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#88 The Future of Influencer Marketing: Authenticity in the Age of AI | Vinod Varma, Co-Founder & CEO of Creator.co
00:23:35
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your host, Ty degrange and I'm here with Vinod Varma. How you doing?
- [00:14]
B
Pleasure to be here, buddy. Yeah, great to be here. We did it finally. I know we made it.
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A
We're here live in Hollywood, Florida, not Miami. The Hard Rock Casino. And the Hard Rock Casino.
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B
The fabulous Hard Rock Casino. I'm here in Seminole, Florida where the players play.
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A
I was coming up with some cheesy old school line of casinos that. It's funny, I was joking with somebody yesterday that we're, it's like affiliate summit West. We're back in a casino environment yet again.
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B
I walked in and I heard the bells and the whistles. I'm like, oh my God, we're here again.
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A
All good, all good. The Node is an amazing person to talk to in this space, especially around influencer and creator, the founder and CEO of Creator Co. We've had some amazing conversations and collaboration. I think this is going to be a great. Yet another learning opportunity for everyone. So you talk a lot about social commerce. What is it? Give us the background.
- [01:13]
B
Yeah, I think social commerce is the next wave of kind of influencer marketing. I think it's the progression of influencer marketing. It kind of goes back to when Amazon's patent on one click tech checkout expired that enabled social media platforms like TikTok Shop and I believe Pinterest will be getting into it and Meta will evolve, YouTube will evolve. But I think they're going to take that functionality from that one touch checkout and create a lot more of a cohesive commerce experience for social media users. And we know how much time people spend on social. We know the experience buying on social is somewhat disconnected between browsers and cookies and all of that good stuff. So I think bringing it all into one ecosystem makes a lot of sense. Social commerce is basically being able to buy directly from social media. And if you're buying from social media, then chances are it's likely an influencer that's making some sort of recommendation.
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A
Yeah, absolutely. And one platform obviously. Are you referring to creator code in that situation where you guys can be that.
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B
We want to be the Rails or the conduit to get there. We don't want to be a social media platform. We don't want to manage talent. We want to make it really easy for brands who want to Drive Commerce on TikTok shop, Snapchat on Pinterest, on YouTube. We want to be the platform that enables them to take one influencer or Multiple influencers, various social commerce channels.
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A
Awesome. Where are you seeing the most activity now on social commerce by channel?
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B
Just TikTok shop. It's crazy how they, how much they are selling every single day. The brands are really interesting, they're innovative. The, the audiences are incredibly engaged. They've just done a really good job creating a very frictionless experience if you want to buy something. Yeah. We're excited to see more brands on there.
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A
I've described it as its own affiliate network in many ways.
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B
Yep. I would say it's similar to like an LTK almost. Yeah. But with a little bit of a broader, a much bigger audience, a much bigger pool of customers and a little bit. Yeah.
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A
And is Creator Co helping kind of navigate that world for brands that are trying to kind of come into it? And do you see it as that functionality, not just as the tracking, but as the, the sourcing and recruitment. Right. Mechanism.
- [03:31]
B
Yeah. So one of the, I guess one of the downsides right now with TikTok shop is it's difficult for brands to source influencer. It's also very difficult to get set up technically and make sure everything's running. So Creator Co is now an integrated partner both on the technology side and on the services side. So we can help brands get set up on there and get them off to their. To a running start on TikTok shop. And we also got access to a, to a pool of about 10 million influencers on TikTok.
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A
That's amazing. I love it. We're seeing such insane results on TikTok shop. It's been so many clients and brands are kind of clamoring to get access and get going and.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Are you, I'm assuming you're seeing like. I'm curious to hear your thought on Instagram and YouTube as it relates to that ecosystem as well. And kind of where do you see them kind of stacking up in the current landscape of like where we are now with social shopping?
