesn't.
- [152:26]
Leo Laporte
I thought he just takes pictures of him at the.
- [152:29]
Paris Martineau
He takes pictures so often we've been. I thought we've been spreading. I've. I've said that fact to like three people.
- [152:37]
Leo Laporte
This is how these things start.
- [152:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Sorry you're as bad as AI.
- [152:42]
Leo Laporte
All right, we're gonna take a. I do think about ancient Rome every day. We're gonna take a break and when we come back picks of the week.
- [152:49]
Jeff Jarvis
I think about Gutenberg every day.
- [152:51]
Leo Laporte
Do you really?
- [152:52]
Paris Martineau
Well, yeah.
- [152:53]
Leo Laporte
Schmid, Hubel, Huber, Schmidt. Huber. Excuse you I just like saying Jurgen Schmidhuber.
- [153:02]
Jeff Jarvis
Don't you got to get the umlaut in that? No, that's more Swedish.
- [153:12]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. There are picks of the week coming up next. You're watching Intelligent Machines. Jeff Jarvis, Paris Martineau. We're glad you're here and we hope you will consider if you enjoy this show, showing your support by joining Club Twit. What do you get? Ad free versions of this show and every show. We do lots of shows that we don't do in public. In fact, I wanted to tell the world to stay tuned because after this show, our own Scott Wilkinson in the club will do his regular Q and A on home theater. So if you're in the club, you go into the Discord and you can. It's got W will be talking directly to the Discord for his home theater geek show. And we're doing a very geeky, nerdy thing on Friday. We're bringing back Stephen Witt. Remember, he was on talking about AI a couple of weeks ago, but I noticed when we interviewed him he'd also written a book about how music got free, about digital music, about the creations of the MP3, about Napster and music piracy and how it affect the music industry. And I really wanted to talk about that. So we're bringing Steven Witt back. He was a great guest on this show. He'll be joining us Friday, June 27th at noon Pacific, 3pm Eastern. But that again is club only. We'll stream it live, but club only after the fact. And then I thought, well, this would be a great time to have one of my best friends. He's a vinyl expert. He's a collector of vinyl records. Now that's nerdy. He runs a YouTube channel called Mazzy's Music. Norman Maslov. So we're going to have back to back talking about music and how music has changed and then how it's not changed. This Friday, that's again, club only. We have our AI users group a week from Friday. That's going to be fantastic. Always good stuff going on there. Chris Marquardt's photo thing. We're still working on booking Stacy Higginbotham for book club Micah's Crafting Corner coming up. The club is a great place to hang out in the Discord to watch the shows and most of all to show your support for what we do. If you'd like to join, I'd love to have you go to Twit TV Club Twit to learn more Twit TV Club Twit And I think we still have the two week free trial. So if you're at all skeptical or you just want to watch those shows and not pay for it, go right now. Twit TV club Twit. Righty. Time for our picks of the week. Let's kick things off with Paris Martineau.
- [155:48]
Paris Martineau
I've got a very leo targeted pic which a a video of Google veo generated sinkhole videos came across my feed.
- [155:58]
Leo Laporte
And I is for both of us. It's for you and for me.
- [156:01]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, it's for both of us. I think that's terrible. You got to listen with the sound though.
- [156:07]
Leo Laporte
Oh, wait a minute. This is. This is. Yeah, I'll turn on the sound.
- [156:10]
Jeff Jarvis
Describe to people there's a sinkhole on.
- [156:12]
Paris Martineau
4Th street which unfortunately has already taken the lives of two individuals. There is a sinkhole. Then a person on a bike. Complete. Completely swallowed by the another one. Today we're looking at the city's ongoing.
- [156:27]
Jeff Jarvis
Efforts to repair crumbling infrastructure.
- [156:30]
Leo Laporte
But as you can see, an old man than others are urging residents to.
- [156:36]
Paris Martineau
Avoid the area in time. As you can see behind me.
- [156:42]
Richard Gingris
Street.
- [156:42]
Leo Laporte
Examining the city's efforts to address critical infrastructure issues.
- [156:46]
Paris Martineau
A woman doing a full back from the sinkhole back into the sinkhole.
- [156:50]
Leo Laporte
Oh, so these are brilliant. These are all AI generated is a.
- [156:55]
Paris Martineau
Word, is a word you could use. They are very funny.
- [156:58]
Leo Laporte
They're hysterical.
- [156:59]
Paris Martineau
They're hysterical. I just saw it and thought of you because I know that you love VO videos.
- [157:04]
Leo Laporte
Well, it's obviously when I see something like this, I think, oh, that's per somebody who spent a week prompting reprompting. Reprompting, reprompting to get those. And the humor comes from the human, not the AI. Nevertheless, that's not great. That is very good.
- [157:20]
Paris Martineau
It's pretty good.
- [157:21]
Leo Laporte
I can watch that for hours and somebody has 1.4 million views on X.
