Intelligent Machines 845: Pregnant With 83 Digital Assistants

Podcast: All TWiT.tv Shows: Intelligent Machines
Date: November 13, 2025
Host(s): Jeff Jarvis, Paris Martineau
Special Guest: Kevin Kelly, Senior Maverick at Wired

Episode Overview

This episode features a lively and thought-provoking conversation on the evolving landscape of artificial intelligence, technology's long-term trajectory, and the ways humans interact with intelligent machines. With veteran techno-philosopher Kevin Kelly as guest, the panel explores the nature of AI (are they artificial humans, or something much stranger?), AI hype, the future of media, and the importance of optimism and long-term thinking. The episode blends serious analysis with humor, side discussions about personal projects, and amusing moments, resulting in a wide-ranging yet coherent tapestry of ideas.

Main Theme

Exploring the diverse futures of artificial intelligence and technology's broader societal effects, through the ideas of Kevin Kelly, with a focus on why AIs are more like "artificial aliens" than artificial humans.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kevin Kelly's Background & Outlook on Technology

• Kevin is introduced as a futurist, author, founding editor of Wired, and curator of the “Cool Tools” project.

• Photography and Asia: Kevin has a new art book, Colors of Asia, based on 300,000 photographs taken over 50 years, arranged by color rather than geography, challenging traditional associations (04:18–05:04).

  • “There’s something about paying attention to color...all these images...arranged by color. That kind of forces a new association in your mind.” — Kevin Kelly

• Kelly’s passion for accessible technology is discussed:

  • He now primarily shoots photography with an iPhone, noting advancements in camera technology over traditional film and DSLRs (05:36–06:28).
  • He is selective in adopting technology: “I try everything, but I only keep a little bit. I'm pretty selective. I review lots of things. I feel no obligation to use things that aren’t really benefiting me.” (06:40)

2. State of Virtual Reality

• Reflecting on the slow development of consumer VR:
  • Despite optimism in organizing the first public VR event ('Cyberthon'), headsets remain “too bulky” and “not ready”—needing to become “magic glasses” (07:29–07:54).
  • “We just haven’t gotten there yet. I think we will, but we haven’t yet.” — Kevin Kelly

3. The Nature of Artificial Intelligence: “Artificial Aliens”

• Kelly’s fundamental idea: AIs are not “artificial humans” but “artificial aliens,” possessing different types of intelligence (08:50–15:08).

  • “There isn’t one uniform, generic, universal AI. I think it’s like machines—we have machines, and they’re all different... AIs are going to be like that.” — Kevin Kelly (08:50)
  • Argues for thinking of “AIs” plural—highlighting the huge space of possible intelligences, not a ladder, but a multidimensional landscape.
  • “Our relationship to them will be similar to aliens... they aren’t necessarily above or below us, they’re other.” (10:56)

• Interfacing and invisibility:

  • Only 1% of future AIs will have human-facing interfaces and need human-comparable attributes.
  • The rest will be agent-to-agent, fully invisible to us—“Technologies succeed by becoming invisible.” (12:01–13:09)

• Critique of the Church-Turing thesis:

  • Kelly contends real-world constraints matter—a wet brain and a dry silicon chip will not produce identical intelligence, even in theory (13:30–14:41).

• The value of “thinking different”:

  • Emphasizes why we need AIs unlike ourselves to escape “groupthink” and solve problems unsolvable by human cognition alone (14:41–15:08).

