Paul Thurat (2:15)

I'm definitely bringing my own, but.

Leo Laporte (2:19)

I.

Richard Campbell (2:20)

Have some particular selections I need to bring as a housewarming.

Leo Laporte (2:23)

Oh, man, I wish, I wish, I wish I could be there. If you just fly out, we could all be in one.

Paul Thurat (2:28)

We do have three bedrooms. I'm just saying it would really be.

Leo Laporte (2:33)

Kind of a frat.

Paul Thurat (2:35)

It's like instead of like a sitcom, like the, like. Cue the Bosom Buddies theme song.

Leo Laporte (2:42)

Come and knock on our door. Oh, no, that's Three's Company. That's a different.

Richard Campbell (2:45)

That's a different one.

Paul Thurat (2:46)

You wouldn't want that around here. It's mostly Danish citizens.

Leo Laporte (2:49)

And I'll be Mr. Roper.

Richard Campbell (2:51)

Yeah, I think. I think Paul is definitely John Ritter.

Paul Thurat (2:55)

So I'm good.

Leo Laporte (2:55)

I think so.

Paul Thurat (2:56)

And that means Suzanne Summers. Clearly.

Paul Thurat (3:01)

We all have a role to play.

Richard Campbell (3:03)

Yep. We all have a role to play. So Week D, the best.

Leo Laporte (3:10)

The best week. The week we all look forward to.

Paul Thurat (3:14)

I have to go back and look at the calendar because. Yeah. So last month was November. Week D was the week of Thanksgiving. There was no update that week. And then the following week, Monday was December 1st, and that's when they decided to ship the Week D update because, you know.

Leo Laporte (3:35)

Take Thanksgiving off in Redmond.

Paul Thurat (3:38)

I.

Paul Thurat (3:40)

Yeah, I would say so. Yeah.

Richard Campbell (3:42)

I know a few not guys who definitely, you know, do have to work Thanksgiving.

Richard Campbell (3:49)

And the not guys don't knock guy.

Leo Laporte (3:51)

Never. Not guys always are working.

Richard Campbell (3:53)

No. Who's got the. Who's got the pager? Like they literally say pager duty.

Paul Thurat (3:59)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (3:59)

Who's got the beeper? Yeah, it's on you, bud. Good luck. Have fun.

Leo Laporte (4:05)

We don't have that in podcasting. You know, it's not. Patriots of podcasting, thank goodness.

Leo Laporte (4:13)

So they did. They. Were they working? It was a week late, so that was because they took some time off, right?

Paul Thurat (4:18)

I assume so, yeah.

Leo Laporte (4:19)

And you say it's a big one.

Paul Thurat (4:21)

It is a big one. And we had seen some hints of this in the Devon beta builds and then the release preview builds, which have been at least two. This is another one of those. 24 and 25H2 are exactly the same kind of deals. Literally, in this case, you get the same update, or you will, assuming you install it. And a preview of the patch Tuesday update we're going to get next week, assuming they stick to that schedule, because. Hilarious. Who knows?

Paul Thurat (4:51)

There's a lot here. So Copilot plus PC, it's mostly improvements to existing features, so agent and settings is getting better. There'll be more choices in that dropdown that you can just interact with directly instead of having to go find the setting. The click to do context menu, like the File Explorer context menu is being streamlined because it's getting too big.

Paul Thurat (5:14)

Although in this case, they're going to surface some of the more common commands like copy, share, save, etc. Right up front so you can get to those quickly.

Richard Campbell (5:24)

And then I'm going to make them into icons that we don't understand because I really like that.

Paul Thurat (5:28)

Yeah, yeah. They're going to start with hieroglyphics, and then they're going to move to some kind of a Mesopotamian language of some kind. I don't.

Richard Campbell (5:36)

All Sumerian all the time.

Paul Thurat (5:38)

Yeah, exactly. It's like, what's the fish again that share. Okay, that's just weird.

Leo Laporte (5:43)

You know, you got your loaves, you got your fishes. I don't know.

Paul Thurat (5:46)

It's not that a save or you could cut on your own. I don't know.

Richard Campbell (5:50)

So it's the squiggly line.

Paul Thurat (5:52)

Yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte (5:54)

That, my friend, is the river Nile, the mother of us all.

Richard Campbell (5:57)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (5:57)

In this case, the river sticks. So, you know, it's weird because as I go down this list, I'm like, man, I feel like I've been talking about this for months. Like this is just the same stuff over and over again. But now it's coming out to the world, right? So we don't really have this stuff quite yet. Click to do, like a streamline menu. If you are using click to do and there's a table on the screen, you'll automatically get a context menu with actions specifically for that. One of which will be that save to Excel thing, which is really nice or potentially nice. I've never experienced it, but that's one I've been trying to play with because you get a table like in a, you know, PDF or a website or whatever. It's. It's kind of a cool feature.

Paul Thurat (6:37)

The expansion of Windows Studio Effects to like secondary cameras. So if you have a USB camera, it will work with that. This was. Yeah, it was one of those weird things. Before it only worked with the, like the built in camera if you have a laptop or the first camera or whatever. But now we'll work with whatever cameras you have.

Paul Thurat (6:56)

Search box, placeholder is not a big deal. But like I said, the.

Paul Thurat (7:01)

File Explorer menus are getting simplified. The.

Paul Thurat (7:05)

What do you call it? The dark mode experience with File Explorer. And that is getting much better. So today, as most people know, if you use dark mode, you do something like the. The file. What do you call it? Sorry, the settings box, the options box, I guess for File Explorer or you do a file transfer. Those things are still light mode. Right. So those are going to go dark finally, you know, getting there.

Richard Campbell (7:27)

Calling it ext. Extra dark mode then.

Paul Thurat (7:29)

Like extra dark mode.

Richard Campbell (7:31)

Yeah. How dark is it?

Paul Thurat (7:33)

Yeah, it's. It's chocolate mode now. I don't know. Mocha something. I don't know, it's just more consistent.

Richard Campbell (7:39)

How about just consistent?

Paul Thurat (7:40)

Yeah, consistent without that like shining light in the dark thing.

Paul Thurat (7:45)

Yeah, this one's kind of vague, but a couple of months ago, they started working on adding categories to the Photos app. So if you use the Photos app to organize your photos, use the categories, you have to enable that uses AI to look at your photos and put them into these categories. Now that that's there, you can use Windows Search like from Search, like System Search and search for like a category, and it will actually come up with images right from your photo collection.

Richard Campbell (8:11)

So now, Mr. Theron, if you're going to talk about search working in Windows, I'm going to have to press the buzzer like you got.

Paul Thurat (8:17)

Sorry if I use the word work, but then I overspoke. They're adapting search to supposedly do this thing. I've never experienced it, so we'll see.

Richard Campbell (8:26)

Right.

Paul Thurat (8:27)

And then as far as like normal everyday users who do not have a Copilot plus PC, there's actually some interesting stuff. So, you know, minor changes to things like the Spotlight if you use it with the desktop, the File Explorer stuff like I said. But they're adding something called Virtual Workspaces in Advanced Settings. So Advanced Settings used to be called, I think Developer Settings or just Developer if you go to the Settings app. Let me see if it says here.

Paul Thurat (8:53)

I can't even find it. Doesn't matter. But it's a hard to find thing. If you use Visual Studio and you're creating a modern app, you have to actually turn on some stuff in Settings. And that used to be for developers. Now they're just calling it Advanced Virtual Works. Yeah, right. Because a lot of power users are using this stuff too, right?

Richard Campbell (9:10)

Sure.

Paul Thurat (9:11)

These are the types of things where you can right click on an icon in the taskbar and you can add an option for killing the task right from that jump list that pops up. You know, kind of, it's like, you know, type of thing maybe most people don't need, but Power user would want. So that's the type of thing that certainly.

Richard Campbell (9:27)

Power user. Yeah.

Paul Thurat (9:29)

Excuse me. Yeah.

Richard Campbell (9:31)

The weirdest icon on my desktop is a PowerShell script that calls into my wife's machine to mute her audio because she always walks away with her music turned on. By the way, the permissions model for that was impossibly difficult, but I'm very proud of that script.

Paul Thurat (9:49)

To say that sounds. That's pretty good. I was just looking at third party.

Richard Campbell (9:53)

I'm not going over there to turn stuff down. That's just not a thing that's got to go funny.

Paul Thurat (9:57)

I was playing around with the command line thing today. It's a third party tool, but it's for remote access. And I was like, it's interesting. That would have solved that problem too. So, virtual workspaces, I've not seen this, but this allows you to enable and disable things like Hyper V and Windows Sandbox. So today you have to. You basically have to search. I think it's. If you just go to start search and type features, you get turn Windows features on or off, and those things are there. And this is a legacy interface, so they're starting to bring that into settings, basically. So that's.

Richard Campbell (10:30)

Yeah, because I was hoping it was a call into like Azure Virtual Desktop.

Paul Thurat (10:35)

Well, you know what? Now that it's getting in there, I mean, I could actually see them doing that too. Right? I mean, sign in, put your credentials in right there and then have that just be a thing. Like, I could see that happening too, actually. Yeah. Bunch of changes to sharing, of course, because it's been a month, you know, just small kind of changes all around. You know, Widgets is actually. Widgets is a pretty big change. I don't really use this feature too much, but literally for a year now, Microsoft has been talking about this notion that the widget board, that thing that appears when you bring up widgets, which has actual widgets, and then some kind of a feed on the other side which is like. Has gone through different permutations. But the Microsoft Discovery feed essentially is going to allow you to switch between different views. So you can have just widgets, just the feed, swap out the feed with another feed, that kind of thing. So this one I've actually seen on one computer. It's actually pretty nice looking for the Nets Worth. You know, they've only been working on this for like, you know, four or five years now, but it's. It looks like it's finally getting there where it's like, okay, like, you know, still. The stories are all still crap, but.

Paul Thurat (11:45)

Excuse me, I'm going over it. I had the worst. I was like on my deathbed last week.

Leo Laporte (11:50)

Oh, I'm sorry.

Paul Thurat (11:51)

No, it's okay.

Paul Thurat (11:54)

Drag bar, that stupid UI that probably no one has seen yet, but the.

Leo Laporte (11:58)

Idea of a really good drag bar in San Francisco. Oh, that's a different kind.

Paul Thurat (12:01)

No, no, different. Nope, nope, nope. Okay, nope, not that one. It's not the Blue Oyster. It's. Which I think is Police Academy.

Paul Thurat (12:11)

So everyone knows about Snap. You drag windows around and you get that little bar that comes down. It helps you do the layout stuff. So they have a similar thing for sharing files. But the way you do that is you grab one or more files and then you drag them around, a little bar comes down, you get sharing options. Right. It's just trying to make it more discoverable. I hate it. I wanted to turn this off the second I saw it. Now you can. So in this update they're letting you turn that thing off. And it also supports multiple files now originally only apparently supported one, so that kind of thing. So, you know, the full screen experience is coming to more.

Paul Thurat (12:46)

Gaming handhelds. It's going to be available on to everyone if you want it very soon as well.

Paul Thurat (12:53)

And then lots of, lots of small changes all over the place.

Paul Thurat (12:58)

To, you know, fit and finish stuff in the UI. The Prism emulator for Windows 11 unarmed has been updated to support AVX and AVX2, which is one of those things that.

Paul Thurat (13:07)

Allows for more games to basically come across, etc. Etc. So it's actually, it's, you know, in the context of this year and the various monthly updates we've had, this is. It's a big one, you know. Why.

Paul Thurat (13:23)

Week D? Well, it's just the preview. So there will be. It will be the December when everyone gets it, assuming that happens, by the way, on schedule. It will be the December patch Tuesday, which is about.

Richard Campbell (13:34)

So this is, this is a Christmas present. We just got an early view of the Christmas present.

Paul Thurat (13:40)

Yeah, it's a Christmas present from someone who hates Christmas and everyone who celebrates it and they just want to keep you busy. I. I suppose there's a. No, there's no chance. I. There's no way they would have shipped this as a preview right now if they weren't going to ship November.

Richard Campbell (13:54)

Yeah, no, it makes sense. Merry Christmas. I moved your stuff.

Paul Thurat (13:58)

Yeah. Oh, and by the way, we're going to be off for the rest of the month. I hope nothing goes wrong. Yeah, so, yeah, I know this. The fact that it is the holidays suggests to me that this one's probably going to happen on schedule. Right. They're not going to want to delay this too much further because literally half that company is going to gone with the week of that. So.

Richard Campbell (14:16)

Yeah, for sure.

Paul Thurat (14:17)

We'll see. Yeah. So a big one. And then. I'm sorry, I got so many windows open here, I'm trying to figure out where I'm at. Okay, here we go. So there's that. And I'm just looking at my list, make sure I didn't forget anything. I guess not. And then just because like in the world of Windows, so to speak, other than some stuff that's in the back of the book, there hasn't really been much going on this past week because, you know, there hasn't been much going on anywhere this past week. But.

Richard Campbell (14:43)

Right.

Paul Thurat (14:45)

Google, a couple of things Android related which kind of factor into the PC space. One, we found out from a job listing that the.

Paul Thurat (14:56)

Product that's going to be the combination of Android and Chrome OS is called aluminium and it is aluminium, not aluminum.

Leo Laporte (15:04)

Yeah, I noted the extra eye in there.

Paul Thurat (15:06)

Yeah, yeah, it's aluminium os. The theory here is it sounds more like chromium. Right.

Richard Campbell (15:15)

It's not a, it's not a UK team working on it and insisting on.

Leo Laporte (15:19)

The wrong aluminum says you've got to call it aluminium.

Paul Thurat (15:23)

It's an elegant surface texture.

Leo Laporte (15:25)

I want to eat it.

Paul Thurat (15:27)

I don't know what you call it when the little hands in your hair stand up, but it does that. It's nice. No, it's. So this is, you know, we've, we've been kind of eking out noise about this all year, but this is Android coming to PCs and literally in this job listing, I guess, and elsewhere it says, you know, laptops, desktops, it's gonna be in all kinds of computers. So this next year could be kind of interesting in this space because, you know, we've got the iPad over there picking up multitasking features, background processes, etc. Become pretty elegant for that stuff, but still keeping the simple device like approach. Aluminium or Android has a desktop mode, floating windows multitask. You know, it's, it's, it's going to be, it's kind of interesting. So they're, they're kind of going after that. I assume it's basically. I'm sorry to keep coughing.

Paul Thurat (16:19)

I'm fine when I'm not on camera.

Paul Thurat (16:22)

I assume it's basically going to be Android with like desktop version of Chrome. You know, what we think of as Chrome os.

Richard Campbell (16:28)

They've been trying to get here for years, right? This has been the goal for forever.

Paul Thurat (16:33)

Well, yeah, someone jokingly responded to the story and said something like, oh yeah, this is the, you know, the strategy until they change it five more times. And I'm like, actually, I think this is the fifth change.

Paul Thurat (16:46)

You know, it was going to be Android, it was going to be Chrome os. You know, Chrome OS is coming to tablets. Then, you know, we go back and forth.

Paul Thurat (16:54)

I'm going to have to get something to drink here.

Richard Campbell (16:56)

But this is what Andy Rubin wanted all along, right?

Leo Laporte (16:59)

The creator of Android from the beginning, he wanted it to be the operating system.

Paul Thurat (17:05)

If you think about how Google uses it, it Is right. I mean Chrome OS is kind of the outlier in a way. Even though there are Chrome or Android bits in there and then more and more over time. But basic everything on the single code base, you know, kind of makes sense.

Leo Laporte (17:21)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (17:25)

I am so sorry.

Paul Thurat (17:27)

But the other thing that happened was Android or Google released Android 16 QPR2 which is platform release.

