This Week in Space 197: Inside UNOOSA

Summary

Podcast Summary: This Week in Space 197 - Inside UNOOSA

Date: February 13, 2026
Host(s): Rod Pyle, Tarek Malik
Guests: Artie Hallimani (Director, UN Office for Outer Space Affairs), Rick Cheney (Director, Expanding Frontiers)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the evolving role of the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs (UNOOSA) and its pivotal position in shaping the international governance of space activities. Host Rod Pyle and co-host Tarek Malik are joined by Artie Hallimani and Rick Cheney for an in-depth discussion about international space policy, the challenges posed by increasing activity in both Earth orbit and on the Moon, and how UNOOSA is adapting to a rapidly changing landscape with new actors and technologies.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Latest Space News

• SpaceX Crew 12 Mission:

  • SpaceX has launched its Crew 12 mission to the International Space Station (ISS), commanded by Jessica Meir, to replace Crew 11 early due to a medical evacuation.
  • The crew includes NASA astronaut Jack Hathaway, European astronaut Sophie Adeno (France), and Russian cosmonaut Alexei Fedyev.
  • Crew 12 launched from Cape Canaveral, marking a shift away from NASA’s historic Pad 39B.
  • [02:37–04:21]

• Commercial Spaceflight Developments:

  • Vast, following Axiom, is brokering a commercial flight to the ISS via SpaceX to gain operational experience ahead of launching their Haven One station.
  • Axiom is expanding funding for both its commercial station and spacesuit development.
  • The commercial LEO (Low Earth Orbit) station competition is heating up.
  • [04:32–06:15]

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2. UNOOSA’s Mission and Hallimani’s Journey

• Artie Hallimani’s Background:

  • Hallimani entered the space sector “by accident” after business school, starting at Daimler Benz Aerospace in Munich without prior interest in space:

    “I didn’t actually even want a career, so.” [18:40, Artie Hallimani]

  • Transitioned from industry and policy roles in Europe to global advocacy and, finally, UNOOSA leadership.
  • [15:30–18:40]

• UNOOSA and COPUOS Explained:

  • UNOOSA:

    • Part of the UN Secretariat, serving as the global hub for space cooperation, law, and capacity building since 1958.
    • Functions range from convening Member States, training in law & policy, helping establish national space agencies, and maintaining the UN register of space objects.

    “It is a standalone office within the Secretariat... convening is our greatest power. We bring more and more Member States around the table.”

    • Runs programs such as Access to Space for All (enabling first satellite launches), UN Spider (space-based disaster info), Space for Youth, Space for Women, and more.
    • Staff has shrunk due to UN budget cuts (from 25 to 21), making efficiency crucial.
    • [19:08–28:05]

  • COPUOS (Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space):

    • The main seat of global space governance, responsible for treaties, principles, guidelines, now more oriented toward non-binding recommendations reflecting geopolitical realities.
    • 110 member states; COPUOS advances consensus-driven policy.

    “Power to enforce, power to implement, resides with Member States... Member states don't want to renounce power to some multilateral body. They want sovereignty.”

    • [19:08–28:05]

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3. Evolving Challenges and UNOOSA’s Role in the Future

• Rapidly Changing Space Environment:

  • Hallimani notes rising congestion, debris, collision risks, and the “non-diminishing” sustainability challenges as commercial and state activity accelerates.

    “We have rising congestion, we have debris risks... they’re a very, very present challenge and we don’t see those risks diminishing in years to come.” [32:49, Artie Hallimani]

• Environmental Considerations:

  • Collaboration with UNEP is exploring unknowns about impact of increased reentries and burning of debris on the ozone layer and upper atmosphere.
  • “We’re just beginning to understand this kind of issue... in five to ten years we must have understood it far better.” [32:49–36:28, Hallimani]

• Airspace Integration:

  • UNOOSA and ICAO are collaborating to address increasing launches from multiple nations and spaceports impacting global aviation.

• Treaty Evolution and Legal Framework:

  • Outer Space Treaty and associated conventions are considered foundational, with resistance to opening or modifying them directly:

    “If you open them up, you’ll never close them again... These treaties need to be complemented with new instruments and new mechanisms.” [36:43, Hallimani]

  • Instead, consensus-based principles and nonbinding guidelines are the new mechanism, e.g. for lunar mining and space resource activities.

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4. The Moon, Resource Extraction, and International Law

• Governing Lunar Activities:
  • The Outer Space Treaty bans sovereignty claims but does not prohibit resource utilization; this gray area is being addressed via structured dialogues in COPUOS.
  • Principles under negotiation address transparency, prior notification, coordination, peaceful activity, and debris management.

    “COPUOS has historically always done anticipatory governance. We’re trying to do that, of course, with a much shorter lead time, but we’re still trying to do that for the Moon.” [40:06, Hallimani]

  • States remain responsible for the actions of their commercial entities.

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5. Industry Engagement and Commercial Actors

• Role of Industry and Observers:

  • UNOOSA seeks to involve commercial actors and encourages states to implement agreed-upon guidelines, as state responsibility is key for liability.

    “You try to have the conversation with member states that look, you are liable for these activities... You also have the power to control that by implementing the guidelines that you have agreed on.” [43:30, Hallimani]

  • Recent efforts include direct outreach to industry for input into policy debates.

• Mega-Constellations and Responsible Norms:

  • Hallimani underscores UNOOSA’s neutral, trusted convener role bridging government and commercial sector communications, aiming to break down silos and promote best practices, especially as mega-constellations intensify congestion and collision risks.
  • Consensus decision-making gives even smallest nations equal power in COPUOS.

