This Week in Space 171: What's a UNOOSA?

Summary

Episode Summary: "This Week in Space 171: What's a UNOOSA?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: All TWiT.tv Shows (Audio)
• Host/Author: TWiT
• Episode: This Week in Space 171: What's a UNOOSA?
• Release Date: August 1, 2025

Participants:

• Rod Pyle: Editor-in-Chief, Bad Astro Magazine; Director of Communications
• Isaac Arthur: President of the National Space Society; YouTube Personality
• Dr. Rick Janet: Founder and Executive Director of Expanding Frontiers; Director of the National Space Society; Chair of its International Committee

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Introduction

The episode opens with Rod Pyle introducing the topic of UNOOSA—the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs—and the National Space Society's (NSS) role as an observer within this international framework. Isaac Arthur joins as a guest, bringing his expertise as the NSS President and a prominent figure in the space enthusiast community.

Moving the Space Shuttle Discovery

Rod Pyle (00:14): Rod discusses recent legislative efforts to allocate $85 million for relocating the Space Shuttle Discovery from the Smithsonian’s Udvar-Hazy Center in Washington, D.C., to Houston. However, he highlights several challenges:

• Insufficient Funding: "85 million does not appear to be enough to actually make the move" (03:08).
• Smithsonian’s Claim: The Smithsonian asserts ownership based on NASA’s 2012 transfer of the shuttle, emphasizing their role as the national repository for aerospace artifacts.
• Existing Display in Texas: Texas already hosts a mock-up of the shuttle at the Space Center Houston, complete with a shuttle carrier plane, raising questions about the necessity and feasibility of relocating the original Discovery.

Dr. Rick Janet (05:18): Suggests that the shuttle might be better housed at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Museum in Ohio, noting its significant aerospace collection and high visitor numbers.

Understanding UNOOSA and COPIOUS

Isaac Arthur (12:17): Explains that UNOOSA and COPIOUS (Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space) were established in the 1960s to govern international space activities. COPIOUS acts like a legislative body, while UNOOSA functions akin to an executive branch, managing the registry of objects in space and facilitating international collaboration.

Rod Pyle (14:23): Inquires about the practical workings of observer status within UNOOSA, emphasizing the cooperative rather than confrontational nature of these interactions.

The Policy-Making Process at UNOOSA

Isaac Arthur (17:05): Describes the policy-making process as a consensus-driven effort where all 104 member states have equal voting power. "It does have to be a unanimous vote. So effectively everyone has veto power" (25:05).

Dr. Rick Janet (35:10): Highlights that the discussions around space traffic management and space resource utilization are still in their early stages, emphasizing the need for global coordination to manage the increasing activities in space safely.

The Outer Space Treaty of 1967

Isaac Arthur (30:42): Provides an overview of the Outer Space Treaty, signed during the Cold War to ensure space remained a domain for peaceful purposes. He notes current challenges:

• Property Ownership: The treaty prohibits the appropriation of celestial bodies by any state, raising questions about how private companies can invest in and utilize space resources.
• Modern Relevance: "We need to rethink... as commercial space activity grows, as more state actors start having a space program, more coordination is necessary" (33:48).

Rod Pyle (34:47): Remembers historical attempts by both the US and Soviet Union to militarize space, underscoring the treaty’s original intent to prevent such developments.

Current Discussions and Future Frameworks

Isaac Arthur (35:10 & 37:01): Details ongoing efforts to address modern space challenges:

• Space Traffic Management: Developing international guidelines to prevent orbital debris and manage the increasing number of satellites.
• Space Resource Utilization (ISRU): Creating principles and best practices for mining and using space resources responsibly.
• Action Team for Lunar Activities Consultation: An initiative involving all member states to coordinate future lunar missions, led by representatives from Romania and Pakistan.

Dr. Rick Janet (43:16): Discusses the complexities of establishing ownership and operational guidelines for lunar and asteroid mining, emphasizing the need for clear, international agreements to prevent conflicts akin to the "Wild West."

Regulation Sandbox Concept

Isaac Arthur (49:54): Introduces the concept of a "regulation sandbox," borrowed from sectors like finance, to allow limited, trial-based deregulation in specific areas of space activity. This could enable innovation while monitoring potential risks, though practical implementation in space remains uncertain.

Visions for the Future of Space Governance

Dr. Rick Janet (52:52): Reflects on popular cultural visions of space governance, contrasting utopian (e.g., Star Trek) and dystopian (e.g., The Expanse) scenarios. He expresses hope that international bodies like the UN will guide space activities towards peaceful and cooperative endeavors.

Isaac Arthur (53:05): Agrees, emphasizing that the UN’s role is to facilitate ongoing dialogue and adaptation of regulations as humanity’s presence in space expands.

Implications for the Public

Dr. Rick Janet (55:43): Highlights the importance of public awareness: "These are discussions, these are discussions that are happening... Ultimately going to lead to agreements that member states are going to take back and that they're going to create laws around these particular things" (56:21). He urges space entrepreneurs and enthusiasts to stay informed about international regulations to navigate the evolving legal landscape effectively.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Rod Pyle thanking the guests and encouraging listeners to engage with the National Space Society’s initiatives. He underscores the significance of understanding and participating in international space governance to ensure sustainable and peaceful space exploration.

Notable Quotes:

• Rod Pyle (03:08): "85 million does not appear to be enough to actually make the move."
• Isaac Arthur (17:05): "It does have to be a unanimous vote. So effectively everyone has veto power."
• Isaac Arthur (25:05): "Space traffic management... they start to agree on something. It's a conversation amongst the ants, but it hasn't, you know, it is an important and far-reaching agreement."
• Isaac Arthur (30:42): "The Outer Space Treaty is basically our only global treaty that is governing how state actors are going to behave."
• Rod Pyle (34:47): "We were looking at how you could arm space stations of the future."
• Isaac Arthur (49:54): "A regulation sandbox is... allowing them to operate under this new set of regulations for a limited amount of time and see what happens."