- [04:20]
B
I think Instagram took their eyes off the prize and TikTok saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. I think YouTube is great for long form content. Yeah, I think YouTube will definitely be. Be a player and it'll be. What I'm really looking forward to is I think that there will be a difference of maybe the type of products that will perform better on the channels. For example, like maybe what I can't see happening is someone buying a laptop from a 30 second TikTok shop video. Yeah. Chocolate bar, easy. No problem.
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A
Yeah.
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B
On YouTube, if you're talking about a Laptop, you probably want to take 10, 20 minutes, talk about the features and then enable commerce from there. So I think what gets sold through what channel will be relevant as this unfolds and evolves. But I'm excited. I could be wrong, but we'll see.
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A
Are you seeing, are you bullish at all on YouTube shorts as it relates?
- [05:13]
B
Very bullish on YouTube shorts? I think it's going to be, I think that will allow them to open up to a broader audience, a younger audience and that's going to allow brands to be able to play in both short form and long form formats through one platform and channel, which I think, I think the brands will appreciate that.
- [05:30]
A
Yeah, it's something to be said to be able to have long form, short form, various types of influencers in their engagement and follower counts. And I think there's something really exciting about that. Just like we think about having a balanced marketing portfolio and a balanced affiliate marketing for to have that in influencer, I think is really interesting.
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B
Totally. Yeah, I think it's going to be. I think YouTube's going to do some interesting things. I also think Pinterest is the biggest underutilized platform that brands should be thinking about.
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A
That's really fascinating. So we kind of talked about like the existing landscape. You're kind of saying, okay, what is the next wave? And in your mind Pinterest is a big part of that.
- [06:13]
B
Yeah. Our team at creator does a great job worrying about today and how we execute well today. Part of my job is to look what's coming and I, I think Pinterest is. We were at a social commerce show convention in la actually short just after asw.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And Pinterest was there and the opportunity to speak with them, understand what they're, what they plan on bringing to market and the experience, it's really going to be special, I think. And what I learned, which I didn't know before, I am not transparently a Pinterest user. I am now because I'm playing around with it more. But it is the most positive social media platform that exists, period. There is very little negative comment, very little hate speech. It's very much seen as, as a place of inspiration and motivation. Like these Pinterest boards I get when I spoke to my wife about it and she showed me her Pinterest board which I've never seen, been with her five years, never seen her Pinterest stuff. But it's all she loves her fashion and her beauty and for her and travel. So for her it's all like the things she aspires to go towards. So I thought that was really cool.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Yeah. And I think, and I asked her, I'm like, if you could just buy this and it would come to you, would you do it? She'd be like, oh, that'd be great. I'm like, okay, this makes a lot of sense. Wow.
- [07:24]
A
Are there other kind of data points that you're getting on the like Pinterest side where you're just like, this is really where things are going. I think that reason is alone. The positivity is like crazy and awesome to hear. And I'm like, oh, wow, what an aha moment. I just had hearing you say that as a reminder. But like, are there other things that you're seeing as kind of like, where. Why Pinterest?
- [07:47]
B
I don't have a full story on how it's going to unfold, but from what I understand about the differences in how Pinterest is positioned to be that aspirational, positive social media platform compared to the others, which are. And nothing, nothing wrong with them. They're just a little bit more free flowing, I guess you could say, which opens up all kinds of stuff. I think the, they have probably one of the biggest opportunities to, to capitalize on that positive, that positive messaging and that, that, that notion of being aspirational or inspirational.
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A
Totally. I think there's such good intent there too. Right. Like for your wife to create that. My, My wife's creating that like so many others are. I mean, I've used it in early design conversations, like putting things together, like I want this type of a look or this is what we're going for. And I think talk about a level of intent and a level of. I'm doing some planning for my kid's bedroom or outdoor space or an aspirational board of sorts for the future. Like, I think you're onto something with. There's a. It's not. Just let me doom scroll.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Let me find something that really hits me emotionally that like I react to. No, this is like I'm, I'm thoughtful.
