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Windows Weekly 958: Personal Turkey
02:45:22
Will Valve's Steam Machine Make a Splash?
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- [00:00]
Leo Laporte
It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Thurad and Richard Campbell are here. There's a new start menu came yesterday on Patch Tuesday. We'll talk about that. The Wall Street Journal finally get mad at Microsoft for not disclosing everything it owns with OpenAI. We'll talk a lot about. Net. Net Conf is going on right now and, you know, Richard's an expert. And introducing the newest video game console from Steam, if you believe it or not. All of that and more coming up next on Windows Weekly. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is twit. This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurad and Richard Campbell. Episode 958, recorded Wednesday, November 12, 2025. Personal Turkey. It's time for Windows Weekly. Hello, all you winners and a few dozers. This is the show we talk about. Latest from Microsoft with the two premier journalists in the Microsoft space.
- [01:07]
Richard Campbell
Oh, goodness.
- [01:10]
Paul Thurrott
Coming to say so.
- [01:12]
Leo Laporte
New Zealand it is. Richard Campbell.
- [01:14]
Paul Thurrott
Hello, Richard.
- [01:16]
Richard Campbell
I mean, welcome here from the future. It's Thursday here. Thursday morning.
- [01:20]
Paul Thurrott
How's the weather in the future?
- [01:22]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, it was very stormy overnight, like just blasting. Found a trampoline on the, on the, the milk truck road blown over from some neighbor's place.
- [01:34]
Leo Laporte
You know, that always happens to trampolines.
- [01:36]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, they fly. They're big sails. So the, the, the trampoline up here is held down by like six big spikes, so it stayed in place.
- [01:44]
Leo Laporte
Somebody else take ours down so that, that wouldn't happen.
- [01:48]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, but the sun's out now. You can see it, you know, speaking through the window here and washing me out a bit.
- [01:53]
Leo Laporte
Anyway, the kids have something new to play on, so that's it.
- [01:56]
Richard Campbell
Well, my main thing is we got to get out of the way because they got to, they got to unload milk today, so they got to get that.
- [02:01]
Leo Laporte
Oh, that's right. You're on a dairy farm.
- [02:03]
Richard Campbell
We're on a dairy farm.
- [02:04]
Leo Laporte
How much milk, Bobby? But before I ask that question, let's say hello to Paul Thurot, who's in Mexico City from Thurrot.com.
- [02:12]
Paul Thurrott
I feel like we've been talking for 30 minutes, but. Hello.
- [02:15]
Leo Laporte
Been on camera. So how much milk does that farm. You're on produce, Richard.
- [02:21]
Richard Campbell
150 heads. So they pick up milk every, every couple of weeks. And it's a big tank, 30,000 liters. Like it's.
- [02:31]
Leo Laporte
To get up at dawn or milk.
- [02:32]
Richard Campbell
I, I don't. There, there are professionals. Goodness knows you wouldn't want to count on me. But I, you know, I go down there every so Often we're actually been. I've redone the network here at the house with ubiquiti stuff and they want to put a relay to the milk shed, so.
- [02:46]
Leo Laporte
Yes, they do.
- [02:47]
Paul Thurrott
To the milk shed.
- [02:49]
Leo Laporte
Nobody.
- [02:49]
Paul Thurrott
There's. There's your podcast title. They.
- [02:51]
Leo Laporte
They have machines, right?
- [02:53]
Richard Campbell
Well, they're. Well, yeah, there's machines for doing the actual milking, but they're ready to go. I cows now because this is. We're in artificial insemination season and so.
- [03:02]
Leo Laporte
They have that time of year.
- [03:04]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, yeah, no, we sure are.
- [03:05]
Richard Campbell
You should really, really not ask me about the details of how you artificially inseminate a cow.
- [03:10]
Leo Laporte
Cu.
- [03:11]
Richard Campbell
Not.
- [03:12]
Paul Thurrott
No, Nobody.
- [03:12]
Leo Laporte
Nobody wants. I think I saw it on Yosemite.
- [03:14]
Richard Campbell
But no, you do not exactly. But they're now starting to put sensors for the cows to figure out when they're in cycle so that they. The insemination will take.
- [03:23]
Leo Laporte
Do they have to wear a little pouch?
- [03:25]
Paul Thurrott
What do they.
- [03:25]
Leo Laporte
Or do they got a call?
- [03:26]
Richard Campbell
It's a collar.
- [03:27]
Leo Laporte
It's a collar.
- [03:28]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [03:28]
Leo Laporte
Wow. They have a little aura ring for both.
- [03:31]
Richard Campbell
Basically, he says, I'm ready.
- [03:36]
Leo Laporte
Come and get me, boys.
- [03:38]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, well, funny. They have four bulls. They do have four bulls here right now on Rent. Oh, so.
- [03:45]
Leo Laporte
So they do it the old fashioned.
- [03:47]
Richard Campbell
No, they do not. They're just there to get the girls riled up.
- [03:50]
Leo Laporte
Oh, they're just there for show.
- [03:52]
Richard Campbell
Yep.
- [03:53]
Leo Laporte
Oh, my God. I don't know if we want to know any more about this.
- [03:55]
Paul Thurrott
I just literally, absolutely do not.
- [03:57]
Richard Campbell
People tune in.
- [03:58]
Paul Thurrott
They don't expect clear about this. Yeah, I think we're good. I think we're good right there.
- [04:04]
Leo Laporte
I mentioned for Windows information.
- [04:06]
Paul Thurrott
Instead I got Windows tmi.
- [04:09]
Leo Laporte
TMI for breakfast.
- [04:11]
Paul Thurrott
Paulie. Yes, sir?
- [04:13]
Leo Laporte
Patch Tuesday was yesterday. Have my.
- [04:15]
Paul Thurrott
Since we're on this topic, though, I just want to say I get my milk from the abirotes down the street and I'm pretty sure no cow was ever involved in the.
- [04:22]
Leo Laporte
Do they have a little sound that they play as they walk around with their milk?
- [04:27]
Richard Campbell
Do you see milk in the oats? Are they milking the oats?
- [04:32]
Paul Thurrott
It's a place where I could buy like a ham and cheese sandwich and a curiously fresh fruit thing, but I don't know. The milk. Some of the mass produced stuff here is a little off.
- [04:41]
Leo Laporte
It comes in a box. Right. It comes in a septic packaging. Or is it.
- [04:47]
Paul Thurrott
It goes bad in like three days. As soon as you open it, it's sour. You're like, what is it?
- [04:52]
Leo Laporte
Okay, well, that's the dairy segment on the show.
- [04:57]
Paul Thurrott
Sorry.
- [04:58]
Leo Laporte
Okay, so yes, for you lactose intolerance winners and dozers. I am sorry now. Yes, Patch Tuesday, yesterday. What happened?
- [05:09]
Paul Thurrott
Well, number.
- [05:10]
Richard Campbell
Everything went great. Everything was fine. It was fine.
- [05:13]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. So far so good. 24.25H2. Got a pretty good update. Maybe not. Well, one of the things that's in here, which is the new Start menu, might be the biggest UI change to Windows 11 in a long time, that people actually. Yeah, like people will notice it. Like it's real or whatever. It's good.
- [05:33]
Richard Campbell
It actually happened.
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Leo Laporte
What's changed?
- [05:36]
Paul Thurrott
I don't know. I don't use the Start menu. No, I actually really. I pretty much skip it. But in the past it had the two sections pinned and recommended. Recommended could be a mix of documents and apps and then now ads, you know, recommendations, literally. And now there's a third section which is basically apps and that's at the bottom. And by default it uses a very iPhone, like Library View, which is not called Library View, but what is it called? It's called All. Well, all is the name of the. No, I know, but the View style is category style. Right. So similar to the app library.
- [06:13]
Leo Laporte
Oh, yes. Apple added that to the iPhone a few.
- [06:18]
Paul Thurrott
So this used to be a subscreen, right? You would go in the top right of the menu, click more, and then you would see this list. But the list view is the one that is identical to the old view, except it's on the front of the Start menu now. I mean, that's the biggest thing, honestly. You don't get layout options anymore like we used to in Settings, which is fine because it was pointless anyway. There's a little phone icon up to the right of the search bar, so you can turn that side pane thing on and off the slice, as it's called, I think, for your phone. And then after that it's pretty much the same. Other than the ability to change the layout, the customization is all the same. So if you want recommended to only show apps and not documents or whatever, you can do that. That kind of stuff.
- [07:11]
Leo Laporte
And this is for 24 and 25 HD?
- [07:14]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, if it's a supported version of Windows 11, you'll get it. Also, the thing you can't really get from the image is it also scales according to the size, resolution and scaling of your display. So if you have a really big display with a small like a hundred percent or, you know, 125% scaling, maybe it will be really big, you know, like you'll get additional horizontal space. I Guess I've never really seen that, to be honest. But that's because I'm using laptops here. That's all I got. But anyway, I would say a 27, whatever, 30 whatever inch screen, probably going to get some good. Some good additional space there.
- [07:56]
Leo Laporte
So that's nice because, I mean, screens tend to be wider than they are.
- [08:01]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, exactly.
- [08:03]
Leo Laporte
Microsoft's. Because they like the.
- [08:04]
Paul Thurrott
No, but the external displays we buy today are still pretty much 16 by 9 for whatever reason. Right. You don't see 16 by 10 in that space too much. I don't know why, but that's where we're at. So. Yeah, I mean, you could actually use that space, so it's good.
- [08:18]
Richard Campbell
Cool.
- [08:18]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. So beyond that, everyone gets, you know, the Start menu, like I said, the battery icon change where it's going to be different colors based on the state of the battery. So if it's charging, it will be green. If it's the battery, if it's in battery saver mode, it'll be yellow. Critically, low will be red. You can optionally display the battery life percentage like you can on a phone. That's kind of cool. Administrative protection that kind of. I would. Not controversial, but really aggressive. Locking down of your admin account, which is your account. It's off by default, but you can enable it. In my experience, it's very disruptive. Maybe that will get better over time.
- [09:01]
Richard Campbell
But yeah, it reminds me of uac, which was really bad, you know, initially, and then gradually eased off.
- [09:09]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. So remember. Yeah. So when UIC was first announced especially, and maybe the way it was implemented in Vista, in the beginning, it was annoying, you know, and then in Windows 7, they kind of streamlined it. They did a nice job. And so this is them going in the reverse direction because now it's a Windows hello experience and it's slow and you still have to acknowledge the prompt. You know, it comes slowly. It's like it's you. And then sits there and you're like, okay, it's me. Can we move on, please? And no, you got to click the button. It's something that needs to be streamlined. So I'm thinking they'll get that one right eventually. But also the primary problem is that it comes up so much. I'm sure what they're trying to avoid is a situation where something you're doing requires permission, elevation, and it just happens and you're not aware of it. And I'm sure that's what it is. I would like the option to turn it off because I do not Care if someone is physically holding me in front of the webcam and forcing it to do something I don't want to do. I have bigger problems than Windows. Hello. Moving a little slow, but anyway, there's that kind of stuff. Then if you have a Copilot plus PC, there's a bunch of improvements across click to do File Explorer voice access and Windows search, which I think of as semantic search at this point. So that last one is if you are an AMD or Intel based PC. I think it was only available in preview before, now it's there so you should have that. The File Explorer stuff is that escalating right click menu which interestingly I saw. I think it was on Twitter or something Microsoft was talking about. Oh no, no, no. I watched a Windows app SDK community call and they were talking about how they're going to work to fix that problem. So instead of. I'm not sure how this fixes it to be honest. But instead of like a giant menu with a bunch of stuff on it, you'll have submenus now like, like in the Windows 95 Start menu. So you'd have to like, you have to be super accurate. You know, if you like you remember you used to go like, you'd go off at like one pixel.
- [11:14]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. The whole menu would collapse and you get like eight.
- [11:16]
Paul Thurrott
It was like eight things in and they'd be like, oh, I lost it. You know, that kind of thing.
- [11:22]
Richard Campbell
Websites like that these days. I don't go there anymore.
- [11:25]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, right. And then a bunch of stuff with click to do just you could do on screen language, translation of text, which I think is pretty cool. Unit conversion of things. I don't know. But I don't, I don't know how other people use their computers, but I look at this stuff and I always think like, I'm like, yeah, this is fine. Like it's absolutely sort of productivity focused. I don't have a problem with it. I'm like, I will never use any of this stuff. I don't quite understand what the point.
- [11:52]
Leo Laporte
Of it is, but somebody must.
- [11:54]
Paul Thurrott
Right? Right. I don't mind that it's there. That's my point. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah, so that was that. So we'll see what happens in December. Microsoft usually bails mid month, so January will probably be pretty late. But I bet we have another pretty good update coming.
- [12:16]
Richard Campbell
And yeah, everybody's working on ignite so they definitely lose two weeks in November.
- [12:22]
Paul Thurrott
Oh yeah, right. That's a good point. So. Right. Actually That's a really good point. Yeah.
- [12:29]
Richard Campbell
So I always look at the November. December is effectively like lost.
- [12:32]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, it's like, yeah, Microsoft, like Windows is operating on a like a 10 month schedule basically. You know, honestly, after this year and all the updates, I think we could all use a break. You know, I don't think I, I.
- [12:44]
Richard Campbell
Got to tell you, I talked to lots of blue badges that are in that mood too. Like they've run so hard this year, you know, that October tour talked to a lot of them and it's like ready for this year to be done.
- [12:57]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:58]
Richard Campbell
And they were all, they were all on Ignite. Like everybody was on Ignite this time, right?
- [13:04]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, they've been, they've been kind of previewing Ignite a lot all over the place. Like if you follow Microsoft's blogs or their social media presence or whatever it is, they're, they've been, they're, they're, they're sort of giving little hints about things and then saying, well, there'll be more at Ignite, which is usually the way I kind of approach things where it's like, when do you think this is going to happen? I'm like, well, let's see what happens at the next show, which in this case is Ignite. But they're kind of doing that as well.
- [13:35]
Richard Campbell
To me, a show that is next week, that is still. And it's a Microsoft show and it's still not sold out. Says a lot.
- [13:44]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, it does. But then, I don't know, given the lack of expense of just doing this, virtually the premise behind going to a show like that is that you get to interact in person with the expert in Ignitescape or Microsoft show, often the people on the product team, which is awesome. Right. This is valuable. Yeah.
- [14:04]
Richard Campbell
And I'm interested to see how many of them were actually shipped to San Francisco because.
- [14:08]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, so I got to think about this. Maybe, you know, you know, since the pandemic, they've stayed pretty close to home. You know, they have the live shows. Right.
- [14:17]
Richard Campbell
And that was why being in Seattle was so great. Because you could have a lot of the team there because they were there.
- [14:23]
Paul Thurrott
Right. Yeah. That picture that came up in the discord and we brought it up last week, I think too of you and I is from Orlando, from possibly ignite 2019.
- [14:34]
Richard Campbell
Probably.
- [14:35]
Paul Thurrott
Probably. Right. And you know, which was the last one before the pandemic. So. And that was also my last work trip before the. And then for the next year or whatever. But I Don't know. Obviously it's good for kind of networking purposes, which, you know, for me is just get, you know, keeping touch with people you haven't seen in a while.
- [14:54]
Richard Campbell
But I go to a lot of in person events. Like people want to be face to face.
- [15:00]
Paul Thurrott
Right.
- [15:00]
Richard Campbell
And they want to learn that way. So. Yes. It's just interesting to see how Microsoft is rethinking all of this with. And I would also say like the team leads for these shows keep changing, so clearly they're feeling around for different approaches. I don't know how important moving to Moscone was because last time I heard they were complaining about Seattle's homeless problem.
- [15:22]
Paul Thurrott
I know, I don't know. I don't know if you've been to San Francisco, but they might also have a problem with that. In fact, they might have perfected that problem.
- [15:30]
Leo Laporte
Was it the homeless or the protesters they didn't like?
- [15:32]
Richard Campbell
Well, both. And goodness knows there's no protesters in San Francisco, so that'll be fine.
- [15:38]
Leo Laporte
But there are fewer apolitical places in San Francisco. Right. I mean, most of the protesters or.
- [15:43]
Paul Thurrott
Many of them were Microsoft employees.
- [15:45]
Leo Laporte
Right, right.
- [15:45]
Paul Thurrott
Well. Well, look, I'm sure we'll have protests. I mean, I wouldn't worry about that. But I actually wonder, you know, as you, you kind of asked or. I don't remember how it was phrased, but Richard said something that made me think, I wonder if this isn't like a AI fatigue kind of a thing. The point being, not that what Microsoft is or isn't doing with Copilot, Microsoft 365 Copilot, whatever it is. Right. It's not that it's not necessarily good or useful or whatever, but it might be that for these guys who are IT admins, like, you know, this is going to be the whole show. Like, you know it's going to be the whole show.
- [16:22]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, you got to imagine it will be.
- [16:24]
Paul Thurrott
I have more kind of bread and butter problems than whether or not some employees like summarizing an email or whatever. So maybe we can skip this one. That might have something to do with it. I just pulled that one out.
- [16:37]
Richard Campbell
You hit on an interesting point because I'm talking to several other AI related shows that are getting a lot of lash back. So people are pretty burned out.
- [16:48]
Paul Thurrott
It's too much too fast and then too disappointing.
- [16:51]
Richard Campbell
Plus, plus there's also this whole era of we know this is a bubble and it's ending. Why are you still pretending it's not?
- [16:58]
Paul Thurrott
Right?
- [16:58]
Richard Campbell
Right.
- [16:59]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. Yeah. So interestingly, this is a Coincidence. I only have one item in the AI segment of the show today, which is.
- [17:08]
Richard Campbell
I love that this is a two year low.
- [17:11]
Paul Thurrott
That was not. I know, I'm serious. It was not by design, but it's just kind of the way it worked out. But we'll see, we'll see. I haven't, you know, we'll, it's sometime before the show. I'll, I'll see what they're going to do and then, you know, we'll talk about it next. Well, well, actually we won't because. Oh, no, maybe we will. When does night start? Is it Tuesday or.
- [17:30]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, something like that. Next week. But I'm going to be in still New Zealand or you're moving, heading to Australia. So. Yeah, yeah, I'm not, I'm not terribly unhappy to be missing this one, but.
- [17:41]
Leo Laporte
Should we cover the keynote?
