← Always Be Testing
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello, Hello, Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your host Ty DeGrange and really excited to talk to Ziggy Capetti today. Ziggy, how are you?
- [00:18]
B
I'm doing well, thanks. Thanks for having me on your, on your podcast.
- [00:22]
A
Absolutely. It's been, I feel like it's been maybe a multi. It's been a long time coming. We've talked about doing this for a while and it's really good to finally make it happen.
- [00:32]
B
Yes, I agree. It has been, has been quite some time. So we've known each other for a while now. So I'm happy to finally make it happen.
- [00:41]
A
Absolutely. It's going to be a good one. I think you have so much knowledge to share and people, people need to hear more from Ziggy. So for those of you who don't know, Ziggy is an industry veteran. Absolutely very knowledgeable in consumer partner marketing, affiliate marketing, currently leading the WOOT affiliate program. Is that correct?
- [01:01]
B
That's right. Yep.
- [01:02]
A
The great deal platform as part of Amazon previously at Commission Junction like myself and also Columbia Sportswear. Let's jump into the fun fact, the fun world of debunking the myths of affiliate what do people get wrong about affiliate marketing?
- [01:17]
B
Oh gosh, I think they get wrong more than they get right. I mean I think that in general and I've worked on the brand side quite a bit but I think in general like it's last click, last click only sort of attribution affiliates like traffic steals traffic. It's not incremental and oftentimes loyalty publishers they don't drive new customers, they're not super valuable, they're not incremental. So that's kind of some of I think some of the challenges that we that it's expensive and I think that that is probably a lot of the misconceptions about the channel.
- [01:57]
A
Yeah I really agree and love that I think coming from the brand perspective I had, I've had a lot of brand experiences and your brand experiences is great and to say that those things are the opposite is true in many cases if they're managed correctly is definitely aligns with our observations with the affiliate work at Columbia and REI and buy like what was some of the was there affiliate story in those that you want to maybe pluck out and share that you found to be interesting or helpful in terms of learnings.
- [02:27]
B
Yeah. So let's see I guess thinking about going way back my early cjd.
- [02:35]
A
Let's do it.
- [02:36]
B
I'm just thinking about I was trying to go through all the different. What sticks out in my mind is usually when I've worked in the brand side because you're so much more ingrained in the day to day and the happenings of the organization and all sort of all the details. But I was trying to, I was trying to dig in and to think about some of the programs I've managed from the CJ side or agency side. And buy.com was the one. If you've been in the industry a while, you probably remember who they are.
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A
Oh yeah.
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B
And I think that that was a fun program to launch. I remember, gosh, this had to be back in like 2005. I think that's about right.
- [03:20]
A
That's impressive. Let's take a moment to just appreciate how far back that is. That's 20 solid years.
- [03:26]
B
It's really dating myself there in the.
- [03:29]
A
In the depths of affiliate. I didn't quite affiliate property until a couple years, two years after you. But that's amazing.
- [03:39]
B
Yeah. Yeah, I took, I took a journey outside of affiliate for a while to get some additional experience. But yeah, this was sort of my first foray into it. But yeah, I remember we, I remember the buy.com team, Melissa Salas was, was running that. Also a veteran in the space obviously and she. We came up and met with their team and it was like a big all hands on deck. We were launching the program. We had a dedicated team. I think it was one of CJ's first dedicated teams ever to, to sort of an advertiser program. And I just remember it being a big thing and I, and I think the team itself was really, really innovative and so we were constantly testing new things and I. About the team itself, like when we were working with Melissa and such, they were just constantly throwing out ideas. I think they're one of the first folks to do some like video work and anyway, so that was. That sticks out in my brain. Sort of a big, I guess positive memory in my background and then probably bigger and more current is my work at a Columbia sportswear. So I was working across the Columbia sportswear brands. So that was like Columbia Mountain Hardware, Sorel and.
- [04:51]
A
Love the Sorel brand. Love the Columbia brand.
- [04:53]
B
Yes, yes, they're great. And then working with the team at Prana too. They had their, they have their own dedicated team but, but we worked with them and for Columbia specifically they had a whole team of, of buyers and merchandisers and, and whatnot. And we, we started just testing slowly with like let's take some of this Excess inventory that we have access to. We started with Socks and let's. Let's set aside the inventory for the affiliate channel. Let's run its own landing page. Let's do an exclusive offer where it's just for the affiliate channel and let's see what kind of product we can move. It started really slowly because as you can imagine, Socks isn't going to necessarily be a huge sell a seller. But we just. Specifically for the channel. And that program just grew, grew, grew, grew enough to where our merchandisers were buying inventory specifically for the affiliate channel, which is. Which is pretty phenomenal. And the reason it was, it was getting sort of larger attention within the organization and we even were able to show it to our. The CEO Columbia was because it was driving so much more. It was such a profitable channel. So our margins were so much richer via affiliate than if we were taking that inventory and liquidating it through like the wholesale. Wholesale channel within sales.
