This Week in Space 182: The Dream is Alive

Summary

This Week in Space 182: The Dream is Alive

Date: October 17, 2025
Host: Rod Pyle
Co-Host: Tarek Malik
Guest: Terry Hart (Former NASA Astronaut, Professor at Lehigh University)

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Episode Overview

This episode, titled “The Dream is Alive,” explores challenges and hopes in modern space exploration, current affairs at NASA, and the storied career of shuttle astronaut Terry Hart—who made major contributions to in-orbit servicing and was part of the iconic IMAX documentary, "The Dream is Alive." Rod and Tarek are joined by Hart to dig into space policy shifts, NASA layoffs, Orion capsule developments, and memories from the early era of shuttle flight. The show balances recent space news with a deep, engaging conversation on the evolution of crewed spaceflight and lessons for the future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

[02:31] Greetings & Introduction

• Rod Pyle and Tarek Malik introduce the episode, joking about the title’s IMAX connection, and share the show’s aim: to talk with astronaut Terry Hart, a pioneer in space shuttle experiments and in-orbit servicing, and to analyze breaking news in commercial and government spaceflight.

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[04:38] Headline News

1. Jared Isaacman’s NASA Administrator Prospects ([05:33])

• Jared Isaacman, previously removed as a NASA chief nominee, is reportedly back in consideration.
• Tarek explains Isaacman’s unique background as a payments entrepreneur and private astronaut, highlighting his “vision for what NASA could be—not just a rubber stamp for the administration.” ([06:01])
• Discussion of the significance: “This is encouraging news... they're actually trying to find a leader before the turn of the year.” (Tarek Malik, [08:49])
• Potential bias toward SpaceX? Both Rod and Tarek agree Isaacman’s track record suggests level-headed leadership (“I think he would take a... level-headed look at where we are, where we need to be, and how to get there.” —Tarek Malik, [09:21])

2. Lockheed’s Orion Without SLS ([11:02])

• Lockheed Martin is exploring how Orion can fly on rockets other than SLS, potentially to save costs and boost reusability.
• “This is a change in approach from classic aerospace companies… They build vehicles as one offs.” (Tarek, [12:37])
• Lockheed sees an evolving market, possibly including commercial destinations; opening Orion to multiple boosters could open new business.
• Comparison is made to SpaceX’s frequent Dragon flights: “Looks like SpaceX has flown various iterations of Dragon about 60 times.” (Rod, [15:42])

3. JPL Layoffs and NASA Budget Cuts ([16:20])

• Rod relates the “downright funeral" mood as JPL sheds another 550 people, about 11% of workforce, totaling a 22-28% reduction overall.
• Tarek highlights “the tagline, the whole legacy of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory... 'dare mighty things’” ([19:27]) and wonders if NASA’s unique innovation culture can persist amid cuts and government shutdown.
• Discussion of leadership turnover, with speculation about former director Laurie Leshin’s departure possibly linked to coming layoffs ([21:02]).
• Rod shares, “These losses are permanent. These folks can't come back.” ([22:17])

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[25:59] Featured Guest Interview: Astronaut Terry Hart

Terry Hart’s Journey to Space ([26:06])

• Hart recalls his “right place, right time” trajectory:
  “I was... at Bell Labs... flew fighters... hired by NASA, first group, 1978. Six years at NASA, back to Bell Labs for satellites and later teaching at Lehigh.” ([26:35])
• His path was never planned:
  “When I was a young lad, the word astronaut didn’t exist yet... I was just in the right place at the right time.” ([29:06])
• On being selected:
  “‘You’re from Bell Labs, huh?’... Bell Labs were instrumental in the Apollo program. I walked into the selection interview... They had such high regard for those people.” ([32:53])

[38:42] Pioneering Filming in Space: Shooting IMAX for “The Dream is Alive”

• Hart describes training and challenges of using the massive 70mm IMAX camera in space:
  “They were really nervous... not all these amateurs taking this film in space… The first time I triggered the camera, it spun this way and I spun that way.” ([38:48])
• Shooting in weightlessness made some things easier:
  “One thing we found was easier to do in space... in weightless, the bag was much easier to handle.” ([39:26])
• On Walter Cronkite’s iconic narration:
  “Even for me, my generation growing up, he was a real role model in journalism.” ([43:13])
• Side note: Cronkite was shortlisted to fly as a journalist in space before the civilian program was cancelled. ([43:33])

[46:56] STS-41C: First Shuttle Satellite Repair and In-Orbit Servicing

• Hart outlines the landmark mission:
  • First rendezvous of Shuttle program.
  • Deployed the Long Duration Exposure Facility.
  • Repaired the Solar Max satellite after a harrowing series of failed docking and recovery attempts, extensive teamwork with ground control, and a nail-biting second try after fuel constraints.
  • “We pulled it off, you know, so it was quite a nice accomplishment.” ([51:02])

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[53:17] Reflections on Shuttle Tragedy, Risk & Lessons

• On Challenger accident:
  “Five good friends lost that day. And Dick Scoby, our pilot, that was his first mission as commander… We always thought it’d be some bolt out of the blue... What did happen, should have been avoided.” (Terry Hart, [57:12])
• On risk management:
  “You need leadership at the top that constantly reinforces the quality and safety... It's not an airline. It's much more dangerous.” ([58:40])
• Rod adds context about shuttle complexity, public expectations, and financial constraints versus Apollo era ([60:01]).

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[63:35] Today's NASA: Culture, Private Partners, and New Missions

• Hart sees “root risk” as the same, due to physics, but hopes NASA’s safety culture will persist through privatization:
  • “NASA needs to continue its focus... on things that are hard... Then hand them over... as soon as someone can perfect the business model.” ([65:13])

[66:21] Astronaut Superstition: Shuttle Mission Numbering

• Story of STS-41C once being “STS-13," scheduled for launch and landing on Friday the 13th, leading NASA to change naming conventions and the crew to make light-hearted commemorative mugs featuring a black cat with a 13. ([68:47])

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[71:08] Risk in Deep Space: Acceptable Loss and Decision Making

• Acceptable risk is contextual—airlines vs. 1960s exploration:
  • “It certainly should involve thoughtful people... it's a hard decision. As long as we're exploring, it's going to go on—once we figure out the moon, it'll be Mars.” ([72:28])

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[73:04] Educating the Next Generation

• Hart explains his efforts at Lehigh to launch a new interdisciplinary Aerospace Master’s program, combining mechanical, electrical, and systems engineering—open to non-engineering undergrads, but “you do have to pass differential equations.” ([74:47])
• “The industry is bright and growing and lively, and there's a demand for engineers that have the skills to help that business move along.” ([73:04])
• Rod asks about a book; Hart says, “My wife refers to my students as my oxygen... Every time I start a new course it's like writing a book.” ([75:32])

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[76:23] Would He Go Back to Space?

• “Maybe there's a scientific experiment in geriatrics I could participate in... but I think space is for the younger crowd here.” ([76:51])

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[77:11] New Jersey's Hidden Legacy in Aerospace

• Hart and Tarek celebrate New Jersey’s outsized, under-appreciated role in space, from Bell Labs’ Telstar to astronauts like Buzz Aldrin.
  • “It was a wonderful heritage from all the engineering people that were in that part of New Jersey...” (Terry Hart, [78:41])

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[79:44] The Space Beehive!

• Hart confirms his shuttle flight flew a beehive experiment:
  • “We had 3,000 some honeybees on board with us...” ([79:44])
  • The bees adapted to weightlessness better than the ground control group, producing perfect honeycombs after several disorganized days.

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[81:11] Shuttle Life: Roominess and Manufacturing Futures

• Rod is surprised by the shuttle’s limited habitable volume.
• Hart: “Once you're in space, five is very comfortable... It's a wonderful place to work when you're weightless... I think a lot more people will be doing it in the future.” ([81:31])

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[82:47] Shaping the Future

• Hart remains optimistic: “We have a great generation coming.” ([82:58])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Isaacman's NASA bid:
  "Every time I go to the diner and I buy my food with a Shift4 Payments device, I’m contributing to his billionaire lifestyle." —Tarek Malik, [06:01]

• On the IMAX camera in space:
  “The first time I triggered the camera, it spun this way and I spun that way.” —Terry Hart, [38:48]

• On Challenger:
  “Five good friends lost that day... what did happen, though, should have been avoided... It’s not an airline. It’s much more dangerous.” —Terry Hart, [57:12]

• On NASA’s purpose:
  “NASA needs to continue its focus because it always has to do the things that are hard, the things that there’s no business model for yet.” —Terry Hart, [65:13]

• On educational mission:
  “My wife refers to my students as my oxygen... I dedicate everything, all my time.” —Terry Hart, [75:32]

• On future generations:
  “The kids are just great these days, Rod. They're really wonderful kids we get coming... I think we have a great generation coming.” —Terry Hart, [82:47]

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Resources & Where to Learn More

• Lehigh Aerospace Program: aerospace.lehigh.com
• Terry Hart’s Lehigh profile: search at lehigh.edu
• Rod Pyle: pilebooks.com
• Tarek Malik: space.com, [@TarekJMalik]
• Podcast Feedback: [e-mail]

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Closing Comments

Rod and Tarek thank Terry Hart for his time, wit, and pioneering perspective. For aspiring explorers and future engineers, the episode is a treasure trove of insider history, advice on risk and leadership, and inspiration for space’s next chapter.