Final Thoughts

"This Week in Space 171: What's a UNOOSA?" offers a comprehensive exploration of the United Nations’ role in regulating space activities and the National Space Society's contributions as an observer. Through insightful discussions, Rod Pyle, Isaac Arthur, and Dr. Rick Janet delve into the complexities of international space policy, the challenges posed by modern commercial and state actors, and the critical need for updated frameworks to ensure peaceful and sustainable space exploration for humanity’s future.

Transcript

[Rod Pyle]

Hey, space fans. On this episode of this Week in Space, we're talking to Dr. Rick Janet about the United Nations Office of Outer Space affairs and the National Space Society's role as an observer.

[Mark Turner]

Join us.

[Rod Pyle]

Podcasts you love from people you trust.

[Isaac Arthur]

This is trit.

[Rod Pyle]

This is this Week in space, episode number 171, recorded on August 1, 2025. What's an EDUSA? Hello, and welcome to another episode of this Week in Space, the what's a Yunusa Edition. Figure that one out. You have to see it in text to understand it. I'm Rod Pyle, editor in chief, Bad Astro magazine. It is my treat today to be joined by that icon of YouTube, the greatest, Isaac Arthur, also president of the National Space Society and probably has a lot of other titles after his name. How are you doing, Isaac?

[Rick Janet]

Doing pretty good, I think. The only one out comes is Chairman of the Board of Elections for Ohio.

[Rod Pyle]

That's the one I was trying to remember.

[Rick Janet]

Strange one.

[Rod Pyle]

There's too many words at my age, so. But that's. That's impressive.

[Rick Janet]

We have an acronym for it like everything else, like, you know, so copy yourself. So what's your acronym later?

[Isaac Arthur]

Yeah.

[Rick Janet]

Oh, boe. A A C. Boe. So, wow.

[Rod Pyle]

Okay. Today we'll be joined in a few minutes by Dr. Rick Janet, who is the founder, executive director of Expanding Frontiers, which is doing good works down in Brownsville, Texas. He's also director of the National Space Society and the chair of its international committee and the vice president of the Technology and Science Advisory Board, I think that's the name.

[Isaac Arthur]

And.

[Rod Pyle]

Oh. Who oversees the U.S. the National Space Society status with the United nations as an observer. So he's got a full portfolio. There's more to that, but we'll leave it there for now because we'll have him on. Just a few minutes now before we start. Don't forget, as I tell you every week, and have you done it yet to do us a solid? Make sure to, like, subscribe and the other podcast things that will keep us happy and on the air. We are counting on you. And I do read the comments, actually, and even the ones that are less pleasant, but there's only been a couple of those. So very happy about that. And now a space joke from friend of the show, Mark Turner. Hey, Isaac.

[Isaac Arthur]

Hey, Rod.

[Rod Pyle]

Why can't you trust the moon?

[Rick Janet]

Why can't you trust the moon?

[Rod Pyle]

Because it has a dark side. And actually they call it the dark side of the moon. It's just dark. When it's dark, it's got a Day, night, cycle. But that's okay.

[Rick Janet]

I get using that sometimes it's dark relative to Earth and Earth signals.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, exactly. Now, I've heard that some people want to send us to the dark side of the moon as joke time in this show. But you can help by sending your best, worst, or most different space joke to us@TwistWit TV. And I got a whole catch of them a while ago, largely from Mark Turner and a handful of others. And I appreciate that because, well, frankly, they're better than mine. All right, and now we're going to go on to an abbreviated headline news.

[Isaac Arthur]

Headline news. Okay, in my defense, when you said abbreviated, I was thinking of the sound effect. Good.

[Rod Pyle]

Good morning, John. Okay, so let's just do one story this time, one that's near and dear to all of us who owns Discovery. So the big beautiful bill had $85 million included for moving the space shuttle Discovery to Houston from the Udvar Hazy center in D.C. where it is under the control of the Smithsonian. There's a couple of problems with that. 85 million does not appear to be enough to actually make the move. On average, it costs a couple hundred million to build a facility to house a shuttle. Unless you're just going to put it in a big inflatable tent, which is an icky way to display it, L.A. for instance, Los Angeles, where I live, is displaying their shuttle in vertical launch configuration in a big building. And that was a couple hundred million. So there's a few bugs there. But a bigger bug is that the Smithsonian said, no, this is a heist. This is our space shuttle. We have the paperwork to prove that NASA gave it to us. And I quote, NASA has transferred all rights, title and interest and ownership of Discovery to the Smithsonian 2012. And that is part of the National Air and Space Museum's mission and core function as a research facility and the repository of the National Air and Space collection. Technically, just about anything comes back from space and lands on Earth belongs to the Smithsonian if NASA made it or NASA paid for it through contractors. So it's a weird story because Texas isn't giving up. And this is something that the senators of Texas have been beating the drum on for years. They feel they should have a shuttle. I would just like to say, as I said a couple weeks ago, they do have a shuttle. It was a mate d mate mock up. It's sitting out in front of the Space Center, Houston, which is right across the street from Johnson Space center on the back of one of two shuttle carrier planes. They're the only museum I know of that has a shuttle carrier plane. So you've got a shuttle and people can actually go inside that one. So why, oh, why, Isaac, I asked you, should Houston spend all this money and deprive D.C. of their shuttle?

[Rick Janet]

You're right. It should obviously be at the Wright Patterson Air Force Museum here in Ohio in Dayton, which is vastly more worthy of a shuttle.

[Rod Pyle]

Said like a true politician.

