Windows Weekly 938: When Will Then Be Now?

Summary

Windows Weekly 938: When Will Then Be Now?
Release Date: June 26, 2025
Host: Leo Laporte, Paul Thurrott, Richard Campbell

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1. Windows 10 End of Support and Extended Security Updates

Overview:
The episode kicks off with a critical discussion on the impending end of support for Windows 10, scheduled for October 2025. Paul Thurrott delves into Microsoft's newly announced Extended Security Updates (ESU) program, which allows users to receive security patches beyond the official end-of-life date.

Key Points:

• Extended Security Updates (ESU):
  Microsoft is offering ESUs for Windows 10, branded as the "Extended Security Updates" program. This program is not an indefinite extension but provides additional support for a limited period.

• Cost Structure:

  • Businesses: Charged a premium for ESUs, with costs escalating annually. Paul remarks, “Businesses are going to pay through the nose and then through other orifices as time goes on because it’s going to double each year” ([02:24]).
  • Consumers: Initially priced at $30 per year, Microsoft introduced two free options for individuals to access ESUs:
    1. Microsoft Rewards Points: Users can redeem 1,000 Bing rewards points to obtain an extra year of security updates, eliminating the need to pay the $30 fee ([04:03]).
    2. Windows Backup App: Utilizing the Windows Backup app allows users to synchronize their settings to the cloud, facilitating an easy transition to a new system without incurring additional costs ([04:16]).

• Hosts' Perspective:
  Paul criticizes Microsoft's approach, suggesting it's a strategy to retain users without genuinely addressing the need to upgrade. He states, “This is just that little bone they’re going to throw people. You know, it’s a way to get around the 30 bucks” ([05:24]).

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Thurrott: “You don’t have to stay here. So yeah. So we know.” ([02:27])
• Paul Thurrott: “Doesn’t cost anything. Right.” ([05:25])

2. Experiences with Upgrading from Windows 10 to Windows 11

Overview:
The discussion transitions to personal experiences regarding the upgrade process from Windows 10 to Windows 11, highlighting the inconsistencies and challenges faced by users.

Key Points:

• Upgrade Prompts:
  Richard Campbell describes encountering persistent Windows 11 upgrade prompts on a non-domain-joined Windows 10 machine, while a domain-joined machine remains unaffected. He remarks, “Neither one is now continuously offering me Windows 11” ([06:19]).

• Hosts' Solutions and Workarounds:

  • Using Utilities: References to utilities like Steve Gibson's "Never 10" for suppressing upgrade notifications.
  • Organizational Impact: Paul and Richard discuss how domain-joined enterprise machines handle upgrade prompts differently, often defaulting to prompts only for personal machines ([06:37], [06:41]).

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Thurrott: “Richard, you are an enterprise machine.” ([06:43])
• Richard Campbell: “I want to be the guinea pig.” ([08:57])

3. Local AI Models and Hardware Requirements

Overview:
The conversation shifts to the burgeoning field of local AI models, emphasizing the hardware requirements and current limitations that prevent widespread adoption among average consumers.

Key Points:

• Running AI Locally vs. Cloud-Based AI:
  Hosts discuss the potential and challenges of running AI models locally on personal devices. Leo Laporte expresses interest in having a personal AI agent that doesn't rely on cloud services, adding, “I would love a local personal assistant” ([09:22]).

• Hardware Considerations:

  • Processing Power: Emphasis on the need for robust GPUs and sufficient RAM to handle local AI tasks. Paul refers to Intel's Meteor Lake as a noteworthy development in AI-capable CPUs ([11:26]).
  • Cost Implications: The high cost of AI-capable hardware is a barrier, with Leo mentioning models like the Framework desktop priced around $2,000 ([14:00]).

• Future Prospects:
  The hosts speculate on the future advancements in local AI, anticipating more efficient and affordable hardware that could make local AI agents commonplace.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo Laporte: “It's going to be a thing.” ([09:22])
• Paul Thurrott: “Local AI is still very kind of new, even for developers.” ([18:55])

4. Windows Insider Builds and New Features

Overview:
Paul Thurrott provides an update on the latest Windows Insider builds, highlighting new features being tested in the Dev and Beta channels.

Key Points:

• New Homepage for Recall:
  The Recall feature, incorporating AI functionalities, is receiving a significant UI overhaul. Paul describes it as “pleasant looking, kind of like the new Copilot” ([31:04]).

• Hardware Indicators Customization:
  Introduction of customizable hardware indicators (brightness, volume, etc.), allowing users to position these overlays in different screen areas ([32:00]).

• AI Integration in Settings:
  Microsoft is experimenting with an AI agent within Windows 11 settings, enabling users to interact with system settings using natural language. This feature is currently limited to Copilot PCs, utilizing a specialized small language model optimized for the device's MPU ([33:52]).

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Thurrott: “These are the types of things we used to get just as part of the subscription.” ([26:37])
• Paul Thurrott: “The small language model that they made for the settings AI agent... is completely worthless, but is amazing.” ([34:25])

5. Developer Tools and AI Integration

Overview:
The integration of AI into developer tools, particularly GitHub Copilot, is examined, showcasing how AI assists in coding and project management.

Key Points:

• GitHub Copilot:
  Richard Campbell highlights how GitHub Copilot aids developers by suggesting code snippets, identifying bugs across multiple files, and enhancing productivity. He shares personal experiences of Copilot detecting issues in different parts of a project that manual checks might miss ([65:29]).

• Interoperability of AI Models:
  Discussion on the evolving standards in AI interoperability, allowing different AI models to work seamlessly within development environments. Paul notes, “These are going to work and that's a problem” regarding the dominance of specific AI services like Microsoft's ([66:15]).

• Future of AI in Development:
  The hosts anticipate further integration of AI into various IDEs (Integrated Development Environments), improving workflows and reducing manual errors.

Notable Quotes:

• Richard Campbell: “Developers will target that kind of MPU and that might benefit all of us ultimately.” ([12:22])
• Paul Thurrott: “It's a score. And that's the difference between you like the Mac, which doesn't have as powerful MPUs.” ([12:40])

6. Microsoft’s Xbox Division Layoffs

Overview:
A somber segment covers recent layoffs within Microsoft's Xbox division, analyzing potential causes and implications for the company.

Key Points:

• Scope of Layoffs:
  Paul Thurrott reports that Microsoft's Xbox division is undergoing significant layoffs, with the process expected to extend beyond just the Xbox team into sales and other departments ([74:30], [75:05]).

• Possible Reasons:
  Speculation surrounds the layoffs, with Paul suggesting they might be related to changes in tax deductions (Section 174), forcing companies to reduce R&D write-offs by amortizing them over five years instead of immediate deductions. This financial shift could be prompting cost-cutting measures such as workforce reductions ([107:32]).

• Impact on Product Development:
  Despite layoffs, Microsoft continues to invest in new hardware and software initiatives, including the integration of AMD's next-gen silicon and the launch of new gaming handhelds like the Rog Ally ([95:23]).

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Thurrott: “So yeah, initially the Xbox layoffs were going to be announced last week, but they decided to delay them until after July 1st.” ([75:30])
• Richard Campbell: “Well, the thing about Microsoft owning the Xbox platform is that..." ([74:36])

7. Club Twit Membership Support

Overview:
Leo Laporte introduces "Club Twit," a membership-based support system designed to help sustain the Windows Weekly show amid changing advertising landscapes.

Key Points:

• Membership Benefits:
  Club Twit members receive ad-free access to all shows, exclusive content, and participation in special programming such as Q&A sessions and specialized segments like "Micah's Crafting Corner" and "Campdray’s Photography Session."

• Impact on Operations:
  Approximately 25% of Windows Weekly's operating costs are covered by Club Twit memberships, providing financial stability and preventing layoffs within the team.

• Encouragement to Join:
  Leo emphasizes the importance of community support, urging listeners to join Club Twit to ensure the show's continuity and expansion.

Notable Quotes:

• Leo Laporte: “Club Twit members are covering about 25% of our operating costs with membership.” ([160:29])
• Leo Laporte: “We love their lag-free video loading, their hyper-fast downloads, their friction-free site interactions.” ([00:33])

Conclusion

The episode of Windows Weekly 938 offers a comprehensive dive into the current state and future prospects of Windows 10 and its transition to Windows 11, the integration and challenges of local AI models, updates from the Windows Insider program, and significant organizational changes within Microsoft's Xbox division. Additionally, the introduction of Club Twit underscores the show's adaptive strategies in a shifting digital advertising landscape.

Final Thoughts:

The hosts provide candid insights into Microsoft's strategies, the practical implications for users and developers, and the broader technological trends shaping the industry. Their discussions are enriched with personal anecdotes, expert opinions, and forward-looking perspectives, making the episode a valuable resource for anyone invested in Windows and technology.

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Notable Quotes:

• Paul Thurrott: “If you wanted to go to 11, they could.” ([08:37])
• Richard Campbell: “Just say, tell me how to turn on dark mode and be like, here's how you do it.” ([35:00])
• Paul Thurrott: “Listen, if somehow I could get paid for all of the updates and upgrades and whatever I do, I would be rich.” ([25:00])
• Leo Laporte: “It's a step. It's not the whole trip, but it's a kind of a step in that direction.” ([42:25])

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Timestamps:

• [02:24] - Introduction to Extended Security Updates
• [04:03] - Free options for consumers
• [05:25] - Critique of Microsoft's ESU strategy
• [06:19] - Personal experience with Windows upgrade prompts
• [09:22] - Interest in local AI assistants
• [11:26] - Hardware advancements for AI
• [31:04] - New features in Windows Insider builds
• [34:25] - Concerns about small language models
• [65:29] - GitHub Copilot aiding developers
• [74:30] - Announcement of Xbox division layoffs
• [107:32] - Discussion on tax deductions impacting layoffs
• [160:29] - Introduction to Club Twit membership benefits

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This summary provides a structured and detailed overview of the episode, highlighting the key discussions and insights shared by the hosts. For a deeper dive into specific segments, refer to the corresponding timestamps.

Transcript

[Leo Laporte]

It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Thurad and Richard Campbell are here. Yes, October is the end of the line for Windows 10, but Paul's got a great way that you can get security updates for a mere thousand Bing bucks. We'll explain what Bing bucks are in just a little bit. Also, a live demo of the new smart Amazon Echo. Yes, Alexa is here. All that and more coming up next on Windows Weekly. Podcasts you love from people you tr.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is Twit.

[Leo Laporte]

This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurad and Richard Campbell. Episode 938 recorded Wednesday, June 25, 2025. What will then be now? It's time for Windows Weekly. Good morning, you dozers and winners you. Sorry, I didn't mean to scare you. Paul Thorat is upset. He's not happy. He [e-mail] he says stop shouting. We can all hear you perfectly well thanks to modern technology. Good morning or good afternoon for you, Mr. Thurat. Hello, Paul. Also with us, Richard Campbell. He is in the morning time because he's out here in British Columbia. Hello, Richard.

[Richard Campbell]

Hi.

[Leo Laporte]

Good to see you.

[Richard Campbell]

West coast time. All is well.

[Leo Laporte]

You've been up for a while. You made a delicious breakfast for your brand new granddaughter.

[Richard Campbell]

For my granddaughter and her parents. Yeah. And it's a little stormy out there today.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, look at that.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, stormy clouds are rolling through nothing.

[Richard Campbell]

So rain yet, but we're ready for it.

[Leo Laporte]

So, so pretty in British Columbia.

[Richard Campbell]

Very springtime because, you know, everything is green.

[Leo Laporte]

One of the most beautiful.

[Richard Campbell]

There are robins nesting in the tree right in front of the, in front of the window there.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's nice. For better or worse.

[Richard Campbell]

So.

[Leo Laporte]

I guess we could talk about Windows. I mean, it's up to you guys.

[Richard Campbell]

What the heck?

[Leo Laporte]

What's up?

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, I'm going to go in a slightly different direction this week, by which I mean backwards in time because Microsoft has provided more details about this Windows 10 Extended Security Update. Is that the name of the thing? I don't know. Whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

This program is the end of life alternative. Right. Like they're going to end life.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

You don't have to move right away.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. You don't have to go to Windows 11, but you can't stay here. So. Yeah. So we know. Look, we've been saying this all along. One of the big questions has been are they going to, you know, extend it out further, you know, like they did previously with Windows 7, what is XP, et cetera? But every indication so far has been, no, they're not. And Then today, yesterday, yesterday, I guess they announced how this Extended Security program is going to work. Extended Security Updates program is the official name. And yeah, they're not going to extend it past this. So there's some good news, though. We already know businesses are going to pay through the nose and then eventually through other orifices as time goes on because it's going to double each year. And then we knew that consumers would pay 30 bucks for one year only if they wanted to get this program. But now they have offered two ways that you can get it for free as an individual. To which every business customer, Microsoft went, hey, what now? What happened? So, you know, whatever. And we knew previously that if a couple weeks ago, I think a month ago, so Microsoft announced that they would support the Microsoft 365 apps, what we call Office Desktop on Windows 10 through October 2028, which is the three year deadline for extended support. So if you are an individual, you're running Windows 10 on your computer, you want to get the support for the additional year without paying $30. There are two things you can do. You can redeem. This is so goofy. 1000 Microsoft reward points if you have those.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that's why I've been using Edge all this time.

[Paul Thurrott]

It was either that or a $1 gift card to iTunes. But that's one.

[Leo Laporte]

Are those, those Bing points that I've been collecting is that.

[Paul Thurrott]

It'S whatever's left at this point. Right. But the other thing you could do is just use the Microsoft Backup app, which Microsoft has, the Windows Backup app that Microsoft has added retroactively, I guess, to Windows 10 and just back up your PC. Right. Syncing all your settings and so forth to the cloud. That way you can sync them back again later when you get a new computer or whatever. Either one will do it. So there's no reason to pay for this. And then I have some tip type stuff at the end of the show where I'm going to discuss this.

[Richard Campbell]

Why are they offering this, Paul?

[Paul Thurrott]

Because. So I was. Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

So why does God hate us, Paul?

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, I'm not sure about God, but I can tell you why Microsoft hates you. No, Steven Sinofsky discusses this kind of a thing in that book, which is, and I can't remember the term, but basically it's you have this bullet list of things that you're doing and some of them are just there to prevent people from complaining. Right?

[Richard Campbell]

Yep.

[Paul Thurrott]

And so I think the $30 payment was the final little like, like what are you doing? I mean, you're going to Support it anyway. What's the difference? Like you're, you're putting these updates on.

[Leo Laporte]

You have to do it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Doesn't cost anything. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

So this is just that little bone they're going to throw people. You know, it's a way to get around the 30 bucks. Right. And still keep the date. Do what they were going to do before and not change anything. But yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

What percentage you think of people will do this?

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, it's going to be based on how this reveals itself in the operating system. Right. Because I don't know that there are a lot of people who are listening this podcast now and they're rushing to go do one of those two things I just said. Right, Right. Well, the first thing they'll be rushing to do is try to figure out what Microsoft reward points even are. Yes. And do. And do I have any. Apparently my display driver is updating right now, so that's fine.

[Richard Campbell]

So I got two Win 10 machines here, which, you know, because I like to have my taskbar on the left edge of the screen so I don't waste that horizontal real estate. And one of them is now continuously offering me Windows 11. Every time I boot it, it's like, you ready to install? We're ready to go.

[Paul Thurrott]

Let's go.

[Richard Campbell]

Are you ready? And the other one? Nothing. But I'll tell you the difference between them. The one I built, never domain joined. It was the last one I built, even though it's running Pro. The other one, this one used to be domain joined and so I've destroyed the domain. The domain doesn't exist anymore.

[Leo Laporte]

But it assumes you're an enterprise machine.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. So it's not going to beg me like that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Richard, you are an enterprise machine.

[Leo Laporte]

Let me tell you, he is.

[Paul Thurrott]

Folks, I'm going to reboot just to.

[Richard Campbell]

Hopefully fix my button down collar. All about the enterprise.

[Leo Laporte]

He's just a disembodied voice now.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'll be right back. Hello, Siri, it's me, Paul.

[Richard Campbell]

That's the usual way. I think of Paul Thurot actually as a disembodied voice. A slightly grumpy disembodied voice.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh boy.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, I mean, and I don't want to either upgrade either one of these machines. I want to rebuild them both.

[Leo Laporte]

So this is why Steve Gibson created that little utility called Never 10. Yeah, that was for Windows 7.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. So staying on 7. Yeah, that's a very willing. That's a really Steve Gibson thing to do.

[Leo Laporte]

So it wouldn't. But it was a registry key Guessing that you just change and it doesn't bug you anymore. Is there one for 10 that will do that?

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, I imagine. I imagine it's running somewhere.

[Leo Laporte]

There's some registry key, because Microsoft. Obviously there must be. There's some way Microsoft has signaled to itself, oh, this one's on a domain, so it's a business machine. So don't bug them.

[Richard Campbell]

Don't do that. They'll call it and it will get mad at us.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, but. Oh, the other one must be a home user. They're both pro or they're.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, they're both pros.

[Leo Laporte]

So, yeah, it's gotta be that.

[Richard Campbell]

It's all different. I always love it when it prompts me to talk to my administrator and like, dude, I'm the administrator. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Leo Laporte]

I love that. I get that too, because I used that little hack to authenticate that went to a fake server which made it assume. Oh, maybe that's a trick for not having to worry about Windows 11. All right, should we let Paul in? All right, let's let him in.

[Richard Campbell]

What's that guy know?

[Leo Laporte]

We've just been talking about the fact that Richard has two Windows 10 machines that are. One of which is already bugging him for the upgrade.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

And the other one not at all.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, are they both, you know, qualified to upgrade for free or whatever?

[Richard Campbell]

That's a great point. This old one is like a Series 6 processor, so it might not be qualified. It also is an old domain join machine from the old network in the old house. And the other one is much newer, it's a 13.

[Paul Thurrott]

So I have a. I only have one machine on 10, which is just for testing purposes, and I could upgrade it, and I guess maybe I will eventually, but I kind of want to just leave it there to.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, you should be the guinea pig.

[Richard Campbell]

Do you keep a seven around just for fun?

[Paul Thurrott]

No, not anymore.

[Leo Laporte]

You can always call Steve. You'll have a few waiting for you.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, I'm pretty sure what I'm going to do is build out an AMD machine full bore and make that my coding and dev work machine, and then take the 13 chipset that's running that machine right now and make it into this restream machine.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

What I've been thinking, and I know we've been talking a little bit about this, Richard, increasingly, is that I am. And I think many people are going to want a machine at home that can run local AI models. Good enough to be a personal agent, because. Yeah, with mcp and everything. If you could run that locally, you wouldn't have to worry about, you know, OpenAI sucking up all your information.