Notable Quote

“The engines of innovation and wealth is thinking different. And we need these AIs to help us think different. Otherwise, we’re going to have groupthink.” — Kevin Kelly (14:41)

4. Critique of AI 'Doomers' and Singularity Hype

• Kelly calls the “fast takeoff” singularity narrative (AI recursively improving itself into uncontrollable superintelligence) an overhyped “fantasy” and dubs the focus on IQ “thinkism” (15:22–20:24).
  • “Intelligence is way overrated... Most middle aged guys who like to think, who think that thinking is the most important thing in the world... We need other qualities besides IQ... There’s an overemphasis on IQ as the way things happen.” (15:22)
  • Warns “AI coding that’s optimized to write AI code that’s optimized to write AI code” could create narrow, self-reinforcing loops (17:00).
  • Critiques current LLMs as “knowledge-based, not reality-based” and lacking embodied common sense, spatial awareness, and broader intelligence (18:38–19:10).
  • “There isn’t an exponential rise in the output... It’s very, very small in part because we don’t even know... what something outside of human intelligence would even look like.” (19:50)

5. Progress on AI and Technological Change

• Jarvis notes that Kelly predicted “cognifying”—embedding AI into everything—years ago.
• Kelly describes the recent leap in LLM language abilities as an “unexpected surprise” but insists “we are still at day one” of AI development and a long way from what later generations may consider 'real' AI (21:26–23:29).

6. The Fate of Technologists and the User-AI Relationship

• Discusses the “centaur” model—a collaborative relationship where humans and AIs each contribute unique strengths (24:47–27:59).

  • “It’s Kirk and Spock. You don’t want either alone. You need them both.” (24:47)
  • Suggests AIs will need humans as parents/teachers for a long time—both for socialization and for moral/ethical guidance.
  • “The business that we’re in is making ourselves better humans. The AIs are just our helpers in doing that.” (27:32)

• On optimism and progress:

  • Kelly frames optimism as a conscious, necessary stance—“optimism is how we shape the future. One or two percent more progress is enough, when it compounds over decades.” (28:45–31:15)
  • 'Protopia,' not utopia or dystopia, is his guiding concept—a world becoming very gradually better.

7. Long Now Foundation & Long-Term Thinking

• Discusses the famous “10,000-year clock” as a metaphor for long-term stewardship—urges moving beyond quarterly or yearly thinking to consider 5,000-, 10,000-year scales (32:40).
• Contrasts short-term panic and dystopia with the importance of envisioning positive futures—actions today can have echoes centuries ahead (32:40–35:02).

Notable Quote

“We want to be doing things now, maybe involved in things that may not even be completed in our own lifetime.” — Kevin Kelly (34:30)

8. Public Intelligence / Commons AI Advocacy

• Kelly describes his advocacy for public, commons-owned AI systems not just corporate/governmental ones, accessible and trained on all languages (34:40).

9. The Future of Legacy Media in an AI World

• Predicts the future of media trends:
  • Movement from 'people of the book' to 'people of the screen'.
  • Anticipates more personalized content (“audience of one”), even full-length films produced for single co-creators.
  • Believes books will continue but at the margins of culture—media will be more communal, more immersive, and built for the screen (35:50–37:35).

10. International Impact and Positive Scenarios

• Discusses Kelly’s unique fame and readership in China, projects like 2049 envisioning positive world futures, joint scenarios for China and the world, and his travels there (39:10–45:36).
  • Urges Americans to increase direct understanding of China—emphasizing shared humor, immigrant energy, and rapid urban innovation.

11. Humorous Moments, Pop Culture, and Language Shifts

• Panel riffs on contemporary tech culture:
  • Quizzes on “words of the year”—e.g., “vibe coding,” “glazing,” “micro retirement,” etc. (56:00–63:20)
  • Jokes about AI assistants’ “glazing” (i.e., excessive flattery/cloying support), leading to annoyance.
  • Numerous references to cheese, Toyota Camrys, and Paris Martineau’s road trip.

12. The Right to Compute and the Law

• Discussion of recent Montana law to “enshrine the right to compute,” protecting access to AI and computational tools (65:54–71:02).
• Skepticism about motives and true effects; possible pushback or workaround to federal regulation.

13. The Worldcoin Project

• Explores Sam Altman's Worldcoin, iris-scanning for crypto and authentication, its deployment in the developing world, and privacy/data mining concerns (71:16–74:35).