    “COPUOS brings a legitimacy through its consensus-based guidelines. It carries the political will even if they're not necessarily legally binding.” [48:19, Hallimani]

  • She points to the GNSS example as a model for future international committees on lunar and space traffic coordination.

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6. Vision for UNOOSA’s Future

• Aspirations for 5–10 Years:
  • Hallimani envisions established international committees for lunar and space traffic coordination enhancing safety and sustainability.
  • She also seeks a global hub for centralized procurement and dissemination of satellite imagery within the UN system to empower member states, especially developing nations, with actionable intelligence:

    “We are the central hub for that... Whoever needs it, be it the UN System... or member states, they have what they need to prepare, to be resilient...” [55:06, Hallimani]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On accidental entry into the space sector:

  “I didn’t actually even want a career, so.” [18:40, Artie Hallimani]

• On the Outer Space Treaty:

  “If you open them up, you’ll never close them again... These treaties need to be complemented with new mechanisms.” [36:43, Hallimani]

• On commercial involvement:

  “Trust me, [you] don’t want a voice around that table. You’ll go crazy if you have to work at the member state pace, which is COPUOS. But come and engage in a smart way.” [48:19, Hallimani]

• On consensus politics:

  “Every member state has a voice on an equal footing... Maldives could hold up the whole committee if they refuse to agree to something. That is really, really important. You don’t have that in other fora.” [48:19, Hallimani]

• On aspirations for UNOOSA:

  “We have negotiated the agreements and they’re all in place... so that whoever needs it... they have what they need to prepare, to be resilient and so on.” [55:06, Hallimani]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:37–04:21 — Crew 12 ISS launch and crew details
• 04:32–06:15 — Growth of commercial ISS flights and nascent LEO station rivalry
• 15:30–18:40 — Artie Hallimani’s personal and professional journey into space leadership
• 19:08–28:05 — UNOOSA and COPUOS explained—their functions, history, and current missions
• 32:49–36:28 — Future challenges: congestion, debris, environmental impact, and regulatory needs
• 36:43–38:32 — Why foundational treaties won’t be revised, and how guidelines fill the gap
• 40:06–43:08 — Approaching lunar resource activity and maintaining non-appropriation
• 48:19–53:36 — Mega-constellations, breaking down silos, and consensus governance
• 55:06–57:51 — Hallimani’s vision for UNOOSA’s impact in the coming decade

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Closing and Further Resources

• Where to Find More:
  • UNOOSA is most active on social media for updates and resources.
  • Expanding Frontiers: www.expandingfrontiers.org
  • Tarek Malik: space.com, @TarekjMalik on socials

“Follow us on social media and you get a lot of information that way.” [58:11, Hallimani]

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Tone

The conversation balances formality and humor, with accessible explanations, anecdotes, and an inviting attitude toward listeners both new to and expert in space policy. Hallimani’s insights are delivered with both humility and strategic clarity, and the hosts foster a welcoming, engaging atmosphere.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking a thorough yet accessible recap of this pivotal episode on the UN’s role in space governance.

Transcript

[A]

Coming up on this Week in Space, there's a new crew of astronauts headed to the International Space station, courtesy of SpaceX's Crew 12 launch. Meanwhile, the company Vast has brokered their own flight to the ISS to practice for commercial LEO destinations. And on the global stage of space exploration, we have Artie Hallimani, director of the UN Office for Outer Space affairs, and Rick Cheney, director of Expanding Frontiers, to explain exactly where we're going in space as a world. Check it out.

[B]

Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is Twitter.

[C]

This is this Week in space, episode number 197, recorded on February 13, 2026, inside UNOSA. Hello and welcome to another episode of this Week in Space, the inside UNUSA Edition. I'm Rod Pyle, editor in chief, Bad Aster magazine, and I'm here with my man, Tarek Malik of Space.com. hello, Tarek.

[D]

Hello.

[A]

Hello, Rod. Happy Episode day. Always, always a pleasure and a better.

[C]

Man, Rick Jade of the National Space Society and Expanding Frontiers. Hi, Rick.

[D]

Hey. Great to be here.

[C]

Thank you. This week we're going to be speaking in a few minutes with Artie Holemani, who is the director of the UN Office for Outer Space affairs, or noosa. But we're going to talk more about that in a minute. Before we start, please don't forget to do us a solid and make sure to like and subscribe and support this podcast in whatever ways you deem appropriate, because it means the world and beyond to us. And now, a fresh space joke as it last week from Barry Hayworth. Hey, Tarik.

[A]

Yes, right.

[C]

What did Princess Leia say when she got the plans from the rebel spies and had to get to the spaceport to return to Alderaan, but her speeder was broken and the rental place only had a small pony to hire out?

[A]

I don't know. That's a very specific setup. What did she say?

[C]

She walked up to it and said, help me. Only one small pony. You're my only hope. Wow.

[A]

Barry. Barry. Actually a lot of setup, but it was very creative.

[C]

It was. It was kind of clever. Now, I've heard that some. Some folks want to encase us in carbonite when it's joke time with this show, but you have the power to help send us your best based jokes or whatever you got@TwistWit TV and we'll blame it on you on the air. And now onward to Headline News.

[A]

Headline News.

[C]

Kind of missed that one.

[A]

All right, I think I got it. I think I got it. We'll see. We'll see. It on the replay, Crew 12 launches.

