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MacBreak Weekly 976: Thanks For All the Round Rects
02:00:52
iPadOS 26 & visionOS 26 Unveiled
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- [00:00]
Leo Laporte
It's time for Mac Break Weekly. Andy's here, Alex is here. Jason Snell's got the day off. He's down at Cupertino, of course. And Micah Sargent's here. We'll talk about all the announcements Apple made yesterday at wwdc. Each of us has a different point that we thought was the highlight of the keynote. You'll hear all about that and then a tribute to a Macintosh legend. What more can I say? All of that coming up next on MacBreak weekly podcasts you love from people you Trust. This is TWiT. This is Mac Break Weekly. Episode 976, recorded Tuesday, June 10, 2025. Thanks for all the round wrecks. It's time for Mac Break. Hello everybody. It's time for Mac Break Weekly show. We cover the latest Apple news and there is Apple news. So much Apple news that Jason Snell is in Cupertino, which means we get the pleasure of Micah Sargent.
- [01:03]
Micah Sargent
Ah, hello.
- [01:04]
Leo Laporte
I am here. Hello, Micah. He was with me yesterday as we watched the reveal of Liquid Glass.
- [01:14]
Andy Ihnatko
Liquid Glass and liquid. Never mind. We also watched afterward the platform State of the Union together and I think we both tuned out of Platform.
- [01:24]
Leo Laporte
I was gonna. I was paying attention. Well, I know we were word with friends also here. Andy and I go. He's in the library as usual. Hello, Andrew.
- [01:34]
Alex Lindsay
Hello. Yeah, there's. I actually have a little desktop gadget in my office and a mobile one for here when I'm out of the office that lights up when I'm watching like one of these developer keynote videos or one of those developer session videos. It says. Yeah, you only think you understand what they're talking about.
- [01:49]
Leo Laporte
So you on the head is what it should do to wake you up. Anyway, thank you for being here. And also Alex Lindsay, you did your post office hours post show, did you not?
- [02:03]
Micah Sargent
We did. So we had extra hours and we had Oliver Breidenbach from Boinks on as well as Adam Tao who does Mix Effect and Marcello Moyana who does Stream Voodoo. And so we had some developers, the actual developers on having them get their opinion about some of the stuff that they were looking at.
- [02:23]
Leo Laporte
What were they excited about?
- [02:25]
Micah Sargent
You know, they're definitely. I mean it's all different things but the a lot of them are the app intents is something that a lot of them are thinking about as far as what that looks like. I definitely think that for some of these things, the AI assistant, you know, being able to put anything in. So we talked, kind of talked about.
- [02:43]
Leo Laporte
What it you have access now to the inside of xcode, to models inside your apps.
- [02:48]
Micah Sargent
Yeah. And that was a big discussion point, was being able to. And we think that that's what's really going to grow over time for developers is the ability to not have to write all the code or do all the other things that they need to do, not have to pay something outside. There's many basic decisions that are a little bit more than algorithms, but not super heavy lifting AI that is very, very useful from a developer perspective. And being able to do that right on device without having to pay for tokens and so on and so forth is pretty interesting.
- [03:21]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [03:21]
Micah Sargent
Especially at scale.
- [03:22]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. I think the thing that Micah and I got most excited about was a complete redesign of iPadOS. I feel like almost that was. It was the last thing they talked about. Could have been the one more thing. And I think they buried the lead because that's a huge shift for the iPad.
- [03:40]
Micah Sargent
I think it was the biggest jump towards the Mac that we've seen the iPad take. So that that movement was you definitely. With now having Windows and having better file management. I think that you are. I think that we're two years away from. If you were going to get a MacBook Air, you know, and you have an iPad as another option, you have to think hard about it. Like it's. You know, I think that if they keep.
- [04:05]
Leo Laporte
Well, if you want touch, you get the air.
- [04:07]
Micah Sargent
Exactly. I mean, and there's a lot of things that are easier with the iPad. If you want to pull your keyboard off and you know, and watch it, use it as different things. I think that the iPad has a lot of advantages.
- [04:19]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. I think the big boy feature, of course, is the new windowing system. They still have stage manager in there, but they're going to give you really effectively a windowing system. Just like any PC with floating windows. You can move around of arbitrary size and I don't know what the maximum is, but you could see on their quilt five different windows open. They also have a menu bar, which is hysterical. It's centered. There's no Apple in it and it's centered. But know about this iPad. But that's a menu bar.
- [04:53]
Alex Lindsay
There's a. Yeah. I think that any commentary on the UI changes with Liquid Glass and otherwise, of course, has to start and end with. Yeah, but this is just the first cut at it. We don't know what's. And they're going to listen to feedback. Yeah. I'll say that.
- [05:09]
Micah Sargent
Gosh.
- [05:10]
Alex Lindsay
In both IPADOs and macOS, they decided to be A little freaky with the menu bars and that's going to take a lot of getting used to.
- [05:18]
Leo Laporte
You know, of course, immediately I saw people say, oh, accessibility, this is terrible for accessibility. The new Liquid Glass, actually, there'll be a switch. There's got to be a switch.
- [05:29]
Alex Lindsay
Stephen. Stephen Aquino. Aquino, who was like one of my favorite, along with Shelly Brisbane when my favorite writers about Apple Accessibility, actually bumped into like the head of accessibility at Apple after the keynote and asked her like, what are we going to be good? And she confirmed that, yeah, all the settings that are in normal Mac OS today that allow you to basically adjust the UI to, to, to enable accessibility for people with all kinds of vision and vision differences are going to be enabled. So you will be able to disable, deactivate, customize, tweak, whatever you can do today. You'll be able to do that in 26 with, with liquid Glass.
- [06:10]
Leo Laporte
So we'll get back to Liquid Glass ipados. But before, I want to show you something while he's still here. Coming to us from a forest somewhere nearby. Anthony Nielsen wearing his Vision Pro with the brand new, oh, all new Persona that actually first of all looks like you, Anthony.
- [06:30]
Andy Ihnatko
That looks a lot more like Anthony.
- [06:31]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, sounds like you. Still a little bit blurry, but boy, that's realistic. When you squint, you know, when you wink your eye, you know, you see wrinkles and I mean it looks real. That's pretty good.
- [06:44]
Andy Ihnatko
I think that's definitely so much more misty and blurred and the person vaguely looked like themselves, but now I could recognize that as.
- [06:55]
Alex Lindsay
So like, like it's someone's high school photo and they're dreaming about that person, you know, in the background.
- [07:00]
Leo Laporte
It's kind of like you're in a dream, Anthony. No, but I think it's much more usable. Much more usable. So in fact, I think that was the biggest, the single biggest ends. Oh, and the other thing that Anthony's really excited about is the ability, and this was rumored before, to use the PlayStation VR 2 Sense controller. So you now have controllers for your hands, which is important for gaming.
- [07:20]
Micah Sargent
I think one thing that a lot of us found, a bunch of us got into after hours or in office hours during the show and we were all just watching it. And one of the things that was funny is as soon as we saw them drawing in 3D, everyone searched for the Logitech Muse and there was nothing. Nothing was there. Like there was. And so this is the pencil that they showed, but they didn't. But the Logitech Muse, they Didn't have a website. It now does. There's now a web page and there was like this six line press release that says this will be available later this year. So obviously Logitech wasn't. Didn't have all their. When this was. You're gonna talk about it, but why.
- [07:59]
Leo Laporte
Would you want this as a design tool? It's. Oh, yeah, like, draw in the air.
- [08:03]
Micah Sargent
I saw that. I was like, take my money. Like just. This is. Yeah, like it. I am ready to. I'll pay for it now and wait for six months for this. I mean, if it was. If it was a Kickstarter. So the problem is that. So we've had Meta, had this Oculus, had this HTC has it where you can take the controllers and you have these little pointers and you can kind of paint, but it feels like you're drawing with bricks and being able to have a pen and be able to, you know, do it like a. It's basically like a Wacom tablet, but with in 3D and being able to draw and to do those things is going to be. And there's. There's some great. I already watched a talk. One of the sessions was about how to build your own sculpting tool with it. So it has haptic response. So it's a pen, and as you hit the surface, it vibrates to let.
- [08:49]
Andy Ihnatko
You know you're pushing into the surface.
- [08:50]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [08:51]
Andy Ihnatko
That's neat.
- [08:52]
Micah Sargent
And so it is. And this is the beginning, you know.
- [08:55]
Leo Laporte
Or you could draw on an actual surface and then you would really know.
- [08:58]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, but I don't want to be a skeptic. You know, the thing is, is that when you're trying to like it, clay is pretty. You know, it's messy.
- [09:07]
Leo Laporte
Right. So now you can draw on clay, not be messy.
- [09:10]
Micah Sargent
And. Well, but again, when you start character development and character design and so on and so forth, like, they're showing, like little, like, oh, let's just play and make, you know, push some stuff.
- [09:17]
Leo Laporte
Well, it's kind of like Squidge, when you push it into the clay and stuff.
- [09:20]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, there's a. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. They. There have been. I was in an R and D facility in the late 90s that had this. But it had. It had gloves that would actually push back against your fingers. SG. SGI. And like a $4 million room. And it was a huge cable that came down from the ceiling that was suspended on a helmet. And you'd go, give me a sphere. This. And when you grabbed onto the vertices, you could feel them as you pulled them apart. And I was like, this is going to be the future of modeling. Or 25 years later, almost 30 years later, we still haven't seen it, but this is almost all the character. When you look at a 3D model of characters for Marvel or for Star wars or whatever, almost all of them are being sculpted in 3D, and they're using a lot of them. There are a variety of proprietary tools. The most popular public tool is called Zbrush. And Zbrush lets you paint, you know, paint into 3D. And. And so this is going to let you do that. But the problem really is when you. When you're doing it in Zbrush, when you're painting in Zbrush, the problem is you have this 2D flat plane that you're sitting, drawing through, and you have to kind of think about it. Whereas this is going to let you walk around it, look at it, you know, sculpt it. I think that it's. It's going to be pretty powerful. And again, it's not that it hasn't been possible before, but the tools were really pretty crude in Oculus and htc, and using those controllers just felt like you were drawing with a rock all the time. So I think that this. Now what they're showing it for is just measuring things and drawing things out and everything else, and that's great, too. But I think that there's a lot that's going to happen with this. With starting to have better controls.
- [11:01]
Leo Laporte
In order to make this and the PlayStation controllers work, they had to increase the frame rate of the hand tracking to 90 hertz, which is. Everybody's very excited about that. Right, Anthony? You're excited about that 90 hertz? Holy cow. It's much smoother. I mean, the gaming experience as it was, wasn't. You need that. Yeah. Also look to scroll. And we were all wondering, how the hell's that gonna work? Do you look at the scroll bar and then go up and down with your eyes?
- [11:29]
Andy Ihnatko
What is that?
- [11:30]
Leo Laporte
Like, scrollable page? If you look down, it'll go down. I haven't done anything in here besides create the. You had to put the developer beta on there.
- [11:40]
Alex Lindsay
I just got it on like an.
- [11:41]
Leo Laporte
Hour ago, so I haven't really messed around. You know what? The other thing that's very impressive. And they talked a little bit about this happening to the AirPods later this year. The audio quality in your Vision Pro is very good. You sound like you're on a mic. Yeah, well, I don't know what I sound like, but from my experience, I can tell you you sound very good. That's. I don't know. Is that better than it was, Alex? It sounds like.
- [12:08]
Micah Sargent
I don't know if it's any better. Apple does an incredible job at, you know, the watching. The. I called. I called my wife and she picked up. I said, what are you talking on? And she's like, my watch.
- [12:19]
Leo Laporte
No, that's true.
- [12:20]
Micah Sargent
So a lot of the algorithms that they're using have gotten extremely good at getting rid of reflection, getting rid of exterior noise. All of those things have gotten much better. And so I think that this is just another. I think those things are crossing over between the iPad and the MacBooks and the watch and the phone, and Apple's probably the best at it right now as far as a piece of hardware that does it.
- [12:43]
Leo Laporte
Wow. Yeah. So anyway, that was our back. Back door to the Vision Pro segment. Sorry about that, but I just. I didn't want Anthony to have to stay in that thing all day. So I was just really impressed with the all new Personas, the new controllers, the higher frame rate. You know, couldn't you stick a clock to the wall before I know you could leave your apps?
- [13:07]
Micah Sargent
It's just such. Not. I've talked to a couple people that are pretty excited about it. It's just so not how I use my Vision Pro that I would care about where things are. I don't put it on and walk around the room and go a bunch of.
- [13:18]
Leo Laporte
But I remember Jason Snell losing his settings in the garage, especially the crown.
- [13:25]
Micah Sargent
I have definitely lose tracking stuff.
- [13:28]
Leo Laporte
So this preserves it past a reboot. Like, it just keeps it. From what I understand, it's like, it'll.
- [13:32]
Micah Sargent
Pin to that, like, specific room.
- [13:34]
Leo Laporte
And before, you would see things in.
- [13:36]
Micah Sargent
Other rooms, even when you left that room, like through the wall.
- [13:39]
Alex Lindsay
But now you won't see everything in.
- [13:42]
Leo Laporte
Your house, even though your second one room. That's a big.
- [13:45]
Andy Ihnatko
Oh, I see. Okay. So the actual sort of structure of the home obscures. Yeah. Because I can remember going upstairs, looking down and still seeing that in the living room, there was a screen there. And now it would be obscured by the actual floor, which is nice. So really quick, though, it sounds like the both of you are saying it's very rare that you ever move around in it. You're. It's more of a stationary device for you.
- [14:09]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, I mean, it's really designed that way. So there are reasons to do it. There are. You know, so there's things like when you when. If you use something like jig space, you might want to walk around something, but you need kind of an open space to do that. There are things oh you want to show if you want to be shown something, but rarely am. I like my use case is usually I find a comfortable place with a lot of open space around me so that I can look at stuff. But I'm usually the immersive stuff is expecting you. In fact, it warns you if you start moving. It starts like, hey, I don't think you should do that. You can't see anything. And then a lot of the other viewing, if I'm watching a movie, I'm creating a virtual, you know, 200 inch screen TV, you know, screen in front of me and watching a film. So those are the kind of things that I'm. That I'm not really moving for. There's one app that, that Adam Savage talked about. I can't think of it at the top of my head that X rays your whole house as you walk around that one. You walk around a lot.