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[Selected Timestamps]

• 02:31 — Episode intro and title banter
• 05:33 — Isaacman’s NASA administrator saga
• 11:02 — Lockheed’s Orion reusability plans
• 16:20 — JPL Layoffs explained
• 26:06 — Hart’s biography and path to NASA
• 38:42 — IMAX in orbit: behind the scenes
• 46:56 — STS-41C: Satellite rescue drama
• 53:17 — Challenger reflections and safety culture
• 66:21 — Stories behind shuttle numbering and superstition
• 73:04 — Future of aerospace education
• 76:51 — Space beehive experiment details
• 82:47 — Optimism for the next generation

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Transcript

[Terry Hart]

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[Rod Pyle]

Today's show is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This episode is brought to you by Cohesity. For security and IT professionals, resilience is not just a feature, it's a movement. Cohesity makes sure you're ready for the midnight alerts and morning reviews. With Cohesity, you can secure and protect your company's entire data estate with a single platform, reduce your risk from threat actors and quickly respond and recover from destructive cyber attacks, strengthening your company's resilience. That's why Cohesity is trusted by 70% of the Global 500. Learn [e-mail] Resilience Everywhere Coming up on.

[Tarek Malik]

This Week in Space, Jared Isaacman was out as NASA chief, but maybe he's back in Lockheed Martin is thinking about plans to launch Orion on different rockets. So so long sls. And we're gonna talk to astronaut Terry Hart, who flew on STS 41C, a mission that pioneered long duration experiments in space and in flight servicing. Check it out.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Podcasts you love from people you trust.

[Rod Pyle]

This is this Week in space, episode number 182, recorded on October 17, 2025. The dream is Alive hello and welcome to another episode of this Week in Space, the the Dream Is Alive edition. I'm Rod Pyle, Editor Chief, Badass Magazine, and as always, I'm with my preferred pal Tarek Malik, Editor in chief@sp space.com hello Rod.

[Tarek Malik]

Are we going to get sued for that title from imax. Is that what's going to. They're going to come after us?

[Rod Pyle]

No, because I was personal friends with Graham Ferguson for maybe an hour in my life, started the company, which means absolutely nothing. But what does mean something is that this week we're going to be joined by former astronaut and current college professor and program runner, Professor Terry Hart, who.

[Tarek Malik]

Flew on was STS 41C in 1984.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah. So shuttle astronaut and a pioneer of IMAX shoots on space shuttles, which in itself is an interesting story. But before we get to that story, please don't forget, do us a solid. Make sure to, like, subscribe and the other things you can do for podcasts to show the world that you love us because we're lonely, insecure people and we thrive on that kind of thing. And now a space joke from Biron.

[Tarek Malik]

Aman beer in. Yes.

[Rod Pyle]

Hey, Tarek.

[Tarek Malik]

Hey, Rod.

[Rod Pyle]

Why don't Astro. Why don't scientists trust atoms in space?

[Tarek Malik]

I don't know. Why not?

[Rod Pyle]

Because they make up everything in the universe. And I've heard that some people want to scatter our electrons with us joke time in this show. But you can help by sending us your best, worst or most indifferent space joke. That's Twiswit tv and we'll appreciate it to the very end of time. And now onward to. Are you ready, Tar?

[Tarek Malik]

Okay, hold on. Okay, I'm gonna try something, everybody. It may not work.

[Rod Pyle]

Okay, onward to headline news.

[Tarek Malik]

Headline, headline news. Did I get it?

[Rod Pyle]

I don't know. We'll see when we get the hate man. Finally. Groupies for you at last.

[Terry Hart]

You've been waiting for years.

[Rod Pyle]

Cut.

[Tarek Malik]

Okay, we're gonna see. We're gonna see if I got. I'm trying to. Trying to nail it because my sister finally explained the lag problem to me and so now I understand it. So I had to. I'm on my end. It was on point.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah. But for whatever reason, when people are listening to it later, they say there is an appreciable lag.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, because I say it in those. Those ones when I hear it. And like by the time my part gets to John, I guess. Yeah. So. Yeah, because it's just like if we were talking to Mars.

[Rod Pyle]

All right? And this is so important. So let's. Let's get onto our headlines.

[Tarek Malik]

I see what I'm talking about.

[Rod Pyle]

Hey, Jared may be back in the game. This is a shocker. Jared Isaacman, who at one point was Trump's nominee for. For NASA administrator and then rather famously was. Had that yanked from him. And Jared on his part fell with great grace and was very, what's the word I'm looking for. Graceful in his departure from that potential slot is apparently now classy back on the list.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

How does that work? This has never happened before that.

[Tarek Malik]

I saw the first report of this, I think it was from Bloomberg on like Friday night. So like after we recorded our last episode I was like a dinner was like, you know, in the can there's a little blurb from Bloomberg knows it says Jared Isaacman meeting with Trump meeting with Sean Duffy in talks for NASA administrator. And it was just like what, you know, so it is a bit of a, of a head turner because as you say, Jared Isaacman say what you will, you know, very, very level headed person, very accomplished entrepreneur. Every time I go to the diner and I buy my, my, my food with a shift 4 payments device, I'm kind of contributing to I guess his billionaire, billionaire lifestyle. But that's where he made his, his, his billions. And, and he has flown in space twice on two week long missions with SpaceX that he has financed himself in a very classy way as fundraisers for cancer, pediatric cancer research. And, and it's, I think that this is probably a very, I mean I was surprised by the news but it's like a welcome turn that they're actively looking for someone that has like a vision of what like NASA could be. Not just someone that would be maybe more of a rubber stamp for the administration, you know, overall.

[Rod Pyle]

Oh, like who for instance?

[Tarek Malik]

Well, never mind. So, so, so it was very interesting to see and what, what I had seen is I'd seen follow up reports with Space Policy Online, Marsha Smith. They're very, very talented reporter who did get confirmation from NASA that, that he, that Isaacman had actually been speaking with Sean Duffy, the, the current, what are they called, interim acting, acting NASA administrator and then apparently with the Trump administration as well to come back. And what it tells you is two things. Number one, you know, they kind of, it was a bit of a knee jerk to cast them aside after going through all of the process for being confirmed because he had met with the Senate and all of that. And then also, you know, it just shows that they're finally trying to find some direction because like right now things feel like they're on fire at NASA at least from the outside from like the, the, the layoffs that we're going to get to the stuff that's going on at a lot of the agencies right now and the cancellations that are, you know, proposed by the budget, the, the, the, the 2026 fiscal budget request, but really seem like they're being put in action now. You know, who knows what's going on with the Juno mission by the way, because that mission was supposed to end last week and we haven't heard anything about it anyway. But this is, this is encouraging news that they're actually trying to find a leader before the turn of the year.

[Rod Pyle]

You know, I guess the only potential downside I, I, I see and, and I note potential because there's no indication of this at all. But you know, would Jared be more partial to continuing to push for starship as a human landing system for the moon, which isn't turning out like anybody had hoped. It may not have been that great an idea in the first place, as opposed to really putting, putting the gas on at say blue origin to get.

[Tarek Malik]

Oh, I, I don't think, I do not think that Jared, if selected and confirmed as NASA administrator, would, would say, you know what, I love SpaceX and Space X is the best, so we're only going to do SpaceX. I think he would take a look from what he had said in his Senate hearing about taking that, I don't want to say agnostic, but taking that like all that level headed look at, like what are we, where are we at right now? Where do we need to be right? And then how do we get there? I think that he would be able to figure that out just as he's been wildly successful in both his business life, his professional flying life that he does because he has like the largest private air force on the planet or something like that. You know, I mean everything strikes me as someone that gets things done in a way that is beneficial to where it's being done at. And I think that he could probably figure all of that out. Now if, let's say he gets confirmed tomorrow, like you and I are recording this, the episode goes out and all of our listeners wake up tomorrow to find out that Jared Isaacman is now the head of NASA. You know, it's a very different NASA that he'd be getting handed than, you know, in the summer of 2025, in May, when he was first meeting with the Senate, right where they've lost a massive amount of people like their facilities and missions that are on the cusp of being shut down. What you can do with that, I think is the question right now. And like having someone in charge to say, no, you can't keep firing these people will at least staunch whatever hemorrhaging is going on there right now because it's hard from the outside to understand what's going on.

[Rod Pyle]

So, yeah, it's pretty brutal. And speaking of executions of a sort, TATA sls, Lockheed Martin is said to be looking at how to fly the Orion capsule, which it builds on rockets other than the sls and to leverage therefore its reusability for missions other than lunar stuff and some reusability could cut costs by up to 50%.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, this is really interesting actually, I should point out, by the way, while I mentioned Bloomberg News for our last story about Jared Isaacman, I think Reuters was the core source for that. So I should let people know because I know that we're still [e-mail] on our story about that, but this one comes from Ars Technica and I think it was from. Was it Stephen Clark or was it Eric Berger? It was Eric Berger from those show. Yeah. So yeah, this was fun because when we were at the Artemis 2 standups, which I've talked about a couple of times, they noted that some of the avionics and stuff that, you know, they're re flying from Artemis 1 on Artemis 2 and they're hoping at least they had said during the press briefing to gradually scale up what they're able to reuse on Orion over time just to lower the costs. Because that's been one of the big criticisms by the government and the House and the OMB to NASA is that everything is just too expensive. Which by the way, spoiler alert, sls, yes, it's like a bajillion dollar rocket right now.

