This Week in Space 168: "Survivor: NASA"

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Week in Space 168: "Survivor: NASA"

Podcast Information:

• Title: All TWiT.tv Shows (Audio)
• Host/Author: TWiT
• Description: Leo Laporte brings together some of the most interesting personalities in technology to discuss the most important issues. Fun, relaxed, informative, and always entertaining, count on TWiT for the best tech podcasts in the world.
• Episode: This Week in Space 168: "Survivor: NASA"
• Release Date: July 11, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 168 of "This Week in Space," aptly titled "Survivor: NASA," hosts Rod Pyle and Tarek Malik delve deep into the tumultuous current state of NASA. From leadership changes and budget battles to interstellar discoveries and the future of iconic space artifacts, this episode provides a comprehensive overview of the challenges and triumphs facing America's premier space agency.

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1. NASA's Leadership Shakeup

The episode opens with a significant development in NASA's leadership. Rod Pyle announces the unexpected appointment of Sean Duffy as the interim NASA Administrator, replacing Janet Petro, a longtime KSC official.

• Rod Pyle [12:10]: "So it's only been a few weeks since Jared Isaacman was pulled from consideration... NASA now has their first reality TV show star alumni chief with Sean Duffy."

Sean Duffy, previously the Secretary of Transportation and a former Congressman from Wisconsin, brings a controversial mix of political affiliations and a lack of direct experience in space exploration. This appointment has sparked mixed reactions within the space community.

• Rod Pyle [16:19]: "There are two schools of perception... one believes he's overseeing the dismantling of NASA, while the other sees him as a cabinet-level insider with direct access to the White House."

Tarek Malik expresses concerns about how Duffy will manage NASA alongside his responsibilities at the Department of Transportation, especially given the ongoing budgetary constraints and staffing challenges.

• Tarek Malik [57:50]: "And you have thousands of people who have already said, you know what, I'm just going to take the buyout... It's really hard for me to understand and wrap my head around it on a day-to-day basis."

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2. Budget Battles and Potential Brain Drain

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the fierce competition in Congress to secure additional funding for NASA, juxtaposed against the Trump administration's inclination to cut budgets.

• Rod Pyle [04:59]: "There's a fight right now on Capitol Hill to give NASA more money than what Trump wants to give NASA."

Tarek highlights the historical trend of NASA's ambitious projects being underfunded, drawing parallels to past administrations.

• Tarek Malik [08:40]: "Back in 2004, we were there when they unveiled Constellation... but Congress never gave them the money to do that."

The hosts express skepticism about the Senate's ability to reverse budget cuts, especially with the ongoing Civilian Resolution (CR) that has stalled funding for years.

• Rod Pyle [06:55]: "It's weird because the White House says we're going to beat China to the moon, but we're not giving the money to do it."

The conversation also touches on the potential loss of over 2,000 senior NASA employees due to reductions and early retirements, raising concerns about a significant loss of expertise within the agency.

• Tarek Malik [21:09]: "How specifically were something like 500 people at Johnson, 500 people at KSC?"

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3. The Great Shuttle Relocation Debate

A contentious topic is the proposed $85 million allocation to move the Space Shuttle Discovery from the Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Center in Washington, D.C., to Space Center Houston in Texas.

• Rod Pyle [24:28]: "Here is the space shuttle in the Smithsonian and the big beautiful Bill says, Here's 85 million. We're going to grab this and we're going to take it all the way over here and put it in Texas."

The hosts debate the feasibility and financial practicality of the move, citing logistical challenges and insufficient funding.

• Tarek Malik [32:12]: "But at least they didn't have to drive it through the streets of Manhattan."

Rod criticizes the proposal, arguing that the allocated funds are inadequate for such a monumental task, potentially leaving Discovery stranded without proper placement.

• Rod Pyle [32:50]: "$85 million is not going to cover like all of that... It leaves it sitting outside or in a tent building for years."

Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois vehemently opposes the move, labeling it a "heist" by Texas, which adds a political layer to the debate.

• Tarek Malik [35:00]: "Senator Dick Durbin... says that this transfer bill... it's not a transfer, it's a heist by Texas."

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4. Interstellar Visitor 3i/Atlas

Shifting from terrestrial concerns, the hosts explore the discovery of a new interstellar object, 3i/Atlas, marking humanity's third known interstellar visitor.

• Rod Pyle [37:49]: "This new one is called 3i/Atlas... It is the third interstellar object that humanity has ever discovered passing through our solar system."

Initially mistaken as another comet, 3i/Atlas has garnered attention due to its potential origins and composition, which may date it 3 to 11 billion years older than our solar system.

• Tarek Malik [40:13]: "It's like the oldest comet we have ever seen in the history of observing comets."

The object is being closely studied by the Vera Rubin Telescope, Hubble, and the Webb Space Telescope, promising groundbreaking insights into its origins and composition.

• Rod Pyle [42:06]: "It's being investigated by the Vera Rubin telescope, which is just a couple of weeks active."

Peggy Whitson’s Axiom 4 mission to the International Space Station, which includes India's first astronaut to the ISS, is also highlighted as a significant milestone in international collaboration.

• Tarek Malik [62:13]: "Axiom 4, commanded by the always awesome Peggy Whitson... India's first astronaut to the ISS."

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5. Rocket Landing Pad Controversy

Another debated topic is the proposal to construct two experimental rocket landing pads on Johnston Atoll in the Pacific. Originally intended for rapid deployment of rockets like SpaceX’s Starship, environmental concerns have halted the plan.

• Rod Pyle [46:47]: "They wanted to build these two experimental pads on Johnston... due to environmental concerns."

Rod and Tarek discuss the practicality and environmental impact of such a move, with Rod advocating for the functionality over stringent environmental restrictions.

• Rod Pyle [47:02]: "They basically just be tipped over and put on a barge and sent back refurbishing."

Tarek counters by highlighting potential ecological risks, emphasizing the delicate balance between technological advancement and environmental stewardship.

• Tarek Malik [49:58]: "The rocket works, Rod, but this is the world's largest rocket... that's it for that atoll and all the birds."

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6. Staff Cuts and Future of NASA

The discussion deepens into the broader implications of staff reductions within NASA, referencing a Politico report about 2,000 senior-level staff potentially leaving the agency.

• Tarek Malik [56:15]: "As you said earlier, it has now more money than ever before to try to execute the science missions... but it's not clear if those 2,000 people will come back."

Rod adds context about the working conditions at NASA facilities, dispelling public myths about elitism and high salaries.

• Rod Pyle [57:05]: "These are run-down, grungy facilities... it's like working at a foundry break."

The Supreme Court’s recent decision facilitating government layoffs under the Trump administration adds another layer of uncertainty to NASA's future workforce stability.

• Tarek Malik [57:50]: "They got the Supreme Court's sign-off to do these government layoffs."

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7. James Webb Space Telescope’s Third Operational Year

Ending on a high note, the hosts celebrate the James Webb Space Telescope's (JWST) third anniversary of operational science, showcasing its stunning imagery and scientific achievements.

• Tarek Malik [64:54]: "Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one that forgets... Today's show is brought to you by the Electronic Frontier Foundation."

Rod emphasizes the geopolitical significance of JWST's achievements, highlighting its role in maintaining the US's leadership in space exploration and scientific discovery.

• Rod Pyle [65:45]: "If you're looking to exercise geopolitical soft power... this is how it's done."

The hosts share excitement over the telescope's contributions, including the recent release of the Cat's Paw Nebula image, and acknowledge its critical role in advancing our understanding of the universe.

• Tarek Malik [65:15]: "It's discovering new exoplanets and pushing back our veil of the big bang. Absolute spectacular."

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Conclusion

Episode 168, "Survivor: NASA," provides an in-depth look at the multifaceted challenges facing NASA, from internal leadership and budgetary struggles to groundbreaking scientific discoveries and the preservation of historical space artifacts. Rod Pyle and Tarek Malik skillfully navigate these complex topics, offering listeners both critical insights and celebratory acknowledgments of NASA's enduring legacy and future potential.

Notable Quotes:

• Rod Pyle [12:10]: "NASA now has their first reality TV show star alumni chief with Sean Duffy."
• Tarek Malik [35:00]: "Senator Dick Durbin... says that this transfer bill... it's not a transfer, it's a heist by Texas."
• Rod Pyle [37:49]: "This new one is called 3i/Atlas... It is the third interstellar object that humanity has ever discovered passing through our solar system."
• Tarek Malik [64:54]: "That's an amazing image. It's discovering new exoplanets and pushing back our veil of the big bang. Absolute spectacular."

