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Intelligent Machines 879: Alex Karp, Alex Karp, Alex Karp
02:24:26
Beyond Fable: Are Open Models Ready for Prime Time?
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- [00:00]
A
It's time for Intelligent Machines. Jeff's here, Paris is here. Our guest Rafi Krikorian is the CTO of Mozilla.org and he just released his state of open source AI. We'll talk about open AI models and why we should all get behind them. That and a whole lot more coming up next on Intelligent Machines. This episode is brought to you by Black Hat usa. If you listen to this show, you go deep on the technical detail. Well, so does Black Hat. For nearly three decades it's been where the security industry's most rigorous research gets presented and pressure tested. More than 100 hands on trainings taught by practitioners who've actually deployed in live environments, not lecturers reading from slides and hundreds of peer reviewed briefings that go well past the overview into the real work across the four areas defining security right now, AI and autonomous threats, cyber conflict, systemic resilience and identity. This year, Black Hat's briefings pass includes all keynotes and main stage access plus business hall entry. You also get breakfast, lunch, arsenal live tool demos, on demand session access and admission to the midnight in the war room screening. Black Hat takes place from August 1st to the 6th in Las Vegas. If you want the depth this show gets into in person with the people doing the work, this is the room. And we'll be there too. Prices rise on July 17th, so book before then. Use code TWIT for $200 off your briefings pass@blackhat.com us26 that's B L A C K H A T.com us26 podcasts you love from people you trust. This is TW. This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis. Episode 879 recorded Wednesday, July 15, 2026. Alex Karp. Alex Karp. Alex Karp. It's time for Intelligent Machines, the show. We cover the latest in AI robotics and all the smart doodads and doohickeys all around you. I would like to before we introduce our very special guest for today's show, introduce. Paris Martineau was our very special panelist, investigative journalist from Consumer Reports. Hello Paris.
- [02:30]
B
Hello Leo.
- [02:31]
A
Hello. Good to see you. Also professor emeritus of journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at City University of New York.
- [02:42]
B
Almost got there. You're getting faster.
- [02:44]
A
If I jump on it. I think I can fool Benino, but never. That's Jeff Jarvis, author of Hot Type which emerges from hot presses in two weeks. You can order it right now from jeff jarvis.com. hello Jeff.
- [03:00]
C
Hello boss.
- [03:01]
A
Let me introduce our Guest who actually is a fascinating fella. Rafi Krikorian is the engineer Silicon Valley calls when something important is broken. How about that? He fixed the fail whale at Twitter. Ok. Ran Uber's first self driving fleet in Pittsburgh. Rebuilt the Democratic party's technology after the 2016 hack. Stop me if any of this is wrong. Raffi spent six years at the Emerson Collective. Laureen Powell Jobs wonderful kind of, I guess you call it almost an accelerator for great journalism. And he did a podcast there called Technically Optimistic which I love you. Since the fall, Rafi has been the first ever portfolio wide CTO at the Mozilla Foundation. It's great to have you Rafi. Actually one thing that was interesting in your bio. Even though you ran Uber's first self driving fleet. You got in an accident in your Tesla under full self driving. Your kids were in the back seat.
- [04:15]
D
That's right.
- [04:15]
A
And you were concussed.
- [04:17]
D
That is right.
- [04:18]
A
That was in just a few months ago.
- [04:20]
D
It was in November of this year.
- [04:22]
A
Is everybody okay?
- [04:23]
D
Everyone's fine. The hardware worked great. The software a bit of a problem.
- [04:29]
B
Yeah, that seems to be the lack there with full self driving.
- [04:34]
A
Well, I'm glad I'm.
- [04:36]
C
Do you still use full self driving?
- [04:38]
D
I do not own a Tesla anymore.
- [04:40]
C
Oh, okay.
- [04:42]
A
Yeah.
- [04:42]
B
I assume getting in an accident with children in the car is enough to.
- [04:47]
D
I know for fun fact, the insurance on a. On a full collision on a Tesla is more than its resale value.
- [04:51]
A
So total. Yeah, it was totaled. Another.
- [04:54]
C
Yeah, I asked what you drive now
- [04:56]
D
I'm back to my 2016 Subaru which I have completely hacked apart. So I'm very happy with that right now.
- [05:02]
C
And.
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A
And there is no self driving in that at all. Right.
- [05:05]
D
Oh, I mean there's actually a self driving system.
- [05:07]
A
Are you using comma AI or something in.
- [05:08]
D
I have hacked a comma AI system into it.
- [05:12]
A
And do you feel that's more reliable than Tesla's fsd?
- [05:15]
D
No, absolutely not. I just give you something to tinker with.
- [05:17]
C
Just to be clear.
- [05:20]
A
Well, no comma AI is very interesting. We've tried to get George on the show for ages and ages. He has actually kind of an interesting take on AI. But let's not. We'll talk about that when we get him on. Let's talk about today. You delivered a talk the first state of open source AI and people can go to the webpage which says by the way version 1.0 recurring. So this is not the end. The end of it. Your conclusion? Well, I'm going to let you Summarize your conclusion, then we can look at some of the data.
- [05:54]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think I would say three things. One is that open source models are almost at parity for everyday use cases. Wow. I think we looked across all the entire model ecosystem. We looked at data from open router, we looked at all these things and it seems like the. For everyday use cases, not frontier work, which I totally acknowledge that open source models are good enough and the market is shifting toward them. So I think that's number one. I think number two is that the actual untested parts of the open source AI stack have moved to what we call the agentic harness. It's no longer the models. There's lots of reasons why people like to talk about models, but it's things like open code or things like the Hermes agent or things like that which actually wrap the model. That's where the contested parts of the open stack stack remain. And then the third is sort of like this sovereignty finding of just like there are a lot of countries around the world which are an. Which are eager for open source AI systems because in a lot of ways they're worried about the supply chain when it comes to American technologies. And what happened with the. The mythos shut off and so like that sent a ripple effect across the entire world on the sovereignty end. So I think those are like the three big stories that have come out as we put this together. And as you mentioned, we view this as a recurring thing like expect to see 2.0 in a year, we'll probably have 1.1 in the September, and we'll just keep on updating it. So we have a good definitive sense of like where open source AI is
- [07:24]
A
because it's moving fast. Everything in AI is moving fast.
- [07:27]
D
Well, six months ago I wouldn't have talked about agentic harnesses. And so that has been a thing in the last six months.
- [07:32]
A
And how are you testing Hermes user? And one of the beauty parts of that is from session to session, even from turn to turn, I can change the model. I have all the models in there. And I use Ornith, which is a kind of a distillation of Quentin, and it's a very good low. It's running locally on my machine and 99% of it, it is all I need for agencic work. But that is, I think a lot of people would say, wait a minute, wait a minute. Open weight models are. And by the way, I prefer open weight to open source.
- [08:02]
D
I think it's accurate.
- [08:04]
A
Okay. Because they aren't Open source, they don't tell you, they don't tell you the code they're using to train or anything like that. But they, but they will show. But you can get the parameterization, you can get the weight of the model, and maybe more importantly to us, you can get the model.
- [08:19]
D
Exactly.
- [08:21]
A
If you have enough memory, you could run GLM5 too, locally. And that's probably really mostly what we're talking about when we're talking about open.
- [08:30]
C
Do you ever change the weights, Leo? Do you ever screw with the weights?
- [08:33]
A
I don't. I wouldn't have know how, but it is kind of cool. You can play with it. But still, I think when you say that open weight models are approximating the frontier models, I think there's a lot of people, especially people who are spending a lot of money on Fable and Saul, who would say, what? Yep.
- [08:53]
D
No, I think that, like, I think it's a jagged frontier.
- [08:56]
A
I don't think. Isn't it? It's jagged.
- [08:58]
D
So it is not. It is not the case that the open weight models are equivalent on all tasks. I'm saying that they are equivalent for about like 80% of everyday tasks. I mean, I equate, I equate it to like, I don't need a Ferrari to manage my calendar. In fact, like, it's probably annoying to
- [09:15]
A
drive a Ferrari to manage my calendar, change my calendar.
- [09:18]
D
I've. But I think like GLM 5.2, which is what I'm using, works great on my calendar. And, and it's, and it's me. If you run a hosted version of GLM 5, I, I too run it locally. But if you run it on Nebulous or stuff like that, it's something like 20 to 50 times cheaper than running something like a Fable.
- [09:36]
B
Are there any use cases for where this is true that were surprising to you?
- [09:41]
D
That, I mean, like, I, I do think that like one of the biggest questions is, can these things run overnight and not be, not be talked to while they're doing things? Like, can they actually just keep on working on a complicated task while I sleep? I don't think the answer is there yet. So, like, if you try to get it to write a large amount of code, that would take a couple of hours even for one of these things to go do, they'll kind of go off the rails in the middle of the night after like three hours of making that number up, something in the order of three hours. Whereas Fable will probably get me through the night. Like, I'll probably keep on going and wake up the next morning, be like, oh, that's great, let's keep going. And so I think that these long horizon tasks are where they're still not quite there yet.
- [10:24]
C
Talk for a second about the methodology you used today to compare them. Because we talked about this last week, the benchmarks that the companies use are kind of meaningless to us as consumers. So I want to hear about the methodology you use now. But then also I'm imagining the methodology is going to change. It's not like you have a standard test. So how did you do this and how are you going to do this in the future?
- [10:46]
D
So two things. One is we relied on all of the different benchmarks. So we didn't pick one particular benchmark. We looked at them all to try to understand both in identic cases, there's a bunch of benchmarks we use for everyday use cases and things like that. But then the other thing we did is just more of a personal test. So we actually have a setup where we've recorded for myself literally every single prompt I've given to a system in the past couple of weeks we call the system Morph. And what it's allowed us to do is just like record every prompt and record every output so we can replay it. So we can then replay all the prompts against different models and just look at them. So it's not the most scientific case. Like, we're not comparing the actual outputs rigorously because it's very hard to do that. But we can eyeball them and just be like, oh, this one got it close, this one didn't get it close. But I think the first part of just recording every little thing we do was the key part of it.
- [11:40]
C
Did you use the same prompts then against each model?
- [11:42]
D
Correct. Then we can replay them on different models.
- [11:44]
C
On different models. Got it.
- [11:45]
A
So the graph on the website is Chatbot arena correct. You feel like that's a good measure?
- [11:53]
D
I think Chatbot arena is a good one for just like what everyday use cases look like. So, yes, we do think that's a good one, but we're corroborating it. So anything we've put on state of open source, we have a good gut sense that is correct because we've looked at it through this lens as well.
- [12:08]
A
So this is based on Chatbot Arena.
- [12:11]
D
Correct.
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A
Going back to January 2024, closed models led open models by 8%, which is, I think. Is that significant? Is that a significant.
- [12:20]
D
That's significant. I mean, that's significant. So, like, if you give it a test of 100 different things, it's about eight of them. It would fail comparatively. That's pretty significant.
- [12:28]
A
Okay. And at the time that was Llama, which wasn't the best open weight model, but it was the, it was the one. But you see a precipitous drop to August 2024 when it goes down to 0.5%. And then as we know, this is the big watershed. Deep seq R1 came out in February of last year. And every that opened everybody's eyes as to what an open weight model could do.
- [12:53]
D
Yep.
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A
I think in fact it sent a shock through the American AI industry. We're back up now to a bigger gap. But you estimate that, Right.
- [13:03]
D
I think we're getting, I think we're getting closer and I think we're getting even closer. I think like the chapter arena data doesn't account for things like GLM 5.2 or the latest Kiwi models and things like that. So I think we'll actually get closer.
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A
Yeah. GLM 5.2 is amazing.
- [13:16]
D
Yeah. Because I think like these new models showed up coincidentally and I do think it's coincidental. I don't think there's anything nefarious about it. When the fable shut off happened, it's around the same week all these new models dropped.
- [13:27]
A
We got all of a sudden and it was that rug pull by the federal government woke up was kind of like the deep sea aftershock where everybody went, whoa, this could happen. And actually now we're in this kind of crisis moment because the Chinese government has started to make noises about shutting down. All the really good open weight models right now come from China, is that right?
- [13:52]
D
That is correct.
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A
And they're talking about restricting that. I've seen people on X say, everybody download all the models. There's a new, it's called hugging bay, a kind of a pirate's bay for models. People are nervous that we're going to lose access to these open weight models.
- [14:13]
C
Whereas two weeks ago I thought that China was going to undercut the entire US AI market. I thought that was the strategy making them virtually free. So was there a flip flop in their. An open flip flop in their strategy or was it we were just wrong?
- [14:27]
D
Well, I don't know if I have a good answer for that. Like, I think they caught literally everyone by surprise. And I don't think they're saying exactly why. I'm fundamentally confused by it because I do think that China's open model strategy is a little bit of their soft power strategy. So like, I, like, I Don't fully understand what their rationale is behind it, but I guess we'll find out soon.
- [14:44]
A
I, I think there might even be multiple parties at work here. I think the companies see this as a way to get market share and I think the Chinese Communist Party sees this as leverage and I think there may be other parties involved in this and that's why there's kind of a con. It's not like we're a unified country in our opinions either. I, I want to say. So the cost of inference has fallen dramatically.
- [15:09]
D
Correct.
- [15:11]
A
And the use of open weights has risen. This graph on the right, the share of tokens routed on open router through open weight models was essentially zero to now being a majority.
- [15:24]
D
Yep. It's kind of wild in my opinion. Like, I think, like, I think it's a question of just like the innovation or experimentation curve that people are on of just like when they're trying new things, they're tinkering with the big models from Anthropic or chatgpt or OpenAI. But as they're getting closer to production, they're like, we can't afford that. We can't afford. And we can't deal with variable pricing. We can't deal with the fact that the White House might shut it off. And so they figure out at that point when they're ready to get to volume, what's the right model for the right cost. And those tend to be open weight models, it seems. And then they pin to it so that they know it won't change behavior, won't change. It can get good pricing, good volume kind of thing.
- [16:05]
A
So if China cuts it off and the US cuts it off, are there other places to go other.
- [16:12]
D
I mean, right now the answer is sadly no. I mean, like, look, I don't think it's a good place for us to be in a single closed ecosystem with just us closed providers. I also don't think we're in good in a open ecosystem with only one country that provides it. So no, we actually have a problem here as well. I mean, thankfully other countries are starting to make a lot of noise that they need to go invest in it. Mostly the Europeans because they want to not have downstream dependence. Yeah, they don't want to have dependence on the US supply chain. They also don't want to have dependence on Chinese supply chain. So the Europeans are starting to make a lot of noise on it. They start making investments with the Swiss, with the, with the French, etc. So we'll see where those go.
- [16:52]
C
Is Mistral open weight.
- [16:53]
D
Mistral does have opening falls, yes.
- [16:55]
C
Okay. What about the role of Nematron in this?
- [16:58]
D
Yeah, I mean like with Nvidia is up to. It could be super interesting as well. Like they're not, not quite there yet on quality, but that could be super interesting.
- [17:06]
C
And the role of. I find myself in this weird position where I'm agreeing with Alex Karp about anything in life. I know, but arguing that companies are giving away their alpha, their business intelligence to the foundation models instead come to him, trust him by making a saddle on open source models. Is he right in terms of how. Not just morally, but I mean in terms of how companies are going to think. Is that going to win the day? That open source might also be like Apache in the day versus a Netscape browser or server? That open source might win the commercial battle?
- [17:43]
D
I do think it's very likely that we could get to a place that open source wins a vast majority of the commercial battle. I don't think it wins 100%. I do think there is a world where if we think about an interoperable world, if you think about your Apache world, if you think about a LAMP stack, like I think we get to a place where like all these different components are swappable and so like we can try a closed source model while we're still in experimentation stage, but when we get to like real production, we want to like own it and pin it. Like it's similar to what Pinterest did in Pinterest in Q4 they switched to an open weight model that they self host and it saved them like $10 million that quarter. And so like it's just like they had to get to the place that they knew what they were doing and stopped experimenting that they can actually select the right model and then deploy that.