- [17:44]
Paul Thurrott
You know what, let me, let me talk to you about that offline when I know what's happening and then, yeah, you can decide.
- [17:51]
Leo Laporte
Help us decide. We'd like to cover keynotes, but only if they're substantive. If it's just satya, kind of.
- [18:01]
Paul Thurrott
Yep, yep. I can't, I can't. I'm going to want to read a transcript of that part of it. I can't, I can't.
- [18:06]
Leo Laporte
I know, I can't even. It's too much business speak. I think that's the issue. It's like.
- [18:11]
Paul Thurrott
And it's always new. Like, you know, I've said this before, but when it comes to AI, there's so much new language. It makes me feel like, I think other people feel it when they hear, you know, like me and Richard talking where there's like normal people and they're like, what the hell is two guys talking about? You know, and it's, it's, there's that aspect to it. But then you listen to like the Microsoft earnings stuff or whatever it is, and they're using all these. It's like it's a fungible fleet, you know, and it's like, oh, why are we introducing new words? Like, let's. Like, can't we just use the words we already have? Like, why do we have to. You know, everything has to be new and it's just weird. Oh, by the way, actually, yeah, someone, Kev Brewer says he's correct. Sacha is not going to be doing the keynote, by the way.
- [18:53]
Leo Laporte
Good.
- [18:54]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. And I don't know why, but if.
- [18:56]
Richard Campbell
They'Re going to do it on Tuesday, that means you, we can talk about it on Wednesday.
- [19:00]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right.
- [19:02]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. That's really the choice is, should we cover it live or is it.
- [19:05]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I'll let. I will reach out to you when I. When I know. Yeah, this is the way I will say that.
- [19:10]
Leo Laporte
That's how we. That's how we like to do.
- [19:11]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, we'll see. And then, you know, if Twitter announcers are going to cover it live, you know, it's gonna be something good.
- [19:17]
Leo Laporte
That's right.
- [19:18]
Paul Thurrott
I guess. Which is, you know, not really violating an NDA per se, but it's a little bit. I don't know.
- [19:23]
Leo Laporte
I have covered so many not so good keynotes.
- [19:26]
Paul Thurrott
Tell me about it. And I'm gonna reference one of them at the end of the show, actually.
- [19:31]
Leo Laporte
I know exactly which one.
- [19:33]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, yeah. I will never forget it as long as I live. Okay. So in keeping with what I just said about Microsoft sort of talking about things ahead of Ignite, they have an initiative called the Secure Future Initiative that is about security first at Microsoft. It's like I thought it was AI first. Yeah, we're going to say it's security.
- [19:54]
Richard Campbell
SFI came first. Right. That was Midnight Blizzard that really got that running hard.
- [19:59]
Paul Thurrott
And then there was a renewed kind of interest and push with it because of CrowdStrike. Right. And then now Windows has its own initiative that's part of that. But so ahead of Ignite, they were just Microsoft. There's nothing actually new like unless you're just not paying attention, I guess. But they have added the. They've made some changes to Windows 11, including that admin protection thing we just talked about. But you know, quick memory, I'm sorry, quick machine recovery, which we've talked about some improvements to Windows hot patch phishing resistant multi factor authentication, which I would hope all.
- [20:38]
Richard Campbell
Which should be all.
- [20:40]
Paul Thurrott
All is it. Yeah, that always helps. And then the passwordless sign in stuff using passkeys and FIDO 2 credentials. So Windows 11 has had basic passkey support, I want to say, since 23H2, I think it was. It didn't do anything basically except some pass through authentication for your Microsoft account, basically. But now it's more full featured. The Password Manager built into Edge does this now as well and it supports third party password manager. So you could go into Windows 11. I think they just announced today during the beta it was one password. Now it's one password. And oh, I can't remember if it's bitwarden or Dashlane, but one of the two can now integrate into this interface in the Settings app. So instead of using the built in Windows Edge password passkey management capabilities. You can use the one of your choice, which is great because you could create a PassKey on the PC and then it will be available to you on your phone. And if you've already done a bunch of passkey stuff through whatever the system is, just by signing in, you get it in Windows too. Right. So that one to me is a big win. That's good. Oh, and I should mention too, Surface is part of it and we've talked about this in the past. I'm not sure there was new news per se leading up to the show. There might be next week at the show, but Surface has really. You don't give them a lot of. I don't think people think about it this way, but Surface has really pioneered the use of Rust in rewriting UFI firmware and they have open sourced it and it's available to anyone who wants to use it. Right. And I'm not aware of any PC maker that has taken them up on this, but this thing is, you know, it's memory safe and more secure, et cetera. And so all the modern surface PCs have this. Interesting. Yeah, it works well in my limited experience, but it does seem to work okay. So yeah, that's a little. I mean this is the type of stuff they're going to be talking about Ignite, right? We're not going to be talking about the Xbox game bar. It's going to be like this kind of stuff, you would presume.
- [22:42]
Richard Campbell
I haven't seen any content plan at all. Net conf is going on this week so I think the devs are focused on that, but I presume they'll be at Ignite. Like we keep thinking. Ignite is a replacement for Teched and was really focused on more administrative stuff, but this just hasn't been true.
- [22:58]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's definitely admin. You know it heavy. But there's. There's been a developer component to it since. I don't know, maybe the beginning really, I don't remember but pretty much. It's not as big as build obviously, but it's, it's still a place where they could make some announcements there. So yeah, we shall see. Last week Microsoft, after we got some rumors to this effect revealed that indeed there will be a 26H1 release of Windows 11. They haven't said anything about it. The rumors are saying that this is really for this Snapdragon X2 line of copilot plus PCs that's going to come out sometime early next year. And I can only guess at this point, and I think I did last week, there might be a handful of new features that are specific to those machines, but I think it's going to be pretty much what you see everywhere. So this time they're just using a different name. Remember when they did 20? I forget when things happened. I guess it would have been 24H2. They released the initial release only for Snapdragon first out in June or whatever. May, June. And you could get it through the Insider program if you had an x86 computer. And then it came out again in October for everybody.
- [24:16]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [24:16]
Paul Thurrott
And so even if you got it through Snapdragon, obviously it had been improved over the. Whatever, the six months or whatever. So they're doing the same thing, but this time they're just going to call it something different. So that, to me, is pretty straightforward. There's nothing. You know, we'll see how this turns into. But after prepping us for the fact that Dev will be moving to this new version of Windows again, they didn't say it that way, but that's what's happening. They released the first 26H1 build to the Canary Channel.
- [24:47]
Richard Campbell
The Canary Channel.
- [24:49]
Paul Thurrott
And it's like, what?
- [24:52]
Richard Campbell
So when's the last time we had anything released at the Canary Channel?
- [24:55]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, like, first. Exactly. I know. I mean, like, literally. Well, I mean, are you trying to.
- [25:00]
Richard Campbell
Use Canary like it's a Canary, like.
- [25:02]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, exactly. Right. And they're like. And I love the messaging around it. Like, don't worry, there's nothing new in here. You don't have to. Don't even think about it.
- [25:09]
Richard Campbell
It's like, what, the thing that Canary is supposed to be. Yeah.
- [25:12]
Paul Thurrott
And the other thing is, like, I didn't try it, but, I mean, if you're on. If you're on Canary and you have a x86 computer like a normal person.
- [25:22]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [25:22]
Paul Thurrott
I'm guessing you can get 26H1 right now. So it's like, what is. What's this schedule? Exactly. This is bizarre. You know? So if you thought this was going to introduce any clarity to anything, it's just. Don't worry, it didn't. So, anyway, I. There's not. There's no. There are no new features. Allegedly. Yeah, we don't know.
- [25:41]
Richard Campbell
Okay. And you don't have a machine configured for Canary right now?
- [25:44]
Paul Thurrott
No, I would never use.
- [25:45]
Richard Campbell
Why would you.
- [25:46]
Paul Thurrott
I don't see the point. Yeah. Well, now it's like, okay, maybe, you know. But, yeah, Dev is going to get on this path as well.
- [25:52]
Richard Campbell
It'll show up in dev anytime.
- [25:53]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [25:53]
Paul Thurrott
And it's probably, I mean, maybe.
- [25:55]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [25:56]
Paul Thurrott
I don't know if it'll be this month or next month or whatever, but.
- [25:58]
Richard Campbell
I'd be really interested in knowing how many people are configured for Canary. Like that's an interesting question.
- [26:04]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah.
- [26:04]
Richard Campbell
So it's always been an orphan, right?
- [26:06]
Paul Thurrott
Right.
- [26:06]
Richard Campbell
It's never really become.
- [26:08]
Paul Thurrott
It's also, and I say this, please take this with the ignorance with which it is intended because I don't install these builds. But when you read the posts about them, you're not getting a cumulative update that updates whatever you have to the new build. You're getting a full build. It's like a full install.
- [26:25]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [26:26]
Paul Thurrott
And so they don't really spend a lot of time with no indication there'll.
- [26:29]
Richard Campbell
Be a way out of it, right?
- [26:31]
Paul Thurrott
Oh no.
- [26:32]
Richard Campbell
You're supposed to pave your way out of a Canary belt.
- [26:34]
Paul Thurrott
Exactly. You're going to nuke this thing from orbit. That's the only, the only way. Yeah. So I don't know, I don't know what's going on there. And then earnings are still kind of dribbling out.
- [26:47]
Richard Campbell
Boy.
- [26:48]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. So Qualcomm actually reported a net loss, oddly on revenues of $11.3 billion.
- [26:55]
Richard Campbell
I'm very hip.
- [26:57]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. But it was because they took a one time $5.7 billion write down charge from the US government's one big beautiful bill act. So congratulations everybody.
- [27:09]
Richard Campbell
But so, so that means they were in line to make two and a half billion.
- [27:12]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. Yeah, they were doing fine and they expect this quarter to be great and going forward should be great. They seem to think they're past this problem, so I guess we'll see. But I, in the context of Intel, I've been saying lately, you have to remember intel, when they report their earnings, doesn't include Intel Foundry revenues in their earnings. It's treated like a separate company. For the past, I want to say two, maybe three quarters, Qualcomm has been reporting their revenue, excluding the money they get from Apple because they want to show that the business is healthy without that business. Because at some point Apple's going to drop them like the bad habit that Apple believes they are.
- [27:54]
Leo Laporte
Do you think they also don't want to tell people how much it is? I mean Apple doesn't refuses to tell people what they make from Google.
- [28:01]
Paul Thurrott
Right.
- [28:02]
Leo Laporte
But no, that's just licensing money though, right? I mean it's, it's.
- [28:06]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, well, well no, it's chips. Right. Because they are making modem chips. Right. So you know, they don't want to.
- [28:13]
Leo Laporte
Tell people how many chips are selling.
- [28:14]
Paul Thurrott
To Apple and Apple is replacing Qualcomm cares. I think that, honestly, I think this is, I don't think that they ever said, by the way, this quarter we sold 17 chips to Apple. I don't think, I don't think this is them.
- [28:26]
Leo Laporte
Because I would not want them to say that, by the way.
- [28:28]
Paul Thurrott
That way, of course. And Qualcomm would probably say, yeah, well go to your other alternative and get the modem from who that other company is.
- [28:35]
Leo Laporte
Apple's making them. That's.
- [28:37]
Paul Thurrott
No, I know. Now they are. I mean, now they are.
- [28:38]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's why it's going to get zero soon.
- [28:40]
Paul Thurrott
That's right. So I think the reason they're doing it is for Wall Street. Right. In other words, there would be a lot of questions for this company about their viability going forward if they lose this big business. And what they're trying to demonstrate is that we're still seeing year over year revenue growth.
- [28:55]
Richard Campbell
We're still a successful company without Apple's numbers in here at all.
- [28:58]
Paul Thurrott
Just don't worry about it. We're going to be fine. Obviously they make most of their money from Android phones, of course, Android devices, whatever. And yeah, when you look at what I say was 11.3 billion, almost 10 billion of that was from the phone chips. Right, of course, of course it is. So not just processors, but they make other chips as well and they make chips for IoT automotive, PC of course. And they do have a licensing business, but that one's been declining for a long time. It's 1.4 billion in revenues, down 7% year over year. I don't know, I don't think people or companies want to license anything from quality Qualcomm anymore. But anyway, they'll be fine.
- [29:40]
Richard Campbell
But yeah, their CPU business is the thing that's supposed to save them. Right. Like this is the play.
- [29:45]
Paul Thurrott
And yeah, this didn't come up in my write up or anything but like a lot of companies, you know, we saw this with amd, they're making a sort of data center push themselves as well, which makes sense. You know, when they acquired Nuvia, those chips that became Snapdragon X started off as chips for data centers and they had really good graphics capabilities. Right. And that was the point. And then they bought that company and they did what they did with it. But, but they're, you know, they're, they're trying to diversify, I guess. Yeah.
- [30:19]
Richard Campbell
Smart. Yeah.
- [30:22]
Leo Laporte
Well, folks, I hope you've enjoyed this.
- [30:24]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, that's all the windows I got. So I'll see you next week, everybody. Thank you.
- [30:29]
Leo Laporte
Look at the quarterly results of some of the biggest industries in the world. We're going to take a little break and then we will talk about Microsoft. We will, I promise.
- [30:40]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, yes. Oh yes.
- [30:43]
Leo Laporte
And AI. And we've even got some developer stuff, Xbox stuff and brown liquor stuff. All of the stuff coming up. But first, let's talk about our fine sponsor. This episode of Windows Weekly brought to you by my personal choice for password managers. Bitwarden, the trusted leader in passwords, pass keys and secrets management. By which I mean. Well, I mean in my use, I store everything that I want to keep private in the Bit Warden vault. Because it's properly encrypted, it's not visible to anybody but me. So I keep my passport in there, my driver's license, images of those. I keep my Social Security number, that amount, my family all in there. So that's my personal secrets. But also the kinds of secrets developers accidentally send to GitHub sometimes and are embarrassed. API keys, you know, Those secrets that GitHub and others give you. Your SSH private key. In fact, Bitwarden, I love Bitwarden. They recently made it possible to generate, store and serve SSH keys right from Bitwarden.
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Paul Thurrott
Nice.
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Leo Laporte
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They're going to tell you, you're going to be shocked. And then you can tell them, hey, you know, you really should use Bitwarden. Oh, I can't afford that. It's free. Bitwarden free for individuals. Bitwarden.com TWIT Think of it as a little Thanksgiving gift you can give to all your friends and family. Bitwarden.com TWIT and if they don't use it, hey, it's on them now. It's on them. You told them you did your best. On. We go with Windows Weekly, Paul Thurat and Roma Norte, Richard Campbell towering.
- [38:19]
Paul Thurrott
That was a pretty good roll of the R there.
- [38:22]
Leo Laporte
I've tried. I'm still working on Turanga Taranga.
- [38:26]
Paul Thurrott
I can't. I'm not. I'm never gonna do the rolling. The R thing. I get people who like the. They like. Literally.
- [38:34]
Leo Laporte
I can't.
- [38:35]
Paul Thurrott
My.
- [38:35]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, yeah. Everything I know I learned from.
- [38:37]
Paul Thurrott
It's not the race.
- [38:38]
Leo Laporte
Gonzalez.
- [38:39]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [38:40]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. We went up to the beach in Whakatane, and Fakatane is spelled wh.
- [38:45]
Leo Laporte
Okay.
- [38:50]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. Wh is an F sound in. In Maori.
- [38:53]
Paul Thurrott
So we're right at home in Pennsylvania where they don't.
- [38:55]
Leo Laporte
Whk. They're yelling. They're swearing at me.
- [38:58]
Richard Campbell
It could be, yeah. They don't say those sorts of things.
- [39:01]
Leo Laporte
They're nice. They're nice. Do you. Have you ever done the nose thing?
- [39:05]
Richard Campbell
I have not, no. But, you know, when I. Living with Amari here in the house, so.
- [39:09]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, really?
- [39:10]
Richard Campbell
She's good. Fun.
- [39:11]
Leo Laporte
I love that. I think that's so cool.
- [39:14]
Richard Campbell
Well, we. We watched the All Blacks on the weekend, too, which is very dramatic.
- [39:18]
Leo Laporte
They get very serious about that.
- [39:20]
Richard Campbell
They were playing Scotland and went out and lead early, and then the Scots tied it up and they sneaked a try at the very end and won it. So it was great.
- [39:28]
Paul Thurrott
I mean, I find that pickleball is just about as exciting. I mean, we're talking rugby, different strokes for different real game.
- [39:37]
Richard Campbell
Like a real game or a woman's game?
- [39:39]
Paul Thurrott
A real war.
- [39:41]
Leo Laporte
Becky Worley, who, of course was a regular on our shows, was on Good Morning America, worked with me@Tech TV, was on the US women's rugby team. She had multiple knee replacements.
- [39:53]
Richard Campbell
Tough sport. It's a tough sport.
- [39:54]
Leo Laporte
She's a tough lady, man. And gorgeous. She looks good doing it, too. It's kind of very impressive. Anyway, on we go. Let's talk about. Oh, Microsoft. What do you think?
- [40:05]
Richard Campbell
Oh, so strange.
- [40:07]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, so I, you know, dating back to the Mary Jo Foley years, been complaining about Microsoft's increasing lack of transparency with the earnings reports. You know, it's come up some couple times lately.
- [40:20]
Leo Laporte
Last week we talked about it.
- [40:21]
Paul Thurrott
Wall Street Journal is beating this to death. It's Beautiful.
- [40:24]
Richard Campbell
This is John Wheel, right Like this. He's decided this is a campaign for him.
- [40:28]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. He's like, he's like, this is. You're not meeting your legal requirements. Like, it's like, thank you. Exactly. Right, right. And he explains why, you know, he's like, this is this thing OpenAI, this investment has a material impact on your revenues and you have to disclose that to current and potential investors. You have to. It's the law. It's the law and they are not doing it. And he really spells it out pretty well. So he knows a lot more about this than I do, obviously. But anyway, smart, but. But separate from this and amusingly. And I don't think this was the same reporter, but let me try to find it a different person. But the Wall Street Journal got a hold of internal documentation from OpenAI that says that their expectation is that they will lose more and more money every year and that the furthest out they go is 2028, at which time they will be losing $74 billion a year.
- [41:26]
Leo Laporte
So Ed Zitterin is taking a.
