#111 Why 3 Common Leadership Habits Are Killing Your Growth | Jen Goodwin

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Always Be Testing #111

Episode Title: Why 3 Common Leadership Habits Are Killing Your Growth
Host: Tye DeGrange
Guest: Jen Goodwin
Date: December 2, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Tye DeGrange is joined by Jen Goodwin to discuss evolution in the affiliate and performance marketing space, with a special focus on leadership habits that hinder growth. The conversation dives into Jen's work with publishers, the importance of adaptability (especially regarding AI), the value of relationships versus transactional partnerships, and practical learnings from working with both startups and enterprise clients. Jen also teases the launch of her agency’s new AI-driven platform and shares personal anecdotes about resilience, career pivots, and even her college days in a rock band.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shifting Landscape in Affiliate & Publisher Support

• Different Needs, Different Clients:

  • High Energy works flexibly with both enterprise publishers (e.g., Western Union, PayPal, Forbes Vetted) and startups (e.g., dupe.com).
  • "It's definitely not a one size fits all. ...Western Union...never been in the...affiliate space...so they came to us to help them...understand the affiliate space, how to navigate it, introducing them to all the right players." (05:00, Jen)

• Rebrand and Platform Launch:

  • Jen reveals High Energy’s upcoming relaunch as "High Energy AI," focusing on their new affiliate intelligence platform, Rocket.
  • The platform aggregates affiliate network APIs, automating application, rejection tracking, commission management, and business development tasks for both publishers and agencies.

2. The Impact of AI and Embracing Change

• Testing and Adaptability:

  • Jen stresses that survival in the current climate means being able to pivot, test, and lean into discomfort, especially with rapid AI development.
  • “Everyone just needs to be good at pivoting and getting comfortable being uncomfortable.” (07:10, Jen)

• Platform as a Force Multiplier:

  • Jen highlights how AI tools are automating manual, time-consuming work, freeing teams to focus on strategy and relationship-building.
  • "Now we get to do the stuff that you love most...drive the relationship, do strategy...And it's really handing off the really data crunching stuff." (17:45, Jen)

3. Relationships Over Transactions

• Sales Isn’t Just Sales:

  • Jen contends that, while all work has an element of sales, focusing on relationships and mutual trust is what differentiates enduring partnerships.
  • “I do look at it—I’ve always looked at it—as a relationship...and what they're looking for and then being able to deliver on it and get their trust.” (14:10, Jen)

• Industry Resilience Through Human Connection:

  • Despite AI’s rise, both Tye and Jen agree that the distinctive, human side of affiliate partnerships gives the industry staying power.
  • "The human element isn’t going away." (16:16, Tye)

4. Learnings from Working with Publishers

• Every Client is Unique:

  • Jen’s biggest 2025 lesson: no company or client is the same; all will encounter unique roadblocks.
  • "You cannot be prepared enough...Everyone has their own roadblocks. It’s just gonna happen." (23:39, Jen)

• Turning Away the Misfit Client:

  • Jen recounts saying no to overfunded but unfocused startups, prioritizing authenticity and fit over a quick buck.
  • “If you want out, you have 30 days to get out. We're not going to trap people to make them miserable.” (20:04, Jen)

5. Counseling Leadership & Teams

• Don’t Panic—Problem-Solve:
  • Jen invokes her father’s wisdom: “Nothing can’t be solved. Nothing is that big of a deal that you can't fix it.” (24:10, Jen)
• Encouraging Experimentation and Continuous Learning:
  • Both urge leaders to “lean in”—regardless of discomfort or fear—especially with AI adoption.
  • "Don't be afraid...If you don't do it, you will be left behind eventually." (27:42, Jen)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Everyone just needs to be good at pivoting and getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. Right. We don't know what it looks like, the future looks like.” (07:10, Jen)
• “I do look at it as a relationship...you're not just there for the money, you're there to help them, to work closely, to actually bounce ideas.” (14:10, Jen)
• “To me, the relationships, hands down, are the most important. That's being transparent and honest—even telling people the things they don't want to hear.” (15:55, Jen)
• “Now we get to do the stuff you love most...do the strategy and come up with these brilliant ideas...and it's really handing off the really data crunching stuff that we've all been doing.” (17:45, Jen)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:00] High Energy's differentiated support for publishers and clients
• [10:14] The Rocket platform concept and AI integration
• [13:46] The importance of relationships in partner marketing
• [19:43] Startup lessons: consulting approach and filtering good fits
• [23:31] Biggest 2025 lesson: every client and challenge is unique
• [25:31] Counseling legacy publishers on embracing AI
• [27:55] Advice for staying relevant: lean into AI, don’t stand still
• [31:11] Jen’s college band and infamous potato slingshot story (personal anecdote)