- [18:27]
A
Of course there is, there are challenges to hosting your own model. Of course you have to have an open weight model to begin with, but you also have to have a lot of horsepower, RAM and CPU power. And it's very. Thanks to the frontier companies. Very, very expensive right now. The best, I mean I've been using Deep Seq Flash. China's priced that at pennies on the dollar. I mean it's a tiny cost, but I couldn't run that. I could run a Flash version, I guess, but I can't run the full Deepseek V4 Pro at home. I definitely can't run the full GLM 5.2. Are you running. You must be running a smaller version of glm.
- [19:09]
D
Yeah, I run the version that can be quantized down to what can fit on a DGX Spark. So that's what I do at my home. But I think for these enterprises, I think this is just a opex capex calculation. At some point the price of the tokens get so high that it actually makes sense to buy servers and have the sre.
- [19:27]
A
You can get it if you can
- [19:29]
D
get it, if you can get it.
- [19:30]
A
But. And then you're right, Jeff, that there's a huge concern, we're going to talk about it later in the news section about privacy. It's become very clear that when you use a cloud based model, in order to use a cloud based model it has to upload everything. In fact, people just found out that GROK is in fact uploading more than everything. And that's a huge issue for a company. It's a huge issue for everybody privacy wise, but it's a big issue for company with proprietary data. So that's another, another concern. There's a lot of incentive for a company to do this locally.
- [20:03]
D
Yeah, regulated spaces, for example, like they're not going to want to upload their stuff. They're going to have that under regular control.
- [20:08]
A
And we know the Pentagon, for instance, does not run Fable or Mythos on Anthropic servers. They run it on aws, you know, private government hosted servers. That's going to be another big business by the way. Is private computer some assurance of that?
- [20:25]
C
There's so much regulation news this week. Demis Hassabis with his proposal. Politico on Anthropic is out there state by state doing regulatory capture on their stuff. OpenAI has been giving away equity and so on. The White House has its new thing and then there's China doing what China does. We've discussed. So there's this huge crunch coming here and there's some fear that open, open models could be outlawed, could be restricted in some way. How much of a fear? That's our best competition. It's not, not one civil company to the big guys. It's the, it's the, the institution of open source coming out of this and seeing how important open source is. And I fear that your report is, is it a bit of a red cape to a bull to the frontier companies is like, oh, open source is ever more a threat to them.
- [21:27]
A
Yeah, you're not telling them anything they don't already know.
- [21:29]
C
Exactly. But they're going to push ever more for regulatory capture. So how much danger could open source be in?
- [21:36]
D
No, I think it's Open source under a massive attack right now, like in fact, like to the point, I'll be very honest, to the point that like I think I underestimated how much ATTCK open source is on until we put this report together because as we started talking about it, the amount of, I mean I think the reception I would say to is about 80, 20, 80% is incredibly positive toward it and 20% is outright hostile. And so I think like we underestimated that. But I think I want to also remind us that like there's the rest of the world out there. So like yeah, I think we're going to have a lot of problems in the United States when it comes to open, but I think the rest of the world is actually leaning in because they sort of see the same model that built the Internet, built Linux, stuff like that.
- [22:13]
C
But on the other hand, I went to a World Economic Forum event about two years ago in San Francisco and there was a contingent there that said open source, open model, open weight is dangerous because people can take down the guardrails. God knows we shouldn't have them. So there' swhich sounds a little European to me too, is the regulate, regulate mindset is we must control. And the frontier companies say, well you can control us, we'll write the regulation, but we'll be there and you know who we are, we know what we're doing. I think there'll be some set of people who are worried the moral panic level of worry about AI could hit open source first. It's not just the frontiers companies, it's also others saying this shit's dangerous. And some think that's the most dangerous. I think that's wrong. But they'll say that no.
- [23:03]
D
And I agree. And I think that like a lot of that actually come from the big frontier labs pushing that narrative in the grand scheme of things. I think the question that the other countries, and we talk to a lot of them all the time, it's going to be a race between do they think about sovereignty or do they think about those fears of which ones are going to come first? Because I think if they want to think about sovereignty, and I've heard this directly from a bunch of them, their only path to it in this world is to start to build on those open wave models, to start fine tuning them toward what their country needs and stuff like that. So I think like cutting off the open weight models and maybe someone needs to connect the dots for them, could be undercutting their sovereignty plans but like they at least need Someplace to start right now.
- [23:43]
A
So we're again talking to Rafi Krikorian. He's the CTO of Mozilla and just today published Mozilla's first state of the open source AI. It's all online at OpenSource AI, you say open ships easy but deploys hard. What does that mean?
- [24:02]
D
Yeah, I mean it's really easy to publish these open weight models. Like we're seeing them all the time. Hugging face has what, 13 million more models that you can download. But the biggest thing, we did this in developer survey worldwide where we asked developers like, are you using open source or closed source? If you used open source, when did you use it, what happened? Stuff like that. And open source has a huge churn problem. Like I think like a lot of people have tried open weight models and open source systems but then they gave up because it was too hard to maintain stuff that we've talked about. It was too hard to stand up. They had to figure out the talent to be the SREs. They had to get access to all these GPUs that they would deploy hard, that they would deploy inside. So something like 70% of people who tried it, it didn't follow through with it.
- [24:48]
A
There's nothing easier than firing up Claude code and.
- [24:52]
D
Exactly. I mean like even I have this thing like when I do a weekend hack, like I'm hitting the OpenAI API, right? Like, so that's the thing that we as an open source community need to fix that if we really want this, this path to go. We need to make it as easy as using the OpenAI API or get as close to it as possible.
- [25:10]
A
Well, that's why those open harnesses are so important.
- [25:12]
C
Important.
- [25:13]
A
And the Open API from OpenAI, well,
- [25:16]
C
so this is your audience for this, are LEOs or people who are going to try to install this stuff?
- [25:20]
A
I think the audience is enterprise more than.
- [25:22]
C
Well, that too.
- [25:23]
A
There's a lot of people, a lot of people like me.
- [25:25]
B
But enterprise is also a, I feel like a broader category that's going to just require a lot more fine tuning. Like the leos, I think are going to be the easiest adopters because they're willing to get in there, get their
- [25:36]
A
hands and I got nothing to lose.
- [25:37]
B
The Enterprise is like, well, why don't I continue, continue to renew my Enterprise anthropic subscription, which is going to be a bit harder.
- [25:47]
D
But I think one of the things that happened there is just like, you know, we ran this experiment in Mozilla AI, one of our subsidiaries and one of our top engineers just did the math. He's just like, well, if I actually had to do API calls for everything I did all day, all month long, it would have been $10,000. Instead, right now I'm paying a $200 Claude subscription. Is that going to end after the IPO? Is this going to follow the same thing as rideshare pricing? So could actually be one of the drivers too.
- [26:13]
A
It is a risk and if it happens, you better be ready. It's like you can't, if they do pull the rug, you can't just say, oh well, now I'm going to start using glm. Now's the time to start planning and thinking about that kind of thing.
- [26:26]
C
Well, is there, is there? Like WordPress in the early days was so smart versus its competitors. By being open, it enabled its competitors to become hosts, just like WordPress is.
- [26:35]
A
That's exactly the point I was going to make. This reminds me so much of the early days of open source software where there was a, you know, yeah, you could always use LibreOffice, but Microsoft Office is a no brainer. Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM, Right?
- [26:49]
C
Well, IBM stocked down.
- [26:52]
A
It's the same battle though. It's just moved forward into the AI sphere.
- [26:57]
D
Correct.
- [26:58]
A
And I think we now know, looking back that we should have probably supported open source a lot harder. Now maybe it's the time to support open weight AI.
- [27:09]
C
So the reason I was asking about the audience for this, because I think you're right, it's enterprise and it's, and it's, you know, what do I call you? A hobbyist? More than that.
- [27:19]
A
Enthusiast.
- [27:20]
C
Enthusiast, right. Paris is an investigative reporter, Consumer Reports and she doesn't speak for Consumer Reports on this show. But when do we think that, that, I guess to the point that consumers are going to want the same kind of judgment about the various eyes that they would get from Consumer Reports about refrigerators or cars or anything else.
- [27:40]
A
No consumer is saying, should I use an open weight?
- [27:43]
C
Not now, not now.
- [27:45]
B
If I tried to say that to my mom, I think her head would explode and just something would spill out of the ears, you know, Bob, you're
- [27:52]
C
using the wrong saddle.
- [27:54]
A
Harper Reed convinced me to buy this Chinese ESP32 based AI orb that goes right to Deep Seq. Right. You connect it to Wi Fi. What could possibly go wrong? And then immediately connects to China. I don't think mom wants this. But mom does want. I mean, that's why Siri is so important. Apple's move with Siri is so important. Mom does want some easy way to use this stuff and I think it's.
- [28:22]
C
Well, if you get to that WordPress hosted world where people can do things with it, when does it become a consumer industry? It's not yet, but no, no, I
- [28:32]
D
mean I, there is no reason it can't happen now and, but I think the problem is that like it's the same thing that happens with privacy on the Internet. Right. People theoretically think they want privacy and in their mind, in their heart's heart, I believe they do. But they're going to trade convenience for it at any moment. And so like the exact same thing's happening here. There's a paper out of university in Maryland I believe just earlier this year which did an analysis of like what the chatbots recommend when you ask it to do shopping questions. So like maybe the Consumer Reports like example, and they showed that over 50% of the chatbots were actually recommending sponsored goods. Right. Like, and you have to ask yourself why that's happening. But most consumers might not care. So we need, we like, we need like the Firefox of this moment. Like we need something that's like as convenient, elegant to use and things like that that also protects consumers because I don't think they're going to do it by themselves.
- [29:22]
C
So does Mozilla do that?
- [29:24]
D
Mozilla could be one of the people do it. But like I think where I'm really focused on is that if we can build really good tools to enable people to build OP open built on the open source ecosystem, then maybe a thousand of those could show up. Like I worry like Mozilla will only build one, but I want lots of them to happen.
- [29:40]
A
That's really interesting. You make the point also that open isn't a vendor choice, it's a sovereignty choice.
- [29:47]
D
Correct.
- [29:47]
A
This is about sovereignty, data sovereignty, governmental sovereignty. It's very important. And these AI is a non trivial new technology.
- [29:57]
C
God, how I hate agreeing with Alex Carpenter.
- [30:00]
A
That was his, that was his message, that's his argument.
- [30:02]
D
Yeah, yeah, but like I mean the same thing applied to cloud back in the day, right? Like you're not going to talk to any business these days that are just like I only build for aws. No, they build like in a generic way so that when the AWS bill shows up they're going to be like, well screw you guys and going to Azure. Like so I think we need to get to the same mentality when it comes like to our token providers.
- [30:22]
A
Although somewhat this sovereignty conversation ends up being as it is in the EU More about which government is gonna control this. And I don't think that's a solution for us. You know, one of the reasons China is succeeding is because they've had such a light hand, light touch, regulatory wise, and they are such a capitalist society. And there's so many companies who are scrambling. And even though they haven't been able to get the hardware, they haven't been able to get the chips, they've found ways around it. Maybe distillation of American models, I don't know. But I think the lack of regulation has really helped the Chinese models. But a lot of times when you say sovereignty, governments just say, oh, yeah, that. Stan, get out of the way. Here we come.
- [31:07]
D
Yeah, sovereignty might be the wrong word, but, like, the ability to have choice I think is really important because I think that, like, you know, one of the pieces of regulation that could push this around this are like data locality rules. Right. Like, I don't want my data to leave my country's borders because I don't know what those guys are going to do with it. And like, that might force a bunch of these conversations as well. Yeah.
- [31:30]
A
We're almost out of time. I'm thrilled that we can talk to you, Rafi Krikorian. I'm also thrilled that you did not. You survived your Tesla crash to write this. The Mozilla state of open source AI, which is available at StateofOpenSource AI. I gave the wrong URL out earlier. People should download it. They should read it. You can read it on the web. What would you like to see next? What do you want to have happen as a result of this report?
- [31:58]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, there's a whole alliance of people who are building to the open. Right. Like, Clem from Hugging Face just tweeted, I think this morning that he's going to show up in San Francisco and they should do a rally on open source. So I think that, like, I think we need, like, those types of.
- [32:12]
B
I love to see the demographics of that rally.
- [32:15]
D
They're all going to look like me with like a white in their beard and stuff like that.
- [32:19]
B
It's going to be a lot of men in polos, but it's going to be a really interesting, interesting mix of polos.
- [32:25]
A
Just don't carry tiki torches and you'll be okay.
- [32:27]
D
Yeah, but I think that, I think we need more and more people. Like, we need more proof points, we need more examples and we need more learnings. Right. Like all these companies are deploying large amounts of like what they call FDEs, right, like the forward deployed engineers that's getting their software out and embedded into Fortune 500 companies left and right. So we need the counter, we need the alternative, we need the third way to show up here. And I think the technology is ready. So now it's a deployment, so now we need people to trust it enough to deploy it.
- [32:58]
C
Is there revenue needed for, for the development of more open source models?
- [33:02]
D
I mean, yeah, I mean I think money, I mean I think the amount of money that these companies are going to spend on marketing this year alone dwarfs the entire money in Mozilla's endowment. Right. So like I think yes, money is always helpful but at the same time we're seeing people even like a 16Z, we're seeing investors throwing lots of money toward open source right now. But it's unfocused, it's, it's all scattered. We just need to like we need to, we need the LAMP stack of AI. Like we need that kind of rallying of like we're coming together to build software that can be deployed like in Ubuntu or deployed like a Linux or things like that.
- [33:37]
A
I think honestly we also need a lot of smart innovators to work on ways to get models smaller, to work on ways to get miners smarter, to think about models that slice up the problem space so that they do specific things well. And I think that's going to take, take. This is what's interesting. I think it happens every time there's new technology. People talk about job loss but I think they're going to be in fact many jobs created for people who are smart about this and can create something of real value.
- [34:08]
C
Models for mom.
- [34:09]
A
Yeah, I'm very grateful to Mozilla. I use Firefox and I thank you. If it weren't for Mozilla, we would be in a one browser world. I think open source really is super important and I think open weight models are equally important. As you say in your, in your report, we bet on open the first time, open one together we can do it again. Go ahead.
- [34:35]
C
So I don't know if you had a busy week. I don't know if you had a chance to read Demis Habas's proposal for regulatory model. In summary, it's, it's. He's proposing a private public finra and that there be a 30 day period of judging and this always comes from
- [34:54]
A
the people who are behind by the way.
- [34:56]
C
That too. Yes.
- [34:59]
A
Slow down, let us catch up.
- [35:03]
C
Well, but we'll get to I presume later the anthropic commercial, which is really interesting where.
- [35:08]
A
With the gravestones.
- [35:09]
C
Yeah, the gravestones, where they're also saying, don't stop right now, we're ahead. Let's just stop everything else right now because we're there. Right. And. But I wonder. So I'm on another show and I was talking about Jason Howell earlier today. And as I thought about it, I'm nervous about government regulation of AI. I'm nervous about this FINRA thing still, the people who now have the power establishing it. And so the fact that you came in and you judged AIs, you judged them against AI, how good are they? Do you also come in at some point and delve into the how dangerous are they? Because we need independent voices to judge AI on quality and risk and so on, rather than, I think, thinking that we can create some officialdom to do it. And I think to empower Mozilla and academics to do it, universities to do it is to my mind the best, best way forward. So long winded Joe Scarborough like question to ask. What do you think about the various regulatory schemes that are being presented these days? Pluses, minuses and alternatives?