- [41:29]
Paul Thurrott
You think?
- [41:30]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, they're taking a lap on this one. Yeah.
- [41:31]
Leo Laporte
Oh my God. Jeez. He's been saying this, but now this.
- [41:35]
Richard Campbell
Bubble'S not going to be around in 2028. Like clearly the, you know, the jig's going to be up before these guys projections even become.
- [41:42]
Leo Laporte
Just tell me when I should get out of the stock market.
- [41:44]
Paul Thurrott
It was like six months ago.
- [41:46]
Leo Laporte
Oh, crap.
- [41:48]
Richard Campbell
Well, isn't that. What's his name, the big short guy just taking a billion dollar short position.
- [41:53]
Leo Laporte
Saw that. Yeah.
- [41:54]
Richard Campbell
On Nvidia and, and Sun Son.
- [41:57]
Leo Laporte
Masayoshi Son just saw. Sold SoftBank's entire $5.8 billion.
- [42:02]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I know, it's crazy.
- [42:03]
Richard Campbell
Well, 5 trillion is a lot.
- [42:06]
Paul Thurrott
I said, I assume he like put it into like hobby lobby or some other big growth.
- [42:12]
Leo Laporte
It's got to be hard. And I really feel for him. When you have that much money to really find an investment.
- [42:16]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, no, that way. It must be terrible. I feel so bad. I put this in the notes because my wife brought this up because we have these little businesses, right? And so like our Eternal Spring thing, we actually have to report like our revenues and everything. And the way this works is if you post a loss three years in a row, it's a hobby.
- [42:37]
Richard Campbell
Right.
- [42:38]
Paul Thurrott
So I mean, what the hell is OpenAI then?
- [42:42]
Richard Campbell
Like, I mean like multi billion dollar hobby.
- [42:46]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I mean like, you know, like Apple TV used to be a hobby at Apple, you know, But I would.
- [42:52]
Richard Campbell
Argue I mean, how many years did Amazon lose money?
- [42:54]
Paul Thurrott
I don't know. I mean, forever, really.
- [42:56]
Richard Campbell
A decade. Right.
- [42:57]
Paul Thurrott
So how come they can do it? Is it because they have investments or whatever? I mean, they can. I don't know.
- [43:02]
Richard Campbell
As long as you're publicly traded, you can make anything up you want. As long in the end, like, why haven't shareholders held Microsoft to account? Well, it could be because they're just making lots of money. Like. No, that keeps going up.
- [43:15]
Paul Thurrott
This is my. This is my. Everyone's complicit and complicitness is, you know, no one wants to be the guy I would be because this would be me, like, back.
- [43:25]
Richard Campbell
But this is how Bernie Madoff got away with it for so flipping long. He just keeps telling you you were making 10% on this, and then one day it's like, well, you never were. Why would you believe that?
- [43:37]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. Yeah. I mean, it helps if you just. Like a liar, I guess. I mean, you know, I mean, God help us if these people ever actually believe their own nonsense.
- [43:46]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [43:47]
Richard Campbell
What's the difference between a liar and shared delusion?
- [43:50]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. I don't know. It's like the difference between the House of Representatives and the Congress. No, in the Senate, it doesn't matter. Okay, so there's that. And then this is interesting to me. I just take this from the opposite angle. Mustafa Suleiman came to Microsoft about a year and a half ago.
- [44:13]
Richard Campbell
Right. He was supposed to do the consumer thing for.
- [44:15]
Leo Laporte
Yep.
- [44:16]
Paul Thurrott
And he is. He's. He is running an organization called Microsoft AI.
- [44:20]
Richard Campbell
Right.
- [44:21]
Paul Thurrott
And. And I don't. I don't. I didn't know anything about this guy. I mean, much like everyone else in this industry, frankly, whether it's the guy who co founded and is now the CEO of Anthropic, or, you know, I. All these people, I don't know any of them, you know, and so Microsoft hires people like this and, you know, and I'm like, okay, I don't really. I don't know. I don't know.
- [44:39]
Richard Campbell
They all seem to come from a pretty small club. Like, they all know each other.
- [44:42]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They all went to the same Mensa College or whatever. You know, like, it's. It's. There's something. Yeah, these guys are all Google DeepMind backgrounds, you know, that kind of stuff. But I have to say, I. In that I've been so critical of a lot of stuff Microsoft has done in this space specifically, I like this guy. The more I. The more he talks, the more I think his Head's in the right place. And I appreciate, I don't think that about anyone else in this space, like maybe literally.
- [45:12]
Richard Campbell
Well, and we sort of agreed with Satya that if they're going to do anything consumer, it should be totally separate. And that's what they offered. I just don't know that I've seen a product from them.
- [45:21]
Paul Thurrott
Right. So I mean his, well, his products, so to speak, are. Well, there's the foundational model stuff they're working on. Right. So they're doing that. And he's been very explicit. Like, our goal is to be independent. We're going to build these models so that they can run everything. But how do I say this again, going into this, knowing nothing about him, and if I'm being honest with myself, predisposed to think that anything this guy and anyone in this industry has to say is going to be complete nonsense. Honestly, I think I referenced this maybe last week or two weeks ago he did that video. I think it was tied to that Copilot announcement, probably back in October, where he went back to his hometown and he just went around to different shops and talked to people and look, yes, I know this thing was produced, it's, you know, big budget, probably, whatever, but it felt human and real and, and I was like, okay, okay. Like, I didn't, I didn't watch that and think, oh, this is gross. You know, like you see some of these videos, you're like, oh, geez, come on, man. But I was like, okay, this one. Okay, cool. And he has just created. So Microsoft. We should just back up a little bit. Sorry. Microsoft just redid their agreement yet again with OpenAI. Right. OpenAI is restructuring. Right. So they're going to have a nonprofit. Well, I guess they do already. I guess they've done it. They have a nonprofit parent company and then they have the for profit right company.
- [46:44]
Richard Campbell
They are now set up to IPO if they ever get an sec.
- [46:47]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. And you know they're going to because they insist every time it comes up, they will never have an ipo. But of course they'll have to at some point. But part of the clarity that came out of that, because there was a little bit of clarity, was that we had previously learned that Microsoft and OpenAI, for purposes of their partnership contract agreement, had defined AGI as something that has nothing to do with science. It was literally at the point where OpenAI crossed some revenue figure which has nothing to do with the quality of the service or the models or whatever. So now they've said, actually there is going to be a standard for this. We're going to have an independent third party come in and if OpenAI says, look, we've done it, we've hit AGI, which you should know, because the satellites will destroy the earth. This party, the third party will verify that or not. And if they do, that's when the relationship changes. Right. And so we'll see what happens if that ever happens. Happens. But Suleyman has repositioned this and I think has given some insight into how Microsoft views AGI. Artificial general intelligence. Right. So this is the point at which AI can match human performance at all things.
- [48:07]
Richard Campbell
Pretty much.
- [48:08]
Paul Thurrott
Right. There are people who believe very strongly we're on the cusp of this. Maybe it's already happened. There are people who think this can never happen. OpenAI is very clearly on the positive end of this. They believe it's real and it's going to happen.
- [48:21]
Richard Campbell
It's been their primary recruiting tactic. So of course they have their whole.
- [48:24]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, the entire mantra of this company, really. And Suleiman's basically saying, yeah, we're missing the point here. This isn't really a thing. And what he wants to do is create something that he calls super intelligence, which is not really a new term in the scope of AI, but it's essentially AGI, but without the we are going to replace humans bit. Right. The idea is that AI should always be. Be a helper for humans. It should advance our goals. And that part of that requires constant vigilance to ensure that the AIs we're creating are made in that mode. In other words, very much like an Asimov, you know, the robot, the three laws of robotics. Of robotics. Yeah, he doesn't say that, but he should have. I would have appreciated that, but it's touchy feely.
- [49:14]
Richard Campbell
I'm always, I always concern when you equate anything with science fiction.
- [49:18]
Paul Thurrott
Right, of course, I know, but look, science fiction predicted lots of things. Submarines, bombs, whatever. But yeah, I mean, to be clear, we're talking about the book, not the Will Smith movie. But anyway, it would be very easy to look at this post where he talks about the creation of a team that will be looking for, looking to create superintelligence and AI, what he calls humanist superintelligence as being kind of marketing drivel and kind of touchy feely. Whatever. But you know what? It really tracks with what I see in this guy so far in the couple of times he's been in public talking. And I get the vibe from this guy, which again, completely different from the rest of the industry that he is sincere. He's one of the smart guys in the room. He's one of those guys. Like you said, he's part of that star chamber thing from. Mostly from Google DeepMind originally. Right. And you know, he had his own AI startups after that as well, and then came to Microsoft, et cetera. But. But I feel like maybe alone in that whole group. Like, I think he's in the right frame of mind. So we'll see what comes.
- [50:25]
Richard Campbell
At least saying the right thing.
- [50:27]
Paul Thurrott
Yes, it could just be really good marketing, but it's Microsoft. They don't do good, really do good marketing. So.
- [50:32]
Richard Campbell
Because there's been a lot of argument around this idea that. That the whole making the model bigger isn't working anymore and that it wasn't that good an idea, and that you narrow the scope to specific capabilities so you get more precise results. And what you really want is an orchestrator across an array of smaller models.
- [50:52]
Paul Thurrott
Some of which are local, some of which.
- [50:55]
Richard Campbell
But also to comprehend a large enough set of data for you to call it a super intelligence. Right. Like this is just about what data sets are available to you through this orchestrator. And that is a useful tool. Right. Like right off the bat, let's strip out the science fiction that somehow amorphously, you know, in a counter to all everything that entropy teaches us, that an intelligence emerges out of this pile of electrons and that it has intent. We've never had any software that has intent.
- [51:25]
Paul Thurrott
That's right.
- [51:25]
Richard Campbell
It's right.
- [51:26]
Leo Laporte
It's just.
- [51:26]
Richard Campbell
Just a bit silly, really. But again, it's been steeped in science fiction. You've watched too much Ultron.
- [51:32]
Paul Thurrott
I think, first of all, you can never watch too much Ultron. I don't know what you mean by that.
- [51:37]
Richard Campbell
I'm not going to disagree that James Bader was the ultimate voice. That's such a phenomenal character of a movie.
- [51:46]
Paul Thurrott
Okay.
- [51:46]
Richard Campbell
Yes.
- [51:47]
Leo Laporte
You guys such nerds.
- [51:49]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, I. But yeah, you know, at least Suleiman saying, what is the practical thing, which is these are automation tools for increasing productivity of people.
- [52:01]
Paul Thurrott
I have to tell you, the nerdiest thing I've ever done. And I did it knowing it was going to be the nerdiest thing I ever did, which is we're in a bar a week and a half ago, whatever, talking to someone we know really well there. It was quiet, so we had a lot of time. And my wife said, oh, what's that brooch you have? It was like a leaf thing. And I said, oh, I Know exactly what that is. But there's no way you're nerdy enough to have bought it. She's like, what do you mean by that? And I'm like, this. That's a. That's the lot Florian leaf that the Lembas was wrapped in in the Lord of the Rings. And her eyes were like. She goes, that's exactly what it is. And she's like, what? Why didn't you think I was that nerdy? I'm like, well, now I do. Geez. Now we spent the next 30 minutes talking about the Lord of the Rings. And my wife's over there going, jesus, what have I done? Like, it's like, what happened? She's like, complimenting this woman on jewelry, and it turned into the nerdiest thing that's ever happened to you.
- [52:46]
Leo Laporte
Co Host a show with a guy who lives near Hobbiton and it's going to be all over.
- [52:50]
Richard Campbell
She's down the road.
- [52:51]
Paul Thurrott
I was like, she's like. She said something like. She's like, oh. She's like, you know, your. Your Lord of the Rings or whatever. And I'm like, no, my Lord of the Rings. I'm like, I'm a Tolkien scholar. What are you talking about? It's actually the thing I know the most about, you know?
- [53:05]
Richard Campbell
Like, anyway, okay, here's what I know. It's a hundred. 120 bucks ahead to go into Hobbiton.
- [53:13]
Leo Laporte
What?
- [53:14]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, I would pay.
- [53:17]
Leo Laporte
I don't know.
- [53:18]
Paul Thurrott
It's.
- [53:19]
Leo Laporte
It's not. It's not Weta. It's not.
- [53:21]
Paul Thurrott
Well, they left it there on purpose. I mean.
- [53:25]
Richard Campbell
Yep.
- [53:26]
Leo Laporte
Somebody probably bought it.
- [53:28]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah.
- [53:28]
Richard Campbell
Has built a business around it.
- [53:29]
Leo Laporte
Now I'm gonna make it an amusement park.
- [53:31]
Richard Campbell
Apparently. We can. We can book a private tour to our own designs starting at 3,000. Thousand dollars. You wanna put a package together? You know, we could have an experiment.
- [53:40]
Paul Thurrott
A bunch of the character actors that were the hobbits are still there in character. Like the guy who makes the face every time the younger people do anything. Like, they're all just there being themselves, you know?
- [53:49]
Richard Campbell
Wow. Yeah.
- [53:51]
Leo Laporte
We will be talking about AI, of course, in the next show on this network, Intelligent Machines. And I'm really thrilled. Our guest is. And a guy I'm sure you both know is Kevin Kelly, who was one of the founders of Wired. He was one of the founders of the. Well. And he is. He's got a whole thing called, you know, for AI he thinks of it the future. He's an optimist about AI I was Curious.
- [54:15]
Paul Thurrott
I was. I was. I was. When you think about. People have been in the industry a long time and have a good perspective, like the kind of like he really does.
- [54:24]
Leo Laporte
I mean, he's been there since.
- [54:25]
Paul Thurrott
Well, like him. Okay. Yeah. I'm curious. Like, you want to hear from those guys? Yeah, I'm just. I'm curious.
- [54:29]
Leo Laporte
I can't wait to.
- [54:30]
Paul Thurrott
To talk to him.
- [54:30]
Leo Laporte
We're really excited about this and he has some, I think, kind of different opinions about AI, but he's very positive about it. He thinks of it, though. He says, don't think of it as human intelligence. Think of it as an alien intelligence, which will be useful for our human.
- [54:43]
Richard Campbell
I'm just finding a prot. It's a productivity tool.
- [54:46]
Leo Laporte
Exactly.
- [54:47]
Richard Campbell
Heck of a. It's a re entrant code generator. When you use it for development, it's.
- [54:50]
Paul Thurrott
Like a spell checker that you can ask about the lump on your neck. You know, it's like a weird.
- [54:56]
Leo Laporte
But don't trust what it tells you.
- [54:58]
Paul Thurrott
It's like, oh, man, I would just put something over that. You'll be fine. Yeah.
- [55:03]
Leo Laporte
Kevin wrote the book 15 years ago, what Technology wants, and he was pretty prescient then. I think it'll be very interesting. Anyway, that's coming up right after Windows Weekly. I just wanted to mention that. Should we take a break now or. What would be. What would work for you, my friend?
- [55:20]
Paul Thurrott
I'll. Thank you for asking. Asking Leo, I. No, I don't care.
- [55:24]
Leo Laporte
Let's do it now. It's. It's a good time to do it. And we'll continue on. You're watching Windows Weekly with Paul Thurat from thorat.com and leanpub.com where his books live. And of course, Richard Campbell of.net Rocks and Runners radio fame. Our show today brought to you by our friends at Outsystems. Speaking of AI, this is. This is brilliant. They are the number one AI powered, low code development platform. They've been doing this longer than anybody. Organizations all over the world are creating custom apps, as you were just talking about, Richard, and AI agents on the Outsystems platform. With good reason, because Outsystems is all about outcomes, helping teams quickly deploy apps and AI agents and delivery results. And man, if you go to the website, you will see the success stories there. They're endless. They helped a top US bank, a name you would know, deploy an app for customers to open new accounts on any device. Huge success, 75% faster onboarding times. They helped one of the world's Largest brewers deploy a solution to automate tasks and clear bottlenecks, which delivered a savings of about 1 million development hours. They even helped a global insurer accelerate development of a portal and app app for their employees, which delivered a 360 degree view of customers and a way for insurance agencies to grow policy sales. The Outsystems platform, it's truly a game changer for development teams. With AI powered low code, it's a perfect match, right? Teams can build custom future proof applications and AI agents at the speed of buying. With fully automated architecture, security integrations, data flows and permissions all built right in. It really solves the buy versus build conundrum. You can do it as easily as buying, as quickly as buying, but you get a custom solution and you don't have to worry about security and integrations because all that's built in, all of that just comes with Outsystems. Without systems, it's so easy to create your own purpose built apps and agents. There's really no need to consider off the shelf software solutions ever again. This is the last solution you'll ever buy. OutSystems number one AI powered low code development platform. Learn more at outsystems.com TWiT that's outsystems.com TWiIT this is to me, this to my mind, this is exactly the marriage you want. It's. It's not five coding, it's AI supported low code. It's Chef's Kiss. It's perfect. OutSystems.com we thank them so much for their support of Windows Weekly.
- [58:14]
Paul Thurrott
As we speak here on Wednesday we're at the midway point of. NET conf 2025. This is the three day Microsoft conference for. NET. They launched net 10 on Tuesday yesterday, but also Visual Studio 2026 which has some really cool changes. So I've been using the Insiders version they used to. I can't remember the language they used.
- [58:35]
Richard Campbell
Before, but the Insider edition of 2026.
- [58:37]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, yeah. So this is a much better application than the previous version. They made some real nice kind of foundational changes to it. So if anyone who's used Visual Studio knows, I'm sure you click compile or whatever or debug or whatever it is and the thing hangs.
- [59:00]
Richard Campbell
It's a bit of a battleship.
- [59:01]
Paul Thurrott
Everything was running on the same UI thread basically. So now it doesn't do that. It's actually much more performant. It's also better looking. It's got a nice swin UI kind of user interface now color themes and Stuff which I don't really use, but it's definitely better. But the bigger change may be. Well, no, that's a big change. But as big maybe is they're going to change the way that they update Visual Studio Garage forward and they're actually going to follow the Visual Studio code model. That app is updated every month and so I believe it's the first day of the month they released an update named after the previous month. So November 1st you get the October 2025 visual studio code update, whatever.
- [59:42]
Richard Campbell
And they were doing quarterly updates to Studio. It was getting a lot of updates. If you were keeping up with them.