- [157:26]
Paris Martineau
A lot of people have watched it for hours. My other pick is I'm stealing a photo from Jeff. But I was also there. I visited. I think we chatted about this before the show. I visited Salt Hanks this weekend which was popping and I just wanted to recommend that anybody in the tri state area, I'm pretty proud of that.
- [157:44]
Leo Laporte
That's a great photo.
- [157:45]
Paris Martineau
It has such a good photo. The composition is great. Jeff took a bunch of photos that put my iPhone to shame because then I went in and took photos as well. Whatever phone, your Android phone you're using, Jeff, it takes great photos.
- [157:57]
Jeff Jarvis
The six. The old six.
- [158:00]
Leo Laporte
Can I show you what I did with it in AI go off my screen for a second because I don't want to show all my photos. But I. I fed it to. I think I fed it to chatgpt or Perplexity. I'm not sure. And asked it to cartoonize it, and I think it did a pretty good job.
- [158:19]
Paris Martineau
So cute.
- [158:21]
Leo Laporte
Oh, isn't that cute? It's really the same picture. Yeah. The only thing it got wrong is it. It didn't put Salt Hank on his hat. So I said, hey, can you make the hat say Salt Hank? And it fixed it perfectly.
- [158:35]
Paris Martineau
Yeah. It also messed up the prices, but that's all right.
- [158:37]
Leo Laporte
That's actually good. I didn't want anybody to see the prices.
- [158:40]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, they're a bit expensive. Yeah. But so Jeff had originally gone for, I think, actually opening day and sent our little. Yeah, thank you machine. Group chat.
- [158:49]
Jeff Jarvis
There was. There was a line.
- [158:51]
Paris Martineau
The huge line.
- [158:52]
Jeff Jarvis
Line was down the street, and Salt Tax is right next to the famous John's Pizzeria. And they had their own little barrier there.
- [159:00]
Leo Laporte
And I love it because he's taking advantage of the existing barriers.
- [159:05]
Jeff Jarvis
But look at. Look at here, because in front of the barrier, there's four people. That's the entire line for John's. Hank's line is going all the way down the block.
- [159:13]
Paris Martineau
So this fantastic.
- [159:14]
Leo Laporte
The person. People with the suitcase, they're waiting for John's.
- [159:16]
Jeff Jarvis
They're waiting for John's.
- [159:18]
Leo Laporte
And then the people on the right going down the block that's waiting to get to Salt Hanks or for Salt Hanks, Bleaker at Jones street in the West Village.
- [159:25]
Paris Martineau
I came by the next day because my mother was in town visiting. And so we were walking around there, and I said, we got to stop at the Salt Hanks. It was early, like, right at the open, so there wasn't a line yet. But I walk in, and even though it wasn't that busy, there was Hank sitting there with some woman who'd brought in his cookbook for him to sign, surrounded by people with cameras. I couldn't even get a word. And I ended up talking to a friend of his. I never didn't get his name, but I think it's some friend of his from Michigan that now lives in California that Hank had flown out just for the opening shirt was like, work for this. And he was like, it's crazy. The New York Times was here yesterday. It just seemed like. Like a great crew of people, and everybody was really.
- [160:05]
Leo Laporte
I'm very proud of my boy. He's. He's exceeded his. His Pop for sure.
- [160:11]
Jeff Jarvis
Is he exhausted?
- [160:13]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, but he's enjoying it. He said yes. It's funny. Yeah. He said, now I feel like I'm a real cook now. Because, you know, he was a. He was a celebrity. He was an influencer cook. He wasn't a real cook. And he said, I really should have done this before I started the TikTok channel because I didn't know what it took, but now I do. And so he feels like, yeah, now I'm really a chef. He's really loving it. He's really loving it. And it's been very affirming for him, of course, because it's Salt Hanks. Right. It's got his name on it. Yeah.
- [160:43]
Paris Martineau
My last thing is I am crowdsourcing potential recommendations for where I should go on a one to two week road trip next month because I officially have gotten a new job.
- [160:58]
Leo Laporte
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You barely buried the league there.
- [161:03]
Paris Martineau
I did bury the lead. I can't announce what it is yet publicly, but I do start at the end of July. I can tell you guys it's a great. I'll tell you, it's gonna be. It's a great job.
- [161:12]
Leo Laporte
So happy for you.
- [161:13]
Paris Martineau
I'm incredibly happy for me too. I'm also incredibly happy that I don't start till end of July.
- [161:18]
Leo Laporte
So you got a two week vacation.
- [161:20]
Paris Martineau
I got quite a few weeks. And I want to do something. I think I want to go on like a little solo road trip. I've never.
- [161:25]
Leo Laporte
Not enough to see the evil clown of Middletown. You want more?