Paul Thurat (17:35)

Platform quarterly, platform release two.

Leo Laporte (17:39)

That thing they do every quarter, I'm guessing it is with great astute awareness. Is this a feature drop? Is that or. No, this is not.

Paul Thurat (17:51)

Well, this one's a little different. So quarterly they do the feature drops, Pixeland Android. This one is actually a what they call like an SDK update. So it's a minor SDK updates, first one they've ever done. Usually this is all once a year, but they change the schedule. They still have quarterly, but the middle quarterly one, if you will. The second one is the one where they actually rev the SDK as well. So it's actually a target for developers. This quarterly update scheme that they have seems good to me in the sense that Android, like iOS, like Windows, has monthly updates, but they're mostly just security updates. Right. But shipping features less often, you know, outside of apps. Not a horrible idea. And I, I think, you know, Android, there's a lot, there is a lot of churn, but compared to Windows, you know, it's not even close. Isn't there.

Leo Laporte (18:48)

There's kind of a history updates. They did update.

Richard Campbell (18:50)

I think they're adopting Microsoft naming strategies. Right, Go ahead.

Paul Thurat (18:57)

Yeah, I mean, well, they look, they've been doing this for over almost 25 years now. Right. Windows Update I think was roughly sometime in the XP time frame maybe. So it's probably about 25 years and they finally getting the names right. I mean. Okay, that's good.

Paul Thurat (19:16)

I think it was, I don't know if it was Dave from YouTube or somebody made the point that.

Paul Thurat (19:26)

I don't remember who made this point, but it was based. No, it was Linus Torvalds actually made the point this in an interview this week. He said, you know, everyone kind of dumps on Windows for the blue screen and everything. But he's like, actually that's the right way to handle those kind of errors. And he said, I guarantee you, based on my experience working on Linux, that most of those things are caused by bad hardware. Not from the os.

Leo Laporte (19:45)

That's right.

Paul Thurat (19:45)

And you can't. Microsoft always gets dumped on. But it's like, yep, you did something wrong with bailing is the right approach, you know.

Richard Campbell (19:54)

Yeah. So you also have chosen the path to support the largest diversity of hardware. And so you're going to have more problems.

Paul Thurat (20:03)

Yeah, I made this observation in the mid-90s. Someone was talking about this literally at a party in San Francisco. Some guy was saying, you know, Apple has the best engineers in the world, blah, blah. I'm like, really? Really? With the three computers they make, they, they get those things running every day. That's great. I'm like, Microsoft makes Windows run on a billion possible permutations of hardware configurations. The fact that this thing boots up at all is a miracle of computer science. I mean, you know, I'm like, I'm like, whatever. But I mean, it's nice having a known quantity, you know, to target. But when you, when the thing you're targeting is literally hardware abstraction, could be anything, you know, that's what your results are going to be too.

Leo Laporte (20:48)

Let's take a little time out and we will continue. Windows Weekly is live from Vilnius and Makunji.

Paul Thurat (20:56)

Yep. Sister cities, you know, bound by tragedy and sadness.

Leo Laporte (21:04)

And if you want, I will have Petaluma send you each a chicken. And you can, we can all be. We could be triplets.

Leo Laporte (21:11)

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Paul Thurat (22:32)

And.

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Richard Campbell (25:21)

Well, wow.

Leo Laporte (25:22)

Sort of a micro guy. 16 years at Google, six months at Microsoft. But you know I think I've worked.

Paul Thurat (25:29)

For Microsoft more than he has.

Leo Laporte (25:30)

But yeah, it's a big story. Do you know this guy Subramaniam?

Paul Thurat (25:36)

No, nobody does so well. Yeah, I'm surprised no one I know I wrote about this quickly the other night because it was nothing had happened all day and then suddenly between dinner and the time I went to bed there were three big stories. That was one of them. But this, he's been on the outs for a while. Right. So they failed with conversational Siri.

Leo Laporte (25:57)

Yeah, I think he's taken the blame for that.

Paul Thurat (25:59)

He took that away from him. Right.

Paul Thurat (26:02)

Still, you know, the whole Apple intelligence thing, it's fine like it's fine for what it is but it just hasn't really taken the world.

Leo Laporte (26:09)

It's not competitive with all the other.

Paul Thurat (26:11)

Tools including no, no. And you know and right now they just have a handoff to chat gbt which is fairly inelegant and, and whatever. But he was one of the big, you know, he was a big snag for them from Google at the time 2018 I think.

Leo Laporte (26:26)

Oh man.

Paul Thurat (26:26)

And that was a big story when it happened. Google or Apple rather after a trial of a few months did something that they'd never done under Steve, under Tim Cook rather where there was just an all up I org rather than having that be part of different parts of the company and it just didn't work. And so they're going back to their more for them traditional model. But.

Richard Campbell (26:51)

Yeah, Siri had been in trouble for a while.

Paul Thurat (26:53)

Right.

Richard Campbell (26:54)

Like it's so rare for us to get any sight into Apple's internal conflicts but whatever was going on between AI and Siri was so disastrous. There were multiple storage.

Paul Thurat (27:06)

I just think that this has been going on forever really. I mean they were first out the door with this kind of a digital assistant at least from like a big tech type company. I mean I know they purchased the company that did it but you know they came to market with the first everyone else basically copied them and then they let it sit forever, you know and I, I, this one I'm a little rough on but I feel like the guy or guys who came over from you know that did Siri originally left the company in some dispute because it was like you aren't doing anything with this. What are you doing like it has to keep improving and it just wasn't happening and. Yeah, and so it's proven difficult to adapt I guess to this stuff. But I feel like in the next four months, ish, this will be behind us and there'll be some Gemini based Siri thing that will probably be pretty good, you know, honestly.

Richard Campbell (28:00)

But you know, Gemini 3 landed very well.

Paul Thurat (28:04)

Yes, it did well.

Leo Laporte (28:05)

And that's where this guy came from originally. He was 16 years at Google and was I think a product manager for Gemini. So that's, it makes sense they'd hire this guy to, to kind of manage the relationship if this is going to be your future.

Paul Thurat (28:20)

But the, the, the part of the story that I haven't seen reported on a lot that to me is a big part of this is Apple has lost a lot of high level AI execs to other companies like OpenAI especially and they've been very, it's, this is a big problem for them internally. So who's left? Like you need to replace this guy who's not shown up. Everyone else is like taking off for other companies and it's like basically you have to poach somebody who just accepted a job at Microsoft that I've never heard of. Not that that means too much. I mean I'm not super invested in this space but like I don't know that there are any big names left. Yeah, that, that are well known, you know, to the outside world or whatever. So as far as I'm concerned, this person is kind of an unknown. But I.

Paul Thurat (29:10)

I don't, I, I mean, I think at this point the, the, the thing they're looking for maybe is not one of those top level Suleiman type guys, but rather like listen, you're going to be reporting to Craig Federighi basically, right. Or whatever. Like I, I think he actually does report directly to Tim Cook. But he's, you know, you're, you're, you have to work with these things. Like you can't just do, you can't. We're just going to go off and make vague foundational models and you know, we promised something like almost two years ago now we kind of got to show up with that eventually. Could you make that happen? You know, they need someone who can work and get done, you know, get this thing done. So we'll see, we'll see what comes of it. But it is kind of interesting.

Paul Thurat (29:55)

Somehow over the past week I ended up writing at least, well two at least anyway. But like kind of editorials about AI, which I Did not go into this meaning to do. But I saw a headline, I think it was late last week probably where Tim Swinney had on. Just on Twitter, had, in response to something else someone had tweeted, had said something like, yeah, we got to get rid of this made with AI thing for games because I guess Steam is, you know, is requiring that if you use AI to create a game, you have to. It's going to have this label on it. Like it's some kind of like a. Like it has high fructose corn syrup.

Leo Laporte (30:30)

In it or something like satanic markings.

Richard Campbell (30:33)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (30:34)

And it's like Guy, he's like, guys, all games are going to be made with AI obviously. And it's like, yeah, actually that's true. Obviously. Why not obviously true?

Leo Laporte (30:43)

Right?

Paul Thurat (30:43)

Like you would be stupid. I mean. No, I'm sorry, that's not fair. Some games, I guess you'll have these handcrafted, you know, kind of artisanal games, I guess. But like as far as, like Call of Duty, Fortnite, you know, whatever, AI is going to be part of it, you know, that's why not.

Richard Campbell (30:58)

Well, and, and made with such a vague concept like what is the. What purity are you going for here? Are you just going to organize electrons with tweezers? Like, is that what you're doing?

Paul Thurat (31:08)

It's like, how come there's a spelling mistake in this million dollar game you just made? Like, we didn't use AI. Steam wouldn't let us, couldn't spell check it. You know.

Leo Laporte (31:18)

It'S a visceral reaction to AI. Talk to my 22 year old, I 23 now, happy birthday. And he said, oh yeah, we don't use. I won't play any game with AI in it. And it's just a visceral reaction.

Paul Thurat (31:30)

It's just such a weird.

Leo Laporte (31:31)

The world is. There's a schism.

Richard Campbell (31:33)

How would you know?

Paul Thurat (31:35)

Well, when I was.

Leo Laporte (31:36)

That's all that aside, it's not that. It's not about all that. It's not rational, it's emotional. It's like, I don't. Yeah, it scares me. It's creepy. I don't want to have anything to do with it.

Paul Thurat (31:45)

This is the wrong react. This is. We have the word insertification, right. It's such a beautiful word because you hear it and you're like, yeah, I know what this is exactly. I see it everywhere. Like it's perfect. And unfortunately in the AI space, it's the other one in a way. But is this term like AI slope? And it's Just like the easiest thing to throw. It's just AI slob, you know? Yeah, okay. Because humans never make mistakes. But, you know, I, I have this really strong memory of this. Like in the late 1980s, the. I don't know if it was in part of Deluxe Paint. It was like the guys that made Deluxe Paint basically came up with this program on the Amiga that allowed you to do animation, but it was like that cell animation. Like back in the day, Disney would have to draw every frame, 60 frames a second. Right. Or whatever it was 24. Make the mouse run across the screen. And the way this thing worked is like every fifth or tenth or every. Every second it would draw the things between the two so you didn't have to do all of it.

Leo Laporte (32:45)

Right?

Paul Thurat (32:45)

And it was like, yep, this is clearly the way forward. But, you know, at that time there were. It's just we. Not as vocal then. We weren't all connected, but there were people back then going, oh, no, I'm never going to watch any animation that isn't hand drawn. That's. That's, you know, that's crap. It's like, what do you. We just invented animation two weeks ago. Like, relax, you know, like, video games have only been around for 45 years. Like, give it a second. Like, of course, yeah, you're going to use technology to improve this thing.

Leo Laporte (33:16)

Like, of course, yeah, you and I know that.

Richard Campbell (33:19)

I don't know. I like my. I would, I wouldn't like my chromium tweezer strategy.

Leo Laporte (33:24)

What's that? Oh, with the bits? Yeah, just.

Richard Campbell (33:27)

Yeah, we're just going to pick up. We're going to pick up each electron and we're going to assemble them ourselves.

Leo Laporte (33:31)

I think it's apparent that AI is going to be around everywhere. I mean, even in music.

Paul Thurat (33:36)

I just like, like outraged.

Leo Laporte (33:39)

I don't think we need to get in a fight about it. If people don't like it, that's fine and you don't have to defend it. It's just. It is going to happen. It's obviously going to happen. I don't think this is.

Richard Campbell (33:49)

Come on.

Paul Thurat (33:49)

This is like, is it real or is it Photoshopped? Right. But before that there was like airbrushing and before that there was just photography. And like, seriously, like, of course this technology evolves. People are going to use it, they're going to make things better with it, whatever. Yeah. Will there be crap? Yeah, of course. I mean, but for every, you know, there are these, like, early, like, if you're into, I don't know, what you call this. But like in the 1980s, they made, it was supposed to be the first of two parts. They made one part, but it was like a Lord of the Rings movie that was animated, but it was like rotoscope or something. They had. Yeah, and, and that, you know, look at that today and you're like, okay, this is kind of unique and weird, but it's not great. But then things like Roger Rabbit happened, all the Pixar movies and blah, blah, blah, whatever. And I don't know that anyone would ever look at something just like Toy Story, which is now itself 30 years old, by the way. Right? Ish. Yeah, over 30 years and be like, oh, that's crap. That's not hand drawn animation. You know, that's garbage. It's like, guys, like, come on. I mean, there's a place for it, it's fine. But video games are just obvious. You know, there was a headline, you know, a month or so ago, it was like, oh, you know, some, someone's figured out that like, they probably use some AI assets in Battlefield 6. Like, you think, you think they spent a billion bucks in this thing and didn't want to get it? Like, come on. Like, of course, to me, that's where it goes.

Paul Thurat (35:22)

This is where you want it. It's going to make the industry.

Richard Campbell (35:25)

Well, we've been talking about how expensive it is to make games, how it's limited, what games could be made.

Richard Campbell (35:33)

There's always been automation tools to allow them to do more. This is another generation of automation.

Paul Thurat (35:41)

This is what Microsoft used to be good at. And you might be able to argue that they still are. But it's like the demo, the democratization of technology, right? That it's not just some kind of white lab suit up in a tower bequeathing us with some, you know, capability. We're going to give it to everybody, you know, and the fact that we can walk around with an iPhone or whatever phone we have and make like a Hollywood quality movie, essentially. I mean, I obviously need other tools and skills and whatever, but, you know, this is, this opens up this capability to more and more people and people who might not have ever come to light now can be creators in that way. And AI is exactly this. It's a but it's, it's this but for like everything, you know.

Paul Thurat (36:30)

So I, I just like, it's like made with AI. Like we're gonna. But I put the scarlet AI letter on your chest, you know, because you, you didn't make it all yourself, you jerk. You know, like you cut some corners, you know, like you wanted to see a family or something over the holidays. Lazy jerk. You know, like, of course you're going to use AI Like, I, I wouldn't.

Leo Laporte (36:51)

I wouldn't dismiss the reaction though, because I mean, look what happened last year at the Academy Awards. The brutalist used AI very minorly to tweak the Hungarian accents. And I think the Academy, it did, it was nominated for an Oscar but didn't have a chance of winning one because people were so upset about that. So don't just. I mean, I agree with you, but this, but this reaction is not going to.

Paul Thurat (37:15)

The reaction is very human. The problem is it's, it's the same reaction we always like, remember.

Leo Laporte (37:22)

I know that, but, but you, but don't dismiss it because it's got power behind it. I'm just saying.

Paul Thurat (37:28)

Well, I initially think that has more power behind it is the tsunami of AI that's going to hit these people and wash them away. So, you know, like, you can complain all you want, but it's. I'm sorry, it's happening. OK. You know, sometime in the late 90s, early 2000s, there was that movie. Oh brother, we're out there. You know, great movie. George Clooney, etc. It is, it's striking to this day to watch this movie because it has such a yellow kind of a tone to it. They were trying to make it look like that era and not like it really like. Because the world was yellow at that time, though. Yeah, it's a sepia kind of a. It makes it look old timey basically. Right?

Richard Campbell (38:04)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (38:05)

And I don't know that they called that AI at the time, but it was, you know, whatever you color grading, however they do it, whatever.

Leo Laporte (38:13)

But that's actually the Godfather. They took that, they took the print, the one and only and dragged it through T.

Leo Laporte (38:23)

That kind of color.

Paul Thurat (38:24)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (38:25)

And they. And the DP at the time said, I know this is risky because this is the only copy of this movie. Yeah, but this is what.

Paul Thurat (38:33)

So were there people boycotting tea or was that just from the 1600s?