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Extra: Personal Insights & Fun Facts

• Jen was a vocalist in an alternative rock cover band in college, played frat parties, and survived being hit by a potato shot from a water balloon slingshot. (31:11–32:41)
• Her most recent purchase: a Pilates box from Better Me—her new go-to for home workouts. (30:09)

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Conclusion

This episode with Jen Goodwin is a crash course in the evolving world of affiliate and performance marketing leadership—reinforcing the necessity of adaptability, transparent relationships, and a willingness to test and learn, especially in the face of AI-driven transformation. Jen’s candid storytelling, industry humility, and actionable advice make this a must-listen for marketers and leaders alike.

To watch for updates on High Energy AI:
Check out their website (soon relaunching) and stay tuned for Jen’s posts about features for agencies. (34:47–35:26)

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Transcript

[A]

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your host, Ty degrange and I'm really excited to talk to Jen Goodwin today. Jen, how are you?

[B]

I'm good, Ty, thanks for having me. How are you?

[A]

I'm doing well. I can't complain. We're in the heat of holiday time, is Thanksgiving week, so crazy times all.

[B]

Although I will say, as busy as it is, this year feels a little different than most years. At least for what I'm seeing. Feels a little different. Still busy, but just a different feel.

[A]

Yeah. I'm curious to know what your thoughts on there. I definitely, I don't disagree with you.

[B]

Our clients are super busy. All of our publishers are very, very busy. Obviously we have lots of new startups and so they're hustling just to get everything onboarded and in control so they can see how they do in a Q4 to be launched. And then a lot of our enterprise accounts we have been working with, they're crazy busy. But it's just a different feel. I feel like a lot of brands still don't even know quite even though we're here. Right. They're all kind of last minute doing things which I feel like over the years has been more and more true. But this year just feels different. I just think it's the climate, I think it's everything going on.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Valid. We're going to get into all that. As you said, it'll be nice to have a little break. Do you have any, any plans for the holiday or anything coming up that's interesting.

[B]

I've got, well, my girls are. I have twin girls in college at Michigan State University and they're on their way home today, which is very exciting. Although mind you, they just did a dad's weekend in Michigan this past weekend. So we were just there. They're coming home and this is our first time ever, it's just the four of us for Thanksgiving Day, which I actually super excited about.

[A]

That sounds amazing. It's perfect.

[B]

Yeah. And then we'll head back to Michigan to be with the rest of my extended family the Friday after Thanksgiving and the weekend.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

Yeah. How about you? You doing anything fun?

[A]

We're kind of laying low. My wife is very pregnant with our number three and so we are thrilled. Due date is the week after Thanksgiving, so we are fingers crossed and getting to the finish line and so.

[B]

Oh wow. So yeah, you have to lay low. You don't have a choice.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. The laying low is a requirement. Not A luxury. I will be doing definitely more of the cooking duty than usual for obvious reasons, but it's just going to be mellow. We're going to get. We've got some items and it'll be fun just hanging out with the kiddos, so should be good. Yeah.

[B]

Congrats. Very exciting.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Let's hope you don't have a Black Friday baby. It's kind of a busy day.

[A]

One of our friends just gave birth today, actually. We just found out this morning early and they didn't know what they were going to have. They had a little boy and so we're super excited because we're expecting a little boy. So it'll be fun.

[B]

All that look. Built in friend. Immediate. Built in friend there.

[A]

There you go. Well, the audience you all earned for a treat. Jen has got a great background leading high energy agency. Obviously they're helping publishers with launching, growing, optimizing affiliate monetization which she's going to tell you all about. Previously she's had a great career including leading partnerships at Honey, which was acquired by PayPal and just a great industry reputation. So a lot of good things to talk about and happy to have you on.

[B]

Yeah, excited to be here and happy to talk about everything.

[A]

When you think about the core thing that publishers come to you all for help, what is that thing and what would you say is the essence of what you guys are doing for them?