- [06:19]
A
Yeah, I've seen that great tactic used and affiliate can be a great one for that in retail.
- [06:24]
B
Yeah. Yep, it's rich. It was great. So that's probably a big highlight for me.
- [06:28]
A
I love it. When I was at CJ a couple years after that year, I think it was around 07 when I was starting out there. Remember buy.com had such a great presence and you could tell there was a lot of excitement around how they were building the brand, integrating affiliate and investing in it. Was there something in particular around innovation that jumped out at you that you thought like worked really well, was really interesting or fun to work on?
- [06:52]
B
Oh, I don't know if I have anything specific from that. I can't think about.
- [06:57]
A
I feel like. I feel like it was that they were. From my perspective, it was like they were not afraid to make a big splash and be creative and invest in the channel. From what I could tell, and I know that sounds simple, but I think there was a belief and kind of going a little bit all in versus some of the other brands out there at the time perhaps. That was my view.
- [07:20]
B
Yeah, that's exactly right. They were just. Yeah, there was no hesitation. There wasn't a lot of fear. They were willing to test anything and everything and kind of see what sticks. And they were willing to throw some money at money at things just to even if it didn't work. So I think when you're working with a lot of different brands, you oftentimes have a lot of sort of challenges to overcome at the higher level. And the support was there. So I think that's huge when you're working with a brand.
- [07:47]
A
Love it. Obviously the publishers, I talk a lot about how the partners, the publishers, there's so many names, the influencers, the creators, they're all kind of similar at a high level. But talk about them being the currency of the ecosystem or the R and D of the ecosystem, they're such an important piece. How have you seen that evolve and kind of change over time? Because it certainly has done a lot of that.
- [08:14]
B
Yeah, yeah. Are you talking about the like the relationship side of things or you're talking.
- [08:18]
A
About more on the publisher side, like the publishers that are most interesting to you and the ones that you see as the most critical. Now it's obviously changed, but where do you kind of see a lot of that value and coming from? Partners.
- [08:33]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think, you know what, we've seen a shift, I think probably I would say from around 2016 and forward is looking at the importance of sort of content players in the space. So like the influencers using things like shortcorn video. Now we're seeing a big outcropping of sort of the CTV folks and also obviously content commerce. So the wire cutters and the CNNs and those guys are huge. And I think it's about, I think it's shifted from affiliate really being focused on dealing with and sort of those coupon sites and things like that and loyalty to broader. So people are saying that affiliate can drive traffic all the way through sort of that consumer shopping funnel and customers can go on and engage at every level of that.
- [09:31]
A
Yeah. Not just at the end. It's much more.
- [09:34]
B
Not just the last. Like. Yeah, I mean and the brand side conversion is always going to be the most important thing at the end of the day for most, most brands that's what they're focused on but it converts as well. So you can, you can work with partners in the content space and, and they're not only driving awareness but they're. But they're converting for you.
- [09:54]
A
Absolutely.
- [09:55]
B
And that's going to be unique to every brand. Obviously what, what kind of content you, you want to focus on or what works the best for you but based on your goals. But that's really what I've seen the.
- [10:06]
A
WOOD program I think about, you know that just Notorious, almost notorious Quirky, a sign up landing page which as affiliate managers I think the good ones really know how important they are and they take a lot of care and pride in them. What's the story behind that? There's. I just thought it was, it made a Lot of. Yeah, you have, you have something to share. So would love to hear the story or some your perspective on it maybe at least.
- [10:32]
B
Well and I'm thinking about the. I mean you're right, you're right. Super quirky, funky like Woot started back in 2004 and if people been in the online or just around long enough they remember typically remember Woot as sort of the original daily deal site that was like you, you get inventory from some company and it was really sort of a consumer electronics and PC focused and they would have a set amount of inventory. They'd put that one deal up a day and when, when it was gone, it was gone. So it was just kind of a cool innovative thing at the time that nobody else was really doing. So Amazon took notice and was like Jeff Bezos was like what is that? I want to know what that is and I'm going to just going to own that. So then Amazon acquired us in like 2010 and then slowly has figured out what to do with us. But I think it was like peak.