[Rod Pyle]

So although I have to say this, this feels a little bit like the whole conversation 15 years ago about oh, we'll recycle our space shuttle engines and save money and it's done anything.

[Tarek Malik]

But yeah, yeah, well, because you only have X amount of space shuttle engines, you know, and now they're just going to pitch them into the sea. That's a whole other thing. Don't get me started on that. But, but what is interesting is that this is a change in approach from the classic aerospace companies. They build vehicles as one offs, you use them one time and then that's the end of it. They have seen the success that SpaceX has been having with their dragons. I think that their dragons have flown, including the cargo missions, on numbers on par with the space shuttle problem. They're getting close. They're getting close. I'd have to go back and double check how many they've flown in terms of like the pace per year. And so, so they've seen that they see what the need is going to be. And I think honestly like Lockheed is looking beyond just the Artemis program with Orion. You know, they may not have anything fixed yet, but if SLS is only going to fly how many times? Once a year, every year when it's operational, you know, if that. And there might be other folks that need a different way to get to space or another destination that we talk about. In the past we've had, you know, vast and other companies on the show talking about commercial destinations. They might need to go somewhere and not have that rocket. So preparing their vehicle to be booster agnostic at least so that it has a different option to get on to get to orbit is very prudent. Plus they're building a new space or new rocket anyway along with Boeing with their Vulcan rocket, you know, and having a crew rated vehicle for that could open some avenues of business, you know, in addition to giving, making it more affordable for NASA to use that, that maybe they weren't initially thinking about because we've seen like we just want. Jared Isaacman. The man has bought two flights with I think at least two more from SpaceX private flights. And SpaceX has flown a few other private ones as well by this point. They could, they could look for that business eventually, you know, and, and try to find that too if they can get this to work and have some more options so that they're not locked to sls. So that will be very interesting to see. And it also brings to mind a pivotal speech that we got from Mike Pence about like if one company can't do it, they'll find a way by any means necessary to get to the moon back in, what was that? 2011, something like that. 2011, 2028, 19 or something.

[Rod Pyle]

So still a whole different NASA then?

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tarek Malik]

And so, so it just, it does show a bit more flexible thinking about what their spacecraft, what other types of use cases could you find for it over time and how can you make it more affordable over and over again instead of just taking the deal and saying this is what it costs. And I think that that'll be very interesting to see because it'll be a service now and not a product. And that comes with a lot of other obligations, but also maybe other opportunities for your vehicle.

[Rod Pyle]

You know, there's a joke in here somewhere about competing with Starliner and I have quotes around the word competing, but I won't go there. Looks like SpaceX has flown various iterations Dragon about 60 times. Just, just so you know.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, so almost half the 130.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah.

[Tarek Malik]

In, in, in what is it, in four years? Is it in five years? In five years.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, no, that's how long they've been flying crews. But if you include the cargo runs, it was prior to that.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

But still, you know, it's a lot.

[Tarek Malik]

It took 30. It took 30 years to fly 135 missions for NASA, for the space shuttle.

[Rod Pyle]

Just for the shuttle. Yeah, yeah. And woe to Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Yeah. And it's the only field center at this point that I have any direct view into. But the place is downright funeral as they watch yet another 550 people be escorted, escorted out the door with their file boxes by JPL security. Because that's how they do it. So that's another 11% of the remaining workforce, which puts us down by somewhere between 22 and 28% total.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, very close to 30%.

[Rod Pyle]

And according to some folks there, they feel that they'll basically be able to fly out the missions they already have in space, maybe complete a few more like Dragonfly, and that's kind of the end of the pipeline at this current level of funding and reduction in force. Now that said, they've had reductions in forces before and then bulk back up as missions allowed, but this is the largest one that I can remember since I've been tracking them, which is a long time.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

And the most judgment call here, the most ham handed and kind of random because, you know, as, as Alan Stern said when he was on here for flight, for missions that are out there doing their thing, they're paid for. These are tax dollars spent. They're out there running a mission is a lot cheaper than building or launching a mission. And it's just a total head scratcher. Now admittedly, JPL stuff tends to outlive its warranty and it can get long and expensive. Look at Voyager, it's not very expensive anymore, but it's been going for 45 years. Ish. So, you know, there may be a point at which you do start turning off some things, but when they're, you know, let's, let's look at for instance, the Mars rovers. I haven't heard anything about them being directly threatened, but it can't be far away if we continue on the trajectory we are and they're still doing good work. Yeah. And if you shut those down. Yeah, we got nothing going on. When the Chinese make their next landing and go over and grab our, we at least want to have the cameras on so we can see their Drone come and pick up the samples that Perseverance drilled and take Perseverance pocket.

[Tarek Malik]

Is that what you're saying?

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, kind of sort of.

[Tarek Malik]

This is, it is really sad. And I think this happened on Monday if memory serves, as we're recording this on a Friday. Tuesday. Yeah. So, and this, this was one that Space.com did, did cover. We've got a lot of, a lot of history covering jpl just as I think Rod, you used to work there like as well. So you've got a lot of friends there too. A lot of friends of the show are at JPL and our hearts are with those folks for sure. But 550 people, that's 11% right, is what you said there, roughly. And so the big question in our.

[Rod Pyle]

Minds is, oh, excuse me, that does not include the contractors that were like myself, who were allowed to just have their contracts run out and not be renewed, which is another way of firing people is just not one you can point a finger at.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, yeah. And the, the, the question in my mind, and I think you alluded to this is, you know, the whole tagline, the whole legacy of, of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena is that they dare mighty things. Right. I think we've had friend folks from JPL talking about that on, on the show here with us about how they're able to, to kind of do all of that. How they can land a car, not one, but two cars, nuclear powered cars on Mars, you know, doing all of these crazy things for years upon years at a time. And if they can still do that with these cuts that they're doing, because it, from the outside it feels like it must be impossible to try to get anything working and together because you don't know what's going to happen in the near future. And that just sounds like nerve wracking to be able to get through to say the least. So, you know, hopefully we get some clarity. But this is all going on in the middle of a government shutdown. We're in week three right now as we're recording this. And so it's really hard to understand like where the end games are for all of that, but it does seem like this was separate. And I have one question for you, Rod, and maybe, you know, you might have some insight. But you know, when Laurie Leshin, the former director at JPL left, you know, I, I'm wondering, is it because she was told to make these cuts then and said no, do you think that that could be a case, you know, for that or, or is this just Another example of, you know, they're just trying to, to make NASA, I guess, feel it, to try to cut, cut, cut people where they can cut people.

[Rod Pyle]

There is some scuttlebutt about that. But I had also heard that she, perhaps a slight variation of I'm not going to do it, just didn't want to oversee that. She said, okay, it's time to go. So I don't know. And the gentleman that took her place had the unenviable job of coming in, having to execute or orchestrate and execute such cuts. Yeah, but you know, somebody has to do with the labs to survive. And then of course there's, you know, the Caltech role is playing the intermediary. But yeah, it's just bad, bad mojo all around. And you know, it's worth reminding folks when you work at jpl, you're not being paid the highest retail rate for anything. I wasn't. And the other people there I know aren't. Some people make pretty good living. But it's nothing compared to what you'd get. You know, like people have left JPL and gone to Apple and Amazon and other places where you get shares and you get bonuses and you get all this stuff and you go from making, you know, 150 to $250,000 a year with no bonus structure or anything into like the millions. So they're not there for the money. They're there because they love it and they're the best at what they do. And these losses are permanent. These folks can't come back.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah. All right, don't expect, don't expect the, the famed JPL Halloween Pumpkin Contest this year. You know, we're not going to see that, so.

[Rod Pyle]

All right, but let's pivot to a more positive note. We will be back here with TJ Hart, Terry Hart, former astronaut, current university professor and all around great guy. So hang in there. We'll be right back. Hey everybody, Leo laporte here and I'm going to bug you one more time to join Club twit. If you're not already a member, I want to encourage you to support what we do here at Twit. You know, 25% of our operating costs comes from membership in the club. That's a huge portion and it's growing all the time. That means we can do more, we can have more fun. You get a lot of benefits, ad free versions of all the shows. You get access to the Club Twit discord and special programming like the keynotes from Apple and Google and Microsoft and others that we don't stream otherwise in public. Please join the club. If you haven't done it yet, we'd love to have you find out more at TWIT TV Club Twit and thank you so much.

[Terry Hart]

Morning Zoe. Got donuts. Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage? Well I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you teach me so Dana oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful.

[Tarek Malik]

Iphone yet and has the ultimate pro came camera system.

[Terry Hart]

Wow impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Rod Pyle]

Nice.

[Terry Hart]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[Rod Pyle]

T Mobile is the best place to.

[Terry Hart]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.

[Rod Pyle]

Us with eligible traded in any condition.

[Terry Hart]

So what are we having for lunch? Dude, my work here is done.