- [15:03]
Leo Laporte
I've seen a demo of that. Yeah, it's like photogrammetry kind of thing almost.
- [15:06]
Micah Sargent
Well, it's like it's using the lidar for it and it just slowly builds a mesh of your entire house as you walk through. And what's interesting is you see all these relationships between rooms that you didn't.
- [15:16]
Leo Laporte
Didn't know. On the other side of wall is my garage.
- [15:18]
Micah Sargent
Your head is like I had this thing like I have to run some wires to one of my rooms and I thought I had to go through all this stuff and I realized, oh no, no, that room is just sitting right over top of my basement. Like I can just go right up through the floor and. But it, it's not how it. It's not how it lived in my head, you know, like it was. And so it's fascinating.
- [15:35]
Leo Laporte
There's some new environments. Anthony, can there there. The chat room is asking you to change your backdrop to Jupiter. Do you have Jupiter? I, I don't. I haven't really messed with the zoom app here.
- [15:44]
Micah Sargent
So I'm not exactly sure how.
- [15:45]
Leo Laporte
You know what's really cool? The lip sync is excellent. You know, I'm thinking about 25. No, 30, no more than that. Years ago when I played Dev Nol and I had to wear a body suit and I had to have puppeteers and I was hooked up to a Silicon Graphics onyx and the lip sync wasn't even close to this good.
- [16:03]
Micah Sargent
Well, and this is, I mean this is good. I mean, of course Epic released Metahuman.
- [16:08]
Leo Laporte
There's even better now.
- [16:10]
Micah Sargent
But Epic released Metahuman last week and it was. It blew me away.
- [16:16]
Leo Laporte
Like, what would you wear to get Metahuman?
- [16:19]
Micah Sargent
A web camera. Two web cameras.
- [16:20]
Leo Laporte
Wow.
- [16:21]
Micah Sargent
Like two Brios. Two little Brios.
- [16:25]
Leo Laporte
And Metahuman, you could be a virtual character.
- [16:27]
Micah Sargent
It's a virtual face. So one of them is pointed at your face and the other one's pointed at your body. And the Metahuman, you can build it, move it around, adjust it, and then say, okay, that's what I want. And it's already been rigged for you. So all you got to do now is apply motion capture to it. And again, it's really good in real time. And then it can do post processing to make it even better in post. So it's truly impressive. The demo that they did last week is one of the more amazing demos I've seen about doing animation, other than the thousands of Stormtrooper AI videos that came out over the weekend that were hilarious.
- [17:09]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah.
- [17:10]
Leo Laporte
This is Unreal Engine 5, right.
- [17:12]
Micah Sargent
5.6, I think.
- [17:14]
Leo Laporte
Okay.
- [17:16]
Micah Sargent
But if you do a search for like in the YouTube, if you do a search for the Metahuman, there's like a five minute metahuman clip from the stage from their keynote. And that's where you'll see the demo of it. That's just.
- [17:28]
Leo Laporte
So could I. Do you buy this? What do you. It's free, so can I put it.
- [17:34]
Micah Sargent
Epic.
- [17:35]
Leo Laporte
Okay. So I would put this on my laptop. Do I need Windows?
- [17:41]
Micah Sargent
You can put it. Windows is going to run better. I think it will run on the Mac, but you really want like a game machine, like a 4090 card with it, you know, or even a probably 2090. Yeah.
- [17:52]
Leo Laporte
I do have a Linux box with all that fancy stuff in it.
- [17:55]
Micah Sargent
I don't. Yeah, I don't know what. I don't know what Unreal does with Linux, but it could work and says.
- [18:00]
Leo Laporte
It'Ll run on Linux.
- [18:01]
Micah Sargent
So there you go.
- [18:01]
Leo Laporte
And I would attach two cameras to that and then I could be in it. I would like to have a virtual character. I'm just saying. Then I wouldn't have to dress up.
- [18:11]
Andy Ihnatko
Let's turn this episode. Actually, let's just do. We'll just.
- [18:13]
Leo Laporte
Everybody put on their helmets.
- [18:15]
Andy Ihnatko
We'll go through the process of installing this and we'll just do that.
- [18:20]
Alex Lindsay
How do you know that one of us isn't doing that already?
- [18:23]
Leo Laporte
Oh, speaking of content creation, they also said they're now going to support the Instacam. This is the X5 natively. Is that a big deal, Alex? For content creation I don't have to buy an Ursa.
- [18:37]
Micah Sargent
Yeah. So they have to make it more available to other things. The one thing I haven't been able to drive down into is whether the Canon dual lenses are being supported in stereo. But what it means is that for Insta360 and the GoPros and some of the canons, you can get the 360 and 180. Yeah, it just makes it much easier for people. The problem is that a lot of us can shoot that content, but trying to deliver that content to other people has become a real problem because now.
- [19:07]
Leo Laporte
They all have to.
- [19:09]
Micah Sargent
So now. But now it's much, much easier to get people to, to not have to repackage it. They're making it easier for us to package. It's not that you couldn't do it before, but before it was kind of an art project. And so now it's, it's a much more accessible project to put those things in. And so while they are still obviously pushing down the path of a. Of this new 180 degree Blackmagic camera, which interestingly enough they didn't talk about very much on the show, probably because it hasn't.
- [19:33]
Leo Laporte
Isn't it showed it briefly. That's all they showed.
- [19:36]
Micah Sargent
And then. But, but they are making it, you know, making sure that if you've got some. If you're not going to spend $30,000 on a camera, if you have $5,000, you can get an R5. These smaller. These insta360s are much less expensive and you can still create content with those as well. So it's. So I think that that was a big step forward. Obviously the biggest problem for the Apple Vision Pro is content. So find making it easier for people to generate content is a. Is a big part of the puzzle.
- [20:02]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [20:03]
Alex Lindsay
Well, based on that I really wanted to. I really want to ask you. What. How do you. Is it a really big deal that now the Mac can render stuff out to the Vision Pro or stream stuff out to the Vision Pro and use the Vision Pro almost just as like a Mac accessory? Does that like make it more relevant and more important or is that just a. Okay, that's nice for gaming, but whatever.
- [20:21]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, I wasn't. I've talked to some folks that have been doing that and they really like it. To me that I have to admit that just didn't jump out as something that I needed. And so I haven't really applied Myself, my. I haven't applied a lot of attention to it yet. You know, I can put my Mac. I find that one of the things that was really interesting about the Vision Pro was the. Your eyes. For your eyes only. It is the most for your eyes only ever. Like, you have registered, you put the headset on and said you are you. And now I can see some companies and, you know, organizations and even, you know, where they really want to make sure you're the only one watching. Because remember, that's kind of a protected space. It's very hard to record. Right. So if you don't want people to screen record, you could. Theoretically, I could see companies buying these and saying when we're having our top secret discussions or whatever, you got to put the headset on, you know, to, to. To see what we're going to show you. And then that way they can be sure you're not screen capturing. They can be sure you're not recording any other way. There's no. Really take a picture of it. There's no way to take a picture of it. So that's.
- [21:24]
Leo Laporte
Well, you can now have multiple users in the same space. Right.
- [21:29]
Micah Sargent
I think that's going to be really great.
- [21:30]
Leo Laporte
Everybody should buy Vision Pro and you guys can watch a movie together.
- [21:34]
Micah Sargent
Well, I think there's watching the movie together, but I think what they really showed there was the ability to interact with an object. So we can look at something that we're working on, whether it's. And this has been something that the HoloLens could do for quite some time, which is that you have an engine or you have something, a piece of architecture that you're looking at and you want to talk about it. Not having the same space that you can stand in and talk about it makes a difference. Yeah, it's interesting.
- [22:02]
Leo Laporte
Here's a video of a guy using metahuman to create a non.
- [22:08]
Andy Ihnatko
Wow, look at that little character.
- [22:10]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, yeah. Okay, very interesting.
- [22:15]
Alex Lindsay
The other on stage demo is just amazing. Like, here's what I got there again.
- [22:21]
Leo Laporte
Alex should show it to us. Alex, show it to us.
- [22:24]
Micah Sargent
Yes.
- [22:25]
Leo Laporte
Oh my God, his hair's on fire.
- [22:27]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, exactly. So, but this is. So you can see the brio here. So he's talking into the brio and you can see him there.
- [22:35]
Leo Laporte
Single camera. Where's the second?
- [22:36]
Micah Sargent
Then they. They show a wide here. Hold on, let's see.
- [22:39]
Leo Laporte
So he does have a second kind of body cam.
- [22:41]
Micah Sargent
Yeah. I think that they. They started off here and somewhere.
- [22:45]
Leo Laporte
There we go.
- [22:46]
Micah Sargent
They started with just him as when.
- [22:48]
Alex Lindsay
They bring, when they bring the wizard out from behind the curtain, you see like the. You see the automatic rigging, you see how AI is figuring out positions, stuff like that.
- [22:57]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, there was one where there was amazing. A wide shot just for a second. Let's see, let's see. Here's. There it is, hold on. So there's the wide shot that he's on right there.
- [23:18]
Leo Laporte
So this is what I was doing as Dev Null with all of this shooting and this special sensor suit and all of that.
- [23:24]
Micah Sargent
Exactly what you were doing. Now, the resolution is not the same as the Vicon, but it's probably the same resolution as what you probably had a motion analysis. I think, actually, I think that Dev Null was like it was anyway, but back then, this resolution is probably the same as what you had.
- [23:39]
Leo Laporte
It's 1994.
- [23:41]
Micah Sargent
1994. This is the same resolution today's motion capture can be. The biggest thing is, is that it's a higher frame rate. So these webcams are running at 30 frames a second. Your Vicon system is running at 480 frames a second. And the reason that that's important is because that's going to capture all that motion and it gives you a lot of extra it over samples. What you need so that when there's idiosyncrasies or things that aren't working, it can correct for them. You know, it can see that this is a little spike in the movement and it can, you know, say that that can't happen. So we can clean the noise with what we would call a. A Butterworth filter. Anyway. So the. It's literally just throw some butter on it.
- [24:21]
Leo Laporte
A Mrs. Butterworth filter.
- [24:22]
Micah Sargent
No, there's a butter. It's actually the researcher who wrote it. It's called a Butterworth filter. And it smooths out your motion. It moves out a lot of different. It's a general convolution kernel.
- [24:30]
Leo Laporte
So.
- [24:31]
Micah Sargent
But the, but the. But it's a Butterworth filter. But we just. We used to throw it. We use it when we were doing motion capture. We just, just throw a little butter on it. It's fine. Yeah. So any. So the frame rate is still something that the motion capture has. But this is going to really change how quickly. Now Metahuman is now built into Unreal Engine. The motion capture is all built into it. So for free until you start making money. The way Epic works is everything's free until you're making a million dollars or whatever.
- [25:02]
Leo Laporte
That's the way it should be.
- [25:04]
Micah Sargent
It's a great business model anyway. But between this and. I think that this, you'll see some generation. The bummer is that because Apple and Epic aren't getting along that we, you know, it creates all this like we don't have in the Vision Pro. I think part of the content problem that Apple has is that they're in this fight with Epic and so they're not taking the best platform that has all these tools and really supporting them in the headset.
- [25:33]
Leo Laporte
Although yesterday Apple talked a lot about metal 4 and talked about gaming.
- [25:39]
Micah Sargent
And they keep on trying to unlock the gaming. I feel like they've got a little Lockpit kit and they just keep on trying.
- [25:46]
Leo Laporte
They're trying. They have new games.
- [25:49]
Micah Sargent
Okay, let's try the other one. Let's try this one over here. And they can't quite open it up. I think it's hard because the gamers, I think, are very well planted where they are. The performance. It's hard to get the same performance that you're getting from like a 4090 card on even a Mac Pro. So the gamers are, you know, hard to move forward. I think you would have to write. The problem is when you port the games, you lose a lot of. It's very inefficient. And so what you really would have to do for the games is write them from the ground up on metal to get. To make sure that they would really take full advantage of the operating system. And then you might see that. That kind of performance. But if there's any kind of abstraction in between it that causes, you know, you're not getting quite the same performance as you get on a PC, so that's problematic.
- [26:32]
Leo Laporte
So from the two Vision Pro owners, I guess we lost Anthony. He got tired of playing it in the Helme. These seem like good moves forward. Is this what you'd hope for, Alex? From the vision of this. Yeah, I.
- [26:47]
Micah Sargent
What I'm really waiting for is that the Black Magic camera to get out into the.
- [26:51]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, because that's going to add to.
- [26:53]
Micah Sargent
The content when that. Because the big thing about that is, is that you have a real camera that has a real workflow. So it's not just the camera, it's the fact that Resolve is being built to take all the metadata and all the stuff that's coming from the camera, process that for you and be able to deliver something to the headset and you got to have the whole workflow. That's what stopped up this industry. The industry that I'm in, that I've been doing, I've Been doing immersive for 30 years now. Some version, stills, video, 3D, all kinds of other things. And the thing that makes it hard is that everything's an art project. Everything is like you cobble together a bunch of weird things together to get out what we want and everything's a little quirky and things just don't quite work and. And I think Apple's still dealing. Like the reason we see so little from Apple is because that's their workflow too. It's very quirky and hard and everything's there. And so it's taking a long time to get this blackmagic workflow moving. But once we do that, I think it opens up for an enormous amount of content that we haven't seen before. You know, that, that I think will be. I look at things that I go to now and I go, oh, this would be really cool if I was in my headset and it was immersive and so on and so forth. And I shoot a lot of spatial stuff and think about what it would look like in 180 degree immersive.
