Podcast Summary: Always Be Testing #117

Episode Title: 3 Structural Shifts Are Breaking Traditional SEO
Host: Tye DeGrange
Guest: Jordan Koene (CEO & Founder, Pre Visible)
Date: February 24, 2026

Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Tye DeGrange sits down with SEO strategist Jordan Koene (Pre Visible, ex-eBay) to demystify the upheavals in the world of SEO caused by structural changes driven by AI and large language models (LLMs). The conversation dives into why old SEO playbooks aren't working, the implications of the AI search revolution for brands, content creators, and publishers, and the emerging landscape of organic discovery. Koene draws on recent data and firsthand industry insights to offer actionable advice for marketers and businesses navigating these shifts.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The AI Wave Reshaping SEO Fundamentals

[01:11–05:43]

• AI as Both Work Assistant & New Acquisition Channel:
  • AI tools are changing how SEOs work—streamlining tasks, coding, and reporting.
  • "We're in a very pivotal moment right now where organic is being tested today... we're reinventing the mechanics of acquiring users through this organic channel.” — Jordan, 01:39
• Traffic as a Broken Metric:
  • “Traffic is broken today... Organic is not a traffic game.” — Jordan, 03:17
  • The connection from SEO traffic to business KPIs (e.g. revenue, conversions) is busted; the focus needs to shift from traffic to more meaningful engagement/conversion metrics.
• Rankings No Longer Matter—‘Responses’ Are the New Battleground:
  • The old game of keyword rankings is dead. We're moving from “a rankings world to a response world.”
  • “There are no more rankings. There are responses. We have to rethink how we measure where we show up. It’s now about citations, mentions, and brand recognition.” — Jordan, 04:55

2. From Zero-Click to No-Click: The Evolving Measurement Landscape

[05:43–09:12]

• Impression/exposure takes center stage over hard, trackable clicks.
• LLMs feed users rich, contextual answers; search now happens through devices (even refrigerators), not just search engines.
• The formats (audio, text, video) are driven by audience preferences, and AI/LLMs are catching up to handle all forms equally well.
• “It’s never been a single media type universe... you need to invest in all these forms and define user expectations for each.” — Jordan, 09:21

3. Community & Context in LLM Training – Reddit & Beyond

[09:29–12:37]

• Community-sourced content like Reddit provides LLMs crucial context, though “Reddit isn’t a long-term traffic solution—it’s a context carrier.”
• Surprisingly, ‘About Us’ pages and help/service docs get most LLM-fueled traffic, not just main content.
• Brands must recognize the broader, unique pages influencing AI responses.

4. SEO in the Era of LLMs: Grounding, Accessibility & Technical Priorities

[12:37–18:15]

• On-Page SEO & Accessibility Gains Renewed Importance:
  • Making your site accessible to search engines is vital; LLMs “are grounded to search results.”
  • “Your success in search will likely predicate your success in an LLM response. I don’t see grounding going away any time soon.” — Jordan, 14:10
• Understanding & Leveraging ‘Grounding Queries’:
  • Bing/Google provide tools to show which searches/queries ground LLM responses.
  • For product businesses: aligning on-page structures/content with grounding search queries becomes key to winning LLM citations.

5. The Looming 'Accessibility War' Over Content

[18:15–22:02]

• Data Access & Control:
  • Tension is rising between AI companies and content owners about what’s fed to LLMs.
  • Big brands may block models from accessing sensitive or proprietary content (e.g. financial or healthcare info), leading to “an accessibility war.”
  • “We're about six months away from an accessibility war... brands will want to limit or choose what AI models use.” — Jordan, 19:18

6. Will AI Democratize or Consolidate the Web—A Return to 'Web 2.0'?

[22:02–28:39]

• New technology waves may spark a return to a more democratized digital ecosystem, but with crucial differences.
• Early Google enabled small players to outmaneuver giants through tech innovation. AI will instead reward context, authority, and genuine digital footprints.
• “AI is going to understand the context of a brand, and Google didn’t for the better part of ten years when they first started.” — Jordan, 26:42
• The bar is being raised for both businesses and consumers—everyone is more informed, and transparency is essential.

