This Week in Tech 1018: Self-Driving Government
Release Date: February 10, 2025
Host: Leo Laporte
Guests: Lisa Schmeiser (No Jitter), Daniel Rubino (Windows Central), Kathy Gellis (Tech Dirt)
1. Government Demands on Tech Companies for Encryption Backdoors
Timestamp: [03:29] – [11:23]
The episode opens with a critical discussion about the United Kingdom's recent directive to Apple, demanding a backdoor into its iCloud's end-to-end encryption. Kathy Gellis highlights the historical context, noting that such demands have resurged despite previous refusals by Apple.
Kathy Gellis:
"[...] we are revisiting this issue and ignoring every reason anyone ever told us for why it was a terrible idea."
[05:08]
Daniel Rubino adds that this is the first explicit governmental demand, contrasting it with past attempts by agencies like the FBI.
Daniel Rubino:
"I don't think this has been so long ago that it was revealed that Salt Typhoon Chinese hackers had access to the phones of many officials [...] So this is always a bad idea."
[07:07]
The panel expresses concerns about the extraterritorial implications, emphasizing that such backdoors could potentially allow global law enforcement access to data worldwide, including in the U.S.
Senator Ron Wyden:
"The US has to dissuade Britain, Trump, and American tech companies. Letting foreign governments secretly spy on Americans would be an unconscionable, unmitigated disaster for American privacy and our national security."
[10:22]
Meredith Whitaker:
"Using technical capability notices to weaken encryption around the globe is a shocking move that will position the UK as a tech pariah rather than a tech leader."
[10:25]
2. The Rollback of DEI Initiatives in Tech and Its Impact
Timestamp: [12:19] – [21:40]
The conversation shifts to the controversial rollback of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives within major tech companies like Google. Lisa Schmeiser underscores the tangible benefits of DEI, citing McKinsey research that links diverse workforces to increased profitability and productivity.
Lisa Schmeiser:
"When you have a diverse workforce, especially diverse leadership... the difference in profit is in the double digits percentage."
[14:17]
Kathy Gellis challenges the misconception that DEI undermines merit, arguing that DEI ensures a broader pool of talent and perspectives, thereby enhancing meritocratic processes.
Kathy Gellis:
"DEI was a way of making sure you captured merit."
[16:42]
The panel discusses the potential negative consequences of eliminating DEI, including reduced company performance and a less innovative workforce. Lisa emphasizes the importance of using precise language over acronyms to communicate the value of DEI.
Lisa Schmeiser:
"Let's use the words, not the acronym. Diversity, equity, and inclusion bring a wide variety of talents and strengths."
[14:32]
3. AI Progress and Ethical Concerns: Training Data and Legal Issues
Timestamp: [25:02] – [72:12]
A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the advancements in Artificial Intelligence (AI) and the ethical and legal challenges surrounding AI development. The panel delves into Meta's controversial use of pirated books from platforms like Libgen to train its AI models, raising substantial legal and ethical questions.
Lisa Schmeiser:
"They've done it in other situations as well. [...] Classification is a highly sensitive issue."
[33:11]
Kathy Gellis elaborates on the legal ramifications, questioning whether Meta's actions constitute copyright infringement under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA).
Kathy Gellis:
"If you have a system where everybody's like, we need to have rules and regulations and China's like, go ahead, knock yourself out... They're placing themselves in a position of potential liability."
[31:47]
The discussion highlights the broader implications of AI training on copyrighted material and the distinction between AI learning and unauthorized distribution.
Kathy Gellis:
"AI doesn't substitute for intelligence. [...] The solutions may be offing entire populations, but human beings would react to that."
[34:46]
Lisa introduces Madhumida Murgia's book "Codependent," which explores AI sweatshops and the hidden labor behind AI training, emphasizing the lack of transparency in data usage.
Lisa Schmeiser:
"There is no way to know how the data is being tagged or structured without digging into it."
[57:22]
4. The TikTok Ban: Legal Challenges and Free Speech
Timestamp: [90:01] – [116:58]
A heated debate ensues around the legal challenges of banning TikTok in the United States. Kathy Gellis, an advocate for the First Amendment, argues that both TikTok and its users have protected speech rights. The Supreme Court's narrow unanimous decision to uphold the ban is critiqued for its flawed application of judicial scrutiny standards.
Kathy Gellis:
"The Supreme Court used intermediate scrutiny, which is a much lower standard than strict scrutiny required for First Amendment cases."
[105:35]
Leo Laporte discusses the practical implications, noting that Apple and Google have removed TikTok from their app stores, limiting its accessibility in the U.S.
Leo Laporte:
"TikTok is now telling Android users you can sideload the app, but it's unavailable on the App Store for iPhones."
[95:12]
The panel explores the concept of "jawboning," where the government pressures intermediaries like app stores to comply with bans, rather than targeting the platform directly.
Kathy Gellis:
"Jawboning is trying to regulate by pressuring intermediaries instead of targeting the actual platform."
[117:37]
5. Cryptocurrency and Sports Betting Regulations
Timestamp: [40:36] – [48:00]
The discussion navigates the evolving landscape of cryptocurrency-based sports betting, focusing on platforms like Crypto.com circumventing traditional gambling regulations by classifying bets as trade contracts.
Leo Laporte:
"Crypto.com has effectively created a contract, a swap contract. There's a market for yes or no positions in the outcome of the NFL playoffs."