Paul Thurat (38:38)

Whatever the era they were.

Paul Thurat (38:42)

I just don't.

Leo Laporte (38:43)

People resist technology, but it eventually happens. I don't know if the debate is over whether it's better or not. I mean, I think humans might have some merit in saying we don't want too much of our creativity usurped by machines. I think in gaming there's a lot of stuff. You were saying, Richard, in the discord, that NPCs could get a lot Better with some, that's for sure. True. I mean, how many times did you have, I was an adventurer like you, but I got an arrow through the.

Paul Thurat (39:11)

Knee, you know, I read you don't.

Leo Laporte (39:13)

Need to hear that again and again and again.

Paul Thurat (39:14)

When, when the latest Call of Duty came out, they were, you know, promoting it as they would, right? And so one of the things they were promoting was like, we're launching with more multiplayer levels and we've launched with ever or whatever in order a long time. And I looked it up and it was like there were two more than last year. Like it wasn't even that much more. But I'm like, okay. But they were talking about like they have the people who make these games, these particular levels, like the types of things you would play multiplayer have these design patterns and I don't remember the names of them, but it's basically like a three route deal. Like there's a middle route and then the side routes guys come in and you have flanking and things and you know, guys are all over the place. And, and when that works, there's a magic to it. And if you play that game or any other game where this works out really well, every once in a while you run into a level where you're like, oh my God, like they, this, they really nailed it with this thing. Like people love it when it comes up as a choice. Everyone's like, yep, we're playing this one, this is great. You know, and then they're the ones that fail, right? I mean, some aren't as good, but that's the type of thing that AI would be good at, right? You have 25 years of history of maps, like probably maybe thousands at this point of maps, you could, you have all the data from how many people played and how long and blah, blah, blah, whatever it was, you could put it in your little AI machine and be like, make more of this stuff, you know, Right? This is what AI is great at.

Paul Thurat (40:38)

And right now, to my knowledge, that's not happening. Right? I mean it should be, I mean that should be what we're doing. Like it seems like that's, that's a great use of AI for game making.

Paul Thurat (40:51)

So we'll see. I, I, obviously there'll be, you know, setbacks and there'll be bad things and whatever, but I, I, I don't know, I mean, even like Leo was talking about this, you know, what about humanity and creativity and everything? And it's like, I feel like this is the argument people were having when photography occurred. It's like, well hold on a second. We have these people that make oil paintings. They're masters. Like they're why we're going to replace these with this little snapshoty thing. Like.

Paul Thurat (41:22)

I'm sure, like we just didn't have the Internet.

Leo Laporte (41:24)

There's a difference. I'll tell you the difference.

Paul Thurat (41:26)

Okay.

Leo Laporte (41:27)

There's still a human involved in the photographic process. There's no human involved in some of this AI stuff. Right. It's just generated.

Paul Thurat (41:36)

So I mean how many sports games have been called or have been decided by a bad call? Well, how many airline disasters?

Leo Laporte (41:43)

I'm not disagreeing that there's an appropriate use of it.

Leo Laporte (41:47)

But I think there's also an inappropriate use of it. And I think that that's where we're learning is what's acceptable.

Paul Thurat (41:54)

So what's an inacceptable use of AI today?

Leo Laporte (41:56)

Would you say replacing the creativity of a human with a very generic form of creativity created by a machine?

Paul Thurat (42:03)

Well, what if it was better though? I mean like at some point if it's not so generic.

Leo Laporte (42:10)

Well this is the, this is the debate in music right now. I mean Spotify, Lisa got a ride from an Uber driver, said, you know, this is just my sideline. I actually, I make an album a week with Suno. He's not a musician.

Richard Campbell (42:22)

Wow.

Leo Laporte (42:23)

He makes an album a week which he uploads to Spotify. He says I'm making a few hundred dollars a month now, but all it takes is one to hit and I won't have to drive anymore. And he is one of a army of thousands people doing this. And at this. I think we're at the tipping point now with music where you probably the chances are you're listening to more artificial music.

Paul Thurat (42:45)

Guys, we're all kind of the same age here, right. I think we can all agree most of the music that's out today is crap. So it's like when you tell me that we're going to replace an auto tuned non professional singer with an AI thing. I mean like this is six, one half dozen. As far as I'm concerned, it music has been fake for a long time. Yeah. By the way, someone asks someone, I saw this somewhere in the thing. Someone said well who did, who did the. Yeah, who did photography put out of work? Who cares? You don't know who those people they were painter. But, but no but, but I have an answer to that which is who does the AI image generator put out of work? Right. Because the example I've always used is I, I write several articles a day. On most days. I don't use AI to generate an image for every single one of them, but I could very easily. And the benefit of that is I have a unique image that no one else is going to have. It's not like a stock photography thing. I know graphic artists. I cannot afford to pay them to do this work. None of them could generate four images within seconds of me asking them then say one of those is pretty good, but change it like this and go through that process for five or 10 minutes and then create an image that is something new.

Richard Campbell (44:04)

Right.

Paul Thurat (44:05)

So that's not a job being replaced. I'm not. There's. My graphic artist friends are not being put out of work. They were never getting that job. That job did not exist. So this is creating new opportunities. Like this is a.

Paul Thurat (44:21)

I've said this AI fundamentally it saves you time. But the other way to say that is fundamentally it also saves you money. And then there's this nexus of saving time and money where something new is created. So you're saving time money and you're doing this thing that could never have been done before. And that's what photography enabled, by the way. And as it improved over time, like air travel improved over time and it turns into this thing that was rare and all you would. No one knew what it was a guy. You'd have to hold the thing steady for a long time and whatever. Everyone had to stay still. And now it's snip, snip, snip, snip. And now we have all. Everyone has cameras and you know, who care. We don't care anymore. It's 150 years later, we've stopped caring about that. We don't care about the stagecoach driver, we don't care about the cobbler, we don't care about the shoesmith. We don't. Which is a cop, whatever. You know, like this is. That's not the point. Like if, if the, if the thing. The way things are now is the best they've ever been. I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Like, this is like I, I used to, I the start. One of the stories I told was I used to work in a bank and people. I'm thinking about this now, used to see people standing in line with paper checks. And those people were one of two people. They were people who were paid by check who did not have their own accounts anywhere else and.

Paul Thurat (45:44)

Had to go to the drawing bank to cash the check because the check is from that bank. So they could cash it they show their id, they get their money. The other group was old people. Even though we had had ATM machines in that bank for 25 years, by the late 1980s, they were never going to use an ATM. They were old and they were like, I need to talk to a person, I have to do my banking. We're going to chat a little bit, we're going to keep the people behind me waiting, yada, yada. And we all stood in line. So do we not move past this? Because those jobs, you know, go away because there are no tellers anymore. They're probably some tellers, right. But you don't have as much of a need for them anymore because well died and no one gets paid by check anymore. You know, I made the case the other day, like we were at the farmer's market last weekend, didn't have a dollar, we didn't have a center. We, we gave some money to a homeless charity. We bought some apples, we bought some peanut butter. And all of those things were like Venmo or whatever. Venmo, something like Venmo. Every one of them, you know, micro payments.

Richard Campbell (46:47)

We had the modern version of this is what Radiology, you know, Jeff Hinton, the one of the godfathers back in 2016, after they beaten Imagenet, you know, they now made it so that phones could recognize images. It was done. He said radiology is a dead job. Like there's no point in being it anymore. And the reality is the opposite has happened.

Paul Thurat (47:09)

That, yeah, you need someone's radio.

Richard Campbell (47:12)

Yeah. And the reality is there's 700 models now approved by the FDA for evaluating radiological images. And the radiologists are doing three times as many recommendations as they used to do. And there's demand for more. Like they're the lowering the, making it easier to do medical scanning has meant far more medical scans and their demand for even more. So, you know, that market simply expands.

Paul Thurat (47:37)

We, so we live next to New Jersey and New Jersey is either the only or one of the only places in the world that mandates that gas stations have to have attendance. So every time I get gas in New Jersey, I forget this because that's not been the case anywhere that I've ever been.

Richard Campbell (47:53)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (47:53)

In a long, long time. And you get out of your car and you go over to the pump and the guy's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing there?

Leo Laporte (48:00)

What are you doing?

Paul Thurat (48:01)

Certified petroleum exchange expert.

Leo Laporte (48:04)

What are you doing?

Paul Thurat (48:05)

You know, like, I remember when we were first married, I, we were staying at my wife's parents house one Weekend and I forgot my toothbrush. And I was like, well, I go to the supermarket and buy one, whatever. So I drove over there, going to this giant empty store at night. No one is. I didn't see a human being the whole time I was there. So I walked into the belly of this thing, grabbed a single toothbrush, walked up to the front. Snow in there. And I had my first experience. Self checkout. Right. First time ever. So this might have been, well, very early 1990s. So a long time ago, 35 years ago. And I listen, I know a little bit about technology. I've always been pretty good with it. I. This thing befuddled me. I was almost crying by the time I got out of there. I finally figured it out. It took me a long time. If there had been a human being, I would have asked for help. I would have let them do it. I was like, I really struggled with this. And I came back and they were like, what took so long? And I'm like, I don't want to talk about this right now. I need some time, you know, and if you would ask me right then, like, should we do this? The self checker? This is the future, right? Nope. No. We need to have people manning those things all the time. We need human beings. If you'd asked me then today, you know, depending on what it is, I guess, but like. Like, I'd rather just go up BE and get the hell out of there. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to wait in a line. I don't want, you know, like, it's things.

Leo Laporte (49:23)

You get gas on your hands.

Paul Thurat (49:26)

I do get my hands sometimes. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (49:29)

And that's true. You could blow yourself up if you picked up your cell phone.

Paul Thurat (49:33)

All kinds of things could go wrong. But, you know, I. Do you trust yourself more than you trust the idiot who has to work at a gas station? I, like, I don't know, Like, I.

Leo Laporte (49:42)

Just, you know, Point.

Paul Thurat (49:43)

Yeah. I don't know.

Leo Laporte (49:47)

What did you train for? Petroleum transfer Expert. Lab and certified. I know what I'm doing. I have 18 hours of experience under my.

Paul Thurat (49:56)

What does that mean? You're like, I put the gas in the car. I see.

Paul Thurat (50:00)

Would we say your job is here, Bob.

Paul Thurat (50:06)

Middleman is what I'm hearing.

Leo Laporte (50:07)

I think, though, that I have people skills.

Paul Thurat (50:11)

Yeah, yeah, people skills, exactly.

Leo Laporte (50:18)

I think that though it would. Look, I. I go down on both sides of this one, but I think it's not unreasonable to say that there should be and are things that AI is good at and should be allowed to do. But then there are things it's, it's that old tweet from famous writer said, I, I don't want, I don't want AI to write my novels and make my music for me. I wanted to do the stuff I don't want to do so I have more time to write novels and make music. Right.

Paul Thurat (50:47)

Everyone has different skills. Right. One of the things that always blew my mind was like, a writer like Stephen King, who writes these thousand page books, you know, back in the 1980s, especially back when he would have been doing this on a word processor, which at the time was probably like a sign of the devil from the people who were still working on mechanical typewriters, however they were writing their books. And he never took notes about the characters. So you would, like, when he got back to them, like, there would be all these inter, you know, weaving storylines, and it's like, all right, so where's Bob now? It's like, let me go back in my notes. He never did that. He just wrote the stories. Right. And so, you know, editors would have to read these things and be like, actually, the timeline here doesn't make sense. Or this, the moon isn't where it would be where you said it, or whatever it is. Right. So you have to check that stuff. Right. And I feel like that's something AI would be good at. Right. Just make sure this makes conceptual sense, you know, or whatever. That's like, a writer could use that kind of a.

Leo Laporte (51:43)

Here's, here's the quote. I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so that I can do art and writing, not for AI to do my art and writing so that I can do my laundry and dishes.

Paul Thurat (51:54)

Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean, sure. No, that's a good one. That's a great quote, by the way.

Leo Laporte (51:59)

Joanna Maczevsky. Yeah, Maczevska.

Paul Thurat (52:01)

Yeah. Video game enthusiasts would like more time to do nothing. That's weird. So I don't know. No, but I.

Richard Campbell (52:08)

Look, loading a dishwasher is hard.

Paul Thurat (52:11)

It's. No, unloading a dishwasher is terrible. If you, if we didn't call this AI if we just said technology, right. This conversation would be a little bit different because we're very comfortable with the fact that we use technology for everything. That dishwasher we're talking about has a computer in it, you know? You know, like, I, I, there's something. AI is like almost tainted, you know, it is, it's partially tainted, like, for those of us in the know. And by that, I mean guys like you and me, not because we're, like, super smart about AI, but we've been dealing with the kind of marketing of AI for a long time. You know, Microsoft has been talking up AI or Apple has been talking up machine learning or whatever it is for years and years, and now it's, you know, exploded. So now we're like, geez, what's. What's happening here? You know, you. You have. There is this visceral reaction to it. It's like. I thought it was just spell checking. No, no, no, that's AI. That's. And you're like.

Paul Thurat (53:13)

I don't know.

Leo Laporte (53:14)

I don't know.

Paul Thurat (53:15)

What's a. Like, I think AI just has a. It gets a bad rap, you know?

Leo Laporte (53:19)

Oh, it definitely does. We've got a guy coming up on intelligent machines. He's a former spy.

Paul Thurat (53:24)

Okay.

Leo Laporte (53:24)

And he says that soon it'll be machines spying on machines, and we all need to become spies in the future. Yeah, it's a very interesting premise. So that'll be a fun conversation. Right?

Paul Thurat (53:37)

This is like a Daniel Suarez wet dream. You know, it is gonna go. This is gonna. Yeah, he's. He's set for life now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Richard Campbell (53:46)

All those storylines.

Leo Laporte (53:48)

I should. I should. I should talk to Daniel, see what he's like.

Paul Thurat (53:50)

Because, like, you, you wrote these stories 10 years ago, this futuristic and insane, and now it's like, yeah, they're almost tame by comparison, you know? Right. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (54:00)

Let's take a little break. More to come. You're watching Windows Weekly, Paul Thurat and Richard Campbell. Our show today, brought to you by a well rested Leo laporte, thanks to my Helix Sleep mattress.

Paul Thurat (54:15)

Love my Helix Sleep.

Leo Laporte (54:17)

Are you getting ready for the holiday hosting season? You said you have. You have extra bedrooms, Paul.

Leo Laporte (54:24)

Maybe you want to take a look at improving the mattresses and all of those.

Paul Thurat (54:28)

We'd like to improve my mattress.

Leo Laporte (54:30)

Well, you know, I was thinking about this last night as I lay on my Helix sleep.

Paul Thurat (54:35)

I've lost so much sleep this week.

Leo Laporte (54:36)

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Leo Laporte (58:18)

That is not a good idea, Keith.

Paul Thurat (58:20)

Yeah, especially if it's coins.

Leo Laporte (58:23)

Get a healing clothes.

Richard Campbell (58:24)

Super comfortable.

Paul Thurat (58:26)

Common sense, people. Yes.

Leo Laporte (58:29)

Okay, let's see. Did you see that, Sam Altman? There was a rumor going around somebody looked at the source code of the Android version of the OpenAI ChatGPT app and saw code that implied there's going to be ads. So I think of course there is. Yeah, but that's. Of course we know that's coming. Well, shortly thereafter, the. You saw the code red memo from Sam Altman said, hold on.

Richard Campbell (58:57)

Wait a minute.

Leo Laporte (59:00)

I think it's interesting. What is it? Why did. What's the reason for this panic?

Paul Thurat (59:07)

Well, we've made this case before on the show. Like OpenAI or ChatGPT is like the Kleenex of AI, right?