- [11:29]
A
Daily deal craze of 2010. Yeah.
- [11:32]
B
Sort of been this irreverent brand and it has a very like loyal follower which we following which we call them looters. There's forums and there's a lot of vocal, vocal folks on the forums. So the, the loyalty is there. I think people like the irreverence. But yeah, I guess I'm laughing because I think about the affiliate signup page on the, on our site is ridiculous and I don't really have, I don't have a story behind that that was, predates me but it's just, it, it's not on brand anymore. We are sort of re. We've rebranded and our process of like relaunching those site and all of that current Woot customers.
- [12:15]
A
Just close your ears. This is. I know, I know baseball talk.
- [12:18]
B
They're gonna hate that. Yeah, but that is an old, old page and I don't know what the thinking was behind it but our head and brand was like we gotta get.
- [12:28]
A
I think for affiliate world people and for people in performance marketing, you know think about in affiliate you're trying to recruit the best partners to promote a brand. In this case Woot. And so that that page is really, it's almost like an E commerce landing page in a way because you're kind of as a business owner, affiliate promoter, you're looking okay, why would I promote this brand? And so I think for them to be thoughtful about being irreverent, being humorous Being quirky, knowing who their audience is. It sort of is an interesting filter and I think it's a really great example of being thoughtful and playful and being bold, which is we've talked about in this show a couple different ways and different guests. So just the tip of the cap. And I think I just, I always associate with Woot, me personally, and I always had respect for it. Almost reminds me of like, it's sort of tangential, but like the Zappos ethos back in, back when they were the hottest thing going of their willingness to step outside the mold, really be aggressive and assertive in their stance and not be willing to zag a little bit when other people are doing something else.
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B
I love that. Yep, I agree. You want to support those places that have their own.
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A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
Yeah.
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A
When it draws in the people, the types of partners that you want to gather, which I think kind of lends itself to our next theme around like trust and authenticity. It's such a thing that I think that we love about affiliate. It can deliver that for brands when it's done appropriately. How are you seeing trust being sort of built when the partners and affiliates are promoting wood and maybe, maybe just in general, how do you, what do you, how do you view trust being like a part of what you do and what, what you're doing for loot?
- [14:22]
B
Yeah, I think trust is huge. Customers want to shop with companies that, that they trust, that they know are quality, that as we talked about, stand for something. I think even, like even more so. The younger generation wants their organizations to have a stance, whether that's environmental impact or even political. Sometimes I think that that's super, super important and I think that helps build trust. Woot is interesting. I think it's been a long road for Woot and I and, and like we talked about a moment ago, I think that there are the wooters out there, obviously where they've been around a long time, they followed and, and love Woot for who they are and they're adamant about it. But then for a lot of the younger folks out there, they have no idea who Woot is and still don't. And I think some so sort of that building awareness, building an identity and then thus building that trust is. Is sometimes a challenge for Woot. So it's something I'm always focused on and that's kind of where you get into the brand building side of things. I think the legitimacy of Amazon owning Woot as a subsidiary certainly helps. So I lean on that to help sort of build that trust among among affiliate partners and customers and new customers. That's a huge goal for me is driving new customer acquisition. So that's something I have to focus on all the time. I think where I have to really focus is I think when you are your name you have to continue to be shown to show up and I think having us consistently sort of in content on content commerce sites working with those guys where you get some new eyeballs, you're looking, you're getting in sort of the listicles and the. The reviewed getting links and sort of reviewed products, things like that, that builds trust. I think continually getting in front of of new customers with sort of influencers and micro influencers. That has been a huge sort of success story for Woot. And I think if I continue to work with those types of partners that is going to only continue to sort of grow and build our brand and thus thus build trust among newer audiences.
- [16:37]
A
So I love that it's. It's cool to hear that micro influencers and is is something that is sounds like if I'm hearing you correctly is worked and has been a mechanism of trust for, for Woot. Is that right?
- [16:50]
B
Yeah, it's. It's probably in the five years I've been here it's been probably the largest success story for us. It's. It's huge. So love it. I think you have to find your niche within the influencer world and then lean in there.