[B]

That's a great question because we have such unique publishers and we've got some, some big enterprise publishers and then we have startups that are very new in the industry. So it's definitely not a one size fits all. I think what I can tell you is the reason that Dex and I started this publisher and it's a publisher, it was a publisher agency. I will tell you as we talk through a little bit more. We are doing a relaunch and a rebranding which is very, very exciting because of our platform that we have built. And so, yeah, so it's super exciting. I think the big enterprise companies we have, Western Union that's come on board. Super exciting. PayPal is my old company and now one of our clients, which is very, very exciting. Obviously they're very enterprise and Forbes vetted and so they, they utilize us maybe a little bit differently than a startup would coming in. Western Union is starting a rewards program platform. They had one but they've never been in the like truly dug deep into the affiliate space and so they came to us to kind of help them with their team. They have a team that's working with us closely and we're an extension of that team and really helping them understand the affiliate space, how to navigate it, introducing them to all the right players. They're using our platform to help get all of their data to use the networks. Everything's involved. And so there's that type of help that we do, which is a lot of our platform, but then also our services and our team. You can have our ops team, you can have our sales team. We have an account management team. So really we're there to help from A to Z or very specific needs that our publishers are looking for and then our startups. I think dupe.com is one of our amazing partners. He came to us. Has it been a year ago? Two years ago? I don't even know. I started two years ago. Almost two years ago.

[A]

Time flies.

[B]

Yeah. And they came to us as Carrot Link and he had said to us, hey, I heard you guys are really good at this. I'm a publisher who's trying to figure out how to make money. We have a three week Runway. Help me figure out what is this so very different. And I said, do you have any other names? And he sure did. Dupe.com was sitting there and he's thriving now. And so it's really such a fun company that we've created because it is not a one size fits all for each of our clients.

[A]

No, that's great. And it makes sense.

[B]

So really we're able to kind of like create that.

[A]

Yeah, it's great. And I think like being able to be flexible and somewhat custom and obviously it's. How exciting is it that you're seeing success and excitement around the platform and that's a big deal. You don't have to share everything today. But what you can share is certainly interesting because especially if that's. That's an area of focus for you guys.

[B]

It is, it is. Yeah. So we definitely have started very much being an agency. One thing we noticed in the space is there's hundreds of agencies. As Ty, you've been doing this a long time. But there wasn't any one agency that was focused on publisher and tons of people I knew that were consulting and helping the publisher side and so that was hence why we started it. We were like, what do we have to lose? If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. And that's okay and we'll figure it out and do something else. But what we realized is publishers have needed help and do need help and especially now in the climate that we're in, with AI coming into space, the space, it's a very different feeling and everyone just needs to be good at pivoting and getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. Right. We don't know what it looks like, the future looks like. We have ideas, but I think that us building our platform was really to help not just publishers, but we're definitely starting with our publishers. Right. We wanna make sure that they have an amazing super dashboard that connects into all the APIs of all the networks and that they can really work closely with us to make sure that they're getting the right commissions, that they're getting into the right programs, that, that they're getting all of their space covered over like Q4, where we're helping them do inventory and extra inventory and making sure that they are on top of their game as things get more and more competitive and as we see AI kind of take off in our space.

[A]

That's amazing. Yeah. There's so many places to go with that. And I think one thought I have is I'm sharing some thoughts later this week around how this wave that's happening to all of us and we're all part of it around AI is, is challenging. It's like the mid early levels it seems. And it's an awkward, challenging phase where you alluded to where it's like, I think getting comfortable with that change or that getting comfortable with the uncomfortable is the vibe I'm feeling across the organizations and industry. And is that kind of what you all are observing as well?

[B]