Leo Laporte (59:15)

It's the one everybody uses.

Paul Thurat (59:16)

Yeah, everyone uses it. It's a bizarre example of something very technical that normal people are actually paying for. I, I don't even know how they found out about it. You know, it's. It's very interesting. It's. It must be word of mouth essentially. Like, yeah, yeah, these people are not reading tech blogs, you know, whatever.

Leo Laporte (59:33)

But they found out somehow.

Paul Thurat (59:34)

They found it and they were like, oh my God, this is amazing. Yep. I want to pay for this. Like, that's a, that's rare. I mean, it's really neat. And they, that's just been. I don't. Lucky's going to be not fair to them. I mean, they, whatever.

Leo Laporte (59:45)

They have market share, that's for sure.

Paul Thurat (59:47)

Yeah, yeah. But the other case we've made a bunch of times was, you know, we've got these companies and Google may be the most dangerous of all. Who. Yeah, I guess they stumbled out of the gate there a little bit. But they have deeper roots in this stuff than anybody. They've been working on this for decades. They have all these consumer services that hover over a billion users each. They're probably going to catch up. You know, they're going to be one of the big three or whatever.

Richard Campbell (60:14)

They're going to be a player for sure.

Paul Thurat (60:15)

Yep. And you know, we've been kind of waiting for that to happen. I guess in some ways I'm sure they have to. But whatever reason, you know, Nano Banana I think was the first big one for them. And then, you know, and, and this is the one where it's like, yeah, forget everything you ever heard about this. They're doing great. Like these guys are nailing it. And, and you know, that's the.

Leo Laporte (60:39)

A.

Paul Thurat (60:39)

Lot of what floats OpenAI is the same thing that floats anything Wall street related, which is just hope for the future. And this is the, you know, eventually the dog is going to start wagging the tail and it will make sense or something.

Richard Campbell (60:56)

You're already seeing that whole Bloomberg diagram of Nvidia investing in companies so they can just pay that money back to Nvidia for parts is this self dealing thing that tries to keep the trend of growth looking like they're going to continue, keep those investors on board just a bit longer.

Paul Thurat (61:16)

You know, big platforms that have been around a long time, like Windows is a great example. But also, you know, Google search and a lot of the things Google makes, whatever, are the types of things that are big enough that.

Paul Thurat (61:30)

Even if they fail, so to speak, or some other thing is better and comes out and makes them look bad, whatever, you know, inertia goes a long way, especially when you're, you know, you have a billion customers or whatever it is. So it, it takes a lot to get people to switch and, and move off and whatever. So you know, they, they were always going to be able to buy some time. ChatGPT though, comes up in a slightly different era, doesn't it? This is like the Netflix era, this is the Spotify era. This is the, you're paying per month for a thing that if it makes you upset today you can be like, nope, and you take it away, turn it off and you go to the next thing. And there are a lot of other things that do the same thing. Right. And so the stickiness of ChatGPT is an unknown, I guess I would say. Obviously a lot of these features they're building into it like memory and so forth, where it gets to know your or has a personality and you develop some kind of a weird relationship with it. Play into the stickiness part, right? This is maybe the impetus for that stuff. I don't know. But.

Paul Thurat (62:30)

But yeah, there's a big question here whether they're going to be some kind of a flash in the pan. But the problem for OpenAI is that they're on the hook for a trillion dollars by the way of interweaving monies that no one actually has and there's going to. You know, I know just thinking about this from like the Xbox perspective, like there was a time three, four years ago where there was a quarter in the fall. It was like before the holidays and Microsoft said a certain third party game title did went blockbuster and it like actually raised the whole Xbox boat. And they were talking about Fortnite at the time and they didn't say the name of the company or the product because it wasn't theirs. But they had to make a note of it because it was like, why is this. This is up in commensurately with, you know, normal quarter over quarter. And the opposite could happen to OpenAI where, you know, eventually they're going to. It will be some company, it could be Nvidia, it could be Amazon, it could be whomever where something comes due and they're like, we don't actually need that capacity, we're not going to pay. Right. And. And then that company will have to report that and maybe in the beginning they'll be polite because you don't want to harm that company because that will snowball to you too. It's like they're all interlocked. Right, Right. So there'll be some company randomly in, some quarter will say something like third quarter results were impacted by.

Paul Thurat (63:55)

Less strong than expected, whatever, blah, blah, blah, capacity wasn't necessary, whatever it was. And that could snowball into something horrible. So the code red from OpenAI's perspective is the bubble bursting in their face essentially. Right. Because that could happen quick.

Richard Campbell (64:14)

Yeah.

Richard Campbell (64:17)

And lots of people are positioning themselves to be able to deal with this shock that is clearly coming.

Paul Thurat (64:23)

Well, if, like if OpenAI disappeared, which is not going to happen, but if they just disappear, you woke up tomorrow.

Richard Campbell (64:31)

There'S plenty of models. Right. More saliently, OpenAI is Netscape in this little AI bubble drama and they're going to be acquired.

Paul Thurat (64:40)

Yeah, yeah. Right, right.

Richard Campbell (64:42)

Inevitably their name brand, their brand recognition is worth something.

Paul Thurat (64:50)

What they're also afford them and or be able to buy them because in their current climate of antitrust and so forth, the companies that might want, well.

Leo Laporte (65:00)

You got three more years that you could probably get away with it.

Richard Campbell (65:04)

Plus you're talking about a company that's going to be essentially bankrupt, that's made promises they can't fulfill and prices adjust sharply in those circumstances.

Leo Laporte (65:14)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (65:16)

Scenario, you know.

Richard Campbell (65:18)

Yeah. I don't know that it's not right. They're not actually big companies. They're not employing a huge number of people. They're pretty small entities. The one that's really playing games right now is Meta, where Meta, who is running short of money because Zuckerberg spent that much, has now convinced investment groups to build data centers where Meta is promising to utilize them to have a rate. And now they're starting to securitize those data centers. So they're. They're splitting up ownership across multiple packages so that they would have. Which it's like CDRs all over again in 2008.

Paul Thurat (65:57)

Yeah, it's like a vacation rental. You get like a week rental every year or something.

Richard Campbell (66:03)

Except now if Meta doesn't need those data centers, just a whole lot of investors holding the bag.

Paul Thurat (66:10)

I don't have this in the notes, but there was a. Because I just couldn't dig into it deep enough to figure out anything about whether it's true or not. But Microsoft allegedly just told their sales staff to lower all their targets on this AI stuff. It's just not working, you know, and that's the type of story I would say today sounds like. You know, you hear that, you're like, yeah, that sounds about right. But we don't really know. I don't want.

Leo Laporte (66:32)

Yeah, Reuters had the store. Or actually the information has a story. Reuters has a story that Microsoft's denying it at this point.

Paul Thurat (66:39)

There you go. Yes. Well, they should. I mean, they should deny it, but I. It's one of those things you're like, oh, it sounds right, but I don't want to give too much attention to it because I don't know.

Richard Campbell (66:49)

Well, I did the AI keynote today, and afterwards a couple people come out. He says, when should I get out of the market? And I said, before the crash.

Paul Thurat (66:56)

Yep. As usual.

Leo Laporte (66:59)

I think that's universal advice. Yeah.

Paul Thurat (67:05)

Can't help with that one.

Richard Campbell (67:07)

Nope.

Leo Laporte (67:08)

I wonder. You said, too big to fail. And I kind of got my mind working. The current federal government is very pro AI. In fact, the New York Times had a expose of David Sacks and how he's pushing the federal government in that direction of no regulation. Very pro AI. If OpenAI did start to struggle, I could see.

Leo Laporte (67:33)

Trump saying, let's. Okay, we'll just. Just so make it ours.

Paul Thurat (67:37)

You know, you probably saw the story a week or two ago. I think it was CFO of opening or somebody. Just an interview. Yeah, it was a list of things like we would be open to government intervention. And it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, and then Sam Altman came up, well, we don't.

Leo Laporte (67:54)

Because the Treasury Secretary said, under no circumstances are we Gonna, no, but you.

Paul Thurat (67:59)

Almost get a but. I don't buy it. Was that like a little trial balloon like.

Richard Campbell (68:02)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You got to test the air on all of those things.

Paul Thurat (68:06)

Yep. And I feel like that's what we're seeing. And I, it's just there's no justification for it.

Richard Campbell (68:11)

This isn't the banking industry. This is not a contagion that's going to affect regular people. The tech giants have just been spending cash. They're not over leveraged the investment guys. This is what being a sophisticated investor means. Congratulations, you can lose money. It's okay.

Paul Thurat (68:29)

I mean, in the sense that Wall street, like I said, is kind of selling a dream, so to speak. I mean the problem for the economy is one of perception and unfortunately that real impact.

Richard Campbell (68:40)

And look, if the s and P500 straightens itself out, that's 80% of equities in the US like a 30% haircut on that is a big spike and that's a downturn that's going to affect Everybody. It's also 50% of securities worldwide. So we're going to have a couple of years of tough times when this correction comes, but we will climb out of it inevitably.

Paul Thurat (69:07)

Yeah, last time we did, we had a world war, didn't we? I'm sure it'll be fine this time. So I don't know, but yeah, I don't, I can't. The financial stuff, I can't, I don't know. I just don't know about this.

Richard Campbell (69:20)

But it's more like 2008 than it is like 1929.

Paul Thurat (69:25)

Yeah, okay.

Paul Thurat (69:28)

Yeah, I mean, right.

Paul Thurat (69:31)

I don't know. I will, you know, we'll see. But I, I.

Paul Thurat (69:36)

I would like. What I'd like to see happen is a little more measured response to stuff which would include the SEC kind of stepping in and saying, you know, we're going to start actually taking a close look at all this stuff and ensure that you guys are all reporting your inter. Dealings correctly within the letter of the law, so to speak. And you just don't hear that. So I'm not saying it won't happen but, but I feel like, I don't know, that's not, we don't really have that kind of responsible government right now. So I just, I don't really see that happening.

Richard Campbell (70:04)

No, you could see a movement towards competent institutions that enforce the laws on the books. That would be interesting.

Paul Thurat (70:13)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know, it's like 800 million weekly users on ChatGPT.

Paul Thurat (70:24)

I wonder how many of them pay for it. But even if they were all paying for it, they wouldn't have done enough.

Richard Campbell (70:28)

Money for what they're spending.

Paul Thurat (70:30)

That's what I'm saying.

Paul Thurat (70:32)

800 million times 20.

Paul Thurat (70:36)

Let's do the math. How much of their.

Paul Thurat (70:39)

When does this become profitable? How is this.

Richard Campbell (70:42)

No, I don't get it.

Paul Thurat (70:43)

I don't quite get it.

Richard Campbell (70:44)

Well, and.

Richard Campbell (70:46)

People don't need. These companies aren't incented to be profitable. They still believe in the blue ocean land grab. And that's one of the things that a downturn actually does is gets you focused on making sure you're being as efficient as possible rather than just grow, grow, grow. You know, I, it's a normal shakeout.

Paul Thurat (71:07)

I think I mentioned this the day it happened or whatever. But a couple of weeks or month, a month ago, something, my wife made this comment, I had said something about this money stuff with Microsoft and OpenAI and they're just, you know, just pixie dusting everything. And she said, she goes, you know, it's funny, she goes, you and I have this little business and we don't make a profit in three years. It becomes a hobby.

Richard Campbell (71:29)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (71:29)

And I'm like, right, so what's the system? What's the thing they have? Like how do we get in that boat? You know? Yeah, just throw us money.

Richard Campbell (71:39)

Yeah, it's just, you know, this, this is power of the big lie model.

Paul Thurat (71:43)

Right.

Richard Campbell (71:44)

But if deep seek pointed away to a more efficient option, like there's no reason they couldn't be working on efficiency. Except that A, they've pitched this on infinite growth, B, the tech giants benefit from getting more data centers.

Paul Thurat (71:58)

We're the only ones that can do this. So this is how it has to happen.

Richard Campbell (72:03)

And China's like, they're looking back at the dot com boom and saying the real win here was all the new fiber optic cable. The trick is not to go bankrupt doing it. And that's what the tech giants have been doing. They're stretching out their lead on cloud deployment so the nobody will ever be able to compete with them.

Paul Thurat (72:20)

Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. The most likely outcome at the end of all this literally is look at whatever big tech is today will be what big tech is in five or ten years, you know.

Richard Campbell (72:33)

Yeah, that's, that's their main goal is we have a disruptive moment, let's protect ourselves.

Paul Thurat (72:37)

We might see a little GPUs are.

Richard Campbell (72:39)

Going to get cheaper, you know, but that's fine. They're a little over excessively pricey Right now.

Paul Thurat (72:44)

Yeah, yeah. Crazy.

Richard Campbell (72:47)

I'd like to be able to buy ram that be a feature.

Paul Thurat (72:51)

Yes.

Paul Thurat (72:55)

Jeez. It's like having another pandemic again.

Richard Campbell (72:59)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (73:01)

So these are not major stories, but oddly, Opera was in the news twice. I'll actually do these in chronological order, not the order they are in the notes. Because Opera has multiple browsers, which I've never completely understood, frankly, but they do. And they only make browsers. I mean, that's what they do. Opera Neon is their agenic browser. It's honestly, it's probably the best example of this kind of thing. Although I would throw, you know, perplexity, comment and possibly dia, although I don't use that one enough to know as being kind of in the rough same place. But they added if you're, you know, you have to pay for it for one thing. So you do have to pay to use this thing. But you get now the Gemini 3 and Nano Banana Pro stuff, Google Docs integration, which is amazing. And then this is also, this kind of speaks to that deep SEQ mentality where you can do a normal query, you can do a deep research, which takes, you know, a long time, depending on what it is. And they're kind of cutting it in the middle by saying we have both of those things, but we're also going to have something called one minute Deep research. Right, right. And. And it's like, look, if this is enough, then you, you can be done and it won't be as expensive, you know, and yada yada, or time consuming, etc. So I thought that was kind of an interesting.

Paul Thurat (74:23)

Kind of a thing. And when you're paying for this particular product, you know, you get access to these other models. It's not, it's not just like the, the one that Opera has. Right. Which is the Aria model. But then a couple days later they announced this thing and they never really, they didn't say this exactly this way, but they're partnering with Google to integrate Gemini into all of its web browsers. They're going to have something that they're now calling Opera AI. It's going to replace Aria. And Aria was their original kind of in browser AI solution or whatever. And as we see elsewhere, if you don't pay for Opera 1 or Opera GX, Opera, what's the comm one, Opera, whatever the minimal one's called. I can't think of it right now for some reason.

Richard Campbell (75:11)

So Flavors.

Paul Thurat (75:13)

Yeah, there's too many, I think. But.

Paul Thurat (75:16)

You'Ll get some amount per month. Right. And so. Okay, that's cool. And then obviously, if you were paying for Gemini through Google directly, you could access it in the browser and yada yada, yada. So this is kind of a very quiet about face on their part because, you know, Brave was doing this. They have their own thing. Leo. Yep. Trying to think. I think DuckDuckGo is doing this to some degree. You know, they, they're working with like mostly open source AIs. You know, these browser makers are all kind of plotting their own course. And originally Opera. Opera was pretty early on this, by the way, but they were, they're like, we're doing this stuff. And I, I think partly out of the work they were doing with Neon, they were like, you know.

Paul Thurat (75:59)

Maybe this is something we need. You know, let's go with. They partnered with Google. You know, they partnered with Google and Search already. Right. So it wasn't a big leap there, but it is not what they were doing like two weeks ago, you know, so they've kind of stepped back from that cliff, which is interesting. So we'll see what comes of that.