- [28:08]
Leo Laporte
Well, we did things kind of inside out. That's the Vision OS 26 version of the show. Sorry, no jingle. You can add it in post though if you, if you want. John Ashley, we are going to take a break. When we come back. Oh, in post. In post, never. Well, we. That was enough. That was sufficient. When we come back, we will. Actually let's talk about Liquid Glass because that's a big change that everybody's going to experience on all versions of Apple devices. You're watching Mac Break Weekly. Micah Sargent filling in for Jason Snell who got skunked in the Relay FM upgrade draft. He only got a couple. Mike Hurley almost ran the board. We'll razz Jason next week on the show. Also Andy Anako and Alex Lindsay. Our show today brought to you by by Bitwarden. I do want to tell everybody this is the way to go. If you need a password manager or a pass key manager, or you want to manage secrets like your SSH keys or your API keys, this is the choice. Certainly my choice. Steve Gibson's choice. 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And I always underscore this, anytime you use cryptography of any kind, you want it to be open source. Bitwarden's open Source code is GPL licensed, it's on GitHub, anyone can look at it and of course they have it regularly audited by third party experts. Bit warden meets SOC2 type 2 GDPR HIPAA CCPA compliance. It's ISO 27001:2002 certified. It means any company can use it and be in full compliance. You should be using it. You should be using it at home too. Get started today with Bitwarden's free trial of a teams or enterprise plan at work or as an individual. Get started for free forever on every device. Unlimited passwords and passkeys. Fido two hardware keys as well. Bitwarden.com twit there's no reason not to have Bitwarden on your device. Use@bitwarden.com Twit we thank them so much for their support of MacBreak weekly. As Flow Connect says in our discord, Bit Warden is simply the best. I agree. I agree. That's awesome. All right, back to the crazy quilts from Apple. Matt, before we do, before we go into the deets, let me ask each of you what your highlight was. Andy, what I presume you watched the event was what, what will you say was the highlight for you?
- [34:43]
Alex Lindsay
Oh, overall I like the fact that they didn't. There weren't any. Apart from liquid glass maybe, but there wasn't and there wasn't any. Like one Huge. This is the future of the company. We've done, we've, we've, we've we've benefited the entire of humanity with this new thing we've done. A lot of it was just incremental but useful changes to things that you're already using every day. Like all Micah talked about it earlier, but just the improvements to IPADOs to remove some things that make it a little more annoying to use as a primary device that hit very, very hard. Simple things.
- [35:20]
Leo Laporte
You use an iPad, right? A lot of the time?
- [35:22]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah, exactly. I'm using one right now. I always have one.
- [35:25]
Leo Laporte
For instance, you'll be able to in the fall with a iPad OS 26 use it for a double end recording. And they claim we'll see. But I wouldn't be surprised that the AirPods are going to have high quality audio recording. We might not need these microphones. You know, we might be able to use the iPad, do a show from the iPad with double ender if you want. Perfect quality. I think this is really interesting. The iPad's becoming a much more powerful device. Yeah.
- [35:51]
Alex Lindsay
And I don't want to steal everybody else's thunder, but just talking about simple things like the way that they've snuck so much more power into Spotlight. I mean the Spotlight has always been, I think, the most often used power feature of the iPad and the Mac. Just the ability of like it almost doesn't matter that I have a dock or not because the 20 most useful apps, it's just instinctive command space and type, the first couple letters, select and go. And the fact that it's always been the most useful part of the operating system. But also adding the features of, well, now what if we are able to simply build, give it commands through Spotlight and say, hey, send this message to this person and tell her I'm on my way without having to like, okay, well why do I necessarily have to go through messages? Why do I necessarily have to look things up? The fact that the fact that Alfred and Recast have been such popular utilities shows you how simple it is to simply have a. Not a command line but to type a simple English sentence that clearly and concisely explains what you'd like the computer to do. And the computer has certainly enough computing power to work out. Add the add to my calendar meeting with Debbie on. On December 13th at 2pm at the place with the, with the horse in front of it.
- [37:12]
Leo Laporte
So Thomas Paul man who created Raycast and I'm a big Raycast believer. I know Andy, in the past we've talked about Alfred and Ray Cast and you don't like to have them on a Mac because then it makes a Mac that you haven't used before kind of unusable. So it would certainly make a big difference. But Thomas was very quick to jump on X and say so Apple added shortcuts, quick keys, clipboard history and the menu item to Spotlight. Hey, what about. And there is a long list of features that Raycast has that Apple doesn't have. Raycast is, has thousands of available, more than 2,000 community available extensions. So there's nothing that Spotlight can do that Raycast won't be able to do. And there's a whole lot of Raycast.
- [37:58]
Alex Lindsay
Does at Spotlight and arguably it's good advert. I'm sure that he can leverage that very nicely by saying, hey, now that you're used to using a Spotlight thing to do more than just simply search for a file on your, on your drive, why not actually automate? Why not get the 230 IQ version of this? And yes, it costs a little bit of money and there's a short learning curve, but it's so much more powerful. But the idea of giving this basic power like maybe 75% of the most useful features of these third party utilities and putting that into Spotlight is a huge, huge plus. Well, that was the things they've hidden into this like oh, for years people have been asking why is the Clipboard the same as it was in 1984? Why can't I go through my Clipboard history and have multiple things inside a clipboard? Oh, okay, that is a good idea. Let's throw that into Spotlight. Instead of adding more user interface, instead of adding more dinguses for adding more icons and things to understand it's like, no, just leave it. A Spotlight is basically your personal assistant, only instead of being slow mo, it's something that's actually functional and grateful for the opportunity to help you.
- [39:08]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. And I have to say as a avid Raycast user, when I saw that list I went, oh, I could do that. Oh, I could do that.
- [39:15]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah.
- [39:15]
Leo Laporte
The problem is that I can do almost anything. And you're building into Spotlight the things that people really want and I suspect for a lot of people Spotlight will be all they'll need. Right. Even for me.
- [39:28]
Micah Sargent
Yeah. And I think that anytime you're building something that you kind of feel like Apple should have done right the first time and you're fixing it for them, you know, they may come by and fix it. I mean, you know, I, I had a plugin for Final Cut that was just fixing green screen for. Because the green screen keyer and Final Cut was so bad in seven that it was just like, well, we'll just put our keyer out. And, you know, we. It generated hundreds of thousands of dollars a month for a long time. $100,000 a year. A year for a long time. You know, year, you know, five or six or seven years with almost no effort. Like, just. Just kept on printing money. We updated every once in a while. We had a new operating system, new final cut or whatever, but a very minor amount of work. And then Apple, you know, but we knew that someday that the song was going to end. You know, Apple really finally put in a better keyer into the new final cut. And I was like, well, that's the end of that. We'll move on now. Wasn't that a great trip? But, you know, I think that if you're. If you're building something that is, again, fixing something that Apple probably should have done or could do better, you have to know that you sit on soft ground and you should enjoy it while it lasts, you know, because I think that Apple's going to keep on making that, operating any of their apps. They're going to continue to improve them. And if you prove to do well, then you are now something. They're like, oh, well, why don't we add that in?
- [40:49]
Leo Laporte
What, Micah, struck you as the highlight of the week?
- [40:54]
Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I'm going to go with something kind of small because I think that it is a sort of the spirit of the update. Really, what it feels like with the redesign is about getting the operating system and its UI out of the way. And so something early that they shared that I think really showed that quickly and gave us a little bit of delight as well, was the update to the lock screen. So with the new lock screen, not only do we have this sort of dynamically generated text that will adjust to the photographs that you have and the subject that you have. But think about what all this lock screen feature is doing. You're very quickly seeing the computational ability of iOS and iPadOS. You are seeing liquid glass and what it can do. You're seeing the dynamic ability of liquid glass and that feeling that you're getting, and you're seeing that they're holding true to what they're saying about getting out of the way. Because one of the features they showed was as notifications start to come in on your lock screen, it knows what the subject of the photograph is and starts to move it up and keep it in. In frame, which I think is fantastic. So all of that is what I.
- [42:13]
Leo Laporte
Show my show my screen, if you would, John Ashley. Because this is the Apple demo for people to see that, yeah, admittedly, accessibility might suffer from this, but you can always turn it off. And the fact that it can do this is so gorgeous. You're right. It focuses on the content, doesn't it?
- [42:34]
Andy Ihnatko
And that's their whole thing. That's what they kept saying throughout the day.
- [42:36]
Leo Laporte
That's out of the way.
- [42:37]
Andy Ihnatko
Let's get it out of the way. Let's let you focus on your content. And I think this was sort of a wrapped gift package that showed the dynamics of the animations that are built in. It showed the sort of quirky, fun aspect of it and also showed, hey, here is what computational technology is doing in the background. It doesn't have to be this thing that comes forward and says, let me help you with this problem.
- [43:04]
Micah Sargent
And also only the top. You know, if. If Android ever decided to go down this path, if you look at all the motion that it has and all the rendering that it's doing, only the top phones will be able to do it.
- [43:14]
Leo Laporte
So. And I imagine a lot of this will be available on iPhone 16 and later. Right? I mean, this is heavy computation.
- [43:22]
Micah Sargent
I mean, it probably is. I would guess it probably is. 14 and above is probably what it can. I don't know. But I'm guessing that 14 was a pretty big jump from a. From a processing perspective. But it will go back a little bit, but not too far back, maybe. But I think that, again, I think that less expensive, you know, when it comes to Apple, has to constantly be looking at, you know, how do you do things, take advantage of what you have. And what they're getting really good at is all these things getting tied together, you know, tightly wound. You know, all the having all of these oss look the same, having them, you know, the continuity and coherence and all the other things that are happening to keep everything kind of moving together, continues to build that. That story, but it also, they're doing things that are hard. And by doing things that are hard, it's a bit of a technological moat from. If you went to something else, you'd feel it, you know, like that's the. That's kind of the intention there.
- [44:15]
Leo Laporte
What Was your highlight?
- [44:17]
Alex Lindsay
IPhone 11 is the earliest phone that will support 26. That doesn't necessarily mean that will support the new UI and everything, but it.
- [44:24]
Leo Laporte
Says that, oh, yeah, it'll support 26. I just, that's. I knew that. But I was wondering, in fact, that was the other big story is no, this is the last version of Mac OS for Intel.
- [44:36]
Alex Lindsay
I'll say only because it's relevant. I'm very, very disappointed in ipados 26 because my first generation M1 iPad Pro 12.9 and it's not compatible. The earliest one that is compatible is the Generation 3 12.9-inch iPad Pro. And the thing is, this thing is it's an Apple product, so it is ticking along like a champ. And I'm like, ah, do I really want to spend $1,000 for a new iPad just to get. I might have to just simply say I gotta wait until 2026.
- [45:05]
Leo Laporte
One has to wonder if that was part of the calculus is we can't get people to move to the newer iPads. How do we get them to move?
- [45:11]
Alex Lindsay
That would be mean.
- [45:12]
Micah Sargent
But that's also why Apple wants the games to work is because the games, you know, theoretically high performance games pushes. Puts a lot of pressure on the system. It's just that they, you know, again, they. I just don't feel like their game approach generates games that have any stickiness at all. Like it's not. And the problem is I think Apple doesn't want to go deeply down the. They allow the games on there, but they're not wanting to necessarily go down the.
- [45:40]
Leo Laporte
AAA title.
- [45:41]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, the. The first person shooters.
- [45:43]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [45:43]
Micah Sargent
Is the. I mean that's the thing that drives bot purchases.
- [45:46]
Leo Laporte
I do want to play that new Zoi game though. That looked pretty cool. The Sims first person Sims Enzo enzoi How many of you show of hands will turn all of your icons to clear colorless floating bits of.
- [46:01]
Micah Sargent
I think it's a cool thing to look at, but I'm like, I don't think I would actually want to have my phone.
- [46:08]
Leo Laporte
Alex, I didn't ask you what was your highlight from like one thing from.
- [46:12]
Micah Sargent
The whole day mic selection on the iPad.
- [46:16]
Leo Laporte
That's huge. I agree. Transformational.
- [46:19]
Micah Sargent
I mean I would say that that leaks into what we talked about before which is double ending on the iPad. You know, so, so I look at this like when we think about kits for Michael Krasny show of being able to take an iPad and an MV6 and just send it to somebody and.
- [46:31]
Leo Laporte
Just go, that's all they need.
- [46:32]
Micah Sargent
Here's what you need for the podcast and it'll just do the thing, you know, and I think that that's. I think that's pretty.
- [46:40]
Leo Laporte
They even mention podcasters in context of the double ender. I really think that that's interesting how much they're paying attention to the iPad as a creative tool for.
- [46:51]
Micah Sargent
A lot of us have thought about, oh, the iPad would be a great platform for this. But there was just a couple little things like this missing, like where would they save their file and how would I do this thing and what would I. What. How would this look?
- [47:02]
Leo Laporte
They need another port. So you could have a one drive.
- [47:06]
Micah Sargent
You can absolutely, you know, plug into, you can plug out. You know, we can send them with a little breakout that will break out into, you know, other ports. The USB C is very useful and that USB C can. I don't know how many channels it can take in. I know that I've done 16 channels into an iPad. So the iPad can easily do a lot of those things. And that's with an older iPad, not even a new one, but thinking about like a $329 or whatever iPad with an MV6 or something like it and being able to send that to someone and that's how they get into a broadcast. Especially now that they've moved the camera to a place that makes sense on the side instead of on the top. For the iPad, I think it's pretty interesting. So I think that that would be probably the thing that the kind of the nod towards that thing. The other thing I would say is shortcuts and being able to. The intelligent shortcuts and the integration of AI into xcode and the ability. We haven't tested it, but we did talk about it last night that you should be able to put your own tokens in, to put in Claude or whatever. So it's coming with ChatGPT kind of easily built in, but you can put other.
- [48:16]
Leo Laporte
If you have an API key, you.
- [48:18]
Micah Sargent
Can put it in, put the other API keys in. And so you should be able to just start doing code generation that way as well as the intelligence. I think that the intelligent shortcuts when it matures is going to be huge. It's like when I walk into the house, I want you to turn this light on, this light on and this light on. That's all I want.