Key Topics Covered:

• Leadership changes within NASA
• Congressional budget battles and their impact
• The proposed relocation of the Space Shuttle Discovery
• Discovery and study of interstellar object 3i/Atlas
• Environmental and logistical debates over rocket landing pads
• Staff reductions and future workforce implications
• Celebrating the James Webb Space Telescope's achievements

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For More Information:

• Rod Pyle: pilebooks.com | @astromagazine.com
• Tarek Malik: space.com | @tarekjmalik | YouTube: spacebarplays

Stay Connected: Subscribe to "This Week in Space" on your favorite podcast platform, follow @TwitTV on social media, and consider joining Club Twit for exclusive content and behind-the-scenes access.

Transcript

[Tarek Malik]

Coming up on this Week in Space, NASA has a new chief. There's an interstellar icy visitor from beyond. And what's up with that big, beautiful shuttle plan to move Discovery from the Smithsonian to Texas? We'll find out. So listen in.

[Rod Pyle]

Podcasts you love from people you trust.

[Unknown]

This is Twit.

[Rod Pyle]

This is this Week in space, episode number 168 recorded on July 11, 2025. Survivor NASA. Hello and welcome to this Week in Space, the Survivor NASA edition. I'm Rod Pyle, editor in chief, Bad Astro magazine. I'm joined by my fellow space worrywart, Tarek Malik, editor in [e-mail]. how are you, partner?

[Tarek Malik]

I'm doing well, Rod. How are you doing today?

[Rod Pyle]

Well, I'm okay. I've missed you for two weeks since we were hanging out in Orlando and me getting Covid and you not getting Covid.

[Tarek Malik]

I did not. I did not. My dad did. But luckily I know he shook your hand. You're the super spreader, Rod.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, it's possible. Although the timing, as I worked out, the timing when I got it with other people got it probably wasn't me, but it could have been.

[Tarek Malik]

It's not as if there weren't like seven other conferences going on at the same time. Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

So for those who might have missed our on site edition of the show, we did a live, a live podcast from Orlando, Florida for the International Space Development Conference where Tarek got his Space Pioneer Award.

[Tarek Malik]

It's right here.

[Rod Pyle]

Fun was enjoined by all. Oh, let's see it. Where is it?

[Tarek Malik]

It's right here. You can see it.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, hold it up so we could see your, your fancy copper, copper Mars pewter. Mars globe.

[Tarek Malik]

I love it. I love it. Where is.

[Rod Pyle]

Finally the groupies.

[Tarek Malik]

I know, I'll put it right back where it goes.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah. So now we both have one. We both have Mars globes. But it was great fun and a few of you showed up to be in our live audience.

[Tarek Malik]

Now, Tanya.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, I just want us, our massive live audience, I just want to say up front here. Well, I guess it's behind that. We had intended to be in a more traditional setting, but because getting a single ethernet wire into that room costs $1,000 a day at that hotel, we were forced to set up in the operations room. So it was a little ad hoc. You know, we were behind a table, there's some chairs pulled up, A few people walked in looking around like this is where they're doing their thing. But everybody enjoyed it. And just as importantly, the National Space Society leadership enjoyed it and said, please, next year do this formally. We'll get you, you know, an auditorium and blah, blah, blah or something along those lines. So for those of you who did make it, thanks very much for coming. We have more Space 2.0 shirts for next time and we'll, we'll dress it up more and get you finger sandwiches or something. For those that didn't come, shame on you. Make it a priority. All right, today we're going to dive into headlines because it's been a while since we've done that. We kind of did it.

[Tarek Malik]

Been a bit of a whirlwind of a week, too.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, it's been like on fire the last couple of weeks. But before we start, as always, don't forget to do a solid. Make sure to, like, subscribe and the other good podcast things to keep us on the air.

[Tarek Malik]

And now a space joke from my.

[Rod Pyle]

Fellow National Space Society heavyweight, Dave Dressler.

[Tarek Malik]

Dave?

[Rod Pyle]

Hey, Tarik. Yes, Rod Einstein had a theory about space and it was about time, too.

[Tarek Malik]

I get it.

[Rod Pyle]

We got a laughing mouse.

[Tarek Malik]

All right.

[Rod Pyle]

Now, I've heard that some people want to pull us out of space time when it's joke time on this show, but you can help set us your best worst or most indifferent space joke at Twist Twit tv. And now on to the headlines on an episode we like to call Survivor. NASA Survivor. NASA Jammer B says that was a thing.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, thanks a lot.

[Rod Pyle]

All right, so, yes, I took off my safari hat because here we are now. So, by golly, what a whirlwind it's been.

[Tarek Malik]

It's been, it's been like a week. I thought it was over. And then yesterday there was a whole Senate thing and everything, too. So it just, that was kind of.

[Rod Pyle]

A bombshell, wasn't it?

[Tarek Malik]

I know, right there.

[Rod Pyle]

Talked about, but I don't think any of us believed it would happen.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, there's some stuff, too. Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

It's not through yet, but. So in your mind, just before we jump into that, what do you think the odds are we'll get the extra money?

[Tarek Malik]

Oh, yeah. Do we, are we going to mention, do we have to mention the bombshell first? Are we not going to talk about the story anyway?

[Rod Pyle]

We'll do it in proper order. Yeah.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, I don't know. It's. So there's a fight right now on Capitol Hill to give NASA more money than what Trump wants to give NASA and.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, and more money than we've seen since, in relative terms, since like 1966.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah. So. So I Mean, that's loggerheads if, if you have to, to, to, to, to find an example of what it is right now. And I think it's going to be a bit of a fight to see where they can get because there's, there's folks in the House, representatives in the House that really want those budget cuts and everything. And if the Senate is saying they want to give more and the House is saying no, I don't know how they get anywhere. And then of course, you know, we've been under a CR for how many, how many years?

[Rod Pyle]

Continuing resolution.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, I mean like forever. So we'll see if they ever get it.

[Rod Pyle]

So, you know, the weird thing about this is, and we'll talk more about it, but you're looking at the White House under Trump, who started the most recent Back to the moon program, which was kind of a continuation of constellation back in the aughts, the Artemis program. They say, yeah, we're going back to the moon. No, we're not giving you money to do it.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

So that's weird. And then, you know, it steps up this Senate, I mean, and they've got, you know, valid motivation. They've got districts who want money depending on what state you're in. But it is spread out over many, many states. And the puzzling part to me is you've got this back to the White House who says we're going to beat China, the moon. You know, we don't like China very much. He's a dictator. We're gonna show them that capitalism and democracy rules and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but we're not gonna spend the money to do it. And then you've got the Senate saying, yeah, we'll spend the money. So I wonder, do you think it's possible because of the way Trump operates that maybe there was a thought there and maybe some back channel conversation about, look, I'm gonna say I want the budget cut. You guys go ahead and put the money back so I don't look bad and all is fair.

[Tarek Malik]

No, I mean I think that, that there's a lot of, of, of posturing on like, like cutting the budgets just to say that we're going to cut, you know, the expenditure. But, but, but I do believe that, that they were serious, that it wasn't like a, we're just going to do this so that people see it, but we'll roll it back again later on. And you mentioned something about not giving NASA the money, what they were doing in that initial budget, because it wasn't that they weren't going to give it for exploration. It's that they were going to, like, redistribute everything and cut the science out so that they would pay for the exploration part of it. So I think that, I mean, there's, of course, there's, there's talks about all the Artemis stuff about, you know, shutting down sls after Artemis 3 and all of that. That would be significant cuts. But, you know, the. I think that you could make a case that said that they were trying to shift everything towards exploration, you know, even though they were going to gut, like the only rocket they built to do it right now. So I don't know.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, that.

[Tarek Malik]

My head is spinning from this week, Rod, so I'm trying to find out.

[Rod Pyle]

The objectionable is, you know, oh, we can cut SLS because we love Elon and he's got a big rocket that'll be working soon.

[Tarek Malik]

But then we don't. But then we don't love, and then.

[Rod Pyle]

We hate Elon and we're never going to use that, but we're still not going to give money for the sls, which I will just remind everybody, is the moon rocket that we have. And, you know, this is the tariff president. Right. So we've seen this brinkmanship, this kind of, even this weekly.

[Tarek Malik]

Yes.

[Rod Pyle]

Seemingly arbitrary stuff. So I think the smart money here is to, to put a tariff on the moon.