Richard Campbell (76:14)

You also have to wonder with any, with any company resisting this, like, sooner or later the finance guys show up and say, it doesn't matter whether you like it or not, if we don't have these terms in our product stack, we fail. Put the terms in, do what you've got to do. You know, until this bubble bursts, which I don't know, I hope they hang on. I'm doing very well with this new keynote. It's going to be hard after the bubble burst.

Paul Thurat (76:39)

I was just. You're. You did a talk that's called something to like the past 20 years of software development or something like that. Yeah, Ex. And it comes up in my YouTube feed all the time. Like, I always see this picture of you, like, with like one hand in there, you know, whatever your pose is.

Richard Campbell (76:52)

Yeah, that, that wagging look that.

Paul Thurat (76:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Professor Campbell and pontificate. Yeah. No, but I listen, I've watched this thing at least twice, whatever that's worth. Keeps going like you like this before. Keep, you know, watch it again. And I, I keep looking at this and I think to myself, man, you got to update this one now. Because, like, this is about, this is changing as we speak, maybe more dramatically than it has in, I don't know, 30 plus years.

Richard Campbell (77:19)

I mean, well, the, the joke is the first time I was asked to do an AI talk was when I was doing that work with the Vatican and I presented it to a. Of cardinals and, and I'VE got the notes from the talk from 2017 and it just seems so light hearted. We're talking about data integrity and you know the, the bias in data for criminal prosecution and things. Not the. Not g chat GPT psychosis.

Paul Thurat (77:46)

Right, Exactly. Like when. Yeah. When did AI become like a, like a, like a psychopath.

Richard Campbell (77:53)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (77:54)

You know, crazy person.

Richard Campbell (77:56)

I've now given you a tool in your phone to take your minor personality quirk and turn it into a full blown mental health crisis.

Paul Thurat (78:03)

Yeah.

Richard Campbell (78:03)

You're welcome.

Paul Thurat (78:04)

Remember how I used to doom scroll now?

Richard Campbell (78:06)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (78:07)

You're like where can I buy a gun? Where can I get pills? Like you're like yeah. You know it's, it's unbelievable.

Richard Campbell (78:13)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (78:13)

It's bizarre.

Richard Campbell (78:15)

No that you know one of the things I closed out in the keynote today with was the deep mind alpha fold story. You know just to say there is a good news. It's like look, these guys figured this thing out. It took tens of thousands of scientists 60 years to figure out 115 proteins. They finally built a model after four years that figured out 200 million and they gave them away.

Richard Campbell (78:39)

And biology has fundamentally changed. It will take decades for us to understand all the things they figured out. But that accelerated the development of the malaria vaccine. That's changed the approaches for how we deal with.

Richard Campbell (78:54)

Antibiotic resistant bacteria. Like we can't even imagine how much has happened. Like there is extraordinary success here and there's extraordinary stupid going on at the same time and extraordinary greed.

Paul Thurat (79:09)

What you say is the fart app of the AI era so far.

Leo Laporte (79:13)

ChatGPT of course.

Paul Thurat (79:16)

Well I mean like what's the like. Oh no. Grok. Grok is the farest possible use of AI.

Richard Campbell (79:22)

Now the phrase you're looking for Paul is Mecca Hitler.

Richard Campbell (79:28)

Exactly.

Paul Thurat (79:30)

But that was the antagonist in Wolfenstein 3D.

Paul Thurat (79:37)

I don't know.

Richard Campbell (79:37)

Yeah, it's.

Leo Laporte (79:39)

We couldn't live in a more interesting time.

Paul Thurat (79:42)

I know.

Richard Campbell (79:42)

You know, this is what happens.

Leo Laporte (79:43)

You talk to those cardinals eight years ago. What would it be like eight years from now? And that's think it's accelerating. I don't think it's, it's linear. I think it's actually, I think, you.

Richard Campbell (79:51)

Know Leo, I think a lot of people are highly motivated to make you believe it's going faster because that makes you make worse decisions.

Leo Laporte (79:57)

Okay. You have to hurry up and I'm really.

Richard Campbell (79:59)

Yeah, I'm ready to go back on, you know. Yeah.

Paul Thurat (80:03)

Although I think a lot of people like I don't know. I think I do. I think I want to be left out.

Leo Laporte (80:06)

I think it's exciting.

Paul Thurat (80:07)

I have the fear of being included.

Leo Laporte (80:09)

It's really going fast. Look at Nanny Banana, you know, like.

Paul Thurat (80:14)

Fear of AI, you know?

Richard Campbell (80:16)

Yeah, they. I'm not going to deny their improvements were a long way from Will Smith eating spaghetti, but it's not actually.

Leo Laporte (80:25)

We haven't fixed is our. It's our bandwidth issue.

Paul Thurat (80:28)

There goes that transcontinental cable. The Russians found it.

Leo Laporte (80:31)

That's one thing we have to work on. Hey, I do want to take a little break here. Are you ready for the Xbox segment or do we complete our AI segment?

Paul Thurat (80:40)

Yeah, we're good.

Richard Campbell (80:41)

All right, we're there.

Leo Laporte (80:42)

Let's do Xbox next in just a little bit. You're watching Windows Weekly. Paul Thurat is in Makunji. You can find him, though, anywhere in the World@therot.com and of course, his books@leanpub.com Richard Campbell is a global traveler. Vilnius today. Where tomorrow? Where's next?

Richard Campbell (81:03)

Pennsylvania next week.

Leo Laporte (81:05)

Oh, Slowly making exotic town of Makunji.

Richard Campbell (81:10)

Oh, no. The craziest part of this whole thing is after we finish on the 10th, on the 11th, I'm actually flying home, and there's an event in Vancouver that wanted me to do the closing keynote, and so I've literally bumped up the flight. So I land at 1:30 to do a 3:30 keynote. And as I said to the Hank at the time, it's like, dude, this is flying awfully close to the sun, like, very. And he's like, I want it.

Paul Thurat (81:37)

The last time you flew home from here, there was a global pandemic.

Richard Campbell (81:41)

Yeah. I was put immediately into quarantine.

Paul Thurat (81:43)

So.

Richard Campbell (81:44)

Yeah. So I don't know if it'll work.

Leo Laporte (81:47)

Out, but I want to hear that story. Well, you know what? Save that for Monday. We can talk about that.

Paul Thurat (81:51)

This will be better for sure.

Richard Campbell (81:53)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (81:53)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (81:55)

All right.

Leo Laporte (81:55)

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Leo Laporte (86:42)

TWIT it's the best. Gotta try it.

Paul Thurat (86:46)

Bitwarden.

Leo Laporte (86:48)

Now, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for the best Xbox segment in the world with Mr.

Richard Campbell (86:56)

I miss our theme song. Ah. A little Halo glow, you know. Oh, there it is. I'm delighted.

Leo Laporte (87:06)

Did you see the. The creator of the guy who started Bungie was given a talk. I don't know if maybe I should see before I say this, if it's in your. No, it's not. He was given a little talk.

Paul Thurat (87:18)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (87:19)

About.

Leo Laporte (87:21)

You may not remember, but I vividly remember that before Halo was Marathon, Bungie's first game. And it was a Mac game.

Paul Thurat (87:27)

It was like a doomsday game. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (87:29)

It looked. You know what, it looked a lot like Marathon. But.

Paul Thurat (87:34)

But what? I.

Leo Laporte (87:35)

We used to play like crazy on the site. Everybody would play it. It was so much fun.

Paul Thurat (87:39)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (87:40)

And then apparently Microsoft came to him and said, we are not letting Steve Jobs have Halo.

Paul Thurat (87:47)

They had. There was a Mac world where they showed. They showed it because it was coming to the Mac.

Leo Laporte (87:53)

Exactly.

Paul Thurat (87:54)

Because they. That's what they did. They made Mac games and the Microsoft.

Leo Laporte (87:58)

And the Xbox guy said, yeah.

Richard Campbell (88:00)

No.

Leo Laporte (88:03)

How big does this check have to be?

Paul Thurat (88:06)

That's the sound of the Microsoft.

Richard Campbell (88:10)

Here comes the pile of money.

Leo Laporte (88:12)

I loved it. Steve Jobs ain't getting this one. They said, yeah, but you know what? That is Halo, I think, still very much considered the key franchise for Xbox, right?

Paul Thurat (88:25)

It is. But, you know, I, My son was, you know, home over the holidays and I was like, mark, let me ask you a question. I said, what would Microsoft or Xbox whatever have to do to make you play Halo again? And he's like, I don't. He's like, I don't think they could. It's over at the. There was a. The first. Well, two, three games, we'll say three games. Ish. There was something magical going on there, right? They did, they did a lot. Right. There was, There was a really nice, like the swelling of the music. Like you're running along, like heading to the next thing. It's like, like it just really kind of worked well.

Leo Laporte (89:00)

And then, and then they fired the Bungee team.

Paul Thurat (89:03)

Yeah, well, they, well, first they, you know, they, they did multiplayer with Halo 2. That was amazing. They based Xbox Live literally on what they had done for Halo 2. There was some real, you know, action going on there. It was really good. And then.

Paul Thurat (89:19)

Obviously need more than the one game, you know. And Microsoft has had, well, they had historically like Flight Simulator, but that time they weren't doing much with that or you know, the Forza type games and kind of smaller titles that were doing pretty good or whatever. But I, Yeah, at some point it just kind of ran out of. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. But I, I do know that from Halo 4 on, I just, I always looked and I tried and I.

Richard Campbell (89:49)

I.

Paul Thurat (89:49)

Don'T know, I just couldn't get into it. I don't know, like even. It's not as. It's not like Zork exactly, but, you know, when this remastered new version of the first game comes out again, 4K, et cetera, of course I'm going to take a look at it. But I've also played this thing like 20 times. Like, yeah, what am I going to get out of this? Like, I don't. I'm not sure there is anything, you know, like, at this point, like, I don't know.

Richard Campbell (90:11)

Nostalgia will only carry you so far.

Paul Thurat (90:17)

Yeah, well.

Paul Thurat (90:21)

I don't know. I.

Leo Laporte (90:22)

Anyway, it was a. It was a great game in its time.

Paul Thurat (90:25)

No, it really was.

Leo Laporte (90:26)

It really superseded. I think that's. That's, that's what happened.

Paul Thurat (90:29)

Yeah, Call of Duty took the multiplayer stuff away and Then you know, it's had its own competition obviously from battle royale type games. More recently Fortnite, Fortnite, etc. But yeah, I, and look, I'm. What am I complaining about? It's like Halo is exactly the same thing all the time. It's like, yeah, what is Call of Duty? I mean like, it's literally like it couldn't be more the same except they charge you 70 bucks a year for it now, so whatever. But I don't know if you, if you're in the Call of Duty.

Paul Thurat (91:03)

Call of Duty Mobile is having this huge anniversary.

Paul Thurat (91:08)

Like an end of season kind of thing. It's supposed to be huge.

Paul Thurat (91:13)

I don't know. There's gonna be a new games type which is kind of a big deal. So they have multiplayer, they have battle royale. There was a brief moment in time, I think where they had Warzone as like a standalone mobile game. But now it's part of Call of Duty Mobile and there's like a third game type coming in. It's kind of like an extraction based thing.

Paul Thurat (91:34)

So I mean, I'll look at it, but I don't know. Jeez, I don't know. I just do the same thing all over again and hate myself for it in the next morning. But.

Paul Thurat (91:44)

But if you're not like, if you're not as stupid as I am. Game Pass is, you know, churning again. It's the new month, so we get a bunch of new titles coming. A couple of the big ones like that recent Indiana Jones movie is in there. The Indiana Jones and the Great Circle.

Leo Laporte (92:01)

Digging a Hole.

Paul Thurat (92:04)

I don't, well, sorry, I don't know about digging a hole, but the.

Paul Thurat (92:08)

Indiana Jones was available on day one at the time for the Game Pass subscription. But maybe subscriptions back then that supported it. Now it's been a year, so it's coming to premium print. Like the normal. Yeah, like the other tier. So that's, you know, so if you. Yeah, this is the new and great.

Richard Campbell (92:27)

Circle was a heck of a game. Like the, the characters person they had playing. Indiana Jones did an amazing job. Like it really was impressive. So yeah, this is. I'm surprised it's not an ultimate only title. Like it was.

Paul Thurat (92:41)

It was at launch but now it's a year later so it's coming now.

Richard Campbell (92:43)

It'S a year later so it's down to premium at least.

Paul Thurat (92:46)

I mean the big one obviously is Spray Paint Simulator.

Richard Campbell (92:49)

Oh no, no, no, no. A game about digging a hole is the big one.

Paul Thurat (92:52)

Clearly. Brats. I'm really looking forward to the new Bratz game.

Paul Thurat (92:56)

It's possible this Death Howl. Death Howl.

Paul Thurat (93:01)

Thing might be. That might be interesting. I don't know that one. I'm not sure about that one, but maybe. I don't know. I'm just gonna keep doing the same thing and keep painting myself. It's fine.

Leo Laporte (93:12)

Spray paint simulator is a relaxing, satisfying game. Invites you to build your own painting business from the ground up. Meet with quirky clients in story mode and take on each job right from the start. Paint everything. Rooms, homes, cars, bridges, even giant robots. Unlock free spray mode and play alone or with a friend to make the entire town your canvas. Yeah.

Richard Campbell (93:39)

Maybe didn't give you the option to play with yourself. Like, I don't know what that's about.

Paul Thurat (93:44)

Just.

Leo Laporte (93:44)

They scream with yourself.

Paul Thurat (93:46)

You don't need a computer for that one, my friend.

Leo Laporte (93:51)

Wow.

Paul Thurat (93:52)

I know. I'm sorry.

Leo Laporte (93:53)

You know, that's. I got to say, though, that's my kind of game. Game Low stress.

Paul Thurat (93:57)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (93:57)

Lose.

Richard Campbell (93:58)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (93:58)

Spray paint simulator. You can't.

Paul Thurat (94:00)

You can't.

Leo Laporte (94:01)

You can only win.

Richard Campbell (94:02)

I think. I think I just go directly to graffiti mode. Like, that's what you want to do.

Leo Laporte (94:06)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (94:08)

Just set it on some course and sit in the front and watch the scenery go by.

Richard Campbell (94:12)

Like, I mean, watch it go.

Paul Thurat (94:13)

How little do you want to do in a game? You know?

Leo Laporte (94:16)

Does it have that shake sound that when you shake it?

Paul Thurat (94:19)

No. It does. We worked with artisans to get that sound exactly right. I want it.

Richard Campbell (94:26)

They've modeled the different ball and can combination so you get exactly the right sound.

Paul Thurat (94:33)

Yep.

Leo Laporte (94:33)

Sounds like fun.

Paul Thurat (94:34)

What a world.

Leo Laporte (94:35)

You know, I. I did, like, a game called radio back in the day. I don't know if you remember that game.

Paul Thurat (94:41)

What is it called?

Leo Laporte (94:42)

Jet Set Radio. Did you ever play that?

Paul Thurat (94:43)

No.

Leo Laporte (94:44)

Oh, yeah. That was. You did little. You were skateboarding, and. Here, let's do some spray painting here. No, I was like, what's.

Paul Thurat (94:52)

I thought my wife turned on an Xbox. I'm like, what that sound?

Leo Laporte (94:56)

Oh, I. You know, it looks like it's an airbrush tool. It's not.

Richard Campbell (95:00)

We're taping off.

Leo Laporte (95:01)

Listen to that music, man. Wow.

Richard Campbell (95:03)

Oh, there you go. There. It looks like some. Some. Some graffiti.

Paul Thurat (95:06)

They really spent a lot of the graphics.

Richard Campbell (95:08)

There's a Look.

Leo Laporte (95:09)

Get prepared.

