Podcast Summary – This Week in Space 183: Lunar Lander Wanted! Apply Within
Date: October 24, 2025
Hosts: Rod Pyle (Editor-in-Chief, Ad Astra magazine), Tarek Malik (Space.com)
Guest: Mike Wall (Editor, Space.com)
Episode Overview
Main theme:
This episode dives deep into the current uncertainties around NASA’s lunar lander plans, especially regarding the Artemis 3 mission. The discussion explores the escalating political, commercial, and technical drama over who will actually deliver and land the next American astronauts on the Moon amid contract renegotiations, industry competition (SpaceX vs. Blue Origin), and government leadership turmoil. The episode also touches on other headline news in space policy, science, and exploration.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Shuttle Discovery Controversy – “Operation Shuttle Chop”
(05:03–12:36)
- Texas, led by Senators John Cornyn and Ted Cruz, is lobbying to have the Space Shuttle Discovery moved from the Smithsonian in D.C. to Houston.
- The Smithsonian is resisting, citing the cost ($120–$150 million), the lack of proper facilities in Houston, and the “irreparable damage” that moving Discovery would cause.
- The arguments are heated, with accusations of illegal lobbying and childish rhetoric between lawmakers and the Smithsonian.
- Both hosts are incredulous at the wasted energy and funding that could serve public needs.
“The latest chapter in this…is that the Smithsonian sent a letter to Congress saying, hey, look…Discovery is as close as it was when it landed. That's the whole point why it's in a hangar as if it roll off the tarmac. And it would cost, we think, up to $150 million…And all that’s going to do irreparable damage…”
—Tarek Malik (09:15)
2. Artemis 2 Progress & Government Shutdown Impacts
(12:36–14:59)
- Artemis 2 (next crewed Orion/SLS launch) is fully stacked—major milestone, but events celebrating this were canceled due to the government shutdown.
- Many Artemis workers are considered 'essential,' but it’s unclear if/when they’ll actually be paid amid broader NASA layoffs (about 21% workforce reduction scheduled).
- Artemis work is prioritized as “nationally essential,” a clear sign of its perceived geopolitical importance.
“So this is the first ship of the 21st century to take astronauts back to the moon…all fully assembled, getting ready for rollout now…But most or all of them are doing this work, not getting paid at all.”
—Tarek Malik (13:10)
3. State Funding for JPL?
(15:00–19:37)
- California state senator proposes state funding for JPL, which has suffered steep federal cuts.
- Hosts discuss the logistical and legal barriers to state money supporting federally-run centers, but find the idea heartening as a show of local support.
- JPL is currently described as a “morgue,” with highly specialized, long-serving staff being let go.
4. SpaceX’s Rocket Launch Cadence
(20:54–23:32)
- SpaceX achieves 139 launches in 2025, an unheard-of cadence; China is the only potential competitor.
- SpaceX has obtained permission for up to 200 launches annually from U.S. pads—preparing for even higher tempos, including Starship missions.
“This is an unheard of cadence of operations in rocket launching anywhere…Despite the antics of Mr. SpaceX himself, Elon Musk, this country is plowing along…Thank you, Gwynne Shotwell, for your service.”
—Rod Pyle (21:06)
5. Exoplanet Science—New “Super Earth” Found
(23:32–26:04)
- Discovery of GJ 251c, a potentially habitable super-Earth just 20 light years away; orbiting a red dwarf in Gemini.
- Scientists are optimistic about its potential for water and life, but key characteristics remain unknown.
6. THE MAIN EVENT: NASA's Lunar Lander (Artemis 3+) Mess
w/ Mike Wall
(28:37–77:38)
Background: Who Will Deliver Artemis 3’s Human Landing System?
- NASA’s acting administrator Sean Duffy signals the Artemis 3 lunar lander contract (originally awarded to SpaceX for Starship) may be re-opened for bid, citing schedule concerns (~2028 target).
- Duffy specifically name-drops Blue Origin as a candidate.
- Elon Musk responds publicly, criticizing Duffy and defending SpaceX's record.
- The issue is exacerbated by political pressure to “beat China to the Moon,” with China promising a crewed Moon landing by 2030.
“Just this week…the acting administrator for NASA, Sean Duffy, said that they plan to reopen the landing contract…SpaceX did not really like to hear that…Elon Musk did what we have seen him do before…broadsides against Duffy…”
—Mike Wall (33:42)
The Challenges of Lunar Landing—Why It’s So Hard
- The technical hurdles for SpaceX:
- Starship is still in development (hasn’t reached orbit, hasn’t demonstrated refueling, and has no finalized life support/landing legs).
- NASA’s doubts center on Starship’s requirement for complex orbital refueling—a task never before performed, possibly requiring 6–24 launches per mission, with boil-off losses and tight timelines.
- Blue Origin’s design:
- Potentially simpler, more traditional lander but is further behind. There’s no working test lander, and the timeline is far from assured.