[C]

The ISS to replace the ailing crew member from Crew 11.

[A]

Well, the ailing, whoever it was, it's the medical evac relief crew is what this is. The space station was will soon be back at full strength. It's been a long day. It's been a long day. They launched at 5:51 or 5:15 in the morning today. But a new crew, very smooth launch on a SpaceX Dragon Freedom lifting off from Cape Canaveral Space Launch Complex 40 now at Cape Canaveral Space Force Station. SpaceX has taken the Crew Access Arm off of Pad 39B. We will not see any new crew Dragon launches with astronauts on board. For from NASA's historic pad, they've shifted fully over to Cape Canaveral. And we've got four astronauts on the way, commended by Jessica Meir. And we've got Jack Hathaway, NASA astronaut as pilot. Sophie Adeno, the French astronaut is representing Europe. And then we have Alexei. I'm going to get this wrong. My apologies, but the Russian cosmonaut is Alexei Fedyev. Yeah, that's right on. On the mission. Very interesting launch though, Rod, because this is the first one in a while that had a lot of comments and moments with the crew as well. This is replacing the four astronauts from Crew 11 who returned home early, about a month or so early. And this mission was moved up a month from March to try to make up that difference there that leave the astronauts on the space station shorthanded. So hopefully when they arrive on Valentine's Day. By the way, Happy Valentine's Day, everybody. When they arrive on Valentine's Day, the space station will be back to seven people full strength for the next eight months.

[C]

Well, that's good. Yeah, exactly, because you got to have enough people there to keep that creaky.

[A]

Machine running and to keep the science going too. They, you know, spend most of their time on maintenance if they don't have this extra stuff.

[C]

That's right. Here's a headline that landed kind of close because we've, we've had Max Hoad on the show before, but Vast was chosen. Vast, the maker of the upstart commercial space station that's coming in behind Axiom and Voyager and it's called Haven One. That's right, Haven One, which is going to launch, we hope. The Pathfinder mission this year was chosen by NASA for the sixth commercial flight to the ISS. Tell us.

[A]

This is really interesting because we've had five so far and they've pretty much been all SpaceX or pardon me all Axiom brokered missions. Axiom space. So now Vast is getting in on that by also brokering a trip with SpaceX to fly their own set of private astronauts on a, on a crew Dragon to the station for, you know, whatever certain period of time, a couple of weeks, usually these missions last going on. What I think is very interesting is it really kind of is setting the stage for a commercial space station competition. This is clearly Vast trying to get some experience about running space station operations and science and all of the ins and outs of what that is like. And then they're going to probably factor that into how they're going to operate Haven. They already want to use SpaceX for transportation to their Haven space station. This will give them a lot of insight about what they need. Meanwhile, at the same time this week, Axiom has announced a bunch of new funding for both their own commercial space station as well as for spacesuit development, because they're building spacesuits for NASA, for Artemis. And so. So there's a bit of back and forth between these two companies over who's going to be first to get this commercial station off the ground and also, I guess, push out even further.

[C]

All right, that's it for our headlines this week. We've got a lot to discuss, so let's pivot over to Rick Janay, who has been a frequent guest co host on the show. Rick's in the house and among his many deeds in this life besides being an astronomer with a. Excuse me, astrophysicist. Got to get that right. With a PhD from Caltech, which always impresses the heck out of me. Rick built and runs Expanding Frontiers, which is helping to create the new space entrepreneurship in South Texas and beyond, and is over the last couple years has been grabbing up all the fallow ground at the National Space Society and re energizing so many parts of that organization, it's kind of hard to look at because the light is so blinding. So how's that for an introduction?

[D]

Thank you so much.

[C]

Since you've kind of reactivated our connection with the un it was always there, but we hadn't been doing as much with it as we could. Maybe you could talk about your work with the new un, your work with our guest Artie and introduce her to us.

[D]

Yeah, certainly. So. So, as you mentioned, as the vice chair of the International Committee at the National Space Society, I've had the honor of leading the delegation of NSS observers at the Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space. And this is sort of the, the forum in the world that convenes state actors that are basically discussing policies and soft law if you will, around humanity's activity in space. So as we know that's a very dynamic thing right now with all the new technology that's coming on board, the private actors that are coming on board. So it's very, very exciting to be involved in that. And there's been some recent changes that have been going on, especially with a new director that's taken the helm. And it's been exciting to see all of that evolve as you're saying before seeing how the role that NSS plays in that building on what was there. NSS has been an observer to copious for 25, 26 years or so. So we definitely had some very forward thinking people that made it possible for us to be there. And now we're taking seriously our role as an observer. It's sort of a ste of information, a steward of the history that is going on at the committee and also being experts or having access to the experts in the technology that is being developed that we, you know, we provide this resource. The idea is we provide a resource to the delegates, the member states so that they can better make informed decisions and we can sort of, you know, provide that second and third order effects to the various decisions that they make so they, they are informed as much as possible when they, when they move forward. And so recently Arty Holomayani was took the helm of the UN Office of Outer Space Affairs. And I have to say there was an immediate inflection point when she took, took the helm. She's coming from industry and she definitely one understands the importance of observers and private industry and how they could play a role. But she also understands that Colquist is, it's, it's made up of member states and it is a political organization and there's a lot, a lot to navigate there, which she's been doing an absolutely fantastic job in doing. And you could see the environment change, you could see that there's a vision behind what's, what's happening and it's being very skillfully handled. So very excited that we're able to get that. We have already on the show with us today. And of course I should mention that she is coming to NSS's International Space Development Conference 2026 which will be in June of this year. So if people learn more about what she's doing after this show, maybe even get a chance to shake her hand personally, she will be, she'll be with us in the Washington area. So with that, I'd like to welcome Artie.