[Rick Janet]

But I mean, it's a fair point to raise is obviously whatever the Smithsonian has can be moved to other locations. But if it's set up that basically anything coming from NASA belongs to Smithsonian, then there's an awful lot of states, an awful lot of groups, and awful lot of places that might want some of that heritage, too. So not saying Texas necessarily has an inside track to be able to get this, or maybe if they are willing to put up the rest of the money, they can get it. But at the same time, I don't think we want to have everything stored in the Smithsonian. And I can sympathize their perspective. They are the country's museum. But there's a lot of the country and a lot of museums.

[Rod Pyle]

Just drive there. What?

[Rick Janet]

Well, D.C. is close to me in Texas.

[Isaac Arthur]

Is.

[Rick Janet]

But.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, there you go. I mean, how long can it take?

[Rick Janet]

Much closer to everybody.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, but it's an Air Force base and, you know, and that's an interesting discussion. So, for instance, we have Jet Propulsion Laboratory about six miles north of me. It's the only major NASA field center without a museum because there's no real estate there. It's nestled in a crook in the foothills above Pasadena. And there is a Hoity Toity Equestrian center and a sheriff training facility nearby. But without taking those over, you have no room for a visitor center. So you can only go like one or two days a year to go visit jpl, which is a shame because it's a really cool place. How would an Air Force base have a visitor center? Is that something they could accommodate?

[Rick Janet]

The museum at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, the aerospace there is huge. They get gone thousands and thousands of visitors. I used to go down there for my lunch break. So I was an intern back in 2000, but walked up the hill at the actual Air Force Institute. Huge museum, gorgeous. If you haven't been there, go there. All shuttles aside, but I think just that kind of context. I hate to say we should be auctioning off, but there's a lot to be said about asking states. What kind of visitor center are you willing to provide? What kind of matching funds Are you willing to offer to get this piece of American history at your location so it's close to other people to go look at and presented best and might.

[Isaac Arthur]

Be a thing we're thinking about there.

[Rick Janet]

But you know, again, if you haven't checked out the museum, absolutely. It's great.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, that's the best commercial I've ever heard for Wright Patterson, so well done.

[Rick Janet]

Go IO.

[Rod Pyle]

Oh boy. We will be right back in just a few seconds with Dr. Rick Janet to talk about the National Space Society and the United Nations. Stay with us.

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[Rod Pyle]

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That's not the scientific method.

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Moment.

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[Rod Pyle]

And we are back with Dr. Rick Janet, who is the founder and executive director of Expanding Frontiers, on the board of directors of the National Space Society and the chair of its international committee and the vice president of. What's the name of that?

[Isaac Arthur]

Technology and Entrepreneurship.

[Rod Pyle]

Technology and Entrepreneurship. So you wear about 19 hats for us, which we appreciate. And it's Pirates Day here because we have you. And Isaac Arthur, as previously introduced, is the president of the National Space Society. So I'm actually the only one that doesn't have an officer's title. So I'm. I'm the small dog here today, the director of communications. Well, that's true, but. Yeah, okay, sure. But. But, Rick, I have a quote here that I want to read. I was trying to think of ways to introduce you, but Walt Ugalde on LinkedIn did a better job than I could do, which is to say, Dr. Rick Janet is a rare combination of integrity, ambition, and intelligence. And I will just add to that that after I saw you at the ISDC take the podium, you're also funny as hell. So welcome to the show.

[Isaac Arthur]

Well, you're making it very difficult for me to live up to that, but thank you very much. Thanks, Ron. It's great to be here.

[Rod Pyle]

People laughed at your jokes, probably because they were at my expense, but that's okay. I thought it was a lot of fun. So. So we're here today to talk about the connection between and the work being done by the National Space Society in conjunction with the United nations, which is something you took on about two years ago. I Think, right.

[Isaac Arthur]

I guess as vice chair two years ago, but had been on the committee for at least a year and a half, two years before that as well.

[Rod Pyle]

Okay. So I guess what I would be interested to know is how this connection came about and what it is, and then we can talk about Yunusa and Copious.

[Isaac Arthur]

Sure, sure, sure. So. Well, the real, the real connection between NSS and the United Nations Office of Outer Space affairs in the UN in general happened 24 years ago or so in 2001, when visionaries at the NSS saw an opportunity to become a permanent observer at the un, which enables them to actually be part of this global conversation. So I'm only coming into this whole thing obviously, and you know, this the last few years now, but it's been, it was, it was great to see and it was actually one of the reasons why I joined NSS is that I saw that they had this global influence and an ability to have a fantastic global influence. And so that's, you know, that's kind of where we, where we were. And then, you know, quick shout out to the CEO Carlton Johnson and his, his leadership is setting the tone. And he and the other NSS leaders have trusted me to really, you know, kind of run with the International Committee and build up NSS's global reach. So it's been a pretty exciting journey.

[Rod Pyle]

And I remember Al Anzildua, Alfred Anzaldua was also involved with that for a while, of course.

[Isaac Arthur]

And thank you for. I would be remiss, not to mention Al. Al was a mentor of mine as I joined the International Committee. He kind of showed me the ropes on the floo at, at the Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space and the UN in Vienna as well. So, so yeah, was great to work with. It is great.

[Rod Pyle]

And how handy to have a guy who spent 25 years at the State Department when you're dealing with such things. Isaac.

[Rick Janet]

So for folks who might not be as familiar, we just said what the acronyms here were. CORPIOS and unoso, the UN Office of Outer Space Affairs. Can you tell us a little bit more about those actually are what they serve and what they are, what their main goal is.