- [59:48]
Paul Thurrott
There is only one app that gets up. No, that's not true. Well, there's one major app that gets updated more than Visual Studio and I am absolutely going to discuss that later in the show. It drives me insane. But Visual Studio, yes, a lot of times I will use it and it will say, oh, there's an update. Do you want to install it now or do you want to install it when you close the app? You're like, all right, I'll just do it when I close the app. Then you think you're done. And of course installer app comes up and it does this thing. It's like, jeez, now we're going to do this every month. Maybe there'll be smaller updates. I don't know. Net10 is out. Net10 has updates across the stack. Of course, the big one always is performance. It's always double digit performance. Somehow.
- [60:32]
Richard Campbell
Stephen Taub is a genius, but this is really a byproduct of them using. NET inside of Azure. Where performance equals money.
- [60:40]
Paul Thurrott
Exactly. That guy, every year. Yeah, he writes a book Home and I watched several hours of this event yesterday, including his talk, and he did a neat demonstration of this. It's literally like, here's an app, it's running on what do you call it? Net framework 4.8, whatever, here's whatever the benchmark. And then here it is running on 9. Net9 and then here it is on 10 and it's like it wasn't as big of a jump from 9 to 10 as it was from 4.8 to 9, but it was double digit. You know, it's really impressive.
- [61:15]
Richard Campbell
Substantial. Yeah, yeah. And that was true 8 to 9 as well. Like they've just been consistent. They've even done case studies of Microsoft internal products getting significant performance boosts just by switching Framework versions.
- [61:28]
Paul Thurrott
One of the big problems for Microsoft, honestly, with. Net as it was originally envisioned, like the, the pre. NET Core Net, I guess, if that makes sense, was that adoption internally was really low. There was a point where the Vista team was like, we're not shipping any Net in this product. We're not doing that now. And I think it was Scott Hanselman, but one of the presenters, it might have been Steven, it was one of the guys. But they brought up here's all the places we're using it and then here are the benefits we saw. And actually one of the biggest benefits was also to Bing. Right. Which is one of the things you might not think about too much. But same idea as Azure. It's like this plant scale, cloud service, whatever. Every percentage point matters. And look, depending on the complexity of your app, I assume Bing is slightly more complex than the notepad app that I write.
- [62:22]
Leo Laporte
But.
- [62:24]
Paul Thurrott
For a lot of people. Not all people, absolutely. I mean people have problems, but they have upgrade assist. Like this is called an upgrade Assistant wizard or whatever. But you can often just go into Visual Studio and say it's using net 9 now, use net 10 and then recompile and it's just, you know, you're good to go.
- [62:41]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [62:42]
Paul Thurrott
I mean, so they've done something really good there.
- [62:45]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [62:47]
Paul Thurrott
Where they haven't done something good is not Net, but is the Windows app SDK, which is the Steam steaming pile of terribleness. And this past year I've been trying to work, you know, my app out to build it out to support multiple tabs, et cetera. I basically figured out there's no good way to do it with WPF because those controls are antiquated and they haven't.
- [63:08]
Richard Campbell
Gotten the same level of love.
- [63:10]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, they're just not the modern. You know, if you want something to look like modern apps in Windows look like the ones that Microsoft makes, you have to, to pretty much use. Not always, but you pretty much have to use the Windows app SDK. It's terrible. And I've been approached several times by Uno Platform. So Uno Platform is one of the many kind of Net adjacent companies they're actually partnering with. Net on a bunch of stuff like Avalon's another one where Avalonia. Yeah, Avalonia. But I say Avalon. I'm sorry, Avalonia.
- [63:41]
Richard Campbell
Avalon was the code name for wpf.
- [63:43]
Paul Thurrott
Wpf, Yep, yep. Where there's this kind of feeling that Microsoft landed on something really special with wpf. Like I, I, I wish I could go back in time and understand it 20 years ago the way I do now, but it must have seen like technology handed down by aliens. Like, it's amazing. And so a lot of these companies as Microsoft has moved off of that and tried to do the Metro thing and then the window, the Windows runtime from Windows 8 and then what became the universal Windows platform in Windows 10 and then what became the Windows app SDK today is like, yeah, but this other thing is actually kind of perfect. Why don't we just keep doing that? And so Uno Platform is one of a few and probably the biggest and best maybe of the kind of third party WPF alternatives, but open source and cross platform. Right. And so I met with them at Build and they were like, hey, look, just give us your GitHub repository address and we'll put like a junior engineer on it. Because I was having all these struggles with this thing and I was like, oh. I'm like, oh, no, I appreciate it. I'm like, I felt weird about that, right? And then they just reached out to me and they're like, hey, we got this big announcement coming on at. Net Conf, but we have to talk to you before Monday. I was going to Oaxaca that day. We were delayed two hours. So literally the second I got to the hotel room, opened a laptop and met with these three guys, what they showed me was my app, which they used this AI bit. It has an AI agent and these MCPS built into the 2.0 version of the Uno platform Studio, which is their integrated ID that does the visual designer stuff that my Microsoft doesn't do, by the way. Yeah, among other things. And you know, hot reload, but also hot design, really powerful and excellent. And they, they wrote a prompt that said just basically modernize this thing and make it run on all the platforms that we support, which is like Linux, web Assembly, Mac, Android, whatever. And they show me a video of it and it's like it took it three minutes to make this. And I was like, my whole life is a waste of time. I don't even know what I'm doing anymore. But it's beautiful. So you'll be able to see this demo for yourself tomorrow. One of the guys from Uno Platform is presenting tomorrow at dotnet. Conf. It's community day is the third day, so you'll be able to see this for yourself. And I was just like, I can't believe I have any hair left. I can't even tell you how hard this has been for me. And like, it's like you just, yeah, just did it in three minutes. It's like, that's nice.
- [66:30]
Leo Laporte
So anyway, how come you're not@.conf?
- [66:34]
Paul Thurrott
It's for. Oh, it's first. I can't. It's all virtual.
- [66:36]
Leo Laporte
Oh, so you can.
- [66:37]
Paul Thurrott
I've been watching it.
- [66:37]
Leo Laporte
I've been watching while you're making. Milking the cows.
- [66:39]
Paul Thurrott
You can? Yeah, yeah. Yes.
- [66:41]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I. If I was in town, if I was home, I would be a host. I would take a four hour block at the studio, which I've done before.
- [66:50]
Leo Laporte
But I'm not Daily Wick. I mean, this is your thing.
- [66:52]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, absolutely. And I love doing that. It's so much fun to work with those guys. It's really a ton of fun. But hey, your grandbaby's only this size.
- [66:59]
Leo Laporte
Yes.
- [67:00]
Richard Campbell
Right.
- [67:01]
Leo Laporte
I'm so proud of you. That's really true. This is what counts.
- [67:04]
Richard Campbell
And had. We have such a good time. She's gonna come back a toddler. She's learning to crawl like right now. So it's, it's happening.
- [67:11]
Leo Laporte
How do you compare Pulp Uno platform to something like Visual Studio? Is it.
- [67:16]
Richard Campbell
I mean, it's the UI layer, right? Like they've done. They approach the way to do UI really openly, you know, so you still use it with.
- [67:28]
Paul Thurrott
Well, there's a tool that is. Well, you, you actually, you could. But they have their own tool, which is like a Visual Studio quilt.
- [67:35]
Leo Laporte
But you do the design first in.
- [67:37]
Paul Thurrott
Well, the Zuno platform and then the platform studio is the, the code that, you know, the design editor.
- [67:43]
Richard Campbell
And this is their new tool. Like they, they're showing one of the better integrations of using LLMs as part of your coding process for.
- [67:49]
Leo Laporte
Oh, it's AI.
- [67:51]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, it's really powerful. And. Oh, it's. And it's Jerome that's doing the demo. Yeah. And he's the cto. That guy's great, man. It'll look fantastic.
- [68:00]
Leo Laporte
So you, you liken it, Paul, to your, your old friend Delphi. And is it in terms of ease of use or.
- [68:08]
Paul Thurrott
I mean, it's such a different era. These things are kind of hard to equate to. What I would say is we had Visual Basic back in the day, right. And that evolved and then we had Visual Studio. They integrated that kind of underlying visual editor into Visual Studio. We had Windows forms and that was like. The last one was kind of like a pixel perfect designer like Grot. You could just like, like drag a control and move it around on a form, that kind of thing. The problem is we have, you know, even when at the time it came out, we have resolution, independent displays, or you can scale displays and we have big displays with giant resolution. But like this App would look like really tiny, et cetera. So, you know, when they move to wpf, they address that, and it works great, but you can't. They've never successfully made a visual design, and it works really well with it. They did that. Was it called expression or whatever, that visual. They had a visual. They briefly had something, but it just never happened, you know? So I think people who write in whatever WPF or newer. Whatever it is, writing XAML by hand for the most part, I would imagine.
- [69:15]
Leo Laporte
You know, oh, my God.
- [69:16]
Paul Thurrott
Which I don't actually mind. I feel like a lot of these people would just be used to that and just. They don't care. It's fine.
- [69:22]
Leo Laporte
But it's just the way that.
- [69:23]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, so. But these guys figured it out. You know, that was one of the big things. And so Hot Reload is a. A feature where you don't have to stop an app that's running. You can change the code and just the best. That's how Visual Studio does it. Code does it.
- [69:39]
Richard Campbell
It's a feature of the. NET Framework. So anything that runs can do that.
- [69:42]
Paul Thurrott
But they also added the notion of what they call hot design. So it's not just the code. It's like you can change the visual design. You'll re environment, and it changes it live as it's running. It speeds the process up. Dramatic. It's really nice.
- [69:55]
Leo Laporte
There's a Great story on folklore.org about the early days of the Macintosh, where Steve Jobs, Chris Espinosa, who's still at Apple, by the way, the longest Apple, which is incredible.
- [70:06]
Paul Thurrott
He's got to be like 70 years old now.
- [70:07]
Leo Laporte
He started when he was 14. Anyway, he was tasked with designing the calculator, the desk accessory calculator for the year, for the first Macintosh. And Steve would look at it and say, no, no, no, I don't like it. You got to fix the buttons or whatever. And after four or five times of Steve going, no, that's not it, he's like. He said, okay, you do it. He designed basically what this is, a UI designer with sliders and menus and said, Steve.
- [70:31]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. Like, it was the Visual Basic type of thing, where it's like, I think.
- [70:35]
Leo Laporte
That must be the first visual design tool, because before the Mac, everything was command line anyway.
- [70:40]
Paul Thurrott
Right.
- [70:40]
Leo Laporte
This has got to be the first one.
- [70:42]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. I mean, HyperCard came later.
- [70:44]
Leo Laporte
Later, yeah. No, but in fact, HyperCard used the same idea.
- [70:47]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. And then, of course, what became Visual Basic, which was. What's this guy's name? Cooper.
- [70:52]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. Alan Cooper.
- [70:53]
Paul Thurrott
Alan Cooper who lives just another genius.
- [70:56]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, he's great. I love Alan. He's quite an iconoclast. I've hung out with him a little bit because he lives in area. But see, I think that that's really cool. I mean, so Here we are, 1983. 82.
- [71:07]
Paul Thurrott
Right.
- [71:08]
Leo Laporte
And because Steve Jobs is such a PETA, Chris says, Fine, you do it. By the way, jobs in 10 minutes got it just where he wanted it. And that's the calculator.
- [71:17]
Paul Thurrott
So the, you know, the original Mac was, was something like 512 by 384 or whatever. The screen was black and white, easy. So it's simple to target a UI for something that is static and small. Excuse me, low resolution. But over time. One of the things I distinctly remember in the buildup to Longhorn or. Well, the build up to what became Vista, I guess, was you'd go to a windhacker or whatever and they would show off apps you could kind of stretch out to make them bigger in real time so they would look better on a high resolution or high DPI display, which no one normal had at the time. And we were like, oh my God, that's incredible. And they don't really. To this day you still don't do that. Like we don't have this notion of I want this app to be this size and I want this one to be. You don't really do that. But that was what they were showing. Because it was just showing off the capability basically. But that really put the wrench into the flywheel. Because once you can have an arbitrary screen resolution, dpi, whatever it is, I mean, you can't do a pixel visual editor anymore. You can't. It's just impossible. You know, they tried.
- [72:28]
Richard Campbell
Makes it very difficult. Without a doubt.
- [72:30]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, well, right. Nothing, I guess.
- [72:31]
Richard Campbell
Nothing. Well, and one would argue Visual Basics Form Editor was the anomaly. You know, we haven't been able to do this on the HTML side either. Right. It's just not that simple.
- [72:44]
Leo Laporte
Yep.
- [72:45]
Paul Thurrott
And Microsoft tried and failed with that.
- [72:47]
Richard Campbell
You know, and we tried with lots of other different environments. And creating visual designers is stunningly difficult. And so you have this one weird reference point that everybody wants to go back to and it's like, can we.
- [72:58]
Paul Thurrott
Just have Visual Basic again? It's like you can. Well, you can, except CPGA is the top resolution. Well, and it'll be an official.
- [73:05]
Richard Campbell
That you're working in. Right. It was a multiple document interface design with a file over here and a help over there. Like it's archaic. We don't make sites like that anymore. We don't make apps like that anymore.
- [73:17]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, that was early on, before we had MSN or whatever. There was the blackboard, a Blackbird tool, Internet studio. And then they did inner dev, which brought it back to the. It was just code, you know, visual inner dev was code. You know, there was no real. I mean, there was.
- [73:31]
Richard Campbell
They tried.
- [73:32]
Paul Thurrott
Well, they had the HTML, there was an HTML ActiveX control. I don't remember what it was called, but instead of, you would have an Active X control and on that surface you could put ui.
- [73:42]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [73:42]
Paul Thurrott
Because it only run in IE and.
- [73:44]
Richard Campbell
You know, it was a workaround for an actual dynamic user interface.
- [73:49]
Paul Thurrott
So. Yep.
- [73:49]
Richard Campbell
You know, we've had this battle over and over again. You want a pixel perfect, you have to live within constraints of the. Of the viewport. If you want flexibility, you have to deal with. Not pixel perfect.
- [73:59]
Paul Thurrott
Right. Yeah. Yep. I, I feel like. Well, like I said, I. I don't have. I don't mind writing this AML code, but I just mind how much of it there is, you know, but it is verbose. It is unbelievably long. Like. Yeah, yeah. It's like put up a UI and.
- [74:15]
Richard Campbell
It'S like the, you know, guys has done such a good job of bundling that up for you so you don't have to look at it.
- [74:19]
Leo Laporte
Reminds me of the early days of podcasting when I was handwriting the RSS feed for the shows in xml. Right, right, right. I don't know what XAML looks like, but I can imagine it's not right. It's.
- [74:31]
Richard Campbell
No, you think about too much XML and you're proud right there.
- [74:33]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's what I thought.
- [74:36]
Paul Thurrott
XML was definitely. My. My point. Like, as a pseudo developer, I was like, yeah, I give up. I'm just not doing this. I can't. I just don't.
- [74:43]
Leo Laporte
It, you know, I mean, it makes sense, but it is a pain to do by hand. I mean, it's, It's. It's a little bit. It's like, oh, well, HTML times 10.
- [74:51]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. It's just proof that not everything Tim Berners Lee does is perfect.
- [74:55]
Paul Thurrott
Wow.
- [74:56]
Leo Laporte
But it wasn't. I think he never thought humans would see it.
- [75:00]
Richard Campbell
He actually described it as a human readable markup language.
- [75:03]
Leo Laporte
Oh, he did?
- [75:04]
Richard Campbell
That's how he described it. Sorry.
- [75:05]
Paul Thurrott
This is. You know, Microsoft has these various tools. We can dump something into xml and for that purpose, it's human readable. And then you open, you're like, what. What is this thing? It's like, it's like, you know, I don't know what human could read this, but it's not this human. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, yeah, he said.
- [75:21]
Leo Laporte
I remember interviewing him and he said, I never thought the URL scheme would be visible to humans. I thought machines would just handle that. But so it's kind of ironic that he thought that humans would want to read X.
- [75:33]
Paul Thurrott
We said there's price of people who are like H, T, T S slash, slash, actually type the whole thing out.
- [75:41]
Leo Laporte
You know, for tech, tech TV, they would do that. They would say HTTPs://,/, www.google.com actually, it wasn't Google that wasn't around that Yahoo, Altavista or something. And I said to them, you know, you don't have to type that. And they said, what? Really? So we took that off, but they were still typing w putting www.yahoo.com and I said, probably don't have to type that either.
- [76:07]
Richard Campbell
Just say Yahoo.com isn't that nicer?
- [76:11]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, and it was until the last 10 years or less where browsers just start to hide that stuff by default. It's like it's going to give you a simplified version of the.
- [76:20]
Leo Laporte
I actually turned that off. I always want to see the.
- [76:22]
Paul Thurrott
No, I do too. But I mean, you can imagine they probably did it on phone first because of the space limitations. And then someone was like, you know, this would be good for normal people on a computer. Like, no one needs to see this. But actually, yeah, I agree with you. I don't turn it on either.
- [76:37]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, because I mean, that's how you know that you're not going to a fraudulent site. Among other things. You want to see all things. Okay, I've lost track of what's going on.
- [76:49]
Paul Thurrott
Well, we're done with the dev bit.
- [76:51]
Leo Laporte
I think you're done with dev.
- [76:52]
Paul Thurrott
I've ranted enough.
- [76:54]
Leo Laporte
Can I show you my new Aura Inc. And then you can.
- [76:58]
Paul Thurrott
I was telling my wife about it. I'm really excited about this.