[C]

Well, you stole my thunder because I was going to mention that everybody on this episode, I think, including hoping Tarek will will be at the International Space Development Conference in June. So we'd love to see as many of you there as possible. And if Tarek does manage to show up, we'll do a podcast episode live from there and can sit in the room and hoot and holler and throw wadded up paper at us and do whatever you want because we love our listeners. All right, we'll be back in just a few minutes with our special guest, so stand by.

[E]

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[C]

We are back and I'd like to welcome Artie Holemanney, who's the director of the UN Office for Outer Space Affairs. Thank you for joining us today.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[C]

It's quite an honor having you here. We're used to important guests, but I think you topped the list. And we also want to welcome Rick Janet, our occasional guest co host, who's the founder, executive director of Expanding Frontiers and the Vice President of Technology and Entrepreneurship from the National Space Society. Hello Rick.

[D]

Hello everyone. It's great to be here.

[C]

Thanks. Thanks for coming. Ardi, before we dive into all the conversation we're going to have, can you give us a little bit of background on your path, how you found your way into space policy and ultimately to leading unusa.

[B]

Sure. I actually fell into the space industry, the space sector, after my mba, and it really by accident I was told by the MBA school that accepted me that they were really worried I'd be one of the few people who it took a long time to find a job afterwards. And the first job I was offered after two months of starting into the MBA school was Daimler Benz Aerospace in Munich. And after succeeding in the assessment center of three days and various tests and interviews that they had, they offered me a job. And because the MBA school had put the fear of God in me that I'd never find a job, I took it. And so that was my beginning, the beginning of my space journey and policy came. I think I started more in strategy, but it was always to do with a program that would respond to European interests At the time. So I was working on gnss, which ultimately became the Galileo program. That's when I started in Munich and then moved to satellite operators. And when I moved from Munich to Brussels. Of course, any job in Brussels is about advocacy and lobbying, the European Union in particular. So that's where my policy journey really began. I was with the satellite operators, lobbying on satellite communications policy from the regulatory side, from the sustainable development side, if you will, humanitarian communications, emergency communications and so on, and of course, the digital divide. But after almost 19 years, I left. I joined North Star Earth and Space, and I was executive vice president for sustainability there for only three months because then I was offered the job at unusa. And when you're offered a senior job in space in the un, you don't say no. So there we are.

[C]

Funny, I've never had that experience, but.

[A]

I'll note that down for when the opportunity arises. But hopefully not for quite some time. Right, but. Well, already. I was just curious though, like, when you were younger, was space something that you were very much aware and interested of and then you found this opportunity, opportunity than this path or, or was it really like a, like a found passion that's led you to then or was. Was there. Was it always in the back of your mind there?

[B]

It was never in the back of my mind. And I feel so bad because there's so many people who have. Who have dreamt of space and wanted to work in space since they were young and always looked into the sky and the stars and I mean, yeah, I, I like that, but only because I'm a bit of a romantic, but not because of any academic or professional interest at all. So this is. I fell into. I mean, I don't really believe in accidents. I think things are meant to happen at the right time for the right reason. And indeed, I believe I'm here because I'm meant to be here to do what I'm doing right now at this time. But no, it wasn't something I dreamt of at all. Not at all. I didn't actually even want a career, so.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you know, one of, I think one of the big questions that I had for our listeners who may not know is kind of what the committee for the. I guess how Yunusa and the. How do you even pronounce it? Is it copious? How they're different from each other and how COPUS connects to the UN space treaties themselves.

[B]