- [48:35]
Leo Laporte
I'm stepping a little bit on my pick, but we're going to take a break and I will give you my highlight from last from yesterday's Apple event. You're watching Mac Break Weekly. Alex Lindsay, Andy Anako and Micah Sargent. Nice to have you filling in for Jason Snell. We did a nice little keynote coverage. We did the whole. Well, the whole day. We did both, both keynotes. The platform, State of the Union as well yesterday and that is available for club members. Our Synopsis is available globally on the Twitch channel. But if you're not yet a club member, this is might be a good time to join because from now on, all of the keynotes, all of the coverage, you know, the commentary on keynotes will be in the club only. And that's just because Apple has tried to take us down both on YouTube and Twitch with letters from attorneys. You know, I mean, they've gotten pretty serious about it. So we don't wanna, we don't wanna to raise anybody's hackles. So we'll do it in the club for 10 bucks a month. You get a lot more than that, though. You get ad free versions of all the shows. You wouldn't even hear this plug. You also get access to the club Twit Discord, which is a social network of smart people like you, which makes it really pretty darn exciting. It's a great place, not just during the shows to chat, but all the time and all the topics that we as geeks care about. You also get the special events that we do in the club only, not just keynotes. Coming up on Friday, we're going to do our monthly photo time with Chris Marquardt. It's not too late to submit your your photo with the theme Geometric. I have one to submit Geometric to our Flickr group and Chris will be reviewing those on Friday along with all the camera news. Micah's does his crafting corner next week on Wednesday. I enjoyed that last time Micah. I popped in, I didn't have anything really I was working on, but I popped in and it's such a soothing time and a great time to be together with the other club members who are crafting stuff. Lego or are you gonna do Lego again this week?
- [50:40]
Andy Ihnatko
We'll still be doing Lego and then we'll probably move into calligraphy.
- [50:47]
Leo Laporte
Oh, fun.
- [50:48]
Andy Ihnatko
Yeah.
- [50:48]
Leo Laporte
Well, you'll like the new read pen on the iPad OS. You do iOS today. Live in the cloud. Of course. The AI user group was really incredible. Last week we talked Vibe coding. Lumareska says he wants to come back and do a demo, so that might be kind of fun. In fact, I'm thinking in the crafting corner I might, I. I started a Vibe coding project with React Native with our Twit API and it was able to connect to the API and download content. So I'm kind of halfway to an app. So that might be kind of fun to work on that while you're doing your crocheting or your knitting or Micah's Lego. This is why the Club is a great thing. It's a place for you to hang with people of like mind and have a nice, fun, informative time. Just like the podcasts. If you're not. And by the way, I didn't even mention this part. It makes a big difference to us and our bottom line. 25% of our operating costs now are covered by you club members. Thank you club members. Twit TV Club Twit I invite you to join. Starts at 10 bucks a month, $120 a year. You can pay more if you want, but you don't have to. To Twit TV Club this episode brought to you by Red Canary when cybersecurity threats hit fast, you need an MDR partner that moves faster. Red Canary delivers 24.7expert MDR support, total visibility and actionable insights. Plus it helps you detect four times more threats so you can stay ahead without burning out. Red Canary clears the noise and has your back every hour, every incident. Get the backup you deserve. Visit redcanary.com different to learn more.
- [52:25]
Micah Sargent
Hi Zoe Saldana.
- [52:26]
Leo Laporte
Welcome to T Mobile.
- [52:27]
Andy Ihnatko
Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us. Thanks.
- [52:30]
Micah Sargent
And here's my old phone to trade in.
- [52:31]
Andy Ihnatko
You don't need a trade in.
- [52:32]
Leo Laporte
When you switch to T Mobile, we'll.
- [52:34]
Andy Ihnatko
Give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your.
- [52:37]
Micah Sargent
Old Phone up to 800 bucks and.
- [52:39]
Andy Ihnatko
You still get to keep it.
- [52:40]
Micah Sargent
There's always a trade in. Not right now.
- [52:42]
Andy Ihnatko
@ T Mobile.
- [52:43]
Leo Laporte
I feel like I have to give.
- [52:44]
Micah Sargent
You something in return for karma.
- [52:45]
Andy Ihnatko
That's okay.
- [52:46]
Alex Lindsay
I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see.
- [52:49]
Micah Sargent
Hand sanitizer.
- [52:50]
Alex Lindsay
It's lavender.
- [52:51]
Leo Laporte
I'm good. Seriously.
- [52:52]
Micah Sargent
Let me check this pocket.
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Alex Lindsay
Oh, mints.
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Andy Ihnatko
Really, I'm fine.
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Micah Sargent
Oh, I have raisins.
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Andy Ihnatko
I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec.
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Alex Lindsay
I've got cupcakes in the car.
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Leo Laporte
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Alex Lindsay
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- [53:55]
Leo Laporte
Quit well, I'm going to ask myself Leo, what do you think the highlight of Tuesday of Monday's keynote was? I was really impressed. I thought Apple had it was going to have a very tough time after last year because of course they kind of screwed the pooch on AI over promising and under delivering something Apple rarely does. And I thought you know in fact it was on Jason's draft card that they might even apologize for last year. They of course did not do that but they did something subtly I think much better. They did. Craig Federically briefly mentioned yes we're putting in Siri but it's taking longer than we thought. I mean it was quick. If you blinked you'd missed it. But then they showed Apple intelligence beautifully elegantly woven throughout in very interesting ways. Your maps Apple kind of know where you're going ahead of time and recommend a route. It will even give you a notification on your CarPlay without you doing the nav saying hey, you know the path you usually take on this is blocked. You might want to try an alternate route. Things like that AI is everywhere in a way that is useful and positive. It's not you know. Yeah they kind they say they improved image playgrounds and gem emoji. Who cares. I think they've done things that make AI truly useful. Of course they have you know still and they will go out even more often to chat GPT for instance Image Playground now uses will use the chatgpt image generation which is a thousand times better. So you know they're giving you the AI you might want but I really like this is a feature quilt with all they showed that very quickly nobody could read it. Of all the little things that they have added into iOS I think that and not all of these are AI but I'm to me and I'm curious what you all thought they did AI right this time.
- [55:56]
Micah Sargent
This is, this is what last year should have looked like. Yes this is they could have just done. They didn't have to talk about Siri. They didn't have to talk about all the things. I think that there was a lot of panic that they had in that, in that moment. I think they did seem to learn a lesson from that. And I think that they're showing practical ways that we're using AI in small doses and giving us access to things like having our AI inside of Xcode or having, you know, embedding things, generating images with, you know, with, well, with, with ChatGPT or whatever. But these are all things I think that they did really well and I do think that they still hold long term. They hold some potential huge advantages of being able to do this on the device, being able to have it feel more private.
- [56:44]
Leo Laporte
Almost all of is on device, which really was interesting to me. Promising a lot that's hard to do on a little device and making it.
- [56:51]
Micah Sargent
Available to the developers so that the developers can sit there and without all those extra costs and everything else and without, you know, everybody.
- [56:58]
Leo Laporte
By the way, if I had to pick one thing that would really be important in this, it's the fact that developers can now add Apple intelligence models. We mentioned it earlier to their apps. Yeah, Huge.
- [57:09]
Micah Sargent
As just a huge, you know, just calling out to it rather than having to, you know, try to build their own.
- [57:14]
Leo Laporte
I expect to see AI now in so many more apps in so many ways. It'll be very, very, very interesting.
- [57:21]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah, and they've had. You're absolutely right. They've added so many meaningful little features like just simply the ability to like hold assistance. You're on hold and it will just basically be on hold for you and wait for an actual human being to like actually pick up the phone and alert you. Being able to, when you take a screenshot that it can actually surface actual information from out of the screenshot and action on it. Like if there's a calendar thing or you're on Instagram and there's an event, you can screenshot it because you want to keep it. But it will also. Hey, by the way, I see that there's. You want to schedule this as an actual event. That's really nice. These are all really, really simple things. They're not terribly complicated. A lot of this stuff has been on Pixels and on Android for a while, but that doesn't mean anything. It means that they're good ideas and Apple can just simply use artificial intelligence as a seasoning as opposed to the main protein of the dish. That's perfectly okay. And it's probably the right track for Apple to follow, given how much money and expertise they can put into artificial intelligence compared to OpenAI, compared to Microsoft compared to Google. It's fine.
- [58:27]
Leo Laporte
Nightscape says in our discord and I agree 100%. Apple's going back to the original game plan of releasing little betterments other than some big agent that they had had to have been planning for their last big announcement after putting all the other pieces in place. Lots of little things and even more, I think, in the apps that you use. I like this quote in their press release last. This is Craig Federighi. Last year we took the first steps in a journey, the first stumbling steps I'll add on a journey to bring users intelligence. And this is key that's helpful, relevant and easy to use and right where the users need it, all while protecting their privacy. I think if they can live up to that, helpful, relevant, easy to use right where you need it, and private, that's a win in AI. That's huge.
- [59:17]
Alex Lindsay
I'm sorry, go ahead, Mac.
- [59:19]
Andy Ihnatko
I just was gonna say I still, I didn't expect to be the person that's doing this, but I am just not convinced yet. When I look at the features that when I look at writing tools, when I look at Image Playground, when I look at the functionality that we've seen thus far where Apple intelligence has been added, not to mention, and I quite literally did an episode of Hands on Apple about this recently is voice dictation. And for the longest time voice dictation worked in this great way where you said things and it wrote it and you could have it automatically add periods and commas, or you could choose to add them by voice and it had tools like the ability to say digit and then 1756. And it knew that what you wanted was to have it type out 1756 instead of1756 written out. Right? Those little kind of shortcuts. And because they applied a new voice dictation model that makes use of this Apple Intelligence, as I was doing that episode trying to show these features off, I had to stop and redo the episode because a lot of Apple's own support that showed that these things were possible were no longer possible because the AI was trying to be smarter about the dictation that I was doing. Now it gets words wrong more often than it ever has before. It will be correct whenever it's first giving me the answer or it's kind of typing it out. And then at the end, because it's trying to be smarter about the context of the sentence, it changes it to the wrong word. And that's one small example of how Apple Intelligence being sprinkled on top has actually ruined. Ruined a thing. And so every time they talked about some cool new feature and they said, and it's made possible with Apple Intelligence, I have a lot of. I'm not saying that it's not going to be amazing.
- [61:08]
Leo Laporte
You're just skeptical.
- [61:09]
Andy Ihnatko
I'm skeptical and I'm worried that it's going to be, be harmed by that. And so when it comes to now developers being able to use these models in their, in their apps, I mean, it's clear that that image playgrounds, Apple has kind of said, okay, yeah, if we do it ourselves on device, the images you're getting aren't going to be that great. And so that's why we've added Chat GPT as an option where you can go to a server somewhere and have it create a model for you or create a photo for you, because that's going to look better and probably more of what you want. So I am skeptical now. I will say that I was a little convinced of the possibility of it being good for individual developers who decide to do a little added trick, because that is part of the API that's being made available to developers. If you give it contextual training that is specific to your app, then it's possible I could start to see where that would be helpful.
- [62:05]
Leo Laporte
That's, by the way, huge. I did not notice that. And that is exactly what you want, is to be able to tune it to the specific. So if you're a calendar, you tune it to calendar entries. That's really good.
- [62:17]
Andy Ihnatko
And one hopes that the developers will make use of that because without it, I'm skeptical. That's what I want to say.
- [62:22]
Leo Laporte
I think it's fair to be skeptical. Apple burned us last year, so it's reasonable. We have the proofs in the pudding, by the way, for everything we're talking about in 26. We'll see when it comes out in September. Yeah, yeah, I am going to jump on. Well, let me take a break and then come back. What I'm going to jump on. You're watching Mac Break Weekly. Andy, is the website almost there?
- [62:48]
Alex Lindsay
Almost.
- [62:49]
Leo Laporte
Almost there.
- [62:49]
Alex Lindsay
Okay. Very almost there.
- [62:50]
Leo Laporte
I will. I don't mean to harass you.
- [62:53]
Alex Lindsay
It was, it was either going to launch like a week or two before WDC or a week or two after wdc, after the, after the noise died down.
- [63:02]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, but.
- [63:02]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah, and unfortunately I didn't hit two weeks before, so it has to be a couple weeks after.
- [63:06]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, but that means there's more content on there.
- [63:09]
Andy Ihnatko
I'm enjoying it.
- [63:10]
Leo Laporte
Good.
- [63:10]
Andy Ihnatko
We're gonna have to edit that out.
- [63:12]
Leo Laporte
Good.
- [63:12]
Alex Lindsay
No, thank you. That's. You're not under NDA. You're only under NDA for complaints.
- [63:17]
Andy Ihnatko
Got it?
- [63:20]
Alex Lindsay
Wow. Does your keyboard have lowercase Andy like. No. I just get excited, that's all.
- [63:27]
Leo Laporte
Micah, Imagine you're a business owner relying.
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Micah Sargent
On a dozen different software programs, each.
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Micah Sargent
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Andy Ihnatko
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- [64:25]
Leo Laporte
Odoo Modern Management Made Simple Back quickly on the air. Let's get back to what I'm going to jump on. The public betas are next month in July. I notice you've already done the developer beta. Some of you have already done the developer. Micah, which developer betas did you install?
- [64:46]
Andy Ihnatko
So I installed Mac OS and I installed ipados on your production machines? No. Heavens no. Never? Not ever. Not once. So I have my MacBook Air. That is not a production machine. It used to be. And then we.
- [65:00]
Leo Laporte
Oh, that's a good point. I have my. Yeah, I could do it on the MacBook Air. Yeah.
- [65:04]
Andy Ihnatko
And so that's.
- [65:06]
Leo Laporte
Do they seem stable to you?
- [65:08]
Andy Ihnatko
I. I've been impressed. Thus far. The. The. There have been weird of all things like text alignment issues in a lot of the prompts, but outside of that I haven't had any crash on a Showstopper.
- [65:20]
Leo Laporte
That's fine.
- [65:20]
Andy Ihnatko
Exactly. Exactly. I honestly, one of the things I wanted to mention, I think it might have been Andy, somebody mentioned about the menu bar changing and I had mentioned that Leo, during our conversations yesterday about how I was a little worried I had almost forgotten about it because I hadn't even noticed that the menu bar on. On the Mac is invisible. It. It didn't affect me as I thought it was going.
- [65:44]
Leo Laporte
You know, they walked us into this with it with one that kind of copied the wallpaper color, Right?
- [65:49]
Andy Ihnatko
Yes, exactly.
- [65:50]
Leo Laporte
And now they're going the full.