[Tarek Malik]

There you go. There you go. You know, the sad part is I wish this was all like a new thing for this term. You know, obviously we saw a big, we saw a big push for space in the first administration, but remember, we've talked about this.

[Rod Pyle]

The first Trump administration.

[Tarek Malik]

The first. Yeah, the first Trump administration. But, you know, back in 2004, we were there when they unveiled Constellation and said that this was going to get us to the moon by 2020, no less. You know, and it's going to cost $100 billion. And then at the same time, Congress still never gave them the money to do that.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, but to be fair, it may be the remnants of Constellation that does get us to the moon, except for the Altair lander.

[Tarek Malik]

But the point was that the, the, the problem, it's the same problem. It's NASA saying it's going to cost this much. Congress and the administration at that time, not really putting the money where their mouth was to say that it was important. And then, you know, administrations change and priorities change and, and then we go through the dance over and over and over again.

[Rod Pyle]

And whereas China just says, here's we're going to do for the next 10 years. Any questions? Okay, shoot him. Good. Moving on.

[Tarek Malik]

Oh, you're going to get us sued, right? So.

[Rod Pyle]

Oh, I China can't sue for that kind of thing. All right, let's go to a quick break and we'll be right back to talk about the maybe sort of kind of new NASA Interim Administrator. Stand by.

[Unknown]

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[Rod Pyle]

So it's only been a few weeks since Jared Isaacman was pulled from consideration, which as far as I know never happened before. At least not at that short a juncture before it was supposed to happen. So he will not be. Our NASA administrator Janet Petro, who is a longtime KSC official had been thrust into that role.

[Tarek Malik]

And that is that me. What was that?

[Rod Pyle]

That's. That's our timer.

[Tarek Malik]

It's okay.

[Rod Pyle]

And so she had been filling it and ably, I think, you know, she kind of had to toe the line between being as responsible as possible towards NASA's priorities and also responding to the White House priorities. She kind of appeared to fall in line as not a Trump supporter, but a Trump policy enabler when it came to NASA. And then out of the blue comes an appointment of a new interim NASA administrator, Sean Duffy. I was in a meeting with a bunch of National Space Society heavyweights when this news came out, which I informed them and to a person they said who? I said, Sean Duffy, the secretary of the Department of Transportation.

[Tarek Malik]

That's right. That's right. It's a Wednesday night, so we always record these on Fridays normally. And this actually happened Wednesday night and so that it went out and I tell you. So NASA now has their first reality TV show star alumni chief with, with Sean Duffy.

[Rod Pyle]

Kill me.

[Tarek Malik]

I had to do a crash course to actually understand who he was. So. And luckily like Mike Wall, our space flight editor had a, has a great like roundup of, of Duffy. Obviously he's a Transportation Cabinet secretary, a former cnn I think like a, like a, like a pundit. Right?

[Rod Pyle]

Fox Fox, Fox CNN. That's like 180 degrees off.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, apparently he was also. He was, he was a political commentator on, on cnn and it was obvious y didn't see. Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

And so reality TV star, Fox TV star, Congress.

[Tarek Malik]

Right.

[Rod Pyle]

He was in Congress Congressman and Wisconsin. Right. And then possibly most importantly, widely perceived as a Trump loyalist, which is probably what got.

[Tarek Malik]

You forgot. You forgot world class title holder in logging in like a lumberjack sports. Because he grew up doing that as a kid. Yeah, he has titles.

[Rod Pyle]

He's kind of awesome.

[Tarek Malik]

That part is pretty awesome.

[Rod Pyle]

Putin. You can see me riding my horse with my muscles.

[Tarek Malik]

But, but so, so it's just, it's interesting because it doesn't like through reading through his career and again, you know, you, I'm sure that you've seen if you're, if you follow NASA, a lot of overviews of who Sean Duffy is. But Mike Wall has a really good rundown of like his career overall. You don't see a lot of. I think space is great and I'm going to really get into the nitty gritty of it. And so it's unlike. It's unclear how much of an interest he has had career wise in space or space exploration. Or if there just wasn't anyone there. And this is an appointment of convenience, which would make a lot of sense to just say, hey, I've got this guy. He's very supportive of my policies with transportation. He's doing some work on FAA safety enhancements and stuff in the wake of the troubles that we've been having, especially in New Jersey.

[Rod Pyle]

He's got a lot of work ahead of him.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah. And so, you know, we'll give him NASA on the interim basis so that we can have somebody in charge regularly. Janet Petro can go back to ksc, which she has done this week to oversee the space center there. And, and then, you know, they can proceed with the administration's plans for NASA, which, you know, from a budgeting appointment, you know, we were just talking about that. Not great. From a staffing appointment. Not that great either. We've got some news on that today, this week from Politico too, to talk about. And so they can have someone in charge and try to maybe move on from the Isaac man discussion, because we saw that come to a head over the weekend again with Trump complaining about Isaacman and I guess his Democratic donations again. And Isaac been shot back saying, hey, it was never a surprise. It was always in the dark for a year. Yeah, yeah. And so.

[Rod Pyle]

Can I just jump in for a second?

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, of course.

[Rod Pyle]

So there's, there's two schools of perception that I'm hearing from the pundits I talked to. One is, oh, good, they finally brought somebody in to oversee the dismantling and destruction of the space agency we created and love over the last 60 years. And on the other side, well, he's cabinet level guy. He's got access, the president, he can lift his phone and call him up. He doesn't have to go through switchboard to get to him. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So maybe there's, there's something there. But one of the big questions, as Scooter X pointed out in Discord, is how the hell is this guy going to run dot, which is already stressed to the limits and understaffed and NASA? So on the DOT side, they've got, you know, rebuilding FAA infrastructure, bridges and rail, which of course Trump said, oh, he's going to build beautiful bridges. I don't really care if they're pretty. I kind of care if they don't fall apart when I'm driving over them. So there's a lot going on there. And then to hand him the premier space agency on the planet Earth, which has, even if they get the Increase. It's still only about 70% of Space Force's budget. And I'm sorry, but Space Force, they've got some build out to do, which is understandable. They don't fly people. So why are they getting 30% more money than NASA does at in best, best estimates or about double what NASA does in the leanest estimates? This is not okay.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have an answer for you because this, again, like, I'm trying to figure out how this is going to work. So I see the, I see the argument that, that he'll be there in the cabinet meetings and can say this is what we're doing at NASA is what we need for, for, for whatnot. But, but hey, China's going to land.

[Rod Pyle]

On the moon next week. Did you guys want to try and, you know, maybe get there too, something?

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, you know, the, the, or, or, or, you know, how about this, this, this, this black hole research that we have to, to, to get out before someone else gets it out, you know, and then they become the first to take a picture of xyz. I don't know, you know, but, but it's, it's. Or, you know, how about we honor our partnerships and actually fly Europe's moon?

[Rod Pyle]

From a space journalist we both know we'll see if he decides to do it. About. I want to talk to Issa and others, maybe JAXA as well, and say, how do you guys feel about this?

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

Because if I were you, I wouldn't trust us as far as I could spit, because we keep backing out of programs that we commit to and China doesn't.

[Tarek Malik]

It's funny you should say that because one of my, one of our, one of our writers, Daisy Dubrijevac, just got back from the ESA Living Planet symposium in, in Vienna and, and heard like a good amount from scientists there who are saying, yeah, we have to step up because the US Isn't going to do it anymore. And one of my writers heard at AAS that a lot of scientists are getting, you know, calls from overseas saying, hey, if you're not getting the stuff you need in the US we've got, we've got needs for scientists like you, you know, and, and that brain work.

[Rod Pyle]

For the military, I mean, civilian program in China. Right.

[Tarek Malik]

That brain, that brain drain is going to be real. So, you know, but the other, the other thing that, the thought that's right in my mind from this naming is that, is it that they're, they're in A normal process like without all of these layoffs that have been going on. Would it have been that there was enough folks kind of keeping the ship running that you could have like that mouthpiece in the cabinet, you know, that mouthpiece administrator in the cabinet that would help steer things, get the money or whatever sorted and whatnot, while the long term agency staff just kept everything proceeding properly and on track. I could see that argument if there weren't these mass push to get people out of the agency. I mentioned it earlier, but we could talk about it now a little bit. Politico has a report that says something like 20002100 senior level management type or senior level expertise type employees are leaving NASA either through reductions, through deferred resignations, through early retirements, you know, from that push because they don't want to be there anymore, or the agency has pushed them out through these, these layoff efforts and, and that is a substantial loss of expertise. You know, when you're trying to do these big things like go to the moon and everything spread across the different. Guess they all have like headcount targets to reduce. I didn't know that until reading that piece. How, how specifically were something like 500 people at Johnson, 500 people at, at KSC?