It is. And honestly for our startups, they're already all in anyways. Right. These guys are very keen on what's going on and very tuned in I think for us with our platform. So I did tell you we are doing a launch and relaunching our website and so we rebranded and we're high energy AI and it's affiliate intelligence so that we can really help our partners. And we leaned in. Dexter obviously is all about tech and I'm learning tons and I know that in order to survive in any industry, you have to be able to adapt and not get afraid and kind of lean into what's uncomfortable. And so that's what we've done from the beginning. So we're launching the new website, I believe in the next week.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Hopefully. Fingers crossed. And yeah, we've leaned into it. We know that Dex and I have been using AI for quite a while actually. I mean, when we started this, it was just him and I and we brought in an ops. Our, our OPS guy div. To help us run it. And so we were doing everything and Dex is very into AI and he was like, let's just, let's test it out. Let's see what, you know, what we're not, you know, what we don't know won't help us. So we, we learned a lot and we've, we've utilized it to the best of our ability. Obviously, I think it helps to test no matter what, and, and we're figuring it out, but today we're, we're seeing that if you lean in, you're going to be okay. I think people just have to start testing and getting uncomfortable and figuring out what works and what doesn't.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. And the, the fact that the platform, it's more of a platform approach, it's more of an AI approach is super exciting and interesting. Can you share a little bit about maybe what, what to expect there or what. What are you allowed to share those far.

[B]

I mean, the dash? Yeah, sure, absolutely. So High Energy affiliate intelligence platform. It was. Rocket is the name of the platform. I still call it Rocket, but it's an affiliate intelligence platform. Really what it is is if you think of High Energy, our dashboard, we would kind of sit as a hub at the top where all the above, all the networks, where you would plug the API into all of your networks and then pull in that data and be able to really drill down and utilize it properly. Right. So what we've been able to do for a lot of our partners to date is you can go in and apply for all programs and you don't have to go into every single network anymore. You can go in and apply. You can see where you're rejected from all programs. You can see where it's been stopped. You can see all those different things you're able to see now. And we also know that people are struggling financially. There's no more teams. When I was at Honey, we had a team of 70, 70 people on partnerships. That's not happening anymore. And so what we know is that a lot of these publishers and brands and agencies are working with less. And the whole purpose of what we did was to make sure that we can be an extension of any team, whether that's just using our platform or also using our services to help your actual team get things done. Like the sales side, the account management side, the op side. We have all of that for everyone, specifically on the publisher side. And now we're actually going to be rolling out for the agencies as well, because we've had a lot of agencies who signed up to use the platform, which was amazing. We were super excited. We weren't really thinking about it in that way, but what we realized from the agencies that have been using us to date is that it's great to be able to look for new business. We have thousands and thousands of brands in our platform and we've got contacts and we've got a lot of different commissions, things like that that you can go and look. And so a lot of agencies see value in it to be able to start to figure out, all right, who aren't we working with? Why haven't we thought about reaching out to these people?

[A]

Love that.

[B]

So it's super exciting, very fun and it's ever evolving to you. Let's be clear, what we're doing is taking feedback from our publishers, feedback from our agencies, and hopefully networks as well. We've got a couple networks we've been talking to to have them use it to give us their honest opinion because it's only as good as what everyone tells us. If it's not good and they just pretend it's okay, we're not going to be able to continue to update, make modifications where now we're getting really great feedback and we're really listening to it and updating as much as we can.

[A]

Amazing, amazing, Jen. And yeah, excited to continue to talk to you and the team on that. I know it's coming soon and imminent launch. So you're here breaking the news early. It feels very timely.

[B]

Perfect timing. Dax and I talked this morning and he just let me know and I was like, well, this is great timing. I can tell Ty.

[A]

Beautiful. We love it. Yeah. And I think you've had such a good reputation across the industry and relationships have been something that you're certainly invested in. And it's obviously paramount to our, the partner marketing ecosystem and the affiliate world, which you and I know all too well. Are there some things that you maybe want to share the audience where that's really just been something you've observed or a story that kind of relates to you taking more of like a relationship based approach rather than sort of like a more transactional based approach that you see sometimes out there?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think this is such a great question, Ty. It's funny because my whole life I've always fought to not be a salesperson. Naturally, life is about sales. It doesn't matter. I've been in many careers. I did interior design, I did social work. Everything in life is sales. Whether you want it to be or not. And I think for me, what I realized is I was able to, at a. At a young age in my career to say everything. Sales. Even if I say it's not sales, it is sales. Sadly, it's just part of life. But I don't look at it that way. I do look at it. I've always looked at it as a relationship about one person connecting with you to understanding what their needs are and what they're looking for and then being able to deliver on it and get their trust. They know that you're not just there for the money. You're there to help them, to work closely with them, to actually bounce ideas off of each other. And so I've worked that way my entire career in affiliate marketing. And I normally leave when I'm at the top of my game. Tie and I didn't leave when I was at the top. I held on. I've held on too long. Normally I leave around eight years. Eight to 10 years. I'm out. I'm on year 17 now, so I don't know. I hope I have a good ending. But I normally leave the top of my game. But I think I didn't leave because I became so passionate about this space when I realized it's exactly what I love. It is about relationships. And I've been in different sales roles throughout my careers, and this is different. This isn't. Doesn't feel like I'm ever selling anything. Sure, we have a platform. We ask people to pay for it. So, yes, we are. But in my mind, it's more about what's the problem, what's our solution, and how do we make it better so that everyone makes more money. Because to me, our space, there is so much space for so many people. I think we're all feeling this uncomfortableness right now. And so everyone's like, oh, my God, what do I have to do? Do I have to start taking on new business? Do I have to make it look different? Do I need to compete against friends now? Like, I think everyone's feeling uncomfortable with AI coming and with the kind of uncertainness of our economy. Some days it feels amazing and other days it doesn't look so great.