Paul Thurat (95:11)

We use the latest in super Nintendo graphics technology.

Leo Laporte (95:14)

Who is this for?

Paul Thurat (95:16)

Who?

Leo Laporte (95:16)

I mean.

Richard Campbell (95:17)

Oh, no.

Leo Laporte (95:18)

Who is this for? Oh, how satisfying.

Paul Thurat (95:20)

Like, daddy, I would to, like. Like to play Call of Duty. It's like, all right, I'm gonna give you a game that has a gun in it.

Leo Laporte (95:24)

If you love Power Wash Pro, you'll love Spray Paint simulator.

Paul Thurat (95:31)

Oh boy.

Richard Campbell (95:32)

Wow.

Richard Campbell (95:34)

Wow.

Leo Laporte (95:35)

Okay. I'm glad that I'm. You know what? I might re. Re up on the Xbox.

Richard Campbell (95:40)

I'm enlightened now. It's like, yeah, I am. I am changed.

Leo Laporte (95:43)

It's time for me to sign up again.

Paul Thurat (95:45)

I think I'm 10% dumber now know.

Leo Laporte (95:49)

Is that possible, Paul?

Paul Thurat (95:50)

I know it's hard to calculate actually, but I don't know.

Paul Thurat (95:56)

Of more interest perhaps. I was fascinated to read this interview with the Verge that got an engineer from Valve, a guy who's worked on Proton, the compatibility layer that brings Windows games to Steam OS and has worked in Steam os. Steam Deck.

Paul Thurat (96:13)

Was talking about ARM as a platform and they are porting SteamOS and the proton emulator or compatibility layer to ARM and it's requiring a separate layer called Fex, which is sort of like. Well, is an emulator actually. And this will. It's separate from what Microsoft's doing obviously in Windows 11 on Army. But it's one of those things where like Valve has actually secretly been funding this for years and hasn't said anything about it publicly. And it's one of those, you know, we'll see what happens. Like this is kind of one of those weird little things that like Valve does. Like it's like we feel like there's a market for this right now. We see it as like lower end portable devices that you know, would be under Steam Deck, if that makes sense. But we also based on the success we've had with, with Proton or. Yeah, Proton On Linux and SteamOS.

Paul Thurat (97:10)

We know we can do. We, we're doing it like it's working, like it's going to work. And it's possible he very specifically called out like he expects we're going to see portable and even desktop steam OS based PCs on ARM, you know.

Richard Campbell (97:23)

Yeah, no, I want to see the Gabe Cube is the ARM chipset.

Paul Thurat (97:27)

Right, yeah, that makes sense. Super interesting to me. But he also like maybe this is common knowledge. I just, I really, I guess I don't really follow this per se, but Proton is essentially like an experimental version of wine, you know, that kind of classic Linux technology for, you know, running Windows apps. But it's obviously optimized for games and you know, optimized for SteamOS specifically, which is like this Arch Linux kind of based thing. But I guess this thing, they feed back all of the improvements they make into wine. So it improves wine for everybody or anybody uses Linux or whatever. And I didn't actually understand those things were related in any way. Like I said, maybe this was common knowledge, but they asked him about Prism, which is the Microsoft thing. He's like, yeah, I don't actually know anything about that. Like it's, they're doing their own thing. It's, it's fine, it's all good. But.

Paul Thurat (98:18)

This is, this is very interesting to me because I. Well, you know, for obvious reasons I really think ARM is just the future of everything. And it's pretty clear at some point Valve was like, look, we got to get going on this. Like, like, yeah, let's. Because, you know, the, the beauty of steamos and Prison, or Proton rather is that you, you don't have to ask anything of developers. No one's changing code. It's just works, you know, and I guess it's done pretty well for them. And they're like, let's do the same thing on arm, you know, like, why not? Like, and these could be essentially like it may be. Well, probably it'd be Linux I guess, like Steam OS essentially. But, but it could benefit Android and definitely Windows on ARM as well. So it's interesting.

Richard Campbell (99:01)

I mean you got to think any, the next generation.

Richard Campbell (99:07)

Augmented reality headsets, things are all going to be ARM based too.

Paul Thurat (99:11)

Yeah, right.

Leo Laporte (99:12)

For battery.

Richard Campbell (99:13)

Everything you do to get yourself positioned in hardware, like get this hardware moving on platforms people understand. So new platforms can emerge.

Paul Thurat (99:20)

That's right. And actually they have a thing or they have one that's on the way out and they have a new one coming in that's like a VR headset of some kind, whatever it is. But Sam, it's, it's basically what would typically be like a Linux platform. It's arm, you know, Snapdragon probably or Mediatek or whatever it is, doesn't really matter. But it's a, some ARM based platform.

Paul Thurat (99:40)

Yeah. Get the stuff running natively on there. Like that's. Since this is good, this is going to float boats. I like this for sure.

Richard Campbell (99:48)

But you know, and in the end this is just them making their platform bigger so that more developers come to them, so their catalog gets larger.

Paul Thurat (99:59)

You don't even have to track them. They're like, we've just done this for you. It's just going to work. You already love us on Windows or whatever. All game developers, of course, think of Steam at least and we can just make.

Richard Campbell (100:14)

Linux gaming coming true like in a big, big way. And that's huge.

Paul Thurat (100:20)

Yeah.

Richard Campbell (100:23)

And it, you know, they, they've done a good job of packaging up Making their company more competitive and successful by being beneficial to the community as a whole.

Paul Thurat (100:34)

Yeah, yeah. No, there's definitely an idealism to Valve that I kind of like. Yeah, you're a little. I mean, you know, Gabe Newell's kind of a weirdo, but it's just like. Well, right. I mean, he's.

Richard Campbell (100:48)

Right.

Paul Thurat (100:49)

Yeah.

Richard Campbell (100:49)

You talk about a bubble. Right. Like they're quietly living in their happy little world where they all make a ton of money.

Paul Thurat (100:58)

Seriously. Half Life 3, anything, anything. And they're like, you've heard the rumor.

Leo Laporte (101:03)

That the Valve, the Steam Machine is going to be PC priced. It's not going to be console priced.

Paul Thurat (101:10)

Right.

Leo Laporte (101:10)

You think that changes the equation?

Richard Campbell (101:13)

Sure it does to some degree, but. But it also like they've never been one to do stuff cheaply like that. It's not a surprise. It's fully in character and those who want to buy it will buy it. And if price is a matter for you, you wouldn't be here in the first place.

Paul Thurat (101:28)

Yep. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (101:29)

I mean people buy consoles if they want to save money and.

Leo Laporte (101:34)

The market for this is PC gamers who want to sit at their couch.

Paul Thurat (101:37)

Yeah. I don't understand why they haven't revved the Steam Deck. Like I feel like, like this should have been accompanied by a Steam Deck rev, you know.

Richard Campbell (101:46)

Yeah, but that wouldn't surprise me if after this is out and it's working, then there is a new Steam Deck. But I would also think, I don't even know why you went with the existing chipsets. Why wouldn't you hold out for arm? Well, the next team deck ought to be arm.

Paul Thurat (102:02)

Okay. Yeah. Right.

Leo Laporte (102:06)

Steam Deck, yes. Not Steam Machine though, right?

Paul Thurat (102:08)

Maybe.

Richard Campbell (102:08)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (102:09)

Well, but he expects to see Steam Machine on ARM as well at some point. This is thing I've not experienced when I was still in Mexico and Qualcomm announced this new control panel thing for Snapdragon. And it's like it will look at the games you've installed in this computer and optimize them for the platform automatically. And the thing I had in Mexico is the lowest end Snapdragon get. It didn't actually work on there. So when I got home I was like, all right, I'm going to install a couple games on Surface Laptop 2 and 7. Sorry. And which is, you know, one of the better chips. And yeah, I mean it works like it's. It kind of takes a little bit of the guesswork out. I mean I can't say that it competes with like an AMD Ryzen 7 Pro with you know, whatever Radeon, whatever it is, 680 graphics or whatever. But. But it's quieter, you know like it is quieter. It's battery life.

Richard Campbell (103:04)

I expect the battery life be longer. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Thurat (103:06)

I mean it has some. You know but it's. But I'm not playing Call of Duty on it either. Right. Like it's not. I don't know that I would. I haven't tried. I don't. It's not gonna work well.

Leo Laporte (103:15)

And Apple's shown that an ARM chip can be a powerful desktop chip. It doesn't have. It's not just.

Paul Thurat (103:21)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (103:24)

By the way, big breaking story that just came in over the transom. Thanks to Joe and our discord. Alan Dye, who is the legendary designer at Apple number two to Jony I've and runs Apple's design has now left Apple for Meta.

Paul Thurat (103:41)

Yeah. Another company with great taste. That makes sense.

Leo Laporte (103:45)

Well obviously we know how to expend checkbook.

Paul Thurat (103:47)

It's like the Michelin award winning Cordon Bleu chef has moved to McDonald's.

Leo Laporte (103:53)

It is a little like that, isn't it?

Paul Thurat (103:54)

No, it really is like wow, that's crazy.

Leo Laporte (103:59)

But you know, I mean they must have made a pitch that we want to do something some. I mean he's a designer. We want to do something. Oh, it looks great.

Paul Thurat (104:08)

This. I can tell you what the pitch was. It was.

Leo Laporte (104:12)

Back it up.

Richard Campbell (104:13)

Here comes the Metatron.

Leo Laporte (104:16)

The universal sound of the money truck backing up.

Paul Thurat (104:20)

We're in the money. We're, you know.

Leo Laporte (104:22)

Yeah, this is Apple has to just be bummed by the Apple.

Paul Thurat (104:27)

This is an untold story because there's such a company. But I. So many people have been coached from this company recently.

Leo Laporte (104:34)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (104:34)

It's man with last like who's going to be left? It's going to be Tim Cook and Craig figured basically. It's very strange. I don't know what's going on there.

Leo Laporte (104:47)

Anyway. Yeah, I mean it's not. No, this isn't an Apple show nor is it a Meta show. But I think this is another symptom of something.

Richard Campbell (104:55)

I don't know.

Paul Thurat (104:56)

I don't know what the money madness that is gripping our industry right now.

Leo Laporte (104:59)

Crazy. Yeah. And it's all AI. It's all about AI. I mean Alan Dye is not going to. He wants to make the blue page insecurity.

Richard Campbell (105:08)

We don't know what happens next. So go get the best people you can.

Paul Thurat (105:11)

Plus you guys are all worried about job losses. This guy just got a new job. What's Your problem?

Leo Laporte (105:14)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (105:16)

Look at our payroll go up by billions.

Paul Thurat (105:19)

I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. It's. Whatever. So stupid.

Leo Laporte (105:25)

Yeah, I don't know if it says more about Meta or more about Apple.

Leo Laporte (105:31)

It's.

Paul Thurat (105:31)

I like the phrase. It says less about meta.

Leo Laporte (105:34)

I think so.

Paul Thurat (105:35)

Because the less said about Meta, the better. Better.

Leo Laporte (105:41)

All right, we're gonna take a break and then get ready. We turn a page and head to the back of the book. Always the best. I always go to the back of the magazine first, before magazine. What's that, Daddy? Well, back before the Internet, we used to. We used to put information on dead trees. Addie, that doesn't seem very efficient. No, it wasn't.

Paul Thurat (106:05)

We couldn't hear their screams. It was okay.

Leo Laporte (106:08)

But afterwards, you could make some fine bedroom furniture with it. Our show today, brought to you by the thing that replaced the dead trees. Framer.

Leo Laporte (106:19)

Still, if you're. I mean, look, if you're still jumping between tools just to update your website, I gotta tell you about something very exciting from Framer. You know Framer, of course, a great place for designing a website. But now Framer unifies design, CMS and publishing on one canvas all together. And that's frankly where they belong. No handoff, no import export, no hassle. Everything you need to design and publish in one place. Framer already built the fastest way to publish beautiful production ready websites. And it's now redefining how we design for the web with the recent launch of Design Pages, a free canvas based design tool. Framer is more than a site builder. It's a true all in one design platform. From social assets to campaign visuals, to vectors and icons, all the way to a live site.

Leo Laporte (107:13)

Framer is where ideas go live, start to finish. Let me say this again, Framers, this is a free, free, full feature design tool. Think unlimited projects free. Unlimited pages free. Unlimited collaborators, free. And everything you need. Vector graphics, 3D transforms, gradients, wireframes. Everything you need to design, totally free, totally in the same space, in the same page. Framers, your entire workflow in one place. No importing from Figma, no messy HTML. It's faster, it's cleaner, it's more efficient. And you can design more than just web websites. Which is sensible because while you're doing one, you should also create social assets. Campaign visuals, icons, site resources. You can do it all inside the tool. No switching back and forth. Framer stands above the others because it's not merely a site builder. Framer is a true design tool that also publishes Professional production ready sites ready Design iterate and publish all in one tool. Start creating for free at framer.com design use the code WW for a free month of Framer Pro. That's framer.com design. The promo code www.framer.com design promo code www. Rules and restrictions may apply. Brilliant Framer.

Leo Laporte (108:42)

Back of the book time. That means I think we kick things off with Mr. P.T. paul Little Polly Thurat.

Leo Laporte (108:49)

And with his tip of the week.

Paul Thurat (108:53)

So I have nothing but tips. I don't have any app picks, but I have a series of tips.

Leo Laporte (108:59)

Tips of the week.

Paul Thurat (109:00)

Kind of a looking ahead, looking back and then Microsoft ugly sweaters. Because, you know, why not, Oh, I.

Leo Laporte (109:06)

Forgot my ugly sweater. I'll wear it on Monday. I'll wear it on Monday.

Paul Thurat (109:10)

So yeah, I would just in the same sense, like I, I wasn't intending to write about like these AI editorials. I, I wrote it like I, I started writing this thing and it turned into like a screed against like rental software. Like I, I, I feel very strongly about paying for things that I use. I'm, I, you know, I, I make things, I'd like to be paid for it. Like I get it and, but I also feel like we're on this kind of treadmill thing and it's used to just be streaming services but now it's software too. And I don't like software that doesn't give you a choice. Like, you know, we think about Microsoft 365 and officer at least it's sort of a choice. But like on the Adobe side, like they've moved to a 100% you don't own anything model. And I just, I don't know, this is rubbing me the wrong way. But this is a good time of year for people to start looking at these things, you know, that they're paying for all the time. And it's like, are you getting the value out of this thing? Because you know, in this age of insertification, everything is just, just so terrible. So, so, so terrible.

Paul Thurat (110:15)

So it's not like a, like I was, you know, one point last year I was like, I will not pay for AI. You know, take. It was like kind of a hard stance. It's like asterisks, you know, so it's like not like I am not going to pay for things that, you know, that I'm gonna, Of course I am. I pay for lots of these things. But like as this stuff all kind of falls apart, you know, you surprise other story recently where Netflix is not letting people cast to a smart TV that has a remote anymore. Yeah. And it's like. And they're like, oh, no, it's a better use experience. The thing is a remote, you want to do that, you're like, okay, but it's in a hotel room and I don't want to sign into my account on there or I'm at a friend's house or I'm traveling at an Airbnb or whatever it is. Like, what are you talking about? You're just. What you're doing is we, we have. I called it a. What's the term I use for this? It was like a, an insertification, force, multiplier occurring where you're a sports fan, you live in the United States or Canada probably, and you want to watch your favorite football team maybe, or whatever the sport is at that time of year. And it's like, what is it on? Good luck. Spin the wheel, Bob. There's like 13 different places this thing could be. My son was here over the holidays and he was like, if we actually had to pay for every one of these services, we'd be like a thousand bucks a month. He's like, you don't. You never know where a game is anymore. And so, you know, Netflix plays a role in that. Right? Like, Netflix is one of those companies that is like paying for live sports events now and then taking away the ability for someone to come to your house who's not paying for Netflix and cast to your TV so you can watch it together as a group. Right? That's what they're doing. Like, that's literally the point of it. And it sounds like a small thing and it is a small thing, but it's one of a thousand small things. And it's one of those kind of death by a thousand cuts type things. And with some exceptions, I mean, obviously there's still good stuff on Netflix that's new, but it's a lot of crap too, right? Like a lot of crap. A lot of really good looking crap, which is kind of the new thing on Netflix, which is, I don't know, I just. It's getting a little tedious. And so I think this is just a good time to kind of step back and.

