← Always Be Testing
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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your host, Ty Grange and I'm super excited to talk to Scott Ginsberg today. Scott, how you doing, man?
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A
Doing great, yeah. Excited too. Excited to jump in with you.
- [00:19]
B
Yeah, absolutely. We've known each other, gosh, it feels like a long time right now, at least. Coming up on 20. Not quite. Maybe 15. Yep.
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A
Yeah, no, great to. Great to reconnect on this side. And yeah, I think it's probably going closer to 20 these days, which is crazy.
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B
So I'm hearing more and more of our kind of like peers bring that up as they chat on pods and catch up and the industry is maturing, which is, which is a good thing.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Yeah. Well, you guys are going to be in for a treat. Scott is an amazing individual, amazing affiliate practitioner. He's the current VP of performance marketing at Penske Media. They're one of the leading platforms out there for content for media. They have amazing sites and communities like Billboard, Rolling Stone, Variety, Rob Report, south by Southwest, which is near and dear to my heart because we're here in Austin, Texas. So you got a lot of good knowledge to share, Scott.
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A
Absolutely excited to share it with you in the audience.
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B
Absolutely not to also want to share and shout out his previous experience. He's been a leader in a number of great companies holding long standing leadership positions with Brand Cycle Commission Junction and Yahoo. So Scott's got a lot of knowledge to share just to jump right in. Like affiliate marketing, I talk about it a lot, is the most misunderstood and the most underrated of performance marketing levers. What do you think people get wrong about affiliate marketing?
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A
I feel like there's still a stigma that it's poor quality, which is unfortunate because I think as an industry we've really tried to change that perception over the last 20 plus years. Years. I think when it first started, I think it was coming onto the map as sort of lower funnel and some potential CD characters. And I think if you fast forward now, it's bringing some of the best brands in the world into the fray. So I think it's just changing that perception of can still be last click, can still be, you know, lower funnel, but can it be an extremely marketing, extremely valuable marketing channel for brands overall?
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B
Yeah, I love that. I couldn't agree more. I think it's so we talk about it a lot, we hear it a lot. I think it's when it's done the right way is kind of what comes to mind and from what you're sharing and I Think that that's often where the river meets the road. If it's done the right way, it's going to outperform a lot of other investments.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
That's amazing. You obviously have seen a ton in the publisher side of the ecosystem. That's where you've spent a lot of your time. That ecosystem is evolving. No doubt. If anything is what type of publishers are you seeing that are successful in right now and all the changes that are happening?
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A
Yeah, so I made the move about six or seven years ago from CJ when I was sort of viewing the whole ecosystem and sort of seeing all the changes. And for me, content is what I kind of loved. I was sort of seeing brands perk up when business insider and BuzzFeed and CNN started to sort of embrace affiliate. So for me it's really just continuation of bringing more content. Of course now with AI, there's a lot of different publishers coming out that are sort of using AI to sort of help with an affiliate to monetize. I think Influencer continues to be pretty dominant as the social channels continue. So I would say really the diversification, I think they'll always be a place for sort of that last click loyalty coupon and deal. But I feel like what's changed is more and more of these sort of upper funnel, more of these brands have sort of started to participate, which I can tell a lot of advertisers are excited about because it sort of opens up their eyes to oh, affiliate can be give you that last click but also help you to sort of get in front of these audiences as well.
- [03:51]
B
Yeah, it's funny, I remember sitting down with a really reputable CMO agency leader like Ran Multichannel had seen what affiliate can do, seen a lot of things. He was more of a paid social and search guy. But I sat down with him, talking to him and he literally was like, this was about five years ago. It's like it's just coupons, right. And was like, oh no, let me tell you what it is. And I think that perception has, has improved a ton in the last five years, but I think it still has a long ways to go. To your. To your point. Yeah, that's really interesting. When you think about the content sites, when you think about good publishers, how do they kind of strike that right Balance and mix of the audience growth. They need the engagement and kind of the quality metrics that you need to see and then the all important piece of monetization with the quality content. Like how do you. Obviously you're not Having to, like, navigate maybe all of that at once, but how do you see good publishers figure that out?