[Rod Pyle]

And that's a lot at an organization size. Yeah, especially when you're talking about senior level. I mean it was talking to some JPL friends a few days ago and the place is like a morgue. And of course on top of this jpl, there's news, all this and stuff. They're doing a review of JPL's management by Caltech. And that was very alarming to a number of us, basically saying hey, we, we're putting out, this is NASA, we're putting out a request, a request for information. Not an rfp, not a request for proposals, but a request for information which basically means they want you to come in and give them advice for free and then they ignore you and you never hear from them again. Because I've been through that process a couple of times. But request for information about who should run JPL and how. Now Caltech's been running JPL since it was JPL. NASA came in in the 50s and conjoined, but I think it was 50s, early 60s and, but, but, but because of its history, Caltech still ran it for NASA. Now that's the only field center that works that way. And I can understand why people have some reservations, but it's created this very unique collegiate culture up there that, that I think to Some people, possibly including some people at NASA headquarters. It's elitist and like, you know, northeastern kind of blue elitist kind of thing.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, it's where they dare mighty things. Right. So.

[Rod Pyle]

But it's created this culture that, you know, NASA did very well overall during the Apollo years, but since then there's been a struggle. The stuff you see JPL do, and I'm a little biased, but I mean, when you've got rovers that work for 15 years, when you've got orbiters that work for longer, close to 20, when you got voyagers coming up on 50, 50 years, you have to respect what they do. Is it inexpensive? No. Is it reasonable? It depends on how you look at it.

[Tarek Malik]

Does it work?

[Rod Pyle]

It is simply remarkable. And it's the envy of the entire planet. So to gut a place like that. Yeah, there's a few senior managers I can think of that probably it's beyond time for them to consider retirement, but those aren't the ones that are going to leave. They're going to keep paychecks as long as they can.

[Tarek Malik]

I should know two things. Number one, when Rod says that he might be biased because he worked there at Caltech and JPL for a number.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, partly that, but also because.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, I just want to mention we saw that at NASA Watch, which is doing a fine job tracking all of these things that is coming down from management. Yeah, From. From, from management and from the agency, the directors that they're getting. So, you know, hat tip to NASA Watch and Keith there for that spot.

[Rod Pyle]

So who's able to extract and pass along the ugliest of news? Okay, speaking of ugly news, let's go to. And we'll be back to talk about the big, beautiful shuttle. Stand by. It's going to be big. It's going to be beautiful. It's going to be the most amazing shuttle you ever saw and everybody knows it. So part of the bridge, part of the big beautiful bill included $85 million, which is a drop in the bucket to move the Space shuttle Discovery from the Smithsonian Udvar Hazy center in D.C. ooh, you're flying one that's cool. To. Too bad you're not on camera. To. To Houston. So this came from Ted Cruz and Cornyn, right?

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, Ted Cruz and Corey. I have my reenactment. So here is the space shuttle in the Smithsonian and the big beautiful Bill says, Here's 85 million. We're going to grab this and we're going to take it all the way over here and put it in Texas.

[Rod Pyle]

Oh, except that we don't have a shuttle carrier plane anymore.

[Tarek Malik]

We don't. We don't.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, maybe we can do it by truck. Oh, that'll cost $2 billion. Maybe we'll do it by barge. Oh, that's very dangerous. Oh, we hadn't thought of that. And by the way, that $85 million isn't just to move it. It's to create a place for it to live at Space Center Houston, which is going to cost a fortune. And if I may add one more opinion, then I'm going to cut you loose on this. If you have tracked how Space Center Houston, which I love, they're a great place, have treated the Saturn 5 they have, which is over on the campus of the Johnson Space Flight Center. You know, it sat outside for 35, 40 years, really decaying and then they finally put it in a building, which is fine. But it was basically, if you've seen those ads for the general's metal shed, you know, they bought a big metal shed, dropped it on top and said here you go. It does protect it, but it's a rotten way to display something as remarkable as Saturn 5. KSC did it much better. And you know, I realized there financial constraints and all that. But what, what does that bode for a space shuttle compared to say what Los Angeles is doing displaying launch configuration?

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, so yeah, for folks we've talked around it, but we haven't really specifically talked about the details. But the big beautiful bill which is this massive, what is it called, a policy bill. So for the administration, it has all these different, these different directives and laws in it for what the Trump administration wants to do. And in that, as part of that kind of omnibus package, Ted Cruz and Corwin of Texas included this measure that would set aside $85 million for the, for the move of Discovery. Discovery is the most flown space shuttle. It is the space shuttle, the spacecraft of record in when it comes to museums, which means that the Smithsonian kind of is keeping it as pristine as possible as if it just stopped off the, on the Runway after its final flight in 2011.

[Rod Pyle]

And if I may say, it's the space shuttle that I got to get aboard and sit in the, the commander's seat of back in 1990.

[Tarek Malik]

Never let me touch anything. Thank you for bringing. You know what, that's so much better than flying on the zero G flight.

[Rod Pyle]

I knew you were gonna go there.

[Tarek Malik]

It's so much better. And you keep lording that one over me, but that's all I've got. Well, and and you have, you have.

[Rod Pyle]

More people coming to your website than we have reading our magazine or come to our website. You get a far better paycheck than a certain editor in chief. I know you command the respect of the world and get invited all these cool things. I'm lucky if I get some donuts for free, you know.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, maybe if they move the shuttle, they'll let me touch it finally. I don't know. I don't know. Let's.

[Rod Pyle]

But that sounds a little creepy the.

[Tarek Malik]

Way, well, well, what I'm trying to say. Well, the way that they, they, they, they kind of chose as I, as I recall, because it was really interesting to watch. Is that ever all of these, the Smithsonian, you know, would, would, would get kind of like the, the initial nod to showcase as like the National Museum of, of things. That's where the Wright brothers plane is. But excuse me one is to, to.

[Rod Pyle]

Be clear, as I recall, once something of NASA's comes back to Earth by charter, doesn't it automatically revert to ownership by the Smithsonian?

[Tarek Malik]

Well, when they retired the program, when they delivered it to the Smithsonian. Yeah, like it's, it's like if all like, like with all the museums, it's like theirs now, right?

[Rod Pyle]

I mean what I'm saying specific to the Smithsonian is Apollo capsules, you know, unused engineering twins for the robotic probes and so forth. Basically when NASA says we don't need this anymore, first rights go to Smithsonian. And if they take it, they now have ownership and, or possession of it permanently.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, if they take it, then they, but and it's, it's also with like Enterprise at, at the Intrepid and Atlantis at, at ksc. Visitors to Complex and Endeavor at California Science Center. Once they have it, they have it, right? It's, it's theirs. It's. It's theirs. I understand. As I understand it and I was talking to our historian friend Robert Perlman about it today. Like what you're saying is like that's accepted. You know, they, they accept it. NASA signs it over to them. It's like you're signing over a car that you sold so that you can get a new car. Except that in our case, our new car is not a, a nice giant winged, reusable space plane. That's a bunch of capsules and a rocket that took, you know, 18 years to, to build anyway. So. Not that I'm salty about that at all.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, can I just insert a point real quick?

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

So the cruise and coroner like okay, Texas deserve. Houston deserves its own Space shuttle, damn it, you sent one la, you sent one to New York, et cetera, et cetera. We want ours. Oh, wait a minute. Texas, you have this. The full fidelity mock up shuttle called Independence used to be called Explorer. At space centers Houston already on top of one of the two shuttle carrier planes. It's virtually indistinguishable to the lay eye from any of the other shuttle orbiters. And it's already sitting on top of this very specialized plane. One of the two that would have been able to carry Discovery back to Texas were they still flying, which they're not. You have a shuttle. It's really, it's, it's big, it's beautiful and it's got a gantry so people can walk inside of that one, which you can't do with the other ones.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can walk inside it. I think you can go inside the carrier plane too. I haven't seen that exhibit at all. I haven't had the chance to go inside.