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B
About something that I'm creating with purpose. Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Oh, that's. I think that's, I think that's really interesting. And I think for brands who have maybe like when you talk as a marketer and brands come to you for advice, we immediately go to Instagram, Meta, TikTok, YouTube. Those are the four that come to mind. And I. So I think there is a real opportunity for brands to establish themselves in on Pinterest today. Knowing that what they're building could be a very powerful tool.
- [09:31]
A
Absolutely. It's interesting. We talk a lot about authentic trust and like how important that is. It's a huge bet and thought around our business of affiliate and content and influencer. How do you kind of unlock that? How do you think about getting that for. Especially with AI coming and all that. How do you think about authentic trust for creator co and for the brands you're serving?
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B
So it's of the utmost importance in my opinion. I think people are smart. People aren't dumb. Yeah. They know when they're being duped. You can always smell that cars car salesman from. From miles away. And no offense to anyone who sells cars. It's just an expression.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But I think in a world where authenticity speaks volumes and people appreciate it. I think it's the. It's something that brands need to be really aware of and really lean into. I think AI has obviously a ton of potential that we're using it. You guys are using it in all different capacities. Where it will be interesting and where I think there will be a moment of the AI influencer. And I think as it becomes as AI empowers more of more realistic avatars I think that people will get drawn into the novelty and so there will be a hype and a buildup. I think that that will be focused more around entertainment potentially than commerce or sell it. And I say that because they're definitely going to try and they'll probably do okay selling. I think on the long tail consumers want to know that they are buying from another human being. That's my opinion. Where AI is going to be really powerful is for influencers to scale themselves. I think that's definitely going to come. I'm not sure if you saw what H and M did but H and M works with a bunch of models. I don't know the agency that they're with or if they're working with an agency. But they are building AI avatars for these models to be able to scale themselves and actually work with other brands. Which I thought was really unique. I don't know what the arrangement is between them that would be interesting to learn more about. But I thought their, their approach was authentic to it.
- [11:52]
A
No. For sure. And that's not easy to pull off. And I think a lot of like the affiliate principles of community and, and having someone recommend and then the structures of affiliate I think have kind of have been adopted and seen and influenced and I think we're going to see that continue down the line with AI. So I think you're onto something there. I think we're both huge believers in it. Thinking about test and learn campaigns obviously near and dear to the heart of the pod of always be testing. What are some campaigns that you've seen that maybe you want to share that are just that really just jump off the page for you?
- [12:31]
B
We're obviously heavily focused on the influencer side of things. You guys are definitely ahead of the curve when it comes to all things affiliate. For what I'm seeing. I think what was really interesting over the last couple campaigns that we did with Groupon and a few other brands is leveraging that influencer content at the most familiar point of purchase, which is the product pages. And what we saw was a, was a fairly healthy increase in conversion across the board from multiple pages by replacing stock photography. Like you look, you look at some Groupon pages and it's all like very stock photography. Right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
That's great. I get it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And what we noticed is that when we replace that with real authentic people that might even be recognized by someone who's on the page.
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A
Yeah.
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B
That instantly breaks barriers and allows and kind of opens up the consumer to be. To take action.
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A
I love it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I love that the landing page experience is something that I don't think it's talked about enough. I love it when people are finding novel, good, interesting, positive ways like up level the user experience. Do some testing. Think about what happens when someone actually gets to that page. Because it isn't always optimized.
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B
No. And I think, I think it's easy to forget it. But like the truth is is that is where most purchases are happening at the end of the day. So it be ignored. And I think if you're going to always be testing, I would say when you are working with influencers it's great to have them post organically. I think testing that content through paid channels, through owned channels like email as well as your website. I think those are three channels that are underutilized with influencer marketing. Yeah. Especially with micro influencers because they're not going to have the reach to drive bountiful conversion.