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A
Yeah. So I think specifically to where I kind of focus on more content, I feel like it's that really editorial balance. Right. Like being true to our editorial, but also helping a brand to do that storytelling. So, like, for example, one of my favorite articles that we did, Doc Martens. Right. I think most people know Doc Martens. They wanted to work with us. And really we sort of did some research and realized that a lot of rock stars and musicians liked their boots. So we did an article on Rolling Stone, leaning in on the history of sort of Doc Martens boots within rock and roll. And I just thought that was a really cool intersection of commerce and content and Rolling Stones music authority. And so what I often say is, when we get it right, it comes off as authentic storytelling and really gives the brand sort of the best of both worlds. Right. Like, if they had a PR team that could sort of get in front of, how would they want to speak to that audience? And I feel like we allow for that or sort of allow for brands to be able to do that across some of our sites.
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B
I could not be more thrilled and, like, wholeheartedly in agreement with that. It's just an epic way to think about what this channel can do. It's like the holy grail of bringing brands to content and kind of marrying them together. I've talked a lot about the ebay motors example that I experienced firsthand with Bring a Trailer. And I think that was just such a similar thing where you kind of. It's like a. It's a match made in heaven. It very much talks about. Speaks to the audience that they want to hear that stuff and they want to see that stuff. It doesn't feel like you're pushing anything. Right? Yeah.
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A
Like, I think, like, people are like, is it an advertorial? Is an ad? And I'm like, no. We obviously are trying to monetize, but doing it in a way that, like, I hope the user on Rolling Stone finds value. And I think that's the balance. Right. Is clearly, we want to make sure that we're monetizing, but doing it in a way that's not going to upset our users. It's going to maybe complement their experience. And, hey, maybe they'll buy Doc Martens boots because of that article. So that's sort of when we get it right, those types of outcomes.
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B
That's amazing. That's amazing. And I think that when you made that shift into the content realm that you're in now, not to say you cannot do that with other partner types, but I imagine under the umbrella of Penske, there's all sorts of creative ways where you could emulate something like that. Is, is there a way that you try to introduce that concept to folks or is it mostly like those that are proactive are coming to you to figure that type of thing out?
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A
So I think one of the most powerful things is being able to share examples. Right. Like, obviously I get asked for a lot of case studies and I've never personally valued sort of an anonymized case study of so and so brand, but if I can show on running what Hoke has done, if I can show Nike what Adidas has done, it just really gives the brand the ability to kind of see A, what this looks like and B, we've got many clients that do multiple pieces of content. So it also allows them to say like, hey, clearly it's working, or else they probably wouldn't be doubling down. So I would say that. And then I think the one cool thing about Penske is that, for example, like we have Rolling Stone for music, we also have Billboard, we've got Variety for entertainment, but we also have Hollywood Reporter. So for us, it's trying to work with a brand, make them happy, and then extend it across those different audiences. So I think to get that, we know that we have to get it right and we have to be authentic to the audiences. And the goal being is increasing the value of these relationships.
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B
Yeah, that's amazing. Are there things that you do? Obviously the performance side is very important, but are there elements that you find help to create kind of longer term collaborations with brands or sort of a longer life cycle as opposed to, hey, we're going to do this big campaign and then we'll see you later. What are some of the things that your team thinks about or you guys think about to optimize for maybe more of that longer term collaboration with the brand?
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A
Yeah, no, when we first started doing this about seven years ago, it was a lot of one offs, like, hey, give us a budget. Here's an article. Good luck. Right. And I think what we've learned is that within upper funnel content, right, it can act similar to an always on strategy, right. Where we have some brands that do year long deals with us, some that do quarterly, but for us, the goal being is to constantly get them to work across the portfolio and at scale. Right. So we have some brands that are up to $500,000, they'll give us over the course of the year to get content. And so it's really being able to understand their KPIs, understand their goals. And again we've always been open that we know it's a performance channel. And what I specifically do is mostly asking for that upfront investment. And I realize that the responsibility there is it has to perform right. It can't burn a brid. We can't say, hey, thanks for the IO, talk to you later. So for us we have a client success team that makes sure we're offering transparency on reporting. We're doing built in make goods, we're boosting on social if we see our KPIs off. So for us we want to have 100% retention rate. I'm proud to say we're close to 80 right now. But for us we want to make sure these clients keep coming back and keep working with us and see the value in our audiences.