[Isaac Arthur]

Certainly, certainly. So these, these entities were created in the 60s. So Unusa, you know, the, the United Nations Office of Outer Space affairs, it was basically the directorate that would run the Committee on Peaceful Uses of Outer Space. So they're the ones that provide the service that, that basically organizes that entire, that, that group and brings together what is now the 104 member state delegations that come and meet three times a year. ONUSA is also, I mean, I like to look at it as copious is kind of like the Congress and ANUSA is kind of like the Executive branch. So copious, that's the member delegations, they're the people that are setting, you know, what's going to happen, what should happen, you know, the principles, the laws, in some cases early on. And it's YANUSA that kind of carries out and makes sure that things are being carried out. So when you register, so, you know, I guess few people, it's great to educate people about the role of these two organizations because they do have an influence and a growing influence in space development now as space development is ramping up and any member state that launches is required to actually register the objects with the UN Office of Outer Space Affairs. So they keep a registry of everything that is up there internationally. And of course, COPIOUS is the body that is think, is basically thinking about legal frameworks and in some cases, like the Outer Space Treaty, developing what will become actual laws, international laws. So very important now as commercial space activity grows, as more state actors start having a space program, more coordination is necessary. And so more and more member states are joining these discussions. More and more observers are joining these discussions.

[Rod Pyle]

So I think when most of us think of the un, we think of the big hall and some angry delegation getting up the podium and slamming the heel of their shoe on the podium saying, I don't like this, this, this proposal and we're going to do that. We will never vote for this. And having observer status is a little different than that. So how does that work?

[Isaac Arthur]

So, so first off, the having observer status is a privilege. It is. We're allowed to be there because the member states allow us to be there. And it is something that, you know, we take seriously and NSS takes seriously as we want to be a resource for the delegates. So they're definitely. There are observers that will go up there and slam their hand on the table and say, you need to be doing this, you need to be doing that, all that kind of stuff. Which is fine, that sort of has its place. But we feel we want to take a. Let's listen to what the member states are saying. Let's talk to them, have a dialogue with them to understand where are gaps in the knowledge, where are things that they're trying to understand and wrestle with so that we can then produce the, the research, the papers, the presentations that can inform them so that they can, you know, they can take that back to their, their countries. They can, you know, you know, use that as they develop the guiding principles.

[Rick Janet]

On the topic of the principles, they'd say they've got, you have the laws, you got the treaties, you got the policy versus the legal framework for things like policy or principles. Some would argue, like, what's the actual purpose there? What's the point that that gets to as opposed to a treaty?

[Isaac Arthur]

Oh, that's, that's an excellent, excellent point. Matter of fact, in our last international committee meeting, we had a, we had a very good discussion kind of around this and one of our, I think one of our youngest members who's actually brings, comes to us from Nairobi in Africa. Cynthia Shahemi, she asked that similar question. Like what, you know, why do we, why do we do this? Why do we write down principles? Why do we do this kinds of stuff? And so we're thinking about it and so forth, and you look at history and you think, well, what was the Magna Carta and what was the Declaration of Independence? There's a bunch of people that got together and wrote down how they feel things should go now, you know, depending upon how it's presented, where it's presented, and so forth. Some, some may stick, some may not. But it all has to start. You got to start somewhere and you have to start putting these thoughts down in paper and you have to start reviewing it and you start building momentum around it and so forth. So that's really what the value of these principles are, is let's start having this conversation, let's start putting words down, let's start everyone, like, thinking about it and so forth. And it's the first step towards developing best practices and then ultimately moving on to, you know, real, real codified treaties and laws.

[Rod Pyle]

All right, well, we're going to consider our next treaty after the short break, so don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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[Rod Pyle]

So you kind of touched on this. But when you're talking about the specific roles these offices and the UN more broadly in space, I guess the big discussion is policy and legal frameworks and as you noted to me, principles, not laws. So I'm sure some people ask, what's the point? But first I think we need to understand exactly how it works. Well, maybe not exactly. I mean broadly how it works.

[Isaac Arthur]

Well, sure. Now when we say how it works, it's an interesting. So what happens? And this is one of the great things about being a fly on the wall. There is, there will be a group that proposes some, some set of principles and then it kind of goes through the entire process, which that in of itself is pretty amazing to watch. So what happens after things are presented is that literally everyone has conversations about it. Like you'll have the behind, you'll have the in the, on the margins conversations about it where different groups are now going to talk about it and so forth. And then you have. Where people become the avatars of their country, as I like to put it. So in other words, it's the official, it's the, it's the official discussion where everything's translated, which that in of itself is an amazing experience, by the way. It's just like, wow, everyone is speaking in their natural language. And I understand everything. It's like, this is, this is amazing. But what has to happen now is they will literally put up like, okay, we think this is the way we think this should be worded. And that gets put up on the screen, right? And then all the delegations start to respond and some may say, oh my God, this is, this is like pulling teeth. Because it's like they're, they're, they're each trying to, you know, adjust certain words and so forth and so on. But what I'm seeing is, is it really is in a global sense, it's team building. Right. You see this, it's a very similar team building exercise that you do with groups of four or five people that are working at one company. And you' seeing it now happen on the global stage where everyone puts their input, everyone says, now in this format there's, they're representing their states, so they're very careful about what they say and how they say it and so forth. And you get to see various things being reflected and so forth, but eventually they come down and they, they start to agree on something. So now of course one thing might. When people talk about the, the speed at which it works, it may take an hour to get the heading of a section figured out. But when it's figured out, it's figured out and agreed upon by the 104 member states that are in that room. So you know, okay, it's a conversation amongst the ants, but it hasn't, you know, it is an important and far reaching agreement that was just made and that this is wording that could be agreed upon by groups and cultures that are speaking different languages and so forth. So that level of assassin's making is amazing to see. And you know, I, I think it is, I think it is something very positive on a global scale.

[Rod Pyle]

So if you're discussing a, let's say a big space initiative of some kind, you know, talking about future resource rights or something in general, does the entire membership of the UN vote on that? Does that mean that you've got, you know, a small island republic in the central Pacific possibly blocking something, or is it somehow skewed towards the large space powers?

[Isaac Arthur]

Yeah, so when it comes to, so when it comes to copious. So the specific committee, the way this was set up is it is set up as a consensus body. And so just like what you said, in order for anything, any action to move forward is it does have to be a unanimous vote. So effectively everyone has veto power. So you're right, it doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter. It's not based on size or anything like that. Every delegation has equal authority to say, no, I don't, I don't agree with that. So yeah, and that's just the, that is the, the, the, the reality of that. But it also means that when they do agree on something, you know, it is something that is agreed on by the entire, the entire membership, which is reflecting the entire voice of humanity.