[Tarek Malik]

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[Rod Pyle]

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[Terry Hart]

So when I ask, what is Odoo? What comes to mind? Well, Odoo is a bit of everything. Odoo is a suite of business management software that some people say is like fertilizer because of the way it promotes growth. But you know, some people also say Odoo is like a magic beanstalk because it grows with your company and is also magically affordable. But then again, you could look at Odoo in terms of how its individual software programs are a lot like building blocks. I mean, whatever your business needs, manufacturing, accounting, HR programs, you can build a custom software suite that's perfect for your company. So what is Odoo? Well, I guess Odoo is a bit of everything. Odoo is a fertilizer, magic beanstalk, building blocks for business. Yeah, that's it. Which means that Odoo is exactly what every business needs. Learn more and sign up [e-mail] that's o d o o dot com.

[Rod Pyle]

And we are back with Terry Hart, as promised. Terry, thank you for joining us today. Really appreciate it.

[Terry Hart]

Great to be with you, Rod. Thanks.

[Rod Pyle]

And although I'll go into this more detail later, I feel like I first met you in 1982 when the dream is Alive came out. Ah, a long standing favorite. But unfortunately that was a brief one way relationship there. But you've had a multifaceted career. So I thought rather than me rattling off the usual resume, maybe you could kind of tell us your trajectory from the point that you graduated high school forward because you've done an awful lot of really fascinating things.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, I really have been in the. In the right place at the right time and very fortunate. Yeah. So I was, I'm a Pittsburgher. I grew up in the south hills, went to school to Mount Lebanon, off to Lehigh. You know, graduated from Lehigh in the same department I'm teaching in right now, Mechanical engineering, you know, way back in 68 and then hired on with Bell Laboratories in New Jersey. We were working on the anti ballistic missile system at the Times Safeguard and they sent me up to MIT for a master's. Then I finished that in nine months. Enlisted in the Air Force, flew fighters for four years on active duty, another 17 years on the National Guard, back to Bell Labs, worked in power and cellular and eventually was hired here by NASA. I was still, you know, flying with the National Guard on the weekend. So I was in that first group, the 35 new guys, 1978 that they brought in and then six years in NASA, back to Bell Labs as the head of engineering for the satellite division. The telstar Skynet satellites AT&T spun that off. 96, 97. I became the president in the Laurel Skynet. I worked for Bernard Schwartz, a wonderful man who headed Laurel back then. And then retired from that in 2004. Yeah, 2006. And then I started teaching at Lehigh. So I'm coming up on 20 years of teaching and I love it.

[Tarek Malik]

I think, I think that Terry just said that for all those Terminator fans out there that we have him to thank for Skynet and our AI driven future. Is that what that is?

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. People often come up to me about, I guess there was a kind of niche movie about title Skynet or something for the bad guy. Yeah, we thought of ourselves as a good guy. So Skynet, you know, I have a.

[Tarek Malik]

Question that I ask all of our guests, Terry. And it's just kind of what the path to space looks like. Because it's interesting that it's been different for everyone that we have on. Some folks, you know, it's been a lifelong interest or a draw or a passion where they were just trying to find a way in the door whatever way they could. Other folks found out about it, like, even after graduate school, you know, once they're in the workforce and they're like, oh, there's stuff up in space. That's great. I'm gonna go there, you know. What was your path like to space? Was it something that was always there, that interest, or did you find it through the work and your. Your experience with the National Guard?

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah.

[Terry Hart]

Well. Well, Tariq, it was totally unplanned. When I was a young lad, the word astronaut didn't exist yet. And I remember I was 11 years old when Sputnik launched. And growing up in Pittsburgh, as I said earlier, and it was in the newspaper that it was going to be visible a week or two after launch. I think it was right after sunset. So all the neighbors and I were on the street of our home there, and sure enough, it came tumbling. It was blinking, it was tumbling. And everyone was kind of aghast at the time. The Russians had taken control of outer space and we were going to become their minions or whatever. But that, that, you know, I fell in love with the whole idea of, you know, exploring and on. And I kind of wanted to fly, but never really planned on being an astronaut. But I was just in the right place at the right time with my Bell Labs engineering experience in flying fighters with the New Jersey Guard, you know, on the weekends. I was kind of in a nice, nice position there in 1978 when, when NASA hired that first class.

[Tarek Malik]

Oh, wow. That is good timing. Good timing.

[Rod Pyle]

That's pretty cool. What, what kind of. What was your plan?

[Terry Hart]

The airplanes I flew?

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah. Well, I started off with the F106. We were the first lieutenants in the Air Force to fly that Delta Wing fighter. And it was a wonderful airplane. And I had a deployment up in Maine, so I was escorting Russian bombers down to Cuba. That was our mission, the TU95s, going back and forth. And then I got off active duty at the end of 72, I guess it was, and joined the National Guard, where I flew both with the New Jersey Guard, F106s. Then when I was with NASA, I actually flew with a Texas Guard and they're out of Houston ones and F4s, you know. So I had quite a nice Air Force career as well as my time at NASA.

[Tarek Malik]

Of course, I feel obligated as a fellow. What do we call ourselves? New Jerseyans? Is that what we are? To ask if there's something in the water? Because there is. There are so many astronauts like yourself from New Jersey. I mean, just where I am. We've got the Kelly Brothers from West Orange. We've got Buzz from Montclair. Yeah. And then like, it's like you throw a rock, you find a house where Washington slept and the hometown of an astronaut. I'm just curious if there's like a New Jersey club that was coming up while you were in, while you were at NASA there.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, I guess I would never made a connection. I've met some of those people, but they were all in different generations. I guess we New Jerseyans are kind of spread you across astronaut groups. But. But you know, Buzz, I last saw was back in 2017. I guess there's a collection of MIT graduate astronauts. I think it's up around 20 or something now. It's quite, quite large.

[Tarek Malik]

Wow.

[Terry Hart]

Last time I was at that group, Buzz was there back in 2017 and. But yeah, the collection of astronauts now, I'm not sure how. The association of Space Explorers has gotten pretty big now that's all the astronauts and cosmonauts and other people on it. Must be up around 500 members now or something.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, if it's not in the water, I think my hopes are getting dim. So often look elsewhere.

[Terry Hart]

You could run with me the lottery and buy a ticket on SpaceX there.

[Tarek Malik]

Oh, he's getting ahead. I have a question for you on that, but that's for later.

[Rod Pyle]

So Tarek and I often lament our inability to master higher mathematics that kept us from being the engineering geniuses we know we should have been. So of course, what we're most interested in is, is your spaceflight career. And could you tell us a little bit about how you sort of ramped up to that? I know you were in. In the guard and so forth, but that doesn't automatically equate to becoming an astronaut. That was something you did on your own.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, yeah. When I applied, I actually saw the advertisement NASA put out. Must have been early in 1977. They were saying we're getting ready to hire a new group of astronauts. They hadn't hired anybody since Apollo and And I looked at that and said, geez, you know, I got a background, I fly, and I'm an engineer, and I'll put an application. And I kind of thought I'd make the first cut. There were over 8,000 applicants. I thought I'd make the first cut. And I did. That was 200 and some that they tested done in Houston for an entire week. Like 20 weeks. I'm sorry. Yeah. 10 weeks over the summer of 77. And when I met the people that. Well, Sally Ride was one of the 20 in my particular week there, you know, and I meet all these people, test pilots with PhDs, and Sally. And it was really quite a group. No way they're going to pick me. And then they did. And I found one of the key things that I think helped me in that selection process was coming from Bell Laboratories, because Bell Labs, a lot of people don't remember, but they were instrumental in the Apollo program. Back in the very. When President Kennedy said, let's go, one of the first things NASA did is they turned to Bell Labs and they asked them for about 200 scientists and engineers that left New Jersey and went down to Washington and formed bellcom. And the bellcom organization was actually led by the president of Lehigh. When I was a student here at W. Deming Lewis. And NASA had such high regard for those people, and I didn't really appreciate it until I walked into the selection interview during my week down there in George Abbey and John Young and all these people were asking me questions, and I think it was George. It said, you're from Bell Labs, huh? Yeah. I thought, wow. So, yeah, talk about being lucky and being in the right place at the right time. But. So, yeah, but even at that, I still didn't think they were going to pick me. But it was such a. Well, I got the call from George that morning. It was quite a, you know, quite a nice surprise to be in that first group of shuttle astronauts.

[Tarek Malik]

He said, George Abbey and John Young, you know, not small names at all, Rod. Right.

[Rod Pyle]

I mean, as are the level of people that are in rooms we stroll into regularly.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah. Both just wonderful people. I mean, George and John, they're just great leaders and fun to work with.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, I'll note if you're ever writing about NASA history when you're plowing back into things in the space age and before you see bellcom come up all the time, because they were commissioned to do one study after another after another, and these were inexpensive. So obviously the regard for their work was very high. Speaking of High regard. We're going to go to a break with a sponsor for which we have high regard, and then we'll be right back. So don't go anywhere. Hey, everybody, it's Leo Laporte. You know about MacBreak weekly, right? You don't? Oh, if you're a Macintosh fan or you just want to keep up what's going on with Apple, this is the show for you. Every Tuesday, Andy Inocco, Alex Lindsey, Jason Snell and I get together and talk about the week's Apple news. It's an easy subscription. Just go to your favorite podcast client and search for Mac Break Weekly or visit our website, Twitt TV mbw. You don't want to miss a week of Mac Break Weekly.