- [14:17]
A
I love it. I think one call out I was thinking of earlier but I didn't, didn't respond with was you And I love to tout and talk about how it's such a wild reminder and it was maybe review for some people but what is it? 90% of people want to get product and product or reviews from even folks they don't even know. Of course friends and family over hearing it from the brand directly.
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B
Right.
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A
Is that, is that the data you're seeing?
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B
100%. I think it's, I think it's something like 82% of people prefer like someone else telling them about the brand than brand outdated content or studio created content. I've never seen a brand give the good and the bad of one of their own products and I think that people appreciate the authenticity that comes from someone who's in their trusted circle.
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A
I love it. Back to the authenticity, which is obviously something everyone's going for. Obviously. There's been a heated debate over browser extensions.
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B
I haven't heard about it.
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A
Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. Yeah. Unless you're living under a rock in our industry. It's been definitely talked about while we're here in Florida. It's been talked about quite a bit in the news. I'd love to get your perspective on Honey, Klarna, other browser extensions and the influencers. Obviously it's challenging because you're so close to the influencers, but I'd love to get your perspective on what you're seeing.
- [15:39]
B
What I'm seeing is influencers being discredited for the job that they're doing. What I have no problems with is a strong business model which these companies have built. And I think the industry needs to come together and figure out how they're going to give everyone their fair share. Consumers are savvy and these are difficult times. So they're going to go where their dollar goes the furthest and you can't blame them for that. That being said, there needs to be. Most influencers would say that Honey is riding their coattails to be transparent and so great that they've got some tailwinds to go with. But I do think that impact has multi click attribution and stuff and I think that's a step in the right direction. Yeah, I don't want to offend anyone at Honey because I think they've built a good company. But I do think there needs to be a coming together of the industry where influencers get what they deserve. Because if influencers are driving the awareness, building the trust and then consumers are taking that information and it is leading to a purchase, it should get credit and how that evolves is going to be up to Honey and the industry.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah, no, I appreciate your take and obviously you're coming at it from an influencer centric perspective, but I think the reality is there is these are obviously these, these individuals obviously have valid concerns. I don't necessarily have the answer. The Crystal ball, I don't think are going to come up with it tomorrow on our browser extension panel. But I think it'll be good conversation. I think there'll be some good things to be shared. I've shared a bit about how I do think that we love to look into programs and kind of better attributes so that the influencer is getting more of the credit. And I think at the brand and agency level there's a lot of opportunity to resolve it there through attribution so that, that clearly each touchpoint is getting credit. Ideally we want to be able to say let's port all that into a view. Let's see the multichannel touch points that happen. Not even just influencer and affiliate, but search, social, other channels. And then it's crazy how many brands just aren't even doing that. I mean, we can save the 20% of spend savings on that alone is outrageous that we've seen on some cases. And so it's hard because I think each party has obviously very legitimate concerns and claims. I do think there's an opportunity for brands and networks to kind of align a little bit more in terms of how they're addressing it.
- [18:15]
B
Yeah, I think there's onus on the brands. I think for sure, it's funny when you look at it on the outside, but then I always try to see like, what if this happened in our space? Like, what if, what if pricing for marketing was standardized across all agencies? 2 grand a month gets you A, B and C, doesn't matter what agency you go and you spend all this time chatting with a potential client, all of this stuff. And then someone down the street says, hey, yeah, that package 5% cheaper here. And they go there like, yeah, how would the industry react to that? Yeah. And I think that that is what is literally happening right now with Honey. So I can see why the influencers would be frustrated. Yeah. And for sure. And if you play it out in their shoes, then you can kind of see why. So then it begs the question is when will influencers start asking brands, are you using any browser extensions? And I don't think, I think the more and more educated they become in the affiliate space because it's very new to influencers. Yeah. That will, I think that will unlock, I think that will help brands reset maybe some of their strategies and what they allow.