[A]

So well said.

[B]

Yeah. To me, the relationships, hands down, are the most important. And that's being transparent and honest, even telling people the things they don't want to hear. I would rather lose a client and be like, we really aren't going to be able to help you and put them in the right direction than Take them on just to make a buck and then have it be a really poor experience for someone not worth it.

[A]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah. And I love that it's. The industry we work in is so interesting and the. I've been blown away by. People have a tendency to boomerang. And I think that's another aspect of why it works. It's like there's a natural. I think it. I think it touches on a lot of things that people enjoy and, and there's a human element to it. Here we are talking about AI and no doubt that is coming for everyone and everything with some exceptions. But I think, like the one thing I love, and I've talked about this a lot, is that I think you and I enjoy this because there is such a human element to what we do and it's not necessarily purely sales. It involves a lot of different pieces. And I think that, at least that's my perspective and I think that's where we're going to do really well in this age of AI, where, okay, the human element isn't going away. There's going to be plenty of things that are going to get AI, if you will. But I believe that the human element of what we do, this conversation, the many others we're going to have in next year, in Vegas, in January, across the industry, it's going to. It's going to be still a positive thing that we can draw from.

[B]

Absolutely. And I think more than ever, the relationships are going to be so much more important. So much more important. AI can't do that no matter what. AI. And that's one thing we've even said to our team, get comfortable being uncomfortable. We are going to be changing, Right. So our agency is now going to be services and we are services because we have a platform that's going to be driving the numbers for all of us, which normally we did manually. Everyone should be doing a cheer. We don't have to go in consistently and pull these spreadsheets. And you think about how many hours we've all spent on that stuff and we've said no, you get to do the stuff that you love most. You get to drive the relationship, you get to do the strategy and come up with these brilliant ideas to, to help our clients make more money and revenue and partnerships. And it's really handing off the really data crunching stuff that we've all been doing. Some of us like it better than others. And I think that it's okay because I think it's going to Open up a world where. Yes. Will there be parts of our industry where jobs maybe turn into an AI situation? For sure. But I think that those are jobs that maybe we were overpaying for anyways. Maybe they were jobs that we needed part of it, but we hired someone full time for it, where now we can hire someone full time and actually give them something that they're passionate about and interested in and they still get to be in the data and they have to make sure that because AI is not always going to be right either. Make sure that everything's correct and lays out properly, but you don't have to spend those hours upon hours upon hours of putting those spreadsheets together.

[A]

Yeah, totally love that. With high energy. You guys have obviously seen so many interesting, you know, publishers come through looking to get, make sense of affiliate, grow, figure things out. You know, when we think about learnings, obviously it's a big part of the pod, but were there particular like experiments or learnings or takeaways that you've observed in working with some of the publishers out there that are notable or things that you want to share with the audience? I'd love to learn a little bit more about some of the things you've observed and some of the moments you've had in the learning side of things.