[Rick Janet]

I guess it kind of fits the kind of follow up there being what exactly is the value of this? If we have to get Abby on the table to agree. And I'm guessing that doesn't happen as often as everyone would probably like. What would you say the value to humanity as a whole is and to the United States space program or to other major space programs who are actually doing most of the day to day operations?

[Isaac Arthur]

Right. So. Well, part of that is, you know, okay, right now it's a small number of state space actors, but we know especially NSS's vision is that going to space with humans living and working outer space is a global endeavor and it does require the large talents across many different diverse backgrounds and so forth. So what is it doing? Well, there's things like space traffic management, right. So you need to coordinate those activities just the same way internationally we have air traffic management and there are certain legal frameworks behind that so that we're able to fly over anywhere in the world and expect certain laws to be adhered to and so forth. So it's that same, it's that same idea. It's this international coordination big thing that we, we, you know, especially the here, us in the room here, we know that debris, orbital debris, it's a big deal, right? The States are launching things. Okay. You know, what do they, they just, they just stay there. Right now things break up and those particles are all over the place. They're going to cause problems so far, knock on wood, it hasn't. But those discussions need to happen on a global scale as to how do you coordinate all of this stuff and who coordinates it and those types of things. Another one which we don't necessarily think of, but UNUSA is thinking of this has to do with space defense. And what do I mean by space defense? Well, okay, there's, there's human generated defense issues. Fine, okay, fine, we know those. But this is if you know what happens if you know, an asteroid comes by and actually looks like it's going to impact somewhere in the globe. Who deals with that? Right? And those are types of discussions and those, that's the type of coordination that UNUSA and related groups would, you know, starting to consider and would be considering. And so it's that global coordination is where the real value, the real value is there is also space resources. How does one use space resources in a coordinated way that's aligned with the Outer Space Treaty but enables development? So those policies are starting to be developed and thought about. And so that framework is starting to come together. And that's something that you know, all, all interested groups that are going to want to take advantage of space resources, they're going to want to know that that's there for various reasons. So, so yeah, no, there's, there's, it's, the coordination issue is, it's making, you know, it's making sure that things are being done safely. There is the, there is this idea, it is a mantra that comes up all the time is that space, especially in this committee, is for the, is for peaceful purposes. And I think it's very important that that gets stated over and over again and over again that space is for peaceful purposes. And the delegates are there, they say it, they reaffirm that whole important, important aspect of things. So yeah, so there's, it is this global coordination across many different aspects of space exploration and development that makes copulous extreme very unique. People hate it when I say very unique, but make it, make it unique. Unique amongst anything that's happening in the, in the world and is becoming more and more relevant now. So.

[Rod Pyle]

I think we're going to need to circle back to that 800 pound gorilla about peaceful uses of space after this next break. So stand by, we'll be right back. So the origin of all this was the Outer space treaty of 1967. Very old, set up initially, as I understand it, between the US and the Soviet Union. But other people eventually signed it. So maybe you could talk a little bit about what it is, why it's important and the conversation around does it need to be updated.

[Isaac Arthur]

Excellent. So I mean, as with any legal framework, why it's important, you know, it is to give some security for operations that are happening in space. It gives some reaffirming as to what ex. What the expectations are in space. And, and you know, this was being done in the middle of a cold war. We know it was kind of on our minds at the time and kind of wanted to make sure that we all agreed, all right, you know, this could be bad for everyone. So let's just, you know, let's just agree on how we're going to operate in this, in this way. And I think everyone, you know, again, oh, I should say not, not a legal expert on this. And this is what I've gleaned over my, my time at at Copious and UN and my, my friends that are way more knowledgeable of this. But the Outer Space Treaty is basically our, basically our only global treaty that is governing how state actors are going to behave. And this is where this mantra of for peaceful purposes really comes into play and I think is, you know, extremely important as we can all, we can all gather. But it was A document that was written in. In the 60s. Certain issues, important issues that are starting to be questioned about it now has to do with what does it mean about ownership of properties? Now, it is very clearly stated that states cannot appropriate property or land on celestial bodies. Right. So what exactly does that mean? You know. You know, you always start to pick apart things and wonder why certain things were worded and stuff, because, you know, the Earth is a celestial body and, you know, states are appropriating land on celestial bodies. But, okay, that's a. That's a legal point there. Right. But that has been guiding how we, you know, how are we going to consider moving forward with this thought of commercial space and private space actors and what protections can states offer to big investments that happen in space if states can't claim jurisdiction over whatever is being developed and built? And, you know, so the discussions are happening about how, you know, how you deal with that and so forth. The very creative things are being thought of and whatnot. But that is an area that, you know, maybe we need to. We need to rethink. And so, you know, I think slowly, in the. On the margins, you know, people are, you know, it's like, what needs to be rethought here? There's. Oh, there's always the question, though, is, is the geopolitical climate correct and right to do something like that? You know, so everyone's like, well, maybe we'll just, you know, wait right now. Maybe we'll work with what we got.

[Rod Pyle]

Kick that can down the road.

[Isaac Arthur]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, and at the time that this was done in 1967, there was kind of this increasing interest in, I guess you'd call it direct military applications of space. There were designs in both Soviet Union and the United States for orbital weapons. We were looking at how you could arm space stations of the future, which, in fact, the Soviets actually did put a Gatling gun on one of their space stations as an experiment. But Even before that, US had launched a fission reactor into orbit in 1962. And we had the fishbowl experiments like Starfish prime, where we just said, hey, let's see what happens if you detonate a nuclear device in orbit. How bad can be? Oh, it's very bad for electrical systems. And there are plans on both sides of the Atlantic to detonate nuclear weapons on the moon just to show that we can and scare the reds and vice versa. So that certainly made it a timely thing. Isaac.