- [65:54]
Andy Ihnatko
I also liked what they said. They were very clear. They said we plan that by the time the next version comes out this feature will be deprecated. If you asked me what feature that was, couldn't tell you because I forgot. But I like they are preparing developers ahead of time to say oh, I think it was for app icons. So you needed to hop on the new app icon design as quickly as possible. And of course we also learned that this is the last intel release of Tahoe of macOS. I mean Tahoe was the last intel release.
- [66:25]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. So get yourself an Apple Silicon Apple. I promise you you will be happier. It's amazingly better.
- [66:33]
Alex Lindsay
Start picking out a Linux for the old Mac. There's a good. There are a couple of good ones out there. You can still be a good Plex server because don't be a good nas.
- [66:41]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, you don't want to throw it away.
- [66:43]
Alex Lindsay
Just try not to make it run Mac os.
- [66:44]
Leo Laporte
I personally I'm not going to do the developer betas. You're too brave for me. But I am going to do the public beta on iPadOS in July. Yeah, I am so excited about what the new iPad OS means. This is for years I've bitched and moaned about the iPad being too good for the software you could run on it and all of a sudden it isn't. In fact and the other thing that this coincided with, I am starting to use my iPad Pro. I have the M4 version more I mentioned this yesterday to you Micah, because a Tapestry, which is a icon factory RSS reader that I use daily and Obsidian, which runs beautifully really looks nice on the iPad. I even have a terminal program on there that lets me log into my Linux box if I really need Emacs. And I'm using also Synology Drive which means I can access my Documents folder on the iPad as if it's running a full computer. But add to that this whole new way of thinking. By the way, it also has tiling along with windowing so it's got a really and you could they have a four up tile. I mean this is really great. It makes me want a larger screen, a 20 inch iPad, you know and.
- [68:10]
Alex Lindsay
Obviously I haven't tried it on my iPad yet because it's not compatible but I've been watching and reading people saying giving their first impressions after having connected it to an external display. Even that's even better when you have it connected to like an actual screen with more real estate and now you have a two display desktop that Just feels like a desktop machine. I mean, you really. For those of us who've been in on the iPad since the very, very beginning, it is amazing to see all the dogma, or excuse me, most of the bad dogma of the iPad start to drop away about saying, no, no, no, no, no, it's not a. It's an iPad. It's not a desktop. It's not. There's the Mac OS desktop operating system, there's the iPad mobile operating system. Then there's no need to have any interchange between concepts between the two of them. And little by little by little, as they've been making the iPad have more and more hardware oomph, people have been saying inside Apple like, well, why can't we move. Make it easier to move files on and off of it. Why can't we have. Why do we have. Why are we stuck to. With slide over and having two tiled windows in the middle? Why can't we have overlapping windows? And now just the simple idea of the biggest dogma of them all, where Apple always has that thing where they're over your shoulder watching you do something and say, oh my, no, no, don't put the window. Oh, it looks so ugly. Give me the mouse, give me the mouse, give me the mouse. And the previous version is like, okay, we will let you have Windows, but we won't let you put them wherever you want. Now the simple ability of you can have too many windows on the display overlapping a little on the edge. It will look like garbage. But we finally decided at Apple that you've given us $1,200 for this tablet. We will allow you to make your screen look like garbage if that's how you work.
- [70:00]
Leo Laporte
The club is telling you. Your M1 is supported, by the way, Andy.
- [70:04]
Alex Lindsay
So, yeah, okay, the document that I.
- [70:06]
Leo Laporte
Saw, here's the list of iPads pros that will support it. And that first generation iPad Pro is.
- [70:16]
Alex Lindsay
I guess I'm wrong. I was going from a list that I saw on 9 to 5 Mac this morning. Okay, so I just.
- [70:22]
Leo Laporte
We'll find out. I just.
- [70:26]
Alex Lindsay
I'm relieved to know.
- [70:27]
Leo Laporte
I feel like this is going to become my, My default Apple device. I can't even.
- [70:32]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah, Mike, I can't even. I'm so tortured. I'm sorry, I'll shut up. But I'm so tortured because this is such a revol. Such a big leap forward for what I can do with my iPad Pro. But I only have one iPad that can run this if anyone can run it. And I don't Want to screw it up?
- [70:50]
Leo Laporte
Here's the actual Apple graphic from Dustin. And you are definitely included.
- [70:56]
Alex Lindsay
I stand corrected. Thank you.
- [70:58]
Micah Sargent
Yay. Well, and I think that Apple looks at the Mac OS as kind of the old.
- [71:04]
Leo Laporte
The old thing.
- [71:05]
Micah Sargent
It's legacy that you get. And so the idea that the iPad and the Mac are. Are separate is mostly not to freak the Mac users out as the iPad keeps moving towards them, because I think that they're like, yeah, you keep on using the trucks.
- [71:21]
Leo Laporte
But there's one thing I will defend as of today, and maybe the EU will change this. You cannot install any arbitrary app on the iPad. It has to be in the App Store.
- [71:31]
Micah Sargent
Right.
- [71:33]
Leo Laporte
That is a fundamental difference between the Mac and the iPad.
- [71:37]
Micah Sargent
I mentioned, I think I mentioned last week we built an app that you could never ship, you know, into an iPad because it literally digs into motions, into Motion's package and insert something into it because we want to. And so the issue.
- [71:54]
Alex Lindsay
I don't know what they're.
- [71:55]
Micah Sargent
I don't know why they wouldn't let us do that. But yeah, so I was mentioning it last week, like CJ CJ Cobel and I were working on this thing where we were. We want to replace the Reflections. This is. But this is a good example of why you want to be able to put your own app in. We want to replace the Reflections in Motion because there's no way to do that. But the only way to do that is to find the reflection inside of the package, inside the Motion package, little folders, and they have the reflection. You can't change the names because it's somewhere hard coded, but you can just replace the wood reflection or whatever with whatever reflection. And we figured out how to name it all and how to convert an HDRI to the formats that it needed to be in. But the last step is that it just opens it up so you can drop it in. And yeah, you can't ship that. So there is a. So there is that limit. And I think that there's also, you know, but I do think that Apple, it looks at it and I have a touchscreen here that, that I have connected to a Mac. It would be a lot of work to make that really workable. Like, I try to use it as a touchscreen.
- [72:56]
Leo Laporte
I think it's fine for them to have two tracks. They got two tracks.
- [72:59]
Micah Sargent
But what I would say is they have two tracks and one is they're still developing it. I mean, the macOS still got a whole new update. And it does, you know, all these new Things, But I think that this was the first line. They were going like this and then suddenly the iPad went, hey, how's it going? Yeah, like this kind of moved over and like, like it's really close now.
- [73:17]
Leo Laporte
Well, if I had a choice, I'd rather the iPad look more like the Mac than the Mac look more like the iPad.
- [73:21]
Micah Sargent
I agree, I agree. And I think that's where it's going. Is that it? But I think that the other thing is, I do think that Apple is, it's, it is a design process of what do we actually need from the Mac os? And they're not just saying we're going to make it look like the Mac os. They're going, you know, after they, okay, we tried split screen, but that's not enough. Okay, so we're going to do Windows the next year, and the next year they'll do a little bit more. But they're making every new feature earn its position inside the iPad rather than automatically just taking what was there in the past. And I think that that's an interesting, you know, development.
- [73:56]
Leo Laporte
I think they pick the best parts of the Mac to put in there. A menu bar, the updated files, the app. They've got expos.
- [74:02]
Micah Sargent
But I think everything is, everything is earning its position in the operating system as they add the Mac. Like things. Yeah, it's always the best of the things that we really need without folders.
- [74:13]
Leo Laporte
In the docks now, although I hate those springy bendy folder views that they have. I want a list view. I don't know if they'll have a list view, but they have made this iPad. As far as I'm concerned, I'll still have a Mac because I do need to run Emacs. I want to be able to run homebrew. I want to be able to have a terminal, you know, the kinds of things a real computer can do.
- [74:35]
Micah Sargent
But I guess here's the thing is I think we're of a generation that wants that. I think that they're looking at the next generation. When I look at people, how people use this, when this is a massive generalization, I know I'm going to get a bunch of people are going to ping me about this.
- [74:48]
Leo Laporte
Well, because the people who are listening are the geeks who use those tools.
- [74:52]
Micah Sargent
But when you go to the airport, I spend a lot of time. I have spent a lot of time in airports. Well over 60 and below 20 is all iOS and iPads, you know, like it's, you know, and then, and then, and then there's a Bunch of us that are between 20 and 60 that are all, you know, we grew up in the computer age.
- [75:10]
Leo Laporte
I don't think that it. No, I don't think we're aging out. I think that there will always be a group of people who want to do more with their systems, period.
- [75:17]
Micah Sargent
Because we grew up doing more. I mean.
- [75:19]
Leo Laporte
No, because they're coders, because they want to run AI locally. There's a lot of reasons you would want a real computer. Those aren't going to, to go away.
- [75:27]
Micah Sargent
No, they're not going to go away. But I'm just going to say that percentage of the market is like 10% of the market, you know, like it is.
- [75:33]
Leo Laporte
I'd agree. The vast majority, best 10%.
- [75:36]
Micah Sargent
When I look at my, like, but when I look at like an average 10%, but when I look at like my mom's PC, my mom will not switch over. There's so many viruses and all this weird stuff going on and everything else. I'm like, you should not have, like, she should just have an iPad.
- [75:50]
Leo Laporte
She shouldn't have Windows, period. No one should have Windows. But I think that I do hope that I don't have to move to Linux to get a real computing experience. I do hope Apple will continue to support a real computing experience along with this. I agree. Modern, it's aesthetically much prettier. It's beautiful. The screens are better on the iPads than they are on the Macs. I mean, I guess you could get a.
- [76:13]
Alex Lindsay
My best quality display in the entire office is my iPad.
- [76:16]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [76:17]
Micah Sargent
When I want to go check color, I go, well, I'm going to turn the brightness all the way up. Make sure that all the, you know, coloration stuff, the nighttime stuff is off. And I look at. If I don't have a. If I'm not somewhere where I have a calibrated monitor, what I look at is the iPad. What does the color look like?
- [76:31]
Leo Laporte
But there will always be people who want a command line. There will always be people who want to get under the hood. It's going to be a smaller and smaller percentage. But you know what? Thank goodness for them because those are the ones creating the programs you're using. Right?
- [76:43]
Alex Lindsay
Right. And particularly as like more and more of the world is turning towards words. Look, if you can run a Chrome compliant or Safari compliant browser on whatever this is, you're good for 75 to 80% of what you want to do. That really is the world that we're going to. But I do think that there's always. That's never going to be. The thing is, it's the fact that it might be close to 80%. Of course we're just pulling a number out of the air, but it seems like an okay guess to make. The thing is that that 20% of what you can't do is going to be different for so many people and what's completely going to be valuable is that's the reason why if the iPad could do these three additional things and it's going to be different three things for everybody. I could spend all of this money on a top of the line 1 TB iPad with 5G instead of buying a MacBook Air instead. But unfortunately those three things are incredibly important. Up until IPADOS 26. The fact that I couldn't plug in an external microphone and use an external microphone and external camera was the reason why my I'm in New York for just 36 hours but I have to bring my MacBook because it's the only thing that I can do this livestream from. Because these limitations, these things get. We respond the technology we use, the software we use and the culture we use is a reflection of our society. And the evolution of the iPad and the evolution of web based tools is also a reflection of the society that we live in as we're trying to use things that are are not necessarily even aesthetic, they're just simply functional lowest requirement level of hardware in order to get this done. Because all we want to do is just do these simple basic things. But the one thing that worries me, and that's a lowercase w worry is that I did like the iPad's tiled windows. I did like slide over because on an iPad with a smaller screen like a regular iPad or an iPad made it was a very clever way to get multitasking multi apps on one screen without having to constantly move things around and adjust things to make things actually work on that small screen. I wonder if I'm not going to miss a simple way to simply say look, thank you for giving me multiple windows, but I really just want a window on this side, a window on that side. From what I've seen and read you can do that. Now basically it uses a snap windows where you just simply drag it to a certain place and it will occupy by half the screen. Let's see if it works quite so well. Overall, I hope that Apple does not miss an opportunity to maintain the iPad as a unique thing. It is not macOS, it is not Windows, it is not Linux. It is designed to work on a variety of Size tablets from something the size of a trade paperback to something with 12.9 inch screen just like a laptop and function very, very well as a productivity device, no matter what size you got. I just hope that it's not like running a remote access where I've just. Oh, well, I've got a desktop operating system squeezed into this tiny window and it's not comfortable and I don't like it.
- [79:52]
Leo Laporte
So. Oh, by the way, somebody in the discord has installed the beta on his M1, a MacBook Pro, and it works fine. So good news, Andy.
- [80:04]
Micah Sargent
Or iPad Pro.
- [80:05]
Leo Laporte
Is that what I said?
- [80:06]
Alex Lindsay
Mac iPad?
- [80:07]
Leo Laporte
No, let's talk about Mac OS, because Mac OS did not get left behind. It's of course going to get this all new design. It didn't get round icons, thank God. Yeah, that was Bloom. Mike, Mike. Mark Gurman at Bloomberg backed down last week. He had said months ago, oh, round icons everywhere. He changed his tune so he'd be right either way. But he changed his tune and I'm glad he did because this is how I got to look. It feel like they're more rounded than they were.
- [80:37]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah, I think they did.
- [80:38]
Andy Ihnatko
They did point that out in macOS is more rounder than it was before. The edges of every window are now matched to the rest of the system, and so the icons also match that as well. And there were six words that Apple used in talking about its design. Language, hierarchy, harmony, consistency, layering, depth and vitality. And that consistency and the harmony are both what you see. It's as if the designers at Apple are whispering that as you look at different parts of macOS and ipados, et cetera, they really are trying to make them all feel very similar. Anthony pointed out something very clear and smart, I think, because we heard that Vision OS was the inspiration to bring all of these platforms forward and visually. But you still need a way to differentiate between on a Vision Pro, differentiate between what is a Vision OS native app versus something else that you're getting from a third from one of the other platforms and sort of launching on the device. And so the difference between the circle versus the squircle that might be a little bit more squircle y than before is kind of how you visually see the difference there. And of course, WatchOS still has those round items, icons. It's entirely possible that at one point they thought, let's go for those completely circular icons. And then someone said, no, because we do need a difference between Vision OS and the rest of the platforms.
