Always Be Testing, Episode #109
“Why Most Brands Still Misuse Affiliate Marketing”
Guest: Scott Ginsberg (VP of Performance Marketing, Penske Media)
Host: Tye DeGrange
Date: November 18, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Tye DeGrange sits down with Scott Ginsberg, a veteran in the affiliate marketing space and VP of Performance Marketing at Penske Media. The conversation delves deep into how affiliate marketing is often misunderstood, the evolution of publisher roles, the importance of authentic content, and practical strategies for building long-term, high-performance collaborations between brands and publishers. The duo also touches on industry shifts brought by AI, diversifying traffic sources, leadership wisdom, experimentation culture, and some fun personal recommendations.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Persistent Misconceptions Around Affiliate Marketing
[01:15 – 02:33]
- Main misunderstanding: Affiliate marketing still carries a stigma of being low-quality or “just coupons”—a hangover from its early days.
- “I feel like there's still a stigma that it's poor quality, which is unfortunate because as an industry we've really tried to change that perception over the last 20 plus years.” – Scott Ginsberg [01:43]
- Scott notes a big perception shift as high-quality brands and content publishers have entered the space.
2. The Evolving Publisher Ecosystem
[02:34 – 04:45]
- Movement from purely last-click, coupon/deal sites to content-rich publishers.
- Major content brands and even influencers are increasing their affiliate activity.
- Diversification is key. While last-click has its place, upper-funnel content is now vital.
- “More and more of these...upper funnel, more of these brands have sort of started to participate, which I can tell a lot of advertisers are excited about.” – Scott [03:25]
3. Authenticity & Editorial Balance in Content
[04:45 – 06:45]
- Successful publishers maintain a strong editorial standard, blending storytelling with brand promotion without sacrificing user trust.
- Scott shares Rolling Stone's Doc Martens campaign as a standout example:
- “We did an article on Rolling Stone, leaning in on the history of sort of Doc Martens boots within rock and roll. ... When we get it right, it comes off as authentic storytelling and really gives the brand sort of the best of both worlds.” – Scott [05:02]
- True value comes when content feels integral to the publication, not forced or purely transactional.
4. Case Studies as Catalysts
[07:14 – 08:14]
- Real, platform-specific case studies (rather than anonymized ones) are powerful in showing prospective brands what’s possible.
- “If I can show Nike what Adidas has done, it just really gives the brand the ability to kind of see...what this looks like.” – Scott [07:25]
- Brands value seeing results across different verticals and properties.
5. Building Long-Term Brand Partnerships
[08:14 – 10:04]
- Trend away from one-off content deals toward annual or quarterly “always-on” collaborations.
- Importance of understanding brand KPIs/metrics and tailoring approaches.
- Active client success management is key for transparency, reporting, and making adjustments as needed:
- “For us, we have a client success team that makes sure we're offering transparency on reporting. We're doing built in make goods, we're boosting on social if we see our KPIs off.” – Scott [09:32]
6. Attribution & Measurement: Setting the Right Expectations
[10:04 – 13:03]
- Challenges in attribution often undervalue the influence of upper-funnel content.
- Scott emphasizes setting realistic ROAS and aligning attribution windows to value full-funnel contributions.
- “If you want a 9 to 1 ROAS, probably want to go lower funnel. ... But the brands that really like what we do, they want the conversion, they want the last click. But they also realize ... that’s where I think our brands can sort of show up and help to influence.” – Scott [10:47]
- Advocates for using click journey and influence reports (from networks like CJ and Impact) to show true value.
7. Navigating AI Disruption & Traffic Diversification
[13:03 – 15:31]
- Significant headwinds from AI and declining traditional search traffic.
- Penske focuses on diversifying across social platforms, email, on-site display, and leveraging trusted legacy brands.
- “We're obviously trying to do what we can, whether it's Google, whether it's these different AI optimizations, but really we're also pushing to diversify, right?” – Scott [13:46]
8. The Enduring Value of Trust & Brand Legacy
[15:31 – 17:42]
- AI may shift discovery, but established, authoritative voices (like Rolling Stone, Billboard) maintain deep trust with audiences.