14. Military and AI: Drone Procurement

• US Army plans to buy 1 million drones; Ukraine’s war and drone usage; concerns about surveillance and military tech migrating to domestic policing (84:22–88:52).

15. Synthetic Voters

• Critique of replacing polls/focus groups with “synthetic voters” (LLM-based agents meant to represent humans)—panel decries further abstraction/loss of individual agency (111:37–113:59).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On AI Pluralities:
  “We don’t talk about ‘the machine’ in our lives… We have machines, and they’re all different.” — Kevin Kelly (08:50)
• On Intelligence:
  “Intelligence isn’t an element. It’s a compound made up of elemental particles of cognition.” — Kevin Kelly (09:40)
• On AI Hype:
  “I think there’s an overemphasis on IQ as the way things happen… I call it ‘thinkism’.” — Kevin Kelly (15:22)
• On Technology’s Progress:
  “One or two percent compounded, over centuries is progress. So that means 49% of the world could be utter, terrible disaster… In that 1 or 2 percent is my optimism.” — Kevin Kelly (30:03–31:15)
• On AI's Role:
  “The AIs are just our helpers in making us better humans.” — Kevin Kelly (27:59)
• On Chinese popularity:
  “I’m the Alvin Toffler of China … recognized on the street in airports and stuff.” — Kevin Kelly (39:20)
• On optimism:
  “My optimism is the deliberate choice. I choose to be more optimistic every year.” — Kevin Kelly (28:46)
• On cheese:
  “I am drunk on cheese.” — Paris Martineau (145:53)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Kevin Kelly’s Recent Projects, Book, and Philosophy on Tools: 04:10–06:48
• Best Camera Ever Owned / Shooting with iPhone: 05:36–06:28
• VR Still Not Magic Glasses: 07:29–07:54
• AI as “Artificial Aliens”: 08:50–15:08
• AI ‘Thinkism’, Hype, and Limitations: 15:22–20:24
• History of AI Innovation/Cognification Predictions: 20:57–23:29
• The Centaur Model—Collaborative Human/AI Future: 24:47–27:59
• Choosing Optimism / Protopia: 28:45–31:15
• Long Now Foundation and 10,000-Year Clock: 32:40–35:02
• Audience of One, Media’s Future: 35:46–37:35
• Kelly’s Positive China/U.S. Futures and 2049 Book: 39:10–45:36
• Words of the Year (Vibe Coding, Glazing, etc): 56:00–63:20
• Right to Compute Law Discussion: 65:54–71:02
• Worldcoin and Concerns: 71:16–74:35
• Army Buys a Million Drones/Domestic Surveillance: 84:22–88:52
• Synthetic Voters (LLM focus groups): 111:37–113:59
• AI’s Impact on Media, Archives, and Society: 98:26, 130:00, 132:08
• Segment on AI-Generated Poetry about Cheese: 141:43–145:17
• (Humor) Paris’s road trip, museums, cheese, and Camry: 148:08–157:19

Flow, Tone, and Style

• The conversation mixes high-level techno-philosophy, journalistic skepticism, and playful humor.
• Kevin Kelly’s style is characteristically reflective, optimistic, and deeply curious; the hosts blend code-switching between analysis and personal anecdotes.
• Side conversations (about cheese, “words of the year,” Paris’s travels, club activities) add levity and reinforce the show’s relaxed, informal, yet intellectually stimulating brand.

Conclusion

A must-listen episode offering an optimistic, nuanced vision of the technological future—one where AI is neither existential savior nor existential risk, but instead a broad, alien family of minds that can help us be more fully human. Kelly advocates for plurality, long-termism, commons-based AI, and sustained progress. The hosts keep things fun while probing real policy, ethics, and culture. The episode is both serious and silly, rich in insight and humor, and ends with gratitude and anticipation for more groundbreaking conversations.

Next Episode Tease

Next week’s guest: Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia.

For those who want the deepest ideas with a side of cheese-induced giddiness: this episode is for you.