[B]

Yeah, I mean it's so interesting because everything my, my nephew actually said it best. He was watching and he said being watching a call with you with high energy is like watching Shark Tank. Every call is Shark Tank. And that's really does it is how it feels. Which has made the reason why this has been fun. And I mean it's stressful. Let's be honest, you, you have your own business, you understand. But it is so much fun to talk to these passionate people who have this brilliant idea and they've laid it all out and they haven't quite figured out how do I make money, how do I monetize to be able to say, oh, we've got this, come work with us, let's figure this out. We have everyone sign a contract, but we also, again, like I told you, if you want out, you have 30 days to get out. We're not going to trap people to make them miserable. We want to help people make money, do better, get more amazing publishers in this space. But we're certainly not there to just take somebody's money and help them sink into the ground. Right. We're always going to be looking for ways. So I think my, my very first client that called me was. Thanks. I don't know if you've, if you've met Duron or.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

So, yeah, so he called from Australia. Yeah, he thanks their post acquisition. They're a competitor of a rocked, um, beautiful. They do a phenomenal job. But he called me and it was almost two years ago. I had just left PayPal and wasn't sure what I was going to do. I didn't want to just jump into a job and grab it. And so I was like, you know what, I'm going to sit, I'm just going to sit and I'm going to figure out, can I consult, what should I do? And Duron called me and that was my first client and that's where I pulled Dex into. And so we started with them. They had heard about Tarana, got my name from a former colleague, knew about the space, was kind of on the outskirts of the space, had worked for another company in advertising and so understood it. And so we sat down with him and he's like, we'd love help launching in Australia. And we're like, great. Luckily, Dexter's has lived in Australia before, he's helped launch companies in Australia before. So we rolled up our sleeves, heads down, worked with his small team and, and our small team and got to work and quickly saw we were able to help them immediately start doing really well in Australia. They got into all the programs and they started doing well. Then we launched with them in the us we were like, oh God, please let this work with them. Post acquisition. Very different than a Duke.com or Western Union or a PayPal or a Trashy or a Forbes vetted. But we were able to work closely together and help them for a year and a half and they are so successful that we've helped them now hire a team. I helped get a few people in there, like externally, like a couple of our other clients. So that has been so rewarding. And then also having companies come to us that were startups that maybe hadn't sussed out what they were doing yet. We thought it was a good idea, sounded good, but they had so many cooks in the kitchen when they came to us already with a whole bunch of funding behind it, but they didn't suss out the affiliate space and they thought they understood what they were doing and they'd already kind of started before coming to us and we knew it wasn't the right fit. We knew we couldn't help them and we knew that most likely it wasn't going to work for them either. And so we would Turn things down. Like, in that instance, we turned down some of the clients that we would love to help everybody, but we also don't want to waste people's money and time. And I also think that when there's that many people in the kitchen and you already see that there's a situation that you're not gonna be able to really control or help maintain, you should be honest with them and walk away. I love it.

[A]

Was there one learning for you of 2025 that stands out? Something that you really sticks with you?

[B]

Oh, my God. I feel like I've had so many learnings in 2025. I think the biggest learning in 2025 is no one's the same. No client, no company is the same. Right? And every single company will hit bumps. We all hit bumps. No matter what. It doesn't matter how hard you work, how hard you plan, you cannot be prepared enough for your. Within your own company and with all of the other partners that we have. Like, everyone has their own, like, roadblocks. It's just gonna happen. And everyone has their own issues. And so I think it's been more of figuring out how to pivot, how to not get panicked. That's a big thing, right? There's no need to panic. Everything's fixable. That is my dad. My dad, my dad. I called him Tommy G. That was his motive. Nothing can't be solved. Nothing is that big of a deal that you can't fix it. And so when I'm in that, like, going 100 million miles a minute and got clients calling because something's not working or something's broken or they. Something didn't happen that was supposed to happen. You just have to, like, calmly remind yourself, like, we're not doing heart surgery, but can be fixed, and. And you can fix it. And I think for me, this has been 2025, has been that you can't. You can't do everything all at once, and you have to be okay with figuring out.

[A]

I love it. That's fantastic. When you think about 2026, when you think about counseling publishers around the challenge of AI, of LLMs, of Generative Engine Optimization, AIO the various names that are being applied to it, what's the. And obviously sounds like that that's part of the announcement and build of the platform. But how are you counseling publishers to navigate that world and. And. And make sure they're protected enough and getting the exposure they need and the monetization they need? In lm, it's the. Seems like the multimillion dollar question that everyone's trying to sort out. But I'm just trying to understand more about how are you kind of counseling them?