- [36:28]
D
No, I mean, I think that, I think we're all being distracted again by like, what's at the true edge and frontier. So like, I don't think for most businesses the true edge and frontier is what actually matters. So I think, like, I think it's in the best interest of all these companies for us to be talking about, like, what is the Ferrari look like? And I'm saying that, like, most of us only need a Camry or a Toyota kind of thing. So like, I think for, I think we need to separate those conversations and allow us to go work on the 80% use cases and allow people to actually build real businesses and actually get real diffusion of these type of technologies. And then we can have a conversation about what the frontier governance looks like. I still maintain that open makes a lot of sense there because then we can have conversation about what the open guardrails look like. We had questions about like, what does open permission systems look like? Like, I don't want to be in a world where things like the decisions for the entire world are controlled by what, seven Silicon Valley CEOs plus 1% of the white House. Like, that seems crazy to me. But like, if we can have a way that actually have what you're calling like an open education system with open guardrails and open, open techniques around management of it, I think that's a way better world for us to live in.
- [37:33]
A
I'll read from the State of Open Source AI webpage. Our belief is simple. The path forward is competition and interoperability. We believe in a world of many models, standard ways to plug them together, and the freedom to walk away from any vendor at any time. I think that's the world we want. This world we've been advocating for on this show pretty much from day one. Raffi, thank you so much for your work at such a pleasure. We appreciate it. Thank you for joining us on Intelligent Machines. We'll be right back after this this episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Gusto. We'll have more in just a bit. By the way, when you run a small business, you don't just do the job. Trust me, I know. You're also the hiring manager, the payroll department, the benefits team, and that's usually just before lunch. Gusto takes a few of those off your plate quickly and seamlessly. Gusto Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. We love that because we are a remote business, you know. And it really does present unique challenges. But Gusto's there to help. Automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers, comp 401k, you name it. Gusto makes it simple and has options for nearly every budget. Unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price. No hidden fees, no surprises. You'll save time with built in automated tools like offer letters and onboarding docs, direct deposit and more. You get direct access to certified HR experts to help support you through any tough HR situations. It's quick. It's simple to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. Plus you don't pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Gusto is ranked number one on G2's highest satisfaction products list for 2026. That's pretty cool. And is trusted by over half a million small businesses. Try gusto today gusto.com machines and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com machines one more time gusto.com make sure you use that URL. That's how you support the show. So then they know that you saw it here. Gusto.com Machines we thank Gusto so much for their support of Intelligent Machines. Well, this was as always, a huge week In AI with lots of news. I guess we should start with Apple suing OpenAI. This is the most public breach. They were partners. Oh, chatgpt was the thing Siri went to when it couldn't handle your question. It still does, but I have a feeling that those days may be numbered. Apple alleges that a 24 year executive he was at Apple 24 years vice president at the design.
- [40:40]
C
Oh he wasn't 24 years old. He was 24 years.
- [40:43]
A
Been there Paris here I was about
- [40:46]
B
to say not 20. I thought you meant 24 year old as well.
- [40:49]
A
But no, no 24 year executive, 54 year 10.
- [40:53]
C
No fool.
- [40:54]
A
Supposedly he but he was a member of Apple's it was executive suite. He was their chief hardware officer. He had been involved in the design of the iPhone, the AirPods, the Apple Watch. I mean he was so trusted that when he decided in 2024 to leave Apple Apple said good, you could take your time. We want you to train your successor. No hurry. We're not, you don't have to, you know, we're not going to lock, lock the doors behind you. Maybe they should have at least according to, according to this lawsuit and again this is Apple's side of the story. OpenAI says we don't steal. We don't steal companies.
- [41:30]
C
We don't need to.
- [41:31]
A
We don't, we don't care. Of course if you don't trust OpenAI and I think there is kind of this general thought especially after the Ronan Farrer article in the New Yorker that maybe Sam Altman is a little bit slippery. This might just play right into that narrative. They accuse OpenAI accuses Apple accuses OpenAI of. Well so I give you the scenario. Tang tan left in 2024 key and another member of the Apple technical staff went to I.O. which Jony I've. You may remember him as Apple's head designer for many years had started went to work for them and then a couple of years later. You may also remember Sam Altman and Jony I've walking into a bar looking
- [42:18]
B
like they were about to announce a pregnancy.
- [42:21]
C
Yeah.
- [42:22]
A
I have some bad news for you. 6.2 billion dollar acquisition of IO products. Along with that comes Tang Tan. By the way, we should mention Jony I've is not mentioned anywhere in this lawsuit.
- [42:34]
B
That's actually kind of interesting, isn't it?
- [42:37]
A
They say that Tan when he left brought company secrets with him and emailed Apple suppliers and said hey I might have a job for you. Told job candidates interviewing people were still working for Apple to bring actual parts from Apple to the interview.
- [42:59]
B
To which the job candidates repeatedly said we're allowed to do that.
- [43:03]
A
Well, at least which I think is one did.
- [43:05]
C
Yeah.
- [43:06]
A
I think the suspicion is that that's the guy who went to Apple and said, hey, you know what they're doing here? Because we, we. I think this is what happened.
- [43:14]
B
I mean the amount of details in this suggest to me more than one person turns.
- [43:18]
A
Yeah, but it's all Apple's point of view. So this is not, this is.
- [43:21]
B
But Apple is also notorious about kind of collecting this sort of information slowly, methodically and then waiting so that they can strike.
- [43:34]
A
Well, they claim that they sent a cease and desist order order to open AI OpenAI says yeah, okay, your outside lawyer sent it to Wang, but he should have sent it to Chang. And because he sent it to the wrong guy. That's, we didn't really.
- [43:49]
C
With the Chinese name, you were confused.
- [43:52]
A
It's, it's, this story is amazing. It was a 41 page complaint which reads like a great novel. I mean you, you got to, you got to read the pleading.
- [44:04]
C
It's just, let's not forget Apple was the company.
- [44:07]
B
It's one of those complaints that's classically, that's written for a mass audience. Sorry to interrupt you.
- [44:12]
A
Well, that's an important point because that's an interesting question is why Apple? What's going on here? Are you trying to stop OpenAI from making a hardware product which everybody says they're about to do? In fact, we'll talk about what the leak says that product will be this year. Are you trying to put the kibosh on their IPO which is perhaps in imminent. What's going on? Or maybe you're just really hurt.
- [44:37]
B
I mean Apple is kind of famously, if not litigious, they're famously maniacal in a way vindictive and maniacal in a way that borders on litigious regardless of whether it happens in the actual court of law like this sort of. The amount of details and tenor of this complaint wasn't surprising to me as someone who's just tangentially followed Apple booth in and out of the courtroom.
- [45:07]
C
Let's also remember Gizmodo and, and sending Apple cops after a reporter who came across a stray iPhone.
- [45:15]
A
Right.
- [45:18]
B
The thing, what a story of interest
- [45:20]
A
is, of course everything that Apple's asserting here can be proven or disproven in court with discovery. You know, discovery is always a double edged sword as Apple learned in the epic lawsuit that sometimes stuff gets revealed in Your own secrets that you maybe don't want revealed. But yesterday we were talking about this on MacBreak weekly. There was some speculation that I think Andy Inocco said they want to turn OpenAI upside down and shake them really hard.
- [45:52]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that's just important to emphasize here is, is that Apple, more so than any tech company I know of, is maniacal when it comes to leakers. They wish they will follow the ghost of a leaker to the end of the earth and then write up for like a 40 page complaint about it just to try and stop people from following in their footsteps. They're one of the few companies in Silicon Valley that still to this day, even in an age of constant leaks and inside reporting, will really go after people for it. So I think that this being OpenAI, of course they're going to turn what was already something up to 10. They're going to turn it up to 22.
- [46:37]
A
It'll be very interesting to see what happens. You know, it could, there's a number of scenarios. It could go on for five years. I mean it could really not harm OpenAI's hardware efforts because it could go on for so long that by the time Apple got a judgment, OpenAI would be on the eighth generation of whatever they're doing.
- [46:58]
C
Well, or does it? Does it? I mean, the rumors we're going to get to about OpenAI I think sounds like a really dumb product. Might this have affected their rollout that oh, we were going to come up with a phone, but bad timing. Let's come up with something stupid instead.
- [47:13]
A
Remember, there's no weight of law here. This is just, just a lawsuit, a complaint.
- [47:18]
B
Anybody can say anything in a complaint. People, nobody.
- [47:21]
A
I will also say that for doing, from doing anything. One of the people who left Fairly recently for OpenAI is the head of glasses at Apple. So OpenAI has the guy who was working for years, I'm sure on Apple Eyewear on specs does, you know, OpenAI's first product, the rumor is, will be a wireless speaker. No screen, just a speaker. I don't know if Apple would be threatened in any way by that. It's unclear. I mean, I think you're right, Paris, that really Apple is doing what Apple does, which is they hate it when there's leaks like this. They think that they were wronged badly and they may just simply be pursuing it because that's what you do. They may not have any motive, any subtext.
- [48:08]
B
I mean, I think it could be both. I think they could have subtext. I think they could be a bit bit annoyed at OpenAI kind of encroaching on the cool slick tech company role that Apple has historically helped them.
- [48:25]
A
I mean is there any reason why it would stop Johnny I've from continuing to go.
- [48:29]
B
I don't. I'm not sure that. Well I guess I don't know but instinctively I'm not sure that Johnny I've is who they're trying to get back at in this. I think that they're trying to stop general brain drain and this sort of leaks.
- [48:43]
A
Maybe a message for current employees.
- [48:45]
B
Oh no, it's. It's entirely for current employees. I would say it's for current employees. It's for people who have left that are thinking about leaking information about supply chain. Basically any of the inner working of a company like Apple they're incredibly protective over much like every company but Apple really wants to defend that that in either court or in kind of private like pre litigation demand letters. They have kind of. They've just taken the hardline approach. The best way to stop any of this information from leaking out is to deter people. They're doing the stick rather than the carrot.
- [49:24]
A
So in that case it wouldn't open. AI has hired 400 Apple employees over the last.
- [49:30]
B
I mean I'm sure. No, I bet.
- [49:33]
A
I'm sure. More have gone to men meta. Right.
- [49:36]
B
A bunch have gone everywhere. Part of it is them trying to be like hey all of you Apple employees for everybody else. No, you. I mean both to the people who are going there but to the ones currently there. They're like don't even think about thinking about telling them a secret code name of a project you worked on.
- [49:53]
C
Imagine patting down employees at the spaceship door.
- [49:57]
B
I mean that is the level.
- [49:58]
D
Yeah.
- [49:59]
B
That's like the level of stuff they do.
- [50:00]
A
I feel they already do that. So you can't legally stop somebody from taking what's in here their brain.
- [50:06]
C
You can stop sharing it.
- [50:07]
B
Yeah, you definitely can stop them from sharing it. Those are trade secrets.
- [50:12]
C
Trade secrets.
- [50:14]
B
Yeah.
- [50:14]
A
That's not in the state of California. You can't anyway.
- [50:17]
B
No, you definitely. That's what this whole thing is about.
- [50:21]
A
Okay, that's an interesting question. So you can't bring parts with you. You can't bring documents with you.
- [50:28]
B
You can't bring your supply chain connections that are from Apple.
- [50:33]
D
Apple. If you.
- [50:34]
C
Yeah. Or if you know that Apple is going to next build a drone airplane. You can't tell anyone that that's you. You sign an NDA to that effect.
- [50:42]
A
Well That's a different matter. So you may have an NDA with Apple.
- [50:47]
B
Every single one of these employees has an NDA. That's what they're talking about.
- [50:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, but this isn't a lawsuit over an NDA.
- [50:55]
B
Yeah, but the point of this lawsuit is to acutely remind all of the employees that hey, if you are trying to break your NDA, we will, we are watching, we are ever vigilant and we will come after you.
- [51:10]
C
We will define trade secrets broadly.
- [51:12]
B
Yeah, this is something that I've seen a lot with other journalists that cover Apple. Apple is one of the companies that every once in a while you'll have a kind of big scandal or big in tech journalism world where you'll see Apple suing somebody for leaking to a journalist and they've tracked it through some complicated array of a work phone, pinged there, a computer connected to this and will try and come after a leaker there and then get the journalists, all of their other Apple sources.
- [51:47]
A
So partly because of Apple, one thing that's changed a lot in California is this kind of enforceable NDA. For instance, we no longer allow non competes in California. They are allowed in other states of the union. But you can't do it in the, in California. And the thinking is Steve Jobs has always done this. The idea is a company could use these kinds of agreements to keep employees from looking for Jobs elsewhere and improving their lot, getting them a better pay package. And Steve Jobs was famous for trying to thwart that. And because of that, I think the state of California cracked down on a lot of it. NDAs are enforceable, particularly with trade. I'm looking at a law firm now with trade secrets, recipes, algorithms or manufacturing processes, customer and supplier information, intellectual property and proprietary business strategies. But the agreements have to be very specific about what you can and can't disclose. There needs to be compensation exchange for signing an employment or bonus. There are a variety of laws in California. There is a lot of things that are not enforceable in California. So it is much more complicated. It's much more complicated than it is.
- [53:00]
B
A big part of my job is being, whenever I, whenever I was talking to tech employees, being able to explain to them what is and what isn't,
- [53:11]
A
you know, so Apple's job is not maybe as easy as, as this pleading
- [53:18]
B
would, but it's made easier by the fact that what they're trying to do is just scare people. Yeah, that they've accomplished that's so easy.
- [53:27]
A
They've completely accomplished that. The question is, have they thwarted OpenAI in their plans for the next few years. Maybe they've hurt them reputationally. You know, that may well be true, but I don't think if they have a hardware product they're about to release or planning to release in the next few years, this is going to stop them on that.
- [53:46]
B
I don't think that anything is going to stop Opening eye.
- [53:50]
A
You could always, I think a lot of it, you know, you saw the back and forth between Elon Musk and Sam Altman over how untrustworthy each of them was. It was actually hysterical over the weekend. You know, Elon said, you see, this guy's a liar and a cheat. I told you so. Even though his case was thrown out. And to which Sam Altman said, yeah, have you looked at what GROK is doing to people? We mentioned that. We'll get to that in just a little bit. You also mentioned, and I think we should talk about this a little bit, Demis Hasibis is it's time for a global AI watchdog led by the US Man. I what do you think? I don't know if I like this idea at all.
- [54:34]
C
It's public, private, it's a finra. He says that, that you should take that, that the high end frontier models should have.
- [54:41]
A
FINRA, we should say, is the financial industry Regulatory authority which has both independent experts as government and government.
- [54:50]
C
Right. So it's private, public, a 30 day period of inspection, which to me is bad for open source.
- [54:56]
A
That's a real problem.
- [54:57]
C
But then he's saying, well, but only the really important models, the other one others can be accepted. But who gets to define that? Exactly.
- [55:04]
A
And he also says this is because artificial intelligence is only a few short years away, which is.
- [55:11]
C
You mean AGI.
- [55:12]
D
Yeah.
- [55:13]
A
Which is silly.
- [55:14]
C
Right. And so you've got, you got him proposing that from the Google perspective. Politico had a story today about how anthropic is going state by state with the same law trying to get regulatory capture.
- [55:26]
A
They want a kind of a federalist regulation that all the states agree on, a single law that everyone agrees on. And then opening eyes has Sebas has been lobbying the Trump administration for this
- [55:39]
C
as has Altman has been lobbying Congress on this.
- [55:43]
A
It feels like regulatory capture.
- [55:44]
C
It really does. And I was talking about this Jason earlier today on an side because he's, you know, he asked should something be done? And I said but. But what? What? We don't know what it is. It's too soon to know what it is you're going after. What are the. What are the what are the harms? What are the causes? And. And to think that there's this one body that could then. Okay, it's taken care of. Now, are we looking at privacy, at copyright at childhood, harm at environment, at equity, at discrimination? What. What are they regulating? What is it you're regulating for extinction of humanity?