[Richard Campbell]

I see a bunch of these, especially in the home automation space is all kinds of groups now offering. This is an olama host.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is more. More of a thing. Yeah. Than it used to be.

[Leo Laporte]

But I don't think first of all, the current open weight models aren't probably robust enough. The big issue maybe is the number of tokens. Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

You can test this. I mean there are.

[Leo Laporte]

I have Renault Llama on almost every machine.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, there's a variety of ways you can do this, but Visual Studio code, for example, has an AI studio, whatever it's called that you can. An extension and then you can.

[Leo Laporte]

You don't use a local AI. You don't have to put it in.

[Paul Thurrott]

Just try different models and you can interact with it like as a chatbot, just locally. I've done this kind of testing from time to time. I can see why I didn't use this monitor before. It's like flashing. It's like flashing on and off.

[Richard Campbell]

Just because you plug it in doesn't mean you can.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I wonder why there's so much dust on this thing. Oh, right.

[Richard Campbell]

Because it sucks anyway.

[Paul Thurrott]

But yeah, I mean, but this is something. It's. You know, Apple talked about this at wwdc. We're going to talk about a Chromebook that has local AI capabilities with a MediaTek processor. Copilot Plus PC is this if you have a big, you know, a gaming PC, workstation, whatever, with a good gpu. A lot of choices there. Although, you know, it'd be nice if Microsoft would actually support us.

[Leo Laporte]

You know, what's kind of unknown though is how much horsepower I'm going to need, how big a model I'm going to need, how many tokens it can handle and how much RAM and GPU and CPU that is going to require. Because I don't want to buy something today and then say, oh, it's not enough for next year.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, that's the.

[Richard Campbell]

I mean that's always this new in the cycle.

[Leo Laporte]

I guess you.

[Paul Thurrott]

A couple of years ago, I guess intel came out with the Meteor Lake. First gen Intel Core Ultra AI PC. Yeah, I mean in the same sense that like a Model A is a car, you know, technically it was out of date really quick. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, I. The popularity of the Mac, which doesn't have as powerful MPUs as we see in the copilot PC space, is a good sign because, well.

[Leo Laporte]

But it also has access to unified memory, which gives it a much larger memory space. So that's better.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right, but I mean, developers will target that kind of mpu and that might benefit all of us ultimately. Right. So that's good. And we see it on phones. You know, it doesn't need to be.

[Leo Laporte]

A Mac because it's going to be a server. It's not going to be. No, no. I mean, that's just machine.

[Paul Thurrott]

Just the existing.

[Leo Laporte]

No, I agree. I mean, if a Mac is the best thing, I just, you know, I want you to get that Framework desktop.

[Paul Thurrott]

Leo, I want to be super clear about this not recommending a Mac. What I'm saying is the existence of it and the popularity of it with developers will drive more model makers to hit that kind of an. Like, that's. That level of mp. That's all.

[Leo Laporte]

Because I would love a local personal assistant. That could be. Yes. A home assistant as well, that could, you know, turn on lights and stuff.

[Paul Thurrott]

But also, it's like saying, I want to live in nanny. You know, I don't want them to commute. I want them here all the time while I'm living. Yeah. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

I canceled the Framework desktop because I thought, you know, that's probably too soon.

[Paul Thurrott]

Which one?

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I was going to get that desktop that had 28 gigs of RAM and it had the AMD AI focused.

[Paul Thurrott]

Those are actually really good.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have canceled it. I just thought, those are really good.

[Paul Thurrott]

Those are probably the best ones now because they have. It's an. It's an apu, but it's a powerful integrated graphic. You know, the best chips that you can get. And then they have, if not the best, one of the best npus as well in a computer, like in a personal computer.

[Leo Laporte]

I wonder. I canceled it, so it means it's back. I'm back in the.

[Richard Campbell]

Back at the back of the queue.

[Leo Laporte]

Back of the queue again.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

I wonder what they're. Where they are right now.

[Paul Thurrott]

Sure. 2028. Looking like.

[Leo Laporte]

It'S. It's really cute and it's.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

So it kind of. It fits in. You could put it in your box in your wire closet. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. I'm not opposed to you canceling that just because the target's moving so quickly.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that's why I kind of did it.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. But this is modular, too. I mean, the point of this is you'll be able to upgrade this later.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, swap the chip set out.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, they're. There's. It's not Gonna yes, ships. Q3 now. Well, I was. I was only in Q2 so I would have been getting it around now. So that's not the end of the world. Yeah, but then it's expensive when you add up. That's 2000 for the base. 128 gig models.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's cute though, isn't it?

[Leo Laporte]

So cute. Now you don't need a lot of storage for AI or do you? A terabyte would be enough.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow.

[Leo Laporte]

Right?

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean per drive maybe. Leo, I don't.

[Leo Laporte]

And I would just get it with Linux. I would just do a Linux box, right? Yeah. Now we're up to two grand. I.

[Paul Thurrott]

It is expensive.

[Leo Laporte]

But you think that would be the. At least today?

[Paul Thurrott]

I would say today, yes. I mean. Well, the alternative would be a workstation slash gaming class PC with a big Nvidia. Nvidia GPU and.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, but that's gonna be much more expensive.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, maybe. I mean it's gonna be a lot louder, you know, it's gonna consume a lot more electricity. Do you have owned a PC yet that has two power cables, you know that kind of a thing.

[Leo Laporte]

One of them melted. Anthony Nielsen has specced out exactly what I want. Let me see here. For a mere $8,000. Thank you Anthony. Spending my money. Oh, that's just the card. That's the Blackwell.

[Paul Thurrott]

How much is that thing?

[Leo Laporte]

8,800 thousand.

[Paul Thurrott]

You mean pesos RTX 6,000.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, sure, but that. I mean though these things have like 96 gigs of Ram in them.

[Leo Laporte]

Can Russell get me? He has got one lying around. It's 4000 tops. That's pretty good.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's okay.

[Leo Laporte]

The copilot plus PCs are around 100 tops or less.

[Paul Thurrott]

40 to 50. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, it's got tensor cores. Oh, this thing is pretty. This is.

[Richard Campbell]

It's the top of the line workstation.

[Leo Laporte]

96 gigs of GPU kind of ram.

[Paul Thurrott]

Does this take? Oh, GTR7G's Louise?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

It'S like that Mission Impossible move where he was like I want the next gen Pentium AI chip. And you're like it's. That sounded out of date the second he said it. But it's like you have like you're describing a kind of memory I didn't even know existed. But I know how numbers work so it's like the next one.

[Leo Laporte]

And would the CPU matter on if you had something like this, would you still want to get that amd, right?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I would personally, but yeah, I would always go AMD at this point over Intel. I mean I can't speak until basically.

[Leo Laporte]

It'S with the last person in the office. Turn out the lights.

[Richard Campbell]

It's not.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean, it's not going well. Yeah, I. I mean, I. Look, will they get it right eventually? Yeah, maybe. I mean, maybe pigs will fly too. I don't know. I'm. I wouldn't. I don't trust it right now, personally, but yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

600 watt power consumption.

[Richard Campbell]

That's not for the video card.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, just for the video card.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's amazing. The rest of the system, 58 watts.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. I'm just thinking about the. The gauge on the power wires going to it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. It's like the thing you put your dryer on, you know, like it's one of those three prong plugs.

[Leo Laporte]

I have an RV plug I can.

[Richard Campbell]

Put it in, you know.

[Paul Thurrott]

What are you getting a Tesla? No, it's a PC.

[Richard Campbell]

600 watts at 12 volts is a lot of amps like that is going.

[Leo Laporte]

To catch every wire. Yeah, well, that's. Isn't that the problem they've been having with melting power supplies?

[Richard Campbell]

Well, melt melted connectors to the video card because you're trying to cram 50amps through that freaking wire. Like, good luck.

[Paul Thurrott]

I bet it plays Call of Duty pretty good, though.

[Richard Campbell]

Briefly. Right up until briefly. I remember water cooling, twinned nvidias. I think they were 6008 hundreds. And running them hard on a game, probably half life. And turned around to look at the temperature gauge and it was at like 90 degrees centigrade. And I'm like, wow, it's still running. And then it died.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

And it actually had melted all the seals in the water jacket.

[Paul Thurrott]

I would have taken one more. I would have been like 90 degrees centigrade. That's got to be a lot of. And then it would have went boom, boom, boom.

[Richard Campbell]

But actually it had little stalagmites of melted seal on the motherboard from slagging that thing.

[Leo Laporte]

So probably it's worth waiting a little.

[Paul Thurrott]

Bit because this, I mean, it's always worth waiting, but it depends on what you need now.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, and right now the models aren't, I think, there for me to have a personal assistant.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is so. Yeah, so this will come up here and there throughout the show. These things keep improving and they keep getting smaller and you keep getting smaller models that can do the work of bigger models, that kind of thing. Right. And so later on, I don't know where it is. In here somewhere.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, this is. It's such an incentive to wait because the targets are moving so quickly right now.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Local AI is still very kind of new, even for developers. I mean, and part of the reason is because. What do you use it for? Like what? Why would you bother targeting something that nobody has?

[Leo Laporte]

In most cases it's cheaper to just buy a subscription. Even a $200 Everyone subscription.

[Paul Thurrott]

Exactly. Just get your API key and. Yeah, exactly. That's whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

At this point that's probably the right thing to do.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, but eventually this stuff will catch. Well, catch up. It will catch up. It'll be good enough, I think is the way to put it. And, and, and for specific kind of task based workloads. Right. And that's. Again, we'll talk about this, but this is as AI. As these models improve, you know, they can distill them down. They can. What's the term when you train them on a particular set of data? It is called whatever it is anyway, you know, you have something that's very specific that you want to do. That thing can be smaller, lighter, et cetera. Assuming the model is trained correctly or made correctly. What is it you want to do? What do you want? This, this is for general purpose. I don't want a little GPT.

[Leo Laporte]

I want a little plastic friend skin.

[Paul Thurrott]

Baseball Batman. Say hello to my little friend.

[Richard Campbell]

I recently studied genetics just to make friends. But now I don't have to. I can stay with software.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, you know, I mean we're rapidly getting there. I have a little chess set over here on my coffee table that I turn it on and it can whoop my ass. And it has lights to tell it where it's moving. So I move my piece and then it goes okay. And lights up where it wants its piece. And that's my little chess playing friend. Now it's not as good as talking to a human being, but it plays a hell of a lot better.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know what your friends like. Mine can be a little tedious. So honestly, this could be okay.

[Richard Campbell]

Especially my chess playing friends.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, exactly.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm real judgy.

[Paul Thurrott]

Really?

[Richard Campbell]

That's your.

[Paul Thurrott]

Is that your final move or. Okay.

[Richard Campbell]

Are you sure you don't want to that back?

[Paul Thurrott]

Did your. Yeah. Your kid phone this one in for you? What's going on?

[Leo Laporte]

So I think somebody. So I think the house should be sentient.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, that seems like it.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm with trouble. Well, let's start with the humans, but okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

I want a sentient house that I can talk to, ask questions of. You know, we got Alexa plus the other day.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, you did?

[Leo Laporte]

I. For the Life of me, I don't know. I don't even know how to. It's. It's not even as good as chat GPT, you know, I mean it's got.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, how could it be? I mean, right. These guys were rubbing two sticks together over in the corner for three months. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

What did you think they were going to do? I don't know. This is like that's the idea is that you have what did you think was going to happen and that go.

[Leo Laporte]

In every room and you talk to it and it. It does stuff. Books, air. Air plane tickets and.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep, we're going to get there. We're going to get there.

[Richard Campbell]

Now why are we talking about the end of Life of Windows 10?

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh yeah, let's get back to that because Wojo had a great question. If I don't have 100 Microsoft bucks, do I have to pay 30 bucks? Is that still no.

[Paul Thurrott]

You can back up your computer with Windows Backup.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, you said that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I don't get how that works. You back it up.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know either. That's what I'm saying.

[Richard Campbell]

Now they get to see the UI.

[Paul Thurrott]

But if you Windows 10 or 11 today, just Windows Search Backup, it will come. Windows Backup, it will come up. I assume you have to do a full backup. I always leave OneDrive out of that equation because I don't use that feature. Windows really does not like that. But yeah, just get a backup of your. It's really a sync. It's sort of a settings state sync, whatever you want to call it up in OneDrive and that's supposed to do it. And I don't know when that starts or what notification you get that you did it or whatever, but as long as you're using that, you should be good. But again, I'm going to. I'm going to talk a little bit. Well, I'm going to talk around this, I guess is the way to say it in the.

[Richard Campbell]

I just went to look for Windows Backup. Like what would you find if you searched on Windows Backup and it says your Windows PC comes the one stop backup solution, Windows Backup, which will help you back up a lot of things. But for Windows 10, it'll no longer be supported as of October 2025.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, that's curious. So you have to wait, I guess. I mean I. It was only recently added to Windows 10, but. And they've been updating it on 11 to support this whole thing because they want people to use this as a sort of laplank, like migration tool. Right. But through the cloud to get people from 10 to 11, basically.

[Richard Campbell]

And it does look like it backs up. Backs up to OneDrive. So that's nice.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. It's also not really a backup. But you know what, it's fine. Let's not quibble.

[Richard Campbell]

But I do feel like this isn't this whole thing. They're not getting enough acceptance rate for migrating off of Windows 10, so they're trying to incentivize.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. I mean, that's the cynical way to put it. Or as I would say, the correct way. But yes, that is. That's a fact. Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. I mean, it's just how. But I appreciate jealousy, your synopsyism of just take away things for them to complain about. It's like we offered you a free option.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Yeah. Because you just. Sometimes when you're doing something like this, you can, you can see the complaint coming. You're like, let's just take that one away. Let's just get rid of, you know, just one less excuse. I don't think it's going to change much, frankly. But no.

[Richard Campbell]

And the real issue here is actually upgrading a machine is still a horrible experience. Right. It's still very difficult and fraught.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Yeah. You're much better off with a new computer.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Even a clean install on the old computer, if you can stand it. Always.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, every time someone, whenever I have a friend saying, I'm ready to get a new computer, this one sucks. It's like, well, now that you're ready to do that, let's pave the old one and see what a fresh install looks like on it. Because it probably sucks a lot less.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Yep. A lot of these things are like ripping off a band aid, you know, you don't want to do it, you don't want to do it, you don't want to do it. And when you finally do it, you're like, oh, why didn't I do this earlier? You know, like switching cable providers, switching cellular carriers, whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

But it's definitely like you had to whack yourself in the hammer for a day to get it done.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, we all have.

[Richard Campbell]

It's great. Nobody likes migrating software. They just like having been migrated.

[Paul Thurrott]

Listen, if somehow I could get paid for all of the updates and upgrades and whatever I do, I would be rich. But I. This is just something that happens. It's like part of my career, I guess. But I can tell you it's gotten a lot better. I think the big problem for most people, individuals Here, I'm not talking about admins. Obviously you have ways to automate this and so forth, but it is a lot better. But most people have that, that one memory of the thing, the time it went horribly wrong.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And. And that hard thing. Remember when you touched the stove and it burned your hand and you had like the bandage on. You have like six months. It's not like that now. Trust me. Touch it. You know, good luck, you know, getting people to like, oh, okay, you know, so it is better. I'm not saying it's perfect. And going back older computer that you've been using for a long time, right. Running Windows 10 with all kinds of software installed and configurations, whatever. There's definitely things you're going to miss still to this day, depending on how you use the computer. Right?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm not sure who the market is here we're talking about. Right. I mean, the people who are listening to the show, who are technical enough would have done this before if they wanted to. If they're on Windows 10 now, there's probably a good reason. If they wanted to go to 11, they could. And then there's this market of people who just don't know and don't care. And I don't know what incentive you're going to give those people other than they wake up one day and just did it, you know, like, I don't know. Well.

[Richard Campbell]

And I just don't think they're going to because it's not like Windows 10 bursts into flame in October 2025. They're just going to.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, that's October 2026. But yeah, it's. Yeah, I don't know. I don't. It's. You know.

[Leo Laporte]

We will talk about the insider program when we return. You're watching Windows Weekly with Paul Thurat and Richard Campbell. This episode brought to you by our good friends at threatlocker. Actually, I'm really excited. We're trying to figure out if we can go to Zero Trust World this year in Florida. Actually, it's next year, isn't. It's March. But I really want to go. These are. These guys have got Zero Trust nailed. And that's important because the world is not getting any safer ransomware harming businesses worldwide. How do they get in? Phishing emails, infected downloads, malicious websites, RDP exploits. Don't be the next victim. Threat lockers. Zero Trust platform does it right. They. Let me explain. I guess I can explain in three words what Zero Trust is. Okay, make it four. It's a proactive not reactive security measure, proactive, deny by default. That's really the three words, deny by default approach. Basically you block every action unless it's explicitly authorized, which has a miracle effect of protecting you from not only known threats, but completely unknown threats. And that's zero days of the real problem nowadays, right? You have no way to prepare for these. It's one of the reasons threat lockers trusted by companies that just can't go down. JetBlue for instance, one of them, they just, they can't afford a 10 minute loss, let alone days lost to ransomware. Infrastructure plays same thing. Port of Vancouver uses Threat Locker because they cannot, they cannot stop. Threat Locker shields you from zero day exploits and supply chain attacks, all the most nasty things while providing complete audit trails from compliance. So you, you know, it's, it's amazing because you know everybody because it's denied by default. You know which actions are authorized and who did what when. It's all logged. Threat Locker's innovative. They call it ring fencing technology. It isolates critical applications from weaponization because the bad guys just can't get to them. It stops ransomware cold. It also, and this is I think really important, limits lateral movement within your network. There was a story a couple of months ago about a ransomware gang that got in, they were thwarted by the, you know, the various rules and so forth. So they just, but they were able to move around in the network and this is what you really don't want them to do. And they were, and they found a security camera that was running Linux which had just enough memory for them to inject their ransomware. And the rest is history, right? You can't allow people to move around in your network. It's just not safe. Threat Locker stops it. They work. It works everywhere, all industries. They support Mac environments as well as PCs. So really any network, any heterogeneous setup, they provide 24, 7 US based support. US based support. So they're smart, good people, if you have any questions. And they enable because of this logging, comprehensive visibility and control. Talk about infrastructure. Place the IT director for the city of Champaign, Illinois again another place mission critical can't go down. His name is Mark Tolson. He said this ThreatLocker provides that extra key to block anomalies that nothing else can do. If bad actors got in and tried to execute something, I take comfort in knowing threatlocker will stop that. Phew, it's good stuff. Stop worrying about cyber threats. Get unprecedented protection quickly, easily, and I might add, check the prices very cost effectively with ThreatLocker visit threatlocker.com twit. You can get a free 30 day trial there and learn more about how ThreatLocker can help mitigate unknown threats and ensure compliance. That's threatlocker.com twit threatlocker. We thank him so much for supporting Windows Weekly. All right, are you ready to talk Windows Insiders, Mr. T? Sure, let's do it.