[Rod Pyle]

I've seen it from the outside. But yes, you can go into both decks of the shuttle or see both decks of the shuttle.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

From a gantry walkway, which is an interesting thing. And then as you pointed out the way through the carrier plane.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah. As you pointed out earlier, there are two of those carrier planes that we built that NASA built. And one of them is there at Johnson Space Center. The other one I think is in Edwards. Is that where we're not called Edwards anymore at Armstrong? But it's, I could be, I could be wrong. I could be wrong. Yeah, it's been, it's been mothballed, you know, and, and so, so we don't use that anymore. And this, there's equipment that they used to build to put the shuttle on top of that they don't have. That takes like five cranes to do. And, and so there's a lot of questions about where you would do it and how you would, you would transport it and, and get it across. I mean it took, it took forever to get those, those, those, those, those shuttles on the ground streets like the, from the LAX to California Science Center. Like it had to go up a, a whole, a whole bunch of streets. They had to cut down.

[Rod Pyle]

Major. Yeah, they're removing lampposts, they're cutting down trees. When it was, remove things when it.

[Tarek Malik]

Was here in New York, when they, when they, when they delivered Enterprise to New York, it was at the, the airport forever. Then they put it on a barge and then it had to come all the way over. Then they had these huge cranes. It was crazy.

[Rod Pyle]

But at least they didn't have to drive it through the streets of Manhattan.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I would imagine. Wow.

[Rod Pyle]

The taxi drivers honking behind it the whole time.

[Tarek Malik]

So $85 million is not going to cover like all of that, you know, like backing it out of the hangar that it's in at the Smithsonian Udvar Hazy center, transporting it across, somehow getting it, you know, from wherever it lands to the Johnson Space center and then building whatever building they need. It's not going to cover that at all. I, maybe, maybe they think they're going to get more money later in the future. It's not clear, but the last thing you want to do is start it halfway, run out of money and then it's just stuck outside or in a shed or whatever for years, which is.

[Rod Pyle]

What happened at the California Science Center. We got Endeavor. It sat in a metal shed for what, 15 years, 12 years with plans to do something better. So they have now done the something better. They excavated and are building this big fantastic building that will display it in launch mode with an external tank, a solid, rocket boosters, they're not going to have vapor coming out of all the vents, which I had asked for, but.

[Tarek Malik]

They said seems like can't afford that. Seems like a no brainer. I mean they could add that later.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, because they'll add it. A living, breathing thing. Yeah, yeah. But that structure alone and the engineering and design for it I think is up close to $200 million.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

And there's 5 million they're going to get that Won't even pay for the move. Leaves it sitting, I bet you money sitting outside or in a tent building for the next 15 years while they figure out what to do.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, the same is true here in New York because Enterprise was supposed to be on its own special barge next to, next to, they have a submarine at the Intrepid encased in glass and visible from both sides of the river where it is right now. It's on top of the Intrepid in a, in a, in what was initially like it's, it's a, a temporary shelter that has since become permanent that is, you know, protected with that.

[Rod Pyle]

Isn't that convenient? And, oh, that's what we really meant to do.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, we'll just call it permanent and that, you know, that one got damaged during Superstorm Sandy. Tail got damaged because of the structure on top.

[Rod Pyle]

So the tail of the orbiter.

[Tarek Malik]

Of the orbiter, yeah. The very top. The vertical stabilizer. Pardon me for Calling it a tail. I apologize. So. So there's a lot of open questions about it. Now. There was a development yesterday and we've got another line, John, for this, if you've got room to share. It is line 26. And this came up during a Senate appropriations, a Senate committee appropriations hearing the day before we recorded this episode.

[Rod Pyle]

Look, a whole page of text.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, the part to call out is, is, I believe it was Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois during this budget markup. And he says that this bill, this transfer, bill of discovery, he says, and I quote, according to Robert Pearlman at Collect Space, it's not a transfer, it's a heist. A heist by Texas because they lost the competition 12 years ago.

[Rod Pyle]

Robert said that.

[Tarek Malik]

No, Dick Durbin. Senator Dick Durbin. Come on, man. So, so like they are trying to take the money out, right, from, from this Bring the Space Shuttle Home act, that it's in the big beautiful bill and, and say, like, we're not going to do this as part of it. So they're talking actively about pushing against that, that act right now. How they do that, I'm not sure because now that act is law, right? Because Trump signed the big beautiful bill on July 4th, which, which I think means they have to execute it right now unless Congress changes the law, which I guess they can do as well to pull it out. I'm, I'm a little murky. Somebody please, listening out there, explain that, how they, how they would do that to me. So, so we'll see, we'll see. We'll see what happens. But, but I mean, like, that's some strong language. It's a heist, you know, and, and so we'll have to see like, what happens in, in, in the weeks to come because the feasibility thing about it, is it alone. That's that ownership point that you brought up earlier. You know, could, could lead the, the son into Sue. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen there, but I guess we're trying to see where the ships are going to fall because they don't seem that they're already done.

[Rod Pyle]

You see the little, the little brush fire in Discord Jammer B saying sue him, take it to court. Say you meet a law just like the TikTok band.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

Okay. Speaking of bands, we need to go to a commercial. There's no conjunction there. Sorry. That standby.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, that was a we. If we sound real salty. I'm sorry, I just think that's a stupid idea to move the Space shuttle out of the Smithsonian. It's just. It's like dumb. But that's.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, and it comes, you know, in other times, it might not be quite so contentious, but it comes after a year at least if you're in the trade of reporting this stuff. I mean, I feel like I've been through Hurricane Sandy. It's just this constant battering of. They did what he said. What? Huh? What's happening? Oh, we're not going to get back to the moon. Okay. I guess I should have expected that. Wait, what? They're cutting? Maybe, but they want to get.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, maybe with Duffy like there, things will be a little bit more laser beam. Like the messaging will be clear.

[Rod Pyle]

I don't know. We may not like it, but at least it might.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, we may not like it, but at least there'll be like a clear picture of what's happening.

[Rod Pyle]

Next story. It came from outer space.

[Tarek Malik]

Oh, is it good?

[Rod Pyle]

This is 31 Atlas.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

New visitor of the solar system. Why, Jake ISIS turned out to be another comet. How dull.

[Tarek Malik]

Can I. Can I issue a correction?

[Rod Pyle]

Sure.

[Tarek Malik]

It's not. It's not 31 Atlas. It's 3i Atlas, so. Oh, okay. The I is for interstellar, so I.

[Rod Pyle]

Wondered what that was supposed to mean because there hadn't been 30. Okay, three I atlas.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

Thank you for the correction. I stand stupefied. Yeah. Swinging through our solar system from interstellar space. Third such object to be identified, the most famous of which was Oumuamua, which is made most famous by Harvard astronomer Avi Loeb because he contended it's an alien machine. Anybody can see it. Everybody knows it. It's big and it's beautiful. Which, you know, an assertion that was enhanced by an observed very slight acceleration as it swung around the sun should not have been accounted for by physics. But of course, as other people pointed out, hey, if stuff melts in the back half, which is facing the sun, it's going to give it a propulsive burst. But no, no, Avi feels it's for sure aliens. Along with this picked up out of the ocean off of.

[Tarek Malik]

This is really exciting because in less. In less than 10 years, we have found three interstellar comets or objects.

[Rod Pyle]

Interstellar probes, please.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, well, come on now. You know, we don't know enough. But, but we're already learning about this new one. So this new one, like you call, like you said earlier, is called 3i/Atlas. It is the third interstellar object that humanity has ever discovered passing through our solar system. It was discovered I think I want to say like earlier this year by the ATLAS detection network. And it follows, as you said, the 2017 detection of one interstellar and two I Borisov, which we saw in 20, 2019. And so, so with, with these, the like initial like studies of it so far and it's still very fresh. It's not, you know, we haven't, we haven't been studying it for, for very long. It does look like it's, it's potentially water, like water ice rich, which you would expect from a comet. But they think that it's actually like the oldest comet we have ever seen in the history of observing comets.

[Rod Pyle]

3 and 11 billion years, I think, which is a broad estimate, but still.

[Tarek Malik]

3 billion years older than our solar system alone. Right, so that's crazy.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, maybe more if it's 11 billion.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

So back to the day one, and.

[Tarek Malik]

This is like a July surprise. They discovered it on July 1st. So yeah, you said, actually you said maybe 11. But like they're saying like 7 billion right now. But they could refine that because these are all very early. In fact, I just saw an announcement.

[Rod Pyle]

Actually we could do the rest of the episode with you just pointing out my mistakes. Oh well, no, there's so many of them.