- [161:28]
Paris Martineau
I mean, mean, I do. I'm greedy. I want to see the evil to clowns all around the US But I think what I might do is I think I might fly to either SF or Seattle and then spend like a week or so, maybe more, going between the two and like going on various hikes and visits, kind of the Pacific Northwest and NorCal. I'm also open to other ideas.
- [161:52]
Jeff Jarvis
I've always wanted to do a train.
- [161:53]
Leo Laporte
Across Canada, take you to our best, best restaurant in town.
- [161:57]
Paris Martineau
I will say the petaluma of it all was kind of interesting. I was like, huh? I could drive.
- [162:01]
Leo Laporte
Oh, we would love to see people in there.
- [162:03]
Paris Martineau
But if anybody has any recommendations of like, cool hikes in the day, I just. All I know is that what I want to do on this trip is I want to hike the redwoods and I also want to visit the towns where Twin Peaks was filmed. And I feel like I can fill in the rest while I'm there.
- [162:16]
Leo Laporte
If you flew to. If you flew to San Francisco, came to visit us because it's on. It's on the. It's north.
- [162:23]
Paris Martineau
Yeah.
- [162:23]
Leo Laporte
And you know, rent a car and kept driving up the coast. You would see.
- [162:28]
Paris Martineau
Actually, I know. That's what I was thinking is I could kind of see a little bit of everything.
- [162:31]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [162:32]
Paris Martineau
I want to go to maybe the till. What's it called? Tillamook Cheese factory.
- [162:36]
Leo Laporte
Okay, go to the Tillamook Cheese Factory.
- [162:38]
Paris Martineau
I want to go in Porto.
- [162:39]
Leo Laporte
What you want to do? Okay.
- [162:41]
Paris Martineau
I don't know. It just was on the way there. I enjoy cheese. I. I haven't done any research yet.
- [162:45]
Jeff Jarvis
Showtime.
- [162:46]
Leo Laporte
We have some good cheese.
- [162:47]
Paris Martineau
Floyd, this is my call to the wild. If anybody.
- [162:50]
Leo Laporte
And we have a few things on.
- [162:52]
Paris Martineau
That coast that are nice to do, let me know.
- [162:54]
Leo Laporte
There's one. Well, and the problem is south of us is Big Sur, which you would love driving through. There's Hurst Castle south of us too, is amazing.
- [163:03]
Jeff Jarvis
I'd never have been to.
- [163:04]
Benito
You could just drive up one down or up.
- [163:06]
Paris Martineau
I mean, that's the thing is I. My current.
- [163:08]
Leo Laporte
Maybe start in la.
- [163:11]
Jeff Jarvis
I can't go south on one because of the bridges. You're on the edge.
- [163:17]
Leo Laporte
But it's a. You could. Could Paris. You'd love it. And it's beautiful. And you'd see redwoods, but you also see Big Sur, which is like nothing else in the country.
- [163:28]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, it is amazing.
- [163:29]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, it's well worth seeing. Hearst Castle is incredible.
- [163:33]
Paris Martineau
What is it? Just a castle.
- [163:34]
Leo Laporte
So William Randolph Hearst, when he was the. You should see it because he was the press mogul. He created yellow journalism.
- [163:40]
Benito
Citizen Kane.
- [163:42]
Leo Laporte
He's Citizen Kane. And he built his is Xanadu, as they call it in Citizen Kane, near Santa Barbara. It's on the California coast. It's incredible. The Hearst estate gave it to the state of California, so they run it as a kind of museum slash place.
- [164:01]
Jeff Jarvis
The family still has some property there, I think.
- [164:03]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, I've been to the Hearst. I was friends in my youth with William Randolph Hearst iii. They kept the horse ranch. So he's got Arabians right next to it. I've ridden horses through Hearst Castle because they still have rights to ride the horses around. So. Yeah, he still has a big Arabian ranch there. Yeah, they. Yeah. The Hearst Corporation owns a lot of stuff. California. They are just as important as they ever were, I think. But you should see it because of the history.
- [164:33]
Paris Martineau
That's the first castle right now. That's crazy.
- [164:36]
Leo Laporte
You'd be seeing the Original press mogul, you know. And he's got this big long table in the middle and it's got ketchup on it, and it's great. It's hysterical.
- [164:44]
Jeff Jarvis
You watched Citizen Kane, I assume?
- [164:47]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, of course.
- [164:49]
Leo Laporte
And then you could do Big Sur, because you could go north from there. You do Big Sur?
- [164:53]
Paris Martineau
Big Sur. I know that from my computer.
- [164:55]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, you would. Beautiful. You could see. You could see.
- [165:00]
Benito
You can go to Clark.
- [165:02]
Leo Laporte
Monterey Bay Aquarium is great there.
- [165:05]
Paris Martineau
Yeah. I mean, I think there's like a million different things to do. I'm kind of excited.
- [165:09]
Benito
You've never been to California, then? Yes. There's a ton of things.
- [165:11]
Paris Martineau
I mean, I was in California from years, like, zero to eight, but that doesn't really count. The only other times I've been to California.