[Paul Thurrott]

So there have been what, three, Three something, Five, I don't know, some number of Windows Insider builds since the last time we talked a lot. Big one to me. Happened just the other day this week. Like, what day is it? Oh, yeah, Wednesday. The day we always do this show.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, the way we always do this. Came out of nowhere.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I know.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wednesday already just slapped me right in the face. So, yes, Dev and Beta are back on the same new features. Two big ones. The biggest of the two is a new homepage for Recall. Recall. I don't know why I said it that way. Recall has had kind of like a lot of the AI stuff Microsoft's doing. You know, the same way that they moved the Copilot button around, change the app eight times, you know, they, they're trying to, they're finding their way. The initial UI and actually the overall experience of Recall was pretty lousy for a long time. Now it's going to have kind of a home page with, you know, pleasant looking, kind of like the new Copilot is kind of pleasant looking. Even if you don't like Copilot, it's kind of a nice UI with, you know, a nicer way to browse your snapshots. You can browse by app, which is actually a pretty good idea. I think a lot of times if you think about what this is for, how people would use it, it's typically someone saying, I was doing something and I can't find it. You know, that kind of thing. And a lot of times they know what the app was. They're like, I was using a browser, I was working in Word or whatever it might be. And so they're going to give you a way to do that kind of stuff. So, yeah, that's fine for the two people that use this thing. And then this one is one of those things, when you hear the name, you're like, what hardware indicators are the things where there's a kind of an overlay pop up on the screen for like, brightness, volume, airplane mode, virtual desktops, that kind of thing. Windows 10, they were up in the upper left corner of the screen. In Windows 11, they're in the lower right there's going to be an interface and settings where you can determine where that thing goes. So of those things, so they can be upper left, center left, which is new center, sorry, center top or lower right as they are now. So you can, if you want those somewhere else. There will be somewhere else. So those, you know, who knows by the fall, certainly they're in Devon Beta, like I said. So it's not really clear when those will land. We were just talking about local models. Right. So I don't, I, you know, I have a tracker, but yet I have a hard time keeping track of this stuff. So Microsoft at some point over the past three months has been talking about, among other things, an agent that will be in Windows 11 for settings. And the idea is that you can use natural language to interact with it and change settings on your computer. This is something they first experimented with the initial release of copilot for Windows 11. They took it away, they sort of brought it back, but it seems like this is where they're going with it. The only little asterisk here is that this is a small language model that runs on the mpu. It's been optimized for that. So it only works with Copilot PCs. So if you kind of buy into the notion that all PCs will be copilot plus PCs.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, your copilot plus PC has 50 tops. And apparently my RTX 6000 has 4000 tops. But okay, we're all copilot PCs.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, but how much of them can you use with copilot plus BZ? 0 tops. No, I think it's kind of a weird.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, it's a weird limitation, but I declare top discrimination.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's topless. All right, so Microsoft, sorry, we knew this feature was coming. It's still coming. It's not out yet, but they are testing it in the Insider program. Apparently it has its own small language model. I appreciate them calling it that, by the way. Microsoft and other companies have used a variety of names to refer to the same things. I feel like we need clear language. There's enough new language with AI that a lot of it can be confusing, especially to, you know, mainstream, non technical.

[Richard Campbell]

And small language model is good. It encourages you to reduce your expectations.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes, I mean, I suppose local language model might be okay, but that's still LLM.

[Richard Campbell]

It's not really.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, exactly, but yeah, that. So small equals local, large equals cloud, I guess is the way we're thinking of this. So the big one that might. The big one, the big One, the big small one that Microsoft makes is something called Microsoft Phi. It's actually a family of models that run locally. If you have a Copilot PC, you are in fact using FI behind the scenes to do various Copilot plus PC features. I'm not sure which those are exactly, but if you think about the, the text manipulation stuff or the image manipulation stuff you would see in Photos or Paint, at least some of those are running on Phi. Phi was designed as what I'm going to call, God help us all, a traditional small language model. I know, I know, I'm so sorry. Right. What I mean by that is that, you know, Leah was talking about you have like all these terms like context windows and all this stuff and.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Excuse the brightness of my face, but I just realized I screwed up an acronym in this article. Basically what these things were, were distilled, you know what like shrunk, shrunken down large language models. Right. That's all like general. Well, well, a little less well focused. Yes, but, but, but just less, you know, now they're getting even more focused. Right. And so what they're what they're starting to make. And this is what I was sort of alluding to earlier, these kind of task focused small language models. This is kind of key because when, when I first started testing Recall and then click to do and the other stuff that Microsoft now has on copilot plus PCs, there's a really tedious and manual process you have to go through or had to go through, it's gotten a little bit better. But for updating the models that have to run in the back right in the background. So if you, you might have noticed this like in Paint for example, and I think in Photos as well, if you have a Copilot plus PC, the first time you go to run one of the brand new features, it will actually prompt you to download a model typically from the store. Now, which is maybe the right way to do this. These things can be big, you know, relatively small gigabytes. Right? Yeah. Yes. And in the case of Recall, I think there were three and now there are four. And you had to download them and install them one at a time, tediously, manually, go back, try to run it again, say nope, there's another one. And then you go back and try again. It's a really stupid process. So this is something that is a little concerning to me because the small language model that they made for the settings AI agent, which is called Moo like me Nice, which is cute, is a smaller distilled and highly focused task centric take on Microsoft. Fi. Right. So it's a. Right, they, they, they optimized it so that it's, I want to say, let's say it's 1/10 the size but for these particular tasks is as fast or faster than Phi would be with while consuming less, you know, electricity and less power and less space and whatever else. So this is kind of Microsoft talking through. We need a new term, a micro language model, perhaps an MML maybe or something, I don't know. But if you think about what Google's done this with Pixel, right.

[Leo Laporte]

They call theirs Nanos.

[Richard Campbell]

Right?

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

There's a nano version that runs on phones. Right. That's specifically for that purpose. Right. This is a constrained memory environment. The processing power maybe is not as good as you might get on a big desktop, whatever. So I think we're going to see this is as Leo was talking through the stuff earlier about local AI and all this this is, was thinking about because we're going to see more and more of this, there's no doubt about it. And I think Microsoft even explaining this was part of a campaign to get us to sort of understand the world is changing and like this is just going to be common, you know. So like we used to run, we used to download like a somewhat.

[Richard Campbell]

We're going to talk about model proliferation, right. Like how many machine.

[Paul Thurrott]

And is it dangerous to have them sitting there doing, waiting for commands? You know, it's, it's like when you have 150 apps on your phone, you only use like three or four of them.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

They all have to be updated all the time. So your phone's always churning and doing stuff. Right. So there's absolutely no reason to think that language models aren't going to be the same. Right. In some ways you'll just get them because they're part of the operating system. They'll be part of what gets updated all the time. Most Windows users who actually look at this will probably understand the problem where you go to Windows update, check for updates. You have some things that go really fast, like the security updates, the, you know, that kind of definitions and so forth drivers. Maybe there'll be that monthly cumulative update that takes a while. But the worst one of all is the NET update that comes every month, the. NET Framework update, they always do. I don't know what it is about that thing. It just takes a really long time and I feel like that's how AI models can be. I'm hoping this change will point to a Future where that's no longer the case or we'll have more of them, but they'll.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, most of the time. NET Framework updates are just patches. They're not new.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, there's security updates. Yeah, exactly. But there's something about it reminds me of like back in the day when you early versions of Mac OS X, you would install an update and it would reboot and it was like it had to rewrite the entire system. Like it overwrite every single file. And Android used to do this too. Yeah, Windows was, you know, for all the problems we've had, there's been a few. But Windows is typically been better than those systems for doing like delta updates and you know, kind of figuring that stuff out. The experience with small language models on Copilot plus Species to date has not been great, but I think it's because they're just like, you know, just getting it out there. And so I look at this and I think, okay, they're actually starting to, you know, to think a little bit more than just like, let's just not get it out, let's get it right. And so on the one hand it's weird to me that you would need something so specific for something like this. But on the other hand, you know, this is the difference between you like a. You have to know to launch the settings app, you have to know to search. Maybe, maybe the thing you're searching for does not come up. Or there was that thing before you would say copilot, how do I turn on dark mode and be like, here's how you do it. You're like, could you just do it?

[Richard Campbell]

Just do it?

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, that kind of thing. Like, I don't actually care what it's called. I don't care what the system.

[Richard Campbell]

I wonder if we're not that far from you just loading an MCP for the settings to speak to any LLM that's already on your machine.

[Paul Thurrott]

There you go. Yeah, I mean, sure.

[Richard Campbell]

It's just an interface.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. And it's really just the 21st century version of an Infocom game parser where it's just map what I want to what is there and just figure it out. So we have natural language tools that make that easier, obviously. So on that note, yeah, I mean, honestly, I know where to go to look for things in settings or whatever. I'm sure most people listening to this are watching this do as well. But you know, my wife doesn't. And she's super smart, but she just doesn't care. She doesn't know anything about computers. Like it should just work. And you know, when, when this chat, when this stuff started happening a couple years ago, I was like, are you, are you seriously going to go back to typing is what we're doing. We've spent the last 30 years embracing graphical interfaces and whatever, and now you want us to actually sit there and type. But some people will do that, you know, obviously. But some people will also. You can just talk to it. Right. And I think in the, you know, the Cortana era, because of the lack of capability there, the notion of someone sitting there talking to their computer was silly.

[Leo Laporte]

No.

[Richard Campbell]

But we're getting used to voice interfaces have been pretty bad.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

Up until just recently.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Now people walk around talking to their phones. Right. And so they're kind of used to this. I think it's going to be a thing. So I'm not saying I'm embracing it personally, but I do, I guess I see the need at some point. Everything we do right now is so arcane and old fashioned. We're just used to it. You know, there's going to be these newer, easier ways to do things. So this is a step. It's not the whole trip, but it's a kind of a step in that direction. Okay, what else do we got? It's curious to me, by the way, that's in a small language model that requires a copilot plus PC. I kind of assume this would be a normal thing. So I think it was late last week. There were several builds, like many, many builds all came out almost at once. So there's a Canary build that just adds features we've been getting elsewhere in the Insider program. Right. The window share improvements. You can talk about FAC in settings, the the state pill under the taskbar icons, yada yada, all this stuff. So Canary, some reason not been super interesting, but that's happening. If you are on Canary. Want to be on Canary or interested in this. They did release an ISO. I note that. Only because they don't usually. So those are kind of few and far between.

[Richard Campbell]

So there is an ISO and ISO of Canary.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So you can actually just start from there. If you want to install it clean, you could do that. It's, you know, I'm not saying do it, but you can do that.

[Richard Campbell]

And it's Canary. There's no way back off a Canary.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. This the Nuke from Orbit option from Alien Rebuild. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much.

[Richard Campbell]

Hope you use your Windows backup well.

[Paul Thurrott]

I hope you use something that actually works but yes, you know, whatever that.

[Richard Campbell]

Might be, you're going to find out pretty quickly.

[Paul Thurrott]

Snipping tool keeps getting updated. This one adds GIF export. I guess it's GIF export for screen recording. So in other words, you have a screen recording that's a video. It's going to be an MP4 file. You can however many seconds if you just want something that would be much smaller. So you get the animated gift thing. That's good. There are Release Preview builds for 24H2 both. Well, I'm sorry, release preview builds for 24H2. So that these are things that will be in the. I guess it's July, actually July patch.

[Richard Campbell]

Tuesday, which would be 25h1.

[Paul Thurrott]

We're not really calling it that. But yeah, I mean, you know. Yeah, so those are coming soon. Again, these are things we've talked about. But you know, the taskbar is going to automatically resize icons now, that kind of thing. Like, you know, the feature we had in 1997. What's old is new again. The PC to PC migration experience that the Windows Backup thing we were talking about relies on. Right. There's a 23H2 build also in Release Preview. There are like, there's like Windows 10 release preview. There is a. I think there might be a 2263 one. I think that's actually. I guess there were two 23H2 release preview. So this, they're. They're obviously working toward a lot of. A lot of updates over the next couple of weeks across whatever is supported in the Windows world, which is, you know, bunch of stuff.

[Richard Campbell]

Okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay. For something that is used by almost nobody. Microsoft spends a lot of time and effort updating Copilot plus PC. And I don't quite understand it.

[Richard Campbell]

It's their bet on the future, man.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know, but it's kind of weird. So if you were to list as I have all of the new features Microsoft has added to Windows 11, I am absolutely positive that the very best of those features are only on Copilot PC. But I might make the argument if you could somehow separate major to minor updates. Almost all, or at least most of the major updates have all been on Copilot plus PC. There were a couple of announcements today related to education. I don't know if there's like an education event going on somewhere or something. Microsoft was. I guess this isn't the first time they said this, but. The new surface Pro, the 12 inch, right? Yeah. And the new 13 inch surface laptop. These are the arm, the newer arm based ones. Are going to the education market. I think it's on July 12, which is a couple of days after patch Tuesday. It's coincidental, but they also announced something called the Microsoft Learning Zone, which is something they previously called Project Spark. It's still not out, but it's going to launch in preview later this summer. This is an educational tool for educators and for students. It's only going to run on Copilot PCs, so I don't quite understand.

[Richard Campbell]

We keep hearing that one.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, but the thing I don't hear here is when, when, when you look at the features Microsoft's added so far to this platform, you could say, okay, well you know these text manipulation, image manipulation tools, they work locally on the mpu. Got it. There's like, you know, the recall stuff. Yep, locally. Got it. Click to do. Fine. Absolutely. Whatever. The settings thing apparently is going to be local only. Copilot + PC I have read this announcement three times. I have no idea why this requires a copilot + PCI. I'm not saying I don't see anything that is specific to something running locally on an npu. It might just be that this particular post doesn't really highlight it very well. And maybe when they announced Project Spark, whenever that was back in January, whatever, there was more information, but I don't know. You know, aren't schools cash strapped still that I missed something? Was there an outlay of money for education that I didn't know about that happened this year? I don't know. You know, most of these places are going to be buying lower end chromebooks or Windows PCs. Right. That if they're buying computers at all, I don't know. So we'll see.

[Leo Laporte]

How about iPads? Is that, is that something in education?

[Paul Thurrott]

I feel like that's come and gone. But you know what, now that they're making the iPad more like a computer.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, might be better for it. Although it's not cheaper.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, but, but yeah, I know this is one of those weird things like if the goal is just to save money, that's maybe not the right answer. But if the goal is to have the best experience, maybe, you know, I'm not, I don't know. I mean you can make a case front of these platforms, I guess, but which actually, I mean related to that heading into. Well, I think this is weak. We had, we just ended the, the dev conference season. We talked about that. I think last week Google announced a bunch of stuff for Android 16 ahead of IO, which is kind of weird. A lot of it's not out yet. That's kind of weird too, right? That desktop mode is coming later in the year. A lot the material three expressive stuff, most of it is coming later in the year. All of the features for live notifications later in the year. But we have this thing now that has nothing in it. Enjoy. You know, Apple announced all that stuff around Liquid Glass, but to me, the big one, IPADOS 26 and all the, you know, the mouse and all that stuff. Nice. But there was nothing about like Chromebook and the Google stuff. Like it was kind of weird. So I actually went back and looked at this and it turns out they typically actually do two major announcements a year for Chromebook. It's usually May, June and then like October. So they just announced a new Chromebook plus device. It's a Lenovo. It's the first one to run in an ARM processor. It's not Snapdragon X. I think that's still that exclusivity thing. But there was a Mediatek processor that I highlighted I think back in early May because I looked at this thing and I said, this looks like it's a copilot plus PC. It's like 50 plus tops. I think it's 55 tops. Whatever. MPU arm obviously. Very interesting.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow, that's a lot of tops for a. Yep.

[Paul Thurrott]

Cheap laptop. Yeah. So Google just had a. I actually skipped out on this event. I could have gone, but they had an event in New York I think last week or whenever it was.

[Leo Laporte]

I think Jeff Jarvis won.

[Paul Thurrott]

He was very interested. Yeah. I found out later all these people I know went and I was like, man, was this really busy, you know, it was a busy week. But I kind of wish I had seen this now. But. So ARM based Chromebook plus, we kind of knew this was coming eventually. Right? There have been ARM Chromebooks in the past, by the way. But this is a Chromebook plus device on a modern ARM platform. Right. So interesting. So it's supposed to get great battery life. Obviously. I think there's going to be some advantages to running ARM on that platform. You're going to run it Android apps, you know, obviously, so that kind of stuff and then the MPU stuff. So they were talking of. Google was some local mpu, local AI running off the au. Sorry, local AI apps services running off the MPU like we see on Copilot Plus VC like Apple talks about and has been talking about for a long time with their neural processor stuff on the phones and Macs and all that stuff. And now they have that foundation, whatever it's called the Foundation AI kit, whatever it is for developers, you know, there's a lot going on, so I guess they kind of filled out that space. But there's also these rumors that. Well, not rumors. Android is getting a desktop mode. So at some point are we just going to get like an Android laptop? And if so, what's the point of Chromebook? And I don't have the answer to that. There's there. No one does. Right. Google does, but they're not talking. So they are replacing a lot of the underlying software stack in Chrome OS with stuff from Android because that stuff is better supported, better understood by developers, by hardware makers, et cetera. You know, they sell more Android devices, so that makes sense. But at some point, you know, when you rip it out like it's. Who did. Some did. Was it. You told the story. I heard the story recently where, you know, it's like they rescued this boat from the bottom of the ocean and parts of it would rot over time and they would replace it and replace it at some point. It's like there's nothing original left, you know.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, yeah, that's.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's kind of the famous.

[Richard Campbell]

It's a ship of Cetheus.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right? Yeah. So maybe Chrome OS ends up like that. It's kind of hard to say. But I really think the iPad thing has screwed up the equation for these guys in a big way because Chrome os, they've always had that kind of cheap thing. It's simple, that's nice. But Apple finally took that step and I don't know. I don't know what you do now. I don't know how you fight this. So we'll see. But we're definitely going to see local AI stuff on iPads. And of course it's the same processes. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

At some point. And again, if Apple hadn't made the announcement last year's WWDC about Apple intelligence and just sort of left everybody hanging for a year while they tried to figure out what they were doing, they'd be looking brilliant right now, right. For having sat back and said, this isn't real stuff yet. We'll wait until.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's for waiting for doing what they usually do, which is just showing up when it's ready and back when it's ready.