- [77:01]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, this is cool. This is our sponsor for this segment of Windows Weekly. You know the name Aura? I know you do. Because consistently they're picked up is the number one digital frame company. But now they have something new. Imagine if you know you've got. Do you. First of all, I love having family photos on the walls. One of the things we like to do is going, you know, going up the stairs, you have the photos as you go up the stairs, you know, in the living room you have the best photos. But wouldn't it be nice if those photos could be updated. Like, I've been looking at the same picture for five years. Wouldn't it be nice if you could change them every day? Let me show you. This is it and it's so cool. You can with the Aura, Inc. This is Aura's. Aura's new all new cordless. Look at no wires, kids. All new cordless color E paper frame. Let me give you a nice close up look. This is a picture I took at Herald Square in New York City of old Horace Greeley with the pigeons all over him and the beautiful modern skyscrapers behind him. It's one of my favorite photos, but this just came up this morning, right? Meet Ink, Aura's first ever cordless color e paper frame. Featuring a sleek 0.6 inch profile and a softly lit 13.3 inch display. Ink feels like a print, but it functions like a digital frame and perhaps most importantly, lives completely untethered by cords. With a rechargeable battery, lasts up to three months on a single charge. Unlimited storage and the ability to invite others to add photos via the Aura Frames app. It is the cordless wall hanging frame you've been waiting for. And this would be a great gift for the holidays. You know, I can't wait to send.
- [78:53]
Paul Thurrott
One to my mom.
- [78:53]
Leo Laporte
She loves the digital frame, but it has to be plugged in. And it's emittive, right? It's a screen. It's just another screen. And I don't think anybody wants another screen, especially hanging on the wall. This is E ink. It's E paper, so it's reflective. It's just like a photo. They have put a lot of work into this. Aura has really done some interesting work with this. It's kind of a breakthrough in e paper technology. Ink, that's the frame transforms millions of tiny ink capsules into your favorite photos, renders them in beautiful vintage tones. I mean, this is something I'm proud to have hanging on the wall. It's hard to see here because there's so much light. But even with all the light in the studio, if I can get the reflections off, you could see that it really, it's beautiful. It holds up in all kinds of light. But to save battery when nobody's around, when it's dark at night, it turns off. There's a lot of innovation, a lot of design in this. This bezel looks like a real frame. It's graphite inspired. The matte is paper textured. The glossy glass front makes it, you know, look like a piece of decor. Not another screen in your House, not a device. I love the app. The Aura app has always been best in class. Unlimited free photos. You can download the app. You connect it to wifi. You give this to somebody like a grandparent like my mom. And I can now send her photos that automatically show up. It's a perfect gift for anyone who appreciates innovative design and cutting edge technology. There are a lot of little touches that I really like. This can be landscape or portrait. You choose. And they you can hang it, of course. But they also comes with this really nice magnetic metal stand that attaches super easily, doesn't fall off. Oh, by putting it upside down. Super easily, doesn't fall off. And so you can also put it on your desk or on your dresser on your bedside table with a stand in either portrait or landscape, it just looks great. Sleek, subtle and stunning. Ink blends the warmth of a printed photo with the versatility of an e paper frame. No chords, no fuss. Just your memories beautifully displayed wherever you want them. Head to auraframes.com to see for yourself. Support the show. By the way, mention us. Say I saw it on Windows Weekly at checkout. That'll help us a lot. That's auraframes.com Inc. A U R A frames.com Inc. There's buttons on the top. You can change it manually. You can actually have the photo change every other hour if you want. I like it overnight because a that saves battery. You don't if you know the more you change it, the more it's going to use battery. Like I said, I haven't run out and I have been doing a lot of manual changing. But the other reason I like it overnight is I wake up in the morning and I gotta. I have a new picture from Mark. You know, va thousands of pictures. So it's always kind of a fun surprise. This is a. Actually, this is an AI generated image of me playing chess. It's just finishing up the page turn. There it is. I think it really does a nice job. I really like that. That auraframes.com inc. Keep it right here on my desk and we've got lots of family photos in it. And I hope my mom's not listening. It's going to be a great gift for the holidays. Auraframes.com Inc. Xbox time.
- [82:27]
Paul Thurrott
Mr. T. I feel like it's a pretty good bet that your mother's not listening.
- [82:32]
Leo Laporte
I think you're right.
- [82:34]
Paul Thurrott
Just kind of throw that out there.
- [82:35]
Leo Laporte
Are you on now? She. You know how we know? Because she calls me during the show.
- [82:39]
Richard Campbell
All right. Yeah.
- [82:40]
Paul Thurrott
Is that the right guy going to talk about AI again?
- [82:43]
Leo Laporte
He loves the AI.
- [82:45]
Paul Thurrott
He loves it.
- [82:46]
Leo Laporte
Just loves it. I've switched this to the, the portrait mode which it does automatically.
- [82:51]
Paul Thurrott
That's so good.
- [82:51]
Leo Laporte
You could. I think that's kind of nice too. If you have the right. If you take a lot of portrait.
- [82:56]
Paul Thurrott
Mode pictures that hang like that.
- [83:00]
Richard Campbell
It's gorgeous.
- [83:01]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [83:02]
Paul Thurrott
Drool words.
- [83:04]
Leo Laporte
Xbox. I was thinking of sending mom an Xbox for Christmas.
- [83:07]
Paul Thurrott
What do you. I mean I, I don't know actually you know what?
- [83:11]
Leo Laporte
She wants a Steam machine.
- [83:13]
Paul Thurrott
Right. So this was just announced as I sat down to do the show so I don't know too much about it but Steam Valve has announced a new Steam machine which is a cube shaped Xbox Series X looking.
- [83:30]
Leo Laporte
Is it my. Am I wrong? Didn't they have a Steam.
- [83:34]
Paul Thurrott
They did, yeah.
- [83:34]
Leo Laporte
Machine. We're not talking the Steam Deck, the handheld. They had that one U console, right?
- [83:39]
Paul Thurrott
That's right.
- [83:40]
Leo Laporte
Wait a minute. Does it come with VR helmet too?
- [83:42]
Paul Thurrott
No, that's going to be an optional thing they're going to do. So also by the way working with amd as are Sony and Microsoft on a custom chipset for this thing, you know, x64 obviously.
- [83:58]
Leo Laporte
Will it run Linux or Windows?
- [84:00]
Paul Thurrott
Well, it's going to be that. It's going to be Linux, right. It will be the version, you know the Steam os. Right.
- [84:06]
Leo Laporte
Which is. They have a really nice OS actually. Yeah.
- [84:09]
Paul Thurrott
So this thing is. Billing is like six times as fast as the Steam deck. It's like yeah, so is my grandmother's carriage, but whatever. But you know this will give you look in our space and Xbox. We're debating whether Microsoft should be doing what they're doing. I think they're on the right path. I know that Windows today is not necessarily ideal on a dedicated gaming machine but I feel like they can get it there. I mean that's basically what an Xbox is anyway really when you think about it. But this is also. It's a PC essentially. Right. I mean the thing I like about.
- [84:41]
Leo Laporte
It is it's really good for gaming on Linux. The Steam deck was too because developers want their game to run on a Steam deck and they'll want it to.
- [84:49]
Paul Thurrott
Run on a Steam deck. That's right. And then now you just get it, you know, like it's. Yeah, it's starting to. Yeah, they, they, they. I don't remember the number but I, I think it was 80% plus games. Like I'm supposed to run great on Linux. My experience has not been great but I've Been using Zorin OS recently on a, maybe a non optimal laptop as far as gaming is concerned. But it, you know, whatever. Anyway, it does work. I mean, it's just not, you know, same frame rates or whatever, but this would probably be pretty good. And you know, you see this thing and you're like, okay, so they have a controller, obviously the box. Okay. And then they're doing like the VR headset thing and it's like, okay. It's like all the stuff Microsoft can't do, make new hardware and then get people excited about it. So we'll see what happens here. But I'm kind of surprised.
- [85:38]
Leo Laporte
We don't know pricing, we don't know availability.
- [85:40]
Paul Thurrott
There's a lot of questions. I don't personally know anything about it. I mean, they announced it in a tweet.
- [85:45]
Richard Campbell
Tweet.
- [85:45]
Paul Thurrott
And then there's a video I think on YouTube.
- [85:46]
Leo Laporte
I'm running the video right now.
- [85:48]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, I was reading the article. Yeah. So I, I think, I'm sure it'll be pretty good. Huh, huh. Now they have a, now they do have a.
- [86:03]
Richard Campbell
Well, anything that drives more business into Steam itself, right?
- [86:06]
Paul Thurrott
Yep.
- [86:08]
Leo Laporte
Do you think that this is a precursor to dumping Windows entirely? No.
- [86:16]
Paul Thurrott
I mean, there's no reason why throw away customers, right? When I think of like what Microsoft is doing with Xbox right now, what goes through my brain is they're going to have to adapt Xbox as a platform so the developers are essentially required to ship games that will work on a dedicated console, a handheld gaming device or just a PC, you know, which is not a hard sell, you know, it's just, you know, but you're basically making it the same thing. And I think from, if you look at it from Steam, slash Valve's perspective, you know, they're going to want you to target both, right? I mean, because they, I'm sure. Well, I'm not sure actually, but I assume that some large percentage, like majority percentage of their sales is still from like Windows PCs. Right. But bringing more and more of it in house makes some sense, right? I mean, I don't know. You know, this is also in a sense a comparatively small enough business that they can do something like this. And it makes sense. Like one of the problems we keep talking about with Microsoft is this whole billion dollar thing. And it's like, I'm sure the financial people at Microsoft look at what Xbox wants to do with hardware and they're like, explain to us when you made a profit on hardware again, you know, because, you know, they just, you know, they're nervous about it. I'm a little surprised there isn't a, like an upgraded Steam deck to kind.
- [87:42]
Richard Campbell
Of accompany this, but might come later too. Do you see how this thing takes off? And do they need the horsepower?
- [87:48]
Paul Thurrott
It just felt like it sat still for a while.
- [87:52]
Richard Campbell
But these guys don't need to make money off this hardware. If it pays for itself. Everybody who uses this becomes a Steam customer. And let's face it, the who's got a better collection of emails of gamers than Steam.
- [88:04]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I mean the thing is like cooperative. I have a lot of games in Steam. I. I actually don't really like Steam as an app. Like, it's pretty terrible. It's like malware. It's always running in the background and.
- [88:17]
Richard Campbell
It'S always trying to sell you something. Right. It's not just being your.
- [88:20]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, it's always a bit. Yes. Stupid announcement and a non standard window popping up in the middle of the screen. But, but, but whatever. Okay, so my opinion is whatever it is, who cares? But super popular, right? I mean this is obviously the, the big platform on PC.
- [88:34]
Richard Campbell
So yeah, you kind of don't want to buy a game that isn't on Steam because Steam takes care of that for you, right?
- [88:39]
Paul Thurrott
Yep, yep. Yeah. So yeah.
- [88:43]
Richard Campbell
Anyway, it says, I would argue it's a natural monopoly.
- [88:47]
Leo Laporte
You can install another operating system on it.
- [88:49]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, because people could do that on it. Yeah. And you can do that on a Steam deck. Right? You can install Windows.
- [88:55]
Leo Laporte
Interesting.
- [88:55]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I mean, look from their perspective. Whatever. You're still playing our games. Who cares?
- [89:00]
Leo Laporte
She's a streamer. She's got her stream deck in front of her. She's probably running obs because you can install apps on it too.
- [89:08]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, there you go.
- [89:09]
Leo Laporte
It's interesting. Yep.
- [89:11]
Paul Thurrott
Boy.
- [89:12]
Leo Laporte
Yes, that's great for streaming.
- [89:14]
Paul Thurrott
So I just want to collectively watch the industry rally around this, talk about what geniuses they are and, and just remind everyone Xbox is doing the same thing and you think they're idiots. Like they're doing exactly the same thing. Right, whatever. It's fine.
- [89:28]
Leo Laporte
It just. But so consoles aren't dead.
- [89:32]
Richard Campbell
Well, they might be pining for the fjords.
- [89:34]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I feel like consoles have hit their natural plateau, maybe is the way to say it. Although we're about to talk about another console.
- [89:45]
Leo Laporte
It only has 16 gigs of RAM.
- [89:48]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, that's interesting. But I think you can, I bet you can upgrade it.
- [89:51]
Leo Laporte
You know, maybe.
- [89:54]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I would be surprised if you couldn't. But I mean, I know you can upgrade the SSDs like, there's two slots.
- [89:59]
Leo Laporte
It's a Zen 4 chip.
- [90:01]
Paul Thurrott
Yep.
- [90:02]
Leo Laporte
It's using their rDNA 3 custom GPUs.
- [90:08]
Paul Thurrott
So Zen 4 is not the current generation, by the way.
- [90:11]
Leo Laporte
It's not the high end.
- [90:13]
Richard Campbell
If you look, look at reducing the price.
- [90:15]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, the, the legion go to. That I'm reviewing is a Zen 5 based, whatever that's called, like a Z2 chip or whatever, Z2 extreme. So it's probably. I'm sure it's better in some ways and I'm sure it's maybe even more efficient in some ways. But, but, yeah, but this is probably just, you know, broadly, you know, broadly compatible. I don't know what they're targeting. I wonder if this isn't a, like a 1080p pretty much experience, you know, for the most part, maybe on, like a. On a, you know, like a modern game.
- [90:44]
Richard Campbell
But what's the price when this thing's a slam dunk? Is it 200 bucks?
- [90:48]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. Well, 200 bucks would be an absolute slam dunk, but do you think, how could they ever get that low?
- [90:54]
Leo Laporte
The PlayStation 5, by 50 bucks, right?
- [90:56]
Richard Campbell
400 bucks?
- [90:57]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [90:58]
Paul Thurrott
Well, PlayStation 5 is very expensive. Right. I mean, that's, that's the competition. Yeah. I mean, I feel like the PlayStation is probably a lot more powerful, frankly.
- [91:11]
Leo Laporte
I mean, yeah, they're not trying to. You're saying they're not trying to compete with it?
- [91:14]
Paul Thurrott
I don't think so. I mean, I'm not sure how many people would be like, PlayStation 5, Steam something, you know, but I don't know. This is, this is the. Well, like I said, this is what Microsoft's trying to do. We want to turn a Windows PC into an appliance.
- [91:32]
Leo Laporte
That was an inadvertent RIM shot. I wasn't commenting.
- [91:35]
Paul Thurrott
I was like. I didn't say anything funny. I'm sorry. Sorry. No, it's okay. I expect random sound effects at any time. It's. It's perfectly fine.
- [91:45]
Leo Laporte
There it is.
- [91:46]
Richard Campbell
All right, here we go.
- [91:48]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. Oh, it's just like I'm in Mexico again. Oh, wait, here I am.
- [91:51]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [91:52]
Leo Laporte
Oh, I do want a recording of the Gas man so I could play it. That would be fun to have on my Steam Deck. Stream deck.
- [92:00]
Paul Thurrott
That would be easy. It's probably going by right now anyhow. Okay, so there's that. That just happened. So I still need to wrap my head around it. But yeah, there's no pricing yet. It's wish list stuff. I don't. Is this going to happen before the holidays. I mean it's already.
- [92:13]
Leo Laporte
They say next year, don't they? I mean.
- [92:15]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, is it next year? Okay, yeah, I haven't had a chance to really digest this yet, but that.
- [92:21]
Leo Laporte
HDMI 2.0 and display 0.14, so presumably it could run 4K.
- [92:27]
Paul Thurrott
I don't know. Yeah, but those two are not the latest specs of those things. Right? I mean that's fine. I mean this is not like an OG Switch level thing, but the Steam deck has done well with, you know, kind of lower than average specs I would say. And it's kind of sat still for a long time too, which is a little weird to me. But this is all, you know, I mean like you said, it can run other things, but most people, people are probably just going to run the game, you know, in which case it's probably fine. And Linux has fewer resource requirements than Windows right now, so that should be okay.
- [93:04]
Leo Laporte
The VR play is interesting too.
- [93:06]
Richard Campbell
Kind of surprised to see that a friend of mine that I know is involved in the space. I said, so what about this thing? He says, oh, you mean the Gabe cube? And I'm like the best name ever.
- [93:17]
Paul Thurrott
Gabe from his super yacht. He's like, make a boy box, make.
- [93:20]
Richard Campbell
A box, make a Gabe cube.
- [93:22]
Paul Thurrott
I got a TV with nothing attached to it. Let's go.
- [93:27]
Leo Laporte
Do you think they'll will they offer TV capabilities? They don't have a pass through so I guess not.
- [93:32]
Paul Thurrott
I, no, I think that I look at this as like a kind of play console. Right.
- [93:37]
Richard Campbell
Like there's no reason it couldn't run a Netflix client. Of course.
- [93:40]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, but this is the thing like so whether it's Windows as that evolves or Linux in this case, like yeah, you can run the apps, you can bring up a terminal, you can run APT get and you can do all that stuff, but I think most people are going to just run the stuff. They have these big Steam collections. Steam has spent the past several years making those games pretty much all work on Linux.
- [94:03]
Richard Campbell
And we'll see and by that context if this is all running Linux, maybe this is enough performance to get good results. They will see. We'll see what game, you know, let's go fire up a crisis, fire up a cyberpunk. Like let's put it to the wall and see how it does.
- [94:21]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I think it's probably going to be fine. I got to try to figure out, I got to figure out like Call of Duty on Linux. I don't really. Well actually I'm not sure you can.
- [94:31]
Richard Campbell
You know the great thing if you buy one of the Gabe Cube is you don't have to figure it out. You just click on it.
- [94:36]
Paul Thurrott
Nice.
- [94:36]
Leo Laporte
Gabe Cube.
- [94:39]
Richard Campbell
It's a Gabe Cube for me from an on. That's the best name ever. I love it.
- [94:43]
Paul Thurrott
With a crowbar, I'll be like the guy in Half Life 2. Just nothing.
- [94:49]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, the Gabe Cube.
- [94:53]
Leo Laporte
Love it.
- [94:54]
Paul Thurrott
Okay. All right. So that happened. That just came out of the blue for me. So I didn't see that coming. Backbone today announced a new version. Well, just a new kind of a color scheme for the Backbone Pro. This is that. That phone controller that I reviewed probably three, four months ago. So now there's a version that's the Xbox Edition. So it's got the OG Xbox. Got a see through glass. Well, it's plastic, but the green effect. So it's basically the same thing. But this one, this control is kind of unique because you can connect it directly with the phone, obviously, clip it in. You can connect it with a cable, like a USB cable. Uses a hardwired controller, but it also works wirelessly. So it's. The compatibility is super broad because it works not just with phones, but, you know, tablets, consoles, PCs, et cetera, et cetera. So if you like the Xbox esthetic, you have that option now and then, I guess. Apparently it is the, what is it, 20 something or 30th anniversary or whatever it is of fall. It could be that many years.