- “We truly believe in our content and we truly believe that that's at the core what we're great at. ... Trying to evolve to where the market is heading.” – Scott [17:15]
9. Leadership & Building Teams
[17:42 – 21:12]
- Scott advocates for empathetic, “golden rule” leadership—treating people how you want to be treated.
- “I always try to set the bar for myself as I want to be the best boss that any employee of mine has ever had. And that requires an individual approach to each person.” – Scott [18:10]
- Stresses the longevity of relationships and networks in affiliate and marketing.
10. Experimentation, Iteration, and Learning from Failure
[21:12 – 23:56]
- Early career missteps (e.g., offering ad units instead of content) led to better approaches and processes today.
- “Be willing to get it wrong and to optimize and iterate. And I always tell the team, like every year, let's just reimagine what are we selling and how are we doing it, given the current ecosystem?” – Scott [22:14]
- Emphasizes perpetual experimentation and adapting to change.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On affiliate marketing’s evolution:
“It was coming onto the map as sort of lower funnel and some potential CD characters. ... Fast forward now, it's bringing some of the best brands in the world into the fray.”
– Scott Ginsberg [01:43] -
On content authenticity:
“If [Rolling Stone] had a PR team that could sort of get in front of [the audience], how would they want to speak to that audience? ... We allow for that.”
– Scott [05:10] -
On relationship-driven business:
“You never know, someone could be your boss, your coworker, your peer. Right. And so it's always just making sure that you value those relationships and you invest in those relationships.”
– Scott [18:38] -
On leadership style:
“If I have to take the trash out, I'll take the trash out. ... No job should be beneath you. … With my teams, they know that I'm willing to kind of roll up my sleeve.”
– Scott [20:45]
Timestamps for Key Segments
| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Episode intro | Context, guest background | [00:07 – 01:15] | | Affiliate misconceptions | Stigma and evolution | [01:15 – 02:33] | | Publisher landscape | Content’s rise, diversification | [02:34 – 04:45] | | Editorial storytelling | Authentic brand partnerships | [04:45 – 06:45] | | Powerful case studies | Real examples, industry proof | [07:14 – 08:14] | | Long-term partnerships | Always-on strategies, retention | [08:14 – 10:04] | | Attribution & measurement | Data, setting expectations | [10:04 – 13:03] | | AI & diversification | Navigating change, social, email | [13:03 – 15:31] | | Brand trust & legacy | Value of established voices | [15:31 – 17:42] | | Leadership lessons | Empathy, golden rule | [17:42 – 21:12] | | Experimentation culture | Learning from failure, iteration | [21:12 – 23:56] | | Personal picks | Running, Airtable, laundry, books | [24:05 – 28:31] |
Personal & Professional Recommendations
On Building Work Culture
- Value relationships at every level.
- Be a servant leader: “If I have to take the trash out, I’ll take the trash out.” [20:45]
On Tools & Products
- Software: Airtable (workflow management for complex multi-client campaigns) [25:57]
- Consumer Product: Laundry Sauce (yes, a laundry product!) [26:55]
- Book: Freakonomics (and related works for data-driven business insights) [28:04]
On Personal Life & Balance
- Running as a daily mental and physical boost, post-marathon. [25:13]
- Cherishing family moments with children returning from college. [28:46]
Final Words & Contact Info
- Scott’s advice for leaders: Empathetic, authentic, individual-focused management leads to strong teams and enduring networks.
- Contact: LinkedIn or s.ginsberg@pmc (Penske Media) [29:33]
Summary:
Scott Ginsberg sheds light on the transformation of affiliate marketing from "just coupons" to a multifaceted, high-impact, relationship-driven channel. Authenticity, brand trust, and a willingness to adapt are the cornerstones of ongoing success. As technology and audience behaviors shift, diversification and human-to-human leadership remain essential.