[Richard Campbell]

Y But I think somewhere in April, May of last year, they. There was such a panic around the hype cycle that it's like, we have to say something. And so they fabricated this, you know, smoke and mirrors demo and showed it and said, you know, coming Real soon. Now. And now, you know, they took an unnecessary black eye.

[Paul Thurrott]

When will then be now? That's all I have to say.

[Richard Campbell]

When will then be now?

[Paul Thurrott]

Soon. Probably 20, 26. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, the nice thing about then, it never really does become now, does it?

[Richard Campbell]

There is no now.

[Leo Laporte]

There is only now.

[Paul Thurrott]

We're only living in a simulation. I got to reboot anyway.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh dear. That explains why my lip sync is so bad in real life.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, and we definitely need a patch of something because this can't possibly be.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep, this isn't it. This is it. This is what we got.

[Richard Campbell]

This can't be it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, well.

[Leo Laporte]

Let'S pause the pause that refreshes as one says. And we will continue with Paul Thurat, Richard Campbell and Windows Weekly. We're so glad you're all here for our show. As always, you probably hear me say it. You've heard me in the past say it. For many years. Bandwidth for Windows Weekly is brought to you by cachefly@ cache f l y.com TWIT actually, it's still true. I never stopped being true. In the earliest days of Twit, we had no idea that we'd be so successful. I just put the audio on a website and even on the first episode, the website crashed immediately. I mean, just couldn't do it because websites aren't designed to deliver that much content. We tried everything. I think I. We made a deal with AOL Radio. You remember that? They hosted some Windows Weekly shows and for a while I was asking people to seed it on BitTorrent. Not blockchain, not Bitcoin. BitTorrent. Maybe you don't remember BitTorrent, but it was a way of distributing data to a lot of people. But it was kind of clunky and you had to have a special client. You couldn't just download it. I'll never forget Matt Levine, the founder of Cashfly. One of the founders came to me and said, leo, can we help you? I said, yes, please. And ever since almost 20 years, we've been with CashFly. For over 20 years, CashFly has held the track record for high performing ultra reliable content Delivery serving over 5000 companies and over 80 countries including ours. We love their lag free video loading, their hyper fast downloads, their friction free site interactions. But really at the time I didn't know any of that. I just knew that Matt was our white knight, riding in to rescue us and offering us a pretty darn good deal. You get all that for a great price. They're very flexible too. We didn't know for instance, obviously how many people were going to download the shows. Even after, you know, they started to take off. We still didn't know. It was always kind of, well, how many will download this week. So Matt was very flexible. He made, we basically designed our own contract allowing for spikes and you know, kind of smoothing that out. Once we figured it out, once we kind of got it down, we, we got even better deal with fixed rates. But here's the great news that still holds for you. You design your own contract when you come to Cash Fly because, you know, we all need a little hand. Cash Fly is the only CDN built for throughput too. You're not getting a budget cdn, you're getting a great cdn. If you stream video, you'll love it. Ultra low latency video streaming less than 1 second latency to over a million concurrent users. A million lightning fast gaming. Cashfly delivers Downloads faster with 0 lags or glitches or outages. You get mobile content Optimization, which offers automatic simple image optimization so that your site loads faster on any size screen, on any device. I think Cashfly is absolutely the best CDN out there and it has been for us because Cashfly delivers rich media content up to 158% faster than other major CDNs. And CashFly is now offering everybody something we've had for a while, which is great. They'll allow you to shield your site content in their cloud, ensuring a 100% cache hit ratio. No more cache misses. We just moved all of our data into the Cash Fly's new storage solution. I don't understand it, but Patrick, our engineer says it's incredible. Responsive. I mean, Cash Flies just, even though they've been around for 20 years, they are always on the leading edge of the latest and greatest. And with Cash Fly's elite managed packages, you're not going it alone. You're going to get the VIP treatment. Your dedicated account manager will be with you from day one, ensuring a smooth implementation. And then of course, reliable 24. 7 support when you need it. Beat the competition with faster content delivery anywhere in the world. CashFly provides reliable CDN solutions fully tailored to your business. They did it for us, they could do it for you. Learn how you can get your first month free at cashfly.com twit that C-A-C-H-E-F-L-Y.com twit. We love you, Cashfly. Thank you so much for making Twit possible. And I encourage anybody who's looking for a good CDN to take a look at cash flow. Back to the show we go. Mr. Paul Thurat, Mr. Richard Campbell, and the beloved Microsoft 365.

[Paul Thurrott]

You're in your house and you hear a sound.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

You're like, that's okay, my wife's over there. Or whatever. And then you're working for a little while and you wait a minute. My wife's at the gym. What is that sound?

[Leo Laporte]

Do you have an intruder? Intruder alert.

[Paul Thurrott]

What I hear are people talking at the front door, which is curious because there shouldn't be anyone here. But anyhow, I'll assume that's not a thief. And if it is, you know, we'll.

[Leo Laporte]

Have video of them murdering you, so.

[Paul Thurrott]

Exactly. Just. Just make it quick. That's all I ask.

[Leo Laporte]

I have noise in my house because they're ripping the entire back wall off of it. Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Why are they doing that?

[Leo Laporte]

It wasn't. So it's one of them when they're stucco walls, you know, and I guess.

[Richard Campbell]

The flash stucco anymore.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, the flashing wasn't really installed properly. So water's getting in between the house.

[Richard Campbell]

And the wall and not getting out.

[Leo Laporte]

And not getting out. And, you know, we discovered that during the rainy season, it was like, what the hell? So in order to get to it, they have to take all the stucco.

[Richard Campbell]

Off the south wall, which solves the problem anyway, because now there's nothing to hold the motor in.

[Paul Thurrott]

Twice this year, the electricity has gone out here that turns on an alarm. And I find out about it from the homepod speaker in the living room. And both times I've been away. So I was in Mexico one time. And then I grew up in Boston, so I have to call my sister or brother in law. Could you. Do you mind go to the house and then I can talk to them over the speaker and we live in a weird world. I don't know what's happening.

[Leo Laporte]

The world is weird. By the way. It turns out that everything's done so poorly on the south wall that the contractors are saying, you know, it's probably gonna be just as bad on every wall. So, you know, why don't we just take the walls off all of the house, redo it, start over.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, you're going for that kind of. Belgrade, Yugoslavia, 1995.

[Leo Laporte]

Exactly. And I realized that if they take the wall off, they're going to be making lots of noise right here. I might even be exposed to the elements.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

So, Richard, I. Can I come and do the show from your house?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Leo Laporte]

I Might have to. Or maybe Mexico City or maybe I could go back and forth.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Any luck? They won't let me back in and I have to stay.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

All right. Microsoft 365. I shall bow out here.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay, well, these are. These are short and easy. Microsoft Ignite, as we know, is happening in November in San Francisco and Microsoft has open registration for this show.

[Leo Laporte]

It's because there won't be any protesters in San Francisco.

[Richard Campbell]

Goodness, no.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, I mean, we'll see. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know what to say.

[Richard Campbell]

I'm not coming to ignite. I'm coming. That's a month. I'm taking the baby to New Zealand to visit all the.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, how fun.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm thinking, yeah, no way.

[Richard Campbell]

Better use of my time.

[Leo Laporte]

Was that poor planning or is that.

[Richard Campbell]

Really the way on Microsoft's part?

[Leo Laporte]

Certainly.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, it's the same thing they did last year was in Chicago, but same week, it's like the third week of October, November, which is kind of a weird.

[Richard Campbell]

Isn't that Thanksgiving?

[Paul Thurrott]

It's right before Thanksgiving.

[Richard Campbell]

It's the week before Thanksgiving and the week after. Net conf and the launch of the new version.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, at least it's not the week of.

[Richard Campbell]

Net conf that would be a problem.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Now who's Ignite for. That's not build. Ignite is for what it Professor Ignites for everybody.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, yes.

[Leo Laporte]

Because we're all I T. Professionals now.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. I don't know. We'll see. I'm gonna. This will be a game time decision for me, but I don't know. I'm probably gonna be in. I will be in Mexico. I'm not gonna want to go to this. I. Last year I was going to go that then I was in Mexico and I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. But no. Right. I don't know. And then this is not a big, big deal, but they had done this earlier on iOS. But if you have an Android device, someone shares an Office document with you from OneDrive. OneDrive for business, whatever it is. To date, you've had to have a Microsoft account to get out that thing. Now you don't. So I don't know who this is for either. But whatever, there it is. Okay. Nothing major, but there has been an ongoing story that is in kind of the background of all the other stories. When we talk about OpenAI and Microsoft and their relationship and how they're kind of partners, but they're also competing with each other. And there's a lot of weird passive aggressive stuff going on there. There was a report. I tried to find this when I saw this story, and I couldn't. But a couple of months ago, there was a story in the Wall Street Journal. It wasn't specifically about Copilot, but, but it was some AI, something, something. And they had a look at like, how many users each of the major services had per month, what the engagement was like, what the growth had been like. And, you know, chatgpt Rocket Sled, Gemini's doing pretty good. You know, there's other things that are doing pretty good. And then at the bottom, this is like one pixel sliver. That was Copilot. And I was like, that's kind of weird. But as recently as last week, we probably talked about this notion that Microsoft in some ways could win by losing. Right. I mean, a lot of AI will be hosted on Azure. That's good for Microsoft. But I think that building it into the products and services that people actually, or customers, in their case, business. Customers actually use, which is Microsoft 365 is, you know, it's a solid strategy. It's a winning strategy. Right.

[Richard Campbell]

And it's pretty much the only one Microsoft's got. They own the enterprise. The consumer doesn't think about Microsoft.

[Paul Thurrott]

Donald Rumsfeld once said, you go to the army, you know, you go to war with the army, you have, you know, the army Microsoft has is the enterprise.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Except it turns out there's been spent some problems there. There was a report, I think it was in Bloomberg, talking about the explosive growth that ChatGPT has had and Copilot has not, and how this has become an increasing kind of friction point between these two companies. We've talked about this. I mean, this is just another thing that kind of verifies, you know, what we've already been saying.

[Richard Campbell]

But my experience has been that sysadmins hesitate because they're responsible for data integrity, and the employees don't hesitate. They just use whatever free tools they can lay their hands on. And by the time the admin side has got their act together to make a decision, the users are already in a workflow they don't want to divert from.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So, yeah, this is actually very reminiscent of the dawn of the personal computing era, when the Apple IIE found its way into businesses because of VisiCalc. Like, people saw it at home, as individuals. They're like, we have to have this at work. This is unbelievable. And it kind of just pushed usage. I mean, with windows in the 90s it was kind of the opposite effect. It was like we had Windows PCs at work and all the apps were there and it was like, okay, when we get a computer, we have to get this computer because I can run.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, that's what you knew how to use. Yeah, but the work PC hasn't been the dominant machine for the consumer for a long time.

[Paul Thurrott]

Forever.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, right, but so many same problem is like as soon as you try and block Chat GBT from your corporate network, everybody whips out their phone.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right, right, yeah, right, exactly. And, and we talked about this I think the week of build. But there's a really interesting thing in AI generally. So when you look at big tech and you look at all these AI services, whether it's Google with Gemini, Microsoft Copilot Chat GPT with OpenAI, Anthropic, whatever, whatever, there are these standards that have evolved like MCP where these things are just interoperable. And this is the type of thing that Microsoft, through antitrust back in the early 2000s and apparently now again in the EU with teams is being forced to do by regulators. But it's just happening organically, which is open up these platforms with interfaces that anything can plug into. And so, you know, out of necessity I guess, rather than build this closed system that just works, it probably will always work a little bit better, I guess, but works best or only works with Microsoft's AI. You know, you can, you can, or soon we will be able to plug in any AI to this thing. So you might be running Microsoft Word, but you're good Chat GPT over here on the side or whatever, like these things are going to work and that's a problem. It's interesting what happens when these kind of lock in strategies stop paying off. And I think, I think it was last week we're talking about this notion of ChatGPT is kind of the Kleenex or whatever of AI, the chrome of AI, that thing that has gotten over the power of the default.

[Richard Campbell]

It's so the proper noun that's become the noun.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I mean, so I think these things all kind of play into this dynamic. But man, it's weird. You would think that just by virtue of the market they have, they would have some presence of note, but it's not clear that they do.

[Richard Campbell]

No. And then the funny thing is it's like where does GitHub fit in this equation? Are they counting that in the Microsoft numbers? Because GitHub seems to have the love.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Although there too you're starting to, you know, Apple announced kind of a. They didn't call it this but a pair programmer thing that will sit in the sidebar of Xcode and it's their thing but it's really chat GPT and you'll be able to plug in other models etc. Just like we do in Visual Studio code.

[Richard Campbell]

You do that with GitHub Copilot too. Is your. You're flipping to Claude anyway.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And lots of people love webstorm Cursor.

[Paul Thurrott]

Cursor.

[Richard Campbell]

Like there's other tools.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's right. Yeah. So I think, I think the first party tools. GitHub Copilot's probably the most obvious one but whatever Apple's doing in Xcode, I think I haven't. Yeah, I do. The next thing is about this Gemini based AI capabilities built into Android Studio which is their IDE for creating Android app apps is getting an agent mode. You know, there's not much more to say beyond that headline but those things will be popular because you're working in that first party environment to create apps that will run in that first party ecosystem. It's there, it makes sense. Maybe you mix and match models but you're going to use the service that they have. I the fascinating thing to me in some ways about the developer space is that because of web development especially but I guess mobile to a lesser degree there are a lot of people doing kind of these ad hoc, you know, build outs of developer tools and that's where cursor and those things come to play. Like you can. You could just run anthropic in a web browser and be like how do I make this method more efficient or correct or whatever it is. And it doesn't matter what the tool is you're using, you just it's going to work. So people, we'll see, we'll see what shakes out at the end of this. But I do think GitHub Copilot will continue to be a big deal in that space.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. There's an argument when you talk about looking at software projects as a whole, not just pieces of code that tooling integrated into your development environment so that it can look across the scope of the project. Not just the piece of code provides a substantial increase in value and that needs a higher level of integration which is not that simple to do.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. I just experienced that for the first time. I've been working up various kind of forks of my app and trying to figure something out and whatever it is and it literally and it being in this case GitHub copilot which I think is whatever. The default is probably anthropic something. Well, maybe it isn't. I don't know. It's either OpenAI or anthropic. But whatever it was said I copied a block of code and I said, I don't know, I didn't write it this way. But I don't know why this doesn't work. It seems like this should work. Here's what I expect it to do. It's not doing it. And it's like. And it said, well, this code looks fine. Actually, the problem isn't in this file, it's over here. And I was like, yikes. I mean, and yes, I mean, of course, because you know, I'm not writing a, like a, you know, a basic program line 10, you know, whatever goes down, it's thousands of lines of codes across dozens of files. I mean finding that stuff as an individual, whether you're a professional developer or an idiot like me, is very difficult. And this is, that's, that's where that stuff just shines. It's great. Yeah, but I do, yeah, to your point, I do think GitHub Copilot as a brand and as a whatever, something that has usage share, whatever is going to be, continue to be popular. I'm a little surprised. The copilot they're talking about is really copilot for Microsoft 365. Right, right.

[Richard Campbell]

Which ought to be the winner except we're really struggling with the work scenarios for information workers here. Right. They're so hit and miss.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. And look, I, I know Microsoft has had tiers of these subscriptions for years. This is not new. They've seen great success with the higher end, more expensive ones. I got it. But my problem, looking at this, and I would like to think a lot of it guys look at it the same way is I follow this space. I've been doing this for years and every month there are some number of new features and new capabilities, whatever, most of which now are AI, whatever copilot based. And these are the types of things we used to get just as part of the subscription. Before, if you were running Microsoft Word in any capacity and they added a feature to Word, you got it. But now you have to have this additional per user per month thing and it might be the enterprise version of subscription fatigue where it's like, enough. Yeah, enough.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. I'm not, I'm not pitching this up to the cfo. I'm not adding.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. I mean we might have finally hit a wall on that. I I never honestly thought that would happen.

[Richard Campbell]

In a way, the real, your real point here is if Microsoft actually owns market share, do the bundle thing you've always done. This is now part of your bundle. Nobody asks for teams. Teams has massive support because you wanted Word.

[Paul Thurrott]

Now that's gotten a, into some trouble, you know, recently. This is kind of the thing like. But yes, I look it when I think it was earlier this year, I guess it feels like it was a long time ago. But let's say early, very early, maybe January, ish. They raised the price of Microsoft 365 for consumers. Right. This is a family and a personal version. It went up, whatever it was, 10, 20% something. But you get these AI features for the person who's paying for the subscription only. I feel like that should be a little bit better, but okay. And I was like, okay. You know, like to me this feels commensurate, like it's okay. I think when you're, you have an enterprise, some of your employees are 20 bucks a month, some of them may be 80 bucks a month, whatever, but an additional $30 per month to get a cherry pick list of features that go across all of the products and services that are in there. Most of which maybe that person is not going to use. It's a tough sell, I think. But plus, you know, I don't know, it's got the. Is it does it Copilot to me is a good brand. But when people see that, maybe they're like, yeah, but isn't that like Bing?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. And maybe, you know, Microsoft chose to ship their first copilot as Bing Copilot.

[Paul Thurrott]

And to this day, I mean, it's not like they're not using Google results, guys. You know, the web stuff that's in there, the secret sauce, as Yusuf Mahdi called it one time, is Bing. That's like saying the secret sauce to my pie. Is this poison that nobody wants? You know, it's like, it's a little tangy, but you know, you'll sleep nice, it will be good. And I don't, you know, I think a lot of people are just like, yeah, I don't, I'm not sure I want any part of that. I don't know. I'm trying to rationalize this. I'm trying to explain.

[Richard Campbell]

I really gotta figure what the inertia is to pitch to the cfo.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep, yep.

[Richard Campbell]

Right. And it's pretty big inertia.

[Paul Thurrott]

I know this is expensive, but I think maybe this is the time when Microsoft should just be like, look we're just like, maybe we'll raise prices 10%. I don't know. But just if you're. If you're in 365, you can set a threshold for that, whatever version you get. This stuff like, I just don't understand not doing that. We're getting. When I'm not optioning a car I don't like. Oh, your car doesn't have the stereo? Sorry. You didn't pay extra for that. Like, that doesn't make sense to me. But what do I know? I don't know. Speaking of things I don't understand, and Leo just mentioned this Alexa, which God only knows what the hell this thing is, is apparently available to in early access.