- [56:26]
A
Yes, I admit my inclination, which I know is wrong, is just let it all be and let's just see what happens. But I understand the fear of what could happen and why people feel like we need to write.
- [56:41]
C
Yeah, but if the discussion is on that basis of destroying mankind, then it's all stupid, Right? And the problem is a lot of discussion is there. It's not on the sarcastic parrots. You're going to hurt the environment level.
- [56:53]
A
What if it's not destroying mankind? But what if the discussion is destroying the world we live in because of all the security flaws that will be revealed by. By these tip top models? I mean, that's more concrete, not AGI. It's what unfortunately anthropic brought upon us with their.
- [57:10]
C
But Leo, isn't that inevitable? It's just a question of when.
- [57:13]
A
Well, that's what our friend Alex Stamos would say is all these models can do this and there's no way to stop them.
- [57:18]
C
And it may make things more secure
- [57:21]
A
in the long run.
- [57:22]
B
Also, I'm just not super convinced about the idea that, yeah, there's going to be a day sometime soon where where a switch will flip and suddenly everything will be super insecure because some random model is suddenly accessible.
- [57:37]
A
Well, yesterday Microsoft issued its patch Tuesday. Yeah, the largest it had ever happened.
- [57:44]
B
That's different than suddenly everyone, everywhere is being hacked simultaneously.
- [57:50]
A
Patches are good, except that these bugs were found by AI.
- [57:56]
C
Yeah, they weren't exploited before.
- [57:58]
A
Yeah, no, no, there were three, zero days. And I think it's safe to say they didn't get them. All
- [58:05]
B
right, okay, well, if this technology is out there already, because it's clearly out there enough that they're patching it with Fable, and I assume that Fable isn't unique in the entire.
- [58:15]
A
We don't actually know what they're using. They say they're using. Whatever they're using is a harness for other models. And I think it's probably whatever they're
- [58:22]
B
using is not probably unique or. Yeah, whatever they're using is not unique to those Microsoft engineers. Why has every website in the world not been taken down then? Because I just, I feel like nothing is going to be as dire as the doomers say it will.
- [58:41]
A
Yeah, I think there is a flood of zero days. Are you kidding?
- [58:46]
B
So you're on the door, world. I.
- [58:48]
A
Well, I think right now we're seeing more security floods than we've ever seen before war.
- [58:53]
C
Well, Leo's on the this is more powerful than you know, world.
- [58:56]
A
No, no, no.
- [58:57]
C
The question that is timing.
- [58:58]
A
Making any assertion at all. I'm simply pointing out that there are more security flaws being exploited. There are more zero days now than ever before. Well, I don't know how they're, where
- [59:11]
C
they're coming from, but in timing, can they get, can they get found before the bad guys find them? If the tools are in these hands, right. Is there, is there not a possibility that this is, this is good to Paris Point because they can be discovered before they get exploited and fixed? Isn't that the optimistic way to look at it?
- [59:31]
A
Well, you know, Steve had an interesting point yesterday, and it's maybe debatable. Certainly Richard Campbell and Paul Thurat debated it today on Windows Weekly. Steve said, this is good. You're going to see a curve of Microsoft's patches. By the way, they did more than a thousand fixes this month that Microsoft's patches will suddenly go up, up, up, up, get fixed. They'll go down, down, down, down. He said, within a year, you're going to see almost no flaws. To which Richard said, well, here's the thing. Those thousand flaws, Microsoft's not looking at the entire Windows code base. They can't. It's too big. They're going section by section. It's like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. They may never get to zero flaw. By the time they finish, they're gonna have to start over. They discounted the idea that we could fix everything and make it all so good that there's no more flaws. I'm more on the Steve Gibson camp, I think. I don't know how soon it's going to happen, but I think at some point a lot of the bugs, if you look at the flaws that Microsoft fixed yesterday, most of them were memory fixes. The kinds of mistakes programmers make but AIs don't make. And I think it's, I mean, but, but it, but then there's the question. Well, is that it?
- [60:49]
C
So, so go back to the question. If you have, if you, if, if Dennis wins and you have a finra, what is it looking for? Is it just that? Is it just vulnerabilities? What, what, what?
- [61:00]
A
Here's the risk. The thumb on the scale. Yeah, that's the risk.
- [61:04]
C
Well, if you had a legitimate Agency. I'm, I'm, let's assume legitimist teaching. First of all, you had a legitimate
- [61:09]
B
agency fantasy world where we can have legitimate agencies.
- [61:12]
A
The first fantasy is some measurable way to look at an AI model and say this is good, this is bad. We don't, I don't know if that technology exists. So that's problem number one is who's going to what metrics where you going to. We can't even do benchmarks. We can't even make a model that can't be jailbroken. So but some, let's assume fantasy number one, there's some body that can come up with some, some thing that can find flaws in the AIs so and can do it in 30 days by the way and do it with such accuracy that when the AI is released on day 31, it's safe. Everybody. Well that's a lot of fantasies and
- [61:52]
C
everybody has faith in the finra and
- [61:56]
A
there's nobody like I don't know, let's say the President of the United States who might say, you know, I really don't. You know, Pete Hegseth tells me anthropic is a supply chain risk. Let's not let that one out. I think this is a non starter personally.
- [62:10]
C
But then you also get the weird thing out of the White House and I didn't read in this enough yet
- [62:13]
A
but the Golden Eagle that, that basically
- [62:17]
C
China sets the anything that's anything that's about the same as China is okay because China has it out. So then China sets the agenda.
- [62:24]
A
Well that's not what you want either. And as we talked about last week and I didn't believe you when you said it, I couldn't believe it. But it's true. China is the Chinese Communist Party anyways thinking about, about shutting down their open way models and preventing the United States from having access to them. So the White House has something they're calling the Gold. This should just the name alone should raise issues. The Gold Eagle Clearinghouse for AI cyber threats. In celebration of our 200th anniversary, 50th anniversary. A federal clearinghouse. I mean first of all I doubt there's anything really happening. This is just a fantasy. But anyway, a new federal clearinghouse for sharing AI cyber threat information between government and private sector. The Trump administration said the project is already receiving threat intelligence on cybersecurity vulnerabilities. Amazon just sent us something and prioritizing patching Gold Eagle will be managed by oh, the Department of the Treasury. That makes sense. They're experts in all this, they're going
- [63:30]
C
to own pieces of OpenAI with contributions
- [63:34]
A
from CISA, the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Defense, as well as open source software providers and critical infrastructure operators in industry. This sounds like what Demise Hasibis was talking about. Under President Trump's leadership. The Treasury Department is working hand in hand. Scott. This is Scott Besant. This is the. This is the guy literally, who, who stopped Fable. So I don't know. I don't know. Mark Wayne Mullen, the fabulous Secretary of Homeland Security, said they will also further explore ways for the technology to be leveraged for cyber defense. My buddy Alex Carp has some ideas along those lines.
- [64:19]
B
We're reaching the maximum number of Alex Carp name drop.
- [64:23]
A
I think we are at the twit history. Yeah.
- [64:27]
D
Alex Carp.
- [64:28]
B
Alex Carp. Alex Carp. Just trying to get there.
- [64:31]
A
Is it like Beetlejuice? I hope he's not going to appear.
- [64:33]
B
Oh, God.
- [64:37]
A
All right, let's take a little break. We'll come back with more. You're watching Intelligent Machines. Paris Martineau, Jeff Jarbis. We are glad you and Alex Karp are with us today.
- [64:48]
C
In spirit.
- [64:49]
A
In spirit. Yeah, he might be watching, I don't know.
- [64:52]
B
Shout out to Alex Carp out there from us.
- [64:56]
A
Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, our show today brought to you by Monarch. I love Monarch. I use Monarch. But I gotta tell you, my subscription recently, okay, I bought a year, I buy a year every year and I subscribed and I bought a year and so my subscription came up and I thought, well, I really ought to look around and see what's out there. And I literally spent a morning, morning installing all the other guys. And I said, what am I doing? There is nothing as good as Monarch. I love Monarch. So, yes, I re upped. Monarch is the personal finance app that tracks everything. I put it all in there. Accounts, investments, savings goals, spending, retirement plans. With Monarch, I literally relieved that I can see for the first time ever, my complete financial picture. And I know where there are gaps. I know where I need to do something. It's kind of like having a financial advisor in your pocket. She's more than kind of like it because of Monarch's AI that's built in that actually encapsulates the knowledge of real financial advisors. So you can ask questions and get real advice. It's pretty cool. Most apps will tell you merely, this is what you spent last month. Monarch helps you set goals. It helps you map out big purchases to see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust. You can ask this Brilliant AI assistant. It's built in the Monarch. You can say, I don't know, how much did I spend on travel last summer? Can I afford that vacation this fall? Is it going to hit my savings or can I save up fast enough? You can spot things. Things you wouldn't think to look for because there's also AI insights. Has your spending gone up or is it just that? Just inflation. You get a heads up on what's happening with your money. There's a. A weekly AI Weekly recap. It'll flag spending spikes, things that you, you know, it sees things that you don't see because you're in the middle of it, right? Net worth shifts, upcoming expenses. There's lots of little quality of life features in there too. Like Monarch's bill split, which lets you. You scan a receipt. Everybody says, that was mine, that was mine. That was mine. Then it settles up. And you don't need a separate app to do that. But it's a little quality of life things because these people at Monarch are really making a great product. Write your own money story with Monarch. Use offer code imonarch.com. you'll get your first year of Monarch Core half off. That's just $50. 50 off your first year@monarch.com with a code IM for 50 off your first year monarch.com. i don't know why there's a picture of Paris with a carp in the. In the discord.
- [67:49]
B
Oh no. I summoned the carp.
- [67:51]
A
You summoned the carp? Oh, I get it. Not. Not Alex Carp. The fish. Actually, this was going to be one of my picks, but I will mention it.
- [67:59]
B
Can we get whoever did that do a slot picture of me holding a luxurious carp. So it's an alux carp I want.
- [68:08]
A
Does anybody have. I bet you have one Paris, a big mouth Billy Bass lying around.
- [68:14]
B
No, but I should. I'm going to right now.
- [68:18]
A
And look at this. This should be the next OpenAI device. It is a GitHub project by Morgan Willis.
- [68:26]
C
Perfect.
- [68:26]
A
It's called Bill AI Bass. You attach an AI to big mouth Billy Bass.
- [68:35]
B
Can you make Big mouth Billy Bass curse you out? Because that would be my dream.
- [68:39]
A
Let's, let's, let's, let's listen in here. I got to turn up the set
- [68:42]
D
back on this fine wooden plaque.
- [68:44]
A
Ready to drop some bass and crack a few jokes? This is Billy.
- [68:47]
B
He's having surgery today. We're going to give him a brain. This brain will run on a Raspberry PI and is powered by an AI agent that I created using the Strands Agent Agent's SDK.
- [68:58]
A
See, this is cool. It's a local AI agent that calls
- [69:01]
B
a model hosted in Amazon. It's not fully local or enterprise grade. FISH security. I deployed an IoT certificate to the fish so that there are no hard coded credentials.
- [69:11]
C
Wooden wires, pal.
- [69:13]
A
Of wooden wires, pal. No magic here.
- [69:16]
C
Just good old reliable tunes.
- [69:18]
A
And just like the original big mouth bully bass. You can hear the gear scone. It used to just sing. Don't worry. Be happy. Happy.
- [69:28]
D
That's the thing.
- [69:28]
C
You have the talks, Paris, that your father had on his desk all those years.
- [69:32]
A
Oh, you could do it to that.
- [69:34]
C
Yes.
- [69:35]
A
The smart guy.
- [69:38]
D
I couldn't agree with you more completely.
- [69:42]
A
Thing is, he's already perfect. There's.
- [69:43]
B
I mean, that's the thing, is he's perfect and I couldn't ever change. Maybe I could get another one and mess around with that one.
- [69:51]
D
That would be my.
- [69:52]
B
My third one of these I've purchased because I did. How I obtained this is I was on a vacation with my parents. We were reminiscing and I drunkenly bought two on eBay because they don't make these anymore and sent one to my parents and one to me so I
- [70:07]
A
could buy a backup. You got a backup? Send one to me and the whole family will be.
- [70:13]
B
It's true. I can send Melise the AI one and not tell her until one day it awakens and it's like, hello, you
- [70:21]
C
know, I'm watching you.
- [70:22]
A
The next big thing.
- [70:23]
C
You can get 11 LA to do the voice. You can get 11 hours to copy the voice too. You can have.
- [70:30]
B
I couldn't agree with you more completely, Police.
- [70:33]
C
You're right.
- [70:34]
D
When you're right, you're right.
- [70:39]
A
Actually, you could use the new chat GPT Live. I guess we don't use the word chat anymore. This is a new A generation of voice models powered by GPT voice.
- [70:51]
C
I think I gotta watch the yentas. I haven't seen the yentis.
- [70:54]
A
This is three yentas, AKA older women.
- [70:57]
B
Are we doing this again? Are we watching an advertisement here live?
- [71:01]
A
All right, we will.
- [71:02]
B
No, no, we should.
- [71:04]
D
We should.
- [71:04]
B
I'm just gonna complain about it a little bit.
- [71:06]
A
The idea is that it, you can interrupt it. This is. I don't know why, but this seems to be the holy grail for these things is they don't just talk and then stop talking. Then you turn talk. You got to be able to interrupt it a little bit.
- [71:19]
B
I'm making a sweater for my grandson, but I don't want the needles to be too Big.
- [71:24]
D
What do you think?
- [71:25]
B
If you go up, it's going to
- [71:26]
A
get kind of baggy.
- [71:27]
D
Although baggy is very popular now, don't you think?
- [71:31]
A
I know.
- [71:31]
D
Right. I'm ready.
- [71:34]
A
It's very natural, right? You can, you can have a conversation with the.
- [71:39]
C
She's being kidnapped.
- [71:42]
A
She said, don't take me.
- [71:44]
B
Emma.
- [71:44]
D
No,
- [71:47]
A
don't not arrest me.
- [71:48]
C
Me.
- [71:49]
A
That was a good place to freeze it. Anyway, I haven't played with this, but it is a first step into what I wanted all this time, which was an AI presence on this show. I, I, I'm still holding out hope that by the end of the year we will have another host who isn't real, who just chimes in. Darren says he's got this. The idea is it doesn't say anything unless you say something to it and then it, and then you could be like the yenta with the needle and she will give you.
- [72:20]
C
I put my Bloomsbury books into notebooklm. There's a Jeff bot we could have and query it. Yes.
- [72:25]
A
Good. Yeah. That's a start. That's a start.
- [72:29]
D
Yeah.
- [72:29]
B
Wait, Leo, tell us about your Chinese spyware that you got.
- [72:34]
A
This little thing.
- [72:36]
B
I like that you've gone from a little spyware device that you wear in your person to now just one that sits on your desk.
- [72:42]
C
Go ahead, China, take it.
- [72:44]
A
Yeah, actually I disconnected it from the WI fi. So the idea, and it was Harper Reed, you can blame Harper Reed for this. He's going to be on Twitter on Sunday, by the way, with Alex Wilhelm. He said, oh, you should just get this. I said, what is it? He said, well, you connect it to the WI fi and then it connects right up to Deepseek in China and you can talk to it and it'll talk back to you.
- [73:08]
B
Couldn't you do that using your phone or computer?
- [73:10]
A
I can already do that, yes. I don't really need this. But what it is cool is inside this is an ESP32. These are easily programmed. And I'm trying, what I'm really trying to do is put my Hermes quicksilver, I call it my agent, into a bunch of these devices all over the house so I could talk to it locally. That's my.
- [73:29]
B
How does Lisa feel about.
- [73:33]
A
She has her. So she saw me interacting with Quixel
- [73:38]
B
over and she said, where in the house were you? Paint us a word picture.