[40:36]
Kathy Gellis raises concerns about the potential for fraud and the SEC's role in regulating these emerging financial products.
Kathy Gellis:
"All these people think they've discovered something that already was against the law."
[40:52]
The panel discusses the societal implications, particularly the rise in gambling addiction facilitated by such platforms offering easy and credit-based betting options.
Lisa Schmeiser:
"This is a recipe for disaster. You know, that's always been the story of somebody with a real gambling problem."
[44:58]
6. AI in Advertising and Search Engines: Challenges and Failures
Timestamp: [49:54] – [82:34]
The episode critiques the integration of AI into advertising and search engines, highlighting instances where AI-generated content fails to meet user expectations and the resultant misinformation.
Lisa Schmeiser:
"There's a Flood of AI Glurish in terms of content writing, where companies pump out high-ranking but meaningless content."
[82:26]
Leo Laporte references Google's struggles with its AI search mode, noting poor accuracy in generated responses and reliance on AI-generated advertisements.
Leo Laporte:
"Google has started testing a new search AI mode internally because the current results are worse."
[78:27]
The panel discusses the erosion of trust in traditional search engines due to unreliable AI outputs and the challenges in maintaining transparency and accountability.
Lisa Schmeiser:
"When you do have a screw up like glue pizza, what are you doing about it? How can we be sure it will never happen again?"
[55:24]
7. Gaming Market Updates: Xbox Sales and Future Prospects
Timestamp: [74:05] – [82:34]
Daniel Rubino provides insights into the current state of the gaming market, focusing on Xbox sales and Microsoft's strategic shifts towards cloud gaming and game subscriptions like Xbox Game Pass.
Daniel Rubino:
"Xbox has sold an estimated 94 million consoles, which is about a third of PlayStation's sales."
[32:29]
The discussion touches on the decline in hardware revenue for Xbox but highlights growth in digital subscriptions and cloud gaming services as key areas of focus for Microsoft's gaming division.
Daniel Rubino:
"Xbox Game Pass grew 2%, and cloud gaming is where they're seeing the most growth."
[160:33]
8. Self-Driving Government and AI-First Strategies in Federal Agencies
Timestamp: [117:04] – [139:50]
The concept of a "self-driving government" emerges as the panel discusses the appointment of Thomas Shed as the Technology Transformation Services director, who advocates for an AI-first strategy within the Government Services Agency (GSA). Kathy Gellis raises alarms about the potential risks of delegating critical government functions to AI systems without adequate oversight and accountability.
Thomas Shed (Referenced):
"Development of AI coding agents that would be available for all agencies."
[120:10]
Kathy Gellis:
"We are handing the keys to our most sensitive systems to people who don't have the authority to wield that power appropriately."
[127:47]
The panel underscores the dangers of unregulated AI integration into government operations, emphasizing the potential for misuse and lack of transparency.
Leo Laporte:
"I really do not want a self-driving government."
[80:24]
Kathy Gellis:
"We are growing the tulip bulbs around AI, which is not designed to be problem specific."
[32:29]
Key Takeaways
-
Encryption and Privacy: Government demands for encryption backdoors pose significant threats to global data privacy and security, with potential misuse by state and non-state actors.
-
DEI Importance: Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion initiatives are crucial for enhancing company performance and fostering innovation, countering efforts to roll them back.
-
AI Ethics and Legality: The use of unauthorized data for AI training, such as Meta's torrenting of pirated books, raises serious legal and ethical concerns, highlighting the need for transparent and lawful AI development practices.
-
Free Speech vs. Regulation: The TikTok ban exemplifies the tension between national security concerns and First Amendment rights, with debates over the appropriate judicial standards for such regulations.
-
Cryptocurrency Betting Loopholes: Platforms bypassing traditional gambling laws through cryptocurrency-based contracts highlight regulatory challenges and potential societal harms like gambling addiction.
-
AI Failures in Tech Products: AI integrations in advertising and search engines are often unreliable, leading to misinformation and decreased trust in tech platforms.
-
Gaming Industry Dynamics: Xbox faces challenges in console sales but sees growth in digital subscriptions and cloud gaming, reflecting shifting consumer preferences.
-
AI in Government Operations: The push for an AI-first government strategy lacks adequate oversight, raising risks of misuse and undermining accountability in critical government functions.
Notable Quotes
-
Kathy Gellis:
"Using technical capability notices to weaken encryption around the globe is a shocking move that will position the UK as a tech pariah rather than a tech leader."
[10:24] -
Lisa Schmeiser:
"DEI brings a wide variety of talents and strengths that homogenous populations simply don't have. It's better for business, it's better for society."
[14:32] -
Daniel Rubino:
"AI does not substitute for human intelligence. The solutions may be offing entire populations, but human beings would react to that."
[34:46] -
Kathy Gellis:
"Jawboning is trying to regulate by pressuring intermediaries instead of targeting the actual platform."
[117:37] -
Lisa Schmeiser:
"There's a Flood of AI Glurish in terms of content writing, where companies pump out high-ranking but meaningless content."
[82:26]
This comprehensive summary captures the multifaceted discussions of episode 1018, addressing pressing issues in technology, law, and society. The panelists provide in-depth analysis and diverse perspectives, offering valuable insights for listeners seeking to understand the complex interplay between technology and governance.