- [82:10]
Micah Sargent
I do think that regardless of what we think about the Vision os, it is driving, to Micah's point, it is driving a lot of the interface design because Apple still sees that as the future computing device. And getting us all used to these icons and all of these semi transparent icons and the glass icons and everything else else is laying a very long path towards the assumption that you're going to be doing more with computing on some version of glasses two, three years from now that are much smaller than the Vision Pro, that all of this interface just simply rolls right into that ar set of glasses without being seamlessly, which is pretty interesting if it actually happens.
- [82:50]
Leo Laporte
As long as we're mentioning the round rect, this is probably the right time to mention the passing of Bill Atkinson, who was a legend, one of the original Macintosh team members, 51st employee at Apple. He was the genius, an utter genius, who created Quick Draw and Mac Paint HyperCard, of course, which really predated the Worldwide Reb and introduced us all to hyperlinking. Atkinson created round rects as well. And there's a great story, a lot of stories about Bill and the original Macintosh team. At Andy Herzfeld's folklore.org website, which if you haven't read, you must read. He talks about how round wrecks happened. They wanted to draw circles, but it's very hard to draw circles on the Motorola 68,000 because it doesn't have floating point and you need PI r squared, right? You need squares and square roots to do circles. So Bill went home and figured because he used the fact that the sum of a sequence of odd numbers is always the next perfect square, oddly. So he figured out how he could do this in integer mass and he brought it into Apple. Bill programmed at home. This is the story Bill told us, by the way. I did many hours of interviews with Bill on Twitter. He told us this story. He fired up his demo, quickly filled the Lisa screen cause it was the predecessor to Quick Draw. Lisa Grant with randomly sized ovals faster than you thought possible. But something was bothering Steve Jobs and he's writing this. Well, circles and ovals are good, but how about drawing rectangles with rounded corners? Can we do that now? To which Bill replied, no, there's no way to do that. In fact, it would be really hard to do and I don't think we really need it. I think Bill was a little miffed, says Andy, that Steve wasn't raving over the fast ovals and still wanted more. Steve got more intense. Rectangles with rounded corners are everywhere. Just look around this room. And sure enough, There were lots of them. The whiteboard, some of the desks, the tables. Then he pointed out the window. Look outside. There's even more practically everywhere you look. He even persuaded Atkinson to take a quick walk around the block with him, pointing out every rectangle with rounded corners he could find. When Steve and Bill passed a no parking sign with rounded corners. Okay, Bill said, I give up. I'll see if it's hard. As he thought, he went back home. Returned the next afternoon with a big smile on his face. His demo was now drawing rectangles with beautifully rounded corners. Blisteringly fast, almost at the speed of plain rectangles. When he added the code to Lisa Graph, he named the new primitive round rects. Over the next few months, round rects worked their way into various parts of the user interface and soon became indispensable. In fact, they are now all the buttons are round.
- [85:44]
Alex Lindsay
Rex. They were. They used to be squares.
- [85:45]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, they're all round. Yeah. And you know what? If it were square, I don't think it would be quite as beautiful as it is. We can. We owe Bill Atkinson for the beauty.
- [85:54]
Andy Ihnatko
Goosebumps.
- [85:55]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah.
- [85:56]
Leo Laporte
Code is online, by the way. The Computer History Museum, along with his Mac paint source code. If you want to read. The work of a brilliant programmer. Bill Atkinson was incredible and I was very privileged to spend a lot of time with him. We, we did a bunch of interviews. They're all on the Twit website. He was on four different triangulations. One of them was a five hour interview that I did and we split it up into two different. I, I have the great honor of having some of. He became a photographer later in life. He did beautiful thin sections of minerals and rocks and I have two of his incredible photographs. Very sad to lose.
- [86:39]
Alex Lindsay
He was a genius programmer at the time. When you didn't have cloud compute, you did not have gigabytes and gigabytes of ram. You had a tiny, tiny amount of system resources. All your code had to be on a ROM chip that had a very, very finite amount of space on it. So every line of code was critical. What the original Mac 128 could do or could not do was limited by the size of that tiny, tiny, tiny ROM chip. So every line had to very, very carefully considered. And one of the other seminal stories about him was during the LISA development where the management team was trying to generate metrics on how fast the project was progressing. And so all the programmers had to file reports on how many lines of code you wrote over the recent periods. And he said, well, that's ridiculous. You should be scoring me on how many lines I didn't write. And so in one burst of this is also on Andy Herzfeld's site, the Story. And in one sequence of programming, he managed to cut 2,000 lines of code by finding a more efficient manner of doing something. And so he files a report. How many lines of code did you write? Negative 2000. That's why he is like an absolute superstar. I mean, not to denigrate developers who do wonderful things today, but it's like, when's the last time you thought this, this code is 9,000 lines long or 40,000 lines long? It will not run. I have to delete, I have to find a way to cut 12,000 lines of code from this. Like, no, it just, I mean, there are problems or limitations, but it's not necessarily efficiency and speed is more important than simply saying, let's figure out a way to make this small smaller and make this more compact. And he is, he, he, he was that sort of logical Tetris developer where he could just figure out a way, oh, look, I managed to collapse four, five lines down into one. It's no longer a tower.
- [88:39]
Micah Sargent
And I, and I have to say, you know, I, I, without, when HyperCard came out, I was just, you know, the idea, I, I, I built some very complex things in HyperCard. I don't know people who are really good at HyperCard. Maybe not that it wasn't that big of a deal, but I programmed a whole radio station with it. So I, I, I set it all up where I could have all the, all the songs that were in a rotation, like literally everything. And I had to go through and put it all in by hand. But, but then I built it all so it had all the, all the mechanisms so that it would just tell the DJ what to play next and what the announcements were and what the ads were, because I didn't want to pay $6,000 for the, the Pro, the a PC version of something that would look really schlocky, you know, and so, and so, but it ran the radio station. I, I just programmed the whole radio station with hypergard, and I just told the program director I could do it. Before I could do it, I was like, oh, that'll be easy. And it was like three weeks later of not sleeping. I had it all working, but that's the kind of thing that we were able to do at that point. And I built this mailing list system with HyperCard where I could, I had like 3500. Not emails, mailing addresses of people who wanted to go to events in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And I could send them postcards, but I could identify them by their. All stuff that we do now. I could identify them by their zip code, and I could cross check the zip code against the. Against their, you know, gender or what. What things. What, what they came to. All those things were things I was building in HyperCard. And it just was so empowering, you know, just such. Such a powerful thing. And I still feel like I don't. It'd be hard. It's hard to do what I did in HyperCard with anything today. It's. It was really visionary.
- [90:16]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah.
- [90:16]
Leo Laporte
In his later years, in fact, he created a. A really great postcard app called PhotoCard, which I used. In fact, we used it for our twit Christmas cards one year. Really loved photocard. Bill, when we were talking to him, was caring for his wife sue, who passed after a long illness. And he cared for her very deeply. And he told me later that he went and did an Ayahuasca ceremony and talked to her after her passing, and she said it's okay to remarry Mary. And he did. He found love, a second love, in Kai. And there's a picture of him and Kai on. On his Facebook page with a van that says embrace life, which Bill Atkinson absolutely did. His. The. And by the way, there's one of his beautiful images. Oh, actually, no, that's Kai's son. Oh, that's beautiful. Or no, those are his. Okay, so Kai created a. Kai's son created a website with Bill's art on it, so you can go there if you follow him on Facebook. This was the announcement, the sad announcement that we all saw that Bill had passed on the night of Thursday, June 5, due to pancreatic cancer. Sadly, the same thing that killed, of course, Steve Jobs and Bill's mentor, Jeff Raskin, who first conceived of the idea. Idea of a Macintosh, both passed of pancreatic cancer. He was at home in Portola Valley surrounded by family. A remarkable person in the world would be forever different because he lived in. And I couldn't agree more. Very sad.
- [91:54]
Alex Lindsay
Can I add something regarding Jeff Raskin? Bill Atkinson used to tell that story about round rectangles a lot. He told it at a reunion panel of the original Macintosh team at a Mac hack conference. I think it was an anniversary, so it must have been in like 1994, 1999 or something. And so he tells the story and gets. And it's again, wonderful story. Wish if you had the opportunity to hear him speak on YouTube or your interviews or whatever, it's wonderful. And then, like, there's warm applause. Warm applause. Oh, gosh, that's so Steve, isn't it? And then Jeff adds, yeah. What you don't know, Bill, is that I'm the one who convinced Steve the day before. I'm the one who gave him the same talk, pointing out all the rounded rectangles in the world, world. And it was I. To this day, I wish. Oh, I wish I'd ask him afterward, were you serious about that or were you just saying, that's a good. That would be a good Steve Job capper to a Steve Job.
- [92:50]
Leo Laporte
That would be funny, wouldn't it? I love it. Bill was diagnosed in November of 2024 with pancreatic cancer. So he. It was a fairly long illness and it was very sad to lose him. I would. I was rocked by it, to be honest with you. Not not only because of who he was and because he's only six years older than me, but because he represents, along with Jeff Raskin and Steve Jobs, a generation that changed the world for all of us 100% as Apple users. And we've lost another one.
- [93:23]
Alex Lindsay
And these people, they inspired so many people. Of all the ways that the Mac changed the world, one of them was the decision that, you know what? We're not just just going to promote this as a company as though this computer just simply sprawled out of some sort of machine. We are going to highlight all the people who worked so hard to make this happen. You're going to know their faces, you're going to know their names. And a generation of kids in high school were like, you hear about rock star programmers. That term did not exist in the 1980s, but it was the same sort of thing where you see Bill Atkinson jamming on his instrument and thinking, that is so cool. One day I want to play that instrument as well as he does. And it affected so many lives, including mine.
- [94:12]
Leo Laporte
Such a good point. Such a good point. We'll miss you, Bill. Thank you. As I said in my blog post, thanks for all the round wrecks. Let's take a break. We are going to do our picks of the week up next. You're watching Mac Bridge Break Weekly with Andy Inaco, Alex Lindsay, and of course, filling in for Jason Snell, the wonderful Micah Sargent, who's too young to have remembered Bill Atkinson, but was definitely interesting.
- [94:39]
Andy Ihnatko
But I enjoyed the opportunity to learn a little bit more about Bill.
- [94:44]
Leo Laporte
Were you around when we. Because we interviewed him. First in the brick house, but then later in the east side studio. You weren't around for those.
- [94:50]
Andy Ihnatko
I wasn't yet around, sadly. I would have been really cool to be meet him in person. Oh, we have one of his photos. It's this gorgeous blue and red photo that he took.
- [95:02]
Leo Laporte
Stunning, isn't it? I know which one you're talking.
- [95:04]
Andy Ihnatko
Fire and ice.
- [95:05]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah. I ordered some postcards using his app and part of the thrill was, wow, this postcard was once inside Bill Atkinson's house. And maybe he was the person who actually like, took it out of the machine and dropped it off in a. In a hopper to the. To his local post office.
- [95:19]
Leo Laporte
We used it twice to send Christmas cards. And the first year he said, I corrected a few addresses for you because he literally, he looked through every order and photo corrected it. He had a whole process. He was very much part of the process. And then the second year, I got another email for him. He said I had to fix the addresses again. Could you just please fix those next time so I don't have to do it? But he did it, which was amazing. He fixed the addresses. That's how much he paid attention. He eventually did retire photography solely because he said, I just, I don't have the energy to go through all of the photos and fix them. So you were getting Bill Atkinson's photo editing on every single one.
- [96:01]
Alex Lindsay
And I know we need to get to pics, but just make sure you make sure if you're interested in Bill Atkinson to learn about general magic. Because that device, it's the classic idea. This is a genius object that is way before its time. But you could tell it had the personality, the sense of humor, the perspective, the point of view of somebody who looks. Not looks at now, looks at the future and exists in both places at the exact same time and does it as a art, as an act. Programming as and product development as an act of creativity.
- [96:36]
Leo Laporte
What an inspiration.
- [96:37]
Alex Lindsay
Brilliant stuff.
- [96:38]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. Andy was. Is like that too. Andy Herzfeld is like that.
- [96:42]
Alex Lindsay
And they've teamed up on that product.
- [96:43]
Leo Laporte
Amazing, amazing, amazing person. The Mac is the product of the best minds of a generation, I think.
- [96:52]
Micah Sargent
And I think that the interaction that he tells in that story, really the best products come out of someone who is going to keep on pushing for an idea even when it's unreasonable.
- [97:03]
Leo Laporte
A lot of credit, Steve.
- [97:04]
Micah Sargent
Yeah. But then also they're surrounded by tenacious engineers who, who once you put that in their. In their head, they can't get it out. And they have to. They have to find the solution. And it's the. It's the mix of them because it's. You know, if you don't have both of those together, you don't end up with innovation. You don't. You end up with, you know, someone's not pushing people. Well, they do what. What a lot of people will do, what makes sense and what's relatively easy to do. And, you know, but. But if you have that pushing, if you're pushing and the engineers aren't there, then it's.
- [97:33]
Andy Ihnatko
It's.
- [97:33]
Micah Sargent
It's soul sucking.
- [97:35]
Leo Laporte
No one wants to do what they're doing.
- [97:36]
Alex Lindsay
It must have been so much fun, because it wasn't just in the later days, like in the. In the. After the. After the second time, that Apple was doomed. A lot of times, engineers at Apple, it was like your team versus Steve. But during the Mac development days, when he was shuttled to a vice president position and not really kind of be like, beloved hippie founder emeritus position. And when it was you and Steve against upper management, like, oh, I'm going to destroy your $10,000 business computer by making one that's better and one third the price. Like, you thought that you put me off on a. In a. In a building, like, on the. Off on the side of campus, because you would be getting rid of me. No, no, no, no, no. You were allowing me to build my own fortress, from which we will raise our pirate frag flag, literally, and fire upon the battlements of the executive suites at Apple.