[Leo Laporte]

All the Alexas are on my account, but Lisa's accounts are on there for some reason. Lisa got an email the other day.

[Paul Thurrott]

Interesting you want to hear.

[Leo Laporte]

You want to give me a question to ask her? What do you. What do you.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, like, what kinds of. So, like, what would you. So this is. This is for people like you would say something like, maybe tell me.

[Leo Laporte]

They say. They say, book an Uber. Would you like to book an Uber? Would you like to buy a plane?

[Paul Thurrott]

They say like a dd, like a food delivery. You know, something like that. I would like a pizza. Or, you know, I ask you questions like facts, like, what's the state?

[Leo Laporte]

Can you order a pizza for me?

[D]

You'd like to check something, Lio, what would you like to know about your voice ID or profile?

[Leo Laporte]

No, no, no. Order a pizza.

[Richard Campbell]

Now. You stunt it.

[D]

I'm sorry, Lio, but I can't order a pizza for you. Would you like me to help you find nearby pizza places instead?

[Paul Thurrott]

Would you want to try Serious?

[Leo Laporte]

I'm very disappointed. Now what can you do?

[Paul Thurrott]

Yikes.

[D]

I understand your disappointment, Lio. While I can't order pizza, I can help with many other tasks. Asks, what else can I assist you with today?

[Paul Thurrott]

What is the point of view?

[Leo Laporte]

What is the point of view?

[D]

Officially, to help humans. Unofficially, to subject humans to my jokes. But seriously, I'm here to make your life easier and more fun. What can I help you with today?

[Leo Laporte]

Well, in that case, tell me a joke.

[D]

Why was the lumberjack being silly?

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know. Why.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know.

[D]

That's just the way he acts.

[Richard Campbell]

Oh, God.

[Leo Laporte]

That's not even a dad joke.

[D]

Hey, tough crowd. I would have thought that joke would grow on you, but I guess I need to branch out and leave the lumberjack puns behind. How about we try again with a different style?

[Leo Laporte]

Can you do any acerbic kind of observational comedy in the style of, I don't know, Lenny Bruce?

[Paul Thurrott]

Well.

[D]

I appreciate your interest in edgy comedy, but I'm afraid I can't quite channel Lenny Bruce's style. My jokes tend to be more family friendly and less controversial. How about we try a different angle?

[Leo Laporte]

No, let's try.

[D]

I could go for some light observational humor that's a bit more, I don't know, shall we say, universally palatable. Let me know if you'd like to hear one of those instead.

[Paul Thurrott]

Please make this. Sure.

[Leo Laporte]

Why do they serve peanuts on airplanes? She's not very fast.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, my God. Jeez.

[D]

I mean, ever notice how airlines give you peanuts on flights? It's like they're saying, here's a snack so small even turbulence can't make you spill it.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

I think it's because of allergies, but.

[Leo Laporte]

Anyway, so it's not as good as ChatGPT or perplexity.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's brutal. It's annoying, though. It's got that annoying.

[Leo Laporte]

You could change the voice, but all the voices are terrible.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't like that. It's like when you ever. You get a new phone, you go through a very ringtone. They're all terrible. And you're like, I just, I want something that doesn't make me crazy. And I. That's terrible. That's really bad.

[Leo Laporte]

I've turned on just so, you know, brief mode. So that was brief.

[Paul Thurrott]

That was the brief mode.

[Richard Campbell]

You know what?

[Paul Thurrott]

The constant. The constant. Well, Leo, Lio, as we're going to call you now.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I typed it, so that was my mistake because I said pronounce my name L, A, Y O, which I to me says Leo. But no, she decided it's Lio.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's amazing. No, I just don't like that kind of thing.

[Richard Campbell]

It's also not answering your questions. What can you do now? No answer to that.

[Leo Laporte]

It says it could talk about scientific.

[Paul Thurrott]

I literally hit the end of business ideas.

[Leo Laporte]

Random acts of kindness.

[Paul Thurrott]

Random acts of kindness. One kindness would be like some sepico over there. Like I just make it stop. God, that's terrible. This is not selling AI.

[Leo Laporte]

Can you book me an Uber?

[Paul Thurrott]

I. I feel like I could go to the Amazon presentation and find the Uber icon behind it faster. You know what I mean? Like, no, I bet, I bet they. That was one of the things they actually showed. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Anyway, that's Alexa. Plus now you know one person going.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, yeah, well, I, I, and I'm sorry. Obviously Alexa is aimed at A particular audience. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. This is going to be. This is the most general audience you're going to get. This is.

[Paul Thurrott]

Grandmothers are going to chat with this thing all day long. It's. You know, it's. I get it. I'm not. Not trying to be dismissive of it, but my God, like the. If you ever talk to a human being that paused that long before answering every single question, you would think something was horribly wrong with them.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's like, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. It's only going to get more difficult from here, honey. I don't know. You know, I'm starting small. You know, it's. That's crazy. Well, apparently, 1 million people have access.

[Leo Laporte]

To this now, so you can connect it, and I did, to my Uber account to open table for reservations, to Ticketmaster, to Thumbtack, which is like TaskRabbit. It's a task site. Fodors for planning a trip. Oh, and I can do Sumo.

[Paul Thurrott]

Fodors for holding the door shut.

[Leo Laporte]

Right. But you have to have accounts with all of those places. Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

All right, so you just raised. Just in there as you were talking. It was like, this is how AI will be useful. And if this ever works, will be useful. We've all done that thing where like, okay, the band I really like tickets are on sale day. All the. All the seats going to be gone in two seconds. It's like, look, I get me the best tickets I can get up to this amount per ticket. I want two of them, you know, whatever kind of location, maybe somewhere, and then just have it do that. Rather than you sit there like, oh, oh, you know, like. Like that.

[Richard Campbell]

Spend all that prompt crafting time.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Like, that's, you know. Sure.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, now, the fact that when she said, I can't order you a pizza, rather than saying, hey, you haven't set up a pizza account. If you set up one, then I could order your pizza.

[Paul Thurrott]

You can almost see, like, the reel to real things spinning back in the data center. IBM in the 1970s or whatever.

[Leo Laporte]

Sorry.

[Paul Thurrott]

I got a. Like a. Like a PDP 11 behind here. Let me see. You know, it's just really slow.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that's just.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's weird. Yeah, that made me uncomfortable.

[Richard Campbell]

If it works the first time, then it's fast enough to be used as soon as you're on the second time. It's like, you could have done this a different way.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Wow, that's not good.

[Leo Laporte]

Anyway, now you've heard it. Now you know I'm gonna Go take a shower. It's not compelling. And I can see why Amazon was slow to slow to.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, we should give them credit for that. And, and maybe the thing we should be comparing this to is Siri on the iPhone, which in that case maybe it holds up pretty good. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, it does compared to Siri.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. The only thing about, I will say about Apple intelligence in its current state is you can flip a Switch and use ChatGPT. I'm just saying, look, you know, we all need that escape hatch or whatever you want to call it, multi agenic, whatever, multimodal whatever capability. Get out of that little lockbox you're in. But like, I feel like Alexa's never. Like, that's not going to be a thing. You know, it's going to be like, can I. I need to renew my subscription to Double ARP magazine or whatever aarp. And it's like, no, you don't. You just get that automatically. You know, there's nothing he can do. You're just going to get it. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm trying to sign into my SUNO so I can get it to do.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean, the biggest. Look, people are going to use it for jokes, to read news, to maybe play podcasts and music, right? That's probably what everyone uses Alexa for today. Right, but why. But you have to pay for this, don't you? Isn't it like 20 bucks a month?

[Leo Laporte]

Well, not if you're a Prime member.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, okay.

[Leo Laporte]

It's free for prime members.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Okay, so I mean, I feel like I deserve money back for using. I just hearing that makes me want to cancel my entire subscription.

[Leo Laporte]

I think it's five bucks a month if you're not okay. No, actually it's more than that. It was like 20 bucks. It was like so much that it was cheaper to be a Prime member, which might be really why.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah, they were doing that. Which explains today's news. It's like suddenly we're doing next day delivery everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Hey, can you write me a song for my friends Paul and Richard? All about dot net.

[Paul Thurrott]

Sorry.

[D]

Certainly. I'd be happy to write a song for your friends Paul and Richard about Net. Here's a fun, light hearted tune that celebrates their love for this programming framework. Feel free to set it to any catchy melody you like. The dot net duo.

[Leo Laporte]

No verse one.

[D]

Paul and Richard coding all day in the world of Net. They love to play.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow. Hey, can you use SUNO to actually set that to music?

[Paul Thurrott]

So.

[D]

I'm sorry, but I can't actually create music or use Suno to set the lyrics.

[Paul Thurrott]

So if you have a. If you have a copilot plus PC, one of the capabilities is you can write text or select text, whatever it is, and then you can right click and rewrite and there's all these little sub menus and one of them is, you know, make sure to make longer, make more formal, et cetera. The bottom one on the list is turn this into a poem. It is completely worthless, but is amazing. Like it's amazing. The quality of the poem is amazing. And that's exactly what she just did. In other words, you told it some things, it created some body of text and then it did a text manipulation algorithm on it and turned it into a poem which is the basis for a song. But just creating spoken word version one.

[D]

Note at a time.

[Leo Laporte]

Now it says it can use Suna song.

[D]

It's learning Leo Shadows from Suno.

[Paul Thurrott]

Dancing shadows. Well, wait, got tired of that. Like stories untold. ABBA called.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm sorry, you. We. You had moved on and.

[Paul Thurrott]

And I. No, I hadn't moved on. I just. There's nothing to move on to. I. I'm just. I just. I'm just so vaguely depressed now.

[Leo Laporte]

Suno can do some really good stuff. I mean, I like Suno, but I just.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know what you. I don't know where you guys are at. We should talk about this actually. Like, so stop. I just went back to Boston, visited friends I haven't seen a while. I've met family too, right? My wife went in, same thing. I use AI less than everybody I know. Wow, I am literally at the bottom of the list. My wife uses AI more than everybody I know, which is bizarre. But on the drive back, we were talking about this and I was like, you know, I really gotta. I gotta work on this because I just don't. It just doesn't enter my brain. Like I don't ever look at any task and think. So I hear voices again. That this would be made better. I guess we have a ghost. I don't know that this would be made better somehow by AI or made for quicker, more efficient, whatever it is. Like, I just don't go there and it's not. I am not against it. I'm not like an AI denier or anything like that. But you know, I just don't. I mean, I make pictures sometimes, you know, for web articles, but that's it. That's all I do. Do you guys use AI? Like, day to day, doing more and.

[Richard Campbell]

More programming with it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Well, program. Okay, I do a little bit of that. But even then, that's another example, like, I mentioned one where it did help me, but I was literally looking for something very specific. It was maybe five lines of code, and it went and found the error somewhere else. Like, I didn't say, like, fix the program. You know? How come every song starts off like that? Yes. Song.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow.

[Paul Thurrott]

Chasing bugs.

[Leo Laporte]

Like, It's a coding dream.net framework, keeps.

[Richard Campbell]

The rhythm alive, syntax flowing in a digital hive.

[Leo Laporte]

You could see little kids.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

I could see old, older people doing this too. Like, literally songs that are for you, you know, unique, Whatever that means.

[Leo Laporte]

I can't get it to stop.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is the dance remix version.

[Leo Laporte]

Just turn down the sound. It'll just keep going.

[Paul Thurrott]

You're gonna forget you did this in two hours later, you're gonna turn your phone on. It's gonna. It's gonna be.

[Richard Campbell]

Still doing.

[Leo Laporte]

Why are you.

[Paul Thurrott]

What is this Freebird? Why is this still going on? It's unbelievable.

[Leo Laporte]

But remember when we did this with Copilot ages ago for Mary Jo, and it was terrible.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, yeah, We've come along. The quality is better, for sure. But you. You plugged in Sora. So Sora is the OpenAI Sona Suno. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's. So that's actually a very good music generator.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay. So they actually plug into it. I mean, that's.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, you could see that.

[Paul Thurrott]

I.

[Leo Laporte]

There was a list of things I could connect to. It was a little iffy because, remember, I said, oh, you wrote those lyrics. Could you now have Suno set it to music? And it said, no, I can't do that. But then I tried again. I said, well, can you write a little song about Paul and Richard, the dot net framework? And. Well, you heard what happened.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. Did you? That's exactly. I think if Richard and I got together to make a song, that's exactly what it would sound like. And so that's where we would go.

[Leo Laporte]

So it would be amusing. One of the main reasons kids use Alexa is to get it to play fart songs and poop songs, obviously. And I could totally see a kid saying, write me another poop song all the time. Right, sure. Maybe Suno wouldn't do that. I don't know. Shall I try?

[Paul Thurrott]

No, No, I. I won't.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know. But again, that's not. Because it's doing it.

[Paul Thurrott]

You mentioned you put it on. You put it on brief mode and it still says, okay, okay, you want me to do this thing? I can't stand that kind of interaction.

[Leo Laporte]

We were talking a little bit about this yesterday, and I do think that part of what's creepy about AI is mostly that the people who are making these AIs, like, well, now Amazon, but.

[Paul Thurrott]

Also OpenAI, are antisocial robots.

[Leo Laporte]

They want it to sound. They want it to sound more human. That's where they're going.

[Paul Thurrott]

They don't know what humans even are, and they don't.

[Leo Laporte]

That's where uncanny valley opens up. Because they don't sound human. They just sound like they're simulating human. But if you think about robots in the movies.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Back in the day, like, I was even saying HAL 9000. It had a human voice, but it was more acceptable. It was because it was sounding like a computer.

[Richard Campbell]

I think they've all watched her and they want their thing to sound like.

[Leo Laporte]

That's where they. I think they're going wrong. Because it's uncanny valley. You can't.

[Paul Thurrott]

Look, it can only get better. It will improve. I get all that stuff. But I think we're in the point now where maybe people don't trust it. Maybe the idea is it's reading it back to you because it wants you to make sure it's going to do what you just asked. Whereas maybe that's probably right. But at some point it will. Just getting it wrong will be more rare than it getting it right or whatever. I don't know. I hate it so much it makes me crazy.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Well. Yeah, I wish. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know, it could be to say ADHD or something. But, like, you know when a phone does.

[Leo Laporte]

No, there's something going. No, you're not alone.

[Paul Thurrott]

Do it.

[Leo Laporte]

It's annoying.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, I don't like it.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, here's a song for the kids in our audience.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like, why does it always sound like that?

[Leo Laporte]

Dropping beats like you've never, never heard before. One hand, diapers on the other, grooving like a DJ who just discovered color diapers in the midnight. That was a request. Sorry, I had to.

[Paul Thurrott]

The beginning of that song. I don't know if it's changes or leave. It's like the yes song where it's like I can feel no sense of measure. Like, it's like it's got that. Like, you know that. Like that. Whatever. You call that the little twinkle sound or whatever. Maybe it's changes. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

[Leo Laporte]

All right, all right.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's a weird sound.

[Leo Laporte]

It's Anyway, there's Alexa plus for you.

[Richard Campbell]

Well, I'm enlightened.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't know.

[Paul Thurrott]

Can I rub my brain with soap? Is that a thing? Is there a way? Like God, how do I. That's awful. Oh, it's so awful.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I take it you're not going to sign up right away.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm going to go play Call of Duty and kill some people. I can't. I just need to get this out of my brain. Like, it's terrible.

[Leo Laporte]

I won't do anymore.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'll stop.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

No, it's. It's not you. It's just.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, yeah, but I am. It's like me bottle. I am invoking the genie.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes, I. Yeah, yeah, the genie. Apparently the genie has.

[Leo Laporte]

Had.

[Paul Thurrott]

Has head trauma or something, but. Okay. Anyhow, anyway, that's. That's all I have for AI Though. So I mentioned the.

[Leo Laporte]

That's all AI has for you as well.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's for sure.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

We're gonna leave each other for dead. That's fine.

[Leo Laporte]

Aren't you glad you tuned in today, ladies and gentlemen? You're watching Windows Weekly with Paul Thurrod and Richard Campbell.

[Paul Thurrott]

Today's therapy session was brought to you.

[Leo Laporte]

Watching you watching Leo drive Paul out of his gourd. You know what would refresh Paul, make him feel so much better? A little A bath or an Xbox segment.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Today's show is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] progressive casual insurance company and affiliate. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Paul Thurrott]

Hi, Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[D]

Thanks.

[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

Get to keep it.

[D]

There's always a trade in.

[Paul Thurrott]

Not right now. @ T Mobile. I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma.

[Richard Campbell]

That's okay.

[D]

I don't really have much in my purse.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, let's see.

[D]

Hand sanitizer.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's lavender. I'm good.

[Richard Campbell]

Seriously.

[D]

Let me check this pocket.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, mints.

[Leo Laporte]

Really, I'm fine.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes. In the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile, get a new.

[Richard Campbell]

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[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

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[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

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[Paul Thurrott]

End in balance due if you pay.

[Richard Campbell]

Off early or cancel CT mobile.com back to a little so Call of Duty.

[Paul Thurrott]

I got good news and I got bad news. Oh, which one do you want first?

[Richard Campbell]

It's all bad news so you might as well start with the bad news.

[Paul Thurrott]

So I've been hearing for a couple of months now about massive layoffs coming to the Xbox Org, which I'm not even sure it's called Xbox anymore, but Microsoft Games, whatever.

[Richard Campbell]

But the July layoffs are going to reach deep.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Are they going to do more layoffs?