- [165:17]
Leo Laporte
You want to see la? You should go see LA, too. You should.
- [165:19]
Paris Martineau
I don't. LA isn't strong on my list, to be honest. Nor is, frankly, the city of San Francisco, which I'm there often. I'm more interested.
- [165:27]
Leo Laporte
All right.
- [165:27]
Paris Martineau
Big, beautiful vistas.
- [165:29]
Leo Laporte
Like, we'll start in San Francisco and go north.
- [165:31]
Paris Martineau
Weird things. Or like inter. Like Hurst Castle. Definitely something.
- [165:36]
Jeff Jarvis
Wine country is wonderful.
- [165:38]
Paris Martineau
Wine country. Fantastic.
- [165:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Taking a glider after you've had enough wine.
- [165:42]
Benito
Or balloons.
- [165:44]
Leo Laporte
I did that in Calistoga.
- [165:46]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [165:47]
Leo Laporte
And my wife at the time. I'm getting in, and she said, are you insured? I said, no. Bye. And it was actually a bad time to go. It was the last flight of the day before they canceled due to heavy winds.
- [166:03]
Paris Martineau
So it's just like the Soarin exhibit at Disneyland, right?
- [166:07]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, just like that. A little bumpier, but anyway. Huh? Oh, the mud baths are great. Go to. Wait, really? Oh.
- [166:17]
Paris Martineau
What is it?
- [166:17]
Leo Laporte
But there's only one place to go if you go to a mud bath. It's Indian Springs, the original resort. Because a lot. So there's kind of an upscale one called Solage, where they give you a little container of mud and you're supposed to rub it on yourself. That is not a mud bath. If you go to Indian Springs, you get in these 1920s tiled tubs that are filled with volcanic mud, and the attendant comes over with a shovel, covers the rest of you. You sink down to it. It's very warm. The farther down you go. That's where this. It's heated by the. The. So this is a volcanic area. So it's heated by the underground. What do they call it? Steam. So it could be very hot when you go. But as you dig down into the mud. But it's Fun. And you lie there for a half hour, and you get enervated, and then they hose you down. It's kind of. It's kind of. It's a little intimate. Anyway, they hose you down, and then you get a massage, and you get. You get a. What they call a blanket wrap, and. Oh, it's wonderful. And then they have a pool that's heated by the springs. That's incredible.
- [167:26]
Paris Martineau
Sounds delightful. You said Indian Springs?
- [167:28]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. I'll send. You know, I'll send you a list of things that would be fun for you to do, but you got to come see us, and we will take you to the best restaurant in town.
- [167:36]
Paris Martineau
All right. I'll add to that.
- [167:38]
Jeff Jarvis
What is that restaurant?
- [167:39]
Leo Laporte
Well, it used to be Table Culture Provisions. They're going for their Michelin Star. And they will get it. They're very, very good. But it's a little Frou frou. There's a guy from France who had a restaurant in San Francisco, but he's come to Petaluma. He loves Petaluma. He's. He grew up in France, and he makes his favorite French dishes. And they're. It's called Brigitte Bistro. It's a bistro. And they're sloppy. They're not, you know, tcp. It's like tweezers stuff. Right. This one is like. He's. You come in, and Nick, the chef goes, hey, it's good to see you. How are you? If you can make it for gelato July 14th, you'll be there for Bastille Day. Oh, and they have a lot of fun on Bastille Day. Oh, I bet. It's so much fun. And we go there every other week because we love it so much. They have incredible food.
- [168:25]
Jeff Jarvis
Escargot and marrow bone.
- [168:28]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, the marrow is incredible.
- [168:30]
Jeff Jarvis
Salmon gravlocks au a groom.
- [168:33]
Leo Laporte
The coquis Jacques. Their scallops are the best I've ever had. Their dauphinois. They. Their scalloped potatoes are amazing. Are we still doing a show?
- [168:41]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, kind of.
- [168:42]
Paris Martineau
Yeah. You're watching Intelligent Mission. Oh, my God.
- [168:46]
Leo Laporte
Where do we go? We. You can edit this all out. I'm sorry. Oh, my God. I've completely lost track of that time.
- [168:55]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [168:55]
Leo Laporte
The Lyonnaise stuff is great, but they also have specials. Some of the best food I've ever eaten. And the dessert that you have to have is called Il Flotant, which is a meringue floating in caramel with cashews. It's unbelievable. You'll think you've died and gone to heaven. And Nick is amazing. He's a. He's really wonderful guy.
- [169:16]
Jeff Jarvis
Humboldt Fog goat cheese.
- [169:18]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's. Well, that's what I was gonna say. There's a lot of cheese manufacturing.
- [169:22]
Paris Martineau
I mean, that's the thing is I want to go to all the cheese places. I could. I go to a whole subsection of the.
- [169:28]
Leo Laporte
We have some of the. Very, very famous. Very good.