[Rick Janet]

So we were touching a moment on resource management for the moon and asteroids, and that's A, that's a topic that needs to get solved at some point. But again, maybe the climate's not right to make those decisions. Space traffic and space debris though, that's very much today. What, what are they looking at for that right now? What sort of agreements seem to be acceptable to everyone? What kind of framework is that looking like?

[Isaac Arthur]

Yeah, so I would say it's very much in its nascent phase right now. It is, it is just coming to bear. So space traffic management, definitely. So I will say this is an area that I'm rather proud of because our, our delegation got called out by name, the National Space Society by one of the official member state delegations for the work that we submitted on space trav traffic management, which was a great thing to see and I think important to show to our NSS membership that yeah, we are really having a, an impact here. But the discussions are very much, very much in their infancy. They're talking about, you know, how do we protect things, how do we have coordination, what type of, you know, information sharing, those types of basic tenets that get, you know, discussed in these, these types of things and that it's, you know, it's something that everyone should be, you know, at the table and it should be transparent with all, with all groups. So it's that kind of level of discussion right now, I think. But you know, they do want to, you know, it's one of those things that they, they want to get ahead of and start having discussions. So there are things in place. There are group, there are, I don't know if they're official groups yet that are doing that. I think there are actually on space traffic management. So it is, it's, it's being discussed but it's in its infancy, I would say.

[Rick Janet]

Is that more or less the case for the more long range aspects like asteroid mining, moon mining and ISRU for you know, if Artemis or some other project gets a moon base going.

[Isaac Arthur]

So with the isru, there is actually a document and you can find it online on the unusual website which are the principles for Space Resource Utilization which is starting, you know, is putting together a set of, you know, tenets and best practices to, to, you know, start to guide that conversation. And it was taken, it was actually a, an, an important conversation that was happening at the second subcommittee meeting, the legal subcommittee meeting that was I think second quarter 2025 when that happened. And it was, you know, it was an amazing thing to see. Again, there's, you know, there's the Peaceful Purposes piece that's there there's information sharing, which is an important part of it. The role of science and how that plays out is something that is, that is there, in other words, are there exclusion zones that are specific for science? Or, you know, how does that, how does science and the commercial activities work together? They're thinking through those, those aspects and so forth. But again, these are, these are being put together as sort of non binding, as you say, principles that, you know, the idea is ultimately like all of these things, these would be put, you know, they're non binding principles, they become best practices. Then ultimately they would potentially move into what could be considered, what would consider be a global treaty or so forth. So it's a amazing time to see that, you know, these things are seriously being discussed. Also coordinating lunar activities. There is something called the Action Team for Lunar Activities Consultation, which I had the, had the honor of seeing that how that was being put together and how the, the people that were the brains behind that maneuvered that fantastic, fantastic work to see that happen in a global level. And now there is this Action Team which all, as far as I can tell, all member states are participating in it. There are two co chairs, one is from Romania, the other is from Pakistan. They represent basically ARTEMIS and ilrs. So they're there together having these discussions and coordinating the future of, of what, you know, of humanity going to the moon, what it would look like. So I think those two things are probably going to be the most important and long lasting things that come out of that come out of copious in the near future.

[Rod Pyle]

All right, let's go to our last break and we'll be right back.

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[Rod Pyle]

So you mentioned artemis, which is the American Lunar effort, and the framework of agreements surrounding that and we have, I think, somewhere in the mid-50s in terms of how many nations have signed on now. And then the ilrs, which is the International Lunar Research Station, which is effectively China and Russia, in that order at this point, because Russia's budget has subtracted quite a bit over the years for space. But I'm wondering, so these are the two initiatives between east and west to get back to the moon. We're all our eyes on to see who does this earliest for whatever that might matter. Is that an active topic of discussion in the sessions you attend? And they do come up.

[Isaac Arthur]

They do come up. And I think they more or less come up as delegations will say that we have recently signed on to the artifice accords, as in their, what is called the general exchange of views, which is kind of just talking about what they've been doing, that is what, what their state has been doing that's aligned with the committee. And you'll have others coming up. Yeah, we have joined ILRS and that kind of stuff that is discussed. Something I will mention that recently I was, my, my came to my attention was there's actually a third option. It's coming out of the Hague Institute for Global justice and it's called the Washington Compact, which is being, it's being led out of the, the Institute. And it's, the idea is that they, they want commercial actors and private actors to be signing on to this and be signing on to this compact, which is very much a reflection of the Outer Space Treaty. And you know, how you would, you know how you would move forward ethically and peacefully in, in developing outer space. I'm very excited to see how that, that moves forward in all of, in all of these discussions.

[Rick Janet]

So I think that definitely can be. When we look at who is doing what on the moon, who's getting ready to do stuff on the moon with exclusion zones, you've got a lot of private actors that are looking to test products, to test the new rover, test the method of oxidizing, getting some oxygen out of the rock. What does that actually look like right now in terms of who owns what and what's going to be permitted for both private actors, you know, your SpaceX Blue origins, and then for individual nations or groups of nations.