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B
I love that. And then you and I have seen enough and many of the audience and our colleagues and peers see it too. Where for a long time the attribution models or the measurement necessarily like catch up or was aligned properly with what the value that you're doing. I think unfortunately that's still a challenge in affiliate in a lot of ways that programs are managed. When you see that maybe some of that's misaligned or I would love to hear your perspective how you or your team sort of coaches or suggest setting it up the right way for attribution purposes. Not necessarily the end all be all script but how do you keep people up for success there to measure it the right way.
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A
Yeah. So I think it's also really being upfront about setting expectations properly. Right. I always say like hey, if you want a 9 to 1 roas, probably want to go lower funnel. Right. I like to say that we try to always maintain a one to one if not higher. But I say that the brands that really like what we do, they want the conversion, they want the last click. But they also realize like you're not going to Rolling Stone to necessarily purchase a product but you're going to sort of read. And within that experience that's where I think our brands can sort of show up and help to influence. So I would say it's really sort of the alignment there that that becomes very important for us.
- [11:27]
B
Yeah, that's super interesting. I love that because it aligns with my experience in in house where I was doing a lot of buying and positioning for brand influencer content in various roles And I, I would, I found a similar data point of, of a multi year process where on average it could get about a one to one but every once in a while I'd get like a three to one and it would really, really pop off the page and be like okay, let's do more of that. So it's a, it's a great expectation setter and I think, I think making sure that people's attribution structure is reasonable and you've got a window where you're not going to get at a disadvantage to, to some of the other partner types, I think that's an important one.
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A
Yeah. And some of the networks tie these days have like cj I know offer some click journey reporting impact as well. And I think the one thing that we always find is yes, last click we obviously need to perform but whenever we sort of zoom out we see where we're influencing that journey. We see that we're maybe not converting and they might go to a lower funnel but we are helping with that journey. So I think just brands that get it, they see where we're helping them to influence that consumer. And again we are always trying to convert when we can. But I think brands that sort of see, understand the sort of full ecosystem, they see it where it's great content, let's hope to convert but also realistic about where to your question or to your point like that longer sort of tail of content because again we don't take down content and often we'll put brands in gift guides and listicles and those are meant to be evergreen. Right. So again you get the initial pop but we love it when brands sort of get that sort of like long term value from whatever they do with us.
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B
Yeah. And I think that's one of the magic positives of this, this ecosystem that we're in. There's a, there is a long term aspect to it in terms of the relationships and even some of the content that can live on and the performance. So I really like where your, where your head's at with that. Even when you know some of the folks cannot always afford to look that far ahead. They have to look, look at the here and the now. Moving on to our favorite topic, the wave that's coming in technology with AI obviously a lot of talk, a lot of changes. It's transforming things for a lot of individuals and teams and businesses. How are you seeing it transition or change things just from your perspective, from the publisher view and from the media house perspective.
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A
Yeah. So I think a lot of us are trying to see what is going to be with these LLMs in a, in a no click environment. Right. I think we're all curious Again, when LLMs get it right, really the consumer doesn't necessarily need to go to the content site or click through. So I think for us we're obviously trying to do what we can, whether it's Google, whether it's these different AI optimizations, but really we're also pushing to diversify, right? We're not going to wait just and say, hey, let's hope that all this AI traffic doesn't sort of hurt some of our normal search traffic. We've seen it, right? So for us, social has become really, really big. Whether it's us boosting a campaign to give it more visibility. Another thing that we have is again, when we have a really good piece of content, we've had a large appetite for brands saying like, hey, we can say nice things about ourselves, but we like how you did it. Can we boost that on our social? So that's been a really kind of a nice lever for us to pull pmc. We have about seven or eight sites that are heavily leaning in, but a network of about 20 to 25 sites. So for us it's using display. Right. And getting consumers in the network into our articles. And I still think email has a place. A lot of our sites have dedicated. Email will do email inclusion. So it's really. Whereas three, four years ago, SEO and was king and obviously that was a huge driver for us. And now you mentioned AI which is going down. But even the SEO trends are kind of like for us we just see it as sort of overall traffic that we're seeing sort of decline. And for us to make sure that these brands are happy, we're just constantly trying to sort of diversify that so that we can give them those same results even if these headwinds continue to cannibalize some of our traffic.