- [19:25]
A
Totally. And I think it's. We're often getting into attribution model and data, I think more so than others. And I think just getting that information out there more. I think we're all getting a little bit better educated. I mean, there's a reality where this has been controversial and debated for 20 years and I think so some of the foundational things I think can improve to be like, okay, how are we. How are some of the larger players in the game addressing it? I'm starting to see some of that happening with networks and players kind of raising their hands saying, okay, we're going to stick our neck out on this topic. Kind of hope that happens on other topics as well. But I think it's just amazing what can come from the education just around knowing, okay, we're last glit, we're first touch, we're multi touch, we're custom. This is how we're paying you. I think the more the brands can and with us helping them say, hey, here's how we're paying you. This is as transparent as we can be. I think that's where I see the opportunity. But it's just amazing how often it's not happening. So I think on a positive note, you're able to help folks understand that. We're able to help folks understand that. So that these partners from the browser extensions all the way to the influencers are feeling valued and feeling fairly treated and fairly paid. But the devil is certainly in the details.
- [20:46]
B
Oh yeah, it is. Yeah. For sure.
- [20:48]
A
Well, we've covered some awesome stuff. We've gotten some learnings done that I think will be valuable coming down the home stretch. Vinod with your, with who you are and what you're all about. You got some book recommendations for us. Anything you've been reading lately or you'd just like to recommend.
- [21:04]
B
Ooh, one really interesting. So I'll stay away from like the, the ones that most marketers have read. Awesome. I like that. I really enjoyed Bill Bryson's A Brief. I think it's called A Brief History of Nearly Everything. And so I'm not a history buff. I found an incredibly boring school. I like to look ahead. I don't like to look at the past. There's nothing wrong with learning from the past.
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A
Yes.
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B
That's where my interests lie.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It's more ahead.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But Bill does hope it's Bill Bryson. But he does such a it. He basically tells the story of the beginning of time almost right from the dinosaurs forward.
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A
Yeah.
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B
In, in a storytelling sort of way. So it's a full story. Amazing. As you would read like or expect in almost like a movie.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So it's, it's, it's not dry, it's well written. It's it's an easy one. It's an easy read. Yeah. Grand scheme of things.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But that does. It does. It's not a boring read for a history book. I've never. I've read. I've never read a more engaging history book, so that's amazing. It's a unique.
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A
I've heard of it, but hearing it from you and the way you're describing it is super validating and so appreciate it. It's a history. Someone enjoys it. I'm. I'm definitely going to have to add it to the list.
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B
So do. So you'll like it. Yeah.
- [22:18]
A
Good call. What's something people don't know about you?
- [22:21]
B
What's something? I make random songs. Love it and they're not good at all. I love it and I sing them to my wife to mostly to annoy her, mostly to get some sort of chapel out of her. But I'm very good at making rhymes and stories on the spot. I love it.
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A
I love it.
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B
Not rapping, to be very clear, but yeah, it's a quirk. I don't do it in public. It's very much my safe zone type behavior. But yeah.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah.
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B
So.
- [22:47]
A
Well, yeah, off the record, we'll have to do some of these songs.
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B
A couple of drinks maybe. Yeah.
- [22:52]
A
While we're here in Florida. Yeah, no, that's. That's epic. I love that you shared that. I do. I do appreciate that a lot. And I've. I have to admit, I've actually. On the writing side, not on the singing side, so I enjoy kind of coming up with. And it's. It's personal, it's the friends, it's the joking and thinking about things internally. So I haven't shared that either. So a quick pro quo. I'll share that as well. Cool.
- [23:17]
B
Very cool.
- [23:18]
A
Good to chat with you, man. Always a pleasure.
- [23:20]
B
Thank you.
- [23:20]
A
Thanks for coming on the Talk. Thank you.
- [23:22]
B
My pleasure.
- [23:22]
A
See everybody.
- [23:23]
B
Thanks, guys.
- [23:26]
A
I.