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[Tarek Malik]

Well, Terry, you know, I think Rod let the cat out of the bag when he was talking about his first exposure, I guess to your career through the Dream Is Alive. Because that was actually one of my first. Actually, I guess it was. I, I found out after the fact when I, when I learned that, that you were coming on the show that that was my first introduction to you as well. Because that was A, A. I think I was 15 and I don't want to date myself at all, but I think I have. When I saw that, I saw that, I saw that film at Space Camp in Huntsville and it was like one of those, like those core moments, you know, where you realize that something that you're interested in is not just like an abstract concept, but it's, it's a whole industry and career path unto itself, which along with many other things you mentioned being in the right place at the right time, you know, led to is very similar, you know, to finding a spot at Space.com, which has been great for the last quarter century. But I'm just kind of curious how, you know, how you approached becoming, you know, being an astronaut from an engineer status. You know, you apply, you get in, what that process was like for you, and then what it's like when they said, hey, it's great, now you're going to ride a rocket. Here's a IMAX camera you're going to.

[Rod Pyle]

Which, by the way, is a robot army.

[Tarek Malik]

There's a. There's a photo of it. There's a photo of it. John. John, Line. Yeah, Line. What is this, 37? There it is. So.

[Terry Hart]

Wow.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

And as I recall, because the film, 70 millimeter, those things torqued up when they were. When they started, right?

[Terry Hart]

Yep, yep. Yeah, we were. We were the first crew to fly the IMAX camera. So we worked very closely with. Graham Ferguson was the lead developer, the head of IMAX at that time, up in Toronto. So we had two reasons to go Toronto, that and the mechanical arm, the rms. But we had fun training with them, but it was very clear that they were really nervous, not all these amateurs taking this. This film in space. You know, it turned out it was kind of hard on the ground actually, to handle that camera because it was so big and heavy and you had to change the film out. The film was in big canisters like this, sealed, of course, and you had to. Had to. You had to take the can, you had to go inside a black bag, you know, and that was, like, really hard to do on the ground because the camera was pretty heavy. But you had to take you blindly. And then you had to take one roll out of the can and. And put it in the camera and put the one you just shot in the can and seal it so it didn't get exposed, you know, so it was tricky. And if you mess it up, you'd blow the whole six minutes of film, I think, was. Was on each one. So they were really nervous about it. But we trained, and that was one thing we found out that was easier to do in space. Both things are tougher, but that one was easier because you're weightless. Of course, the bag was much easier to handle. And actually, Rod is right. One thing that did kind of surprise us a little bit is that the first time I triggered the camera, you hold it and there's a pistol grip and you turn the trigger and this thing spins up, you know, So I hit the trigger, and it spun this way and I spun that way. So I learned I had to get my feet stabilized somewhere before I hit the trigger on the camera, Otherwise the first 10 seconds of the film would be blurred. But we had fun. And we shot about 20 minutes, I guess, of film. And then the two missions that followed us shot likewise, about 20 minutes each. And that was enough for them to put together the feature.

[Rod Pyle]

The dream is so not to get too sidetracked on this because we're here to talk about you and not that film. But I think what was so transformational for a lot of us is seeing that. I mean, besides being the first. First large aspect ratio motion picture. I mean, you can't go to an IMAX film without having some kind of emotional involvement. But just the. It was beautifully done work you guys did was sensational. But having Walter Cronkite as a narrator, and for those of us who grew up during the space race, Walter Cronkite was the guy, right?

[Terry Hart]

Very special.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, he really was. And. And his almost loving. I mean, you could tell how. How engaged he was with the subject matter, his almost loving handling of the. The voiceover for the film. But I think. And this is what makes it almost quaint today, it was such an optimistic look at the program. This is very early days with the shuttle. And, you know, they didn't say specifically, okay, we're going to fly once a week or anything, but he said, frequent access to space, it's reusable, we'll be able to deliver more stuff than we ever have before and all that. And the shuttle was a wonderful machine. It just didn't live up to those early predictions. But I watch that film now from time to time, and I guess it's almost a guilty pleasure because it was this era of great promise that we've only now started to come back into. Do you have any thoughts on that? Because that was really your. That was your era.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. About maybe three weeks after we got back from our mission, the film, the raw film that we shot was available, and our crew hopped in some T38s and we flew up to Fort Worth to the IMAX theater there. And they just had a special viewing for us of the film. We all sat there, we thought we were back in space again when that. It was the. There's a couple different kinds of imax, but this is the one that kind of wraps all the way around.

[Rod Pyle]

Omni. Yeah, yeah.

[Terry Hart]

Omnimax. Yeah. And. And we sat in those chairs, leaned back and we, you know, we felt like we were weightless again. You know, it was really dramatic. And then, of course, like you said, that was the easy part, putting the, the film, shooting the film, the, the people that put that feature together. And then, of course, Walter Cronkite, like you mentioned, there was a point in the film where I think after I captured the Solar max or whatever Mr. Cronkite says, and, and TJ captured the satellite or something like that.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Terry Hart]

My, I thought my mother was going to have a coronary because he was. Well, even for me, my generation growing up, he was, he was a real role model in journalism. And for my mother's generation in particular, it was very special. I have a little side story about Walter Cronkite, if you want to.

[Tarek Malik]

Oh, yes.

[Terry Hart]

Very shortly after I left NASA, I got a phone call and they asked me to be on a committee to select the first journalist to fly in space. And this was just at the beginning of the program where they were going to start looking at civilians going into space and all. So I met a couple times and there were editorial people, senior people in journalism, and I was the token astronaut. So NASA had asked us to pick five, you know, from the hundreds, maybe thousands, I can't remember how many, and he was among them. He was among the five. And unfortunately the program got canceled, of course, after Kristen McAuliffe was killed on the Challenger. But I think in all likelihood NASA would have picked him. He would have had a chance to.

[Rod Pyle]

Go, oh, yeah, well, he would have just knocked it out of the park. I just wanted to add, and you already kind of alluded to this, but I had the pleasure of meeting Graham Ferguson once and I was already completely in awe of his work. And I was kind of stumbling over my words and kind of half asking for a job and not quite getting around to it. But he was very kind and sympathetic to my plight of being tongue tied and just a real gentleman. And I thought the work that they did, especially in that era, I mean, these were not casual undertakings. IMAX was a really expensive format to shoot in. And even where you, you've seen the theaters, I'm sure where they have these platins of film, they're four feet across, and then the film has to fly up 40ft into a projector and come back down. The projector's water cooled so it doesn't burn these expensive prints. I mean, it's just. It was an insane format that I'm sure nobody misses today with, with true high definition video. But it was quite a reach at the time and a real accomplishment by those guys. Okay, Tarek, I'm sorry I jumped in on you.

[Tarek Malik]

That's all right. Well, you know, one of the things we wanted to talk about was the, the mission. Right. Terry's, Terry's flight in space in 1984, STS41C of which the most visual part, obviously a moving experience for Rod and I was, was seeing the mission as it debuted. But in, in, in the Dream is Alive, actually I have that on, on DVD and the, and the soundtrack, it's, it's amazing. So. But I know, right, But I think that a lot of folks, a lot of our listeners and a lot of young people now, the engineers that would design the missions of the future may not be familiar with, I think some of the. More, I want to say, milestone moments of that mission. So sts, just as a reminder for folks, folks, it was a mission in 1984. It deployed the Long Duration Exposure Facility and there was a repair of a satellite, the Solar Max satellite. And you were instrumental in both of those things. And on film. On film, yeah. So, you know, I want to ask kind of how you approach and train for that mission and where you see it as in terms of like the science that. An operational knowledge that came out of it. But if you can kind of give our listeners a synopsis kind of of what the mission like, the primary goals were and then we can start from there to talk about it.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah. At that time, this was the, we were the 11th flight of the program. So we had checked out the Man Maneuvering unit a couple flights before and we were ready to go. Now, almost two years of training for this because it was the first rendezvous. That was one of my duties. I was a rendezvous officer for Bob Crippen, our commander, of course, and Dick Scobie, our pilot. We were doing the first rendezvous of the program. We deployed the Long Duration Exposure Facility as a NASA Langley experiment, about as big as a school bus, actually. And it had a hundred and one hundred. And it had 85 trays on it. 150 scientists from all around the world contributed these experiments for micrometeorite collection and cosmic rays and all that stuff. It stayed up for six years and then Bonnie Dunbar captured it and brought it back. So that was day two. Then we were in the process of doing the rendezvous and we caught up the Solar Max, which had been launched in 1980 on a delta. Ironically, it was the first satellite that Goddard designed to be repaired by the shuttle. And about three months after it was on Orbit. It actually. Actually blew some fuses. It had a thermal hotspot in the attitude control system, and the fuses derated, basically, and they lost control of it. So it was spinning slowly, but spinning sort of pointed at the sun to keep its batteries charged. But for years it was waiting for us to get there in 1984, then. So the stage was set to do all that. And we decided to use the manmaneuvering unit that George Nelson, Pinky are Jim Van Hoft and Ox. So Pinky and Ox were our two spacewalkers. So they were outside, ready to go. We just finished the rendezvous. I had the arm ready to go, and Pinky was going to dock to the solar max, stop the rotation. And then I could grapple, because the grapple fixture was right underneath one of the solar panels. So it was kind of hard to get at if it was spinning. And we were all set for that to work. And Crippen did a beautiful job of bringing the Challenger in, like, real close. And Pinky flew over and he went to Doc and he bounced right off the satellite. And so what was that? You know, no one could figure out why the jaws didn't grab the pin on the satellite. So he did it again. I think he did it a third time. Each time he hit the satellite, he imparted energy on it. So now the satellite, instead of just spinning slowly, it's tumbling. So we were beside ourselves not knowing what happened there. So we. We didn't want to get dangerous. So we brought Pinky back into the payload bay. And I tried a couple times to get that fixture, but every time I was getting close, I would reach one of the limits of the arm. So it was a real mess. And Mission Control didn't have any ideas. So we backed away several miles behind the satellite, then parked in the same orbit for a day. And then, fortunately, the Goddard people had some control. They had some a program called B dot, which reacts the torquers against the Earth's magnetic field. And they managed to get the energy out of the spinning satellite, the tumbling satellite. And they were fortunate because the batteries were almost dead on it. And it stopped finally, and it was pointed roughly at the sun when it stopped. So the batteries recharged. And then we thought about what we had to do. We were really kind of low on fuel at that point, and Mission Control said, we'll take another shot at it, but you can't spend much of much fuel on this rendezvous because we got to save something to get home. So again, Crippen and Scoby did such a great job. They brought it back in again and now it's spinning slow enough that I could capture it with a mechanical arm. So when I had it on board, then Pinky and Ox went back out again the next day and did the repair work. So it was quite a good demonstration of how our training pays off so much between the crews and the mission control engineers and Goggles, water too there, you know, it was, everyone was involved. There were hundreds of people trying to, to make this work, you know, and we pulled it off, you know, so it was quite a nice accomplishment.