So let's start with Yunusa. Yunusa is, Is an office of the Secretariat. So I report to the Secretary General. And we're so we're, we're not a specialized entity like WHO or FAO or itu. We're not a. We're not a separate agency or entity as such. We are part of the Secretariat, but it is a standalone office within the Secretariat. There are a few of them and we are, it's the global hub for space cooperation law capacity building. It was stood up back in, I think it was 1958, simply to provide secretariat services to the Committee. The Committee is made up of member States. The Committee was also set up back at that time. And so our function back in those days was purely to provide secretariat services to organize the Committee, convene it, you know, send out agendas, send out invitations and so on and so forth. It is over the years that we have acquired greater mandates. In 1972, we acquired a mandate on space applications to promote space applications for the benefit, for the peaceful uses of space applications for the benefit of Member States and all the different policy objectives. That was way before the Millennium Development Goals, let alone the Sustainable Development Goals. And we, I think the main things that we do are convening as the United Nations. Our greatest power is being a neutral and trusted body to convene. So we keep Member States at the table and we bring them around the table. We bring more and more Member States around the table. We provide capacity building services in space law and in accessing satellite imagery, satellite data, training member States how to use it, helping states put law and policy into place, helping them understand why the treaties are relevant for them. What's the benefit of that? How to establish a space agency? How to establish a regulator? Right now we have more than 60 countries who are asking for these services. And a lot of them are we want to put a spaceport on our territory. What do we need to do in legal, regulatory terms to make that happen? So also we have, for example, an Access to Space for all program. We've helped at least five countries launch their very, very first satellites into space. So developing countries who may not otherwise have certainly not the national capacity and knowledge, but the opportunity and the capabilities to actually build and launch satellites. We have programs where we work with space agencies and even companies who offer their expertise and kind of a handholding role to teams from, to allow them to establish themselves and develop those competencies. So very, very inspiring stories that come from our office. It's a really tiny office because there's a liquidity crisis on and there's a whole streamlining of the UN going on. We have just been reduced from 25 people on regular UN budget to 21. So it's completely not intuitive at all. When you think of space, when you think of the space sector and everything that's happening, it's Dyn dynamic, it's moving, it's growing, growing, growing. The office on the other hand, is kind of shrinking. But I'm used to working for very, very small organizations, but punching way, way above our weight. And that's what we do. There's a lot you can do when you're just smart about it. So, so that so much for Yunusa. Oh, one thing I should mention, Space sustainability is a really big issue right now. We maintain a UN register of all objects that are launched into outer space. This is a treaty obligation on the Secretary General self, which is executed by our office. This is a really critical tool for transparency, especially when there's objects landing back on Earth and countries are wondering, okay, who does this belong to? How do we contact the. The owner? What? You know, the register is like an address book of who owns what in space. And that's something that we maintain. So we really work across legal, technical policy domains to support different governments in different space related matters. One other thing probably I should mention, with so many natural disasters happening and increasing, so many increasing severe weather events on all continents, like even in the middle of Europe where we are, and you don't expect these things to happen, they always happen somewhere else, right? Well, no, they're happening everywhere now. We have a program called UN Spider. That's space based information for disaster and emergency response. And that is where we facilitate access to satellite imagery and data. We train member states how to use it. We make sure they know how to trigger the charter on space and major disasters and so on and so forth. Lots of other programs, Space for youth, Space for women, Space for climate change, the Space for Ocean alliance that we've just recently established with other space agencies. Lots and lots of programs that are all to do with the peaceful and inclusive use of space applications, technology, data services and so on. Copus on the other hand, is the committee. So that is, is the seat of global governance for space. It's where all of the space treaties have been born from. So we have six decades of governance which stems from copus. It is a multilateral forum. Consensus takes time to build. So it takes some time. It is slow. We have the long term sustainability guidelines which were adopted in 2019. They took a decade to negotiate, but at least they embody the political will, the shared political will of all the member states or members of the committee, that's 110 member states right now. We are secretariat to that. But the Committee has moved forward from treaties. We don't live at a time where you can successfully negotiate a binding treaty today. The geopolitics of our world will not allow that. But the Committee has evolved. It's moved from treaties to principles, to guidelines, to recommendations and, and ultimately power to enforce, power to implement resides with member States. And I think that reflects very much the world in which we live in. Member states don't want to renounce power to some multilateral body. They want sovereignty. They want their own ability to implement to suit their domestic and national points of view and, and the state of evolution of their own economies and so on. And so the corpus really reflects that in the way it works. We are doing a lot of, yeah, it's like capacity building, but for delegates. So we're in Vienna. The member state delegates that come here, we've just entered two weeks of our scientific and technical subcommittee. But the diplomats here in Vienna, they have to interface with many different UN agencies and entities. You have nuclear. Here we have the Preparatory Commission for Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. We have iaea, the International Atomic Energy Agency. Here we have unido, that's the United Nations Industrial Development Organization. You have unodc, the Office of Drugs and Crime. And then you have space. These are all very specialized areas, but different areas. And the diplomats here have to deal with all of them. So space is only one, one small piece of their portfolios. So it's very important that we make sure that they are informed and educated repeatedly as the space sector evolves. And so I've come to the UN from industry. Many people have been in the UN for like decades. They're really UN people. I'm trying to become one, but I'm also trying to open the eyes of this, of this system which has worked in one way for so long, and make them realize that when it comes to space, you're not going to be able to take efficiency, effective decisions and have valuable outcomes that you can implement unless you take informed decisions. And they necessarily must be informed also by industry, who are the ones facing the brunt of the operational realities, collision risk, the need for coordination, the need to share information, and so on and so forth. So our role, our capacity building role is also turning inwards towards Vienna and the committee that we serve, and not just outwards to member states and their local needs. It's twofold.

[C]

Okay, let me jump to a break real quick and then we'll be back with Rick. Stand by, everybody.

[E]

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[D]

So Artie, I've had the the honor of being an observer of course through National Space Society for the last four years or so. So relatively new. But I've been able to see how when you came in immediately there was a culture and environment shift or you know, an inflection point and your leadership was clearly visible. It was great to see. And of course together with that you recognize and you've mentioned it earlier, that the space activity is accelerating at a rapid pace. There's so many changes going on, new actors coming in, not only just state actors, but also private actors and so forth. I'd love to hear your thoughts on where you see Yunusa and Copious evolving. Say what is it going to be in five years, it going to be in 10 years?