- [17:04]
A
That's awesome. Given you've seen so much in measurement of what works, what hasn't you talked a little bit about last click and incremental. How do you but also how would you counsel brands on the challenge of attribution measurement and incrementality. The three words that some people irk from I think you and I appreciate and are willing to dig into.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah, that's a constant conversation that I think you're having that you always have whether you're living and working on the brand side or whether you're on the agency side probably even more so. But I think it's, it's a constant source of of concern and a need for validation and education and I think that's where you kind of have to lean in is continue to to educate and to test. So I mean I think most brands are are trying to use attrib decide how to pay their their partners. But I think what's important is to understand who's actually creating the most value for, for the brand. So as we talked about earlier affiliate sits across the entire customer journey. If you're if you're working it correctly. And so I would always recommend brands to do three different, three different sort of tactics to determine which of those affiliates are most valuable to them. And so first I'd segment your partners by role in the, in the customer journey. So the discovery influence and conversion. So look at those partners that are sort of creating discovery, building awareness for, for your brand which are influencing that sort of more in the middle and then which are converting there at the end instead of treating all the affiliates the same. So make sure you understand how you segment those and why. And then second I would look at the, look at your data, look at your customer data. So not just the attribution data. So one thing we have to look at all the time on our side is new versus returning customers. So that is a huge specifically uses the affiliate channel to drive 50 to 60% of their of their new customer acquisition. And then we also look at those returning customers. And that is something that I consistently having to prove out and for woot those partners that affiliate partners that are driving the most new customers and the most returning are the most valuable to us. So you want to look at that, you want to look at sort of the time to purchase and the assist behavior and then that's where incrementality will, will show up for you. And then third, just test it so you can turn certain partners off and on. You can adjust commission structures. I'm doing that all of the time. You can run some tests with some of the loyalty partners. I get a lot of pushback on loyalty so that's someplace where I've messed around a little bit. You can do time based holdouts and do testing that way. But I think that's a good way to learn pretty quickly who your, who your partners are that are really driving true incrementality for your program.
- [20:06]
A
You're speaking the language of the POD in testing and it's, it's, it's absolutely appreciated. Like the holdouts and segmentation and thinking about those things differently is something that comes up a ton and it's just so appreciated to get your perspective and I was typing furiously to share and remind the team. It's something that we have seen work in different ways in particular like the three segments of partner types. It doesn't always make sense in certain situations in certain programs, but I think in a lot of cases in the case of we've seen it work well in consumer and consumer electronics and you're obviously within that realm. And I think that I like that framing of it. It's a really good reminder to people. Yeah, the holdout piece is really a big one. I don't think people realize that you can actually run holdouts with an affiliate. It's a tricky one, but it's one we can delve into and share with people. So I love that you're going there.
- [21:01]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [21:02]
A
Yeah. Well, there's a little. Speaking of all the measurement stuff, it's. We get into it a lot with shout out to the PMA for some of the stuff we're doing in measurement there. The Measurement Council has been fun so maybe we can chat with you and them on that stuff. There's some really good folks on that. And yeah, the stuff you're talking about is really similar to what we talk about on a regular basis on that Measurements Council. But there may be more there so maybe we can get you talking with that team.
- [21:32]
B
Sure.
- [21:33]
A
The other piece that's obviously becoming related and hyper real is the wave of AI that's affecting us all. There's Shopify and Stripe and ChatGPT. The news of that collaboration was big throughout the end of last year. I haven't heard a ton about it. Now Claude, Claude is the explosive trend that everyone's talking about and I feel like Gemini taking over market seem to be growing in market share and Google making a comeback. And like earlier a year ago, Google wasn't as nearly as well thought of in terms of their progress and now that's quite, quite changed in the last six months.
- [22:16]
B
Yeah, it's this constant little race, isn't it?
- [22:18]
A
Yeah, I mean everyone's like scared of affiliate getting supplanted, replaced. What is your view of how the AI wave and the LLMs and agents and all that stuff change the affiliate game. From your perspective, what do you think people should be thinking about?