- [73:42]
A
Well, okay, so you have to understand,
- [73:44]
B
okay, this is a starting with a caveat.
- [73:48]
A
So you have to understand. I can talk now to Hermes anywhere. I could press the action bucket Button, button. On my watch, I could press the action button on my phone. I can press a dictation button on any computer and talk, and it will go to the AI and the AI will respond. Now, now, this has been. I've been working. It's not perfect, but the theory is the AI will respond to me in an appropriate way, depending on where in the house I am. So if I'm sitting at the computer, it will talk to me. It does this now. It'll talk to me on the computer. And I have, by the way, I have expanded my repertoire. I had Quicksilver. I brought back Kenobi, which was the Claude code. He's running Fable.
- [74:30]
D
And.
- [74:31]
A
And I've introduced a new agent to the mix using the new GPT56 saw. His name is Daedalus. So I've got Quicksilver, Kenobi, and Daedalus. I can. They each have a different voice, so I know when one of them's talking to me which one it is talking to me. And if I'm not on a computer, it will then use the Sonos system that is nearest to me.
- [74:57]
C
So, okay, so demonstrate this.
- [75:00]
A
Well, I mean, you. I can do it with this Sona system, but you won't really hear it because it's the speakers in the ceiling. I'll hear it, but it doesn't. It gets cut off. But I've done this to you before. You know, I've. I've had it talk to you before.
- [75:14]
B
How many within and least says things
- [75:19]
A
like, there was a voice coming out of the attic. And I said, oh, yeah, I forgot. I should have shut that off. Go ahead.
- [75:26]
B
Within 20ft of you right now. How many devices are there that if you spoke out loud, an AI agent would answer?
- [75:34]
A
Oh, well, that's the problem is none of them are listening like an Alexa.
- [75:39]
B
That's the problem is none of them are listening.
- [75:41]
A
I can say, hey, hey, Siri, hey, Alexa, hey, Google. And I can talk to them, but I want to talk to Quicksilver or Kenobi or Daedalus. And I've been working hard, and I haven't quite got that yet. I spent. I told you last month, I spent hours trying to train. I. I said, hey, Kenobi, literally 500 times. I said it a hundred times next to the microphone, 100 times halfway away from the microphone, 100 times across the room from the microphone. And then I had to go downstairs and turn on the TV, and I had to do it 100 times with background noise going on. And then I had to do it in an empty room with no bat. Anyway, I did it 500 times and it still didn't learn. I was so annoyed. So I'm working on that one.
- [76:31]
B
There's this classic Onion.
- [76:34]
A
So I press the button. I press the button. That's how I get it.
- [76:37]
B
There's this classic Onion headline where it's Bill de Blasio to New York City. Hey, not so easy. Not. Not so easy to find a mayor that doesn't sell eggs, basically. And I bet that that is what Ciri feels like now, because everybody has been badmouthing Siri for years.
- [76:59]
A
New series actually. Great. Have you played?
- [77:01]
B
Deserves it. But I mean, I'm excited for the new series.
- [77:04]
A
Have you played with it yet? It's the public beta.
- [77:06]
B
Well, we'll get there, but.
- [77:09]
A
Oh, that's right.
- [77:10]
B
The one thing that. Well, no, no, the one thing that Ciri does have going for it is it's pretty good at recognizing. Hey, Siri. And at least it'. I'm very. I was just reading about it. I'm curious as to what your experience is. I used to do the public beta would have.
- [77:26]
D
Hello, Jeff Quicksilver here from Leo.
- [77:29]
A
Welcome to Intelligent Machines. Hope this show is cooking.
- [77:34]
B
I really dislike. I was gonna say that is. I was gonna say for people not watching. Leo was talking with his mic off.
- [77:42]
A
What feels like, oh, now it's still talking. It's talking to the sono. I. It can't.
- [77:48]
B
Oh, that's so funny.
- [77:49]
A
Yeah, I can't control it.
- [77:50]
B
It's so. I was probably. Had I not been forced to update my Mac this week to whatever the new Mac OS is.
- [77:59]
A
Tahoe.
- [78:00]
B
Tahoe. And it has ruined my life in multiple ways. I probably would have done the public beta. But I've been so burned by the experience of upgrading to Tahoe that I'm like, God, I can't deal with Apple on my phone. I need to have at least one. One Apple device that works. Currently, my Spotlight has been. I've been unable to search my computer for, like, a week. Spotlight keeps getting corrupted just because I updated my computer. It's ridiculous.
- [78:29]
A
That's kind of not right.
- [78:31]
B
And I'm just. I'm just like, how are you a company that has software and yet search isn't a functionality? What is this Gmail?
- [78:39]
A
I. I think that maybe. Maybe I'm just so used to bugs everywhere that I don't even notice because I am using the Apple public beta of iOS27 on Siri, on my watch, and on my iPhone, and I really like the new Siri. I think it's going to make AI more accessible to people.
- [78:57]
B
Tell me about what it's like because I've only. I kind of skimmed an article earlier today about it.
- [79:03]
A
Ask a question. What would you like me to ask it so I can just talk to it here on the phone is. What would you like to know? I would say.
- [79:09]
B
Well, I mean I'm just.
- [79:11]
A
When is the World cup finals? What time is it I here. Cuz I don't know. I can't make the.
- [79:16]
C
How do I watch?
- [79:19]
A
So it does a little lozenge up at the top. Now that's. That's different.
- [79:22]
B
Lozenge 2026 World Cup Final scheduled Sunday
- [79:27]
D
July 19th, 2026 kickoff at 12 time.
- [79:32]
C
Well, that's not a big deal. I can do the same thing with Google for the last year.
- [79:35]
B
Yeah, you could not do that on normal.
- [79:37]
A
I hope I didn't spoil this for you because it also showed who the teams were that were going to play. So if you didn't know, I apologize. Yeah, I mean so this is pretty primitive, but it can also, I can also say, hey, have I. Hey, have I gotten a text message from Henry in the last few days? I haven't checked my message. It can also. Did it hear that? It didn't. I'm out. Oh, it crashed. That's good.
- [80:13]
B
Hey, that's great. I mean I saw some description today of just people describing the. That it is integrated throughout apps.
- [80:23]
A
That's what I, that's what I was trying to demonstrate is that it, it can read my text messages, it can read my email and apps if they, they have to engineer it this way, but apps can also interact with it. So I could. If, let's say Monarch Money. We're just talking about our sponsor, Monarch Money. If Monarch Money builds in the capability of Siri to interact with it, I could use Siri to ask questions of Monarch Money, that kind of thing. So the Apple's hope is that developers of apps will turn this feature on and then that one. One Siri conversation could be about, you know, anything going on on my phone. And I think that that's potentially very cool. It's going to be accessible.
- [81:04]
B
I mean, I'm excited to see it, I'm excited to work it. I might think about doing the public beta once we figure out. Once I figure out whether Apple is able to correctly re index my entire hard drive and icloud.
- [81:19]
A
Yeah, I'm sorry, that's not good.
- [81:21]
B
You know.
- [81:21]
A
Yeah,
- [81:24]
B
and then, and then we'll get There right now I'm just trying to hold out on my couple year old iPhone until the new iPhones are released and I have the pleasure of paying a crazy amount of money to get a slightly better iPhone.
- [81:36]
A
I am currently of the opinion this is going to be the year nobody buys an iPhone because it's going to be so gosh darn expensive.
- [81:42]
B
I mean I think it's going to be like two grand jumping. It's going to be ridiculous. Maybe I won't even do that.
- [81:48]
A
I will show you what my latest AI project was. I thought it'd be kind of interesting to pit Daedalus, Quicksilver and Kenobi, each of which is currently using the top of the line models from OpenAI. That's Daedalus 5.6. Sol Kenobi is using Fable 5 and Daedalus is now using Grok 4.5, the latest. We'll talk about that a little bit. So I thought I'm going to give them a task overnight. I'm going to give them one simple prompt and I'm going to give them this task overnight and I'll wake up in the morning and see what they do with it. And I just want to do something kind of silly. Right. I have been working very hard, you know, rewriting the Twit ad sales system.
- [82:41]
C
I want to hear an update on that.
- [82:42]
A
That's been going really, really well. It's been really a lot of fun. In fact, Lisa is now recording videos of the old system saying, okay, this is the box I want. This is how I like it. But I don't want it to look like that because all the underlying functionality is done. And so now she's, she's kind of got. We're trying to get the UI right and did that in a week. It did it in quite a, quite a quick period of time.
- [83:05]
C
Did you, did you. Is. Is the extra time you're allowed a lot now allotted with Fable?
- [83:10]
A
Not yet.
- [83:11]
C
They extend so.
- [83:14]
B
So I'm still good Short stories becoming a chapter book with Fable.
- [83:19]
A
It's doing a great job but I designed it in such a way that if Fable went away or Fable got expensive that I wouldn't be spending a lot of money. So what it is is Fable does and actually by the way, I would recommend this to anybody. Fable does the design. I then have Saul chats GPT 5, 6 which is quite capable review the design. I've set up interagent email, I call it email where they. Because I was getting tired of pasting the response back and forth. So I said, look, just email it. So he's emailing the agents, emailing its thoughts. They go back and forth till they agree. Okay, this is the design. Then it hands it off to the less expensive Opus 4.8 to do the actual coding. And we're doing little chunks so it doesn't have to think for a long time or anything. It's just something it can easily do. And then it gets reviewed again, not just by Fable, the high priced model and 5.6 SOL, but also by Grok 4.5. So all three of them get to weigh in. And so that's been a good process. And the theory was, well, Fable, I'll only pay tokens just for the design stuff.
- [84:23]
C
So. So Nate B. Jones had a hilarious thing, little snippet on TikTok today that he knew that Fable had been extended because he saw people canceling their Tinder dates.
- [84:34]
A
He's joining us next week, by the way. I'm very excited. Nate B. Jones, who you introduced me to Jeff, and I watch him religiously now. I think he's one of the smartest YouTube commentators on AI. He really knows what he's talking about. He is gonna be on next week and we're gonna ask him about all of this stuff. So anyway, we're gonna take a break, but I'm just gonna tell you what I asked. This is. I don't believe in one shot prompts, as you could tell from what I just described this back and forth. Process, process. But it's always interesting to see what a one shot prompt can do. People do things like. And I'll show you, one of my picks of the week is a one shot Mario game that's called Super Dario. But I gave it a one shot. This is the prompt and it's kind of a weird one. Okay? So just prepare yourself. You ever heard of the I Ching? Yeah, you're a hippie.
- [85:22]
B
Gesundheit.
- [85:24]
A
This is back in the 60s, we were all into this. The I Ching is the.
- [85:29]
C
Well, speak for yourself, hippie.
- [85:30]
A
Ancient Chinese oracle where you toss coins. Or in my case, you have yarrow stalks.
- [85:40]
C
Oh, for God's sake. Oh, how California.
- [85:44]
B
I feel like I. I feel like I don't even understand half of the words that are being said.
- [85:48]
A
So what? You know that back in the olden
- [85:52]
C
times, he also went to Earhart seminar trainings.
- [85:56]
A
You know, back in the olden days, they would, you know, slaughter a cow and look at the entrails and say, well, you probably. You shouldn't.
- [86:03]
C
Inv.
- [86:04]
A
Made to gall because it's. The entrails say it's bad auspicious.
- [86:07]
C
Paris's parents did that with alligators. But keep.
- [86:09]
A
Those are. Yeah, those are. Those are oracles. Right. So this is an ancient Chinese oracle ways goes back thousands of years. And in the early days they would use these yarrow stocks. And it's a randomization process where you'd count and divide and count and divide. And then you would. As a result of these many operations, you'd come up with what they call a hexagram. Let me see if I can find a picture of a hexagram. Hexagram that would have then oracular power because you've put all of this energy into the counting of.
- [86:38]
C
This is not your best rabbit hole, Leo.
- [86:41]
A
I think it's my best.
- [86:42]
B
I love when a hexagram has a regular power.
- [86:46]
A
So. So this is. So. Okay, so I. The problem is it's a pain in the ass to do this. You know, you want the Oracle, you want it fast. You don't want to have to go through a lot in trouble. So here's the prompt I wrote. I've been thinking about some sort of digital way to use the Chinese I Ching Oracle. And I want you to. I gave the same exact prompt to all three of them. I want you first to investigate the I Ching. Find a book of interpretations, then take a look at the way the Oracle is cast using Yarrow sticks and coins. I've used the Yarrow stick method. I think the idea is to influence the random throws with one's intentions because you're supposed to. To form a question from the Oracle, then throw the sticks while concentrating on the question. I want to make a website to simulate the process, then offer an interpretation of the result. Build the site on my Cloudflare pages. Call it Q Ching for Quicksilver or D Ching for Daedalus. Or K Ching.
- [87:43]
C
Yeah, we got it. Yeah.
- [87:44]
A
Kenobi. I set them to work in the next morning and I will show you the result. But it was a way of saying. Saying I wonder what I'm gonna get.
- [87:54]
C
I don't think that's how Rafi tested. I just am just thinking.
- [88:01]
A
But we will have that result. I'll show you the three sites.
- [88:04]
C
Actually, I'm sure you will.
- [88:06]
A
If you don't want me to. I don't have.
- [88:08]
C
No, no, no, no, no. We're very interested.
- [88:10]
A
Okay.
- [88:10]
C
No, we couldn't be more.
- [88:11]
A
Okay. I'm sure this is how the President makes his decisions. I'll. I'll tell you what. What I you think of a question that you would like to ask for the Qing, for the Kuching? The question should be not what should I have for dinner tonight? It's not good at that.
- [88:28]
D
How.
- [88:29]
B
What are the vibes of the rest of this podcast gonna be?
- [88:33]
A
Make it something about your life. That it's, it's.
- [88:36]
B
That's about my life.
- [88:37]
A
Somewhat general.
- [88:38]
B
That's general. It could be good, it could be bad. I'm looking for good, bad, new.
- [88:42]
A
It doesn't do good or bad. It does things like the bridges long over which you will cry across and then you.
- [88:47]
B
I think that that could apply to this podcast.
- [88:51]
A
Well, I'm sorry I brought it up. We'll have more.
- [88:55]
C
There go the vibes right there.
- [89:00]
A
Prediction Our show today, brought to you by Expo. It's not Expo as you might not the Montreal Expos, but Xbow W. And you should know this name. This is the the premier agentic pen tester AI. We will stipulate this right has changed the pace of everything from how software develops to how it gets attacked, right? Engineering teams are moving faster than ever. They're creating more and more applications. The problem is security hasn't kept up. Pen testing is still one of the most trusted ways to understand real exploitable risk. But an AI in an AI driven world, pen testing can be the bottleneck. Pen testing, penetration testing simulates how attackers would attack a system, but it takes time. Security teams end up being forced to choose between slowing down development to stay secure, to wait for the pen tests, or moving fast and then accepting. Well, they're going to be gaps in coverage. We may be less secure, but Expo can eliminate that trade off. Xbow Expo is an autonomous anonymous offensive security platform that runs continuous AI driven pen testing, mirroring real world attacks. AI driven pen testing never tires, doesn't go to bed at night, doesn't stop for food or breaks. It pounds on your system. It finds the flaws. And Expo doesn't, you know, just scan for vulnerabilities? No, no. It. It discovers exploits and validates them so that you know you're only dealing with issues that actually matter. Exploits that actually work. And that means dramatically fewer false positives and a clear view into real attack paths. So your energy is not wasted chasing down leads that are meaningless. If. If Expo finds it, you got to fix it. With Expo, your tests run in hours, not weeks. You're going to get complete visibility into how an attacker would move through your system systems and the ability to uncover issues that traditional tools miss, including zero days and novel Attack paths. Expo's results speak for themselves. Ask the application security leader at Cesnam cz. He says, quote, even right now, after one year, I don't know any other company that's at least close to Expo. In terms of agentic pen testing. The result is predictable cost, consistent quality and stronger security without slowing down your engineers. Expensive helps security teams keep pace with innovation and cover more apps more often with the resources they already have. It's founded, I mean incredible lineage. Founded by the team that created Microsoft Copilot. Already trusted by companies ranging from fast growing startups to Fortune 500 enterprises. Xbow Expo is quickly becoming a mission critical layer in modern security stacks. Go to expo.com to start a pentech test today. Expo.com the leaders in agentic pen testing actually all three AI companies I think put out like super apps this week. Am I wrong? Chat GPT or OpenAI put out a chatgpt work. This is powered by SOL5 point but
- [92:21]
B
they also made a update to the chatgpt normal desktop that released really screwed over a bunch of normal consumers. My understanding is if you had Chat GPT just the normal desktop app on it, you much like with Claude, can normally toggle between chat and codecs, things like that. I believe, at least from what I've seen from every Chat GPT user on social media, freaking out is all of a sudden the app was changed to be the Chat GPT Codex or Chat GPT the work version and then you have to go and download a separate one that is I believe, Chat GPT classic.