- [95:57]
Leo Laporte
But.
- [95:58]
Paul Thurrott
But Fallout 4, they just released a new anniversary edition, I guess ahead of the second season of the TV show. Right. Because that's coming soon on Amazon prime and it has some additional stuff. But the big one is if you bought this game on say the Xbox, you now have it on PC too.
- [96:17]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [96:17]
Richard Campbell
Nice.
- [96:18]
Paul Thurrott
And it has Crossplay, so you can do the Xbox play anywhere stuff where you play part of the game on the console, play part of it on the PC, it's the same game, it's. Etc.
- [96:25]
Richard Campbell
And this is the Boston edition to Fallout. Right. Three was the DC. Yeah, three was DC. New Vegas is Vegas. Four is Northeast. Yeah, it's Boston.
- [96:36]
Paul Thurrott
Okay.
- [96:37]
Richard Campbell
And then 76 is the one nobody wants to talk about because. Ew.
- [96:42]
Paul Thurrott
Yes. Microsoft recently announced Halo. Sorry, I must say. Combat Reloaded. Com. What's it called? Campaign Reloaded. Right.
- [96:56]
Richard Campbell
Campaign Evolved.
- [96:57]
Paul Thurrott
Evolved, whatever the name of it is. I don't know. It's the og. I know the names. I'm too old for this, for these very similar names. But anyway, it's the original Halo single player campaign, only it's going to be on PlayStation 5. That was the big story. But it's going to be on everywhere. So this is the 4K, you know, all that stuff. So that's cool. But as you would expect, they're switching to the Unreal Engine, latest version of that. I think it's the latest version of the Unreal Engine previously, well, Bungie literally, I mean Halo, dating back to Bungie, they had their own rendering engine. And so one of the problems the Halo team always had was bringing in talent because they would waste weeks or even months just learning the new to them rendering system.
- [97:47]
Richard Campbell
So what happens if you're slow on shipping too is that suddenly a new rendering engine comes out. It's like, do we bump back another year and shift to this new engine?
- [97:55]
Paul Thurrott
This is like the Daikatana thing where they were working on the Quake one engine and then Quake two came out and they were like, oh, I gotta start over again, you know. So look, they switched and I know that was controversial for some people, but honestly it was the right thing to do because now you. No problem. Everyone know, everyone in this space knows that engine. So it's great. The stuff we've seen from that game looks awesome. And there's other Halo stuff happening. There's this kind of a rumor of a Halo online service where it's just Halo multiplayer, but all the maps, all the thing I always wanted for Call of Duty. And I'm sure other games like actual new games. But not surprisingly, this kind of leaves Halo infinite in the lurch. Right. So this is the last game made on the old system. Didn't really have the uptick that anybody wanted. Part of the problem, of course at lunch, day and day on game pass. So it's like they don't get that big boom revenue bump on the first month like they used to when they would sell the game. And you know, Microsoft started off pretty good. Like they, they were doing these major updates regularly. Like they've supported a lot of games like that, like Sea of Thieves, Gears, the latest Gears of War or whatever version we're on now, etc. But you know, they announced, I think it was sometime last year. Like, yeah, we're not doing this anymore. You know, we're going to have smaller updates and then the last of those just came out. So they were basically. Obviously we're focusing on the new thing. It's like not, we're not giving up on it. Like we know there are people play it and you know, obviously people like in Forge making maps or whatever, people are doing, but you know, it's just Halo needs a fresh start. So I hope they can make that happen. And then the biggest game ever in the gaming industry, Grand Theft Auto or game series, maybe even bigger than call.
- [99:40]
Richard Campbell
Of duty, GA5 is a monster, man. Just a monster of a game.
- [99:45]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I can't say I've ever played it other than kind of casually just jumped in to look at it and see what it was like. But I, I, yeah, it's not my thing.
- [99:54]
Richard Campbell
Committing crimes. You got a problem with that?
- [99:58]
Paul Thurrott
No, but I, I, no, I don't know how to explain it. Maybe it's the third person thing. I know. But Grand Theft Auto 6 is the most eagerly awaited game maybe of all time and it's now been delayed twice. So it was originally supposed to come out, I believe this holiday season.
- [100:16]
Richard Campbell
No, it was originally 2025. Yeah, yeah.
- [100:19]
Paul Thurrott
So then they delayed it to May. Yeah. Now they delayed, delayed it again to next November.
- [100:24]
Richard Campbell
So fully a year from now. That is a long time.
- [100:29]
Paul Thurrott
And that worked out great for Halo Infinite, didn't it? Which is the reference that I made earlier to Leo, which was that we watched that event where they showed off Halo Infinite gameplay for the first time and it was like, what is this thing? I will never forget my reaction, which was as it went into the second or third minute and it was just the same looking thing as ever. And I was like, they must be doing a, they're doing like a Wizard of Oz thing, right? It's going to go from black and white to color. Like it's going to go from this crappy looking 20 year old engine to 4k wonderfulness or whatever. And it never did, you know. And there was a lot of criticism of some of the characters that were in the game that you could see, you know, the guy in the ship and then the, I guess he was a brute or whatever that looked like a eight bit drawing that a child would make and hang on a refrigerator. But, but they ended up delaying that game for a year. Right. And then the thing that.
- [101:28]
Richard Campbell
Did they actually ship after a year? Because no, I don't know anybody who can bump out a year and actually nail that by bumping out of a year. Means you don't know when they did.
- [101:36]
Paul Thurrott
Ship something called Halo Infinite in a year, but it didn't have a bunch of the stuff that people were expecting like co op, single player. And Forge was not there in the beginning and over time they added most of it. But they also canceled a couple things. They originally said they were going to do you know, didn't get off to a good start is all I'm saying. I'm sure this will be better than this. The other big comparison here, of course, is Duke Nukem Forever.
- [101:59]
Richard Campbell
Nah, it's not the ultimate.
- [102:00]
Paul Thurrott
I know, I know it's not. We're not, we're not quite there yet.
- [102:03]
Richard Campbell
We're not in the decade league here. Come on.
- [102:06]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, but I mean, this is, you know, at the time.
- [102:09]
Richard Campbell
Next they're going to say Half Life three and then what are we going to talk about? Half Life 2 Part 3.
- [102:15]
Paul Thurrott
I might give anything for Half Life 3 right now. When we first learned that Duke Nukem Forever was coming, Duke Nukem 3D was still a big game. It was one of the biggest games ever at the time. And then several years went by and it was like, whatever, that's a problem. That can be a big problem. I do feel like if Valve and I think they might. There's a lot of rumors about this, but if they ever did come up with a Halo, Sorry, A Half Life 3 right now, they could be pretty good. So we'll see. So I mentioned we flew to OAXAC on Friday. Two hour delay, by the way. So I was orchestrating this call with these guys from UNO platform and I literally got to the hotel, opened the laptop and I made it with a minute to spare. When we flew home from Oaxaca, two and a half hour delay. Lost the whole day. It was horrible. And all I could think was like, I just need to. I need to zone out when we get home. I told my wife, I'm like, you're gonna. I'm gonna disappear for three hours. So I'm gonna close the door, I'm gonna lay on the bed, I'm gonna play Call of Duty. I'm like, I just need to kill something right now. And I got home here and I laid on the bed and I opened up this thing to play Call of Duty on and there was a 180 giga update.
- [103:40]
Richard Campbell
And there you are with your 56k modem saying, how is this going to happen?
- [103:43]
Leo Laporte
Oh.
- [103:44]
Paul Thurrott
So two hours later I played two games of Call of Duty and then we went out to dinner. But leaving that aside. So here's the problem. I. It was pretty obvious what's happening here, right? So I think it's tomorrow. Yeah, Thursday, Call of Duty Black Ops 7 is coming out. So the way Call of Duty has, I don't want to say evolved, but devolved or changed or whatever, is that there's like basically A launcher. And you can go into different games. So today those games are Black Ops 6 and Warzone, which is their, you know, the battle royale thing, but also the. If you have them installed, the Modern Warfare games that, you know, the recent ones, because these things are all somewhat of the same generation or something. Something. But they've added Black Ops 7 to this menu. So if you played it during the beta, you could go into the Call of Duty game and then select 7, play the 3 or 4 levels they offered at the time. And that was fun. Actually, it was terrible. But whatever, you could do it. And as of tomorrow, I guess we're going to be able to do it again. Anyway, this thing took. So I literally connected it to a Ethernet cable to speed it up. Took over two hours on this stupid little.
- [104:54]
Richard Campbell
Anyway.
- [104:55]
Paul Thurrott
180 gigabytes, guys. Come on. Like, what is that?
- [105:00]
Richard Campbell
And of course, it really makes you want to kill something.
- [105:03]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, yeah. I was a little frantic by the time this thing finally. By the way, if you're listening to this or watching and you play Call of Duty on a PC and you know this, you know, when you install a big update. Now, a big update typically is more like 12 gigabytes or, you know, maybe 30 gigabytes. You get into the game and it has to render the shaders. So you don't. You could start a multiplayer game, but you really want to wait for that to happen. So the whole time this is going, I'm watching it. I'm like, this is never going to finish. I'm thinking to myself, hours are going to go by, I'm going to start this thing, and it's going to be like, yeah, hold on a second. We got to do the shaders again. And it's like, is there a. Is there a better system somewhere? I mean, than this?
- [105:48]
Richard Campbell
Like, this is a better solution to this.
- [105:50]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. So this morning I had an hour to kill because I. Well, I'm going to talk about it in the back of the book, but the thing I'm going to talk about is a lot of downtime because it just was taking. So I had like an hour, probably. I'm like, all right, well, this thing is doing its thing. I've kind of written what I want to write about it. Let's play a game, you know. No, I had, like a 6.7 gig update to go through again. This time it didn't run to the shaders. So that's good. But, you know, it didn't take that long, actually. But it's like. Like, you start the game, it's like, yeah, no, you can't start it. Gotta install the update. Like, so if you're wondering what the point of an Xbox console is, I'm not saying it's only this, but it is kind of only this because this would have installed overnight for me on a console. Why we can't figure this out on a PC is unclear to me, but I've never figured out a way to make that work. It's trying to.
- [106:40]
Richard Campbell
Funny part is like, you never notice your browser being updated, but it's updated all the time.
- [106:44]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. Or if it. Well, I mean, I notice notion updating all the time, but I'll tell you, it reboots and it's done. Like, it's pretty quick.
- [106:51]
Richard Campbell
You know how I know Edge is updated? Because Edge says, let me show you what's new. And I'm like, hello? No, and move on. Right?
- [106:57]
Paul Thurrott
But otherwise, what the frick is a 180 gig? What the. What? Like, what is that? That's crazy. Anyway. All right, that was just really irritating.
- [107:05]
Leo Laporte
That's how big games used to be.
- [107:07]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, it's so. It is like, I didn't. I just reinstalled the damn thing. My wife, I said something to her about it. She goes, I mean, she goes, well, it's better now, right? I'm like, no, it's the same game. I waited to play the same game. How. How is it not? I. I don't know. It's crazy. It's crazy to me. I never agreed to preload like Call of duty Black Ops 7. I mean, I would have, but like, I, I just wanted to play the, the game you have now, the same game. Anyway, it was terrible.
- [107:40]
Richard Campbell
It's not your game.
- [107:42]
Paul Thurrott
Okay. And then one of the primary drivers of this game, Sony, just did their earnings announcement and as part of it, they, I think they sold, yeah, 3.9 million PlayStation 5s in the most recent quarter. Small bump from the year ago quarter. You know, this thing has obviously peaked and is on the way down, but they've now sold 84 million PlayStation 5. There's three console versions, right? The OG, the Slim, the, you know, the one without the drive, the one with the drive, you know that. The pro. Yeah, they've been. Yeah, they're going good with it. And. But this is the thing, you know, when you look at, like when you look at Sony and this part of their business, like the, the game and network services business, which is PlayStation, right? Is the biggest business they have. You know, it's. The numbers are in yen. So I can't tell you what they are, but like, like just Sony overall, like profit, operating profit, 2.8 billion in US dollars and then 20 billion in revenue. So the part that is games is about a third of that, I guess, or maybe a little more than a third or a little less than a third, maybe a quarter to a third. You know, this is a good size for this business. But the big thing, to me, they're doing great. Like obviously they plant. They've already kind of given us a little peek at what they're thinking for what will be called PlayStation 6. I'm sure it sold more than every Xbox ever made. Like this one, which by the way, at 87.4 million units I think. Is that what I said it was? Yeah. If I didn't say it, I'm sorry. 84 million units. The PlayStation 3 which just barely eked out a win over the Xbox 360. From a unit sales perspective, that's 87.4 million units. So they're going to surpass that now. They're never going to surpass the original, which is 102 million units. They're never going to surpass the PlayStation 2, which is the big one for them, 160 million units. And they're not going to surpass the PlayStation 4 which was 117, which is amazing. Right. But this thing's doing really well. They have a pretty consistent record of success is how I would say this.
- [109:56]
Richard Campbell
Eddie. 84 million of anything is a lot. Except maybe like sand, but sand, right.
- [110:03]
Paul Thurrott
Or a smartphone app or some like a Friday app or something. Yeah, no, I mean it's really kind of impressive. And then of course their game, the game, the selling of software is going great. 72% of the games they sell are digital now. They've roughly 120 million monthly active users on PlayStation Network, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, it's going gangbusters. And as an Xbox fan we can relate. Okay. And then separately from their earnings, Sony also announced this kind of came out of a blue, but actually the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. A 27 inch gaming monitor which is coming out in the US and Japan early next year. It's 2560 by 1440. So 1440p as we would call that 240hz refresh rate, HDR, VR, variable refresh rate support. It has a little hook on it for the PlayStation controller. But this is a good example of the type of thing Sony should be doing because Sony is this kind of conglomerate that does other things and one of the many other things they do is consumer electronics like TVs, which by the way, they're pretty good at. And so having a PlayStation gaming display to me is like. Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.
- [111:19]
Richard Campbell
I think Bang and Olson kind of, you know, all up thing. You know, if you love the PlayStation, you should have the Pro with the.
- [111:26]
Paul Thurrott
Screen and that and the, it's vertical integration as well.
- [111:29]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. Sell as many, sell as many things to the same customer.
- [111:33]
Paul Thurrott
It's going to be 325, 350 somewhere in there.
- [111:36]
Richard Campbell
And anybody who could afford the Pro would probably buy the screen. I mean the real, only real problem screen is only a 27. Right.
- [111:41]
Paul Thurrott
I was just going to say the same thing. Maybe a 32 as well. Should be a 30. I guess at that point maybe you just get this, you know, you just use a smart TV or whatever, but something. And I believe Sony makes one of those too. But anyway, it is a fun little hook for the thing. So that's the thing that to me is what sells it. Apple would sell the hook for like $350. But they're gonna.
- [112:00]
Leo Laporte
Did you see.
- [112:02]
Paul Thurrott
Yes. The sock things that were gonna say the $300.
- [112:05]
Leo Laporte
What is. It's more than. It's a couple hundred bucks.
- [112:07]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, I think it's 2.2iphone sock. An iPhone sock.
- [112:11]
Richard Campbell
Everybody needs an iPhone sock.
- [112:12]
Paul Thurrott
See, I read that as iPhone suck. And I was like, yeah, no, I get it.
- [112:16]
Richard Campbell
But yeah, I don't know who that.
- [112:18]
Leo Laporte
What that. You know what?
- [112:20]
Paul Thurrott
Apple, first of all, they know their audience, right. This is some people who have too much money on their hands and too much time and they're just looking at an excuse to break out the credit card and help Apple because, you know, they're struggling.
- [112:33]
Richard Campbell
Apple has not bought any Apple stuff lately. What can I buy a sock?
- [112:37]
Paul Thurrott
A kind of sock. Does it come in different colors? It does, yeah, it does that.
- [112:43]
Richard Campbell
I need more than one.
- [112:44]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, it's a cross body sock.
- [112:47]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, well, there you go. Crossbody is everything these days. The, the socks a good idea because if a thief grabs it, it will probably like stretch out to like 20ft and then when it comes back, you'll get hit in the face by the phone.
- [112:57]
Leo Laporte
I'm going to ask my mom because I bet you she could knit me one of these for less than a couple hundred bucks.
- [113:02]
Paul Thurrott
You think so? Pretty sure. Don't let her know that she could charge those numbers because.
- [113:06]
Leo Laporte
Because you should have looked for this in the Oaxaca. I Bet there's some crafts people right now.
- [113:11]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, God, there definitely are.
- [113:13]
Leo Laporte
Making the iPhone crossbody. Apparently they. It will be sold in France, which explains a lot. China, Italy, Japan, Singapore, South Korea and the UK and the US But I think they expect it to sell mostly in France. It doesn't it look like something a French.
- [113:30]
Paul Thurrott
Why would you expect it to sell? Okay, first of all, it looks like a pair of like women's leggings to start with. This.
- [113:35]
Richard Campbell
And a mankini in your set.
- [113:37]
Leo Laporte
It looks like a mankini for your phone.
- [113:41]
Paul Thurrott
Do you have one that has more of an Audi? This is a little too. I don't know what the word is I'm looking for.
- [113:47]
Leo Laporte
It is designed by Miyake, I guess that's. Sure, sure. He's the guy who did Steve Jobs. Black turtlenecks.
- [113:54]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. And those were distinctive.
- [113:58]
Leo Laporte
One of a kind. Oh, look, you don't have to put it on your body. You could put it on your purse.
- [114:02]
Paul Thurrott
Yep. Yeah. That way you lose everything in one swipe. Smart.
- [114:06]
Leo Laporte
Here's one that works as a bib.
- [114:08]
Paul Thurrott
In case I saw an ad for it was an iPhone wallet. You know, you attach them on the back of the phone with your magsafe thing. Yeah. And the guy, he's like, yeah, he's like, look how convenient this is. And he goes up to the pump at the gas station. He pulls the card out of the back of the wallet, he puts it up to the machine. I'm like, your phone could do that. Like, why are you putting your actual credit card and the phone. Phone that has your credit cards in it in the same place? You know, it's like, what are you doing?
- [114:36]
Leo Laporte
Anyway, all right, I believe we are prepared for the back of the book. If you have no objections, I would like to tell us about our sponsor. And then you will get some wonderful content designed specifically for you in mind from Paul Thorat and Richard Campbell, including the tip of the week, the app of the week, the run is radio pick of the week, and a delicious iPhone sock style whiskey.