[Tarek Malik]

Clearly you were right. You were right. No, it could be, it could. Who knows how old it is, man? And who knows. By the way, you mentioned Avi Loeb, he does have a post out on Medium about this object saying that, that it's still really unclear if it's a comet or something else like an asteroid that it seems. He mentions it could be of technological origin as well there, but it's not like up front, he's really looking at kind of the, the data and the haze that it doesn't have as much dust around it as you would expect from a comet. But it could be a rocky body, something more like that. But, but this is, it's really, it's really interesting. They think that it came from a completely different region of the Milky Way than the other two that we've seen so far, which would be very interesting to see.

[Rod Pyle]

I should have downloaded a sound effect from Earth versus the flying sauces if you're. Have you ever seen that movie?

[Tarek Malik]

A long time ago, yes. Is that the one where they land in dc?

[Rod Pyle]

It either opens or opens with the aliens broadcasting somehow miraculously across the entire planet. People of Earth, attention. Look to the skies for a warning. And you know, I like and respect Dr. Loeb. He was the chair of the astronomy department at Harvard on his first round of all this later, he wasn't. But, you know, chairs do change. But it just got weird. At one point, I was trying to get him on the show, as you recall.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

And he said, oh, I'm sorry, I have an exclusive. An exclusive contract with Netflix. And I thought, oh, dear. Because that's how it starts. Right. That's how all the weirdness begins with an awful lot of people. And I was trying to hang in there with him, trying to have an open mind, which, you know, is a challenge for me because I'm a curmudgeonly old man. But, you know, when he, when he charted that. That ship and went off the coast of Papua New guinea because supposedly space force had detected what might have been an interstellar object hurtling and slamming into the water just off the coast. And they did some dredging and they came up with a handful of little concretions, little babies. You know, that's reason for. That's interesting. But when stuff goes through the air and melts, a lot of weird things happen. And immediately, you know, within days, two days, he's. He's out on the news saying, look, interstellar machines. It's proof of aliens. Come on, you're not doing yourself or the scientific community any favors here. Okay, sorry. I'm done ranting. I did want to add, you know, this. This is a great workout for the. It wasn't discovered by Vera Rubin, but it's being investigated by the Vera Rubin telescope, which is just a couple of weeks active. And they are expected to use both the Hubble and the. The Webb Space Telescope to investigate. So this will probably be the best investigated object of its kind. And I just wanted to make the point, in this age of science cuts, that the Vera Rubin telescope has already found in what, three weeks, 2,000 new asteroids.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

And, you know, part of the reason for that telescope and for looking for asteroids is to find out which one's going to slam it into the planet and ruin your day along with maybe another 3 million people. So that's kind of looking at the GIF. Spot on Discord. They're burning it up here. This is important. So it's tangential to what we're talking about, but the work that, you know, Hubble's given us, decades of these incredible things that have inspired the public like crazy. The web has continued that, and now we've got the Vera Rubin, which is going to keep you from seeing your city wiped out. So, you know, these are important.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, yeah. And in, in, in specific relation to 3:1 Atlas to this, this interstellar object. They're just getting started. It's not like we've missed the boat that this is it that we're gonna know.

[Rod Pyle]

Did you say three one Atlas?

[Tarek Malik]

Three I. Oh, three I. Oh my. I stepped right in it, Rod. Wow, that was entrapment. You all heard, you all heard online, right? You all heard that Rod tricked me.

[Rod Pyle]

So I just sit here like a dumb. Dumb as I usually do.

[Tarek Malik]

I'm just own thing. No, no, that 3i Atlas is, is, is getting closer to the sun as it passes through. So it will start to heat up. The scientists say that they're already seeing activity began Michelle Bannister of the University of Canterbury in New Zealand saying that this is a really exciting time and that with, with, with some of the most biggest, some of the biggest telescopes already observing it, they think that they're going to be able to both refine their ages, you know, estimation for it, their composition, knowledge of this thing, where it came from in our Milky Way. They could learn a lot from that over time. And they name dropped the Rubin Telescope like you said Rod, because it's the most powerful camera that we have on the planet looking up into space. And, and so we're going to find some really unique things and hopefully get some really great images of this, of this object right now as it passes through.

[Rod Pyle]

Cool.

[Tarek Malik]

All right, let's not by the way, Issa, really quickly Issa is planning a mission that's going to put position a spacecraft near the sun like in a solar orbit that will wait for a visitor like this and try to try to, to rendezvous with it. So that'd be interesting to see too. If they ever are able to get.

[Rod Pyle]

That to off the ground now would that possibly also be able to see some of these solar close neos that are very so hard to to observe.

[Tarek Malik]

As I, as I understand it, it's like a, a tech demo mission to see if they could actually intercept an interstellar object. So if they want to add that to it, they could I suppose, but it's not, it's not approved or hey.

[Rod Pyle]

Just send me up. I'm wide enough to intercept anything. All right, I want to do one more real quick before we go to our last ad break. And it is no to Pacific rocket landing. So Air Force and possibly Space Force, although it said Air Force in the story, a shelved a plan to build two rocket landing experimental rocket landing pads on Johnson Atoll and the septic Pacific which we've talked about in the past. Due to environmental concerns.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

So they wanted to be able to test, you know, this rapid deployment by rocket, presumably starship or something like it, from point to point of the planet.

[Tarek Malik]

They never said starship. They never said starship.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tarek Malik]

Just. Yeah, well.

[Rod Pyle]

And I guess you could do it with a Falcon 9 if it was reconfigured, but whatever. So they want to build these two experimental pads on Johnston, which is good because it's out smack dab. If you. If you looked up on a chart, quote, middle of nowhere, unquote, it would be Johnson Atoll. It's roughly equatorial. It's out in the central Pacific. And as I've mentioned a few times, the show. I've been there once for an hour or so.

[Tarek Malik]

900 miles from Hawaii, right?

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah. And within the first five minutes, you reconnoitered all of Johnson Atoll. It's basically a big dining room table in the middle of the Pacific. I don't even know that there's trees there anymore. It's literally just this flat atoll. No mountains.

[Tarek Malik]

Did you say a big dining room table is that.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, it's like this big rectangular thing just sitting there.

[Tarek Malik]

Okay.

[Rod Pyle]

There's no vertical relief. There's no land features because partially because it was scraped down to make a Runway, which was what it was used for during World War II, but also because it's an atoll, which is basically just a coral butte that rises up out of the ocean and then gets eroded and turns into this flat thing that's, you know, roughly one to three feet above sea level. It's a dump. Okay. It was used for military landings. Well, give me a second here. It was used for trans shipping, weapons loads. It was used for, I think, nuclear storage at some point. It was definitely used. When I was there. They had a little shed at the end of the Runway where they burned biological weapons that were no longer needed or wanted. So it's not been a pretty site. It's basically like a super fun site in some ways. And so while I support environmentalism in general, there are just some instances where you want to say, guys, you know, yes, I know there's a few seabirds there. There's a couple of species specific to the reefs, few as they are. But, you know, there's a lot of atolls in this Pacific Ocean. And, you know, how thoroughly have the complainers really studied what damage it might do to have rocket landings there? This would probably be every three to six months at most. And there's a lot of noise and fury for a few minutes and Then the rockets down. Depending on whose rocket it is, let's say it's SpaceX. Methane and liquid oxygen are not going to harm this thing. The noise might, but the compounds, no, you know, it's basically cow farts and breathable air coming out of that rocket combusted, by the way. And since they weren't, as far as I know, weren't specifically talking about using it as a launch pad, it was a landing pad. You don't even have the, the kind of impact you have from a launch where you have to store fuels and all this stuff. They basically just be tipped over and put on a barge and sent back refurbishing. So this feels a little extreme on the environmentalism side. And personally I, that sounds great if.

[Tarek Malik]

The rocket works, Rod, but this is the world's largest rocket that we're talking about. And if it doesn't work and it hits that, that atoll and it explodes and it's as small as you say it is, that's it for that atoll and all the birds. Right. So like there, there are worst case scenarios that I think you're not thinking about that. Have you ever been Park? Yes, I've been to Central Park.

[Rod Pyle]

So do you remember Tom Lehrer who was writing songs in the 50s and 60s? He was a satirist. He wrote a song called Poisoning Pigeons in the Park. It's all about a Sunday stroll where he's poisoning pigeons in the park for his delight. That would be tragic and awful. However, there's a lot of pigeons in Central Park.

[Tarek Malik]

Wow. So I guess everyone is hearing where Rod stands on.