- [169:32]
Paris Martineau
The last time I went to Point Reyes, all the tea shops were closed and I was so mad.
- [169:38]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. Point Reyes is the one. Yeah. That's where some of the best cheese in the world is made. Yeah. Okay. Well, you know where you want to go. Point raise is nice. If you've been there, you. You've done.
- [169:48]
Paris Martineau
I mean, I was there for only a couple of. I timed it wrong. It was like late in the Sunday. At some point where the sun was setting, I messed it up. I need to go again.
- [169:58]
Leo Laporte
I will send you some recommendations, but. But I can go on and on and on as I obviously have.
- [170:04]
Paris Martineau
I mean, you're the perfect person to ask.
- [170:05]
Leo Laporte
I want to give you something that you can listen to as you go on your road trip. Are you ready? This is called Wiki radio. It is random. I love this audio from Wikipedia. So you know there's audio on Wikipedia. All of it is public domain. And you just press the button. It's always weird.
- [170:30]
Paris Martineau
Oh yeah.
- [170:31]
Leo Laporte
It only goes for a little while. You see the little bar there? So that's pretty good. But you're gonna get music.
- [170:50]
Paris Martineau
This is great. This is huge.
- [170:52]
Benito
Spoken Wiki news article from Wiki news.org, the free news source recorded by Neil Carmichael.
- [170:58]
Leo Laporte
Block of Flax collapses and Aleppo killing 11. You'll never stop. I could play this on the piano, by the way. Do it. I don't have a piano here.
- [171:24]
Paris Martineau
You gotta get one little tiny keyboard.
- [171:26]
Leo Laporte
Anyway, highly recommend it. It's from Monkey on. And apparently he does lots of things like this. I just love. So I used to, when I was a kid, do shortwave radio. And that's exactly what it sounds like. You just tune down the dial and you don't know what you're gonna get. It's weird stuff. So that's my pick of the week. Just. Jeff, you've got something I think you would like. This sounds good.
- [171:56]
Richard Gingris
What?
- [171:57]
Leo Laporte
I don't know. Whatever you pick.
- [171:59]
Jeff Jarvis
I don't have much.
- [172:00]
Leo Laporte
I like all of your picks.
- [172:02]
Richard Gingris
All right.
- [172:03]
Jeff Jarvis
We can do the tennis robot.
- [172:04]
Leo Laporte
Tennis robot. It is world's first tennis robot.
- [172:09]
Richard Gingris
And actually play tennis and practice with the tennis robot.
- [172:13]
Jeff Jarvis
So it volleys with you and catches your ball.
- [172:18]
Leo Laporte
That's amazing.
- [172:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Spits a ball back at you.
- [172:20]
Leo Laporte
Oh, that's pretty. It doesn't look. It looks like it's not hitting it too hard though, Right?
- [172:25]
Paris Martineau
Looks like particularly fast.
- [172:27]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. See how lobby they are? But I guess it's good practice.
- [172:32]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah. And you don't have to pick up all the damn balls then.
- [172:34]
Leo Laporte
Nice.
- [172:35]
Benito
You could probably configure it, right. To do other stuff.
- [172:37]
Jeff Jarvis
I would imagine through it.
- [172:39]
Leo Laporte
The real problem is you have to hit the ball into the basket each time. But I guess that's the.
- [172:43]
Benito
Catches it.
- [172:43]
Leo Laporte
If you. Yeah, but it catches it. It moves around.
- [172:47]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah.
- [172:47]
Leo Laporte
Oh, moving around. So even if you hit it. Poor ball. It will get. It will get it.
- [172:52]
Jeff Jarvis
Apparently so. Yeah.
- [172:54]
Paris Martineau
I want to see it try and play against me. A very bad.
- [172:57]
Leo Laporte
That's what. That's the secret sauce. Is that you don't. You don't have to hit the basket. You. Wow. Are you a good tennis player?
- [173:06]
Paris Martineau
Oh, I'm so bad. That's why I'd like to see it play against me.
- [173:10]
Leo Laporte
I'm sure that would be fun again. You see, we don't need human partners any longer. We can just. AI is their new friend.
- [173:16]
Paris Martineau
Date and marry our AI partners play tennis with robots.
- [173:22]
Leo Laporte
I'm marrying the local tennis pro. Oh, that's nice. Well, there are some downsides. I have to oil him every three weeks.
- [173:31]
Paris Martineau
His basket gets really ratty.
- [173:35]
Leo Laporte
Okay. Okay, that's good. I did hope you were going to do the great PowerPoint panic of 2003.
- [173:41]
Jeff Jarvis
And then I want to say who's going to tell Zoo? But we'll get there.
- [173:45]
Richard Gingris
Oh.
- [173:46]
Leo Laporte
So what's the story here?
- [173:48]
Jeff Jarvis
So the great part is that. Is that there was a. Ready? Are you ready? Bonito, Are you ready? Are you ready? Here.