- [98:29]
Leo Laporte
I don't think this book's still in print, but this is basically what folklore.org became, which is there's a book called Revolution in the Valley by Andy Hertzfeld. And of course, that's Bill Atkinson with the shaggy mustache holding the first Macintosh. And Andy's right behind him. This is a. This is an incredible book. I don't. I think I got it used, but it's got. It's got stuff. Memorabilia, ephemera. Incredible.
- [98:59]
Andy Ihnatko
Okay. That's awesome, Leo. Oh, my God.
- [99:02]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. This is a treasured artifact of an amazing time. Wow.
- [99:09]
Andy Ihnatko
That gives me goosebumps looking at that.
- [99:10]
Leo Laporte
I know. Well, next time you're up, you can borrow it.
- [99:14]
Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, please. I want to look at it.
- [99:15]
Leo Laporte
I think it's out of print. I think I got it on ebay or somewhere. But I think all of the stories are on folklore.org most of them, anyway. All the good ones are. So thank you for that. That was a lovely tribute. We're going to come back and get your picks of the week as we Continue with Mac Break Weekly.
- [99:34]
Andy Ihnatko
Hi, Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us. Thanks.
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Micah Sargent
And here's my old phone to trade in.
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Andy Ihnatko
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Leo Laporte
When you switch to T Mobile, we'll.
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Andy Ihnatko
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Micah Sargent
There's always a trade in. Not right now.
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Andy Ihnatko
At T Mobile. I feel like I have to give.
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Micah Sargent
You something in return for karma.
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Andy Ihnatko
That's a.
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Leo Laporte
Okay.
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Alex Lindsay
I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see.
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Micah Sargent
Hand sanitizer.
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Alex Lindsay
It's lavender.
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Andy Ihnatko
I'm good.
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Leo Laporte
Seriously.
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Micah Sargent
Let me check this pocket.
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Alex Lindsay
Oh, mints.
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Andy Ihnatko
Really, I'm fine.
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Micah Sargent
Oh, I have raisins.
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Andy Ihnatko
I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec.
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Alex Lindsay
I've got cupcakes in the car.
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Leo Laporte
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Leo Laporte
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Andy Ihnatko
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Leo Laporte
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Andy Ihnatko
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- [100:33]
Leo Laporte
See t mobile.com picks of the week time. Micah, you. You are special guests today. What do you have for us?
- [100:44]
Andy Ihnatko
So I want to talk about an app. It's a game in Apple Arcade. This game actually existed for a long time in the App Store. It's called Hidden folks.
- [100:53]
Leo Laporte
Now, I'm going to give you credit because you showed us that silly little game where you drag the thing around and it just got a yes and it just got an Apple design award. So I'm listening to whatever you recommend. Go ahead.
- [101:07]
Andy Ihnatko
So hidden Folks was in the App Store and something cool that Apple will occasionally do is reach out to developers of apps that they like, of games that they like. Say, hey, would you like to join Apple Arcade? And then the money works its way out in that way. And I played Hidden Folks a long time ago, but the problem with it was at the time it was just a little expensive. And so now that it's an Apple Arcade, I can get it as part of my Apple Arcade subscription. But it's. It's basically a where's Waldo, San Diego, where's Waldo situation. But the cool thing is that the each of the stages are animated and occasionally what'll happen, you tap at the bottom to see the different items that you're trying to find. Usually it's people and they have a story. But you'll notice if you're watching the screen, the person is clicking on the bamboo. So you actually have to interact with the stage to move things out of the way sometimes to find people. Just the other day there was a chicken that had escaped from its pin. And so I go to the chicken pin and I see all of the. Or, excuse me, pen. And I see all of the chickens in there. And I know that the chicken that I'm looking for is somewhere nearby. And I was tapping on all of the bushes and finally one of the bushes leaves spread apart and there behind the bush is the chicken. So it's really quite delightful.
- [102:29]
Leo Laporte
This looks fun. Yeah, it is.
- [102:31]
Andy Ihnatko
It's a lot of fun to play and it's just one of those things that what I do, I'll listen to an audiobook and I'll tap around on the screen with this and it's just. Just a lot of fun. So now that it's an Apple Arcade, if you have Apple Arcade paid, absolutely recommend getting this because you don't have to pay any extra to get to all of the different stages. And some of the stages also are just. They're not search and find, but instead a person will be walking along and you kind of have to tap in different places to get the. The bridge to come down so it can make it to this next part and then move the. The snake out of the way or whatever it happens to be. So I feel like this is.
- [103:05]
Leo Laporte
You're going to do a lot of clicking on the screen.
- [103:08]
Andy Ihnatko
You will do a lot of tapping or clicking for this game.
- [103:12]
Leo Laporte
That's.
- [103:12]
Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, that's kind of the whole point of it. But it's a lot of fun. So that's my pick.
- [103:15]
Leo Laporte
Very nice, Mr. Andy and Ako, your pick of the week.
- [103:20]
Alex Lindsay
Mine is a game. I'm the. My gaming is 100% casual. I'm not the person who spends four weeks in Red Dead Redemption or GTA or something like that. I'm the person who dives into a game for 10, 15, 20 minutes when I just need a little bit of relaxation. Something I can just like zone out with. And a developer by the name of Kyle Sylvestra has adapted a Windows X. A game that came originally was famous because it was part of a Windows XP like gaming pack. It's Astro Pinball.
- [104:00]
Leo Laporte
Windows. It's available now on the Mac, somebody.
- [104:03]
Alex Lindsay
Well, see, somebody decompiled it like a, like a few months ago, made the assets available. So he has recompiled it as like an iOS game. And it's. It is just.
- [104:13]
Leo Laporte
It's very realistic.
- [104:14]
Alex Lindsay
Yeah, it is. The physics are perfect. And like, I can't.
- [104:18]
Leo Laporte
I love this on Windows. I used to play it on Windows. Oh, I'm so glad it's out.
- [104:23]
Alex Lindsay
And. And it's just wonderful. It's exactly the sort of game I like where it's just again, my, My. My. My bus or my train is like a little bit late, so I can just play pinball for like 10 or 15 minutes. Like all pinball games. Like, like real pinball. It's. The table never changes. It's just so mesmerizing. To get the flippers to time perfectly. Shoot it through the ramps perfectly. The noise is mesmerizing. And the great thing about this is that it has the same advantage of an app. Like, on the game store. Excuse me, on the. On Apple Arcade, it is free. There are no ads. No, no, no. No tracking, no nothing. It's like six. It's like a tiny, tiny, tiny file. Make sure that you look for the one by Kyle Silvestra, Astro Pinball. Because this game package was decompiled and put up for free to the developer, the GitHub community a while ago. I think there are a couple of them on the Google Play Store and elsewhere where it is pay to play or it does have ad tracking or whatever. But Kyle Sylvester has been recompiling and building this for every platform he can find. Works on the iPad, works on the iPhone. IPhone. If you got a keyboard, the keyboard will, like, work with as flipper buttons. It works with Game center so that you can have your high scores. You can cheat and bump the side of the machine. As I said, as a free game, it'll give you like 12 to 18 minutes of much entertainment twice a month for the next 12 years.
- [105:50]
Leo Laporte
I just installed it. I think it's the real deal, ladies and gentlemen.
- [105:55]
Alex Lindsay
It's just perfect. Like, and I can't believe that this is such an old game because the physics are perfect. There's something. What I love about it is that they didn't try. Oh, what if we do fancy camera moves where, like, a virtual camera tracks the ball? Like, no, let me be standing over this table. Like, I'm at the Canopy Bowling center, like, one town over from my house that had an arcade attached to it.
- [106:18]
Leo Laporte
So great.
- [106:19]
Alex Lindsay
This is. This is, by the way, like, Alex this is. This is the only reason why, like, I'm ever really tempted to. To get, like, a VR headset, because they actually sell, like, for Quest and for other platforms, like a controller that is just simply, like, the front end of a pinball machine, like, with the flipper buttons on the side. And you have a pinball app, like in VR. So when you look down, you are seeing, like, the virtual pinball machine, like, in front of you, but in the real world, you're actually feeling the sides of this machine. You're pulling the plunger, like, for real. And I'm like, I tried that a couple of times. And I'm like, okay, I understand why you spent $800 for this headset. I understand why you spent $400 for this controller, because this is perfect.
- [107:00]
Micah Sargent
Andy, the next time you're out here, we're going to the Pacific Pinball Museum, which is in Alameda. It has, from the very first ones all the way to the most modern ones. It's just room after room after room of pinball.
- [107:13]
Alex Lindsay
I kind of only need Adam's family. That'll give me for, like, first 18 hours. And then if there's time. Time left, we'll check the other ones.
- [107:20]
Micah Sargent
You think that until you start playing them. I found that there's a. My sweet spot is the late 70s, so the.
- [107:26]
Andy Ihnatko
Oh, that's kind of fun to know. Your era.
- [107:28]
Micah Sargent
My era that I enjoy. Now, I admit that my dad had a client that couldn't pay him, so he paid him with a pinball machine. And so he. And so there was a paragon.
- [107:37]
Leo Laporte
I need more clients.
- [107:38]
Alex Lindsay
Like that machine stuffed with drug money.
- [107:41]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, he's like. So he paid him with pims. We had a paragon in the base basement. It's still there. I mean, we still gotta play it. But the. But it. So I grew up with that, and it's late 70s. It's completely inappropriate when I. As a father, when you go down, you're like, oh, I don't know if those graphics were really the right thing. But. But the. But I found that my. What I like is a certain level of complexity, but not so much complexity. And. But I found that because I played. You know, my daughter and I went and we played for years. Know, three or four hours, just moving through the decades of stuff. It's really cool.
- [108:15]
Andy Ihnatko
Instead of asking, what's your sign? Astrology? What's your. Yeah.
- [108:19]
Micah Sargent
What's your pinball era? You learn a lot.
- [108:23]
Alex Lindsay
I. I still. I just want to hear our old Julia yell, extra ball.
- [108:27]
Leo Laporte
That's it thing.
- [108:28]
Alex Lindsay
Let the hand.
- [108:32]
Leo Laporte
Alex, Lindsay, your pick of the week.
- [108:34]
Micah Sargent
So the camera on your phone, the front facing one to you. Not a very good camera. And so. But we take all these selfies like this with our.
- [108:44]
Leo Laporte
With that camera.
- [108:45]
Micah Sargent
See what's going on. Yeah. What smallrig has released is this little monitor here. Now you may be wondering what is this monitor showing? It's showing my phone. So this is a. It's airplane.
- [108:59]
Andy Ihnatko
Anthony just bought it. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
- [109:01]
Micah Sargent
I'm sure it's airplane to the monitor.
- [109:05]
Leo Laporte
What?
- [109:07]
Andy Ihnatko
It's an airplane display.
- [109:08]
Micah Sargent
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [109:09]
Alex Lindsay
No, no, no, no.
- [109:10]
Leo Laporte
Wait, wait.
- [109:11]
Micah Sargent
Watch this. I got a little magic for you here.
- [109:13]
Leo Laporte
It glues on.
- [109:14]
Andy Ihnatko
Oh, it's mag safe.
- [109:17]
Micah Sargent
MagSafe. So now you can. Now I can. Yeah. This was. We were talking about an office hours and literally while people were talking about it, I was like ordered. Now I ordered another one. I ordered the first one. Here's. Here's the worst part. In office hours, someone brings up snap. It's called snap. Simply don't buy that one. It's from China. You can buy it quicker on Amazon.
- [109:38]
Leo Laporte
Get it from the good people. Small rig.
- [109:39]
Micah Sargent
Well, the thing is good, this, the small rig one's a little thicker. It also has a quarter 20 on the bottom. So you can just attach it to something as well. And so, so anyway, so this is. So now you can go like this and you can. And especially, you know, 64 or something.
- [109:56]
Leo Laporte
I'm blown away how cheap it is.
- [109:58]
Micah Sargent
And it. And it. And it's a great little monitor. A little bit of lag, but if you're doing a selfie, it doesn't matter and. And it's just if you want 48 megapixel, if you want to use the 0.5 kids, my daughter can do the 0.5 by herself without a monitor, but I can't because you have to get the head right in the center unless you want it to stretch. Anyway, it will mirror it over. Now what I'm using it for is that I want to be able to do interviews in the field with zoom where the person interviewing is on the monitor. And so I want to be able to walk it up and be able to do that. And so I got it for that. But for a selfie or for anything else where you want to use the better lenses, it's pretty magical and it totally works. So anyway, it's pretty slick. What it does is it shows you a QR code. It has you join its wifi and Then at that point it just shows up as a monitor and so it's not connecting to the.
- [110:55]
Andy Ihnatko
So it's not an app that you have to.
- [110:57]
Micah Sargent
There's no app. That's cool. You just join its wifi and then jump onto it and you're off to the races.
- [111:04]
Alex Lindsay
I'm thinking I can have a rider deck with a two screen display for SD added productivity.
- [111:08]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [111:08]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, there you go.
- [111:09]
Alex Lindsay
I can have my markdown on one screen.
- [111:13]
Micah Sargent
I'm sure we can think of a lot of other uses for it, but this is cool. Yeah, really, really in it. And that price.
- [111:19]
Andy Ihnatko
Oh my goodness.
- [111:19]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, yeah, exactly. If it was much more than that.
- [111:22]
Leo Laporte
But it's a nice thing to have. Yeah.
- [111:24]
Micah Sargent
Yeah. So I'm pretty impressed with it and small rigour stuff.
- [111:28]
Leo Laporte
I have a lot of small rigs.
- [111:29]
Andy Ihnatko
I've got a lot of small rig stuff.
- [111:30]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [111:30]
Micah Sargent
I was talking to someone who was building this really cool of tripod rig, you know, a super high end little head, you know, little head for, for cameras to make them really easy to put.
- [111:41]
Leo Laporte
Put.
- [111:41]
Micah Sargent
Put together. And I was like, the problem you really have with this if you get out to the market with this is how long can you sell it before small rig builds it? They're going to build it like really well and it's.
- [111:52]
Leo Laporte
And they're going to do it. Nice. Cast aluminum. Yeah.
- [111:55]
Micah Sargent
Oh, this is the, this is the snapply one. It was pretty much the same, a little thinner. The problem with this one is that again, it was a little. It's more expensive. Oh, it's a little thinner and it took forever to get here and this was like a day, you know, so.