[Rod Pyle]

Wow, that really is an amazing achievement. We'll be right back after the short break, so go nowhere.

[Terry Hart]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts. Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage? Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you teach me so that. Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful.

[Tarek Malik]

Iphone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Terry Hart]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Rod Pyle]

Nice.

[Terry Hart]

Jeffrey, you heard them. T Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.

[Rod Pyle]

Apple US with eligible traded in any condition.

[Terry Hart]

So what are we having for lunch? Dude, my work here is done.

[Tarek Malik]

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[Tarek Malik]

Well that, I mean that, that is amazing, Terry. Should we be calling you T.J. by the way? We forgot to even ask at the start of this.

[Terry Hart]

Oh no, that's okay. I answered. Terry, TJ, Professor Hart, Dr. Hart, whatever. But yeah, I picked up that handle as they say it in the Air Force. You know, everyone has a nickname or whatever in the air call sign. In the Air Force. I picked up TJ and it's stuck at NASA.

[Rod Pyle]

I think Tarek, since we're not astronauts, we don't have the right.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, well, you know that my initials are also T.J. that's right. People would get confused. Right? That was better than Pinky, I suppose.

[Rod Pyle]

Move along, move along.

[Tarek Malik]

No, you know, that whole scenario that you described not only sounds like, like nail biting overall about what to do with the satellite nearby, but it seems that when combined with the deployment of the long duration exposure facility, which really had all of the experiments like you mentioned, about different materials and how they react to space, that really set up like the long duration, like living in space. What we've seen 25 years now with the International Space Station. But, but the, the solar Max part of it, you know, also adds that, that, that, that servicing requirement. One of the hallmarks, the selling points that Rod mentioned of the, of the shuttle. And I'm just very curious like how you see that those moments, I mean looking back now as, as really demonstrating that use case for having not just, you know, robots in space that are able to do things, but having people up there to, to conduct the science, to be able to troubleshoot issues and, and then ultimately because this repair was successful, show what life and living and maintenance in space would look like.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, yeah. I think it's a whole new industry for the future. These satellites are so expensive. Like take our geostationary satellites like our Telstars and all. They typically regene to life 12, 15 years. They don't have enough fuel left to maintain their orbital positions anymore. And yet usually 3/4 or maybe more of the transponders are still working. So if you can find an economic way to refuel those very expensive satellites and keep them going, that's a whole industry in itself. And Goddard does a lot of that. Frank Cepellini was the father of our, at Goddard. He was the father of our mission in the sense that he, he proposed the Solar Max rescue to Congress way back when. And even a few years ago, I think he still hadn't retired. Maybe he's not retired now, but he's still working satellite servicing. So we used to call it satellite repair. We don't want to do that because it's broader to think of as a servicing. Hubble, for example, I think we. If I'm not mistaken, there were four servicing visits after we deployed one to fix it. Of course, the major flaw in the mirror, they fixed, but they went back a couple more times and it wasn't repairing things, it was taking up new technology, new gyros and new instruments and putting them on the spacecraft. So once you have the main bus up there and it's working, if you can find economic ways to service them, that's well worth doing.

[Rod Pyle]

That's. It's an amazing story. Now, of course, we can't really avoid talking about it, but, you know, a certain generation or generations, a couple of generations, when you hear the name Challenger, of course, you get a little hitch in your throat because of that terrible accident. And I imagine, I mean, it's bad enough for, you know, those of us that were just watching the program from afar, but having been a part of the program, being a fellow astronaut, it's got to be tougher. And having flown on that spacecraft, I, I can't imagine how that must have struck when that happened to you. And of course, those people were your friends and your associates, you know, five.

[Terry Hart]

Five good friends lost that day. And Dick Scoby, of course, was our pilot on our mission. That was his first mission as a, as a commander.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah.

[Terry Hart]

You know, obviously a national tragedy. And yeah, I think those of us who were close to the program, I think most of us felt, you know, we're going to lose one someday. You know, we're not going to, to fly. The original shuttle manifest was supposed to be 500 missions. You know, the thought of having that kind of reliability and something that moves that fast with all that energy is a stretch, you know, so we figured. But we always kind of thought it would be some bolt out of the blue. You know, you'd have a turbine blade come off and there was no way to predict it or whatever that what did happen, though, you know, sadly, should have been avoided. And, and the same for Columbia. We should not have had any failures in the 138 missions or whatever it was that we flew the shuttle. And yeah, it's a tough situation. You need two things to Make a human space program as safe as you can make it. You need leadership at the top that constantly reinforces the quality and safety. And people like Chris Kraft and Gene Krantz and the legendary people at NASA, they did that. And it's not easy to do over a long period of time because there's a tendency, not so much during Apollo because there are so few missions, but during shuttle, when you start to get rolling, you think, well, this is an airline, right?

[Rod Pyle]

Right.

[Terry Hart]

It's not an airline. You know, it's much more. It's much more dangerous. And they understood that. And they keep their foot on the pedal in that way. And then you need the team, the teamwork in mission Control, but much bigger than that, the whole assembly of contractors and NASA oversight that have to work together as a team. And by team, I mean attention to detail, communication. You don't hide problems. If you make a mistake, you surface that so everyone can learn from it. That's the aviation culture in our country. You know, when, when a pilot makes a mistake, you tend to want to share that with your fellow pilots, so they don't make that mistake, you know, and that kind of culture is not easy to produce, you know, in an organization. But those two things, the leadership and the people that know how to listen to that and do the right thing, you can run. It's not going to be entirely safe, you know, because we're. We're talking about, I mean, a spacecraft's 100 times faster than a typical airplane, right? And the energy goes up with a square. There's 10,000 times more energy to get in space than there is to get airborne on an airplane. So just the physics of it's always going to have some level of danger. But I think the right management, team leadership, and the right teamwork, you can manage it safely.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, and I think just as a follow up to what you were saying, this was a big, complicated machine. This was not a single purpose, single use machine like the Apollo system. And NASA was proceeding on a grossly reduced budget at that point, way less than it was getting during the height of the Apollo mission. So on the one hand, you're trying to do something big and complex, and on the other hand, you're doing it on just a tiny percentage of what you had flowing in the mid-60s. And at the same time, I think the shock for a lot of people was, if you look back, the Apollo program, there weren't a lot of people around standing around saying, oh, it's really safe, no problem, you know, because it was risky. Every mission was incredibly risky. And they're very fortunate and of course by design that they didn't have any losses other than the Apollo 1 fire. But here came the shuttle. And I think there was a public perception, somewhat derived from the NASA outreach efforts, that this was routine, it was reliable, it was pretty safe. And I remember when I was going to ucla, I, I audited a couple of engineering classes, and one of them, at least one of the blocks, they were studying the turbines you mentioned on, on the shuttle, main engines. And the professor was saying, you know, these things spin up from zero to whatever it was, 70,000 RPMs like that, right? That's slinging a lot of metal around really fast. And you just got to realize that that blade isn't perfect. That's all it takes. And I thought, how can this ever work? So when you look at it in toto, I guess it's not surprising that we lost a couple. But again, as you said, probably shouldn't have happened. And it was as much an institutional involvement as it was a technological one, I guess, when you look at the whole picture. But I just wanted to get your take on that because it was such a seminal moment for so many of us. Tarek, over to you.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah, yeah, I'm very, It's a real heavy subject to follow up on, Rod.

[Rod Pyle]

Sorry. Why do you think I handed it off?