[B]

I think the young entrepreneurs who are coming to us with their own startups, we don't need to counsel them. They're all in. They, they see the future and they are ready to take the risk. So they're taking it and we're taking it with them. And then the companies that have already been doing so much for so long and have things done a certain way, we're working very closely with them. They all know that they need to get on board. Everyone's a little bit nervous, right? Everyone's like, what's it going to look like? None of us know what it's going to look like. No one knows what it's going to look like. And I think. But if you pay attention and are reading and watching and listening to all these podcasts that I try to do and out there, I'm not worried about, I'm worried about AI in many ways, but I'm not worried about AI right now in our space, in the way that it's going to destroy us and none of us are going to have jobs and AI is going to take over the world. I'm not worried in affiliate. I think that we all need to lean in and utilize it to help make us better. We have to train it to make us better. Right? Because I think when you start working with AI is it needs to understand you and know you. I'm glad the AI wasn't around when I was in college, I promise you that. Because I had to read and write and learn and that scares me a little bit for my girls. I pray to God that they don't. They won't, because they'll get caught quickly. And that makes me happy. All the professors are not, they all know exactly what's going on. But I do worry for AI in those instances with our children not really learning what they need to learn. But in affiliate marketing, no, I really want to figure out how can we cut out all those time consuming things we've done for all these years that were the bane of my existence and how can we train AI to do it the best for us so that when we go to our clients and we have this beautiful strategy laid out to for them, we then have that spreadsheet to go with it that says, okay, this is what we've mapped out, this is what we've run through AI and this is what we figured out and here is what your Next year looks like to me. I think that's exciting. I think that that is. We should all be okay with it. Do I think about, like, the mom and pops in the affiliate world who are kind of panicked right now? Absolutely. I've had many conversations with a lot of them and I'm like, just lean in. Don't be afraid. Don't not do it. Because if you don't do it, you will be left behind eventually. Not immediately, but eventually.

[A]

I feel very similar from your perspective. I've shared some thoughts and I've got some more things I'm sharing recently in the coming days about it that I do think it can be a tool and a compliment, like a lot of technologies and just like your team, I mean, we're excited to be investing as much as we humanly can and encouraging the training and the education and jumping in and trying multiple tools and multiple platforms. And it's really, really the way I've been blown away, pleasantly surprised by how fast we're moving as an organization to adopt the service side and the technology side of where this is going and the GEO challenge. And it's been really well received. It feels like we're further along and still have a ton of ways to go. A ton of ways to go. There's just so much to do and I think it requires more of us in a way, and I think it is an awkward, challenging period. But it was like that with mobile. It was like that with Web 2.0, Web 1.0, with the emergence of social. And I think that you're onto something about your willingness to lean into it. And I commend you for doing that.

[B]

And I normally would be running, but I'm like, nope, this is something you can't run from. Yeah, we can't run from this. And I do think that it's exciting. And I also, as I get older, you have got to continue to learn. I just know that more and more and more. And I'm not going to shy away from it and say no. I'm especially being in my company and having a tech platform, like, I have to figure it out, I have to learn it and everyone will laugh at me and that's what I love. I will always tell you I'm the worst person in the room with technology and that's okay. I'm still better than most of my friends and I am a rock star to them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm fine with that. I'll take it. I'll take the loss to make sure that I have Everyone around me that's even better than me. But I'll always learn it and I'll always figure it out. It's actually been fun. It's actually been a fun thing to learn.

[A]

Agreed. And you complement each other as a team, which is amazing. Jen, you've dropped some awesome stuff today. And just kind of coming down the home stretch of some things. We got holidays and gifting and all that fun stuff. Is there an item that you've had recently or purchased recently where you're just like, oh, my gosh, I can't live without this?

[B]

Oh, my God. That's so funny that you say that, because I was just telling my family not to get me anything because I don't really need anything, but because what I've realized, my sister and I do this now. We buy ourselves stuff. We don't need gifts anymore. When we want something, we get it. I did just get a new Pilates box sent to me that I really wanted because I love Pilates, but I can only go a couple days a week.

[A]

Very good.

[B]

And I. I just got that my girls have a list a mile long. I could go all through their. Their Christmas wish list. But my Pilates box was what I was really looking for, and I already bought it for myself.

[A]

Wow. That. That's. Check this out. A Pilates box. Is it.

[B]

Yeah, it's Better Me. Better Me is the name of it. And it's got an app and it's all about, like, just getting yourself moving in the new year, which I'm already moving, but now I can move.

[A]

That's good. It's. It's nice to have that option. What. What's something that the audience might know about not. Might not know about you?