- [115:06]
Paul Thurrott
Wait, actually, could you put a bottle of whiskey inside the iPhone Sock.
- [115:10]
Richard Campbell
Nice.
- [115:10]
Leo Laporte
You could.
- [115:11]
Paul Thurrott
I bet you could.
- [115:13]
Leo Laporte
It's one sock fits all.
- [115:16]
Richard Campbell
It's funny because this particular bottle has bro. A kind of brocade on it too.
- [115:20]
Leo Laporte
I thought maybe there was a tie.
- [115:22]
Richard Campbell
In, but I maybe the tie in.
- [115:24]
Leo Laporte
Let me first tell you about our sponsor. A company I love and use and have used for years. Zapier. Zapier allows me to get my work done. I've been using Zapier Workflows at Twit since, you know, for, I don't know, five years, ten years, long time. One of my favorite workflows is something I use every single day, but I don't even think about it. I have to think about Zapier. When I bookmark a story for a show, Zapier automatically takes it sees there's a new bookmark, it automatically takes it because it, by the way, Zapier has integrations for thousands of the apps and SaaS apps and desktop apps that phone apps that you use. So it's automatic. It automatically sees that I've bookmarked it in Raindrop IO, it then posts it as a toot on our Mastodon instance and also at the same time crafts a single line in a Google spreadsheet just in the right format so that our producers can then take that and paste that into the rundown. I mean, it's just wonderful. But now here's the coolest thing. Zapier has added AI. So now all these workflows I have, you know, I have Zapier workflows to make my hue lights change color when the sun sets. That kind of, I mean, for everything, all of them can use AI. Zapier is integrated AI. One of the things, you know, I notice with AI is that everybody says I want to use it, but, but then they sit down at the prompt and know, now what? You know, let's, let's make it more efficient at work by using AI in a way that makes sense. Zapier is how you break the AI hype cycle and put AI to work across your company. You can actually deliver on your AI strategy now, not just talk about it. This is the, probably the best use of AI, taking a workflow you've already got and introducing AI. So for instance, and by the way, they support ChatGPT, Claude, all the AI models you might want to use. So I think I would use Claude for this. So I can add, take the existing workflow and just in Zapier makes it really easy to add one more step and in the middle add a step saying, oh, and take that story that I just bookmarked and run it through Claude to get me a bullet pointed synopsis, you know, 4, 4 line synopsis of the story that I can also put in the spreadsheet or maybe make a briefing book for me and for our hosts. I mean, the sky's the limit. The sky's the limit. And you can add it to, you know, workflows you already use or create all new workflows. And as always with Zapier, they've lots of examples. So you're never kind of wondering what to do. You can put AI wherever you need it. AI powered workflows, an autonomous agent, a customer chatbot or something like what I do. In fact, I just thought of something because when we add a guest to our worksheet, we have a wonderful Claude skill that I could use to automatically make a briefing book. Oh man. On this guess I just. Every time I talk about Zapier, I think about another great way I can use AI. Zapier is for everyone. You don't have to be a coder, you don't have to be a tech expert. Teams have already used Zapier to automate over 300 million AI tasks. Puts AI into your business in a way that just makes sense. Join the millions of businesses transforming how they work with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.comwindows that's Z A P I E R.comWindows well I, I have always loved Zapier. I've always used Zapier and now they're even better. Zapier.comwindows thank you Zapier, for all you do for all of our shows. Now to Paul Thurot, the back of the book and your tip of the week.
- [119:09]
Paul Thurrott
Mr. T. Yeah, I think a couple weeks ago probably I was talking about the Cory Doctorow book and certification. Great book. A lot of good examples. Some of them are like cherry picking is pretty easy. But the one thing that is a valid criticism of the book is that it's in the subtitle too. He doesn't actually explain what we can do as individuals to work sort of against insuredification. So it occurred to me that this is something that I just kind of do naturally. I mean, I was thinking back to when we used to write the windows secrets books 20 plus years ago, whatever. Or if you can go back even further, when it was just Brian living Livingston and he was writing these books in the 1990s, you would uncover things or someone would for you or whatever it was, but you'd uncover secrets about Windows or whatever, put them in a book, people could find that out. And later we would do this on the web, whatever. But I feel like most of the tip type stuff that we have today is like, how do we just make Windows not stink anymore? How do we get rid of the things that make it terrible? Dave Plummer did a video, very short one about does Windows suck? And he's like, yeah, it does in some ways, but it's mostly for people like us, like people who are experts or pro users, whatever you want to call us. And it's because they're designing this thing for people. And it's like, could I just have a switch that turns off all the nagging and nonsense and whatever? And the answer is no. But there are third parties that do that. This is something As I work on the next version of the book, I distinctly remember it was Windows 10, but I had to add a chapter to where it's like you're personalizing. It's like here you turn off all the stuff that's annoying. And then sometime in the Windows 11 timeframe I was like, well, there's this Edge chapter. Here's how you turn off all the stuff that's annoying. It's kind of turned into that. That's the job. On that note, I think it's been roughly six weeks now. I've been. I had used Tiny 11 Builder, which is a PowerShell script, to install a stupid, clean, minimalist version of Windows 11. It doesn't have OneDrive, doesn't have Edge. Because of the timing of it, I was able to install that month's Patch Tuesday update after the fact, the recent preview update from a couple weeks ago and then this past, well, yesterday, the November Patch Tuesday, and of course every time I'm looking for that thing where like oh look, Edge is back or they've turned on the nags again or whatever and it hasn't happened yet. And this will probably be it for me with this laptop because we're going home at the end of next week but since then, and actually this morning, and this was the thing I was talking about where a lot of downtime because this script takes 20 plus minutes to run and then the install process for Windows takes 20 plus minutes to run because now it has that feature update thing it does right in the middle of the of the out of box experience. But I customized the script to kind of lighten up on some of the stuff it gets rid of because there's some stuff in Windows I actually do use and I found myself going to reinstall those things later like Clipchamp and Paint and Terminal and I don't remember the full list, but I'll be writing that up soon. So I was working on that article today, but I've now put a tiny 11 builder based Windows 11 installation on a second computer, which I'm actually not going to bring home with me. So I'll have to do this again when I get home. But that's okay. This is good practice.
- [122:44]
Richard Campbell
It just takes more practice is always better.
- [122:46]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah, but the big question here is, with anything, like, if you use something after the fact where it's like Declutter Windows or whatever the term you want to use is, will Microsoft silently flip a switch at some point and turn this stuff back on? And that's a concern because they update this thing, you know, all the time. And so far, so good. Like, I. No promises, but I will say if your goal is like, I don't want this thing nagging me. I don't want suggestions, I don't want recommendations. I don't want it sending telemetry home to Microsoft. I don't want Edge and I don't want to click on. Well, you have to use another utility. But I don't want to click on widgets. If have it on and a story and have it launch or Edge or want to launch Edge. Like, I want to use my browser like a normal person. You know, this stuff is out there. So I will still have all the stuff I've had before in the previous couple of books, but I think this kind of. I think this is going to be like a new little push. This is like the D in certification of Windows. I don't know what to call it. I'm not going to call it that in the book, but it's like there are different levels. How clean do you want it? You want it really clean? Because we can make it really clean. It's a good tool. It's free, obviously. It's PowerShell scripts. You can read it, you can. You can look at it. So you can edit it. Right. Which is what I've been doing. So I think the next step after that is. That's just a list of apps it doesn't install, but there's also other settings that it makes or settings changes. And, you know, that gets into the weeds a little bit because you have to really know what you're doing. But I'm going to play with that too, because I get plenty of free time and it's all good. No problem, you know.
- [124:19]
Richard Campbell
So, anyway, awesome.
- [124:20]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah.
- [124:21]
Leo Laporte
Very nice. How about an app? You got an app for us?
- [124:24]
Paul Thurrott
That's the app. I'm sorry.
- [124:25]
Leo Laporte
Oh, that is the app.
- [124:26]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. Sorry. I combined them.
- [124:28]
Richard Campbell
The two got to go together. Yeah.
- [124:29]
Paul Thurrott
Tiny. That makes sense.
- [124:32]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. It's a good thing to solve. Well, if that's the case, then I think it must be time for Richard and Run as radio.
- [124:40]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. Episode 1010 or in binary that's 10.
- [124:47]
Leo Laporte
Well, that's confusing.
- [124:48]
Richard Campbell
There you go. That's not confusing at all. This is Azure Resiliency with Chris Ayers. Chris works for Microsoft specifically on the resiliency of Azure itself. So he's usually not interacting with customers so much as he's improving how Azure runs. But his advice about what Azure does to keep making things more reliable and how you can configure to build out is really interesting because he fully goes into that spectrum of you need to sit down and do a call cost benefit analysis because you can create something that's incredibly resilient. But at what price? A price you're going to pay every day in maintenance and configuration and services versus what the cost of an actual outage would be. So we ended up with this, you know, back and forth because I've gone through this back in the days of building out in data centers where it's like how much does a redundant data center cost? You know, how much does it cost to be down? You know, we used to do the math for down for a day, down for two weeks, down for three months. Because I've literally had a data center burn to the ground and let me tell you, rebuilding from that. First off, make sure your, your disaster recovery plans not in the building.
- [125:55]
Leo Laporte
Don't have it burned down.
- [125:57]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, that's not good. Oh, and the backup tapes were sitting on top of the machine that burned.
- [126:02]
Leo Laporte
No.
- [126:03]
Richard Campbell
Oh yeah. So you know, they can get dramatic. And so what was fun going through that process recognizing yeah, you can keep going up this path but the price goes up, up and the maintenance goes up. Like it's not just paying for services. Even when you deal in cloud, it's work you have to do on a routine basis as an administrator. So he gave us a huge raft of links especially talking about what they call the Azure well architected framework. It's just a great starting point for. So you want to think about building a reliable app and I've been pitching this to administrators because development is in such a rush these days. They're really not thinking about these things very often and they'll get deployed on a single instance. And you've got some reliability issues there like you'll have regular outages in that configuration just because the nature of the cloud. So pushing back on these frameworks that it's just not you complaining but are actually this is what Microsoft recommends. Here's how we could do this. Here's where the automation lives. Here's the telemetry parts so that you can get A full feedback loop, understanding where you're at. So I could have called this a DevOps, but show really, because in the essence, that's what DevOps is about. But it was about building really resilient systems in Azure. And Chris knows his stuff. I included even one of his talks because he. He knows it's so cold and his explanations are lovely.
- [127:20]
Leo Laporte
Nice, nice, nice. Okay. Rennesradio.com kids, you know where to go now. I don't know about you, but I need a brocaded bottle of delicious.
- [127:34]
Richard Campbell
This is a. This is another one from that party in Norway.
- [127:38]
Leo Laporte
What a party that was.
- [127:39]
Richard Campbell
It was quite a party. This is the Kyoto whiskey, the Kura obi, otherwise known as the black belt. And I had. I.
- [127:48]
Leo Laporte
It actually has an obi on it.
- [127:50]
Richard Campbell
Yes. It's literally wrapped in an obi and it is from Kyoto. So I did not know going into this how unusual this whiskey was, and not necessarily in a good way. Oh.
- [128:03]
Leo Laporte
So.
- [128:03]
Richard Campbell
But it's one of those things where I don't want to keep talking about weird whiskeys all the time. I like to make. Make stuff this much more approachable. This turns out to not be that expensive. But as I dug into it, the story is insane. So starting out, let's talk a little about by Kyoto, because Kyoto is an amazing place. This is in the southern portion of Honshu island, which is the largest of the Japanese islands, sitting in a valley in the Yamashiro Basin, the eastern part of the Tamba highlands. And it's surrounded on three sides by mountains. Higashiyami, Kitayami and Nishiyami, which sounds very impressive to translate them. And they're the east, north and west mountains. So it's Japan. So very hot summers, very cool winters. This is called humid subtropical. So it's kind of challenging for making whiskey, although a little more contained there. And this is old school inhabited land. They have evidence going back to the Paleo period. Humans have been there a long, long time. Although we don't get real documentation about humans living there until they start talking about Shinto temple somewhere around. Around 600 AD by 794, at the beginning of the Hainan period, the Imperial court moves to Kyoto and was the capital of Japan for a thousand years.
- [129:18]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, it's visiting Kyoto and it's amazing Imperial palace and oh my God, it.
- [129:23]
Richard Campbell
Doesn'T move to Tokyo until 1867 during the Meiji renovation. And of course, famously, Kyoto was never bombed in World War II because Harry.
- [129:32]
Leo Laporte
Stimson, the Secretary of War, took it off. The list, the military wanted to bomb it.
- [129:36]
Richard Campbell
Well, they. They had a set of cities they didn't bomb because if they were going to try the atomic bomb, they wanted an unbomb city to test on it. So it was actually on the atomic bomb list.
- [129:46]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [129:46]
Richard Campbell
That's why they avoided it. And the apocryphal story is that Stimson had honeymoon there and that. That turns out not to be true. But he had visited it multiple times in the 1920s and he understood its cultural. And that's what his argument was, right? That that was the thousand year capital. There was so many things there that it would actually galvanize the Japanese because they were still concerned that they would have to invade the Japanese islands.
- [130:09]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [130:10]
Richard Campbell
That was his argument. And I mean he's not wrong. There are 17 UNESCO World Heritage sites in Kyoto. I have tried to visit them all.
- [130:20]
Leo Laporte
You can't.
- [130:21]
Richard Campbell
You can't do more than two a day. It's just impossible. And even then you're racing to do two a day. So it's like 10 days, eight, nine days to even try and you'll be exhausted.
- [130:32]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [130:33]
Richard Campbell
So yeah, Kyoto is an extraordinary place. And as the Kyoto distillery will tell you, they're the first whiskey distillery in Kyoto. Except that's a lie. Oh, I mean, right away when I first started reading about this bottle, this is first distillery Kyoto. Wait, the original Yamazaki distillery was like right on the border of Kyoto. Like, are you kidding? And in fact, then I start looking up Kyoto Distillery and I find another Kyoto distillery, although admittedly focused on gin. So I'm like, oh, is this the same distillery? Because then I go, look again. It's like, well, they also make gin, but the bottles are different. No, no, it's different than. The whole thing is kind of mysterious. So this distillery we now call the Kyoto Miyako Distillery, only founded in 2020, so it's pretty new.
- [131:21]
Leo Laporte
The oldest five by any stretch of the imagination.
- [131:24]
Richard Campbell
No, you know, it's. This whole thing is so strange.
- [131:26]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [131:27]
Richard Campbell
And let's you. We've talked about Japanese whiskey before and Yamazaki really Suntory and Nike being sort of the originals from those for those two splitting up and so forth. So I'm just trying to sort it out because of course there's a lot of stuff in Japanese which doesn't translate well. And I run across this site which I've read before called Nomacation jp as in communication, but Nomacation. And this is a site dedicated to whiskey from Japan and cocktails and news around that and it's run by a pseudonym, Whiskey Richard, which I do not understand why he picked his name. Not because I'm a famous Richard and Whiskey at all. Like, there's a guy named Richard Patterson, which is literally, like, Obe, worked at Dalmore, one of the best whiskey guys on the planet. So there's a lot of, you know, famous Riches Whiskeys. He's a band called the Whiskey Riches, for crying out loud. And the stupid part is his name's actually Liam McNulty. Okay.
- [132:17]
Leo Laporte
Whiskey Liam would be just as good.
- [132:19]
Richard Campbell
Just fine, I think. It doesn't translate well in Japan. That's what it is. That those are difficult words in Japanese. And so he picked an easier one. Now Liam's done the work. He was concerned about this thing too. And so he really dug in. He looked up domain names, he looked up trademark registrations, so forth. And he found out that actually, the company that owns it is called Kyoto Shuzo, which is a hint, because there is this group called Matsui Shuzo, which owns the Matsui Whiskey Distillery, which is very notorious in Japanese whiskey circles. And so he. Liam's digging. He finds out that, hey, the trademarks are registered through the same company at the same time. They also host the websites for both the Matsui Distillery and the Kyoto distillery on the same website. Then he finds out they're literally using the same Google Analytics code, so the sites, you know, show up in the same registration. Then he found a job listing for Kyoto Miyakayo, which included training at the Matsui distilleries. It was like, this is. Is Matsui who's doing this? And so what's this about? So Matsuzi Shuzo is a very old company. They've been making shoju since 1910, which.
- [133:33]
Leo Laporte
Is what it's like.
- [133:35]
Richard Campbell
This is the Japanese whiskey that we talked about that's made from rice.
- [133:39]
Leo Laporte
Okay.
- [133:39]
Richard Campbell
Right. And it's a legit product all its own. It does. It's not popular outside of Japan, mostly because it's natural alcohol level levels about 30%, and that means it doesn't qualify for a spirit. So it's really hard to import because you need to be over 40 to be a spirit, and it's too high to be anything else.
- [133:55]
Leo Laporte
Not a beer, it's not a spirit. No.
- [133:57]
Richard Campbell
It's lost just because it's unfortunate. Right. But. And shoji is beautiful. Like, if you're in Japan, drink some Shoju, like, you're really. You'll enjoy it. It's lovely.
- [134:05]
Paul Thurrott
So.
- [134:07]
Richard Campbell
And Matsui got into. Into whiskey distilling. Only in 2015. And he built, he had these two distilleries. Well, first he had the Yurikoshi distillery and he started selling distillery, started selling whiskey right away. His first whiskey almost within a year was the Yurakoshi 18. I don't know how you do that, except that maybe you didn't make the whiskey. And if you ever look up a bottle of yurikoshi 18, you know what it looks exactly like A bottle of Yamazaki 18. Same label style, same layout. Like if you don't look carefully, you would not realize these are actually different, different, different whiskeys. And of course, here's the kicker. There's actually no Japanese whiskey in that bottle at all. Oh, right. Because how could there be? He hadn't been open long enough to actually make any whiskey. It's a minimum of three years, it'd be called whiskey. But he's good at buying whiskey. So if you read again, the label very closely, it says. It doesn't say distilled in Japan. It says made in Nippon or made in Japan. Because they're not lying. That would be illegal. Well, what they're doing is they're buying barrels from other locations, mostly Scotland or other distilleries in general, and building things together. In fact, it wasn't in 2017, two years after that Distillery, Distillery opened, that they announced that they bought stills.