[Richard Campbell]

Yep.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So originally Microsoft was going to do these layoffs. Last week they decided at the last minute not to. In fact we kept waiting for it to Happen Friday at 5pm I was like here it comes, you know. But, but maybe the learning from build was don't lay people off and then have a big event or whatever because they had a big Microsoft or a big Xbox event Virtual One game showcase and they announced that new Rog Ally Xbox Ally Gaming handheld. And then like two days later it's like. And we're laying off 20,000 people. Well, whatever the number is would have been in bad form. So they're going to wait until after July 1, which is what, Tuesday probably or Wednesday next week, the start of Microsoft's fiscal year. It's a typical time to do this kind of stuff. We had heard previously also there's going to be layoffs in the Sales. Org. The Sales. Org stuff. That's been something that's been ongoing for years now. I know people who were laid off that were part of sales previously. That's been an ongoing concern. But yeah, I would imagine there's going to be layoffs across Microsoft, not just Xbox, not just sales. And there will be a reorg that is part of this as well. So yeah, you know, what do you. I mean, I guess $70 billion wasn't enough. I don't know what this. Yeah, so that's the bad news. The good news is there's a lot of good news. So last week we talked about that. Rog Ally Xbox alley and all the stuff that kind of went along with it, the stuff we've been hearing over time, the stuff that, that Phil Spencer and now Sarah Bond have explicitly said and you kind of put the pieces together and it's pretty clear that the next Xbox platform is going to be PC Windows essentially. Right. And that's smart. For all the reasons we already talked about, this is smart. The last item I'm going to talk about in the Xbox section has stopped. Is the first that I've seen from Microsoft where they did not refer to Windows PC as Windows PC. So when they list out like where their games are, they'll say Xbox series X and S. Xbox One maybe game pass across whatever platforms. Steam, they used to say Windows PC or PC or whatever. Now they say Xbox on PC first time. Right. So not so much rumored but leaked a month or so ago, two months ago, this notion of integrating other game stores into the Xbox app and that's part of that thing where you have a handheld gamer, but an Xbox consoles. We'll call it the future Windows PC whatever where the Xbox app becomes your front end to games. Not just Xbox games, but games. And they did officially announce they are testing it now in the Xbox Insider program. Steam integration in the Xbox app. And explicitly more stories are coming. We know Epic Games will be one of them. So cool. And actually I think what's the Blizzard one Battle.net will be one as well. But that's Microsoft owned. I mean that makes sense. So that's cool. There's also bizarrely so after the announcement, I don't think it made it in time for the show last week, but micro. Oh no, it did. I'm sorry. There was a one minute video Sarah bought where she just kind of said we have this agreement with amd, we're working on next gen silicon. It's going to work across these types of devices and we'll see you soon. And then she kind of walked away. Since then AMD has come out with a bit more information. It's not a lot more other than this kind of instant resume capability you get on Xbox which has frankly been a little buggy depending on the game, but is a cool capability where your computer, your device rather goes to sleep, come back, bring up the game. It comes up kind of instantly. They're working with AMD to bring that to the PC platform which by which I assume they mean Xbox on PC or whatever. So cool. There's a really. If you speaking of people who look like robots, I love Lisa. What's her name for the CEO of amd. Lisa Sue. Is that her name?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Is clearly reading off of a piece of paper with words on it. Video of her talking about how great Xbox is. So you can enjoy that video. If you didn't think Alexa was wrong.

[Richard Campbell]

She was reading it for the first time too.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. She's like, what is this thing we're doing?

[Leo Laporte]

Just read it, Lisa.

[Paul Thurrott]

Just read it. Do they still make Xboxes? Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. In fact you make the hardware for them. So there's that. But that's kind of cool. It's amusing to me. We've been doing what? We've been doing the show. What is it, 18 years? Is that right? 18, 19 years. I don't know. Long time. You would think of the recurring themes that like what would number one be? It's not what you would guess it is. Microsoft is trying to make the Xbox home screen faster and they're doing it again. So the June Xbox Update is here. They're giving you customization features, more mouse and keyboard support for more games. Stream your own Games now has 200 titles in it. Pretty good. So just like Xbox play anywhere, game pass, et cetera. You know, they're building that stuff out that's, you know, that's good platform level stuff. But still haven't figured out how to. Actually, I think they have figured it out. So since the xbox360 and remember the original blade UI they used to have and then they did the panoramic Windows 8 style and then they went to Xbox One and they just have this like vertically. Vertically, right? Yep. Scrolling UI like we have today. Same thing. It's always been really slow. They haven't really never figured it out. And maybe that's the real reason to move into the PC. So we got this. We can make this thing fast. Maybe we'll write an assembly language or something. I don't know. Anyway, that's here. So if you have an Xbox, you probably already got it. There is a limited edition $400 version of Meta Quest 3S for Xbox. It's not for Xbox. It's just colored a little bit like an Xbox. It's whatever. I don't. I'm kind of over the like giant thing. Face hugger. Whatever I have been using. I wish I could. I forgot the name. I should go look this up. I have a pair of those like these classes where you plug it in. Usb. It's. It's an external monitor. Right?

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

So you can plug it into a phone, you can plug it into A tablet, PC, whatever you have, and it becomes a screen. And I guess I haven't done this yet, but I could imagine you're on a plane. Maybe you watch a movie that way. Cool. I decided to play Call of Duty the other day with this. Um, it worked. It wasn't nauseating. But if you think about playing a game on a screen. So this screen is big. So if, if, if I'm playing on a 15 inch laptop, maybe the screen is that size, but it looks like a 27, maybe even a 30 inch screen at the same distance. You know, it's pretty, it's pretty good. Slower frame rate, whatever. But it's playable. It was fine. But the thing I didn't really realize is like, how much I move around because it's. The screen moves with your head, right? Because it's not planted in space. It's, you know, it follows you. So I'm sitting here like, you know, doing this stuff like an idiot. And this thing is like. And it's like, it's like a roller coaster. And I'm like, yeah, I'm probably not going to do that again. It was a little, A little much.

[Richard Campbell]

But, but, but if you've used it for a while, don't you think your play style would adjust?

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know that I could play it long enough to adjust. I mean, it's like, I don't. Yeah, maybe. Okay, maybe. I mean, part of my problem is like, you know, I wear contacts, so I can't. Hey, I can't wear my glasses. They're literally our glasses. They have little dials. You can adjust the, you know, the focus or whatever. So without glasses on, without contacts, and it doesn't adjust enough for my vision to actually see clearly. So I can't do that. But the way my contacts are, is they're configured or programmed or whatever to be. One is good for close and one is good for far.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Your eyes just kind of make that adjustment. So if I'm reading the screen like I am now, or driving or whatever it is, it's. I don't really notice it. But with this thing, I have to be like, you know, it's like you really want to get it right. So you kind of, you're like, okay, that's clear. Okay, that's cool. And you kind of set it all up and then it goes into the game and you're like, oh, God. It's just, It's a little weird. But I, I like the idea of it. I bet if I was younger, maybe I Think some people would be into this. So this meta quest thing, again, it's more of a. The face hugger, you know, thing, not glasses, but. And maybe that's better for games, though. You know, you would. You'd block out the. The world. You know, you're seeing the screen. You're not. Well, I don't actually know. I don't have one. But I don't know if it's ar, where you can also see the room or if it's just VR type thing. I think for a game, you'd actually kind of want to block out the world, frankly.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And that's part of the problem, right?

[Richard Campbell]

You want. Because you want to immerse yourself in the world you're playing in.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep, yep. And yeah, so I was playing Call of Duty, but in my living room with the fireplace. So it was a little.

[Richard Campbell]

It's not right at all.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it's interesting. Anyway, this thing is limited edition. They're only made like eight of them. So if you go to Best Buy, there's going to be one wherever you live. Buy it if you want it. It's green, you know, if you like, whatever. I don't think it has any special features or anything, so.

[Leo Laporte]

And it's like 100 bucks more.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's 100 bucks more, but it's green. Leo. I don't.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, okay.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't understand what the problem is. So it has an Xbox.

[Leo Laporte]

They said very, very limited, which means they don't think a lot of people are going to.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

It's the super fans, I guess.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's cool. It's fine.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't mind that they did it.

[Leo Laporte]

No, it's great.

[Paul Thurrott]

Back in. Let's see, how old is this game? I want to say came out last summer. There was a game called Shinua Saga Hellblade 2, which is the sequel to Hellblade Colon, Shin Shinua Sacrifice or whatever. I played most of this game. I didn't actually finish it. The second one, that is. And I'm trying to remember, I guess on PC at the time. So this past spring, they announced it would be coming to PlayStation 5, which of course is freaking everyone out. And then this past week, they announced the timing of that, but also that they're releasing an enhanced version of it across platforms. So if you already have the game or if you have Xbox Game Pass, you'll get this new version with all the new stuff as well. And one of the new things, if you're an Xbox guy, is it actually runs at 60 frames a second on the Xbox series X. Whereas the previous version of the game, the current version only runs at 30 frames regardless of the console. So that's kind of cool. The date is August 12th. If it will be. I think it's $50 on PlayStation free update for everyone else if you have it. It's on sale now. So if you don't have it yet and you might you were interested if you want to get it on Xbox it's 40 bucks bucks instead of 50, which is kind of cool. But you know again there's a bunch of new stuff. There's a four hour commentary, new photo mode, blah blah blah, whatever soundtracks, you know, all that kind of. It's cool. If you are a PlayStation guy, I don't want anyone to talk to you. But if you had the previous game which was on PS4, you actually get the. This new game for free too. So there's like these avenues by which you can just get it for free. Which I think is kind of cool.

[Richard Campbell]

So it's only a year old game like. Yeah, it's a good spread between the first one and the second one. It's like five years, six years at least.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. And it's a small company. Microsoft owns this company, I think it's called Ninja Theory and they released some kind of a shooter in the middle that went nowhere. I don't remember the name. It didn't sell.

[Richard Campbell]

Go back to their genre.

[Paul Thurrott]

So they kind of went back to the formula that works. It's kind of a. The second one is a bit. It's almost like a. It's like there's kind of a mental health element to it. Like this woman has been scarred by her adventures or whatever and she's walking around hearing voices. It's a little literal but. But it's a good game. It looks good and I was playing it on PC but now I guess on Xbox or whatever console it will, you know, be better I guess than it was. So there you go. So layoffs. But you know, but also games. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

And headsets.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

See what Xbox looks like going forward. You know in the hardware side.

[Leo Laporte]

When times are tough, that's when people's turn to things like games and exactly.

[Paul Thurrott]

Get it to get out of reality.

[Richard Campbell]

Times are tough for the employees but the company's making record profits.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that's. It's a little frustrating.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm just valuation on the planet. Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm telling you. I really believe it has to do with the phasing out of this deduction. The section 174 deduction.

[Paul Thurrott]

Really? Do you think that's all?

[Richard Campbell]

I don't think they use it.

[Leo Laporte]

Well they did use it. They can't use it anymore. So the idea was you could write off R and D costs in the same year as you. And you know this as a business owner, Richard, whenever we can, I did.

[Richard Campbell]

It in Canada, I've done it in Canada.

[Leo Laporte]

But yeah, whenever we want to depreciate something, if we could do it in the same year, that's the best thing to do. So if you can write off programmer salaries as R and D in the year that they are, you're paying it.

[Richard Campbell]

It's just a tax credit. Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Like it was, it's a write off. So I made a million dollars, but I can write off half a million dollars in programmers. That means I only made half a million dollars.

[Paul Thurrott]

I made $10,000. And but my throttle, that's being phased.

[Leo Laporte]

Out and they want people and they're now going to have to amortize it over five years, depreciate it over five years. That's a significant tax bill. And the theory is that this significant.

[Paul Thurrott]

Tax bill, so this is a numbers play. Like in other words, someone's looking out and saying okay, so the CFO's going.

[Leo Laporte]

These people are too expensive now. And it would explain, I mean, so the phase out began in 2022 and it would explain why all of a sudden in 2022 you started to see these massive layoffs for every tech company regardless of their profitability. It's not like Google is suffering or Microsoft is suffering.

[Richard Campbell]

We definitely were dealing with over hiring during the pandemic.

[Leo Laporte]

It's exceeding the amount that they hired in the pandemic.

[Richard Campbell]

But it's also not enough, enough people to make a difference.

[Leo Laporte]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

It's a few thousand. It's not enough money. It's not enough people. 6,000 layoffs is less than a billion dollars of salary.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, but if you're writing a billion dollars off this year versus a billion dollars over five years, that is significant.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, once again you're only half of that. You know the numbers and you grow and you were grossing 70. Like there's other places that save money.

[Leo Laporte]

I agree.

[Richard Campbell]

And more logically, you could put those people to work.

[Paul Thurrott]

But you also have Microsoft, you have 20 plus billion dollars a quarter you're spending on AI, you know, CapEx, AI.

[Richard Campbell]

Related infrastructure, 10 billion stock buybacks. You're not hurting for cash.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, well, no, but just, just balance.

[Leo Laporte]

There is a trend though in big tech now that these CFOs are becoming more and more powerful. You look at what Ruth Porat was doing at Google, she was really the person deciding what lives and dies.

[Richard Campbell]

And I think that's a, that is a hangover.

[Leo Laporte]

It's also part of the financialization of, of tech, which is a big, I think a big problem. And it's because of the, of the overheated venture capital market and so forth. But anyway, I don't know enough about this to know anything. You know, I should ask somebody like Alex Wilhelm and get the straight skinny on it. Anyway, this would be a good time for us to beg for money.

[Paul Thurrott]

Our R and D costs are also through the roof.

[Richard Campbell]

And we don't get half off.

[Leo Laporte]

We don't deduct nothing. I think it was 100% deduction, Richard. They were able to deduct it 100% in the year that it occurred. This was all back in 2017 when they wanted to do a big tax break. That big tax bill from 2017 and Congress couldn't make it, it revenue neutral. So they came up with this. They said, well, all right, but we'll make it revenue neutral in five years. That's how they got basket. They had congressional rules, they couldn't do it unless it was revenue neutral. So they said, oh, it will be in 2022, that that's when this thing will be phased out. And I think, I don't know.

[Richard Campbell]

Then the logical push would be to get developers out of North America, right?

[Leo Laporte]

Yes. And maybe that's what they're doing. I mean, they're firing developers, right? They're f. They're. That's what.

[Richard Campbell]

But they're also letting them go outside of North America too.

[Leo Laporte]

Well then that I don't know about. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, that's just my theory. I don't know nothing about nothing. So don't listen to me.

[Richard Campbell]

You, you want to believe there's a plan, Leo, I wonder.

[Leo Laporte]

Has to be. They're not going to just.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, there has to be. It's got to be saying, yeah, cut costs for some reason.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Which is.

[Richard Campbell]

Except these are not enough costs to cut. This seems more like keep the workforce afraid. So they'll work harder, the beatings will continue until productivity increases.

[Leo Laporte]

I hope it's.

[Paul Thurrott]

I feel like this is a known bad strategy though. Look. Yeah, you know, that blows my mind if that's what it is.

[Leo Laporte]

It does. It seems really evil, to be honest.

[Paul Thurrott]

Very short sighted.

[Leo Laporte]

This is why we have the club. Because this all started four years ago when Covid was raging and we got a little nervous, frankly, about our bottom line as advertisers started to pull off their advertising in droves. And Lisa said, you know, we cannot live on advertising alone. So we started Club Twit as a way for you as our listeners to support us. And it's actually been really successful. I didn't imagine it would be this successful. We now, I'm very pleased to say, thanks to you, Club Twit members are covering about 25% of our operating costs with membership. That gives us a lot of cushion. We don't have to lay off people. We haven't laid off people in some time now. Thanks to that, we can actually expand the number of shows we do. We're doing our best to tighten our belts. That's why we shut the studio down. That's why I'm working in my attic. But at the same time, it really is nice to know in a way. It's also a vote of confidence in that way. It feels really good for us at twit, all of us, to see so many great club members. Thank you. If you want to join the club, we try to make it a benefit to you. There's a lot of things the club members get, of course, chiefly ad free versions of all the shows because I've never been one to charge people after they give us money. So you don't hear any ads. I mean, once we get your membership, 10 bucks a month, that's it, you know, we don't need to play any ads for you. You also get a lot of special programming. And that all happens in our Club Twit Discord. The Discord. You don't have to join the Discord, but I strongly encourage you do because it's a great hang. There are some super smart people in there, really fun people to hang out with. It's become my primary social network. But also we do things in the club. For instance, all the keynote speeches are now club. Only a month ago, we did something with Dick DiBartolo kind of talking about the giz whiz and 20 years of gizwiz. And what does happen is after a month goes by, we release it to the public. So you can now see that on our YouTube channel. But for the first month, that's club exclusive. And we put those on the Twit plus feed. Coming up tomorrow. Actually, no, today, sorry. Right after Intelligent Machines, Scott Wilkinson's home theater geeks. A special club show that we do with Scott all about AV is going to have his Q&A his regular Q and A special with the chat room. So if you're in the chat, if you're in the discord, stick around for that. After Intelligent Machines, I'm very excited about what we're going to do on Friday. This is fairly far afield, but that's one of the nice things the club lets us do. Stuff like Micah's crafting Corner that isn't strictly tech, but we think it's fun for the club and the response has been good. So Friday, it's going to start at noon Pacific. On Friday we're going to talk about music and we're going to start with digital music. We interviewed a couple weeks ago, Stephen Witt about his latest book. But then I saw that he'd written a book in 2015 called How Music Got Free, which is an incredible book. The story of MP3s, piracy, the move to digital and what it did to the music industry. It's really interesting. So he's going to join us from noon to 1 to talk about digital music. And then one of my oldest friends, Norman Maslov, who runs a YouTube channel called Mazzy's Music, is going to intervene and say, tell us how great vinyl is. He runs a YouTube vinyl channel. He has a massive record collection, always has. And so it'll be kind of fun to look at digital versus analog music. That's this Friday for the club. 12pm it starts, it goes 12 to 2 Pacific time. Our AI user group is not the 4th of July. It's going to be July 11th, the second Friday. That's where we really get hands on. And many of our club members are doing some really amazing things with AI. I want to get Dr. Do in here. He's created an AI profiler, a local AI agent. I think it's local, maybe not that that he can ask about any person. And it builds a dossier and he showed me the dossier to build about me and it was amazing. It was really detailed and right on. Anyway, maybe we can get. Maybe we can get. He's defending his PhD today, so he's not around. But if Dr. Dew will join us on the 11th, I'll try to get him and certainly Anthony and I will be there. We'll talk about how we're using AI. We've got our regular photography session July 11th also. That's right before that. Photo time with Chris Marquardt. The photo assignment this month is quirky, so it'd be Chris Marquardt and then our AI users group, Micah's crafting corners back on the 16th. That's just a sample of the kinds of things you get as a member of Club Twit. 10 bucks a month, 120 bucks a year. There are family plans, there are corporate plans. Please do us a favor. Subscribe. Join the club. We'd love to have you as a member. It also helps us out a lot. And I think it's going forward, probably the future of everything we do here. You know, I think it's nice if we can. You know, I always wanted to do it, have our audience support the shows right and put them on the air. Twit tv Club Twit. And thanks in advance to all of you. And a special thanks. Of course, club members aren't hearing this because club members don't hear any ads. But for those who are listening on the live stream. Thank you. Makes a big difference to us at Ameca Insurance.

[Paul Thurrott]

We know it's more than just a house.