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B
Yeah, I love the thought of it. Reminds me of a lot of suggestions and recommendations, you know, we've made over the years. We've seen so many flavors of client situations and growth needs and it's not dissimilar to investment advice or oftentimes performance marketing advice or advice within the affiliate industry itself to have some diversification. A lot of the platforms, there's some great learnings over the years that you can't necessarily rely on them forever and they have a lot of control to throttle you on all sorts of levels, even social if they want to. So I love the email and building of the brand. And the fortunate thing I love is that there is such a legacy value of what you're a part of and what the brands mean and what they resonate for people. And I mean that genuinely. And I think that it's really part of our thesis too. I think the AI is obviously changing, like where people are going to find the discovery and things are shifting. But our thesis is like the trust levels are not necessarily what they, what they used to be. People really crave, not necessarily just hearing from the Nikes or the Allbirds or the Reeboks or the Adidas or whatever the brand might be as an example. They really want to hear from those trusted third party voices and some of the big media houses and the stories around them, those are still real. And I think there's that fine line between some of the entertainment, information and discovery that you're going to have to kind of straddle in this era. So I just believe that especially for things that have a little bit more consideration, my sentiment is that you're still in a very valuable critical position.
- [17:15]
A
Yeah. And we truly believe in our content and we truly believe that that's at the core what we're great at. And so some of our brands, Womenswear Daily, Rolling Stone, and these are 800 year old brands that have a lot of authority. Right. So it's really just trying to sort of feel confident that they'll find a way to continue to sort of be great brands, whatever form it takes for the consumer, finding them and just constantly trying to evolve to where the market is heading.
- [17:42]
B
Yeah, absolutely. You've obviously had some amazing experiences, led good teams for so long and been a leader for a lot of great companies for a long time. It's pretty impressive. What would you say is your go to advice for aspiring leaders in our industry or in general?
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A
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I would say it truly is the golden rule. Right. Treat people like how you want to be treated. I often think of some of the best leaders that I've ever had. And whether it's Kerry Pollard from CJ or just some of the bosses that really just brought the best out of me and got me excited beyond just doing the job, but being part of something or going to work. And I always try to set the bar for myself as I want to be the best boss that any employee of mine has ever had. And that requires an individual approach to each person, finding out what motivates them, what they don't like, what they do like. But I think just that authentic Leadership is key. And I pride myself on the fact that being in this industry for so long, I've had big teams and you never know, someone could be your boss, your coworker, your peer. Right. And so it's always just making sure that you, you value those relationships and you invest in those relationships. And Ty, we've been doing this for a long time. I love the affiliate. That part of the affiliate ecosystem. Right. It's the people and just being able to. It's like you and I, right. We've known each other for 20 years and just being able to now work together even closer. It's just that special connections that we all have and I just love that.
- [19:09]
B
That's so cool. It kind of reminds me of a story that was CJ related. I was in the CJ San Francisco office and I somehow got to know one of the leaders on the Mediaplex team under the umbrella of ValueClick, which we all worked for. And he was a younger but successful leader, Sean Quick. I'll give him a shout out. You probably recall him, and I still keep in touch with them. And he, he just really emphasized that how important that was. And I was earlier in my career, I wasn't entry. Entry, but I was earlier and still, still getting, getting the chops and the experience. And he was great about really emphasizing that, hey, someone that is two or three layers below you now could be leading a billion dollar company in a few years and vice versa. So even if you take that out of it, it's like it's kind of just that golden rule of positivity and staying in touch with people for a long time. I love that you just kind of emphasize that.
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A
Exactly. Yeah, we, we work to live, we don't live to work. Right. And I think within work, I think we can find ways to, to really just make sure that again, we're all doing a job, but let's just enjoy it the best we can and just get the most out of it while we're here. So.
- [20:18]
B
No, absolutely. And I can tell just from how you operate and just your demeanor on the pod and what you're sharing and how you show up and how you've responded to our team and how you think and operate, I can tell there's like a, a servant leader mentality and there's a diligent like, hey, I'm willing to do the things it takes to be successful and be supportive for my team. I'm not just kind of like shouting commands from the rooftops. I'm, I'm in the work with you to help you and try to win.
