This Week in Space 195: Remembering Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia

Podcast: All TWiT.tv Shows (Audio)
Episode Title: Remembering Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia
Release Date: January 30, 2026
Hosts: Rod Pyle (Editor-in-Chief, Ad Astra Magazine), Tariq Malik (Editor-in-Chief, Space.com)
Guest: Jerry Griffin (Former Apollo Flight Director and NASA Center Director)

Episode Overview

This somber and reflective episode of "This Week in Space" honors the anniversaries of three pivotal and tragic events in NASA history: the Apollo 1 fire (1967), the space shuttle Challenger disaster (1986), and the Columbia accident (2003). Hosts Rod Pyle and Tariq Malik are joined by legendary NASA flight director Jerry Griffin, who shares personal memories and hard-won insights from his decades-long career, providing a human and historical perspective on both disaster and resilience at NASA.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. News Update: Artemis II Launch Delay

• [03:18–06:45] The episode opens with a brief update on the Artemis II mission.
  • NASA delayed fueling tests and launch due to sub-freezing temperatures at Kennedy Space Center.
  • Original launch window of February 6-7 is no longer possible; new attempts slated for February 8-11.
  • Ripple effects impact the timeline for Crew-12’s launch to the International Space Station.
  • Delays are attributed to weather, technical checks, and mission sequencing with upcoming crew flights.
• Notable Quote:
  • "They can't do the test. It has to be much warmer for them to be able to feel better about ensuring everything will go as they expect... That has a ripple effect." — Tariq Malik [04:41]

2. Introducing Jerry Griffin

• [08:01] Guest Jerry Griffin, age 91 and still active in recovery operations and space advocacy, reflects on his career:
  • Started as an Air Force pilot, then NASA flight controller in Gemini, later Apollo flight director, and director of Johnson Space Center.
  • Notes the importance of staying intellectually and personally engaged:
  • "I'm still convinced that the thing that has kept me going is mental. It's more mental than it is physical. I think you've got to keep your brain engaged." — Jerry Griffin [73:21]

3. Remembrance Month and the Weight of History

• [09:11] January is a month of remembrance at NASA:
  • Apollo 1 fire (1/27/1967)
  • Challenger disaster (1/28/1986)
  • Columbia disaster (2/1/2003)
• Griffin was present for Apollo 1 and involved with NASA through all three accidents.
• "This is the month where we acknowledge the Challenger disaster, which happened in 1986, before that, the Apollo 1 fire... I couldn't think of a better person than somebody who was around for both those things." — Rod Pyle [09:11]

4. Jerry Griffin’s Path to NASA

• [10:32–15:20] Griffin recalls entering the space program:
  • Inspired by NASA’s formation in 1958 while serving in the Air Force.
  • Persistent in seeking a NASA position; finally joined in 1964 after experience with Lockheed and early satellite programs.
  • Early negotiations involved significant pay cuts and mentorship by other NASA legends (Gene Kranz, Mel Brooks).
• "Best decision I ever made." — Jerry Griffin [15:20]

5. Apollo 1 Fire: Recollections and Lessons

• [16:02–19:00] Griffin describes the transition from Gemini (robust, two-man spacecraft) to Apollo (three crew, new contractor, more complexity).
  • A sense of transition, not rush:
  • "It was different... but I never did feel like I was overly rushed. But it was a different spacecraft and we all had to shift gears..." — Jerry Griffin [19:00]
• [21:49–27:12] Recounts the details of the Apollo 1 test, the accident itself, and the shock in Mission Control:
  • Communications issues during the plugs-out test led to confusion.
  • The team heard the fateful cry of "Fire".
  • Emphasizes the resolve to investigate, rebuild, and continue:
    • “Every one of them I felt the same emotion. And the first part is sadness and the second part is the shock... but then the third piece is a resolve... you've got to figure out why, how it happened, what made it happen.” — Jerry Griffin [23:35]
  • Discusses the danger of a 100% oxygen cabin at high pressure, which contributed to the tragedy.

Notable Moments:

• [27:59] Griffin’s first-person account of the immediate aftermath:
  • Stayed on headset, heard the faint audio from the crew, and relayed the news to Mission Control.
  • “We finally got the announcement that there had been a fire and that the crew didn’t make it. We didn’t have any videos... They just told us. And so that’s when the shock and the oh crap set in kind of feeling.” — Jerry Griffin [29:24]
  • Emphasizes the importance of team solidarity and how everyone, especially the younger staff, stepped up in a time of loss.