- [22:36]
B
Yeah, it's a really good question. I know it's on all of our brains in some capacity. So I think that AI is going to probably fundamentally change how affiliate marketing is operated, but not why it works. So I think that there's a lot of sort of manual work that goes into running a program and running it well as of now, and affiliates are picking up offers manually and things like that and figuring out what's going to work on their site and with their, with their audience, et cetera. But I think AI will, will be able to analyze audience behavior and purchase history and intent to purchase signals and then hopefully, my guess is then dynamically match those right products to the right creators and audiences automatically with all the nuance of how that might work, I have no idea. But I think that's where it's headed and that's a pretty big shift from today's mostly manual sort of relationship driven model. On the brand side I think is going to make affiliate programs far more like measurable and scalable. I think they'll know which partners drive incremental value versus sort of the noise. So we may have to do less of some of this, this holdout and testing and things like that that we were just talking about. I think it'll optimize commission structures automatically and forecast performance and things like that. And we'll do it more accurately, accurately than we, we are doing it all currently. And then on the sort of the creator side I think AI is going to allow sort of some of the smaller creators will be able to operate sort of like the big guys, more like big media businesses so they can test offers and they can generate content and optimize performance without needing a big team to support them. So I think it's just going to streamline probably the business for them. So I don't think it's going to replace, I don't think AI is going to replace affiliate marketing. I just think it's probably going to change the game a little bit. Maybe it's going to be less reliant on relationships and more about sort of data and intelligence powered growth. So what that all looks like sort of tbd but I'm both excited and, and also tempering that excitement to see how it shifts what we do and how we work currently what a team looks like.
- [24:59]
A
You're always trying to make sense of it and like educate yourself and your team and the community and clients and all of the above. But there is a real factor of like fear and concern that I think we all sort of deal with as our human brains can handle only so much to be candid and where we are wired for certain things. And I think that as simple as that sounds or as obvious that sounds, it's like it's easy to be like okay, this is not necessarily great feeling to be like this huge thing is coming that's going to disrupt. I do believe that your, your answer is actually really enlightening. One of the better ones I've heard in particular around affiliate in that from the lens of each stakeholder and ecosystem it changes a little differently. And I think that the notion of probably democratizing some of these world like high end tools for lack of a better term I think is really fascinating From a data and like Is this actually working for me? Perspective? Because I think then you can sort of cut through a lot of the misnomers and hand waving and all that stuff. It's funny because we literally to like make some kind of big reveal or bogart the conversation, but we've got off some conversations around just helping mm become more lean and agile and available. And so I think there's some ways we feel we can do that to help support the industry a little bit and get closer. I think there's some good practitioners out there that are already working hard to solve that. So I think that's super exciting part of this to say like this is actually working. This is actually not. I don't think it's happening enough as it should.
- [26:37]
B
No, I'd love to talk more about it and hear more. It's like I think it's about getting in the room with the right people and having those conversations because right now it's sort of like hurry up and wait, you know, and you just want as much knowledge as you can to figure out how to get on board. And I do think those, those organizations and those brands and whatnot that affiliates sort of adopt early are going to be the ones that see the most success. But do it thoughtfully. I think one thing that I mentioned, like what may change is that affiliate has always been very like relationship based and I. It's one thing I really love about the channel and I think, I think many, many people do because they. People stay in it for years and it's. And move around sort of within the industry maybe in different capacities. So I hope that that doesn't change. But I think there will be a shift and maybe a little less reliant on the sort of that relationship side of things. So I guess bbd.
- [27:38]
A
But no, for sure, I couldn't agree more. It's such a big part of what I think draws people in and keeps them involved in it and what we. I think I enjoy about it as well. And it certainly has the scientific and the measurement and the performance aspect. There's some automation and tech. But wouldn't be surprised if more of that's coming for it. Yeah, my hope is that there's definitely some negotiation, creativity, thoughtfulness, human aspects of it that stay that stay and remain. My hope is that they will.
- [28:10]
B
Me too. Me too.
- [28:11]
A
With the whole testing theme of the show and you've talked a little bit about experimentation, is there a few a B tests or holdout tests or marketing learnings or campaigns that really jump out at you in your career that you want to share?
- [28:25]
B
Yeah, I guess I've kind of touched on a couple of them already. So like, I would say number one would probably be that liquidation of the excess inventory at Columbia through, through affiliate instead of through the wholesale channel. And that was huge. I think another huge success point I mentioned was working with that sort of the smaller influencers, the micro influencers and working with them through sort of smart, skilled influencer networks. So I think that that's super, super important and that has been really, really valuable for us and sort of building brand and driving that new customer acquisition. Again, I guess on the topic of new customers and that being super important via the affiliate channel for Woo is we placed a new customer Pixel. So we're finally kind of getting a chance to commission differently on new customers. We've been held up on the tech side a lot and a lot of has to go through our big parent company, Amazon, through a lot of legal. I think we, we've finally been able to do some new customer work through commissioning and sort of playing around with that and seeing if that really moves the needle. So that's something that actually just kicked off in Q4 and so we're studying that and testing it and seeing how we can, how we can move the, move the needle there. So that's probably another one I would mention.
- [29:45]
A
That's awesome. Is there, is there a software that you're loving that you want to share with the audience?