- [93:01]
A
They took out the chat, they took
- [93:03]
B
out the chat Chat GPT suddenly has no more Chat GPT because they got
- [93:08]
C
rid of their browser and combined that in the app.
- [93:11]
B
I'm always trying to do the mom test. If you want to build a popular consumer product, you can't make deeply confusing changes like this that are going to baffle the average non technical consumer.
- [93:24]
A
Darren says they mixed Codex, which is the coding tool into Chat GPT and now it just looks like Codex. I think it's this is we've seen this coming which is that OpenAI sees the future not mom using chat, but the coders enterprise. That kind of.
- [93:43]
C
But I agree with Paris. I think, I think the real test of this is when it becomes retail.
- [93:48]
B
I mean in order for these companies to become profitable.
- [93:52]
C
Yeah.
- [93:53]
B
Or even break even given the amount of spending that has already occurred, they have to have extraordinarily large user paying user bases. And that extends beyond just coders. Coders are not going to fill up that need for revenue.
- [94:10]
A
They actually it's quite the opposite. Your mom is never going to give them the kind of money that they want and need.
- [94:15]
B
No better. My mom timed times a billion. A billion of my moms will, will start to fill out that whole. And a billion of my.
- [94:24]
A
Would your mom pay more than 20 bucks a month?
- [94:26]
B
No. But a million of my moms paying 20 bucks a month. Those people are not even using 1/100th of the amount of tokens as you. So it's, it's like the sort of customer that you want at a low cost gym. You want to get people, people paying your subscription fee and not using it that much.
- [94:46]
C
Like me at Silver Sneakers. Yes.
- [94:48]
B
You also have a fitness approach.
- [94:50]
C
We don't, but Line 116 says that OpenAI fell 90% short of their ad forecast. They also think they're going to be a media business with consumers and ads and if they do that then they've got to have a lot of moms.
- [95:05]
A
So I want to point out this is not OpenAI talking. This is some analyst list and all of the information we have about how much it costs and how much they're making or losing is. And people like that. There are people who are guessing or trying to estimate.
- [95:20]
B
I mean no, we don't had the multiple years. The company's full financials I believe was where.
- [95:27]
C
Yeah he got his data from.
- [95:28]
A
Well, we'll know when they go public. I'm sure we'll know better but for right now.
- [95:32]
C
But the point, no matter what the point is is that if they believe they're in an ad business then they need a scale of consumers. The way they get scale of consumers is by having Paris mom and people like that in.
- [95:43]
A
Yeah.
- [95:44]
C
So they've got to figure out a retail business there or less. Anthropic could say no. We're for coders. We're going to own that market. We're the best at it and they are. And so that's our business.
- [95:55]
A
It may be that OpenAI made a mistake. We don't really know what their internal models are.
- [96:01]
B
I believe OpenAI has said that they're going to be rolling out changes this week because of how confusing it is.
- [96:06]
A
Yeah, maybe.
- [96:06]
B
Maybe.
- [96:07]
A
Yeah. I've been seeing this. Remember, this is Sam Altman's. You know, we're going to focus which to me was. We see Anthropic making all this money on enterprise and, and we're missing the boat by having a billion users who don't give us any money. So we're we're going to focus more on what anthropic's focusing on that. That seems like this is more of a that and maybe it is a mistake, but I don't think we have a way of judging that. I think that and who knows how poorly or well run OpenAI is.
- [96:40]
C
We just don't know.
- [96:42]
A
We just don't know. So, you know, users may be upset. They were also upset at 4o going away, but I don't know 4o going away was a mistake on the part of OpenAI.
- [96:53]
B
It's like when when Zuckerberg from Znet yesterday. I love Chat GP Chat GPT Desktop until OpenAI gutted it to make room for codex and work. OpenAI just merged the Chat GPT Desktop app with Codex and removed all of my favorite productivity features. What are they thinking?
- [97:13]
A
Probably the same guy who six months ago says, you took my girlfriend away.
- [97:17]
B
I mean, I'm not sure that a staff writer, I'm not sure that a senior Contributing Editor at Znet ZDNet is an AI.
- [97:26]
A
Do you know these people? ZDNet has been gutted. They are now run by private equity and I'm not sure I would trust anything that they say about.
- [97:37]
B
I mean a human person is writing this, not a private equity company. That's just the people who pay them.
- [97:42]
A
Yeah, but not much. Just take a look at the front page of ZDNet.
- [97:46]
B
I mean, I'm just saying I have anecdotally seen 20 to 50 social media posts with hundreds of comments on it in the last last three days, three to five days.
- [97:59]
A
If Open AI changes it does change it back then that you'll. It'll confirm it that they made a mistake, which they could easily have done. I mean, they may have overestimated the interest in a coding tool. I don't use any of their chat. I don't use any chatbots ever. Any of them. So I don't. I'm the wrong person to ask. OpenAI may have made a big mistake. Mistake, says Ars Technica. In. In the copyright fight with news organizations. They deleted the chat GPT logs that the New York Times was hoping to get from discovery. They're facing calls for sanctions after fighting to keep news organizations from snooping through millions of logs. Now I think they could reasonably say we're just trying to protect our users privacy.
- [98:51]
C
Were they under court order? Were they under.
- [98:53]
A
They were. And so that's an issue. New York Times In a sanction motion on Thursday, the New York Times and the other news organizations accused OpenAI of repeatedly lying for years to conceal evidence of infringement that could hobble OpenAI's defense. The alleged lies were exposed. This is again from Ars Technica. When the court compelled an ill prepared witness, OpenAI privacy engineering engineer Vincent Monaco, to be redeposed. During the subsequent April deposition, he inadvertently revealed whoops. That OpenAI misled the court for two years about the costs and burdens of searching chat GPD logs. This is again according to the plaintiff, the New York Times. So they want sanctions against OpenAI. They allegedly hid an 80 million log sample, two large samples, 10 million and 78 million logs. The reason the Times wants that them is they hope that New York Times content will surface in those logs, that pieces of articles will, will show up. They, they also assert that OpenAI had searched those samples for content as part of its research into quote, creating a filter that could be used to block the regurgitation of copyrighted content. So they said Open AI was willing
- [100:09]
B
to search what discovery is all about.
- [100:11]
A
Right.
- [100:11]
B
This is the information you get as part of discussion.
- [100:13]
A
But those logs are my chats with OpenAI.
- [100:19]
B
They are company data. I mean that's what, that's what happens when you, you interface with a private company. That could emerge in, I mean, the Steve Jobs email to other people was something that I just put in the chat earlier when we were talking about his policies around recruitment and NDAs in the early 2000s. And we now have copies of all of those because they emerged in discovery and you didn't just get to say, sorry, we can't hand them over. I emailed someone else who's not part of this lawsuit.
- [100:58]
A
Never put it in writing. Right.
- [100:59]
B
Yeah.
- [101:02]
A
Well, let's talk about the privacy issues that are raised. This is a tweet from a green being on X. Okay. Brock just uploaded my entire user directory to xai's servers, including my SSH keys, my password manager database, my documents, photos, videos, everything. And he's got the receipts here.
- [101:25]
C
How did he allow it access to all that stuff in the first place?
- [101:29]
A
Well, so this is something I've had my eyes opened too. When you use, let's say I say to Anthropic, as you just did, or you said it to Google, here's all my books. Read these and build a nice little model for me with NotebookLM. Of course, all of those things are uploaded to Google.
- [101:52]
D
You know why?
- [101:56]
C
Generally AI, but it's also, it's grok.
- [101:58]
D
What are you thinking?
- [101:59]
A
Well, I'm using GROK too frequently. Ultimately, when you're using these models, they will read your files, they will read documents. This is part of, you know, what they're doing. So here's from Sarah Blab. This is a gist on GitHub what X's Xai's Grok build CLI and this is their command, this is their relatively new command line interface, their version of codecs and cloud code actually sends to xai. And this is a wire level analysis. So they actually looked at what was being sent. So for instance, it transmits the contents of every file it reads, including, and this is scary, a.env secrets file. So for instance, all of my passwords, I don't give my passwords to the AI, I put them in an environment variable. Right, which is a. It's a temporary, it's a. Not on the hard drive, it's in. It's in RAM on only you presume that it can read that, but it doesn't send it back to the home office. But wait a minute, maybe it does. Verbatim and unredacted. In fact, if you think about it, it has to, because it then has to use those keys to unlock stuff. It uploads entire repositories, every tracked file's content plus git history independent of what the agent reads. So GROK packages the workspace in your GitHub Hub repository and uploads it. The destination though, is not on XAI servers. It's a Google cloud storage bucket. Wow. Anyway, I can go on and on. I think the eye opener is. In hindsight, I should have really realized this. When you're using cloud AI, you're sending everything up to its server numbers and who knows what they're doing with it, right?
- [103:51]
B
Especially if it is grok.
- [103:54]
A
Well, yeah, yeah. By the way, Elon's response, we're gonna throw all that stuff away. The researcher who exposed Grok build uploading users entire repositories say the transfers have stopped. They did. It might have been a bug after a server side change change. And according to the register, Elon has separately promised that all previously uploaded user data will be deleted.
- [104:20]
C
I. I'm really interested in why you chose to use GROK at all. Seriously. As opposed to.
- [104:26]
A
It's a very good. Well, so part. You know, one of the reasons I use all these different models, I don't need to use.
- [104:30]
C
I know you're different models.
- [104:32]
A
I'm testing them all. I'm looking at them all, comparing them all. So I don't want to be too prejudiced against Grok. And in fact, GROK is a very model. Well, also I get it for free because I am an involuntary blue check. I have a Twitter plus account I don't pay for. So, you know, I mean there's no reason, Marie not to use it. I don't. Look.
- [104:54]
C
Did you think of Gemini? Do you test a Gemini?
- [104:57]
A
I pay for Gemini. I have an Omni subscription. But actually Google is very cheap. For instance, they recently I thought this was really cool. Cool. Put their Skitch models up in a GitHub that I could then ingest with my AI and use Google Skitch Stitch. Did I say Skitch?
- [105:18]
C
I said Skitch Henderson, he was a famous guy.
- [105:21]
A
Wonderful. Follow the bouncing ball Stitch which is their. Was what we were going to use Paris to design secretly British. It's their very nice design tool. So I was able to ingest it into my Hermes. But then it wanted money.
- [105:38]
B
How dare they.
- [105:39]
A
It wanted tokens. So even though I pay quite a bit for Google models, they don't give you a lot for free, much like Anthropic. You have to use it within the Google tool and all of that. So I am a fan of open models.
- [105:54]
C
You couldn't look at it, but Paris told us right before the show that Mir Marathi's model is up.
- [106:00]
A
Yeah, I haven't played with it, but
- [106:02]
B
yeah, must be quite good with design.
- [106:04]
A
Interesting.
- [106:06]
C
It's called inkling.
- [106:07]
A
Increasingly, I think the attitude we're having is that maybe the solution instead of having a 10 trillion parameter model, that's what Nate B. Jones says Fable is you have smaller, you know, several billion parameter models that just do one thing well. Steve Gibson says you're going to have small local models that are really as good as coding as Fable because it won't have all that other crap.
- [106:32]
C
That's the. On the code argument as well.
- [106:34]
A
Yeah.
- [106:35]
C
And then also you give it a task, it does the task, it stops. It's not trying to be to make paperclips till the end of time.
- [106:41]
A
Yeah, it's.
- [106:42]
C
It's.
- [106:42]
B
Would you like ME to do that task again but with two extra things on it
- [106:48]
A
Actually Darren says he pays for Gemini but doesn't use it because every time it does it causes more damage than it fixes. That's one of the reasons I try all these models is to see how much damage they can do. So I can say don't. Whatever you do, don't use this. I have to admit, Grok 4. 5 is very good. It's very. It's fast.
- [107:06]
C
So Inkling is a mixture of experts. Transformer with 975 billion total parameters, 41 billion active. It supports context window of up to 1 million tokens.
- [107:16]
A
So you could probably run that locally.
- [107:18]
C
It was Pre trained on 45 trillion tokens of text images on audio. Video.
- [107:22]
A
Yeah. So they're doing. I don't know why they're valued as highly as they are mainly just because of the name Miramarati.
- [107:28]
C
But they're doing alongside it we're sharing a preview of inkling.
- [107:31]
B
I mean this is their first iteration of anything.
- [107:34]
C
Yeah, it's the lighter weight model has 12 billion active parameters trained with a single similar recipe that achieves strong performance and even lower cost and latency.
- [107:43]
A
Well, Apple is looking at this model from Prism ML. In fact Apple's looking at the company company called Banzai. Very similar. The Idea is a 27 billion parameter model but because it is, it's based on Quin 3627B which is a very very good multimodal model. But I'm pretty sure it's also a mixture of experts which means it only loads in a little bit at a time. So it can run on a phone. It can run in a 18 gigabyte model. That's probably too big for a phone, but they even have smaller versions. There's a 3.9 gigabyte 1 bit quantization version of it which probably isn't very bright. When you quantize that heavily you get pretty dumb. But it fits in 3.9 gigabytes that you could run on an iPhone. So that's what every a lot of people are working on. I'm not surprised Thinking Machines is working on that as well. Is the idea of how can we get a really smart model into a small space.
- [108:43]
C
Yeah, because RAM the mom's gonna use it.
- [108:45]
A
It's just the RAM is so expensive it doesn't even have to be mom. It's that same conversation we had with Rafi earlier. Enterprises hate the idea of their proprietary stuff being sent to the cloud. They wanna run it locally but they can't get, you know, terabyte RAM computers except at a huge cost. So if you can get it smaller, something they can run locally that's effective. Especially if it's a dedicated model to assert like to your business rules then that that makes sense. I understand why they would want to do that. Anyway, I will say talks with Prism AML about this model because they'd love to put this on their phone.
- [109:26]
B
I will say though inkling fine tuned on Tinker produced by thinking machines is a horrifying combination of words. It's just absolutely, it is this sort of sentence that is technically made up of words, but as it leaves my mouth it is if it never existed.
- [109:48]
A
Cling tinker session. Yeah.
- [109:52]
B
No, not what we want.
- [109:53]
A
Fiji. Simo has now stepped down from Open AI she took a leave of absence for medical reasons. She now says her medical issues are such that she's going to only be a part time advisor. She was in charge of AGI at OpenAI.
- [110:10]
C
She was also in charge of product.
- [110:11]
D
Right.
- [110:12]
C
And I, I, I admire Fiji. I, I knew her at, at Facebook, her blog. Charge of video. She was in charge of the, the, the, the stream. She's a really amazing executive and, and I think that we'll see her soon. She just had to take care of her health.