Richard Campbell (112:15)

Well, yeah, it's also turn that monthly bill model on to your favor. You're going to travel for the month. Cancel everything, you know, because oddly enough, they'll send you emails to restart everything.

Paul Thurat (112:27)

Yeah. I think I made this point earlier when we were talking about chat GPT, but that, that's that's actually a liability for them. So the way that, like, a company like Netflix gets around this a little bit to some degree is like, they'll have some big new show, like Wednesday. Well, maybe actually Wednesday. I don't think they split up. But, like, Stranger Things is coming back for their final season, and they split it into two halves even though the whole thing's ready. Right. Because they don't want people to only pay for a month and then leave again. Right. But this is the thing. Like, you're the consumer. You can leave if you want. You. You can wait until the whole thing's there, pay for the month, and get the hell out of there and do something else. Like, this is. There's no reason for you to get stuck in this black hole. But we all do it. I mean, a lot of us do it, certainly. So this is something to kind of look at.

Richard Campbell (113:12)

I'm very much in a place now where it's like, let's just turn it off and see if we miss it.

Paul Thurat (113:17)

Yeah, right. I. We're still, you know, we have these. We have two kids, and they're still semi dependent, depending on which one we're talking about. And every once in a while, I'll be like, hey, these are the services we're paying for. What are you guys using? Actually, you know, every once in a while, I get a nice surprise. Like, Mark will say something like, oh, my. We have roommates. And one of them pays for Netflix. We don't even use your Netflix account anymore. Like, nice. But then I get these things where, like, I get home, I go to Netflix, and it's like, it looks like you're not signing in from your home location. I'm like, really? This is my home location? What are you talking about? So I can do a code, and it's like, okay, you get to do this for two weeks. I'm like, I live here. What are you talking about?

Richard Campbell (114:00)

Don't set time limits on me.

Paul Thurat (114:02)

Yeah, it's not good. You can do this to my daughter if you want, but you're not doing it to me.

Richard Campbell (114:06)

But I don't know. I think one of the things I made. The comment I made when I canceled Netflix was, you keep telling me I'm not me. And so, bye.

Paul Thurat (114:14)

Yeah, exactly. Right?

Leo Laporte (114:16)

But if you, like, they care, Richard.

Paul Thurat (114:19)

But no, but that. But that's a good point. They don't care. But you know what?

Richard Campbell (114:23)

But they send me emails every week now.

Leo Laporte (114:25)

Made you feel better?

Paul Thurat (114:27)

No. Do it for you.

Leo Laporte (114:29)

Do it for you.

Paul Thurat (114:29)

Do it for you. Don't worry about you. You're not going to impact these guys.

Leo Laporte (114:33)

No, they don't care.

Richard Campbell (114:35)

But I love their new automated email. We want you backstream. It makes me happy.

Leo Laporte (114:40)

So I, I've never canceled Netflix, so.

Paul Thurat (114:42)

I don't know what that. Yeah, no, I've never tried this one either. But I, I can tell you I keep. I give more money all the time. And then they want to buy, like, what's it called? Warner Brothers Discovery.

Leo Laporte (114:53)

Yeah, they're trying.

Paul Thurat (114:55)

The way they're selling it is you will save money, the consumers will save money. I'm like, I don't know if you know how Netflix does business, but that's not what's. That's not how that's going to work. I suppose for a short period of time there'll be like a bundle of HBO and Netflix that will be less than the two of those things together. It's still going to be like 35 bucks a month or something. Like, it's not going to be. No one's saving money.

Leo Laporte (115:18)

No.

Paul Thurat (115:19)

So I, Yeah, these, these things are all terrible. And these things are all now giving us these recaps. Things that. I don't know if you've been paying attention to this, but, like, there's more and more services doing this now. Like, this has become like a big thing.

Leo Laporte (115:31)

Oh, at the end of the year.

Paul Thurat (115:32)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (115:33)

Here's what.

Richard Campbell (115:33)

You guys recapping it now.

Paul Thurat (115:35)

Yeah. Let me tell you what. Like, I don't think I'm gonna get a YouTube recap because I use my Workspace account. I don't. This is some things that don't happen. But I can tell you what. My what? There is no AI powerful enough to make sense of my brain by looking at what I watch on YouTube because it literally is basically three things. Well, four things, two of which are related. Like. Like scary videos that are never actually scary of things caught on door cams and stuff like that. Funny videos of cats and dogs who love babies and have a good time with other animals. True crime documentary things like 48 hours or whatever. And then tech videos. Yeah. So figure me out, world. Go ahead. Good luck. You know, like, tell me what my re. What was my recap look like? It's like you look like a serial killer is what it looks like. Like, okay.

Paul Thurat (116:25)

I don't know, like, how do you make sense of me from that? But YouTube Music, Apple Music, Spotify, etc, Google Photos today came out one the second year in a row they've done that. That's actually really Cool. That's a. That's a real. That's an obvious one. But if you have any of these services, definitely something to look at. I. I spend so much time trying to find new music and my.

Paul Thurat (116:50)

Four, three or four most listened to like albums or whatever are all oldies things now. It's like the Billy Joel seven hour thing that he did, you know, that was awesome. And I've listened to multiple times. It's like Sammy Hagar, who I don't even like that much, but put on a live album of all Van Halen songs, which is unbelievably good. Like a Def Leppard live album. And then apparently I listen to a lot of Chicago. No, because I wouldn't be posting about that. But what the heck is happening? And like, you see this thing and you're like.

Paul Thurat (117:24)

Oh, you know. But whatever. So whatever.

Leo Laporte (117:26)

I. I like your Google Photos 2025 rollout. That's pretty festive.

Paul Thurat (117:32)

Yeah. So that I. I had to. The email that they sent me or whatever, the picture that was, there was a picture of me and Steven Rose. That's not.

Leo Laporte (117:43)

That's not good.

Paul Thurat (117:44)

Wow. Yeah. Richard knows. And I was like, I can't use that picture. I gotta find one. I did take more pictures of my wife than I took a Stephen Robbins this year. Thank God. That's a progress. More pictures of. Than one of my children. And I'm not going to tell you anyone because that's what is happening. But yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (118:05)

So this is not such a good idea to look back, is it?

Paul Thurat (118:07)

It's. Well, how much insight do you want? Because, you know, it's like, you see stuff. You're like, okay, yep, no, I did do this. What the hell's wrong with me? It's like, it's like. Anyway, it's kind of fun just to look at, but. And if you're really not clear on what the hell is wrong with me, definitely go to look at the Microsoft ugly sweaters this year because. Yikes. There are multiple sweaters.

Paul Thurat (118:34)

There. There is a Zune brown sweater, which actually, I have to say no. Yep, there is one. Should I source them at. Someone had a headline of that's weird. They're not all on the same page. There's like. There's one that's like all these Microsoft logos from over time. And it's like there's a Co Pilot logo and it's like even the ugly sweater cannot escape from Co Pilot. You know, Co Pilot. This thing doesn't actually have all.

Leo Laporte (119:00)

The sweater is horrific.

Paul Thurat (119:05)

I know. It's the best. Yeah. Wow. I'm sorry, this the page I linked.

Leo Laporte (119:10)

To some T shirts here.

Paul Thurat (119:11)

Yeah, there's a bunch of them. Yeah, there's actually a bunch of these sweaters.

Leo Laporte (119:14)

I wonder if they have a cat if it's in a category.

Paul Thurat (119:16)

So I can find it here.

Richard Campbell (119:17)

Yeah, I just wonder if I can get one delivered to Paul's place before I get there.

Paul Thurat (119:22)

So terrible.

Leo Laporte (119:23)

There's only three in the holiday thing. Oh, these are the newest.

Leo Laporte (119:28)

Youth holiday. There's an Xbox. I, you know, the Zune. I think they're going, they're going big on that.

Paul Thurat (119:33)

Yeah, the zoom one's good though. But there's, there's, there are more. I don't know why I thought they were all there. I'm sorry. But yeah, there's some, there's some good ones this year. Wow.

Richard Campbell (119:44)

Amazing.

Paul Thurat (119:45)

Yep. Brown. Zoom. Brown. That's all I'm saying.

Richard Campbell (119:48)

Brown. There you go.

Paul Thurat (119:49)

It's the color of my eyes.

Leo Laporte (119:51)

Special.

Leo Laporte (119:55)

Well, on that note, maybe we could save this show with a little-of.net rocks little run as radio Mr. Richard Camp.

Richard Campbell (120:05)

There you go. Brought back Nikki Chappell this week for show 1013. Talking specifically about her M365 copilot data readiness checklist. That's a mouthful. But really what it was is dealing with this. You must have your data as state in order problem. And so Nikki's really organized all the key information about how you go about making it possible to get M365 copilot turned on inside your organization without creating a data crisis. So tagging and monitoring and like all of the essential steps you kind of need to do. And we actually dove into this. Hey, let's go pick an area in your organization. Don't do everything. Just say, let's focus on HR data and just make that available to M365 Copilot. And so just, you know, she's, she's a consultant who's done this for a bunch of organizations now. And so she's sort of matured the set of practices that can give us some confidence that we can get there with these tools and not create a huge mess that you're going to, you know, potentially have a career limiting event over.

Richard Campbell (121:13)

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Paul Thurat (121:15)

It was good. Let me think.

Leo Laporte (121:17)

What could, what else would, what could we do that would make this show something special?

Leo Laporte (121:26)

You don't have any Lithuanian vodka there, do you?

Richard Campbell (121:29)

No, I don't. But there is an awful lot of vodka here without A doubt. I, I, we've been in Lithuania before and I've had a few different things. But I went back and when I got here on, on Sunday and, and looked through like what are the alcohols of Lithuania? And they're famous for very strong beers, for ales and porters and as well as meads. And if you make mead then you're probably going to distill it. They call it here Midas or distilled mead. Saman is a distilled rye, but it's the clear stuff. So really you could call it a kind of vodka. Actually this is good wine growing country and so they have a bunch of fruit liqueurs that are a byproduct of that called they call Denava.

Leo Laporte (122:11)

And then wine was invented in that region.

Paul Thurat (122:13)

Right.

Leo Laporte (122:13)

Georgia.

Richard Campbell (122:14)

Well, I would go more south than that. When you talk about some of the really old grapes down in Romania, Bulgaria, that area with the, with the Thracians, if you really want to go back, Thracians did it.

Leo Laporte (122:25)

Yes.

Richard Campbell (122:26)

But I managed to find a bottle of Starka and Stark is aged rye whiskey, which, you know, what I notice is that there's a bunch of different rye based alcohols here. Like why is, is rye so big in Lithuania? So there's a reason for it. And I ended up reading a couple of scientific papers on the evolution of, of cereal grains propagating across Europe going back to the Neolithic times, because I'm prone to that sort of thing, as you may be aware.

Richard Campbell (123:02)

So let's go all the way back to the emergence of the trachalias, which is wheat, barley and rye all came from the Fertile Crescent, all our variations on the same plant. These were annual plants. They were actually particularly good at growing rapidly into regions of plains that had burned. So unlike normal perennial plants that grow slowly and reproduce over and over again and last for a long time, these were quick plants. They grew rapidly. They built seed pods high up on their stalks that then burst and scattered the seeds into the wind to expand their growth area. Many of them have horns on them so that after they landed on the ground as they dried, they would naturally twist and bury themselves. So the plant itself would actually grow more than once in a given year to increase the rapid propagation. And so Neolithic peoples found these grains and they're barely edible. You know, you have to boil them, which was hard to do, or mash them, try and turn them into a gruel, but it's calories and their seed pods are quite dry. If you pick them before they fall, you could store them for quite a long time with not a lot of technology. But it's important to remember that all of these different species were kind of together. And some of the first tools, like we know so much about grain growing going back to that era, because the tools for harvesting grain, some of them are incredibly ancient. I found one archaeological study for a 9,000 year old sickle made from the jawbone of some horse derivative with flint embedded in it. But even more important, that there was bits of grain still stuck in the flint. So they were able to do genetic analysis of exactly the species of grains that were on these sickles, even in the Bronze Age. So fast forward several millennia, bronze was a relatively rare metal because it relies on tin. Copper is pretty common, but tin's very scarce. And so typically you never saw farming implements made of bronze. There were only weapons or items for the very wealthy, but there were six sickles made of bronze. So it sort of speaks to how important these cereal crops were. But they emerge from this sort of Mediterranean environment of the, of the.

Richard Campbell (125:39)

Fertile Crescent. Of course, wheat moves into Egypt fairly early on and makes the kingdom of Egypt. And the reason for that was that that Mediterranean climate grows it extremely well. But even more important is the flooding of the Nile, the constant rejuvenation of the soil, soil, you know, parts of the, of the Fertile Crescent areas around the Tigris and Euphrates river, the initial development of agriculture there, that turns into actually starting to.

Richard Campbell (126:08)

To divert rivers and create canals to provide enough water for growing plants, salts the land. It starts to draw it, reduce river flow to the point where what's now known as the Persian Gulf starts to encroach on the land and actually desert, desert fire it. But that's not a problem in Egypt, which is why Egypt stays a bread basket, literally for millennia. But for those grains to grow further north to start to propagate into the culture, into those colder climbs in different soils, it happens relatively slowly. The plant itself is fairly good at propagating, but people are also doing as well. But the species automatically doesn't necessarily do well there. Like, we forget about this now because we've had the green revolution in the 1960s, where we bred and crossbred crops to grow in more and more areas. But this also happened naturally across all of northern Europe as these grains slowly propagated outward. And one of the things that they discovered as you moved further north is that you don't have good seasons all the time. The winter comes on. And if you don't plant something after you harvest there's going to be weed crops that will grow and cover your ground. And you're going to have to. To cut them all out again in the spring to plant another crop. And so they started doing winter cropping, winter plants. And some species of wheat did better than others. So you started to get into this idea of winter wheats as well as spring reads. The spring wheats grow faster, the winter wheats grow slower, but they do survive. And mixed into this is of course, the barley and the rye. And rye was never a popular grain. It's quite a bit bitter, it grows slower, and so it's not as good tasting. In fact, even Pliny the Elder talk about rye was only for a subsistence. You would much rather eat Emmer, a particular species of wheat.

Leo Laporte (127:53)

You can still get it, but rye.

Richard Campbell (127:56)

Yeah, and Emmer still exists. And, and we've been, we realize now that the COVID crop process, where they would also grow goat grass to try and rejuvenate soils, because then they put the goats on it to eat that grass down and their natural fertilization would help rejuvenate soil oils that what we consider bread wheat was actually a natural hybridization of Emmer wheat and goat grass. I did a whole set of podcasts on this. Maybe you can tell.

Leo Laporte (128:26)

With these antique wheats. They're really delicious. Some of them. They're much better than the.

Richard Campbell (128:32)

Yeah, because we, we've optimized for maximum growing now and we get so much higher yields. Like, the reason wheat and corn dominate dominate the market today is because they were easy to adapt to a larger array of climates and they grow more food per acre. But that doesn't make them the most tasty versions. And this is also the problem with rye. But what rye has going for it is it has a natural antifreeze in it. And so as you get further north with harder climates and harder grains, the rye still grows when the wheat won't grow.