[B]

I sincerely hope that it will be even more effective and efficient. I mean I say this as a hope, but you really have to commit to making what you hope for happen. So I'm trying to do that. I mean we have rising congestion, we have debris risks, collision risk. They're a very, very present challenge and we don't see those risks risks diminishing in years to come. So a much stronger focus on space sustainability, including debris remediation, not just mitigation, space traffic coordination, lunar traffic coordination, all of these are issues where the Committee will have to, in the very short term, maybe in the next two to three years, provide solutions when it comes to five to 10 years. There are new issues that are coming online. For example, the environmental impact of space activities. So UNUSA and unep, the United Nations Environmental Program, we're working together right now just to understand this issue better. We, you know, when you think about collision risk and congestion in orbit, common sense tells you that, okay, we need to make sure that objects which are in orbit are brought down once they end their useful life. So right now, objects which are in low Earth orbit, typically the standard around the world is 25 years after they end their life. Within 25 years, there must be deorbit orbited. The FCC in the US has reduced that to five years. But when you speak to the environmental community who care about the ozone layer and the depletion of ozone and all of this, they are very concerned about increasing amounts of debris burning up in the atmosphere because either large chunks do not burn up and then they land on the territory which brings its own risks naturally, or they do burn up and then you have lots of particles which remain in the atmosphere and those particles are accelerating ozone reactions and ozone depleting reactions and so on. We're just beginning to understand this kind of issue. So it's certainly not ripe for guidelines or any kind of governance. But in, in five to ten years we must have understood it far better. And probably the committee will then need to include these of issues which today are very new, but include them on their agenda and start thinking about them. We're also, if I may, we're also working with ICAO on airspace integration. So if all of those countries that I mentioned earlier actually do put space ports into place and start launching already the cadence of launches is increasing. If it starts increasing from many more geographies from many more countries and impacting a much wider aviation footprint, then that again is going to be something that needs to come from the space and aviation regulators back to the committee for their consideration. So I think deeper engagement with other sectors, deeper engagement with non governmental actors, industry, academia, civil society, a growing participation from developing and emerging space nations, regardless of whether they have space agencies, regardless of whether they have satellites. All of these things are really about positioning unus as a global reference point for so many different aspects concerning space and copus as well as the home of global governance.

[D]

So just to follow up on that, I'm curious about your thoughts on the Outer Space Treaty. Is there going to be a next version of that? Is it going to be modernized. Is it going to stay the way it is? How you see that going?

[B]

So we would never want to touch any of the treaties. The treaties are, are huge success, pieces of success of the committee. They might be old, but they're not out of date. It's amazing when you think back to when they were adopted in the late 60s, the 70s, how much foresight they embodied. What fun those diplomats must have had trying to think about what could possibly happen. I mean, we've been contacted by at least five countries this year in 2025 and of 26 who have received debris landing on their territories and asking us, you know, what can happen? Can we claim compensation? You know, what should we do now? Well, the rules, the rights and obligations associated with that eventuality are embodied in the liability convention, the agreement on the return, rescue and return of astronauts, which are all, you know, decades old. So we wouldn't want to touch them. If you open them up, you'll never close them again. So we certainly don't want to touch them. But as the committee's working on different guidelines and recommendations and principles, for example, for mining the moon, mining astronauts, so space resources, lunar coordination, space traffic coordination, mechanisms that should emerge in the coming years. So your question on the outer space treaty. Wouldn't touch it. Wouldn't touch it. These treaties need to be complemented with new instruments and new mechanisms which are, are responsive and agile and can be flexible to a very fast evolving environment.

[C]

All right, thank you for that answer. Let's go to a quick break and we'll be right back. Stand by.

[F]

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[C]

So, Artie, you touched on the moon. And of course that's a big part of the news that those of us in the space press are covering like mad these days. And it's become even more of a News item with Mr. Mr. Musk's announcement about, nah, I'm not going to build a city on Mars, we'll build one on the moon because it's closer which makes sense. But he kind of came around to it later than we might have liked. But since we're going to have lunar activity ramping up this decade, hopefully with a couple of countries, China and the US getting back to the moon somewhere in the 2030 window, maybe earlier as this, this ramps up. And there are going to be different national entities there and they are looking at resource extraction of water ice and possib metals from the surface. How will your organization look at the non appropriation principle and what is that? In a way that helps promote transparency and avoids conflict? Because above all we'd like to avoid conflict on the moon.

[B]

Absolutely. And there's a lot of goodwill and a lot of shared understanding that that is the goal. The Outer Space Treaty that you mentioned is still the starting point. Absolutely, the starting point. It bans national appropriation, but it doesn't explicitly prohibit using resources. That's the question that countries are now working through together. So COPUS is holding structured dialogues on resource use, on benefit sharing and on peaceful cooperation. Since I think 2021, we've had a working group on the legal aspects of space resource activities. And that working group has drafted a set of recommended principles which they're currently negotiating. And those principles discuss transparency, coordination and inclusiveness. As a top prior, there are things like providing prior notification that countries need to share information about where they're going and what they're doing. They need to consult if missions might interfere with each other. There's other principles on resource activities need to follow international law and remain peaceful. Extraction cannot become a claim of sovereignty. Minimizing debris. I mean the whole issue of what do you do with, with debris around and on the Moon, it's not like you can take it to a graveyard orbit or you can make it burn up in an atmosphere anymore. So that's a really big issue. Especially because the Moon is just one sixth of the size of Earth. So the approach, it's done with purpose. We're not waiting for a crisis. COPUS has historically always done anticipatory governance. We're trying to do that, of course, with a much shorter lead time, but we're still trying to do that for the Moon. And very important to remember is that even though you have a lot of companies who are active states remain responsible for the activities also done by their own companies. And nothing is changing that principle at this point. So we're still trying to, you know, work on anticipatory governance so that lunar activity develops cooperatively and not competitive.

[A]

Yeah, I guess I had a bit of a follow up there because you mentioned earlier about the value of an industry perspective within the office as well as for the needs ahead and how things are going to evolve, I guess across the board when it comes to space. And I'm wondering how you see at UNISA the ability to engage with these new companies or perhaps ones that are taking a bigger, a bigger stake in space internationally to ensure that everyone is, I guess, a good player, but also mindful of the potential need for safeguarding just the use of space overall so that it's there for everybody.