[Tarek Malik]

Well, you know, I, I'm very. One of the, one of the thoughts that, that comes to mind, though, like, I've been thinking about this a lot when I, I, I learned that, that you were interested in joining us, is to kind of see what you like, what your take is on, on kind of the current state of that risk assessment. Because we are now, I mean, very, you know, when you joined NASA as an astronaut, you know, the shuttle hadn't flown yet, but you knew there was a new vehicle coming, a new mission coming, if you will. Right. With a type of vehicle. And we're at a point now where there's, we just got this brand new astronaut class just last month, and they are coming in where NASA has a new vehicle flying and it's got a new mission going to the moon, hopefully next year. Right. With its own set of, of, of new risks and, and tantalizing new rewards and, and I'm curious about where you see that commonality about what, what is important with. You mentioned leadership and like right now NASA has an interim, you know, leader, like not even a permanent one as they approach this big milestone. Is the tone the same or do you see it as a wholly unique one just because it's a different generation, it's a different, a fully different mission. We're leaving orbit to go to the moon more. Are the root, is the root risk the same for the astronauts involved?

[Terry Hart]

I think the root risk is the same just because of the physics of it all. What the culture is inside of NASA right now, I don't know, I mean, I don't work there, but I think the people on the ground, they're very focused on what they're trying to do. And we're in the middle of this evolution that you two understand better than I do. I think we're moving from the big NASA programs where they build the rockets to SpaceX and Blue Origin. We're transitioning those kinds of programs to be more and more run by companies because they now have a revenue model, they have a business model that works. And that transition's gone pretty well. And I think with that, if we can carry that safety culture along, there's no reason that the so private corporations can't have the same because they also have a profit motive. They don't want to have any like the airlines. You don't want to have an accident because of the same thing in space here. But so I think hopefully those cultures will come along through this transition more to private world. And NASA needs to continue its focus because it always has to do the things that are hard, the things that there's no business model for yet. Developing new kinds of propulsion systems, nuclear power in space, helium 3 on the moon, or whatever future technologies that we're trying to develop. There's no business model for those now. So that's what NASA needs to do those things and then hand them over as soon as there's a chance that someone can perfect the business model and continue the process to companies like SpaceX, some Blue Origin.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, speaking of handing over, we're going to hand over to our very last break, so stay with us. We'll be right back.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Tarek Malik]

Tara, I just thought of a really silly question. I apologize if it's going to seem rudimentary, but we mentioned your mission. As you know, STS41C and for our Eagle eared listeners, they'll know that STS is space transportation system and they know that missions have numbers and that's great. But there was a time and during your, your, your, your flying period at NASA where NASA put like letters at the end and I'm just curious what the C stands for. If you could let our, our, our readers know or was it just a weird nomenclature thing that NASA did? Because they sure don't do it anymore.

[Terry Hart]

This is an interesting story. Okay, so we started off with STS 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. We were numbering the missions and then my mission was assigned, Bob Crippen, our commander and the five us all put together and started training. We were STS 13. So NASA didn't like that too much and ironically the manifest showed us, I think were launching on April 13, 1984, which happened to be a Friday.

[Tarek Malik]

Oh my gosh.

[Terry Hart]

So I think again there were never any discussions and meetings or anything about this. But all of a sudden the edict came down from headquarters that yeah, we're going to go to this other system. And I think what was the Last number was 7, 8, 9, 41A. Here's the system. So 4 meant 1984. So the, the missions that start with a 5 were 1985 and so forth. And then the one meant Cape Canaveral Kennedy Space center launch. A 2 would have been Vandenberg, which we never did. We were going to take military payloads or high inclination payloads, you know, out of, out of Vandenberg on the shuttle, you know, which, which never happened. And then the, then the ABC was to be the progressive. So there was a 41A and a 41 and 41C. So we were 41C. But it turned out that, that the two missions, well, one was canceled in front of us and then the other one was delayed. So we actually ended up being the 11th flight and we ended up launching on April 6th and they had it scheduled for one week. So we're going to land on April 12th, which was a Thursday. You see what's happening, right?

[Rod Pyle]

Carefully orchestrated.

[Terry Hart]

We needed one extra day because of the problem with Silver Max back, so we extended and we landed on Friday the 13th.

[Tarek Malik]

That's so strange.

[Terry Hart]

But we had, in the meantime, while else was going on, we couldn't help ourselves. I, I don't have my space shuttle mission cup here, but it's a cup like this with our. Our normal approved patch was on the front with our crew. And the one that went public on the back was the one that Dick Scobie made, and it was a black cat with a light bulb and a big 13 on it. Shuttle flag underneath the black cat.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah.

[Terry Hart]

So that one we couldn't go public with. You know, it was a lot of fun at that time. And then I think eventually, then they went back to the numbers again after Challenger was lost. You know, they went back to STS 25 or whatever at that point.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, so to kind of touch back on this, not so much the topic of superstition, but of risk, I'd like to know if, if, if you could tell us. You know, when you look back at things like Apollo 8, right, you're going out to the moon, you got this one service propulsion system engine to get you into lunar orbit. More critically, to get you out of lunar orbit. Because at that point, your whole free return trajectory thing is out the window. So, you know, this is a big risk point. And then you had, of course, you know, some of the more complicated landings. The Skylab repair, when you really look into it, was very risky. The things that, that Conrad and I think it was Kerwin were doing up there, that they didn't really tell mission control while they were doing some of it and other missions, and then just the design of the shuttle, you know, not having a true abort capability, at least not during, during the ascent phase. You know, how should a modern NASA and, you know, all organizations change, all organizations evolve? They sometimes become a little more rigid than they were in the early days. And in NASA's case, at least in the estimation of some of the people I've interviewed, they feel that a lot of decision making sort of been moving up the tree towards headquarters. So not pointing fingers, I'm just wondering how you feel about this idea of risk. You know, what's an exception, an acceptable level of risk. Now that we're getting ready to leave Earth orbit again, when you've got these long voyages home, is there any way to put some kind of a, A thought to that?

[Terry Hart]

I think it's difficult. I Mean, it's such a hard number to get a handle on, in a sense, but clearly it needs a discussion as to what's acceptable levels of risk. Look at the airline business today. If we have one airplane crash a year in this country, commercial, that's too many. So in space, of course, again, because of the physics, we're going to accept something more than that. During the 1960s, we're willing to accept a lot more because we were in a race against the Russians to get there. So it all depends on that. But it certainly should involve thoughtful people that have these leadership qualities that I was talking about earlier. And the people that are going to do it. You need to include them. And a lot of times the astronauts that might fly on that mission maybe aren't even hired yet. But there's the astronaut office there, of course, to represent the future missions and talk about what they think is a reasonable level. So it's a hard decision. It's a decision will go on and on. As long as we're exploring. It's going to go on. Once we figure out how to safely operate back and forth to the moon, it's going to be another question for Mars because it's going to be an order of magnitude more difficult. Again.

[Tarek Malik]

You know, I was very curious about looking ahead to the next, I guess, generation of engineers and scientists that are going to be that. And of course, like your current role at Lehigh, you're instrumental in shaping those minds and hopefully, I guess, their drives. You know, maybe there was an astronaut or seven coming out of the programs that you were there. And I was hoping that you can kind of walk us through the new programs that you've, you've stood up there. Before we started here, you were mentioning one that my daughter might be interested in, you know, that you had helped shape in the past. But I know that you've got some, some new stuff going on there.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, there's so much happening now, mostly on the space side, but also, also in aviation. There's so many good things happening. The industry is bright and growing and lively, and there's a demand, you know, for, for engineers that have the skills to help that business move along. And. Yeah, so for. So it's become strategic, you know, for Lehigh. So we started. We always had some level. I was in the same department, you know, 60 some years ago, graduated mechanical engineering. We had aerodynamics then. That's all we had. And now we've got, in our aerospace minor, we've got all the courses, propulsion and astrodynamics and flight Control and everything. All the courses you would need for, to enter as a bachelor's level. But we think usually students, especially if they want to do R and D in aerospace, you really need to get at least a master's to be competitive in the R and D hiring. So we just announced this past year and started this semester, a full blown graduate program for masters in aerospace, which is interdisciplinary. Actually, it's our mechanical engineering department hosting it, but it's electrical engineering, industrial systems engineering, machine materials physics department, environmental. They're all involved in the program to help us offer a broad selection of courses. So you don't even have to be like a mechanical engineer or aerospace engineer from undergraduate to start. You could be a physics major and you can come into this program and get a master's in aerospace engineering. So it's the future, I think, of education being adaptable to what's going on in industry to make sure the students are prepared for careers.

[Tarek Malik]

I'm asking for a friend, but do you have to have, do you have to have passed differential equations to apply for this master's program?

[Terry Hart]

Yes. Yes, you do.

[Rod Pyle]

Oh, no, I was gonna say Tarek. He's making it easier, but he's not making it easy for some kids. Sorry.

[Terry Hart]

Sorry.

[Tarek Malik]

Really, for like a hot minute, I, I just, I was really thinking that's something I could apply to then the way that you describe.

[Rod Pyle]

No, we need to go. We need to enroll in one of those, you know, soft programs like space Policy or something where we can just sit, there you go, have opinions instead of having to have actual correct answers. So, Terry, you know, you've been a professor for decades. You've now set up this new program. I'm feeling this slight vacuum for a book, either a text or some kind of a life experience book that would help illustrate these concepts for your students. Anything planned?