Leo Laporte (129:01)

That makes sense.

Richard Campbell (129:03)

And so of course, people didn't know this going back this far. This is 5,000 years ago. What they did know is these were the seeds that grew. And so they kept those seeds for the off season. And so often in a place as far north as what we now call Lithuania, you'd get a spring crop of wheat and then you'd do a cover crop of rye. And unless you were desperate, you probably would need it. You'd feed it to the ant, you'd have something planted that would protect the ground for the next spring where it's easier to plant more wheat and continue on and so rye naturally emerges as an important crop in the northern regions. And because it doesn't taste particularly good, you're growing enough that one of the things you did with it to use it up, she made it into alcohol.

Richard Campbell (129:49)

Because, you know, you don't have to deal with the taste so much. And you. It's still got the sugars in it. It's basically the same process. So you're eating the wheat and the, and the barley, maybe making beer with the barley, but you're using the rise of COVID crop, you're feeding to your animals. And when you have the excess seed, you then malt it and distill it and you make a whiskey from it. Now, we could talk about what's actually a whiskey per se. Now, Starka is the name for a distilled ride from this part of the world. And it's got a clear legacy that runs back about 500 years or so. It's distilled in pot stills. It uses a direct fire process that they sort of toast the wort and introduce some more flavors for it. And then it's often flavored. When you finish with the raw alcohol, the water white dog, so to speak, they'll add linden and apple and pear leaves to it to flavor it a bit before they put it into oak barrels typically previously used by wine, and age it for three to as much as 50 years. In fact, there's a cultural element that goes back several hundred years, mostly in Poland, although you got to think back in that era, the Poland Lithuanian Federation covered this. All of this area, both Poland and much of the Baltics, all the way into what is now now known as Belarus, was largely controlled by the same group of people. And so during those periods of the Commonwealth when a boy was born to a wealthy family, they would take an old wine barrel and they'd fill it with this rye spirit, seal it with beeswax, and buried in the ground to be opened when that boy got married.

Leo Laporte (131:21)

Wow.

Richard Campbell (131:21)

So typically 15 to 20 years. And that would be a special drink. And that's where the name Starka comes to rob. It's a derivative of Starkis, which is.

Richard Campbell (131:31)

Lithuanian for stork, as in the stork brings the babies.

Leo Laporte (131:36)

That's why there's a stork on the front of it. I was trying to figure that out. Yeah, there you go.

Richard Campbell (131:40)

There's the stork on the front of it. Now this makes the question, is this rye whiskey or is this vodka? Because often in the translations of Lithuanian documents, they call it vodka. Vodka but you think about it, what's the difference between vodka and whiskey anyway? A lot of people say, well, vodka is made with potatoes. Simply not true. Yes, there is some vodka made with potatoes, but vodka with everything, whatever you can get your hands on. The real distinction, you would say with vodka is a. It's typically a high distillate. You typically go within the 90% range and then cut with water with nothing else added to it. If you add some herbs and other flavorants, you're making gin, right? Typically with juniper. Now, arguably, what whiskey really is is a lower distillate, only going to 60 or 70%, typically a cereal grain and then aged in oak. That's what makes it. But at one point you could have called it vodka. And there's not the same strict rules in this part of the world about how high to distill or not distill. And that brings us to the distiller here, a company called Stumbrous.

Richard Campbell (132:48)

So while this kind of product may be 500 years old, you know, the. The tumult of this part of the world means that companies. It's rare to last very long, but stumpus is over 100 years old. It was formed in 1906. Now, at that time in this part of the world, this was part of the Russian Empire. And so actually, in a town about an hour and a half from here, from Vilnius called Kantas, they created the Kaunas State Wine Warehouse number 1 1. And it was the first distillery in Kaunas. And it produced largely fruit brandies from the excess wine and fruit crops that they had, as well as various kinds of vodka and Starka, because Starka was a cultural product that was made extensively. Now at the end of World War I, we get the first independent republic of Lithuania. And so the distillery goes very well. It's supported by the state. It's part of distinctive products of Lithuania. Now, that's all well and fine until you'll get about 19, 1940, when the Soviet Union, which at that time is still working with Germany, moves through the Baltics and takes control and actually will stay in control until the 1990s. Of course, now you get the reversal of the relationship with Hitler, all of that conflict, and not until the Soviet Union actually collapses does Lithuania become independent again. But during that period of 1940 to 1990, Stumbris is under Soviet control and they start merging a bunch of other distilleries related to it. The original name, of course, was the Khan of statewide wine warehouse. The name Stubris comes from a different liquor Producer that gets integrated into it a bunch along with a bunch of other distilleries. So by the time we get to the 1990s, when they get independent of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union collapses. The organization after a few years is privatized and expanded again and becomes a major product offering as Lithuania joins the European Union in 2004. And their primary products are, of course, vodka, which again can be made from just about anything. It's just a high distillate brandy. And Danaeva, which are both wine and fruit derived alcohols. And Starka. Beautiful thing about this is it is a rye whiskey. Looks like a rye whiskey. It's got a nice smell to it. It's a strong alcohol note. It's 43%. It's pretty pointy. It doesn't have the spiciness I would expect from a rye like we would get for an American rye.

Paul Thurat (135:14)

But it.

Richard Campbell (135:14)

Is definitely a whiskey, without a doubt. It's just got a couple of fruit notes in it that are very interesting. But my favorite part about the whole thing. 12 bucks. Oh, 12 bucks.

Richard Campbell (135:26)

12 bucks. 12 bucks.

Richard Campbell (135:29)

I went up to the local liquor store across the street from the hotel. They had it there, picked it up. 12 bucks.

Paul Thurat (135:35)

Bucks. Wow.

Richard Campbell (135:36)

And I'm gonna. It was a 500 mil bottle. It's a smaller bottle. I'm gonna share it out with my friends. I won't leave it here. But it was great to dig into the sort of realities of why do they make rye whiskeys and rye products up here? Because they grow a lot of rye and you can only eat so much pumpkinickel and. And rye crisps. You know, those are all really.

Leo Laporte (135:56)

Gotta drink some of your rye, I think. Yes.

Richard Campbell (135:58)

Well, it's just a recognition that rye is quite a difficult grain to use. And both those products are very stable. Right. They're your safety products. You keep them in the cupboard just in case you don't eat large volumes of them. And so they use up their rye by making alcohol with it. And that is imminently practical and part of the many things I really enjoy about being this part of the world.

Leo Laporte (136:18)

Now you're drinking the originali, but they also make a dark side and a wild side. Have you tried the.

Richard Campbell (136:24)

Yeah, I have not, but I understand it's just different flavorants on the same base product. Now what I appreciate is, although it's in Lithuania, on the back of this bottle is actually an ingredients list. And the number one thing on the ingredients list, I use Google Translate to understand it. Product number one in this bottle water. Remember, it's 43% alcohol, which means the other 57% is going to be water.

Paul Thurat (136:49)

Yeah.

Richard Campbell (136:50)

And the second product is grain alcohol.

Paul Thurat (136:54)

Right.

Richard Campbell (136:54)

Which is just a simple definition of. Of what that is. That grain happens to be rye.

Paul Thurat (137:00)

Okay.

Leo Laporte (137:02)

What else is.

Richard Campbell (137:03)

But you don't see the ingredient list on a liquor bottle.

Richard Campbell (137:07)

What is Lithuanian for hooch? Exactly. Anyway, it's, it's. It's interesting to see an ingredients list on a bottle.

Leo Laporte (137:16)

I want you to try the story.

Richard Campbell (137:18)

That'S on the back of the bottle.

Leo Laporte (137:19)

At some point just to. Just to see if stumbles.

Richard Campbell (137:22)

You know, good vodka, I'm sure it's fine. But you know, if I. If I really want to go crazy on the vodka because I go hang in Poland because they have a vodka for all occasions.

Paul Thurat (137:31)

Yeah.

Richard Campbell (137:32)

They do make a stomach upset. We got a vodka.

Paul Thurat (137:34)

Vodka is to Poland is. Cheese is to France.

Paul Thurat (137:39)

It's 786 varieties.

Richard Campbell (137:43)

But the only place you can find a 25 year old Starka is in Poland. So I haven't had an opportunity to try that. But. Yeah, no, no, I think they've dug it up already and put it in bottles for you to purchase at probably a higher price than 12 bucks.

Paul Thurat (137:57)

It's dug it up like a crypt. Yeah, it's fine.

Leo Laporte (138:01)

Anyway, a nice change to a little something local, a little something different, not expensive.

Richard Campbell (138:07)

It's. You know. You call this the brown liquor segment for a reason, Leo? Because I can find a lot of different brown liquor liquors from a lot of different places.

Paul Thurat (138:14)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (138:16)

You know, now I'm wondering if I can. If I can buy this in the United States.

Paul Thurat (138:21)

No, there's no way.

Richard Campbell (138:22)

But you know.

Richard Campbell (138:25)

I hope, you know, they're clearly making a push. Like it's getting hip to find unusual products. It's like.

Richard Campbell (138:34)

This. So I'm not saying it's out of realms entirely. I'm going not bring a bottle. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing these sort of things. But I've been begging for Divin to head west fore. The best darn brandy I've ever had.

Leo Laporte (138:47)

Liquor Barn has it for 16 bucks.

Richard Campbell (138:50)

It's amazing, dude. Beautiful.

Leo Laporte (138:53)

I might want to just. Just to have some.

Richard Campbell (138:56)

Well, and it's the thing. It's like it's coming up on Christmas. You want to blow a whiskey person away, Try some Lithuanian whiskey.

Leo Laporte (139:03)

I got some. I got some.

Paul Thurat (139:06)

Tori.

Richard Campbell (139:07)

Yeah.

Paul Thurat (139:08)

It's stork time.

Leo Laporte (139:09)

Stork time.

Paul Thurat (139:10)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (139:12)

They might think I'm trying to hurt them.

Richard Campbell (139:15)

And I'm not saying you're not. But you know, wow.

Leo Laporte (139:20)

They also.

Richard Campbell (139:22)

It tricks just fine. It really does.

Leo Laporte (139:26)

It sounds great and it goody goody liquor.

Paul Thurat (139:30)

He doesn't want to leave the country. He has to say that now. But yeah.

Richard Campbell (139:35)

Wow.

Leo Laporte (139:37)

They say that in the old days, Lithuanian men would make starka to celebrate the birth of their first son.

Richard Campbell (139:46)

That's the thing. That's a 500 year old.

Leo Laporte (139:50)

Story.

Richard Campbell (139:51)

They've been doing it since the 15th century, since the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Leo Laporte (139:55)

That's Richard Campbell. You'll find his other works@runisradio.com of course that includes run his radio the podcast also.net rocks that he does with Carl Free Franklin. And he is a world traveler. His next appearance on these shores will be Monday when we do our holiday special. We're going to pre record for New Year's Eve. You can join us at noon this coming Monday.

Richard Campbell (140:20)

I'll be an exotic Lower Makunji.

Leo Laporte (140:23)

Exotic. There will be liquors of a variety.

Paul Thurat (140:26)

Geographically you'll be in Lower Macunji, but politically or whatever zip code, you will be in Macunji.

Richard Campbell (140:33)

Okay.

Paul Thurat (140:34)

Because nothing makes sense.

Leo Laporte (140:36)

One of the things we'll learn on Monday, no doubt, is about Macunji. There will be no Windows Talk, but there will be stories.

Paul Thurat (140:43)

Oh, yeah. I like it. Stories.

Richard Campbell (140:45)

I guess I should. I guess you should go get a Pennsylvanian whiskey because I know they exist.

Leo Laporte (140:51)

Really?

Paul Thurat (140:52)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They definitely do. Yep.

Richard Campbell (140:55)

Yeah.

Leo Laporte (140:55)

Well, I'm going to look for a Petaluman Whiskey. Whiskey. Actually, we have some. We have our own little distillery here in Petalum Griffo. Yeah, I'll get a little Griffo to drink along with you guys.

Richard Campbell (141:05)

I don't know if we're gonna make it cozy. Maybe we'll just. We'll do some spiked eggnog.

Leo Laporte (141:09)

You know, I am an eggnog fanatic. I love eggnog.

Paul Thurat (141:12)

I could probably actually, maybe we should film this in front of the fireplace. We could just like, please get to the whole thing.

Leo Laporte (141:20)

Please, would you? Yeah, I think get a couple of big leather armchairs, a Mastiff dog.

Paul Thurat (141:26)

I don't know about the leather armchairs, but I have the fireplace place. We'll see. I'll see what we can do.

Leo Laporte (141:31)

Set up some cameras. This is gonna be a lot of fun.

Richard Campbell (141:33)

We'll work on our best Nick Offerman impressions.

Leo Laporte (141:36)

Exactly. I'll get a yule log behind me and.

Paul Thurat (141:39)

And we just 45 minutes of us be like, it'll be fun.

Richard Campbell (141:42)

It's good having a little sip soon.

Leo Laporte (141:46)

I like how he nursed that.

Paul Thurat (141:48)

That drink.

Richard Campbell (141:49)

Yeah, he did his job with that. Yeah, I, I would have drank that a bit faster than.

Leo Laporte (141:56)

Paul Thorat is at therot.com Become Premium Member for all the goodness. But of course there's lots of stuff there for everyone. And his books are@leanpub.com including Windows Everywhere and the Field Guide to Lindows 11. Both available at a set you already did.

Paul Thurat (142:11)

He just call it Lindos 11, Lindo's 11.

Leo Laporte (142:15)

It's the next edition of Linux and it's going to be very exciting. I can't wait. Lindows 11. Thank you everybody for joining us. We do Windows Weekly normally of windows Wednesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern, 1900 UTC. You can watch us live if you're in the club and I hope you are. Please, if you're not on Club Twit, go to Twit TV Club Twit and join the fam. So if you're in the club, you can be in the Discord. Watch there. Although a lot of even the people in the club like to watch on YouTube. That's open to all. Twitch, X.com, facebook, LinkedIn and Kik. We stream on those five other platforms after the fact. You can download copies of the show from our website, TWiT TV WW. We have audio and video available. There's also a YouTube channel dedicated to Windows Weekly. Very handy if you want to share a clip with friends and family or enemies, whoever you want to share it with. Best thing to do, subscribe at your favorite podcast player. That way you'll get it automatically as soon as we're done. And again you choose between audio or video or both.

Paul Thurat (143:19)

Both.

Leo Laporte (143:19)

Leave us a nice review. Tell the world about this fantastic show. Mr. Thurat, Mr. Campbell, great to see you. Safe travels, Richard.

Paul Thurat (143:29)

Yes.

Leo Laporte (143:29)

Next. Next meet we will be in Makunjee for our holiday special.

Paul Thurat (143:36)

I was looking forward to it. It's just like a Hallmark Christmas video, you know.

Leo Laporte (143:41)

It's nice turned upside down. We might have a visit from Krampus. I don't know. It'll be exciting. That's all I can say.

Paul Thurat (143:47)

Whatever. The Dutch Pennsylvania Dutch version of Santa Claus.

Leo Laporte (143:51)

They must have Krampus in the Pennsylvania.

Paul Thurat (143:54)

Yeah, definitely.

Leo Laporte (143:55)

To punish the bad children for not being good.

Paul Thurat (143:59)

Yep.

Leo Laporte (143:59)

Thank you everybody for joining us. Have a wonderful week. We will see you next time on Windows Weekly.

Paul Thurat (144:16)

Based on the worldwide best selling novel.

Richard Campbell (144:17)

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Leo Laporte (144:19)

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