[Rod Pyle]

I know, I know. And I'm generally a liberal. But bear with me. You know, there's a lot of seagulls. Okay. There's a lot of.

[Tarek Malik]

Some people would say, why do you even need to use this at all for the rocket cargo landings? Do you see what you did there?

[Rod Pyle]

Why would you use this atoll at all?

[Tarek Malik]

There you go. Right? Because. Because SpaceX lands their rockets on barges. Just build a bigger barge. Build, borrow or rent sea launches platform, you know, where they used to launch things and landed on there. I mean, there's a lot.

[Rod Pyle]

But then you're gonna burn the water around the barge.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, there's that too. That's why we don't have a sea dragon. Because they were gonna do all that. I'm just saying, I'm just saying there's a lot of other things that could be entertained to say this is a little bit more sustainable than like, like this whole thing where again, if it works right. Like, NASA's been launching rockets out of a nature preserve for, like, 60 years. You know, if it works. Right? You know, there are some things that I guess people can get comfortable with if it doesn't work. If NASA launched a bunch of stuff out of there and they came back and blew up and lit the whole of Merritt Island Sea Refuge or whatever on fire, we'd probably be talking about different stuff, you know, same thing at Wallops. You know, there's a whole, like, sea seashore village. So, you know.

[Rod Pyle]

All right, you atoll hugger. I'm just saying, you see, they horse.

[Tarek Malik]

Up their pad, you know, of course.

[Rod Pyle]

Jammer B jumps in on Discord and. And quotes lyrics from poisoning pigeons of the park. They call it impiety, lack of sobriety, and quite a variety of unpleasant names. And then Judy had to come in with. From another song, I think, called the Bomb. So long, Mom, I'm off to drop the bomb, so don't wait up for me. We'll all go together when we go, okay?

[Tarek Malik]

I love the community. I love it.

[Rod Pyle]

Unfortunately, I can only see Discord, so pardon me, for. For those of you on the other platforms, I. I need to adjust my system so I can see you better.

[Tarek Malik]

I got locked out and have to reset my password for that one, so.

[Rod Pyle]

Oh, please. I know Andy hasn't bought a light or replaced the negligee over his right.

[Tarek Malik]

Shoulder, but today is prime day. It's the last day of prime, and I'm gonna buy. I haven't bought.

[Rod Pyle]

Okay, So I got to send you that data. Okay, let's. Let's go to our last ad, and then we'll wrap up here. Yeah, the next one we'd like to call. Hey, give me back my job, man. Take it away, brother.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, yeah. So wait, Which. Which one are we talking about? Because there's, like, three. So there's, like, a whole package. There's, like, three other things that happen, and part of it is just jump.

[Rod Pyle]

Right in and roll around political.

[Tarek Malik]

Part of it's from space. Yeah. So we talked a little bit about. About. About JPL and, like, the. The. The kind of early discussions. It seems to change management there. But there was also this report from Politico, and I talked about it earlier in the chat where. Where there's something like. Like more than 2,000 senior staff are set to leave NASA, all because of, like, some of the job cuts and the push to do that. And yesterday when we talked about the. When I mentioned the Senate. The Senate had this appropriation meeting. There was some pushback on a lot of that, that reduction there and, and, and trying to make sure that there is funding for, for, for the, the science there is funding for, for the research and, and for all of the people that that would allegedly be, not allegedly that are being pushed out of, of the agency right now. And so, you know, I just, I think it's a little bit interesting to see how that's gonna be go. But the big question that, that I think I have is that let's say that this, this Senate push to Recover the, some 47% of NASA science funding that's, that's going to be cut gets back into there. Are those people that are departing going to come back to NASA? Like, that's not clear to me. And that's one of the points this.

[Rod Pyle]

Political and excuse me, but is there a reasonable pipeline to allow them to come back?

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, so, so because the, the, the Senate amendments, at least in this, this early stage and of course they got, by the way, this whole thing got like hung up. They didn't finalize the vote because of disagreements over the closure of the FBI headquarters office. So they didn't make any headway. They'd have to do it again and vote on the 17th, I think, to try to get this, this, this budget process going. But the big question there is if the Senate succeeds in getting this money back for NASA so that as you said earlier, it has now more money than, than ever before to try to execute the science missions and the space flight missions and all of that, will those 2,000 people be able to come back? Will they want to come back, given that the experience that they've had through all of the Doge cuts, through the administration cuts, through this kind of very strong armed budget process that, that is happening right now and, or will there are, will the people that have their jobs now that are worried about them be able to stay? You know, and, and those are questions that are still all really in flux I think, right now as we go through this process. So I just, I just kind of want to have a note to, to discuss that a little bit, but a little more to remind people that there is potential those people can get their jobs back or those jobs could be saved. But it really moves at the speed of Congress, which I think we've all seen. Yeah, exactly. Not, not the greatest. Not the greatest.

[Rod Pyle]

And I just wanted to add one note about JPL that I meant to say earlier. You know, it's had its critics over the years. There are people that don't like the system there because the Caltech involvement and all that. However, they are not civil servants. They're Caltech employees. Which means there's no pension. There are, the benefits are fairly minimal. I mean, you know, you get medical and you can buy membership to the academic club at Caltech, the Athenaeum. That's about it. And you get access to a 401k. So basically it's like working for any other small company that says, hey, we'll give you a 401k without a lot of extra benefits. This is not a knock on Caltech. This is just to say you're not going to save a bunch of money by bringing it into the NASA fold, even if it's through a contractor, because they're already kind of living on short ends and the pay is well below industry standard. So give me a break.

[Tarek Malik]

And on the, on the flip side, there was a Supreme Court decision earlier this week that basically cleared the way for the Trump administration to do a lot of the government mass firings both with contractors and federal employees. I believe, as I understand it. So like that's what when I say, like it's really weird and hard to understand like where things are, it's because they've got this, this kind of sign off from the Supreme Court to do these, these government layoffs. You have the senator saying, no, we want to give them more money so that they don't lose the brain drain. Lose to the brain drain to other, other folks. You've got a new NASA chief that's coming in that could add either some stability or some rubber stamping, depending on what, what happens over the next few months.

[Rod Pyle]

Pour gasoline, drop a match. Yeah.

[Tarek Malik]

And you, and you have all, you have thousands of people who have already said, you know what, I'm just going to take, take the, the buyout. I'm going to take the push, I'm going to go. Or they've already been laid off and, and they may not be, that may be talent that is, that is irrecoverable for the time being. And all of this is all happening at the same time. And it is really hard for me to understand and wrap my head around it on a day to day basis. And I could only imagine what it's like to be on, you know, on the ground floor in these centers, you know, doing the science and finding out all this stuff and trying to figure out what it means for you and for your job. So, you know, we're gonna hopefully get through that. In fact, Isaacman at isdc, he Said that remember about how it's a really, it's a really tough time right now, but there is a tomorrow on the other end. One way or another we're going to get there and able to, to figure it all out. So.

[Rod Pyle]

And I just want to make a point that I've kind of touched on before. But for anybody who's visited or worked at NASA facilities, you know, I think there's this perception amongst a large percentage of the public. I won't say in which states which thinks that they're, that NASA employees are elitists and that they're making tons of money and there are these incredible settings with all this, this largess and so forth and it's like stop believing what you see in movies. It ain't like that. These are run down grungy facilities at both Johnson Space center when I was there working briefly and at JPL when I was there working longer. You know, these are like surplus steel case desks from the 1950s, from the Korean War, old beat up file cabinets. You're in a little teeny office in my case with no windows back to back with somebody else who basically if you rolled, you'd have to say leaving. So when you rolled your chair, they'd roll their back, they'd roll their chair forward to get out of your way. I mean it's, it's dumpy, you know, but it's what they do to get by with what they have. And this was before these cuts, this was years ago. So you know, these are not, they're intellectually, they're high end jobs but in terms of pay and conditions, it's basically like working at a foundry break. Don't support this kind of thinking.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not laughing at you. Your, your, your description of what, what it was like reminded me about like the, like during the shuttle era when you go to the round robins at Johnson and the, the, they would have you in a little cubicle that they had made from those kind of portable bulletin board type things, you know. So you'd be in there with, with, with a bunch of wire chairs with the astronaut for like five minutes.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, if you were lucky. Yeah. It was kind of like visiting somebody in the state, state penn. @ jpl when, when.

[Tarek Malik]

But building nine was awesome, man. Building nine with all the jpl.