[B]

Sorry. So what's the question about how we engage the commercial sector?

[A]

Is it engaging commercial sectors on a company by company basis or as you mentioned earlier, is, is it ensuring that the, the, the, the, the nations themselves are minding the, the, the, the, the company, you know, their involvement to the rules and whatnot.

[B]

Excuse me. So there's different levels to answer that question. Certainly we are encouraging and trying to really. Urina is agreed on at. So the LTS guidelines, the long term sustainability guidelines, for example, are brilliant when you look at them. And when I saw them I couldn't believe that they had come from copus. But then I learned that they had been born of an expert group. And an expert group is a mechanism that foresees the involvement of industry. And so that's when I understood because when I read them they looked like part of them had been written by satellite operators and indeed industry had been involved in that. But it's one thing to get it right, but it's not enforceable unless it's implemented. And that happens at the national level. So you try to have the conversation with member states that look, you are liable for these activities. But it's not a blank check to companies that they can do what they want, but you're liable. You also have the power to control that by implementing the guidelines that you have agreed on. So if you want to, to minimize your liability and you want your companies to behave responsibly, etc. You need to implement what you have agreed on with other member states in the multilateral forum. That's one conversation. But then we are trying to engage commercial actors because let me give you the example of the Lunar Conference that we did in December of 2025. It was a lunar conference on the commercial lunar land landscape. I had been to iac, the International Astronautical Astronomical Congress in Astronautical Congress in Sydney in October and that was where I, I looked for, proactively looked for bilateral meetings with different companies who I knew were engaged in lunar activities. And I met a bunch of them, including U.S. companies. And you're meeting senior officials and they're like, like the UN has a space office. Okay, why should I care? The UN's doing a conference on lunar. Why would I ever go to a UN conference on space or on lunar activities? And the conversation with the US companies was, well, you know, you are going to require a license from the Office of Space Commerce. They are going to be implementing whatever the US, whatever the UN has decided. And the UN US is in, you know, intrinsically involved in making those, those guidelines or whatever. The US has a track record of, of doing very well in implementation and so on. And the companies had no idea. I said, this is your one opportunity to A hear what is being worked on and B, have a voice in it and try to influence it. So, you know, this is just lobbying. It's not towards your national government, it's towards the un because that's where these, these principles, et cetera, crafted. So these invitations don't happen very often. The UN is not open. It's not like you can just make an appointment and show up. So I'm, we are creating those opportunities up to you to engage with us. So it's not company by company, except to the extent that we try to get them to come and engage when we want them to. But, you know, we, we create broader opportunities and we still have to follow a certain process and we still inform the member states that we're doing, doing this. I can't as a, as a former industry person, I just, I can't just come in here and railroad it all and make it how I would like it to be. You have to still work with the system, otherwise you get demarched. And we don't need that to happen. Yeah.

[D]

So I'd like to, I guess put. There's, there's a lot of conceptual things going on with what the, what UNUS does and copious. And this idea of there's the legal treaties and then there's the norms and, and so forth is going on. Just to make it a little more concrete for our listeners. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are kind of. And this involves the commercial part, right. This concept of mega constellations, we know that's a, that's an important piece and especially in this great growing in the accelerating space, space theater. What do you see, you know, in that idea, you know, that we have these, this large growing satellite constellations and stuff. So what role can UNUSAN copious, you know, realistically play in shaping the norms and responsible behavior in orbit.

[B]

Well, we're still uniquely positioned to act as a trusted and neutral convener of both public and private stakeholders. And I think it's that trust is the most important. We often hear that the private sector needs a voice. That's why we go to the ITU, because there we are sector members and in UNUSA, in COPAs we can only be observers and that too only through our associations and so on. But we don't have a voice. I think I'm trying to also based on my network and the trust that I have with the commercial sector, at least the satellite operators who know me very well, is to make them understand, understand that, trust me, don't want a voice around that table. You'll go crazy if you have to work at the member state pace, which is copious. But come and engage in a smart way. Inform the member states. I'm trying to break down silos between space agencies on the one hand and the satellite operators on the other. The satellite operators don't need the space agencies, they don't get their licenses from them. And the space agen agencies don't really deal with satellite operators either. By way of example, in a few countries it's different, but overall there's complete silos there. And so I'm trying to get commercial sector to realize that you need to speak on a bilateral basis with your representatives in copus. We have right now an expert group on space situational awareness. This is the first step towards global space traffic coordination. They need to be informed that so many countries have a national satellite operator. Think of Brazil with cl, think of Greece with Helasat, two examples. But so many countries have satellite operators and they have their flight dynamics experts and, but they don't talk to them. And then you have diplomats thinking, oh well, how do we do? What do we do? And then it becomes follow the loudest, loudest voice. That's not right. So trust towards the commercial sector that work with us in the way that we invite you to, because we need to be smart about how we, we do that, but also trust on the public sector side. Because the good thing about COPAS is it's consensus based. You don't, it's, it's, it's. Which means every member state has a voice on an equal footing. So it's not that the US or China or the Russian Federation can drive their agenda any, any country. The smallest country, Maldives, is one of our most recent members. Maldives could hold up the whole committee if they refuse to agree to something. Other small countries could do that. Any country can, you know, throw a spanner in the works if they want to. But the good thing about this is you have the best chances of creating mechanisms that have the buy in of everybody and that is really really important. You don't have that in other fora. It's not a pay to play organization. So COPAS brings a legitimacy through its consensus based guidelines. It carries the political we even if they're not necessarily legally binding. So we can promote best practices, we can promote responsible behaviors that any that benefit everybody. We can create mechanisms. So one of the visions that we have for lunar sustainability and Earth orbit space traffic coordination in Earth orbit is international committees for Lunar Coordination, International Committee for Space Traffic Coordination following the model that we have for GNSS for navigation. So COPE was gave birth to the International Committee for GNSS where all the operators, the experts of Beidou from China, GLONASS from Russian Federation, gps, Galileo and the other systems from India, from Japan, from et cetera, et cetera, they come around the table. Despite all the geopolitics we see today, that committee is still working on the interoperability and the compatibility of their different systems and they're working on on commonalities because they know that the services and applications that can be built based on an integration of those systems or some kind of interoperability of those systems is far more than individual systems. And imagine satellite navigation is your ultimate dual use technology. So my point is we have a track record of mechanism that can be born from this trust, the trusted forum which is copus and that can go to prioritizing operational realities to really deliver value and enhance safety and sustainability. And that's what we're hoping for, Lunar, that's what we're hoping for, space traffic coordination and so on. So coppa's got a track record of doing what it does. It just needs to accelerate and be even more focused in a very, very challenging environment with all division and geopolitics that we see happening right now.