[Isaac Arthur]

Well, it is an interesting, I think, I think this is still trying to be figured out, but the, the main problem, the Outer Space Treaty limits, you can't, you know, no ownership. So a state can't come down, plant a flag and say, I own this square kilometer. So, but then you Know, the way you're gonna, you know, how do you move forward in this situation? How does a private actor move forward in a situation like this when it's just like, well, so I go there and since the state doesn't own it, then who protects my interests and so forth. And it's just, you know, by definition, it's the, the Wild West. And so people are, so the discussions are, well, how do we, you know, how do we work around this? One workaround is this, you know, there's something, there is, there is something called an exclusion zone that's allowed for in the Outer Space Treaty, which is when I have something that's operating there, then you should have due regard for, you know, coming next to it or trying to disturb the operations or the scientific research, whatever it is that that member state is doing. So that's the kind of hook that, that people are looking at as to how you, you, you know, you get around these, these issues. So the idea is, all right, well, I can put my, I can put my sensor system down here. And then I say, all right, well, you know, that's, you know, I now, you know, I now control that area and it's an exclusion zone, so you shouldn't come near me kind of thing. But how big is the exclusion zone and how close you can get and all of those things? I don't know if that's fully, you know, fully delimited and there's a lot of leeway in there and so forth. So I think this is, these are exactly the types of things, the types of discussions that are happening. So, you know, what do we do with this? And that's what the Action Team and Lunar Activities Consultation will do together with other, other subcommittee entities in, in copious that are, that are looking at space resource utilization and space sustainability and these types of, these types of things. But it's not by no means a solid, a solid problem and, you know, a, you know, how does someone make a decision that they're going to invest or how does someone make a decision that they're going to ensure a mission when none of these legal frameworks are in place to ensure, you know, anything at the moment. So, but because the technology is so close and we're starting to recognize that, that you and USA and Kopius realize that these are the conversations that need to be happening now so that we can get ahead of this.

[Rod Pyle]

So when I first heard observer status, and this is many, many years ago, not knowing much about it, the image that flashed in my head was you know, a bunch of guys sitting up in the bleachers eating popcorn while these things were, were debated, which is not the case. So can you talk a little bit about what influence and recent contributions we might have made?

[Isaac Arthur]

Sure. So actually this is a great lead in. If you go to the NSS website, nss.org nss.org under About NSS, you'll see international Policy. And clicking on that brings you to our National Space Society library of international Space policy. And you can see all the work that we've been recently doing. I think we have everything up there that we've done in 2025 and that will be, you know, as we'll, we'll start to get the earlier work on there as well. But we have so the types of things first, you know, you'll see things called the General Exchange of Views, which is just here's, here's who we are, here's our influence in the areas that we do. Here's what we want to do, here's how we want to help the delegates. So that's, that's, we talk about those types of things. We also talk about our wonderful education programs and our workforce development programs and things like ISDC and you know, things like this wonderful podcast this Week in Space. And also Isaac Arthur's work as well gets talked about in there. So, but also we, you know, we, we have our work on space traffic management, legal challenges and so forth, and the benefit sharing of space development. We have, you'll see work in there. Quick shout out to Grant Hendrickson, recent joiner of the Policy committee. Sorry, of the International Committee, but he is the chair of the policy and it's been great working with him as he's been helping us develop many of these concepts and ideas. We also have, we also make presentations. So we have presentations on things like deorbiting large space objects and the legal challenges that are behind those types of things. I want to give a quick shout out to Paul Wonderall who has been leading those discussions and he's our representative who is NSS member who's in Germany actually. And things about NSS's opinions of dark and quiet skies and how we can have a sustainable path forward and a long term strategy for, for astronomy and how they work together with commercial space. So yeah, we've been touching many, many different topics. We also have, we've also been, we had a great presentation that one of our members, Danica Vallone, who actually joined us in person in February at the Science and Technology subcommittee where she talked about Healthcare innovations and in both space and remote environments. So, yeah, we've, we basically take advantage of the, the large amount of knowledge and information that NSS members have, work closely with our, our policy committee and we present information that is relevant to the agenda items set by the, by the member states.

[Rod Pyle]

So maybe you could discuss a little bit the role of these UN offices in global launch and regulation. I know we're struggling quite a bit with trying to streamline regulations here in the U.S. but then there's, there's global stuff that has to be concerned. And you mentioned something to me about regulation sandbox, which sounds like a very cool idea. How does that work?

[Isaac Arthur]

Yeah, so now I first learned of this at isdc. One of the NSS sponsors had given a great presentation at ISDC talking about this thing called a regulation sandbox. And it is basically the idea here is that you take it say, say you have a technology area or you, you have a particular area with a lot of commercial potential, but the regulations might not be up to promoting that particular, that particular thing, whatever it, whatever it may be. So this has been, I think it's been demonstrated in Europe and different, other, other countries where the idea is that you, you kind of say, all right, this particular area, we're going to set aside the existing regulations and allow them to operate under this new set of regulations for a limited amount of time and see what happens. Right, that's, that's, that's basically what it is. I know, Yeah, I know of several different examples including, I believe even China has done this with, with special economic zones that they've created in certain cities can have certain rules and they can see how it, you know, see how it goes. So the discussions basically came out of, it's like, well, can something like that work for, you know, things like global treaties and global regulations? It's an interesting thought and I think it'll be, you know, interesting to see what, what may come out of that. Not even sure what one would do. Maybe we consider, it's like, well, okay, this particular patch of the moon, we're going to relax some of these, some of these regulations and just kind of see what happens for the next few years. Or maybe this island in the Pacific or something along those lines that are in international waters. We see what, we see what happens. Not sure how it would go forward, but it was, it was a very interesting concept that you could potentially, you know, that you could actually agree to deregulate an area for a, you know, for a limited amount of time and just, you Know, try it out. And, you know, we can see that there are areas in, in space, it's, you know, in space launch and ISRU and so forth that, you know, might benefit from something, something like this. So we'll see.

[Rick Janet]

Well, we mentioned lawyers and regulations and earlier we're talking about how it's kind of the Wild west right now because there is no rule for what you could do on the moon, for instance. And there's always that future vision in science fiction. You've got your Star Trek kind of semi utopian setup and you got something a little bit more dystopian like the Expanse. We have the asteroid miners. And then of course, maybe a very good one for the occasion, Babylon 5, which was kind of like the UN in space. What is our preferred vision of the.

[Isaac Arthur]

Future is a Star Trek.

[Rick Janet]

Is IT Expanse, Babylon 5, something completely else.