7. Winners, Losers & the Future of Content

[28:39–32:56]

• AI models threaten publishers who fuel the web’s content (e.g., news, reviews) by regurgitating their output without compensation or recognition.
• Publisher’s Dilemma:
  • Pessimistic View: Publishers must advocate for new regulations to protect proprietary content from “AI regurgitation.”
  • Optimistic View: Local, authentic media (physical, in-person experiences, local reporting) will see renewed value as trust in digital sources erodes.
  • “People are going back to DVDs... it’s not nostalgia, it’s because it’s freaking real.” — Jordan, 33:00

8. Pitfalls & Best Practices for Brands and SEOs in an AI World

[34:19–35:56]

• Don’t Chase Cheap, Fast “Growth Hacks”:
  • “The cheap fast path has never worked and it always fails because it crumbles under the stress test of human evaluation... it doesn’t pass the human test.” — Jordan, 34:19
• AI and LLMs are incentivized to surface REAL human sentiment and engagement (e.g., Reddit discussions) over shoddy, manipulative, or low-value content.
• The value of authentic products, relationships, and human presence (even podcasting in-person) outlives fleeting hacks and machine-spun content.

9. Looking Ahead & Humanizing the Digital Experience

[36:28–38:04]

• “Humifying” Digital Communication:
  • Jordan is intentionally making his AI-assisted emails feel more human: “If everybody starts speaking Gemini, it’s not great… Spend the time to humify [your messages] and make them real.” — Jordan, 38:04
• The blend of AI efficiency and genuine, personal connection is the lasting advantage.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Death of Rankings:
  “We’ve gone from a rankings world to a response world. And in a response world, we have to rethink how we measure what it is and where we show up.” — Jordan, 04:24
• On AI’s Influence and Data Shifts:
  “Organic is not a traffic game... The sooner we reinvent how we measure the baseline of conversion, the better.” — Jordan, 03:20
• On Content Accessibility Wars:
  “There’s an accessibility war coming... there is no, like, oh, just put this one little thing in the tags and it's gonna stop the LLMs from crawling." — Jordan, 20:27
• On the Pitfalls of Cheap Tactics:
  “The cheap fast path has never worked and it always fails because it crumbles under the stress test of human evaluation.” — Jordan, 34:19
• On Humanizing Communication:
  “Spend the time to humify [your emails] and make them real... If everybody starts speaking Gemini, it’s not great.” — Jordan, 38:04

Timestamps: Important Segments

• 01:11 – AI as new acquisition channel, impacts on SEO work
• 03:05 – Why traffic as a metric is broken
• 04:24 – Shift from rankings to “responses”
• 10:10 – LLMs drawing traffic to unexpected pages; Reddit and context-building
• 14:10 – Grounding of LLMs in search results; what this means for brands
• 19:18 – Impending “accessibility war” and control over content
• 26:42 – Why AI will not reward cheap arbitrage or easy hacks
• 29:29 – Publisher’s dilemma and need for regulation
• 33:00 – Return to “what’s real” (physical media, local content)
• 34:19 – Why shortcuts and rapid-fire AI content creation won’t survive
• 38:04 – The value of “humifying” digital communication

Takeaways for Listeners

• Traditional SEO metrics and tactics are quickly losing relevance as AI and LLMs take center stage in how users discover and engage with content.
• Brands must focus on real, authentic content and technical accessibility for their digital properties to stay “in the game” for AI-driven answers in search.
• Publishers and content creators need to prepare for looming battles over who controls and benefits from the data used to train and feed AI models.
• The future will reward brands, products, and messages that pass authentic human scrutiny—don’t chase hacks, build for real relationships and value.
• Human touch isn’t going away—use AI as an assistant, but let your unique, genuine voice shine through.

For full context and more nuanced insights, listen to the full episode.