[E]

We heard you.

[A]

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[C]

Well, Artie, you've given us a nice idea of what it is that you do and what you knew some does. And I appreciate that we should let you get back to your important work, but I do have a final question. Just let's pretend for a moment that we're having you back on the podcast in five or 10 years, which I'd love to do sooner, hopefully, but let's just say five or 10 years. And at that point we have a probably vastly increased international presence in space, certainly in Earth orbit, but probably on the moon as well. If you were discussing with us what UNUSA accomplished during that time to help bring together the international community in these efforts, what might that look like?

[B]

I won't repeat the mechanisms that I have just talked about for lunar coordination and space traffic coordination, but for me they are up and running and we have, I mean, we can't control what is being launched up there, but at least we can control how they coordinate. Control, strong word, but we can at least influence how they coordinate and create a pathway for them to do so to enhance safety. So that's one thing. But beyond that, I would hope that we have, I'll give you an example which is completely different. We within the un, we are the space, we're the space hub, we are the space office, but we are the only office which does not use satellite imagery in data. Whereas there are 25, at least 25 other offices who are all buying procuring satellite imagery for the same country in duplication for their individual missions and mandates. Hugely inefficient. Coming from industry and being a manager rather than a politician, I look at that and I, I mean, I just want to pull my hair out. So we have, we, we've put a proposal in, in line with the UN80 process which is going on, which is all about making the UN fit for purpose, mandate driven, avoiding duplication, streamlining efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. We have come up with a proposal for a central procurement hub of satellite imagery for the whole system. But this is ultimately meant to be cost effective, not just for the system, but also for member states. There are so many member states who really need actionable intelligence, high resolution imagery and to be able to act locally and nationally. But they're developing countries, they can't afford it, they don't have access to it, they don't know how to use it. So in five or 10 years time, if I come back, I want to tell you that we have done that. We are the central hub for that. We have negotiated the agreements and they're all in place with so many different actors from private sector and we are streamlined and effective in making sure that whoever needs it, be it the UN System, World Food Program, World Health Organization, whatever it is, or member states, the Pacific Islands because they're facing sea level rise. What will that look like in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time? Yeah, that they have what they need to prepare, to be resilient and so on. There's probably a lot more examples, but I'll go on forever if you, if you make me, if you let me.

[C]

Well, maybe another episode because I think you, you have things to do and I know it's late there in Vienna, so we want to let you go. But I want to thank everyone, and especially you, Art, for joining us for episode 197 of this Week in Space, which we're calling Inside Unusa. Artie, where can we find more information on your activities online and unusis?

[B]

So, I mean our website is something that we don't yet have the budget to update, but we're looking at that. I, I never send anybody to our website because I don't think it's that user friendly. But what I would say is we are super good on social media and I would follow us, we're putting weekly updates and sharing toolkits and information of, of different resources that we're doing. I'd also refer you to the Knowledge Port, the UN Spider Knowledge Portal and the Space for Water Portal. But follow us on social media and you get a lot of information that way.

[C]

Okay, Rick, same question for you.

[D]

Yeah, so you can find me at www. Expandingfrontiers.org.

[C]

All right, Tarek, where can we find you in the digital cosmos?

[A]

Well, you can find [e-mail] as always, also on the socials at Tarekj. Malik, the J is really important and like Rod likes to point out, you can always find me on YouTube at spacetronplace as well and hopefully soon in Florida for Artemis too. You know, weeks away, weeks away, Rod, we hope.

[C]

And of course you can always find me at pilebooks.com [e-mail] and remember, you could drop us a line anytime at twistwit. We do welcome your comments, suggestions and ideas and one of us will answer each and every email. New episodes this podcast publish every Friday and your favorite podcaster so make sure to subscribe like us and give us good reviews. We'll take whatever you got. You can also follow the Twittech podcast network at Twit on Twitter and on Facebook and on Twitt tv. Twit TV on Instagram. Thanks, everyone, for coming together today. This has been a real, real treat. Artie, thank you. Stay warm there in Chile, Vienna, and I hope we'll see you again.

[B]

Thank you.