- [29:52]
B
Oh, I mean, I mean, I would say, I mean, yeah, just the personal AI. I think working with AI has been really, really interesting. I have a long way to go in it personally to like figure out how to, how to best utilize it all. But I think it's been really helpful. It's been really helpful. Amazon has integrated it in to sort of a lot of our backend work. So we, it's sort of a lot of our reporting dashboards and things like that. We can tap into AI to use that. I think as Amazon is notorious for writing documents docs every day, all day. And that has certainly helped in sort of the larger big picture sort of strategic thinking, but also helping in sort of to fine tune out those strategies and just help you kind of think about things maybe you wouldn't have and just also just moving things more quickly. So they are huge on adopt, adopt, adopt it and then use it and then how are you using it? And so that's, that's something probably, I.
- [30:51]
A
Would say that's great. I love it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
What's a random fact that some people don't know about you.
- [30:57]
B
When I've been asked that in past, I usually say it's my name. So most people, even people that have known me for many years, don't know that My. My real name is not Ziggy. Ziggy is my nickname. So Zagaine is my real name.
- [31:12]
A
Amazing.
- [31:13]
B
I've gone by Ziggy since day one. And so the gain. But the Zagaine is like, it's got a silent T in the front, so it's spelled T, Z, I, G, A, N, E, and super complicated. So it's like, if you take the T out of it, that's. It's spelled like it. Like it sounds. But otherwise, I mean, I grew up just, like, raising my hand when, like, the teacher would go do roll call on the first day. They would get down to when I knew it was me. And I would just be like, here. And it means Gypsy rose or the gypsy rose or, like, One who wanders. And what's hilarious is I found that definition in a book of roses that I got from my mom. There was a rose called Zagane, and it. And. And it was a gypsy rose. And so I love that. There you go. That's my story. Yeah.
- [32:04]
A
That's amazing. That's amazing. Nailed it. Yeah. No, I mean, we both have unique names, but you. You. I think you take the cake on that one. That's. That's really cool. I think he's just a great. A great variant of that. It just has a great ring to it, too. I love that name. Go to book recommendations.
- [32:23]
B
Yeah, so I have a couple. I'm at a book club, so I'm. I'm reading quite. Quite a bit. But I would say right now I'm reading a book called the Women by Kristin Hannah. I love that book. I'm at least halfway through it, if not maybe three fourths. But, yeah, it's fantastic book. It's about. It's in the 1960s, during the Vietnam War, and it's about these women that go and become nurses overseas in Vietnam and sort of the experience, it just paints incredibly intense but amazing picture. Just got done reading a book called Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey. That's a really, really good, beautiful book. If you like audiobooks, I'd recommend listening to it. And then I guess in terms of, like, nonfiction I've read, there's one. I'm trying to think what it's called right now, but the one that popped into my head, I guess, first is the Let Them Theory by Mel by Mel Robbins. And I think that's been. It's been a good. It's been good for me. And I think that that's like. But it was just. It was educational in a lot of ways for, like, how I think about things and how I should be thinking about things. And so. Yeah, and it applies to work and personal life and all of that, so that's kind of what I would recommend.
- [33:35]
A
My wife loves that last one with Mel Robinson. I've. I've enjoyed a lot of the videos and principles of. Of that.
- [33:42]
B
Yeah, it's a.
- [33:43]
A
It's a good framework and just focus. It helps you focus on what you can control, which is. Which is, I think, always smart and.
- [33:49]
B
Great, especially in today's. Today's world, right?
- [33:52]
A
Yeah, absolutely. With that, we can go off and conquer what we can control and not worry about the rest. Ziggy, it's just awesome to catch up with you and get to share a ton of learnings and get into it with you and share those with other people. Hear about the Zoot Story and all your great experiences at CJ and Columbia and always enjoy talking to you, as ever. So thank you for coming on so much.
- [34:16]
B
Thanks. I appreciate it.
- [34:18]
A
Yeah. If folks want to connect with you, what's the best way to track you down?
- [34:22]
B
Yeah, probably LinkedIn. Yeah. Check out Ziggy Capetti on LinkedIn. Shoot.
- [34:27]
A
One of a kind. Can't find any others, so.
- [34:30]
B
Yeah, there's not a lot to look through.
- [34:33]
A
Easy, easy find. It's not John Smith. So we're good.
- [34:36]
B
Yeah. Right, right. We'd love to hear from you.
- [34:39]
A
Beautiful. It's so great to talk to you and have a great rest of your day.
- [34:42]
B
You too. I like that.