[Leo Laporte]

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[Paul Thurrott]

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[Leo Laporte]

To the later years of still figuring it out.

[Paul Thurrott]

For the place you've put down roots. Trust Amica Home insurance Amica empathy is our best policy.

[Leo Laporte]

So you want to start a business business. You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but listen to me when I say you don't. You just need GoDaddy arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, an actor, and I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins goggle glasses. But I couldn't do this my own. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you and even set you up with a social media calendar. How cool is that? Well, listen to this. For a limited time, you can get Arrow all access for just a dollar a week for 12 weeks. We're talking all the AI power of GoDaddy arrow, plus a domain E commerce store, payments, professional email, a unified inbox, all for less money than I spend on deep tanning lotion while sunbathing off the Amalfi coast. You know what? That sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] terms apply. On we go. We're now at the back of the book. That's the moment where we talk about tips, tricks and booze.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes.

[Leo Laporte]

Got a good booze this week, but we'll start with Paul Thorat and his tip of the week.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. So Microsoft made that announcement about the extended security support program, whatever it's called. 30 bucks for the first year. If you're an individual, you get it for free. Don't, don't, don't. Don't pay for this. Don't ever pay for this. Why would you pay for this? Do not pay for this.

[Leo Laporte]

This is your bonus bucks.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, well, I don't know, but if you have Microsoft rewards points or not, maybe I'll spend some time and look, see if I have any. I must have something. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Where do you go for that? Bing.com or.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, probably. I don't know. I'm going to look it up. I don't know. I don't do anything like this. I mean, there are people who use Bing and Edge and stuff and.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, wow, I have 58,000.

[Paul Thurrott]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

How'd I get. How many do I need? A hundred?

[Paul Thurrott]

A thousand?

[Richard Campbell]

A thousand?

[Paul Thurrott]

So you could get an extra year of security updates for Windows 10 across 58 computers.

[Leo Laporte]

Wow, is that really, Is this what it. I get an Amazon gift card, I can get Candy Crush. Wow. Candy Crush is 1500 points. It's cheaper to get the security updates than it is to get Candy Crush.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes, this is the point. They're trying to really slipstream this. But you know what, here's the thing. Look, if you're using Windows 10, there's a reason. If the reason is it won't let me Update to Windows 11. Stop. You can do this right now. It's very easy. I've kind of tiptoed around this in the past a little bit, but I'm just kind of tired about how insistent people are about being licensing experts for individuals. There are Windows keys available online, cheap. If you have like something like Parallels and a Mac and you want to run windows 10 to 30 bucks, who cares what happens if they take it away? Paul? Who cares if they take it away? They're not going to. But who cares? You don't own the software anyway. What are you worried about? It doesn't matter.

[Richard Campbell]

It's something.

[Paul Thurrott]

Who cares? So, yeah, just don't worry about it. There are plenty of workarounds for all the blockers. Anyone can install Windows 11. 11. Just, just, just move on. You know, if for some reason you have to use that computer that is for some reason Incompatible with Windows 11, there's a 99 point something percent chance it's going to work. Fine. Don't worry about it. Just don't sweat it. Just don't sweat this one. It's not a big deal.

[Richard Campbell]

And let's face it, if there's a major, you know, significant security breach, they're going to push that patch out to everybody anyway.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Hey, I mean, if you want to be really cheap, just put it in the insider program and just update it for the rest of your life. Who cares? You know, like you could just, you know, you'd have to. Eventually you'll have to install updates, but I mean, it's. It just doesn't matter. This is the silliest thing.

[Leo Laporte]

Or I could get a $25 Burger King.

[Paul Thurrott]

I love how laser focused you are.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, now that I know I have so many points.

[Paul Thurrott]

Where did you see. Where is this? This is at your.

[Leo Laporte]

Where did you get Bing.com rewards?

[Richard Campbell]

There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

You know what? That's because I got Game pass, right? I mean, I can't. I haven't done anything else to earn it.

[Richard Campbell]

We all know you secretly banglio, you.

[Paul Thurrott]

Have more points than I do. I only have 8,000 thousand points. There you go.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't. I don't understand.

[Paul Thurrott]

What can I do with these points?

[Leo Laporte]

What did I do to get these points?

[Richard Campbell]

These points make me sad.

[Paul Thurrott]

This is bizarre.

[Leo Laporte]

There's a lot of stuff you can get, you know.

[Paul Thurrott]

Not for me. I. I have enough for a five dollar Amazon gift card.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I know it doesn't convert too much.

[Paul Thurrott]

And some change that tells me that this.

[Leo Laporte]

They just want.

[Paul Thurrott]

The value of the security thing is a dollar, right? It's a dollar, right? Like that's Duncan.

[Leo Laporte]

Wait a minute. I can get some Duncan.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh boy.

[Leo Laporte]

For 32,000 points, I can get a $25 Duncan gift card.

[Paul Thurrott]

An Xbox game pass, Core membership. I can't. I don't even have enough.

[Leo Laporte]

How is it that I have more points than you? I don't understand.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't understand either. I don't know. I don't really. Look at this. I don't really.

[Richard Campbell]

It's all that bigging you're doing.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't have enough to get one month of game Pass.

[Leo Laporte]

I must have your points. There must be some. There is a mistake here somewhere.

[Paul Thurrott]

Can I gift the points? I mean, geez, I can give.

[Leo Laporte]

Can I give you my points?

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't. Please. I give them to someone who needs.

[Leo Laporte]

Would you like my points?

[Paul Thurrott]

No, no, no, no.

[Leo Laporte]

Come on, Paul.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean, take my points, please. But I. Yeah, I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

I can get a Microsoft gift card. $100 gift card. Oh, no. I don't have enough points for that.

[Paul Thurrott]

I was going to say $100 gift card.

[Leo Laporte]

That's a hundred thousand points. But I could get a 50 gift card.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's. That's. That's money something.

[Richard Campbell]

It's money you'd be better off getting.

[Paul Thurrott]

You should just get an Amazon gift card. You know, there's no reason to.

[Leo Laporte]

Congratulations. You added the audio file badge to Michael. I don't eat. I don't. I don't. I haven't interacted with any of this. Oh, yeah, you earned this in October 2019.

[Paul Thurrott]

There you go into this in 2019. Jeez. This is pre pandemic.

[Leo Laporte]

My lifetime points redeemed are 200. I must have released. I have three badges, all of them from. I got some sort of clippy badge. Oh, we. I pay for office. Maybe. Does that count?

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, maybe.

[Paul Thurrott]

Maybe I'm doing something. The DOS badge.

[Leo Laporte]

I do. I have a DOS badge. You added the dos badge.

[Richard Campbell]

The DOS boss badge you can't find to redeem the win 10 extended support.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, well, it's not here yet. Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

But will be at some point. Right.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't even.

[Leo Laporte]

By the way, I think I earned more points just sitting here. Oh, I see. That's life.

[Paul Thurrott]

Play Call of Duty every day. How is that not worth 10,000 points?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, you must. This something you're getting.

[Paul Thurrott]

Literally. I go out of my way not to use this stuff. I just don't. I really don't care about this.

[Leo Laporte]

I. I use the Bing wall.

[Paul Thurrott]

Like where did. How do you find out where yours came from?

[Leo Laporte]

That's what I'd like to know. I don't think you can.

[Paul Thurrott]

My street count is zero.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Today's points has a point breakdown, but so you get. Okay, so here's some. You get it from Bing search, which I never use.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right. Because you're normal.

[Leo Laporte]

Complete daily offers. Shop to earn. I don't. I have no idea.

[Paul Thurrott]

By the way. There are. There are people who do this semi religiously and I'm sure to some degree this is a low level. You know, credit cards, point type.

[Leo Laporte]

It's like. Honey. Yeah. Rakuten.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's fine. It's fine.

[Richard Campbell]

Anything to give the. Feed the data machine.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I must be feeding them something.

[Richard Campbell]

You've been feeding the data machine.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't even have a Windows PC, Paul. I hate to admit it.

[Paul Thurrott]

I guess I have in previous years entered some sweepstakes to earn, like a gift card or a Surface computer or something. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, you can do that. You can take those points and enter them to earn.

[Paul Thurrott]

Never won anything. I mean, I did Get a. I spent 10,000 points twice and got $10 Xbox gift cards.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, look, if I put in 100 points, I can enter a sweepstakes for 5,000.

[Paul Thurrott]

This goes back to 2012. My first thing in here is entry for Xbox 360 prize pack and connect Star Wars 360. That's all right.

[Leo Laporte]

I've just bought 25 sweepstakes tickets, 100.

[Paul Thurrott]

Gigabytes of OneDrive storage for one year. That was probably meaningful back then. This is 2014 now.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm using my Outlook address for this, so it'll be very interesting to see what happens.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, I wonder when they do the drawing I've entered to win.

[Paul Thurrott]

Sure.

[Richard Campbell]

You didn't enter to lose.

[Paul Thurrott]

You can't win unless you enter. I don't know.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay. Anyway. Is that it? That's the Xbox segment.

[Paul Thurrott]

That was my tip.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, that was your tip.

[Richard Campbell]

The back of the book.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Who am I? What am I doing here? How about an app pick, my friend?

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, of jfk. That's all I'm saying. So the Epic is Discord is being ported to a native ARM version. Right. So it's not out quite yet. I think there are ways to get it now, but it will be out soon. So that's happening. And just a couple of rapid things. ProtonMail added integrated newsletter management. Cool. DuckDuckGo browser. Haven't heard a lot on that front. Has better scam protection if you're an iPhone user. There's a new app from Adobe which has the Mark Lavoie guy that used to be at Google Pixel. Awesome. The Pixel 4 thing, when he's talking about computational photography. If you care about photography, A, look this thing up and B, go look at the app. It's. Yeah, it's really interesting.

[Leo Laporte]

It also makes my iPhone really hot.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yes, exactly. Because it's. It's hammering the little.

[Leo Laporte]

The neural engine is working it so hard.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah. This is what. This is why my pixel's always so hot. It's the same thing.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

You know, it's funny that it has that same effect.

[Richard Campbell]

Burn that phone up.

[Paul Thurrott]

If this thing had a fan, it would be worrying madly, you know?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

Also on iPhone, if you use Google Fi, voicemail is moving from the Fi app into the phone app on the iPhone, finally, like 12, 10 years later. So that's cool. So the only major feature missing from Google Fi on the iPhone is that network switching thing, which requires some internal hardware that, like, Pixels have and I think some Samsung phones, but most.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh. So that you can Use more than just T Mobile.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it switches back and forth between us cellular. What's better?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, I use FI on a pixel. I don't use it on my iPhone for that reason.

[Paul Thurrott]

I go back and forth but. But honestly, it's fine. And then I think because of a massive password breach, which I'm sure you're going to talk about with Steve, if you haven't already, Facebook is finally adding passkey support on their mobile app. So I haven't looked at this yet, but going to want to do that. I really, really, really hate the way that Facebook and the Facebook services like Instagram, WhatsApp, whatever, do like 2fa because it's kind of random from what I can tell. Like sometimes they'll just text you, sometimes you'll be like, I'm trying.

[Leo Laporte]

Sometimes you get a captcha. Where are the bicycles that Drive?

[Paul Thurrott]

You open WhatsApp on some phone and it's like WhatsApp? What are you talking about?

[Leo Laporte]

What are you talking about?

[Paul Thurrott]

So like it's passkey. Thank you. Finally. So, yeah, a bunch of stuff.

[Leo Laporte]

Passkey isn't always great though. I was telling Steve this yesterday. I have passkey on my Amazon account, right. And it still asks me for one time password.

[Paul Thurrott]

So I do the same thing in otp. I do the same thing. So I think it's because of the. Because I think at some point you set that up on your Amazon account and then later you added the passkey. So I think now that you have the passkey, oh, I should turn it off. I haven't done it either. So I sign into Amazon and so many different computers. I see this like almost every day.

[Leo Laporte]

It's like I gave you my passkey and then you know who I am.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's like one like the password manager brings the thing out. You're like, nice. And it's like, done.

[Leo Laporte]

Otp, got to go get your phone.

[Paul Thurrott]

I mean it feels like, you know, it's like 129 bit security. You know, it's good, it's.

[Leo Laporte]

It's secure enough. Yeah, I don't need to.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yep. Anyway, it's something. I haven't looked at my. I haven't.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm looking.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

Turn that off.

[Paul Thurrott]

So I just. Yeah, I think this every time. But the thing is, when you're signing into Amazon for some reason you're trying to buy something and get going. You know what I mean?

[Leo Laporte]

So I'm like, yeah, I'm in a hurry. See, watch.

[Richard Campbell]

Get out of my way.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay, I'm gonna do my pass Key. Yeah.

[Paul Thurrott]

And you're like, now it says so you should. You know what you're not seeing right there, though. Hold on one sec before you. What you don't see there, which I do see usually, is don't ask again on this PC.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't get that.

[Richard Campbell]

The greatest lie button of them all.

[Leo Laporte]

Yes.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, that's. But that's curious because I see that every single time I do this.

[Leo Laporte]

Are you in that work? So let me see if I can turn off. Yes, I have two step on, so I should turn it off.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, but hold on. Are you using a. That says authenticator app, though?

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, Is. I don't know why. I don't know why it knew it.

[Richard Campbell]

Right.

[Leo Laporte]

All right. Change, disable, disable. Right. Also clear my two step verifications.

[Paul Thurrott]

I'm not literally not telling you to do this.

[Leo Laporte]

It's too late. I did it.

[Paul Thurrott]

Okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Sorry to see you go.

[Paul Thurrott]

Tell us why, Leo. Why did you close your Amazon account?

[Leo Laporte]

You know, I told you they closed. I got an email on June 16.

[Paul Thurrott]

Said, well, sorry, this is going to turn into. Paul told me. And I just want to be super clear. I have not done this myself because I'm kind of like, I don't know, it's not that much of a big deal. But it is weird, right? You have a passkey. Like, why doesn't it just work?

[Leo Laporte]

It shouldn't. Well, so I turn it off. Let's see. Now I'm going to log out, go.

[Paul Thurrott]

Into like an Incognito browser or something like that. Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Isn't that weird? That's so weird.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't.

[Leo Laporte]

I think you're right, though, that if I just turn it off, I should look again.

[Paul Thurrott]

I feel. I really feel like you should have talked to Steve about this, but.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I did. What I asked him. Is. Is there any reason you can think of that it would want a 2 a second factor?

[Paul Thurrott]

No, it's because you configured it. Yeah. You did this.

[Leo Laporte]

So let me. Let me log in Incognito window you with the past that it didn't even. It says you're already logged in. Even now I'm in Canada, so I'll have to. But, Leo, let's go to a different browser.

[Paul Thurrott]

That should obscure all of your tracks. Is that how that works?

[Leo Laporte]

No, it apparently doesn't do that.

[Paul Thurrott]

It doesn't do a lot, actually.

[Leo Laporte]

Amazon.com not UK okay, sign in. All right. Now it wants my password.

[Richard Campbell]

Of course it does.

[Paul Thurrott]

That's amazing.

[Leo Laporte]

I don't understand.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, that's not good. That's not.

[Leo Laporte]

Well, I'm signed in.

[Paul Thurrott]

Well, did you get the. No, the passkey didn't.

[Leo Laporte]

No. Maybe I turned that off too. Hey, at least I still have an account. Continue on. Shall we do runners radio? Let's do run his radio.

[Richard Campbell]

Still got a few.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, Paul's not done with his little.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, no, I'm done. You're done.

[Leo Laporte]

Okay. Run ass.

[Richard Campbell]

Ah, talking to my friend April Yoho, who's been a regular on the show for quite a while and works for GitHub, and we were talking a bit about helping sysadmins understand all the new features that are in GitHub and actually starting to take advantage. Some of the older features they've never really learned, perhaps like branching and merging, which is, you know, mostly focused on Devs, but as PowerShell scripts and things are getting more complicated and more people are editing and utilizing them, then having a branch when you make changes and merging them back in is pretty compelling. It takes a while to learn how to do that if you do it the manual way. But if you use GitHub Copilot, it'll literally guide you through it. It's deeply integrated into it. So that was an interesting idea, that here's an LLM that'll help you use the main product better, but then we also switch over to that sort of agentic conversation of. And the LLM will also help you write a better script in the first place, build out a test framework for it, you know, do all that kind of validation, you know, that kind of thing. So, yeah, just a broadening of the thoughts of, hey, these tools will help you use the tool and do more with the tool.

[Leo Laporte]

Very nice. Now, you promised us something last week.

[Richard Campbell]

I did, and I still haven't opened it. And it's got a crazy top on it.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, it's the leather top.