- [112:07]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [112:07]
Micah Sargent
Anyway, they're, they're. There's two different ones, but buy the small rig one. It's better.
- [112:11]
Leo Laporte
Next US batch ships June 27th. So it won't take a day, but.
- [112:15]
Micah Sargent
Oh, wow.
- [112:16]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. They're cranking them out as fast as they can.
- [112:19]
Micah Sargent
I think office hours bought a lot of.
- [112:21]
Leo Laporte
I think you just wiped out the supply. Yeah, exactly.
- [112:24]
Micah Sargent
Because it was, it was, it was, it was a day. Check Amazon as well because Amazon might have some in stock. But we have done that in the past with office hours is we get something that's under $100 that we get excited about and like 100 people buy it or 200 people buy it and they're not used to that.
- [112:42]
Leo Laporte
I hope the same thing happens for my new clock. I don't know if you can see it. Unfortunately, it's a little blurred out because the camera's focused on Me. So let me scooch back a little bit to show you you this. Alex. You could almost use this as a clapper. This is. This is the mix. Mix.
- [113:02]
Micah Sargent
Mix is so accurate.
- [113:04]
Leo Laporte
It's accurate to the thousandth of a second. And it really is because it's using gps. There's a GPS receiver which I put in the window. So. And then look at this. This is. Will also turn into like this. Then you could do it like a big long barcode clock with the date accurate to the GPS and the time accurate to the hundredth, one thousandth of a second. And the reason it's so accurate is because GPS is that accurate. But what's cool about it is if it doesn't get a GPS signal, it's smart enough to. To shut down to just the seconds.
- [113:39]
Micah Sargent
Right. Like, I don't know. I don't know what's going on here.
- [113:42]
Leo Laporte
It's really a cool clock. This is where I got it. I saw a YouTube video about the guy who built it. The guy is insane. He builds these for YouTube and then I guess he. He sells them, which is amazing. Wasn't cheap. I got it assembled. If you have soldering skills, you can get it for £250 British. For me it was a little more expensive. Oh, out of stock. But he's making them, so he's gonna. He's gonna make more. I think he sold. He. I was expecting to wait a few months for this, and I think he must have seen that I ordered it and sent me a quick one. By the way, notice it's not flickering on our cameras. That's because it's 330 hertz.
- [114:25]
Micah Sargent
Wow. Look at that.
- [114:28]
Andy Ihnatko
Whoa.
- [114:29]
Leo Laporte
So that's pretty good.
- [114:30]
Andy Ihnatko
That's a lot of hertz.
- [114:31]
Leo Laporte
That's a lot of hertz.
- [114:32]
Andy Ihnatko
Hertz. Don't it?
- [114:33]
Leo Laporte
Enough to rotate the gate to close it, which is super cool.
- [114:38]
Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, that is neat. I like that.
- [114:39]
Leo Laporte
Look at that. Anyway, people love the clocks on our set. Apparently they use the clocks to figure out how long they've been working out or something. So I've got a new clock that's even more accurate.
- [114:54]
Micah Sargent
I love the business model of I'm going to give you instructions and tell you where to buy all the stuff. But I'll still make one for you and charge you for it if you wanted to because he's a hobbyist. But if you want to make it, here's all the stuff. But if you don't want to go through. If time is more valuable than money money, then. Then you can I'll make you one.
- [115:12]
Alex Lindsay
You know, that's good marketing because you look at the instructions. Oh my God, look how much. Look how, look how much work this person is doing into actually assembling and shipping this. And he only wants to be paid like $4 an hour for his.
- [115:25]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, I don't mind. I absolutely don't mind paying the.
- [115:29]
Micah Sargent
I look at a lot of those things. I get. I go, oh, I can do this myself. And then I look at, I look at the instructions. I think part of the instructions, like you could, but would you.
- [115:36]
Andy Ihnatko
Yeah.
- [115:37]
Micah Sargent
Or is this going to be another one of those boxes that's sitting on your desk going, someday I'm a side of this together, you know.
- [115:41]
Andy Ihnatko
Oh, my God. What are you doing looking into my office? Alex, what are you talking about?
- [115:47]
Micah Sargent
I have an office just like it.
- [115:49]
Leo Laporte
If you're, if you're intrigued, you should subscribe to his Matzella YouTube site, which has 222,000 subscribers. So I'm not telling people something that doesn't exist because he does a lot of really interesting projects. And so I'm very grateful. Thank you for. I don't know his name. I wish I did. But thank you, Mitzela, for sending me. Yeah, it's in his email. I just can't find his email. But thank you for sending it to me so quickly. And I'm very happy I told him and put it on the set and then show it off. So I'm doing that right now and I just have to figure out how to put it somewhere while it stays in focus. That's the only problem because.
- [116:32]
Andy Ihnatko
Split diopter.
- [116:34]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's what I need, a split.
- [116:36]
Andy Ihnatko
Diopter just for, just for the clock.
- [116:39]
Leo Laporte
That's what I need.
- [116:39]
Andy Ihnatko
Need.
- [116:40]
Leo Laporte
If anybody sells it, maybe he can.
- [116:42]
Alex Lindsay
Make you one with like tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, little like seven segment LEDs. And you can do like a force perspective sort of thing and just like put it like right next to your face, lined up so it looks like it's standing on top of the imsai.
- [116:54]
Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, a little bit of Leaning Tower of Pisa situation.
- [116:58]
Leo Laporte
Somebody's asked if it has a brightness control. It definitely does. I don't know how to control it, but as I get closer to it, it dims.
- [117:05]
Andy Ihnatko
Wait, how?
- [117:06]
Alex Lindsay
I don't know.
- [117:07]
Leo Laporte
It's magic. What?
- [117:08]
Andy Ihnatko
It's got a proximity sensor.
- [117:10]
Leo Laporte
I think it has an ambient light sensor is by guess. But I'm sure the details on the Mitzela precision clock Mark four.
- [117:20]
Andy Ihnatko
Oh, wow. Four generations.
- [117:21]
Leo Laporte
Oh, he's been making These for a while. GPS synchronized millisecond display that doesn't flicker even when filmed at 25,000 frames per second.
- [117:31]
Andy Ihnatko
Second, which you often do.
- [117:34]
Leo Laporte
I do all the time. And I really love the accuracy on this. Oh, there is a user manual. There we go. It has lots of additional features that I. That I don't know about. It has a bunch of date formats, time formats, of course. This guy's the ultimate geek. It has USB serial output so you can connect it up and start typing commands to is the ultimate geek gadget. And it just looks like a clock. That's the amazing thing. There's a whole GitHub repo dedicated to this clock with firmware images and everything. It's about time I had a clock that I could update the firmware anyway. Very nice. Yes, it does plug in USB C on the back, but it has a. Or actually no, it's a usb. It's an old. Older. It's an older usb. It's the micro usb. But it does have a coin back. Well, that's. You can probably have a few of those cables. I'm never going to unplug it. So that's that.
- [118:34]
Alex Lindsay
Like I have to recharge it.
- [118:35]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, yeah.
- [118:36]
Andy Ihnatko
I'm just. That's the one thing that's disappointed me.
- [118:38]
Leo Laporte
Oh, come on, man.
- [118:40]
Andy Ihnatko
Everything else has been amazing.
- [118:41]
Leo Laporte
I had a lot of those lying around anyway. Isn't that amazing? Look at that. That is guaranteed, accurate guarantee by Mr. GPS.
- [118:52]
Alex Lindsay
Okay, but when. But when you're talking about like thousands of other second. Do you have to factor in the latency of the display?
- [118:58]
Leo Laporte
The truth is it's going so fast. The last digit I can't read. It's always. It's just always on.
- [119:04]
Micah Sargent
You have to find a thing. When you test like high frame rate, you have to find something to record it. That's a higher frame rate. So I need to like, If I do 120 frames per second, I actually use my phone because I can record it.
- [119:15]
Leo Laporte
You know what records it more than 330 hertz. That's the question.
- [119:20]
Micah Sargent
You have to get something. A Black Magic Magic 12k will do 4k or do I think 1080p at 480. So that's what.
- [119:27]
Leo Laporte
We'll have to rent one. I wonder if I take a picture of it, would it freeze frame it?
- [119:32]
Micah Sargent
It might freeze frame, but again it won't like you're getting it. Your sample is so much lower than the.
- [119:37]
Leo Laporte
No, it doesn't. It's still an eight. Pretty cool.
- [119:41]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, yeah.
- [119:42]
Andy Ihnatko
That's really cool.
- [119:43]
Leo Laporte
Not as cool as yours, Alex, but it's up there. Mitzella is how you pronounce it. M I t x E-L-A.com the mark four.
- [119:52]
Micah Sargent
That's awesome.
- [119:52]
Leo Laporte
Which just came yesterday and I'm so excited about it. Thank you all so much. We do Mac break Weekly every Tuesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern Time, 1800 UTC. You can watch us live. If you're in the club, of course you can watch get the behind the Velvet Rope access in the club, Twit Discord. But you don't need to be a club member to watch live. There's YouTube, Twitch, X dot com, TikTok, Facebook, LinkedIn and Kick. Seven different places you can watch and chat. Chat with us after the fact. The show is available online at our website, Twitt TV MBW. There's a YouTube channel dedicated to the videos. So. Good way to share clips. If you want to do that, you're welcome to do that. Help spread the word. Also, you know you can subscribe in your favorite podcast client. That way you get it automatically. Right? That's Pocket Casts, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, whatever you like. But do us a favor, if you do that, also give us a five star review so you can spread the word. We need more people to know what a great show this is and we thank you for knowing that and being here. Thank you. Andy Inako anatko.com soon soon. I h n a t k o dot com and you're on Bluesky at the same I H N a T K oh, Alex. Lindsay, Officehours Global. Did you put the after hours on the.
- [121:18]
Micah Sargent
It's up there. Extra hours. So after hours, which we did during the show we just did. That's just internal, kind of like yours. It's just after hours in zoom and then the. The external discussion. Extra hours is definitely up there. So you're looking for the extra hours from yesterday. It'll say WWC on it. Probably the second or third video from the beginning. And because we do so many so. So it's so.
- [121:41]
Leo Laporte
But we've already done more after that. Well, we did.
- [121:43]
Micah Sargent
We did one this morning, so we talked about it a little bit this morning too. So Office hours.
- [121:47]
Leo Laporte
Office hours Global on the YouTube. Not just Office hours. Yeah, the office hours. Well, you know what that's is. It's pinned right to the top. The WWDC 25 breakdown. So easy to find.
- [121:57]
Micah Sargent
Yeah. Great.
- [121:58]
Leo Laporte
And I think he is in a Vision Pro, that guy. Even though.
- [122:01]
Micah Sargent
No, it's just his shot.
- [122:03]
Leo Laporte
Oh, just his shot. Looks like he's in a Vision Pro. Hey, that's a cool thing. Did it. Did people. Yeah, it does look like he's got in the Vision Pro.
- [122:11]
Micah Sargent
Anyway, you know, we did an all Vision Pro extra hours and now that the new opera, we're going to give it a couple of weeks to settle for everybody to have it and then. But there's enough of us that have Vision Pros that I think will do an all Vision Pro. We've done it once before with the first one and now it'd be great to see the new avatars be, you know, updated.
- [122:30]
Leo Laporte
Do a head to head comparison.
- [122:32]
Micah Sargent
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [122:33]
Leo Laporte
Office hours, global and of course 090 Media. If you want to hire Alex, there is nobody better to do your next event. Mr. Micah Sargent is going to be back on Tech News Weekly on Thursday and then of course every other week for iOS today. Although if you subscribe, you'll get it every week and from time to time on the other shows. We really love having you on. Oh, and of course Micah's crafting corner next week, let's not forget.
- [123:01]
Andy Ihnatko
Absolutely.
- [123:03]
Leo Laporte
I will, I will bring my vibe coding and it'll have a chill vibe thanks to you.
- [123:07]
Andy Ihnatko
Chill vibes, that's what we, that's what we strive for at least.
- [123:11]
Leo Laporte
Thank you Micah for being here. Jason Snell will be back next week. We can rib him about his failure in the upgrade draft. I hope you will all be back next week too. But now it is my sad and solemn duty to tell you you've to get back to work because break time is over. Bye. Bye. From Silicon Valley boardrooms to tomorrow's AI breakthroughs, if you need to keep up to date with tech, you need TWiT TV. At TWiT, we are tech experts who understand what's happening and can keep you in the loop. And we do it in a thoughtful, informed and fun way. Start your Sundays with this Week in Tech, a roundtable of tech journalists and people in the know with a rundown of the week's most important tech news. But that's not all. All week long you can stay ahead of Security Threats with Steve Gibson and Security Now. Keep up on all things Apple with MacBreak Weekly. Listen to the most informed Microsoft experts in the world with Paul Thurat and Richard Campbell on Windows Weekly. Our flagship shows feature tech's most respected voices, giving you the insight you need to understand, understand and benefit from the changing world of technology. We give you analysis you won't find anywhere else. So you can make smarter business decisions and take advantage of the technologies transforming your world. Whether you're a CEO, IT professional, or simply passionate about technology, TWiT's network of shows gives you the edge you need in today's digital landscape. Don't miss a minute. Subscribe to TWiT TV today.
- [124:53]
Andy Ihnatko
Hi, I'm Chris Gethard, and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous.
- [124:56]
Leo Laporte
A podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call you talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules.
- [125:06]
Andy Ihnatko
I never know what's going to happen.
- [125:07]
Leo Laporte
We get serious ones.
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Andy Ihnatko
I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison.
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Leo Laporte
I've talked to people who survived mass shootings.
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Andy Ihnatko
Crazy, funny ones.
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Leo Laporte
I talked to a guy with a goose slab, somebody who dresses up as.
- [125:16]
Andy Ihnatko
A pirate on the weekends.
- [125:18]
Micah Sargent
I never know what's going to happen.
- [125:19]
Andy Ihnatko
It's a great show.
- [125:20]
Leo Laporte
Subscribe today.
- [125:21]
Andy Ihnatko
Beautiful Anonymous.