- Blue Origin has the contract for Artemis 5+ and is supposed to do an uncrewed test flight first—date unclear.
“If you have to refuel Starship a dozen times to get it to the Moon, how do you refuel it if it’s in lunar orbit? …It’s a weird, complicated choreography.”
—Rod Pyle (41:38)
Political & Strategic Motivations (The “China Race”)
- The rush is largely political—current U.S. administration considers beating China to a crewed Moon mission vital for status, public messaging, and “symbolic” space dominance.
- Both public and military officials feel pressure to maintain U.S. leadership.
- There’s worry that compression of schedule will force tradeoffs in safety and quality, possibly undermining the “sustainable” lunar presence NASA claims to want.
“This is a big policy priority for the Trump administration, to beat China to the Moon. …what the U.S. has said it wants to do is bigger than that…it’s to actually get a meaningful and long-lasting human presence up and running near the lunar South Pole.”
—Mike Wall (46:51)
NASA Leadership Uncertainties—Is Jared Isaacman Coming In?
- Rumors abound: Jared Isaacman (billionaire entrepreneur, Inspiration4/Polaris Dawn astronaut) could become the next official NASA administrator.
- Isaacman is widely respected, seen as passionately pro-space, bipartisan, and able to navigate both private and public sectors.
- Duffy’s role as acting administrator + rumored plans to fold NASA under the Department of Transportation further muddy the waters.
“I mean he, I think he’d be a good choice for the job...He has a track record of knowing about space and caring deeply about it. ...he has the support of lots of people in the spaceflight community...”
—Mike Wall (69:47)
Broader Context: NASA’s Unique Challenges
- NASA’s shifting priorities through administrations (asteroid retrieval, Moon pivots, Constellation, Artemis) hamstring long-term progress; frequent changes from political leadership erode momentum.
- The budget is far less than in Apollo-era glory days: ~0.4% of federal budget now vs. >4% in the 1960s.
7. Look Ahead: Milestones & What to Watch Next
(75:51–77:38)
- The next version of Starship (V3) will attempt first orbital refueling next year—a crucial milestone for Artemis 3 feasibility.
- Landing system life support, surface operations, and integration remain major question marks.
- Future Artemis launches (beyond 3) are even more uncertain given current delays and the scale of the challenge.
“With each iteration of Starship…Elon Musk and SpaceX say each one’s going to be a lot better than the previous one...Orbital refueling is a big one and if they’re able to do that next year, then we can talk about these Moon missions with a little more confidence…”
—Mike Wall (75:51)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Starship Complexity:
“Now, in the case of Starship going to the moon, you have what is essentially a big cryogenic storage tank orbiting Earth… it's always been kind of a crazy complicated design…”
—Rod Pyle (36:10) -
On Artemis Program Realities:
“Each individual milestone should be celebrated with the enthusiasm it deserves, because yeah, we can’t take this stuff for granted at all.”
—Mike Wall (74:27) -
On NASA’s Institutional Whiplash:
“When people get mad at NASA for how slow they're moving, they should keep in mind that NASA gets jerked around like this all the time. ...these are the directions coming from the top, and they just have to react to it.”
—Mike Wall (61:05) -
On NASA Funding:
“During the height of the Apollo days, NASA got about four and a half percent of the federal budget. And now it's like 0.4% or something like that. And going down.”
—Mike Wall (62:08)
Important Segment Timestamps
| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Operation Shuttle Chop (Discovery debate) | 05:03–12:36 | | Artemis 2 stacking / Shutdown impact | 12:36–14:59 | | State funding for JPL | 15:00–19:37 | | SpaceX launch cadence & comparison | 20:54–23:32 | | Super-Earth discovery (exoplanet science) | 23:32–26:04 | | Mike Wall joins; Lander contract drama explained| 28:37–36:10 | | Starship vs. Blue Origin technical challenges | 36:10–43:09 | | Politics: Why the U.S. wants to beat China | 46:51–53:33 | | NASA leadership rumors (Isaacman) | 66:50–73:41 | | What’s next / Milestones to watch | 75:51–77:38 |
Tone & Style
- Conversational, irreverent, and frank; the hosts frequently insert nerdy humor and banter, but discussions are grounded in real industry knowledge and insider perspectives.
- Candid about both political and technical limitations; critical of waste, bureaucracy, and public misdirection.
- Passionate about space progress, but not naïve about government dysfunction.
Final Thoughts
Summary:
This episode is a must-listen for anyone tracking the real-world drama behind NASA’s return to the Moon. The show pulls back the curtain on monumental technical and political hurdles, offers context on why things are shifting so rapidly (hint: China and politics), and delivers sharp analysis on whether ambitious timelines are more hope or hype. If you want to know what’s actually happening with the U.S. lunar program—and why—this conversation is essential.
To keep up with the latest:
- Mike Wall: space.com
- Tarek Malik: space.com, TarekJMalik on social media
- Rod Pyle: pilebooks.com, adastramagazine.com