6. Recovery and Resilience at NASA

• [34:34–39:25] Discussion on how NASA rebounded after Apollo 1:
  • The famous "tough and competent" speech by Gene Kranz reinvigorated the team’s mission and accountability.
  • Simulations and training helped restore confidence and unity.
  • “The challenge is what motivated the people in Mission Control. They didn’t mind making decisions like being out on the end of a diving board and deciding whether to jump and nobody to tell you whether you should or not.” — Jerry Griffin [36:56]

7. Challenger Disaster: Causes, Response and Cultural Impact

• [43:17–53:43] Recalling Shuttle Challenger (STS-51L):
  • Griffin, having just retired from NASA, shares the moment he learned about the loss:
    • “She said it blew up. And I said what blew up? She said the shuttle. I just watched it from Titusville across the river.” — Jerry Griffin [47:23]
  • Discusses the technical cause (SRB joint/O-ring failure), challenges with cold temperatures, and the broader design issues.
  • Griffin surmises the joint itself was fundamentally flawed, regardless of weather:
    • “My personal opinion... I think the joint was bad and we likely would have lost it on a mid summer launch.” — Jerry Griffin [53:51]
  • The Challenger tragedy led to massive procedural and cultural changes at NASA, including more rigorous paperwork, heightened safety checks, and a shift in decision making.

8. Columbia Disaster: Technical Details and Learnings

• [60:46–65:47] Analysis of Columbia (STS-107):
  • Describes how a piece of foam insulation striking the left wing led to catastrophic heat shield failure.
  • The foam was assumed harmless until post-accident testing showed otherwise:
    • “They proved us wrong because they took a piece of that foam... and they fired it at 800 feet a second... into a piece of reinforced carbon. They blew a hole in it.” — Jerry Griffin [64:07]
  • New policies for in-flight inspection instituted post-Columbia, leading to much safer final shuttle flights.

9. Lessons and Reflections for NASA’s Future

• [69:28–72:50] Griffin’s message to today’s and tomorrow’s flight controllers:
  • Trust in the expertise and decision-making of the current NASA team.
  • Encourages listening to those “in the trench” who have prepared and simulated relentlessly.
  • “If the people in the program and the people in the ops phases... say it’s ready, we ought to believe them and trust them. If they’re ready to fly. Let’s go. It’s time.” — Jerry Griffin [71:16]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We got a fire. Get us out of here.” — Final words heard from the Apollo 1 crew [Approx. 29:50]
• “You have to trust yourself eventually to call it. And they did. And it worked.” — Jerry Griffin, on Apollo 8’s bold lunar orbit [59:43]
• “A butterfly riding on a bullet.” — Astronaut’s description of the space shuttle, relayed by Griffin [65:48]
• “I can certainly never go there without shedding a tear or two.” — Rod Pyle, on the Challenger/Columbia memorial at KSC [72:04]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:18] Artemis II delay explained
• [08:01] Introduction of Jerry Griffin’s career
• [16:02] Jerry’s console and Gemini/Apollo transition
• [27:59] Step-by-step account of Apollo 1 fire and its immediate aftermath
• [34:34] Gene Kranz’s "tough and competent" speech; resolution after Apollo 1
• [47:23] Griffin’s personal moment learning of Challenger disaster
• [53:51] Technical discussion of SRB flaw and cold weather’s role in Challenger
• [60:46] Technical details of Columbia accident and lessons learned
• [71:16] Griffin’s advice to future NASA mission controllers

Final Thoughts

The conversation closes with mutual hope and goodwill for Artemis II’s upcoming mission and a moving affirmation of the enduring, evolving spirit of "tough and competent" human spaceflight. Griffin is optimistic about the new generation of NASA professionals and their readiness to meet challenges unknown—with resolve, teamwork, and humility.

“Let’s just hope they pull it off without a hitch. That’s what I’m… And it’s time.” — Jerry Griffin [72:50]

Additional Resources

• Find Rod Pyle: pylebooks.com | Aster Magazine
• Find Tariq Malik: Space.com | socials: @TariqJMalik
• Contact TWiT: twist@twit.tv

This summary was compiled to honor the voices and stories shared during “This Week in Space 195,” preserving the tone and intent of all speakers for listeners and space history enthusiasts alike.