- [20:46]
A
Yep. I remember one of my, one of my mentors told me once that I was. I was at a startup and sort of complaining a little bit about like doing some of the lower. And he's like, I'm a founder of a big company. He's like, if I have to take the trash out, I'll take the trash out. And I've always kind of struck with me. Right. It's like, no job should be beneath you. And I think because I've grown up in the industry, I've done most roles. So I think with my teams, they know that I'm willing to kind of roll up my sleeve. And I think that's also really important to know that you have their back and vice versa.
- [21:12]
B
Yeah. Definitely builds a lot of trust and camaraderie and value and people. People love that. So it's just, it's just good stuff. This is great. Obviously, experimentation, learning is near and dear to the pod, hence the name. If you think about, like, of all the learnings you've had over the career, I'm sure there's been some really interesting. Whether it may be a B test or lift test or campaigns or marketing generally in your career, was there something that jumped out at you as a test learn or a learning that you thought would be interesting to share with the audience? Yeah.
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A
So when I first started and I went from CJ and I started it again, it was brand cycle. We were an agency for publishers. And at that point, Ty, I didn't really know how to monetize a publisher, I'll be honest with you. But we kind of had an attitude. Sort of fake it till you make it right. And I remember when I was working, I was selling for Penske, we got a really big I.O. for Rolling Stone and we didn't know how to execute. And I just remember we tried doing ad units instead of articles, burn some bridges. So I feel like since then I've always taught myself, keep iterating, keep trying to improve it. And I think that's why, fast forward seven years, we now have about 150 active clients that are all working. So it took that like not breaking it necessarily, but be willing to get it wrong and to optimize and iterate. And I always tell the team, like every year, let's just reimagine what are we selling and how are we doing it, given the current ecosystem? Because as things change, change very, very quick. And what worked a few years back strictly isn't working now. So I think we're always challenging ourselves as to like how to think differently just given you never want to be left behind in this channel. So.
- [22:55]
B
Yeah, I love that. And while certain things stay the same, there's, there's all, all this change that is happening. So I think to, to be able to make those iterative improvements daily, weekly, monthly, et cetera is really critical and helpful. We're certainly living through that. And you, you, you've shown you continue to do that. To get from, from something small to 150 clients is an amazing feat and a testament to your success.
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A
Yeah. Well, I mean like I said before, it's relationships. Right. And I know if I'm going to someone I have a relationship with and trying to get them to work with me, I have a responsibility to do right by them. Right. And I want them to continue and that's why I'm proud the fact that we have the retention rate. We do. We want to make sure again we know we're in kind of a weird thing asking for budgets in a performance channel. So be by doing that we do need to make sure that we're offering anything we can to, to ensure that these clients have that success.
- [23:45]
B
Yeah. And I love the high quality approach. It just, it hits me, hits what we're trying to do as well. And I sense that from you and your team to be able to retain at that level, it has to be a big piece of it.
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A
Yeah. And Ty your, your agency early days between some of the Facebooks and some of the, some of the exercise brands you had, you were a huge part of that. So we liked working with you and continue to do so.
- [24:06]
B
So awesome. Always appreciate it. Always appreciate it, Scott. Just an awesome hit list of learnings and great things to share. Just coming down the home stretch, thinking about getting to know you more personally. For those that don't know you as much, what's something that people might not know about you that you want to share with the audience? Sure.
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A
So I was originally thinking I do have four kids, which is I think a larger size family. But I would say people that knew me early never really been athletic. However, I always was fascinated by the Boston marathon. So about eight years ago after turning 40, I ran my first marathon. So that was definitely one of those bucket list things that I always wanted to do and was able to accomplish that. So that to me was, was one of those things where out of the comfort zone. But once once done, it felt, it did feel good.
- [24:55]
B
So good for you man. Good for You, I, I have to ask, are there things that you. And that's a massive feat and I don't know. It's not built for every, it's not for everyone. Have you been able to stay involved in things similar. Are there things that you do to stay active similar to that now?