- [173:52]
Paris Martineau
Hey, Bonito, are you ready?
- [173:54]
Richard Gingris
Even.
- [173:54]
Jeff Jarvis
Even PowerPoint caused a. There we go.
- [174:02]
Benito
Houston, we have a problem.
- [174:05]
Leo Laporte
That's an appropriate one because it was NASA.
- [174:08]
Jeff Jarvis
Go ahead. Yes.
- [174:12]
Leo Laporte
You remember in 2003 the great tragedy. The space shuttle Columbia disintegrated on its way into touchdown and all seven astronauts aboard were killed. The cause of the disaster? A piece of insulating phone that had broken loose. But really the problem was a over complex PowerPoint slide. Engineers had known about and inappropriately, according to the Atlantic discounted the wing damage long before the attempted reentry. The flaws in their analysis were buried in a series of arcane and overstuffed computer presentation slides that were shown to NASA officials. It's easy to understand how a senior Manager might read this PowerPoint slide and not realize it addresses a life threatening situation. This was in the report after the disaster from the board.
- [175:09]
Jeff Jarvis
Right.
- [175:10]
Leo Laporte
The board explained that it was the. It was the. The board views the endemic use of PowerPoint briefing slides instead of technical papers as an illustration of the problematic methods of technical communication.
- [175:22]
Jeff Jarvis
By the start of 2003, the phrase death by PowerPoint had well and truly entered the popular lexicon. A Yale statistician named Edward Tuft. Is it Tuft or Tufty?
- [175:32]
Leo Laporte
Tufte.
- [175:33]
Jeff Jarvis
Tufte was the first to take it literally. That spring Tufte published a rip roaring broadside titled the cognitive style of PowerPoint including his analysis of the software's role in the recent Columbia disaster.
- [175:44]
Leo Laporte
He is a very famous brilliant guy on information presentation. Actually does I think he still does it. He tours around the country doing lectures on information presentation. Has a very good book all about.
- [175:58]
Paris Martineau
It known as the Da Vinci of Data.
- [176:01]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, he's really good I this had.
- [176:04]
Paris Martineau
To be terrible news for McKinsey. Consultants everywhere shook them to their core.
- [176:10]
Leo Laporte
His book is called the the Qu. Let's see the visual display of quantitative information.
- [176:18]
Jeff Jarvis
Excerpt from his pamphlet in September 2003 beneath the headline PowerPoint is Easy Evil.
- [176:24]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [176:25]
Jeff Jarvis
New York Times of course summarized it saying PowerPoint makes you dumb. Colin Powell had used the software to present evidence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
- [176:36]
Leo Laporte
Yikes.
- [176:37]
Jeff Jarvis
So I actually agree with this. I think PowerPoint has been the ruin of logic and discourse and everybody summarizes crap into three bullets. The way AI is now summarizing every single news story out there and and I think it's ruined paragraphs.
- [176:54]
Paris Martineau
I would argue the Gen Z equivalent and especially Gen Alpha equivalent of this is Instagram slideshows. Now everything is just an I think Instagram is evil.
- [177:05]
Leo Laporte
I'm Although I enjoyed your spring slideshow Paris. I quite enjoyed that. I thought that was quite good.
- [177:13]
Paris Martineau
It's the only good slideshow ones that I do.
- [177:16]
Leo Laporte
Interestingly if you go to Edward Tubman Tufte's website, he says I wish to sell licenses of my work for LLM AI AR use. They're all copyrighted but if you wish you could buy them the writer asked.
- [177:31]
Jeff Jarvis
Tufti what he thought of his critique of PowerPoint, how it had aged true to form. He answered the 16 page PDF compiled especially for me.
- [177:39]
Leo Laporte
My dad growing up was a fan and he had because my dad wrote books and he was. He used. You know, he was a professor of geology so he needed ways to express information, often graphically and he had a really beautiful. I don't know if it was from Tufte's book or somewhere else, but a beautiful map of Napoleon's march on Russia that showed the attrition of the army. I wonder if I. Oh, yeah, here it is. It's an ancient map that showed the attrition of the army as they got closer and closer and winter got worse and worse. I think Tufti uses this as an example of information displayed in a way that is really graspable. It's quite a good. This is a English translation of it. And how this. They started with an army of 422,000, got to Moscow with 100,000, got home with 4,000, and this is the temperature below it. Anyway, so there are ways to communicate information graphically, but PowerPoint does not encourage the best uses.
- [178:57]
Jeff Jarvis
So then finally, line 111. Who wants to tell Zuck?
- [179:01]
Leo Laporte
Oh, no. Zuck has his new glasses and he thinks they're really cute. New Oakley meta glasses on the way. Excited to collab with another iconic brand like Oakley, the future of performance. AI glasses.
- [179:22]
Jeff Jarvis
I don't know. What do you think, folks? Is it.