[Terry Hart]

Nothing planned. I'm fully immersed with my students. My wife refers to my students as my oxygen. I dedicate everything, all my time. And every time I start a new course, I've introduced maybe five new courses the last 20 years in propulsion and astrodynamics, spacecraft design, aircraft design. I've introduced all these. And every time you, you start a new course, it's like writing a book. You have to go out and find a good textbook, but we have to kind of put everything together in terms of your presentations and the projects for the students. It's about as much work as writing a book. So I think I'm out of time, but thank you for asking.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, I would be very curious I mean on 41C you had 168 hours in space over that week or so.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, exactly a week. I think almost exactly a week.

[Tarek Malik]

And, and you know, I'm, I'm curious if it left you like wanting more. You know, you mentioned Blue Origin and, and, and, and SpaceX and the like. They, they're offering at least Blue Origin, you know, has flown twice in the last two months. Would you want to go back? Is there something you didn't get to see from space? You know, Lehigh maybe or, or somewhere that you want to go back and take another look at?

[Terry Hart]

Now when I answer the calling, I mean maybe there's a scientific experiment in geriatrics or something, I could participate. But I still fly though not too much anymore, but I still fly with some partners in our twin engine Piper Navajo here in Allentown. But I think space is for the younger crowd here.

[Tarek Malik]

Well, and I had one other kind of question just about your career overall because you mentioned about starting at Bell Labs and like the space kind of connections that Bell had. I was, you know, I had the privilege of going down to the Holmdel site many years ago, you know, before I guess Nokia sold off a lot of the, the bits there. But I did see the horn that they, that they detected the, the big bang signal with the little green men.

[Terry Hart]

If you want got the Nobel Prize for that.

[Tarek Malik]

Yeah. And, and, and your, your work, you know, with, with, with Telstar and with Laurel. I mean it, it really kind of follows the, this, do I call it the specification rod of like our lives, you know, where we've, we like a lot of the underpinning technologies or the things that like that we rely on for space were pivotal parts of your career with you know, Bell Labs and the telecommunications. We all take that for granted. Now we're talking over the systems that you help pioneer it over your work. And then now, you know, in space we're seeing a lot of the fruits of those early demonstrations and those early tests and I'm just curious if the legacy that New Jersey has on space exploration is undersung in your, in your, in your opinion. Because I feel it is. I think that as a state we have had a bigger imprint on, on the industry overall. But I'm just curious your thoughts there.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, a lot. I mean you mentioned Holmdel, Crawford Hill was where the horn was there. So the early space work was done bouncing signals off a balloon. I think that was called Echo. And then they, and Hughes was instrumental too in the syncom, the early communication satellites. But we Built Telstar one at Murray Hill, New Jersey. And in fact, the one engineer was with me still. He was. He had done the batteries and the solar panels on Telstar 1. So name is Dean Maurer. He was one of our Bell Labs engineers even on Telstar four decades later. And it was a wonderful heritage from all the engineering people that were in that part of New Jersey. They're both central New Jersey and northern New Jersey. That got us started in telecom and space.

[Tarek Malik]

Telestar 1, everybody. Launched in 1962, the world's first active communication satellite. You are welcome from New Jersey there. Right.

[Rod Pyle]

And thank you very much, Terra, Whenever you're done, Tarek. So my last question, Terry, is I believe your flight was the one that took up the beehive, is that right?

[Terry Hart]

Yes, we had 3,000 some honeybees on board with us.

[Tarek Malik]

That sounds horrifying.

[Rod Pyle]

I'm sure they're well encased. But was there ever any conversation about what do we do if these things get loose?

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, we joked about it quite a bit. In fact, Pinky and Ox were in charge of inspecting them every day and we would take them out. There's some IMAX video, I think, of them. Yeah, it was interesting. They did better than the control group on the ground, which surprised us. But like terms of.

[Rod Pyle]

Of building the honeycomb.

[Terry Hart]

Exactly. Yeah. The honeycomb people weren't sure whether the shape of the honeycomb was gonna be the same way. It was like perfect. And the. They were all like us the first two or three days. They're like little disorganized what this weightless thing is all about. And then they got the hang of it and they did fine. You know, just like people just adjust. It is an adjustment. It takes two or three days to kind of get used to moving around when you're weightless.

[Rod Pyle]

That's interesting because if I recall correctly, spiderwebs did not have that kind of good fortune in zero G. Right?

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, I don't remember that after. After our mission, they tried some other things. Of course it is on the space station now. They do a lot, you know, there's a lot going on there. But that was a high school student from Tennessee, as I recall, that proposed that to NASA to do the bees.

[Tarek Malik]

Wow. Space honey.

[Rod Pyle]

Sorry, that wasn't my last question. My last question is, I had a chance to board a real honest to God shuttle once, briefly when it was in turnaround out in Lancaster area.

[Tarek Malik]

Lucky.

[Rod Pyle]

Yeah, it was. And I remember going on to the mid deck and thinking, this probably seems a lot larger when you're weightless, but it wasn't as big as people thought. I mean, most. That machine was payload bay and engines. And the space you guys had for a week or two up in orbit was actually pretty small.

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, it's. We do get in our way a little bit on training on the ground with five and with seven, you definitely get in your, in your way a little bit. Once you're in space, 05 is very comfortable. You don't bump into each other much at all because of the ability to use the full volume. But 7 does get a little crowded unless you have this. We used to have the space lab on board and you had more room back there for, for that many people. But it's just a wonderful place to work when you're weightless. And yeah, I think a lot more people will be doing in the future. We're going to find manufacturing starting up here. I think they're starting to get hints of scientific breakthroughs on the space station where the future for manufacturing things and weightlessness is going to be significant, I think.

[Rod Pyle]

Well, I like your idea about geriatric research in space. And you get my vote for going up, not because you're elderly, but because you've already had a mission and you're staying incredibly engaged. And, you know, for people who haven't tried it, higher education is not an easy thing. It can be very challenging. There's a lot more to deal with than just strutting around in front of the students. You have committee assignments and deans and provosts and fundraising and other social events. So it's, it's a whole world unto itself.

[Terry Hart]

So it's fun though. The kids, the kids are just great these days, Ron. They're really wonderful kids. We get coming to Lehigh and all across the country. I think we have a great generation coming.

[Rod Pyle]

See Tarek, he says the kids of today are great up and coming workers.

[Tarek Malik]

That means they have the right stuff. Right? See how I added the space thing?

[Rod Pyle]

Wow.

[Tarek Malik]

There you go.

[Rod Pyle]

Very clever. Well, I want to thank everybody, especially you, Terry, for joining us today for episode number 182, which we're calling the Dream is a Lie. Where can we learn more about your new graduate program?

[Terry Hart]

Well, you can go to aerospace.lehigh.com that's our front page, if I recall. Right. I hope I got that right. And there's lots of good stories in there about our students. We've got all kinds of. We have a rocket club, we have a spacecraft club, we have an airplane club. That all do, really. And these kids, they have great passion for what they do and it's fun to watch them and help them along.

[Rod Pyle]

Along. Great. Do you have a personal website?

[Terry Hart]

Yeah, it's on Lehigh. I guess if you go to Lehigh Edu and then search my name and I'll pop up there with. With the kind of work I'm doing right now, besides teaching a little bit of spacecraft trajectory optimization kind of problems.

[Tarek Malik]

He doesn't even have his own. He doesn't only have his own website. He's got a tick tock and Instagram. All the things that I heart aerospace. He's being modest, Terry. You're being modest, right? You can see all the awesome stuff there. So.

[Rod Pyle]

And speaking of awesome stuff, Tarek, how about you? Where do we find you?

[Tarek Malik]

Well, you can find [e-mail] as always on X and everywhere else at Tarek J Malik this weekend we don't have a lot of spacey things, so it's really nice. We've got some SpaceX stuff launches and I'll be watching those. But you can also find me on. On YouTube @spacetronplays playing video games about space.

[Terry Hart]

Space.

[Rod Pyle]

So. And we will have a dazzling new episode of this week in Space on your front page over the weekend. So don't undersell that.

[Tarek Malik]

That's right.

[Rod Pyle]

And of course you could always find me at pilebooks.com or@aster magazine.com please remember, you're free to drop us a line at Twist Twit tv. We always welcome your comments, suggestions and ideas and we answer each and every email with love and care. New episodes of this podcast publish every Friday in your favorite podcaster. So please make sure to subscribe, tell your friends and give us reviews. We'll take whatever denomination of thumbs up or stars or eyeballs or whatever it is they they give you to give us 5 of. But please give us those because we live and die by your reviews. And you can follow the Twittech Podcast Network it on Twitter and on Facebook @Twit TV on Instagram. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us today. It's been a real pleasure. And Terry, it's been great meeting you beyond the IMAX screen. So appreciate you coming in today.

[Terry Hart]

My pleasure. Thanks.

[Tarek Malik]

Thank you.

[Terry Hart]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts. Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage? Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you. Teach me Saldana. Oh, no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile. We'll get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful.

[Tarek Malik]

Iphone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Terry Hart]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Rod Pyle]

Nice.

[Terry Hart]

Jeffrey, you heard them. T Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 1717 Pro on.

[Rod Pyle]

Us with eligible traded in any condition.

[Terry Hart]

So what are we having for launch? Dude, my work here is done with.

[Tarek Malik]

24 month bill credit is on experience beyond for well qualified customers + tax and 35 device connection charge credit sending balance due to payoff earlier. Cancel Finance Agreement. IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs 1099.99 A new line minimum 100 plus a month plan without a pay plus taxes and fees required. Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Oaklove Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 2025 Visit t mobile.com.