[Isaac Arthur]

So, so you're asking what, you know, way I think see things. So.

[Rick Janet]

Or the UN for that matter.

[Isaac Arthur]

Or the, the UN. Well, you know, the, the UN's vision is what the member states make it to be, which is an interesting, you know, it's an interesting thing. And it's, you know, it's this idea. Well, the UN is all about conversation. It is, let's have everyone at the table, let's make sure that they continue to discuss things and they're there no matter what's happening in the background. And, you know, I hope that that's kind of the way things are going to move forward. I mean, I think things are going to grow organically and I think there's going to be a little bit of each that is going on just because that's the way that's, that's, there's a reason why there is all these different views is because we each have these different views. And it's going to start out, you know, there'll be certain things that are tried. You know, we'll, we'll have, we'll have our initial colonies and so forth, and things will, certain things will happen. And so if we can all kind of, we can use history as a guide that we hope we can learn from. But, you know, I, I do hope that moving forward, the United nations continues to be that group. Well, or there is a group hope, but the United nations is it right now. So there is that group where these conversations continue. And then whatever settlements form as we move forward, they will have a voice as they continue to develop. And, you know, we, we continue to have that guide towards peaceful uses of outer space. We know human nature. We know, there's going to be, there's going to be pitfalls and all of that kind of stuff. We know things aren't going to go rosily, stuff's going to happen. I think we're going to be very, we tend to be reactionary in a lot of our laws and our legal frameworks. So things weren't, you know, maybe will not be pushed to the forefront until something really happens to push it to the forefront. But hopefully we'll be when certain things happen, you know, when, when that first, you know, when, when there's that first bar fight in space or you know, there's that first mugging or there's that first something gets stolen in space, hopefully we can, you know, we pull out and we say, you know, we're able to look at, it's like, all right, well you know, the UN copious there were guidelines that were put in place for this. So let's see what they have to say here. And maybe we should move these more towards treaties and so forth. So that's, those are my quick thoughts on that. On a very deep question.

[Rod Pyle]

I'd like to see a televised reality TV show bar fight inside a crew Dragon capsule. That would be interesting because there's nowhere to go. My last question, yeah, my last question for you is I think I understand why space enthusiast, we all understand why space enthusiasts should care about what happens with these organizations and their offices and the involvement the NSS has because, you know, we're one of the public voices that's there but for the general public. Do you have a comment on how this affects them and why they ought to care?

[Isaac Arthur]

So well, when we say why, why the general public should care is because these are discussions, these are discussions that are happening. They're happening at a very high level. But it's agreements ultimately going to lead to agreements that member states are going to take back and that they're going to create laws around these, these particular things. Now one, we're seeing an initial part of this and it's kind of happened and certain, certain space actors, private space actors have come up and said, well, you know, I can go to this place and I don't have to worry about any laws or anything like that, right? It's like, well, no, actually there are actually international laws that govern how you're going to behave when you do certain things. I mean, so that's, that's basically, you know, those are, those are cutting edge examples. But as, you know, as space development moves more into the public, as in more and More entrepreneurs are taking this on, which they are, we know they are small business and entrepreneurs are looking at, you know, how do we, how do we mine asteroids, how do we utilize these resources, all of these, you know, all of this kinds of stuff in the background. There are these, there are these laws that are there and I mean there's definitely, each state has their own laws that you know, maybe they're vaguely familiar with, but they know that they're going to get hurt. You know, they're going to get their hand slapped if suddenly they disobeyed the FAA or suddenly something, you know, there are particular laws that they've, they've overreached and same thing's going to happen on the international scale. So they need to be, you need to be abreast, you need to be aware that these things exist. And I know my legal friends will say the sooner that a startup is aware that these frameworks are there and they, they should know about them, the less painful it's going to be when, when the time comes that they're faced, faced with them. So right now it seems a little bit abstract, but more and more it's, it's becoming into the realm of people's, you know, on people's radars and in people's, in people's minds.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, this has been a treat and I want to thank you for enlightening not just the audience but me because this is something I wanted to know more about as well. And I want to thank everybody, and especially you Rick, for joining us today for episode 171, which I like to call what's a Unusa? Because for a long time I didn't know. Rick, where should we set our navigation guidance system? Surndu with you on the Internet.

[Isaac Arthur]

So yeah, definitely. I'm the co founder, executive director of Expanding Frontiers. So please check us out at www. Expandingfrontiers.org. also have a look at the great work that the international committee is doing at the NSS. That's nss.org and look for the international policy work.

[Rod Pyle]

Okay. And Isaac, where can we find you dominating the entire spectrum of YouTube.

[Rick Janet]

So you can find me by just searching my name and Science and Futurism with Isaac Arthur. We have new episodes every Thursday and usually a second episode most weeks too.

[Rod Pyle]

And I just have to say I keep track of your episodes obviously and these are something I might be able to turn out. Once a year you come up with these really deep dives in brain hurting topics and I got nothing but admiration for your work because it's out of this world, as we like to say. And of course you can always find me at pilebooks.com [e-mail] and not just you can find me there. Go find me there. Remember to drop us a line at Twistwit tv. That's TWI us At Twit tv, we love getting your comments, suggestions and ideas. And now that I have Isaac on board for a week or two, I'll get him to answer a couple of them too. New episodes publish every Friday on your favorite podcaster, so make sure to subscribe. Tell your friends to give us reviews. We'll take whatever you like, but five stars or thumbs or whatever you got would be would be great. And don't forget we're counting on you to join Club Twit this year. Besides supporting this show, which is of course my favorite, you'll help keep the network on the air and operating. An appreciable percentage of the operating budget for the Twit network now comes from Club Twit. So stand up and be counted. It's only $10 a month and you get this show without ads. All shows without ads and other special stuff. You can get nowhere else. Thanks everybody, it's been a treat and I will see you again soon. Take care of. Bye bye.

[Mark Turner]

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