- [179:23]
Leo Laporte
I think they fit his personality. Paris, doesn't he look like just exactly like the kind of surfer dude you'd run into at a, you know, Redondo beach clam shack? I don't know.
- [179:34]
Jeff Jarvis
He wants to be a surfer dude. He's not.
- [179:37]
Paris Martineau
It's just he can ride one of those, frankly. It's.
- [179:42]
Jeff Jarvis
All right. So here's the question.
- [179:43]
Paris Martineau
Not significantly worse than his other glasses that he wears all the time, that. Which are also meta Ray Bans, which just look dorky.
- [179:50]
Jeff Jarvis
Well, so that was my question. Is this. Is this geek, nerd or Dweek?
- [179:55]
Leo Laporte
I might be buying it's. Which, yeah, actually has a less savory real meaning. But we won't go into really. Oh, yeah, look it up.
- [180:06]
Paris Martineau
I disavow everyone. I disavow everyone and everything. Just to be clear.
- [180:14]
Leo Laporte
Let me just put it this way. There are a surprisingly large number of words in the language to represent penises. Dork is a particular.
- [180:28]
Jeff Jarvis
I once I saw one week I had a schmuck joke and it was the title, and then suddenly it went out at the last minute.
- [180:34]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [180:34]
Jeff Jarvis
Was that why?
- [180:36]
Leo Laporte
Probably. Schmuck. Yeah, that's another bad word.
- [180:39]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, it is.
- [180:40]
Leo Laporte
Yiddish has a lot of words. I keep using Yiddish words that turn out to be penis. They think dork came from a Norwegian dialect where word dorg, meaning a dimwitted or slovenly person but others also think it's just a bowdlerized form of the other D word. I don't know. I'm gonna probably buy these Oakley Metas. I hate to say it.
- [181:08]
Paris Martineau
Why the ones red lenses?
- [181:12]
Leo Laporte
Well, no, I'm not gonna get the red lenses.
- [181:13]
Jeff Jarvis
That's the expensive ones. That's.
- [181:14]
Richard Gingris
That's.
- [181:16]
Paris Martineau
You want the white Oakley?
- [181:19]
Leo Laporte
I don't know. I don't. It's not that I want them.
- [181:21]
Paris Martineau
Are you trying to match them to your hair?
- [181:24]
Leo Laporte
Oh, okay, now you've just gone.
- [181:28]
Richard Gingris
You.
- [181:28]
Leo Laporte
Okay, we're now taking you to McDonald's.
- [181:31]
Paris Martineau
Okay, that's fair.
- [181:32]
Leo Laporte
You just. You're getting in. You're getting in and out. Sorry.
- [181:35]
Paris Martineau
I do think, honestly, in and out. I've never had in and out. I.
- [181:38]
Leo Laporte
You know what?
- [181:39]
Jeff Jarvis
We'll take you to in and out, but okay.
- [181:41]
Leo Laporte
It is overrated. What's the best tambour?
- [181:43]
Jeff Jarvis
Burger America.
- [181:45]
Leo Laporte
America.
- [181:47]
Jeff Jarvis
When are you coming to New York, Leo?
- [181:49]
Leo Laporte
Probably next month. I gotta come and see Hank.
- [181:52]
Jeff Jarvis
Yeah, well, we got to go to Burger America. We will again.
- [181:55]
Leo Laporte
And it's just now in one of your pictures, I saw a guy that looked like the Burger America guy at Salt Hanks. That wasn't him, was it? No. No, I don't think so.
- [182:06]
Jeff Jarvis
What? Show it to me.
- [182:08]
Leo Laporte
I don't know. We gotta end this show. I can't go through. I can't do that anymore. Maybe. Maybe it wasn't yours. Maybe it was from somebody else. I don't know. Maybe. I will show you a picture of my wife with a giant chicken, though. This is the kind of excitement you're gonna get. Paris. Listen, when you come to town, that's.
- [182:26]
Paris Martineau
Exactly what I'm looking for. I will be opening the roadsideamerica.com subsection that is like a tour of giant objects that you can interact with.
- [182:38]
Leo Laporte
I worked with a woman, Cami Blackstone. She used to do a show for us called Munchkast, who was a specialist in roadside attractions. And for our radio show, she would. She went all over the country stopping at these crazy giant things and weird things. Giant ball of twine.
- [182:55]
Paris Martineau
She trip the. What's it called? America's fruit basket. Which is just specifically a subsection of Roadside America that is just all the largest fruit. Fruit statues in America.
- [183:06]
Leo Laporte
Could be she managed to hit a lot of the high points. I don't know where we got the budget for that, but it was fun. Anyway, I think it was called on the Road with Kami, something like that. Anyway, we have finally, unbelievably, after three hours and seven minutes come to the conclusion of this show. You know what? Honestly folks, if you're not getting the 3 hour, 7 minute version, but instead some bowdler version that Benito made, ask for the original, the full length.