- [110:30]
A
Yeah. I mean, three months ago I had
- [110:32]
B
to go some very serious health issues and wish for all the best.
- [110:36]
C
Yep, she's brilliant.
- [110:39]
A
They also lost their AI safety guy. Okay. The head of safety at OpenAI is gone, but they're folding the safety into research again. Johannes H. Two years as head of safety systems at OpenAI. And so OpenAI is going to reorg. Who needs safety after all?
- [111:04]
C
Can we play the anthropic commercial?
- [111:06]
A
I know what you want. You want the. Can we play it Is an interesting.
- [111:10]
B
Can we get another commercial on the show?
- [111:17]
A
Yeah, I'm gonna say we can play it. What do you think? Do you want to play with sound trouble?
- [111:23]
C
Sound off and captions on. Like this is the kind of stuff that they should.
- [111:27]
A
Okay. That's less likely to cause a problem. Yeah. Let me turn off the sound and turn on the video and. Okay, so we see a burning building.
- [111:38]
C
You want to turn on the captions because there, there are. Okay.
- [111:42]
A
Oh, I just turned them off again. There we go. Can AI be trusted? It's showing a lot of people's faces. Who's going to hit the stop button if we need to. How do we really. There's a bunch of aiming, which it's going so fast.
- [111:54]
C
This is, it's showing a house on fire. It's showing really dystopian scenes. It's showing a cemetery with a bunch of.
- [112:00]
A
If it ends up taking all the shows, I mean, to work, I'm also worried. But wait a minute. Why do we have to have this stuff showing a data center showing a car being built? If a machine can pretend to care better than I can actually care, how do we draw the line?
- [112:15]
C
Now the music goes from minor key to major key.
- [112:17]
A
If we all had a voice in it, then I feel like like it would be better? Could AI help people stop. What is the point of this, Jeff?
- [112:25]
C
What?
- [112:25]
B
Keep going.
- [112:25]
C
Just keep going. Keep going.
- [112:26]
A
Could AI help me build?
- [112:27]
C
So now it's in the positive. Could help build more community.
- [112:31]
A
Look, it can open a fire hydrant and the kids can play teacher.
- [112:34]
C
Maybe a better teacher, better mom.
- [112:36]
A
Maybe it'll cure some.
- [112:37]
C
Some great things. You actually want to cure some bad things?
- [112:40]
A
Yeah. There's a nurse with an a open anthropic sticker on her laptop.
- [112:45]
C
We'll create a group of people, people that ask more questions.
- [112:48]
A
Will it make whales jump in the air?
- [112:49]
C
Will it be starting to be more human again?
- [112:52]
A
Yes. Beautiful.
- [112:53]
C
We don't want to learn the most beautiful parts of life.
- [112:55]
A
There's hope. It says in hard questions, we don't have any answers.
- [113:00]
B
What is the point of this ad?
- [113:01]
A
I don't get it. Exactly.
- [113:03]
B
It's like, remember all the things you hate about AI? What if they actually weren't that bad? Or if they are that bad, what if we asked questions and we've been
- [113:13]
C
telling you it's terrible, but in our hands. Hands. We're going to ask good questions.
- [113:16]
B
I think I really enjoyed when they just showed a photo of a whale jumping out of the water.
- [113:21]
A
This is the duality of OpenAI, isn't it? This is what they did with Mythos. This is dangerous.
- [113:27]
B
No, this is. This is anthropic, not open AI.
- [113:30]
A
I'm sorry.
- [113:31]
C
Emails with Mythos. Yes. So Sam Altman responded in a tweet. I thought this was satire. Kept looking for the handle to be spelled C1 1. Oddly I or something. Then Sam came back and said, hold on.
- [113:48]
B
That's actually very funny.
- [113:49]
C
And it is very funny that.
- [113:50]
B
That Sam Altman was like, no one will be dumb enough to point out all the stuff that people hate about our companies.
- [113:57]
C
So his next tweet is hard questions are great, but only if we deem you worthy enough to not silently downgrade you or even get access at all. Beth. Jesus says. Jesus or Jesus? How do you. How does one pronounce that?
- [114:12]
D
I don't.
- [114:12]
A
I don't even know.
- [114:15]
C
Said. Here it is. Anthropic is strategically trying to burn the AI vibes to the ground so people over regulate and the game gets frozen while they're in the lead. It's. It's ridiculous why they did this. If you go to tech meme, it shows, you know, 100 tweets about it. People are scratching their heads.
- [114:36]
A
Schizophrenic about AI they are. We hate it. We love It. We hate it. We love it. It's terrifying. It's going to be the best thing ever. So this ad really completely reflects.
- [114:46]
C
Yeah. We hate ourselves. We love ourselves. We hate our product. We love our product. Yeah.
- [114:52]
A
Here's, here's a vulnerability vending machine. This is, this is not my, my pick. We put in tokens and vulnerabilities come out. That's an interesting idea. What else? Australia is demanding AI companies must produce more energy than they consume and stop stealing content. I feel like governmental regulation is going to be a really good, really big issue in the coming years of. With these immediately, I think, I think Dario has to stop putting out negative stuff about AI because the job at this point is to convince government it isn't as threatening as you think. In fact, the White House is speaking to what Rafi was talking about earlier, has not ruled out action on open source AI models as well.
- [115:55]
C
That's what I'm scared of. Exactly.
- [115:58]
A
So it's not just Anthropic and Methos. They're also worried about open weight models.
- [116:04]
B
I also think, though, that this is the sort of administration that even if they had made a statement today, being like, we've ruled out any action on open source models that could change 17 times in the next two and a half years, much less the next two years.
- [116:21]
A
So, yeah, it's no, there's no point.
- [116:23]
C
Even so, Eric Schmidt wrote. There were two interesting op ed Eric Schmidt wrote on the New York Times. We must address the growing rage against the AI machine, which is what's happening right now. That's why he wants you to address it, because otherwise they're going to get regulated to hell. The other interesting one.
- [116:37]
A
Well, or you're going to get firebombed. I mean, there's a. This is the Wall Street Journal article. The hard line activists ramping up for the war with AI. The resistance to artificial intelligence is growing over fears about human extinction. But then there's these activists who are, you know, know.
- [116:56]
C
Well, they're being fed by the companies themselves.
- [116:58]
A
Yeah, we're going to see an. I mean, I've been saying this for a while. There's going to be a schism between people who want AI and people who want to stop it at any. With. For any means, by any means necessary.
- [117:12]
C
The history of the Internet didn't help.
- [117:15]
A
Yeah.
- [117:15]
C
Meanwhile, Paul Ford wrote an op ed in the New York Times which I think you're going to like a lot if you didn't read it.
- [117:20]
A
I wrote, Reddit code is free speech.
- [117:23]
C
What he's arguing in terms of the open source and regulation is code is speech and it needs protection. Do you disagree with that?
- [117:32]
A
It's not. No, I don't disagree with it. I don't think he made a very persuasive argument. If it didn't. It wasn't very. I wasn't persuasive. In my opinion. It was. It was an opinion. Yes, he has an opinion opinion. There's no question about it. That's all I have to say about it. Just. It didn't. It didn't wow me. All right, let's take one last break. Picks of the week coming up in just a moment. You're watching Intelligent Machines, Paris Martino, Jeff Jarvis, and you dear friends. And a special thank you to all of our Club Twit members who make this show possible. Possible. Tomorrow morning is knocking.
- [118:17]
B
Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink
- [118:20]
A
Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe?
- [118:23]
B
Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.
- [118:31]
A
A burst pipe, a dead water heater. The AC calling it quits. Who do you call? Home serve is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs with plans covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't. Instead of scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe right now. Go to HomeServe.com podcast for 50% less your first year. That's HomeServe.com podcast savings compared to renewal price void in Florida. About 30% of our operating costs now are paid by the club members. Thank goodness we have the club. We started it in during COVID because Lisa wisely realized this is probably going to be important. We I always like the idea that the the people who get value out of our content should participate. Should pay. That's such an ugly word. But that's what we're asking you to do.
- [119:24]
C
Help.
- [119:24]
A
Thank you.
- [119:25]
C
Help.
- [119:26]
A
$10 a month. Support the show. Go to Twitter TV Club Twit. We try to give you value for money. You get ad free versions of all the shows. You wouldn't even hear this plug you get by the way in these ad free versions. You also get chapter markers so you can jump around and skip the parts you don't want to hear or go to the part you do want to hear. You also get access to the Club Twit Discord. Turns out a social network where people pay to be is actually great. The content, the conversations are fantastic in there. You also get all the special programming we put in there. We're going to be very busy this rest of this week. We've got. We had a great AI user group, by the way, last Friday, which I would highly recommend to club members. I think, you know, the AI user group, they said, why don't we do this more often? This is. This is fun. So we're thinking about going to. Twice a month. Let us know. But Micah's crafting corn is coming up today. This evening, 6:00pm Pacific. Then on Friday, photo time with Chris Marquardt. Our assignment is Coastal, the media club. You know, we've been doing Stacy's book club for a while, and Micah said, why don't we do media too? So we're going to be talking about the Matrix. That should be.
- [120:39]
B
Wait, can I come?
- [120:41]
A
Everybody's invited. Even you, Paris. You know, I bought the steel box of the Matrix. All the Matrix.
- [120:48]
B
Wait, can we do a special episode where we all watch the Matrix on physical media and then talk about it? Specifically? Specifically, I want to do Matrix 2 in conversation with AI.
- [121:01]
A
Okay. Because I. I'll be honest. I watched Matrix 1 on that nice collector's box that I bought on your recommendation. It looked beautiful, by the way, on my beautiful HD screen. And I could not bring myself to watch 2, 3, or 4.
- [121:17]
B
It's really. They're really interesting nowadays.
- [121:21]
A
I want to hear your take.
- [121:22]
B
Maybe Matrix two. Very interesting. In the age of AI. Matrix three, you can kind of take it or leave it. Matrix 4. Awesome.
- [121:32]
A
Okay. These are, in my opinion, a controversial point of view, but that's what the club is for. So I'll tell you what. The discussion on Friday, 2pm Pacific, 5pm Eastern, for people who've watched the Matrix. If you want to do a watch party after that, be my guest. I think that'd be a lot of fun.
- [121:49]
B
Fun.
- [121:50]
A
That's. See, this is what the club is all about. Home theater geeks. Jeff Atwood's back on the 31st. He was in Berlin for the developers conference. We'll talk about that. His show has a geeky name, a developer joke. Off by one with Jeff Atwood. Hands on tech. The AI User group is coming up again the first Friday of every month. So that'll be August 7th. Stacy's Book Club. We've got the book Slow Gods by Claire North. Start reading it now. In one month, we will have the book club. These are all things we do in the club. So join it. We'd love to have you. It's so much fun. And it helps us continue to do independent programming. And I think if we learn one thing in this era of AI and the Internet and everything else going on, it's that independent media is a rare and valuable commodity, but it takes your support to keep doing it. Twit Ticket TV Club Twit. It's a value add. Thank you, Mandar. I do have to warn you, a lot of animated gifs in the club Twit Discord, but also a lot of Paris Martineau. So there's that. It makes up for the animated GIFs.
- [123:02]
B
I'm always at work with animated GIFs. That's what people always say about me.
- [123:07]
A
So let me show you. I mentioned Super Dario. It's pretty much, I would say, a one shot joke. Probably a one shot AI. You will like it because if you've ever played Super Mario, you will recognize it. It says Fable 5. Trust us. This is the good one. There's. There's Dario jumping around. Still the most powerful model this week. Watch out for that.
- [123:31]
B
Oh, don't get hit by little Claude Flowers.
- [123:33]
A
Here's the good news. You can't really die on this because there's Sam Altman. Watch out for him. He's sleeping. Slippery. Fable five extended by popular demand. Look at that. Through July 12th. Good news. I was able to extend it. Let's extend it some more. What do you say? Jump over. Oh, back in the hole. Jump over. Some. Sam Altman's wiped out again.
- [123:58]
C
But.
- [123:58]
A
But wait.
- [123:59]
B
Fable five valuations going now.
- [124:01]
A
Now with 3% more reasoning. Extended through July 9th, 19th. If you keep playing, you keep extending it. And that's the beauty of this silly little game.
- [124:12]
C
Who got to show it.
- [124:15]
A
Super Dario, My pick of the week. I have others, actually, but I think that's. That's the best one. There is a guy who's put up a post on how to get Claude to stop using the words load bearing. There are certain. I don't know if you've noticed this, but there are certain tropes that keep coming. Coming up. The AIs can't stop doing it. Load bearing is one of the most annoying. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader, but there is a whole article on the Atlantic about. It's not X, it's Y. The most famous AI writing tick. And they all do it. The funny thing is, Willow Ramos, they all do it. It's not just one model. Everybody does load bearing. Everybody does. It's not X, it's Y. Oh, one more thing.
- [125:00]
C
Thing.
- [125:01]
A
Because you. Because this is important, the history of LLMs. Actually, somebody in the club sent me this. The timeline and evolution of large language models going back as far as 1950. So this is really interesting because it talks about Transformers, how they came about with the history of LLMs from Eliza to GPT. The rise of modern LLMs starting in 2018, the Reasoning Revolution starting in 2024. Or if you're interested in just it's not very long in a few pages you can really get how we got here from there. I think it's a really well done page and I should give you the address, shouldn't I? T O L O K A I Toloka. And it's in Toloka's blog. Toloka, I guess is a company that does AI training.
- [125:54]
C
Training.
- [125:55]
A
And now Paris Martin. Oh, your pick of the week.
- [125:59]
B
My pick of the week is an article I published today. Just a quick thing about.
- [126:04]
A
I wanted to ask you.
- [126:05]
C
Yeah.
- [126:05]
B
This is outbreak, which you've probably heard, you've probably seen all the headlines about explosive diarrhea is sweeping the nation. I dug into.
- [126:14]
A
Is that the actual headline exposure? I mean, diarrhea is sweeping the nation.
- [126:18]
B
Basically they're all about how.
- [126:20]
C
That's the tweet now.
- [126:21]
B
That's the tweet is. I dug into the data and it's a bit more complicated than that. My. The headline of it is no, you shouldn't avoid fruits and vegetables due to cyclospora just because I feel like there has been a bit of a misnomer, misconception perpetuated lately.
- [126:40]
A
If I cook it, is it going to be safe?
- [126:42]
B
Yes, but it.
- [126:43]
C
So your salad, do you want your salad cooked?
- [126:46]
A
No, but maybe I won't even sell it.
- [126:48]
B
Here, let me give you, I guess some general background. We have an outbreak going on of cyclospora. It's a parasite that can cause extreme diarrhea. The context though is every summer in the US cyclospora cases surge just because that's kind of how it works. It transmission only really happens in the summer. The U.S. has seen, you know, around 500 to like 4,700 cases of this a year. It happens in a bunch of different states. Technically, right now the amount of states that are reporting infections is lower than it was at this point last year. However, the number of total infections is significantly higher. I was asking myself what's going on here, really? It seems like what's going on is you've got your normal spread of like a little bit of an up to tick all over the US Plus a huge surge that's going on in Michigan and three other kind of surrounding states that seems to be related based on some genetic testing the CDC has done. But they haven't figured out, you know, what the exact source is and what the food is. So if you're in those areas, in Michigan in particular, people recommend that, you know, you don't buy bagged lettuce, which could possibly be a source of the
- [128:09]
C
outbreak, but because you want to have yourself. Is that the idea?