[Rod Pyle]

If you went to a press thing, you basically had banquet tables set up and power strips duct taped to the top of them and you were sitting like a foot away from the next guy.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

And you Know, passing breath and Covid back and forth. Okay, just want to insert something here and then Tarek last story is. Is your pick of the Oscars. All right, we want to send congratulations to Nick Hague, who is. Was just promoted to General. General Haig on the show. Yeah. Wow. We'll have him back. But Angel Orozco, who's the one who set all this up for us, wrote me today and said, hey, just want to let you know Nick was promoted to General. So congratulations, General.

[Tarek Malik]

He is the very model of a modern space force.

[Rod Pyle]

General, right from this week in space.

[Tarek Malik]

There we go.

[Rod Pyle]

Do you want me to sing that for you? Modern spacecraft General.

[Tarek Malik]

I thought I was really clever saying.

[Rod Pyle]

You're always clever. Excuse me.

[Tarek Malik]

I'm sorry. It went. It went over like a dud. So. All right.

[Rod Pyle]

John was just sleeping. It's okay.

[Tarek Malik]

So. So I'm gonna shotgun like three. Three really quick ones and to close.

[Rod Pyle]

Out the tick tock. Okay. Yep, go for it.

[Tarek Malik]

And so just a big heads up, if you didn't know, there is a private mission at the International Space Station right now. It is Axiom 4, commanded by the always awesome Peggy Whitson. We got to get her on the show, Rod. And, and it has India's first. I. Maybe we, maybe we did. And we got to get her again. You know.

[Rod Pyle]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that forgets.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, they, but they, they, they, they, they launched a couple weeks ago and they will be undocking from the International Space Station on Monday. We believe they'll be landing like within the day or two later to come back to Earth. So by the time we have our next episode, they should be back on the ground. So, you know, congratulations to them. The India Space Research Organization Agency's first astronaut to the iss. So that's really exciting. Poland and I believe Hungary as well. So. So, you know, it seems like that mission's been going very well. They've been cooking up a lot of great space food for them on the station with Johnny Kim's Twitter post. So it's been very exciting and they've got a lot of science that they've been doing. Um, meanwhile, there is a report from Space News and Jeff Faust, who is in Tokyo right now, which is exciting. I would like to go there one day.

[Rod Pyle]

Why is he in Tokyo?

[Tarek Malik]

I don't know. Because now Space News is behind a paywall and I've already used my three articles for the month, so.

[Rod Pyle]

But your, your budget's like mine.

[Tarek Malik]

But. But he does have a report out of there stating, stating that there, there are more discussions now that the next Starliner flight, Starliner 1, which is supposed to launch sometime in early 2026 now instead of late 2025 will actually be a cargo only flight. And so, you know, I don't have many details of this again because I couldn't actually read the article. It is behind the paywall and I'm looking into trying to get an access to that with my company so that we can actually bring that good stuff to you as well. So Space news is great. 20 bucks a month. I think it's on sale right now for 14amonth. Month. That's not a, that's not a plug. No one's paying for us. I think Jeff is amazing. But, but that'll be very interesting if they do that because that's been a question that we have had for a while. Will space NASA require Boeing to fly another uncrewed test flight that is spotless with Starliner or not? And it seems like they are pushing more towards that, that angle. Meanwhile, there are supposed to be tests this summer about different parts that the fixed like the thrusters and those doghouses. We actually tried to get more information about them and they're saying, you know that stuff we said back in March when we pushed the launch to 2026. That's the only update that we have right now which seems like strange that they don't have an update about that. So keep your eyes peeled and listening for that. We don't know what's going to go on Jammer B. They likely won't take the seats out. They'd want to keep a dummy in there to get that like what it feels like for the astronauts to get some, some measurements for that. And finally will end on a happy note. Rod, did you know that the James Webb Space Telescope celebrates its third year of operational science this week?

[Rod Pyle]

I did once. I read your story header.

[Tarek Malik]

That's right. We've got a story there on line 39. John, in case you want to show the very pretty picture, that is the cat's Paw Nebula, 4,000 light years from the Earth. Yeah, I know. In the constellation Scorpius. And, and it's. They just released it this week to show these close ups of the toe beans that are, that are on the Cat's Paw.

[Rod Pyle]

Can we see the Cat's Nebula?

[Tarek Malik]

What? John's working on it. Come on man, you got to be patient.

[Rod Pyle]

Okay, so it's in the political. There we go.

[Tarek Malik]

There we go. There we go. And, and so this Is, you know, Webb has got a five year nominal primary mission. We're three years into it. And so, you know, it's, it's, it's been doing amazing science. I did my jaw dropped with this mission when they launched it because it had such an intricate deployment phase and it all went off spectacularly.

[Rod Pyle]

Oh, my God. Over 400 separate articulations had to go perfectly for this thing to work.

[Tarek Malik]

I know.

[Rod Pyle]

Sat on the ground for years. It was behind schedule.

[Tarek Malik]

It got like a mess up during testing when they broke it and they had to.

[Rod Pyle]

And all I could think about was, was the Galileo probe to Jupiter when, because it sat so long, the lubrication dried out on that deployable antenna that they would never do again. It was a big wire umbrella. They get up there, the antenna gets hung up halfway through deployment and they got to work on the low gain for the next 12 or 15 years, however long it was active. I mean, just because of driving back and forth to KSC so many times and not servicing that thing before it deployed. Simple oversight. So, yeah, when you do that kind of stuff, it makes everybody nervous.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah. So a happy, happy operational birthday to the James Webb Space Telescope. These images are fantastic. It's discovering new, new, new exoplanets and, you know, pushing back our veil of the big bang. Absolute spectacular. You wonder where your tax dollars go. It's this stuff right here.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, and I was going to say look at that image and, and try to understand what kind of impact that has globally when the world sees this kind of stuff that until very recently, only the United States could do. And even at this point, still really at this resolution anyway, only the United States could do. I'm not a bragging nationalist here. I'm just saying if you're looking to exercise geopolitical soft power, if you're looking to lead in space, like I keep hearing from every freaking administration that comes and goes, particularly this one. If you're looking to be global leaders in space flight and science and education and all that stuff, this is how it's done. So, you know, given the money they need. Okay, do you have anything else?

[Tarek Malik]

Well, like NASA says in the announcement for this photo, it's the cat's meow. That's it. That's, that's my, that's my kicker for today.

[Rod Pyle]

So sad kicker.

[Tarek Malik]

All right, well, somebody, somebody look on the floor. I think, I think Rod's eyes rolled out of his head.

[Rod Pyle]

I want to thank everybody for joining us today for episode 168 that we like to call Survivor NASA. As you heard, the second time we played that video. Tarek, where can we see you watching over our favorite space agency online?

[Tarek Malik]

Well you can find [e-mail] as always on the Twitter and the Bluesky @tarekj. Malik if you like video games, I'm on YouTube at spacebarplays. Superman is in the game now for Fortnite and Superman. Our favorite alien right from the planet Krypton hits theaters this weekend. I'm gonna go see Superman on Sunday. It's gonna be great.

[Rod Pyle]

Your 6th grade teacher must be so proud. And of course you could find me at pilebooks.com [e-mail] and remember, you can always drop us a line because we do answer our emails at twistwit tv. We welcome your comments, suggestions and ideas and probably I will answer them new episodes this podcast publish every Friday on your favorite podcaster. So make sure to subscribe, tell your friends, give us reviews. We live and d your reviews. Well and by you joining Club Twit, five stars or a thumbs up will do nicely in addition to your your monthly or annual Club Twit membership. And by the way, I should mention you can join Club Twit. Now back to annual memberships as well as monthly ones. Or do I have that backwards John something? No, we have, we have, we have yearly. That works. Yeah, I just want to make sure I got the order right because it, it helps your favorite network of podcasts stay on the air and bring you all these great shows. And if you've listened to the other ones, you know how swell they are. And then of course there's always us. And with Club Twit you get special benefits. You can see behind the scenes stuff like Tarek falling out of his chair over and over and over again. I like to put it on. I like to put it on a loop for repeating so I can just keep watching you dump out of your chair and other behind the scenes stuff along with ad free content. So you know, you just skip right over those because John is a nimble fingered editor when it comes to doing what he's got to do. 7 dot no. $10 a month. Now I gotta change that. $10 a month monthly and yearly. Sign up and do it. You can also follow us on the twittech Podcast network, at Twit, on Twitter and on Facebook @Twit TV on Instagram. Thank you everyone, it's been fun and we'll see you next week.

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