- [135:24]
Leo Laporte
My God, they're gonna make some.
- [135:26]
Richard Campbell
Well, and this is the thing is the Japanese whiskey business for a long time had to buy from other sources. It takes time to mature and so forth. That's why they're also often into gin and things where they can sell whiskey right away or sell booze right away, or you can run those stills, you can make gin in a let in a few months. Where you can't be. It takes years to make whiskey. And so it's not that unusual for Japanese whiskey to be a combination of a lot of different things, right? Even Yamazaki or Satori owns Ben Nevis and they put their things in there. But they label that. They do. And we talked about this originally in the Japanese whiskey store where in 2021, a group called the, the JSMLA, or the Japanese Spirits and Liquors Makers association, which they originally formed in 2016, set out a set of rules. Now it was done kind of closed handed, right? This was Suntory and Kirin and Humbo, Shizo and Nikkei and Venture Whiskey that were really involved in writing a specification. And the specs were what you'd expect. Fact that the spirit must be fermented. Distilled and aged in a distillery in Japan. But notice the grain doesn't have to come from Japan because there's such little grain grown in Japan, they have to import that it must contain malted grain, but it can also contain other grains. It has to use Japanese water, has to be three years in wooden cast, no bigger than 700 liters, but they don't specify oak. You can use what you want. No distilled, no higher than 95, can't go below 40 bottled in Japan. And if it breaks the rules, you can't call it Japanese whiskey, but you could call it world whiskey. And also if you're not compliant, if you're not qualified Japanese whiskey, you cannot use a Japanese proper noun like a city name. You cannot use Japanese flags, any of those things. That's the rules. Now that's not like they're laws. These are just the rules. And Matsui Shujo is a member of the jslma, right? And so their whiskeys over there are supposed to comply, but the Kyoto Mikayako Distillery is not a member. Now, nominally, because it's owned by the same company, they're supposed to comply with the same rules, but they're not. Now it got his light. The license for that distillery was in 2020, and they have two pot stills right off the bat. But in 2021 they released three whiskeys. A year later, year 2021, all wrapped in what's called shinji ori, which is a. A specifically a Kyoto style of brocade or fabric that they wrap the bottles. It's. The bottles are beautiful. And so there's a red belt, a purple belt and a black belt. So the red belt of the Akiobe is a blend of malt and grain whiskey with no age declaration. And they even say it's for blending. And it says it's supposed to be inexpensive, but it's really not that cheap. On its retail price it was about $70. And then the Murasaki ori, or the purple belt, which is the most expensive of the bunch, was straight malt whiskey, all third party, of course, because they didn't have the time to make any and generally is the most like of the bunch. And it's like almost $200, which is pricey. And then the one that I got to try, which is the kurobe or the black belt, kind of the middle chop Wild, a blend of foreign and domestic whiskies, but done very much in a bourbon style, where they have aged in both virgin oak but then finished in bourbon Casks. So it kind of tasted like a bourbon, like it was not that adventurous. And the retail price from them is about $120, which is pretty steep for what this is. But I found it on total wine for 65 bucks because clearly it's just not selling that well. 46 ABV.
- [139:05]
Leo Laporte
This is.
- [139:06]
Richard Campbell
You know what, the bottle's gorgeous. And I think that's the best thing I can say about is.
- [139:12]
Leo Laporte
Although if you're just going to buy for the bottle, I kind of like the purple belt, but.
- [139:15]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah.
- [139:16]
Richard Campbell
But, you know, it kind of. They want. They often sold as packs of all three. Right. So I think this is the Coyote Kyoto distillery trying to come out big. But they're years away from actually making a product. We get back to you, like, what are you trying for here? Like, what's. What is your experience? I really feel like. And it sounds like most of Japan understands this. Even the rest of the world doesn't. This is a company that's diminishing the quality of Japanese whiskey that when Yamazaki won the gold award back in the day and put Japanese whiskey on the map, a lot of companies have tried to. To ride those coattails. It's worth a lot of money, and hence the illusion bottles and things like that for people who aren't paying close enough attention. But in Japan, they don't buy this stuff because they know it's a lie. That there is good Japanese whiskey. It's just not from these guys.
- [140:08]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah.
- [140:09]
Richard Campbell
Now, look, drink whatever you want. If you like it, you should drink it. But if you're after a bourbon, buy a bourbon for less. And I think you'd have a good experience there too. And I really don't like encouraging people whose business model seem to be deceptive.
- [140:25]
Leo Laporte
So there's no corn in this?
- [140:27]
Paul Thurrott
No.
- [140:27]
Richard Campbell
Corn's pretty rare in Japan. Right. You'd have to import it. And if you're going to do that, import barley.
- [140:32]
Leo Laporte
So it seems like really the reason it tastes like bourbon is because of the barrels.
- [140:36]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. It's basically been aged in a bourbon cask. Right.
- [140:39]
Leo Laporte
And it just really imparted that strong flavor to it. Yeah.
- [140:43]
Richard Campbell
And it really not that strong. I mean, it's quite mild. Yeah. Corn tends to make things very sweet.
- [140:48]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah.
- [140:48]
Richard Campbell
This is more your sort of fruity. It's. Again, none of the grain declarations are on there, so it's hard to know exactly what's in there. But yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. It's a beautiful bottle that landed in this roster of extraordinary whiskeys. And it looked great and it didn't taste bad, but just wasn't batting at the level of the things we were drinking.
- [141:11]
Leo Laporte
Not for the price.
- [141:12]
Richard Campbell
Well, exactly. And. And the fact that it's been so heavily discounted already sort of speaks to. This was a failed play. And, you know, I'm gonna sit on with Liam McNulty here like I prefer my. I prefer my customers to be informed when there's a bad actor in this business that I think is doing harm to the business overall.
- [141:32]
Leo Laporte
Oh, that's too bad.
- [141:33]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. So it was a surprise. This is not the story I thought I'd be telling. And then you start digging in and digging in and you're like, holy cow, look at this.
- [141:40]
Leo Laporte
Look for the ob on ebay. Somebody will have sold the ob and you can just get like, Obviously.
- [141:46]
Richard Campbell
I bet you. I bet you the. At ebay of the empty bottles. If you just like the brocade. I get the bottles.
- [141:50]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, probably. Yeah.
- [141:53]
Richard Campbell
Anyway, that's my ride today. And now, you know, I'm going to be in Australia next week, so there'll probably be an Australian whiskey on the list.
- [141:59]
Leo Laporte
Nice. I look forward to it. Mr. Richard Campbell. He is in New Zealand right now on the dairy farm where the cows are milking any minute now.
- [142:09]
Richard Campbell
Right.
- [142:10]
Leo Laporte
Or is.
- [142:10]
Paul Thurrott
I don't know, are they milking or getting. Getting milked?
- [142:14]
Leo Laporte
They got.
- [142:14]
Richard Campbell
They got milk. They milk about 5am and then again at 2:30 in the afternoon.
- [142:19]
Leo Laporte
That's why I always laugh when they say the farmers wanted daylight saving time. Yeah, because the cows don't know.
- [142:26]
Richard Campbell
No, the cows don't care.
- [142:27]
Leo Laporte
Cows don't care what the clock says.
- [142:29]
Richard Campbell
No.
- [142:30]
Paul Thurrott
Right.
- [142:31]
Leo Laporte
So anyway, so what? Farmers still have to get up at whatever time the cow is ready to get milked.
- [142:38]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. Well, the cows generally, in this farm in particular, the milk. Milkshed is up the hill and the cows don't really want to go up the hill. So you have to go down in your ATV and encourage them to come up. Oh, yeah, just encourage them. It's not really hurting. It's like, come on, girls, let's go.
- [142:52]
Leo Laporte
Some Australian.
- [142:53]
Richard Campbell
Let's go.
- [142:53]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. Nip at their heels.
- [142:55]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, they don't use dogs here anymore.
- [142:57]
Leo Laporte
They don't really.
- [143:00]
Richard Campbell
The cows follow where showy. The gates are open. They know what they're doing. Cows are plenty bright.
- [143:05]
Leo Laporte
They are. Especially if there's food at the other end of the chute.
- [143:09]
Richard Campbell
Well, it's more relief than food. They're actually walking away from the.
- [143:12]
Leo Laporte
Yeah, they're walking.
- [143:13]
Richard Campbell
The food is the food is grass.
- [143:16]
Leo Laporte
Get. Get me out of here. All right, Richard Campbell. Runnersradio.com that's where you'll find Runnersradio and Dotnet Rocks. We'll see you in Australia next week. Paul Thurat. He is at therot.com t h u r o doublegood th u double r o doublegood.com he all. That's where his. His blog is.
- [143:40]
Paul Thurrott
It's not a blog.
- [143:41]
Leo Laporte
His site is. And also all that great content as the premium members get is also there. Become a premium member. Highly encourage it. He also lives his books do@leanpub.com where you get the Field Guide to Windows 11 and Windows Everywhere. You're going home next week or you're going to be in Roman Norte.
- [144:01]
Paul Thurrott
We'll be here for the next show and then we go home. And then next Friday, Thanksgiving. Yeah.
- [144:06]
Leo Laporte
Time to get the turkey. Are you in charge of cooking this year?
- [144:10]
Paul Thurrott
So my wife is always in charge of cooking the Thanksgiving to the tune of when we moved to Pennsylvania the first year we hosted, you know, two sisters and all their families and they were both like, this is way better than anything anyone has ever made. You're doing this every year. Oh, dear. So even though it's like going to be at my sister's house, my wife will be cooking. Yeah.
- [144:29]
Leo Laporte
Will you next week give us some of Stephanie's secrets? Because I am responsible for cooking this year and I want some.
- [144:35]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. I mean, it's pretty straightforward, but it involves a lot of brining. Brining. Yeah.
- [144:40]
Leo Laporte
I think I'm going to dry brine this year.
- [144:42]
Paul Thurrott
Interesting.
- [144:43]
Leo Laporte
I'm going to use the Ken G. Alt Lopez dry brine technique. He puts a little bit of baking soda in it.
- [144:49]
Paul Thurrott
Oh, interesting skin. So we do. We get two turkeys. So one's probably going to be like 20 something. Seven, 28 pounds will be smaller. But the big one we bring Thanksgiving. The next one we cook the next morning because we let everyone just have all leftovers.
- [145:02]
Leo Laporte
Oh, nice. And then you get your own.
- [145:03]
Paul Thurrott
Then we have our own. Yeah.
- [145:05]
Leo Laporte
Yeah. I think everyone should have a personal turkey.
- [145:08]
Paul Thurrott
I am kind of the family turkey mascot or whatever, but that's why I.
- [145:12]
Leo Laporte
Like those Cornish game hens. It's like having your own little turkey.
- [145:16]
Paul Thurrott
It's like a little turkey.
- [145:17]
Richard Campbell
Get a bite of everything.
- [145:18]
Leo Laporte
Right.
- [145:18]
Paul Thurrott
It's like when you get a quail egg and you're like, I would like a Hue Vito.
- [145:24]
Leo Laporte
And then. And does she do what are the sides that she likes?
- [145:27]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah. So I mean, she does all the classics. So it's you know, mashed potatoes. The stuffing is unbelievable. Which. Yes. We put in the bird and, you know, as much of it as we can. And then she makes pies. She makes unbelievable. The other thing, she's, like, completely masters. Like, pie crust. Like, homemade pie crust. So pumpkin and apple pie is. And then, you know, other family members make other stuff, but nice.
- [145:47]
Leo Laporte
They're kind of thinking of, I'm gonna do mashed potatoes, but I'm thinking of doing Amish dinner rolls. And they have one cup of mashed potatoes in them for moisture.
- [145:55]
Richard Campbell
Yeah. Nice.
- [145:56]
Leo Laporte
I thought that might be kind of fun.
- [145:57]
Richard Campbell
I think I mentioned last week's show, my. My aunt had gone out and shot a deer and then retrieved it, because she does that. She was the one who shot the pig, like, last spring. So last night.
- [146:07]
Leo Laporte
Have anger issues.
- [146:08]
Paul Thurrott
She like, the governor of Texas or something. What's going on here?
- [146:11]
Leo Laporte
She's nearly night.
- [146:12]
Paul Thurrott
Whatever.
- [146:13]
Richard Campbell
She's nearly 90. She's a dead shot. And the whole neighborhood knows that when you have a problem with an animal, you call her and she'll take care of it for you.
- [146:20]
Leo Laporte
My God, nearly.
- [146:22]
Paul Thurrott
Unless it's like, the problem is, like, you lost your kitten. Right. You don't want to. You don't want her on that case. No.
- [146:26]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [146:27]
Paul Thurrott
You know, she's like, I found it.
- [146:30]
Richard Campbell
So she. The neighbor called her, saying, hey, there's deer. Deer eating my. My garden. Can you help? And she's like, sure. Pop down. Took one of them, scattered the others, and then she fetched it the next morning because it was a bit too late to go out that far.
- [146:43]
Paul Thurrott
Geez.
- [146:44]
Richard Campbell
Now. So small. She couldn't carry it. So she got help to get it in. And last night, we got the rump roast off of it and had venison stew.
- [146:51]
Leo Laporte
Was it good?
- [146:51]
Richard Campbell
It's delicious.
- [146:52]
Leo Laporte
It's a little gamey maybe, though.
- [146:54]
Paul Thurrott
No, no. That kind of stuff's actually really good. Yeah, We've. I have a friend who hunts, and we. The.
- [146:58]
Richard Campbell
The little.
- [146:59]
Paul Thurrott
Like, the venison stuff is amazing. Like, it's actually really good.
- [147:01]
Richard Campbell
But I know I told you that story last spring where it was a boar that came out of the forest and was harassing animal. He killed an animal?
- [147:10]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah.
- [147:10]
Richard Campbell
And she didn't realize how big it was. Came down with a.22 rim fire.
- [147:14]
Paul Thurrott
No.
- [147:14]
Richard Campbell
Realized how large it was. Shot it once so it looked at her, and then shot it again through the eye to kill it.
- [147:19]
Leo Laporte
Oh, talk about a dead shot. Oh, my God. She's like Annie Oakley.
- [147:23]
Richard Campbell
Yeah.
- [147:24]
Leo Laporte
Holy cow. And then with this. But I will shoot it in the eye. Exactly.
- [147:29]
Richard Campbell
3D eye. Take it down.
- [147:30]
Leo Laporte
Yeah.
- [147:31]
Paul Thurrott
Holy.
- [147:32]
Leo Laporte
Come on.
- [147:33]
Richard Campbell
But for the deer, she had the 222, which is a little hotter round. So it did the job. First shot.
- [147:38]
Leo Laporte
Unbelievable.
- [147:39]
Richard Campbell
Shot through the heart. Dropped it. He. I don't.
- [147:41]
Leo Laporte
That's cruel.
- [147:43]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, well, it's very quick. And it. It doesn't hate the meat, which is what she was really concerned about. It's like I'm shooting at deers because we're eating it. Although I did have some of the boar sausage too, which is outstanding.
- [147:54]
Leo Laporte
The blind boar.
- [147:56]
Richard Campbell
I gotta tell you. Yeah, my. My. My. My aunt is awesome.
- [148:00]
Leo Laporte
She lives there. She lives.
- [148:02]
Richard Campbell
Yeah, she lives next door. Right next on the farm.
- [148:04]
Leo Laporte
Nice.
- [148:05]
Richard Campbell
It's the family farm.
- [148:07]
Leo Laporte
What a life. What a life.
- [148:09]
Paul Thurrott
Yeah.
- [148:11]
Leo Laporte
Let's see. I guess I should mention that this show is made possible not only by our fond sponsors, but to a great degree by our fine listeners via club Club Twit. And I do want to encourage you if you have not joined Club Twitt to. To do so. It is 25 of our operating expenses covered by the club. And that's really a big deal for us. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without your help. It also gives us a chance to, you know, give you ad free versions of the shows. We have the wonderful Club Twit Disco, which is where you can hang out. It's a discord, but I call it the Disco. With other Club Twit members talking about not just the shows, but everything, you know, geeks are interested in. We're getting ready for the advent of code coming up December 1st. We talk about 3D printing, we talk about Elon Musk, everything. It's all in here. Even some of the games we play. So if. Oh, and there's special events too. In fact, speaking of games, we're going to refinish our D D adventure. I Hope you're ready, Mr. Hammerholm. Helm hammer. What is it? Helm Hammer Hold. Paul Thurat's character will join me. I'm Sag Bottom the Cheerful. Our Dungeon master, Micah Sargent, Paris Martineau, Jonathan Bennett from the Untitled Linux show. And Jacob Ward as we complete the horror in the cornfield. Monday, 2pm Pacific. Club members, next time we do this, we're going to invite you to of course, photo time with Chris Marquardt. The end of the week, Friday at 1:00pm he'll look at our balanced submissions. Mike is crafting Corner next week. Oh, we've got some great interviews coming up. The Q and A for Scott Wilkinson is next week. There's a lot of fun stuff that happens in the club and again, it supports what we do. It makes it possible for us to bring you all this great programming. So if you're not a member, do me a favor, join the club. TWIT TV Club twit. We would very much like to have you in the club. Thanks to the club, we were able to stream this show Every. Every Wednesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern. Hi Paul. I don't know what you're doing here, but. But welcome. It's good to see you. The Paul comes every Wednesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern. That's 1900 UTC. We stream it live on YouTube, Twitch, tick tock, X.com, facebook, LinkedIn. Actually, I don't think we do Tick Tock anymore because it's too complicated and Did I say kick X? Anyway, six different platforms. Also in the club. Twit Disco after the Fact. On demand versions of the show available at our website, Twitter, TV ww. There's audio and video there. The video also lives on YouTube. There's a dedicated Windows Weekly channel. A great way to share clips with friends. You know, stuff that you think they'd be interested in, or your boss. And of course, the best way to get any of our shows, including this one, is to subscribe in your favorite podcast player. Leave us a great review. We'd appreciate that. We have links on the website to Pocket, Casts, Overcast, all the. All the big ones, Apple. But you pick the one you like and subscribe. We will see you right here next week, next Wednesday on Windows. Thanks, Paul. Thanks, Richard. See you next time.