- [25:14]
A
Yeah, I try to run every day. It's kind of my routine now and I just like it. I feel like it kind of gets me going for the day. It sort of helps me to stay motivated. No more races. I think that the running for four hours just. I had some back things and things like that. So I'm not sure I'll do another marathon. But I do love the continuation of the running and being able to take advantage of that.
- [25:35]
B
So good for you. Yeah, I've heard it and I've experienced it to be kind of semi meditative and it kind of clears the brain out and it's good for you. So good on you, man. That's rad. Is there a software we talk a lot to in the B2B world and the consumer world, but is there like a software that you rave about that you use regularly that you want to share?
- [25:58]
A
Yeah, there's a company called airtable. So for those that don't know it, we again, I mentioned earlier about 150 clients. Some of them have 30 to 40 different elements to their campaign. So we've got a massive amount of deliverables and we have to manage it at scale across many different sites. So Katie Lehman on our team, who's a client success manager, she's really embraced that service and it's honestly been unbelievable for us to help to manage workflows, to manage process, to manage the pipeline. So I would say that airtable has, has been a very, very valuable, valuable tool for us.
- [26:32]
B
That's awesome. Yeah, I've had some experience working on it. It's pretty powerful. I think they actually have some folks here as well in Austin. That's amazing. Is there something. We've got the holidays coming up. Consumers, obviously. Is there anything on the consumer side, just items that you've appreciated or loving or raving about that you use regularly that you want to share?
- [26:56]
A
Yeah. It's funny, I've been working with Mikey from your team and it's gonna sound weird, but he introduced me to laundry sauce. And I'll be honest, in my entire almost 50 years on the planet, I've been a tie guy. Never for once thought anything beyond just laundry would make sense. He sent me over a box and I'll be honest with you. I grabbed my wife and I'm like, smell these cowls. And I've like, since then, it's been one of those things where I've sent it to my kids. So I never thought that I could get excited about laundry. But I will say that has been a cool sort of product this year where I'm like, my family has appreciated that as well.
- [27:35]
B
Amazing. We'll have to get the vanity codes out for people to redeem. It's funny you say that because you literally just said something to me about it this morning. He's like, I'll get you some in Austin while I'm down there.
- [27:50]
A
I'm telling you, Ty, you're going to feel like, oh, it's laundry. And people have said, try it. I think you will not go back if you can avoid it.
- [27:57]
B
That's awesome. Right on. Any book recommendations that you. Anything you've read recently that you want to share or classics?
- [28:05]
A
I am a huge fan of the Freakonomics. I just love that writing. I know it's a little outdated, but I still love the. I think there's a Super Freakonomics and they have a podcast as well. I just love the way that they sort of speak to business issues solved by data. And I just kind of really got inspired by some of that. And I think similar, whether it's Malcolm Gladwell, I just like that type of editorial. So really been enjoying that still.
- [28:31]
B
That's amazing. Yeah, those are always great. I definitely think that's a good call out. Amazing. Amazing. Any. Any. Any plans coming up? Anything coming up for you, personally, professionally, over the next few months or the trips on the horizon?
- [28:46]
A
Nothing too crazy. I've got two kids in college now, and so this weekend they're actually all coming home for the. There's a little bit of a fall break, so it's rare to have us all together now. So I'm just enjoying the family time and. Yeah. Being able to embrace that while I can Soak it up.
- [29:02]
B
Soak it up. My daughter's turning five this week, so it's like we're pinching ourselves that time's flying by, but also trying to make the most of it and soak up the time we have. So. That's awesome.
- [29:14]
A
Five's a fun age. It's. Yeah. I've always. I kind of miss those days now that mine are a little bit older too, so.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah, I bet. I bet. Well, Scott, it's been awesome to chat with you. I just could not be more appreciative of your time and your learnings and your perspective. For folks that want to reach out, learn more and get to know you or hit you up, where can they? What's the best way to do that?
- [29:34]
A
Yeah, probably LinkedIn is the easiest, but it's also my email at Penske is S. Ginsburg G I N S B E R G at pmc. Yeah. And feel free.
- [29:42]
B
Awesome. Thanks so much everybody. Thanks, Scott.
- [29:44]
A
Bye.