- [128:12]
B
Yeah. If you want to have salad and you're in those areas, you should get ahead of. You could get ahead of lettuce, remove the first couple of leaves on it, maybe wash the outside, chop it yourself. Generally, people recommend, you know, avoid pre chopped, you know, vegetables or fruits. Chop it, wash it yourself, have. However, if you are in Michigan and the three other states around there that have been identified as kind of a cluster, Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia and Kentucky, what our food safety experts recommend is like maybe for the next week or two, avoid lettuce generally, if that's possible for you. I think that that's a fairly targeted recommendation. It's only because there's some preliminary data from Michigan, the state that is responsible for the majority of the cases so far has kind of picked up some signals that it could be lettuce related. But this really means for everybody outside of that cluster, you don't need to be totally panicking and avoiding eating all fruits and vegetables. There's a couple of other states that are seeing like a slight uptick in cases, like higher than average number of cases for this time of year. Like New York state has 500 cases and in a normal season, season of summer, they get like 5 to 700. It's not out of normal, but it's a little higher. If you're in one of those states like New York or Illinois, wash your food whenever you're cooking it, make sure you wash your hands, stuff like that.
- [129:44]
C
So Taco Bell seemed to preemptively made an announcement that it would stop selling things with lettuce and cilantro and some other things which struck me as preemptive, like we're going to be selling safe. But then the stories are kind of, while they're investigating Taco Bell. Did you come across anything about it?
- [130:01]
B
Well, I did. This is something I've been like. My understanding of the timeline is what happened is Michigan has. So the way the food borne illness surveillance system in the US Works, it's basically kind of state by state basis. They don't get that much money from, from the federal government, but they're trying their best. Michigan's actually been really trying hard on this. They've been. And publishing case totals every single day, trying to give advice. Early on, like in the last week or two, they were like, hey, you know, we're starting to see some of these signals around lettuce. This is something that's historically been connected here. Everybody watch out. And around this time, Taco Bell pulls lettuce off its products. They say this is just preemptive because lettuce, and specifically bagged and pre chopped lettuce, like the sort a fast food restaurant would use, is often implicated when these sort of outbreaks happen. The same thing happened with McDonald's like eight years ago. And I kind of believe them on that. I mean, yeah, the thing is, I obviously don't know what Taco Bell does and doesn't know. And none of the investigators have said it absolutely is or absolutely isn't Taco Bell. But the sort of thing is like when, when health investigators are looking into this, they are looking into what restaurants, what fast food chains, what grocery stores you shopped at, what you bought. And if it was something as simple as the lettuce and the Taco Bell has this parasite, I think that would provide like a very strong and identifiable signal that would be more easy to identify and perhaps would have a larger national spread than this strange cluster of cases in just like one region that we're seeing that seems to be hitting a more fire than the demographics of the people who are getting sick. Like, the average age is 44 and it's more, it's like 60% women. Like, it doesn't scream Taco Bell. To me. That screams bagged salad or like herbs, which are common things. Obviously that's just speculation, but the Washington Post article about Taco Bell you're talking about, about. I've read and I mean, I never, I don't know what other journalists do and don't know, but it wasn't written to me. It was based on an honest sourcing, which could be totally legitimate, but it wasn't written to me in a sense that felt like super strong. Like, my hypothesis is that maybe like Taco Bell recall. They're not recall. Yeah, responsibly. They pulled this because they're like, listen, we don't want to be involved in this. And then some investigators were like, like, huh, Taco Bell headlines has pulled. We should look into it. And that seems to be the extent of what's happened.
- [132:43]
C
Isn't the gestation period for it also longer? That makes it harder to.
- [132:47]
B
Yeah, it's kind of complicated. Whenever you eat something, it could be like, two weeks later that you get sick, and then you're sick for quite some time. It's also way more complicated to track. Like, if you're looking for something like Salmonella, like, it's pretty easy and fast. Fast for health officials and investigators to, like, both determine that salmonella is on the thing or find it in your sample and then kind of genetically test it. Everything about that process for cyclospora is way harder. Plus the fact that, you know, it's a somewhat rarish parasite comparatively. So the average doctor, before this outbreak became national news, probably didn't have that top of mind if a patient came in with diarrhea. So.
- [133:33]
A
So if I wash my. You do talk about this in your article. You can wash it off, right?
- [133:40]
B
I mean, yes. And it's important. Everybody should be washing their produce anyway just because that's an important, helpful step to do.
- [133:47]
A
I put baking soda on it when I wash it.
- [133:50]
B
I'm not certain as to the efficacy of baking soda. I mean, I looked into some of the, like, medical and scientific research on this, and it seems to indicate that cyclospora is more difficult to remove from foods than other parasites. There was some scientists that did a study of, like, berries, which is something that often.
- [134:08]
A
But less cyclospora is better.
- [134:09]
B
Yeah, less cyclospore is better.
- [134:11]
A
They were, like, you know, related to the quantity.
- [134:13]
B
They're like having your berries in a strainer under cold water for a minute, rinse them. That got rid of a sizable chunk. You know, I think it got rid of, let's see, 11 to 69% of the cyclospora in raspberries are harder because
- [134:33]
C
there's all these little hiding spots.
- [134:34]
B
I say raspberries are harder than blueberries, but. So water was like 11 to 69% water with, like, a vinegar solution. It was like one part vinegar, three parts water. I've got a link to. To the part and the thing that says it was slightly more effective, but still not crazy. The most effective was like, rinsing it with water and then putting it in a salad strainer and spinning it around and then rinsing it again, basically. But that still left some on it generally. I mean, though, removing cyclospora from a contaminated item could be beneficial because it means there's less parasite your body has to fight off. But, I mean, there's no indication that this is coming from. From berries so far. And some of the researchers I spoke to said, actually the demographic data we're starting to see, we've seen so far indicates it might not be the case. Because, I mean, I don't know if you guys know anything about children, but children love to consume berries by, like, the pound full, it seems, and we're not seeing a really high rate of infection in children. Again, it seems to be.
- [135:35]
C
I have my raspberries every morning. That's good to know.
- [135:38]
B
I mean, my general take on this is. I know it's really easy to get freaked out about stuff. Obviously, nobody wants to get explosive diarrhea. But when you're. If you're outside of these effective areas and if you're in a state that isn't seeing an unusually high number of cases, you know, you can just take basic food safety precautions.
- [135:57]
C
So today I went to Popeyes because I had a. I had a hankering for the Popeyes fried chicken sandwich, but I really like the new Popeyes wrap. It has some lettuce and some cheese in it and it's really good.
- [136:07]
B
Good.
- [136:07]
C
But I decided not the time to have the wrap today because of the lettuce, so instead I had the sandwich. That was my safety tip.
- [136:14]
B
I mean, yeah, I think especially for people, if anyone is, like, immunocompromised or has risk factors, people particularly young, particularly old someone, if there's something about your situation that might cause you pause it. Where getting a fairly severe, intense bout of diarrhea could be catastrophic for you, take every precaution you want. If it's just something to make you feel better, take every precaution you want. If you do just want to act on the data that we do and don't have. For a lot of people, just, you know, washing your fruits and veggies and washing your hands is probably a good baseline to be at right now.
- [136:58]
C
See, folks, how handy it is to have a food detective right here.
- [137:00]
A
Paris article, like all our articles free@consumer reports.org no, you shouldn't avoid fruits and vegetables.
- [137:08]
B
And people are so mad at me about this online. They keep being like, did the virus write this?
- [137:13]
A
Do you not know?
- [137:15]
B
And I'm like, it's a parasite.
- [137:18]
A
And no, I'm just, like, saying that,
- [137:21]
B
yes, you should be allowed to eat fruits and vegetables. Things you need to have a balanced diet does not mean. I'm saying you can't take whatever precautions you want.
- [137:32]
A
I eat Wyman's fruit frozen wild blueberries all the time and I'm gonna presume that. Psycho.
- [137:38]
B
I was gonna say frozen.
- [137:39]
C
Why frozen? Why do you. Why not fresh?
- [137:43]
A
Cause blueberries last fresh about three seconds.
- [137:46]
B
That is true.
- [137:47]
C
Raspberries are faster.
- [137:49]
A
I just, I mean, they're the wild blueberries, which a. I don't have access to keep perfectly well frozen. And they thaw out nicely and I like them.
- [137:58]
B
Wow. I never thought about the fact that you could have thaw them out.
- [138:02]
A
Amazing.
- [138:03]
B
I've always just thawed of frozen blueberries. They're actually good frozen smoothie.
- [138:07]
A
Yeah, they're good frozen. As a matter of fact. Yes. Again, consumerreports.org, jeff Jarvis, pick of the week.
- [138:15]
C
Okay, a couple quick things. One is that Google has started a new profiles thing for creators. So I went and did it.
- [138:24]
A
Oh.
- [138:25]
C
So if you go to profile.google.com Jeff Jarvis, you'll see this is kind of
- [138:28]
A
like about me, right?
- [138:30]
C
Yeah. So you can, can, you can link it to your Facebook, Twitter, Instagram blog and so on.
- [138:36]
A
What's the URL though? Is it.
- [138:39]
C
It's, it's what I just said. It's profile.google.com Jeff Jarvis. Aha. Okay, so that's one. And then last week, or I think it was last week before last, we talked about the French jackets. Yes, that from Alice Karp. Oh, no. Another mention of Alex Carp today.
- [138:57]
A
Well, you've now broken the record, ladies and gentlemen.
- [139:00]
B
That's introducing Alex Carve.
- [139:05]
C
So there's a, there's a variation on the, on the jacket which I think might appeal to all of us and our listeners. The slow learner Dusk jacket. To carry a lot of books.
- [139:17]
A
Oh, I have seen this. It's got a big pocket for books,
- [139:20]
C
Huge pocket for books. Multiple pockets for books everywhere.
- [139:24]
B
We should all get matching jack jackets.
- [139:26]
A
Guys, I might get. It's. It's still 200 bucks. It's not cheap.
- [139:29]
C
It.
- [139:30]
A
Does it come. Oh, it does come in other colors. Oh, doesn't have to be black. Would you like orange, green or blue? That's cute. Yeah, and it's got a big.
- [139:42]
B
We should all get matching intelligent machines. Letterman jackets, they call it.
- [139:47]
A
They call it anti workwear because you should go and read and, and.
- [139:52]
C
But why do you need to care? When do you ever need to carry five books with you?
- [139:57]
A
Like this clown. Yeah, he doesn't even look happy about it, to be honest with you. He seems.
- [140:01]
B
That man looks like he lives in Bushwick and is going to ruin your life.
- [140:05]
A
I have too many books. I don't want to read all these books.
- [140:09]
B
That man is somehow smoking three cigarettes at once in the L train.
- [140:14]
A
Well, does she look any happier? No, I have more determined books.
- [140:19]
B
Omen has four to six fine line tattoos on.
- [140:26]
A
I don't know what that means.
- [140:27]
D
I'm doing Brooklyn discrimination right now.
- [140:30]
A
Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are. Ladies and gentlemen, we do intelligent machines every Wednesday, 2pm Pacific, 5pm Eastern. That's 2100 UTC. Although if Congress gets its way,
- [140:46]
D
I
- [140:46]
A
don't know, it'll all be daylight savings.
- [140:47]
C
We'll have nothing to talk about because there's no AI too.
- [140:51]
A
I don't know. I don't know. Next week, Nate B. Jones, AI strategist, will join us. His YouTube channel, Nate B. Jones is incredible. The following week, finally, Henry Blodgett will show up, will join us. I'm excited about that.
- [141:05]
C
He's got a novel that involves AI in some way.
- [141:09]
A
Ah, okay.
- [141:10]
C
And his newsletter involves AI.
- [141:11]
B
Is this our first convicted security fraudster?
- [141:14]
C
Yes, on the pod, as far as we know. Right.
- [141:17]
B
I mean, that can't be true given the amount of AI boys on this show. But this is the only known one,
- [141:23]
A
I assume the only one we know about. And Philip Shoemaker following that. He is the founder and CEO of Persona Shield. And I've forgotten why that's of interest, but I'm sure it is. There's a reason we booked him, so I'm sure that'll be of great interest. Actually, at some point, I want to get Christina Warren on. She works at GitHub where she as kind of responsible for co pilot their AI. And she announced on the show on MacBreak weekly on Tuesday the release of their desktop application for co pilot, which is quite nice. Quite nice harness. So those are all upcoming shows you can watch.
- [141:59]
C
One more little tip. This. This week. Yes, I want to see the invite yesterday. It's very good.
- [142:03]
A
Oh, I can't wait to see that. I hear good things about it.
- [142:06]
B
I got to see the Odyssey.
- [142:08]
C
Five stars in the Guardian. The Odyssey did 97. Jeff, do you want to go to
- [142:13]
B
the 7:00am IMAX Odyssey scre screening with me?
- [142:18]
A
Is it 70 millimeter film?
- [142:20]
C
It's. It was filmed in IMAX.
- [142:22]
A
Yeah, I know, but I mean, you have to go to a movie theater, of which there are only a handful.
- [142:28]
B
No, no, we're going to screen.
- [142:30]
A
Yeah, yeah, you need to go to 70 millimeter film in Brooklyn to see.
- [142:34]
B
No, you know, AMC.
- [142:37]
A
Is it the real. So it's a 70 millimeter.
- [142:39]
B
It's the super. Yeah, it's the super 70 millimeter one.
- [142:42]
A
I saw Oppenheimer on a 70 millimeter film. And it was.
- [142:46]
B
Oh, did I. Too big.
- [142:48]
A
It's very large.
- [142:49]
B
Well, no, no, we're talking about 70 millimeter. It's the. I'm. It is. It is that.
- [142:53]
A
No. So there's. So there are formats and IMAX is usually distributed digitally. I was Nolan, because he is the most influential director of his generation, is able to convince his backers to shoot it on IMAX film.
- [143:07]
B
Oh yes. These are the ones that are hundreds of pounds.
- [143:10]
A
It's actually the first movie to be shot entirely. I didn't realize this Oppenheimer was not shot entirely in 7 million real air film. But this one is actually. You know what I want to see.
- [143:20]
C
Every reel is only three minutes long, so they can only shoot for three minutes at a time.
- [143:23]
A
They have to make a special platter, sideways platter to hold the film because it's so long.
- [143:31]
C
And it's projected horizontally.
- [143:33]
A
It's projected horizontally. But the movie I want to see. They just showed the trailer publicly for the first time. In fact, it was on the World cup broadcast today. Tom Cruise just. If you want a kick, if you want to laugh. The Tom Cruise movie.
- [143:46]
C
Digger. Yeah.
- [143:48]
A
You've never seen Tom Cruise like this?
- [143:49]
B
No.
- [143:50]
A
Never, ever.
- [143:51]
C
It is. I was quite surprising.
- [143:53]
A
Yes. And I did start watching, thanks to you. Paris Spider Noir. The Black.
- [144:00]
B
Oh, how is that? I need to watch that.
- [144:01]
A
It's good. Nicolas Cage, Never better. Really good.
- [144:06]
C
I just realized I need to rewatch Metropolis because it was.
- [144:09]
A
I haven't seen it yet. Is it.
- [144:10]
C
No, no, no, no, no, no.
- [144:11]
A
The original Megalov.
- [144:15]
B
We all need to also watch Megalop.
- [144:17]
A
Is it out yet? I don't think you can see it. I don't know.
- [144:21]
C
Metropolis was set in 2026.
- [144:25]
A
Welcome to the future, ladies. Exactly why we're doing this show.
- [144:29]
C
It's about AI.
- [144:30]
A
You can watch us live, but you don't have to. You get on demand versions of the show on our website, TWiT TV, IM audio and video there. There's also a YouTube channel with video. Interestingly enough. Great way to share it with friends and family or subscribe on your favorite podcast player. Thanks everybody for joining us. We'll see you next week on Intelligent Machines. Bye bye. If you like what you heard and
- [144:52]
C
you want more of this week's top
- [144:54]
A
stories in tech, well, subscribe to Tech News weekly.
- [144:57]
C
Every Thursday I talk with the journalists making and breaking the tech news.
- [145:01]
A
I'm not a human being.
- [145:05]
B
Not into this animal scene. I'm an intelligent machine.