Always Be Testing Podcast – Episode #110

“Why Great Marketing Fails When the Data Is Broken” with Howard Schaffer
Host: Tye DeGrange
Guest: Howard Schaffer (Founder & CEO, HOS Performance)
Date: November 25, 2025
Location: Live in Austin, Texas

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Tye DeGrange sits down with Howard Schaffer, a veteran marketing leader known for his extensive work in performance marketing, affiliate marketing, and company exits. They dive deep into why even the best marketing efforts can be undermined by broken, messy, or misused data, and offer practical advice for building robust data foundations, navigating ambiguity, the future of content and AI, and evolving best practices in affiliate and influencer marketing.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Critical Role of Data in Marketing Success

• Howard's Mission: Helping others succeed through 25+ years of marketing experience, focusing on getting clients to use the right data and report on it properly.

  “People aren’t always looking at the right data…helping them understand what data to look at, how to get to that data, and really showcasing how you can continue to go and win—even though they think they’re winning.” (Howard, [01:16])

• Data Architecture Woes: Nearly every company faces issues with data structure and fidelity.

  “Every company…in the last six years, there has really been a data architecture issue, and as a marketer that is key to your success, right?” (Howard, [04:08])

2. Steps for New Marketing Leaders: Diagnosing and Auditing Data

• Where to Start:

  • Review all data reporting systems
  • Check paid marketing, SEO, content, and email infrastructure (“department by department”)
  • Ensure clear tracking—especially UTM parameters and referral data
  • Collaborate closely with product and engineering to build reporting pipelines

  "I always challenge…CMOs, VP Marketing: really partner with your head of product…start the report in a spreadsheet and show people what you want to report on…" (Howard, [04:21])

• Tech Stack Tips:

  • Server-to-server integrations (e.g., using Rudderstack) are more consistent than solely web analytics.
  • Build long-term on the back end for integrity.

  “We were using a software called Rudderstack…found that to be the most successful and most consistent.” (Howard, [05:37])

3. Accountability and Continuous Improvement

• Daily Performance Review:
  • Teams should examine previous day/week/month’s outcomes every morning to spot wins and areas to improve.
  • Look at competition for inspiration, tracking, and pricing intelligence.

  “I just think it’s really important that a lot of people…not start their day with looking at the performance of yesterday, the last week, the last month…” (Howard, [08:32]) “Look at your competitors to see what they’re doing right and what they’re doing wrong…make sure you’re getting your competitors’ emails, see what their ads look like…” ([08:49])

4. Navigating Data Ambiguity & Blind Spots

• Qualitative Input Matters:
  • When you’re missing data, combine gut intuition, brand sense, and direct customer/superfan feedback.
  • Regular customer surveys are invaluable.

  “Ask your customers…there’s a good 10 to 20% of your customers that are loyalists…have close relationships…get data through surveying. I’m a big survey guy.” (Howard, [10:27])

5. Content, AI, and the Future of SEO

• SEO Is Not Dead:

  • Content remains crucial but must be authoritative and authentic, not simply AI-generated.
  • AI-assisted content creation should supplement human expertise, not replace it.

  “SEO is not dead. I think it’s just changing. And I think, you know, content is still king…can’t just have AI write your content and then just put it up. There’s got to be purpose behind it.” (Howard, [11:11]) "You really need to have authoritative people writing your content." ([11:27])

• AI in the Marketing Workflow:

  • AI is increasingly used for creative, competitive monitoring, task automation, and feedback loops.
  • The role of “content owner” for LLMs will emerge.

  "As your kind of LLM learns your brand, it will actually get a whole lot smarter…teams…using the AI…has really been around the creative side and obviously the content side.” (Howard, [12:49]) “Who owns the content to be able to kind of build your LLM?…Does that fit on the marketing side? Does it fit on the product side?…I think companies should have actually a specific role of who owns content and brand within the LLM.” ([16:06])

• Pitfalls with AI:

  • LLMs can fail in customer interactions if content is missing—in sensitive or regulated spaces, this is a brand risk.

  “Where you’re actually trying to convert a lead…and when there’s sort of this kind of Q and A between the customer and the AI…the LLM is actually failing because it doesn’t have all the necessary content…” ([15:06])

6. Evolution and Value of Affiliate/Influencer Marketing

• Affiliate Trends:

  • Affiliate marketing has evolved from “coupon world” toward content, reviews, and especially influencer partnerships.
  • Success hinges on finding the right influencers—big vs. small, national vs. local, and the right pay structure (blending pay-for-performance with flat fees).

  "I think the days of…coupon world is…continuing to move from there…future still tends to be content and really doing reviews and compares…influencers is really where it’s at." (Howard, [17:37])

• Boosting Influencer ROI:

  • Use influencer-generated content for paid ads and organic posts (“three for the price of one”).

  “If you’re spending money on creative, right…Why not have influencers build the creative, post it organically, then you boost. It’s kind of like…get three for the price of one.” (Howard, [19:48])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Messy Data:

  “Being at so many different companies is how messy most of the data structure is and how important it is…reviewing the reporting, how things are tracked, how things are reported on and making sure you’ve got the proper…infrastructure.” (Howard, [02:14])

• On Accountability with Teams:

  “Start with data, find the problem. Or the opportunity depending. And then with the data, you’re going to be able to find insights into how you can either improve something or…throw fuel on the fire.” (Howard, [08:13])

• On SEO and Content Authorship:

  “You want to know who the author is…that’s generally what people are reading and wanting to learn about…at the end of the day, you should really be using authoritative people to write your content.” (Howard, [11:27])

• On AI Brand Content Ownership:

  “Companies should have actually a specific role of who owns content and brand within the LLM…have it answering the question perfectly.” (Howard, [16:06])

• On Influencers:

  “One of the biggest opportunities in this performance based side is also really doubling down and finding the right influencers for your brand and doing both a pay for performance but also paying on…upfront as well.” (Howard, [17:37])

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:16] — Howard outlines his approach to helping others succeed with the right data
• [04:08] — The prevalence and impact of poor data architecture in marketing
• [05:37] — Why server-to-server (e.g., Rudderstack) is more reliable than basic web analytics
• [06:43] — Howard’s diagnostic audit when joining a new company
• [08:13] — How Howard and his teams use data to drive accountability and improvement
• [10:27] — Navigating data ambiguity by leveraging qualitative customer insights
• [11:11] — “SEO is not dead”; the enduring importance of content with authoritative authorship
• [12:49] — AI’s growing role in marketing—from content to competitor monitoring
• [15:06] — Pitfalls of AI in CRM and the necessity for robust, brand-aligned content
• [16:06] — Why companies need a “content owner” for LLM and AI integrations
• [17:37] — The shifting landscape of affiliate and influencer marketing
• [19:48] — How to squeeze maximum value from influencer content for paid and organic campaigns

Personal Notes and Closing

• Howard shared personal wellness changes: he is plant-based and sober, focusing on mind-body health ([20:27]).

• The episode wraps on a high note, with the host and guest affirming the ongoing importance of blending data-driven rigor with creativity, authenticity, and continuous professional growth.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a clear-eyed, practical exploration of the foundational role of data in marketing, the unglamorous but essential process of data hygiene, and the evolving toolsets—from AI to affiliate partners—that high-performing brands must master. Howard Schaffer’s industry wisdom and actionable insights provide real-world direction for marketers at all stages.