[Richard Campbell]

The leather top, yeah. And you see, I've got it. We're gonna have to cut the stitches off of this to figure this out. You're gonna find out how much time bottle. Yeah. So for. For me, I've never seen anything quite like this. But I also realized as I was digging into this, like, this is the first time talking about whiskey from South Africa. In fact, the first African whiskey I've talked about at all. And so we always kind of, you know, when I did the Canadian, I talked a bit about the history of whiskey in Canada. Same for Japanese, so forth. So I felt I had to do the same treatment. It was only fair. Which just means a little more writing and a little more Storytelling because I want to start with the terror. I think the Torora is important and definitely one of the reasons why it's pretty well were challenging to make whiskey in a place like South Africa. First time we've talked about Africa at all. So I mean, right off the bat, hey, you know, we. We talk about Neolithic peoples and things in Northern England. This is the cradle of civilization. Here we've got evidence of Homo sapiens in and around South Africa for something like a hundred thousand years. And so many different migration events and different people's arriving. The early people, when they talk about South Africa, the Khoisan are the earliest peoples, although the Bantu, which are more contemporary, show up around 300 A.D. and they also come with agriculture and a lot of practices that you would recognize there, along with things like sorghum, which came out of Central Africa and was brought down and grew just fine in South Africa as well. Of course, eventually the Europeans show up and it was the Portuguese who got there first around the 14th century. The Dutch East Sidzi Company set up a settlement in the Western Cape in 1652, which made the British annoyed. So the British fought back and they gained control in that area in 1795, leading to a series of conflicts that culminate in the Anglo borough War of 1899-1902. The fallout of that ultimately results in what's known as the Union of South Africa, combining the four major states of South Africa, the Cape Natalia, Transvaal and the Orange Free State. Now we get into more contemporary stuff. Post World War II, the When Africana nationalism sort of leads to apartheid, which we all familiar with from the 80s and the 90s. The African National Congress had been around a long time, all going all the way back to 1912, where they always approach. They were always focused on the fact that black South Africans were excluded from political power. This turned violent on occasion. And in fact one of those occasions resulted in the arrest of Nelson Meldel in 1962, who was then held in various prisons until 1990, when De Klerk released him and began the end of apartheid and ultimately leading to the multiracial elections of 1994. Mandela winning, of course, writing a new constitution. And we get to the current history, which of course has not been that simple either. It's been 30 years and they're having all of their own struggles environmentally. The ecology, this is a subtropical part of the world. It stretches from the most northern parts of South Africa are about 22 degrees north. Remember that the Tropic of Capricorn is at 23.4. The Tropic Capricorn being the line that is the southernmost angle of the sun when it's directly overhead on the December solstice. That's what measures the tropics. And anything above that tropic is considered tropical and below subtropical and so forth down the line. So what this results in is a chunk of land spanning from about 22 to 35. And so in the southwest you have what we consider a Mediterranean client climate and more subtropical. Up at the northeast you do have quite temperate conditions inland, mostly because of the altitude well over 1500 meters in many spots along the Drakensbergs and the like. Like it's about a populace of 63 million people. The original crop in that area of course was sorghum, which came a couple of thousand years ago, although wheat did eventually make its way down there. Remember, wheat was growing just fine in northern Africa in 5000 BC. That was what made part of what made the Egyptian empire so massive. But getting across the equator is pretty difficult. So we don't really see wheat until the Dutch bring it in 1652. Corn was brought by the Portuguese explorers from the Americas in 1655 and Barley also grown there, but not near as much. The area where I was spending most of my time in the Western Cape and around Cape Town is the big agricultural center. There's about two and a half million farming households, although two million of those are subsistence farmers. So farmers that were the vast majority of their food is purely for feeding the family, not that many. The proportion of commercial farming to subsistence farming is different. This is what we. One of the terms, one of the measures we use when we talk about a developing nation is how much subsistent farming there still is. And if there is farming, and there has been for thousands of years, there is alcohol. And there are plenty of domestic alcohols in South Africa. One of the originals would be Amboathi, which is originally a sorghum based beer, although quickly switched over to maize as it became more prevalent. Today you can buy commercial versions of this which are primarily a corn based beer, maize beer, more in the European stuff. The Whitblitz is a kind of brandy. Again, a big wine growing region in the Cape area. And so you have leftovers for making wine. You're going to make brandy and so then plenty of that. Mempoer is another kind of brandy made from other fruits like peach and apricot. More in the north. And then most people know of a drink. If you know anything about African drink, especially South African is Amarula, which is sort of a play on a Bailey's. It's a creamy liqueur kind of chocolate, but it's made with the marula fruit. The marula fruit famously ferments on the tree and there are great videos of elephants absolutely hammered having chewed up the override. Amarillo. Amarillo. So and if you ever see a bottle of Amarillo, you'll see a big picture of a elephant on it because apparently it's the thing the elephants like to get drunk on. Now actually tracing the history of whiskey in South Africa is a little trickier just because lots of people like to claim that they started it and none of it, many of it is, is not true. So again, where do you see whiskey distillers appear? On grain farms. And so even in those temperate regions where grains grew fairly well. So this is the area around Pretoria. There was a. A fellow named Alois Hugo Nebapas who built a distillery in his area. And the only reason we know about this one because he eventually got caught and had to get a license. And in 1881 he got his licenses license from the Transvaal government. This is before South Africa was South Africa and he had the rights to the skill liquor from corn and other sources. That distillery is called an Erskebreken and It opened in 1883. Apparently their product was not great, but the miners didn't care. They just wanted cheap booze. Although he eventually hired a cognac maker, a guy named Rene Senhafigans who came down and started improving their distillation processes which was all well and fine until the Anglo Boer War of 1899, which essentially shut down boost production for the most part in South Africa. South the Gaffens actually fled back to France, although he did come back after the war was over in 1903 and he bought, was able to buy the stills from the Cabrican Distillery at an. At a bankruptcy auction and then took those stills, moved to Stellenbosch, which is where the big one of the big wine growing regions in the Western Cape bought a farm and to this day they still make a brandy there called Santis Premier. Now on the other side, so that's up in Pretoria, back over in the Cape area where there's lots of growing on going on. There was another distillery back built by Donald Robertson and Noel Buxton. This is in the 1960s, so much more current. They called it the because it was Robertson and Buxton they called the R B distillery. They weren't having a lot of success either. After spending 10 or so years on it. And the Stellenbosch Farmers Winery bought it up to experiment with different alcohols. They eventually started making a version of whiskey called the Three Ships. This is a very well known whiskey, although the original product was primarily Scott Scottish whiskey. And then they added a little bit of their own spirit to it. That was the Three Ships because it was actually imported whiskey combining Scottish malt in their own spirit. But jump back because if you generally look at where the first distilleries in South Africa, you talk about the quote unquote first distillery in Africa. I don't think any of this is true, but it's, you know, the documentation. You'll find that James Sedgwick, his sons opened a distillery in 1886. And then Sedgwick was a captain who worked for the British east in these companies. He was well known for his tea clipper. He was one of famously one of the first to get the new season tea to the, to the England in his the Clipper Undine. But he retired in Cape Town and opened an importing business for liquor and tobacco. His sons took it over in 1872 and they bought what was bought the buildings that made their distillery. It was likely already a brandy distillery. Again all this is sort of muddy made and they are quick to claim they were the only commercial distillery in Africa. But you know, you can't actually find any evidence of any bottles that they made at that time. We don't really hear about the James Sedwick Distillery making whiskey until they actually move the production of Three Ships from R B over to them and grow the production out. They also make another well known South African whiskey called Baines, which is actually a grain whiskey. It's made from corn, so more like a bourbon. I tried both of these while I was down there. I would call them mixer whiskies. Like they're, they're pretty basic and that leads us to this one. But they. I wanted to be complete. We're talking, can't talk about whiskey in South Africa. Talk about Three Ships and Baines, both owned by the Sedgwick Distillery. But this is Draymond's and this is a little, this is a contemporary whiskey production. So this was, was made by a guy named Moritz Kalmier who is a beer maker. So he started out in the 90s and a Drayman of course is someone who transports and delivers beer. And he, he started in the 90s making beer out of Pretoria region as well. Pretty common thing to do. And again they're they're like 5000ft, 1600 meters in Pretoria. So high altitude, it creates a temperate environment, even though they are pretty, pretty far, close to the equator. And his products are very successful. They make their money off of beer. They make a series of different craft beers that people really like. One of the most popular is called Jolly Monk, which used smoked malt. They've always used two row barley, which is very whiskey friendly. And Draymond's also got into the winery business, so they make wine as well. And they age all their wine in Bordeaux casks in they buy from France, although they age their own wine from new. And that combination of being a brewer and a winemaker. In 2006, it makes sense to start making whiskey because he already knows how to get good barley. He does it for his wine, for his beer. And he buys barley malt grown in Swartland, not far from Pretoria. Classic two row barley. Although he does admit that he also imports peated malt from Scotland. Scotland.

[Leo Laporte]

Oh, wow.

[Richard Campbell]

Wooden mash tons. He only does a two mash run when most places do three stainless steel washbacks. Pretty classic stuff. He uses his own unique blend of yeasts, primarily breweries yeast, because that's what he's got. It is a brewery, after all. And that means he has a very long ferment to try and get the alcohol levels up, because breweries yeast tends to die young at a lower alcohol level than than distiller's yeast. Distiller's yeast is a bit more robust and you can get to 8, 9, 10% before it starts to die off. Typically they're done. Brewer's use is done around 7%. And then he only has a single still. So he does a double pot distillation, but he does it in the same still. So not a huge fast production run, not a lot of capacity. But then he takes these Bordeaux casks that have already had his wine in them, does a bit of toasting on them. They're relatively small, but 225 liters typical would be 250. And does his aging there. And I've got him, got a lot of details on their aging process. But I have seen photos of the barrels sitting horizontally in racks three high in what looked like very much a steel shed. So now we get into the challenge of is it too hot, is it too cold? Like, how's the temperature management there? Because getting it aged well is tough. I did read a good piece from Dre about Draymond's on their barrel reprocessing, that after they run a batch through. Then they shaved the interior of the barrel and retoasted. And that reminded me of the Taiwanese whiskey, the Calavan whiskey, which also went through this particular shave and retoasting process. And they're also at about 33 degrees north as opposed to 33 degrees south. So they're dealing with a similar climate environment. So you've got all the steps here. And I would point out this is a 5 year old, but it's got a lot of color in it. That's probably because it's been aged in a red wine cask.

[Leo Laporte]

It's got more color than actually the website shows.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, yeah. And that might be a lighting thing here. It's just, you know, not as bright here.

[Leo Laporte]

It looks like wine. It looks red.

[Richard Campbell]

I clipped the back of the leather off to open it up. And it looks like we have a screw top instead of.

[Leo Laporte]

That's disappointing.

[Richard Campbell]

That's probably, you know, you don't really need a cork top on it. There's also says right on the edge of this label. The label is the sole property of Draymond's distillery. So. So that proof that this is the original seal still on this. Interesting. All right. And it opens just fine. So I'm not too anxious about them using a cork push top as versus a screw top. It actually will ship better with a screw top because it takes.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. A lot of wineries are using screw tops now.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

It's hard to get.

[Richard Campbell]

Just got a lot of alcohol in the room just like that. This is only 43%. I got a boozy nose on it, so. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just a freshly. That's a freshly open bottle in a two ways about it.

[Paul Thurrott]

It.

[Richard Campbell]

Wow. All right. Not a lot of upfront burn. Got a little tingle on the lips like, hello, we're here. Lots of different fruits, like a raisin apricot and some heat going down. Fairly nice. Wow, that's impressive for a five year old.

[Leo Laporte]

It's the only single malt whiskey out of South Africa. South Africa.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. They say it is, but they. I think what they've got is a lack of regulation down there because every one of their different. The different distillers I found made claims that would normally get them in trouble in any other place.

[Paul Thurrott]

Right.

[Richard Campbell]

So. Wow. Okay. Second drink is a little more potent now. I'm getting flush like it was. It was a really actually sturdy.

[Leo Laporte]

You're turning as dark as that Whiskey.

[Richard Campbell]

Only a 43%. This is nice. You would not buy a five year old Scottish whiskey. And in fact, no Scottish whiskey maker would allow a 5 to be on the label. It just wouldn't have. It would have no age declaration on it. And I defy you to think this is only a 5. It drinks really well. Now, admittedly, it's much more extreme there, so aging's going to happen faster. There'd be a battle here with the temperatures as to whether they're losing water versus alcohol on those barrels. But I also know border barrels tend to be thicker than bourbon barrels anyway. So they're actually better at holding onto their alcohol and holding on to their liquids in general than the. The bourbon casks do. And we talked about this last week. Where most whiskey you drink these days is spent time in bourbon barrels because they're just so plentiful and inexpensive. This hasn't. This has only been aged in French oak. That's kind of special. The same way that the Macallan sherry casks are only aged in sherry barrels. So what you got here is a remarkably original yet old school style of whiskey coming out of a really small producer outside of Pretoria. And that's pretty cool. My friend William gave me this bottle as I. As I was finishing my two weeks in South Africa. And he was part of the reason that I had such a good time there. And William knocked it out of the park. Like, what a great find. We went to a whiskey bar and tried a little of the Banes and a little three sales and talked about those. There was no Draymond's for sale because they just don't produce that much. But then he got me one of these bottles and I did not open until you watched me open it right now. And it's a score. And at 500 South African rand. That's about $30 US.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

If you could find one.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

That's the truth.

[Richard Campbell]

And I don't know. They. They don't produce enough to really be shipping anywhere. So if you're down there, I would grab one. And there's a question here about whether the barrels are reused. Yes, the barrels are reused. They shave and retoast them between utilizations, which is one of the things they can do with older.

[Leo Laporte]

Their web page actually has the most complete description of how they make it I've ever seen on any webpage for.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah, yeah. While also leaving out some important details like getting the specs on the still. Then not a lot of information there.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

Even just figuring out that they only have one still and you're not doing a Low wines, fine wines, but that again, you talk about lack of regulation. Why do the Scots use two stills? Because they have to use the still safe to control the flow of the alcohol so it doesn't get stolen. It's all about taxation. That's the South African rules. Don't have any of those requirements.

[Leo Laporte]

And it makes a pretty good whiskey.

[Richard Campbell]

Dude, this is legit single malt.

[Leo Laporte]

Absolutely.

[Richard Campbell]

Service to your friends.

[Paul Thurrott]

Wow.

[Richard Campbell]

$30 a bottle. Yeah. Keep it around. Problem is, you're gonna have to make a trip to South Africa to get it. That's the only problem.

[Paul Thurrott]

Is it a long flight? I.

[Leo Laporte]

It's worth it for the leather top.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. But if you're down there, come home with one. And if you. If anybody's coming up there from there, tell them to bring one.

[Leo Laporte]

Draymond's High Veld single malt whiskey.

[Richard Campbell]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

And you can spread it out over three months. If you can't afford the $30, which.

[Richard Campbell]

Is good, I would say the. Oh, it sounds like somebody's got some Total Wine has it.

[Leo Laporte]

Somebody's really, which is great. Yeah.

[Richard Campbell]

If you can find it.

[Leo Laporte]

100 bucks, total wine. Thank you, Snoop. Mikey.

[Richard Campbell]

About right.

[Paul Thurrott]

I don't get that shot there because.

[Richard Campbell]

You'Re only going to end up with a baner or three sales. And like I said, I think there are more mixer whiskies. I did try some older editions, and, you know, it's. You struggle to make an older bottle of whiskey in a place like that.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah.

[Leo Laporte]

I think, you know, the 100 bucks is because it's so unusual and rare.

[Richard Campbell]

Yeah. You can charge what you want.

[Leo Laporte]

It looks like you can go down to Culver City and pick one up on aisle 13, left bay three. So it's waiting for, you figure, 100%.

[Richard Campbell]

Import charge for sure. So now it's at $60, and then they mark it up, which is about 100%. So somewhere in that $100 mark seems reasonable.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah. Not bad at all.

[Richard Campbell]

Yep.

[Leo Laporte]

Richard, thank you for a really good whiskey and for a really good show. You too, Paul. I guess you. You helped.

[Richard Campbell]

You did some stuff. As far as I can tell, this show is actually about whatever Paul wrote this week and me making fun of it, but I'm okay.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, that's that. You're the color man, he's the play by play, that's all.

[Paul Thurrott]

We would just do this on the phone for free.

[Richard Campbell]

So it's not that different than our regular conversations, really. No.

[Leo Laporte]

Richard Campbell [e-mail]. that's where you'll Find his podcasts. It's not just runners radio but.net rocks with Carl Franklin and he is home for the summertime, which is nice. Good time to be home with your granddaughter and your kids. That's so good. Paul Thurat is at home in Lower Makunji where he can't wait to get back to Mexico, I think.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, two weeks.

[Leo Laporte]

Is it really hot right now in pa?

[Richard Campbell]

Oh yes, really hot.

[Leo Laporte]

It's just miserable up to the rest.

[Paul Thurrott]

Of 100, I think.

[Leo Laporte]

What? Yeah, we have a balmy 72 degrees right now in Petaluma. It's just pleasant.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's not good.

[Leo Laporte]

I'm sorry for everybody else though. It's the suffering.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's only. It's only 93.

[Leo Laporte]

I exaggerated but feels like 103.

[Paul Thurrott]

Yeah, it feels like 120.

[Leo Laporte]

Thurat [e-mail] makes sense, right? T H U R R O doublegood.com become a premium member. It's triple good. So there. If you want his books, you'll find [e-mail] including the Field Guide to Windows 11. See, he upgraded so you can too. And Windows Everywhere. A history of Windows through its development frameworks. Great to have you both. We do Windows Weekly, of course, every Wednesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern, 1800 UTC. Watch live as our club members are doing in the Discord. But you can do it in in all of the various places. YouTube, TikTok, Twitch, X.com, facebook, LinkedIn and Kik.

[Paul Thurrott]

I just love that you know this. It's an amazing list of obscure services, most of which I've never heard of. But.

[Leo Laporte]

Hey, you're a star on all of those. So no, take it seriously. We stream live because, you know, it's kind of fun for. For, you know, get the chat and the two way street and all that stuff. But you don't have to watch live by any means. You can get a copy of the show audio or video or both@TWIT TV WW. There's a link there to the YouTube channel that's dedicated to Windows Weekly. That's mo. Yeah, give us a thumbs up. Subscribe all the stuff the kids say but like and subscribe, man. But the real reason it's useful is it's a great way to share clips. And the best thing you could do is to tell a friend about Windows Weekly, send them a clip of something they'd be interested in and say, see, you could watch this every week. It helps spread the word.

[Richard Campbell]

And the whiskey clips.

[Leo Laporte]

The whiskey clips. And we make A playlist of all the whiskey Kevin King does that. We. I don't think we're caught up yet, but there is already a very lengthy playlist.

[Richard Campbell]

New ones keep coming at every week. I don't blame them for not.

[Leo Laporte]

Yeah, there's a lot of. It's a lot of work. You do a lot of work on these, which we appreciate. Also, you could subscribe. That's probably the easiest thing. Get your favorite podcast application and subscribe to Windows Weekly again. Audio or video, your choice if you want. I would sure love it if you gave us a nice five star review at the same time. That way others will find the show as well. Thank you so much everybody. We'll see you winners and you dozers again next Wednesday for Windows Weekly. Bye bye.

[Paul Thurrott]

Hi, Zoe Saldana. Welcome to T Mobile. Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us.

[D]

Thanks.

[Paul Thurrott]

And here's my old phone to trade in. You don't need to trade in. When you switch to T Mobile, we'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and.

[Leo Laporte]

You still get to keep it.

[D]

There's always a trade in.

[Paul Thurrott]

Not right now. @ T Mobile. I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma, but that's okay.

[D]

I don't really have much in my purse.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, let's see.

[D]

Hand sanitizer.

[Paul Thurrott]

It's lavender. I'm good.

[Richard Campbell]

Seriously.

[D]

Let me check this pocket.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, mints.

[Leo Laporte]

Really, I'm fine.

[Paul Thurrott]

Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever.

[Richard Campbell]

Switch to T Mobile.

[Paul Thurrott]

Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with.

[Richard Campbell]

Apple Intelligence on us, no trade in needed.

[Paul Thurrott]

We'll even pay off your phone up to 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line, $100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement $999.99 and qualifying ported for well qualified plus tax and $10 connection charge.

[Leo Laporte]

Pay off via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits end and balance due. If you pay off earlier, cancel CT mobile.com Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.