[B]

Well, so many things. But I'm trying to think. Do you want me to tell you, like, a ridiculous story that happened to me or.

[A]

Yeah, that'd be fun.

[B]

Well, in college, I sang in a alternative rock band at Michigan State University.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

And when I was. I played at a 12 house frat party. Oh, my God.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

It was like, just insane. But I also was working at a psychiatric hospital for children. I did the night shift. So after. After my singing, I would then have to go and work. And I was changing in, as I think they called it, an annex of a fraternity house. And some young frat boys were up on a roof and saw my shadow and thought that I was the guy who lived in the room. And they shot a. I call it an Idaho potato because I have to make it it was a potato from one of those water balloon slingshots.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

They shot it from the roof down like a story through three glass windows. Shot me in the back. And I sadly flew out of the room I was in into the hallway where a lot of people had to help me. But. Oh my God. So that happened to me. I don't know that I've ever heard of anyone else who's been shot with a water balloon slingshot by a potato. Do you? Have you heard of anyone?

[A]

No one of one. I feel terrible that happened to you, but you're okay. We can laugh about it.

[B]

So long ago. I think it's hysterical. It's. It's one of my claims to fame. I don't. When people find out, they're like, you're lying. I'm like, I wish I were. I wish I.

[A]

What? My favorite part is that you were singing vocalists in an alt rock band. That's. That's. That's the best part.

[B]

It was very fun. My brother in law was in the band with me for the last few years in college and he's trying to get a reunion going. A 30th reunion. He even is on the. He goes on this local news like radio show and keeps telling everyone we're coming. And I'm like, you've got to stop. We are not prepared for this.

[A]

Oh my God. This is amazing. We. We need to talk. We have a whole separate episode on music and get into the.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Any musical influences for your band back then?

[B]

Well, it was all. Yeah, it was. It was a lot of like Natalie Merchant, B52. We were a cover band. We were a cover band. I did a lot of ed. Oh God. I did, you know, all of Joan Jett. I did all this.

[A]

That's so cool.

[B]

Cranberries.

[A]

Oh, Cranberries.

[B]

It was fun.

[A]

So you. Are you a really good vocalist? You can sing?

[B]

I'm a vocalist. I used to be. I used to be a very good vocalist. It's been a long time.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

It's on my list of things to get back into now that my girls are off to college. I. It's on my list and I will go and start doing voice lessons again at some point. I'm just a little too busy right now.

[A]

You have a lot of responsibilities. Amazing.

[B]

A little bit. I mean, I would love to do that because that's not. To me, that's not work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love singing. It's a good time, but. Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah. I hope if you find out Anyone else who got hit by a potato with a slingshot, I really hope you'll introduce.

[A]

I will definitely do that. I hope the culprit was nabbed at some point and reprimanded.

[B]

It was a lockdown. It was a full lockdown. It was a full lockdown until six in the morning until there were three of them and they did come forward and they sent me lots of flowers.

[A]

Good.

[B]

And they felt horrible and they obviously did not know it was me.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

It was not on. It was just. It was a 2:00am yeah.

[A]

Just the things that after midnight. What an amazing story. I want to hear more about the alt rock. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. I'm so glad we finally did it. And you guys have some.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Cool stuff dropping. So where can people kind of watch the space that this is going to drop at? So you can drop your new announcements.

[B]

So it's going to be our. So our new name is High Energy AI. Even if you go now, you can see the site. We're doing a few tweaks on it right now, but that'll be launching. We've got all of our updated pricing for our High Energy AI platform and yeah, and we'll continue to. A lot of our clients are on there. We've got a lot more that we still have to add and put in there, which is great. But yeah, no, we're super excited and I will make sure to post something as soon as we do launch for the agencies as well. I'd love to talk with you, Ty too. It's been very, very good feedback getting a lot of the agencies to get on the platform and really share with us what they want, what they're looking for.

[A]

Lots to talk about. Jen, always a pleasure. Have an amazing Thanksgiving.

[B]

I mean good luck with the baby. I'm so excited for you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Maybe you'll have a Thanksgiving giving baby.

[A]

You never know. Maybe we're ready.

[B]

Well, good luck. Excited.

[A]

I'll keep you posted. Thanks, Jen.

[B]

Awesome. Thanks for having me. Happy Thanksgiving.

[A]

Happy Thanksgiving.

[B]

Bye. Bye.