- [183:35]
Paris Martineau
Ask for the cut where Leo goes in about his favorite local restaurants.
- [183:39]
Leo Laporte
By the way, I will agree with you. John. Ashley Gotts, Roadside. Pretty darn good. Pretty darn good. That's in son. Where is that? That's in Napa.
- [183:48]
Paris Martineau
Someone says, I thought after the pick of the week, the show was supposed to end.
- [183:52]
Leo Laporte
Oh, you thought? Oh, you thought. Oh no. Oh no, the show. This is the show that never ends.
- [183:59]
Jeff Jarvis
We haven't even gotten to the pointers we weekly bourbon yet.
- [184:01]
Paris Martineau
Ever. Yeah, yeah.
- [184:03]
Leo Laporte
Oh yeah, I gotta do my bourbon pick now.
- [184:05]
Paris Martineau
Yeah, that's gonna be another three and a half hours.
- [184:07]
Richard Gingris
You know.
- [184:08]
Jeff Jarvis
You know, Leo, that's what we always ask when we come on. We ask if they started whiskey. They started the bourbon yet?
- [184:14]
Paris Martineau
No. He's like, no, not yet.
- [184:16]
Leo Laporte
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. For a while there wasn't an initiative here to get the shows down to two hours. I have failed miserably this week. Yeah, it didn't last too long. Thank you everybody for joining us. We do Intelligent Machines. Really roughly round about 2 o' clock Pacific to 7, 8pm Whenever we're done. No, two usually 2 to 5pm Pacific. That's 5 to 8 Eastern, 2100 UTC. You can watch us live if you're in the club, in the Discord, but also on YouTube, Twitch, TikTok, X.com, facebook, LinkedIn, Kik. We stream them live everywhere. We chat with you live from all of those platforms. So please do, if you want watch live after the fact, download a show at Twitt tv. I am. There's audio and video. There's also a link there to the YouTube channel if you want to, for some strange reason, share a clip of this show with a friend. Help spread the word. And yes, you can subscribe in your favorite podcast player or as they say, wherever podcasts are. Wherever you download your podcast from. Now, there's no good way to say that. Wherever from, wherever you download.
- [185:24]
Jeff Jarvis
Once you download, upload your podcasts.
- [185:26]
Leo Laporte
What is. What did they say on pbs?
- [185:28]
Paris Martineau
Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [185:31]
Leo Laporte
That'S what they say on npr.
- [185:33]
Jeff Jarvis
They say, from whence cometh your podcast.
- [185:35]
Leo Laporte
From whence your podcast.
- [185:37]
Paris Martineau
Look out yonder.
- [185:38]
Benito
All right, let's wrap it up, guys.
- [185:43]
Leo Laporte
Saying wrap it up, subscribe, get it automatically and leave a great review. Paris next week Find some good reviews you can read on the air.
- [185:53]
Paris Martineau
Okay, great.
- [185:53]
Leo Laporte
That's your assignment. And we thank you all for putting up with us. It's a lot of fun to do this show. And as you can see, we kind of enjoy each other. We'll see you next time. I hope you enjoy it on Intelligent Machines.
- [186:03]
Richard Gingris
Bye.
- [186:03]
Leo Laporte
Bye. I'm not a human being.
- [186:08]
Paris Martineau
Not into this animal scene.
- [186:11]
Leo Laporte
I'm an intelligent machine.
- [186:14]
Paris Martineau
Hi, Zoe Saldana.
- [186:16]
Leo Laporte
Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.
- [186:19]
Richard Gingris
Thanks.
- [186:19]
Leo Laporte
And here's my old phone to trans. You don't need a trade in when you switch to T Mobile. We'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your old phone. Up to 800 bucks and you still.
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Paris Martineau
Get to keep it.
- [186:30]
Leo Laporte
There's always a trade in. Not right now. @ T Mobile.
- [186:33]
Jeff Jarvis
I feel like I have to give.
- [186:33]
Leo Laporte
You something in return for karma. That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see.
- [186:39]
Paris Martineau
Hand sanitizer.
- [186:40]
Leo Laporte
It's lavender. I'm good. Seriously.
- [186:42]
Jeff Jarvis
Let me check this pocket.
- [186:43]
Leo Laporte
Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine.
- [186:45]
Paris Martineau
Oh, I have one.
- [186:46]
Leo Laporte
Raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car.
- [186:50]
Jeff Jarvis
It's our best iPhone offer ever.
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Leo Laporte
Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple intelligence on us.
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Jeff Jarvis
No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your phone up.
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Leo Laporte
To 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line, 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualifying, forwarded for well qualified plus tax and.
- [187:08]
Benito
$10 connection charge payout via virtual prepaid card.
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Leo Laporte
Allow 15 days credits end and balance.
- [187:12]
Paris Martineau
Due if you pay off earlier.
- [187:13]
Leo Laporte
Cancel see T mobile dot com.