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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your host, Ty degrange, and I'm really excited to talk to Sydney Sloan today. Sydney, how are you?
- [00:18]
B
I did great. We were just talking, like, had a good workout yesterday. Get up early now. So now I'm doing really good. It's been a busy week already, though.
- [00:27]
A
Amazing. I. We were saying that it's. I think we're at Tuesday. That's like one of those things where you're kind of like, what day is it? And it feels a little bit like a Thursday.
- [00:37]
B
It does. That is this week for sure.
- [00:39]
A
It's a lot going on this week, but it's good. A new middle of July. I got my 45 in this morning, so I'm. I. It's my new thing. I was. I'm like you. I'm going from Barry's to the left 45. I'm like, get my workout fixed and I've got to get it somehow. Amazing. I am really, really excited to talk to you today. We've got. We've had some great conversations. Sydney is the CMO of G2. It's just the place to find your software tools and assess and see reviews and see what's going on with them. She's got a ton of knowledge to share and a ton of experience, so it's going to be a good one. Let's. Let's jump in.
- [01:17]
B
All right.
- [01:17]
A
Cindy, you are definitely, I would say, considered a champion of customer marketing. What are the most effective ways B2B marketers can turn loyal customers into brand advocates to really grow, become a growth engine?
- [01:32]
B
My first customer marketing job was, like, back in 2010 at Adobe. And I think it was kind of before it was a hip thing, and it was before SaaS. And so what I loved about thinking about the customer as we moved into the SaaS era was now it's different. You can't just buy software and put it on the shelf or, like, force people to use it. It's people's choice. And so you have to delight every user. And if you do that, if you have technology that people love, which is the kind of space that I like to work in, then you can build those brand advocates. And so I think it first starts with consistent customer experience from your brand to the experience you have in product, to. To the way that you communicate with people all over the place, in social channels and everywhere. And if you do that, if you actually truly, and I use the word love, if you love on your customers and you Deliver them value, then you can build those brand advocates. And now more than ever, the voice of the customer is super important. And we could talk about that at greater depth. But just like the TDLR is that now that people are no longer going to search, they're going to their favorite LLMs. The power of that customer voice is playing stronger than ever because that's what the LLMs are indexing on. So they're looking at Reddit, they're looking at G2, and that's where they're finding the answers. And so now more than ever, you need to have your customers advocating for you, because that's what people are looking for and that's what the LLMs are indexing on.
- [03:11]
A
You nailed it. That is, I mean talk about the hottest of topics and something we're seeing firsthand in partner marketing, something G2 is getting some tailwind on, which is fantastic. You said something really interesting in that first point around the word love. And then we don't always associate that with B2B marketing software. But I think people that are doing it right, that are putting forth real effort towards really serving customers, are truly passionate fans and putting love and heart and soul into it. How do you. You kind of talked about keeping it connected and keeping the consistent messaging across all those touch points. How have you seen that work in your great experience? How are some ways people might think about that?
- [03:55]
B
The best example that I have was at Salesloft and love was part of our mission and vision. So we wanted to create a world where sellers were loved by the buyers they served. That was our tagline. And the way that we figured out how to do that was actually to as executives and as the leadership team Love on our employees. We were an employee first company and we felt like if we respected our employees that they would then take that and provide that same sentiment feeling to the customers. And that worked. And I think the thing that is what people would say was your product and your competitor's product are exactly the same. But I just felt more connected to your team. And that's still true in the sales process. Even in the age of AI, we're still at the point where the sales process for enterprise and for mid market outside of PLG is a human to human connection. It's one of the few things that we could still say is going to be human to human. And so you really think about like how do I make sure that the brand experience is consistent from first touch and that's probably some campaign or social engagement to when they experience your brand. And now we know they're experiencing on LLMs and their experience. They come to your. They come to the peer review site so they see what customers are saying. They come to your website so they, they experience that. And so we audited like every single touch point and how do we make sure that we keep that voice consistent? And I think that is having a strong culture, how we think about the way that we, we talk about our commitment to customers before we talk about our product, which doesn't happen often. Right. And so embedding yourself in customer story and customer voice, and I think it made it a little bit easier because we were selling to sellers, so we're selling to people like ourselves. And I think about that a lot. When in this new era should you have more experience, experienced customers as part of your sales team? Because they can make that connection, they can have the empathy of the problem and challenge you're trying to face, because they've done it before. And I've seen some great companies like, those are the best evangelists. And I've seen that repeat over and time and time again. Shoot. I'm an evangelist for G2. The reason I'm here is because I was so successful with it and the companies that I had been previously. So now I have five customer calls this week. Right. And I start with, hey, the reason I'm here is because I was able to build our brand on G2 and it was a differentiator for us. And I figured out how to power take those powerful reviews and turn them into a revenue stream for us. And so it's way easy for me to tell that story to other CMOs. Yeah.
- [06:39]
A
Wow. So you were definitely a G2 evangelist before you even started.
- [06:44]
B
Yeah, I was on the advisory board, Ty. And I think when people say, well, how do you get started? Like, how do you build a community? How do you build brand advocates? Like, I always want to start with advisory boards. I'm a big fan and I've been on them and I like to have them. And I think of, you can have multiple types of advisory boards. You can have your executive advisory board, you can have like a champions advisory board. They're different, right? You're connecting all the important people in your accounts. And so what you might do for an executive advisory board, like at G2, we go to Napa for a few days, we bring in like real experts, we talk about challenges that are not even related to G2. Like, and we're building this connection and network that's so important. But for the product ones or the champion ones, they're different. They might be in our world a customer marketer or a product marketer that responsible for the voice of the customer programs. And so their challenges are different and the feedback we get from them is different. And so as many as I can get I'll take and that starts the foundation and then from that they start to speak. You get them to be advocates in your wherever you're building that community. And I was just really important having this conversation with Jaco from Winning by Design. They're I would say a go to market enablement company now. And he, they, they just had their recent summit and he was like really pushed on the user. Like if we make sure that every user is seeing value, how do we create them into that accelerator of a champion? And he created a formula around it because not only do they take it with you, but they tell other people and it changes the focus from what we've been talking about, an account based focus to now a user based focus. And how do you track to make sure that users are getting value and then how do you enable that user to advocate for you? And so I'm a big fan of like referral programs. Why not let users create referrals and get paid for it? I'm like what is the cost to book a meeting? That is what you give the value to your referral program. Because if an advocate is pulling in their network to then take a meeting with you, that is going to be a much higher opportunity to close. And I don't think enough people do that. And so it's like why? Why not?
- [09:01]
A
You're speaking my language on so many levels and to, to, to leverage customers, evangelists that are over time becoming more meaningful and more promoters and more partners. It's really central to our trust thesis and the observations and data that we're observing. So it's fantastic that you're tapping into that. And it definitely goes back to what you said earlier about the importance of that human connection. It's all this AI stuff that's happening, it's great, it's helping us be more efficient, but there's certain areas where that human element is really not going anywhere. If anything it's becoming really valuable in my humble opinion.
- [09:40]
B
Thank you. But it's going to be hard. I mean we're going to see something different, right? Like think about the pre zoom era or the pre digital era where we felt like we had to be in person and all these meetings and then we figured out all how to work a new way and how to communicate a new way. I think we're going to have another big transformation on that, too. I mean, it's just AI makes so many things easier and aligns to people's preferences of how they want to communicate, how they want to buy, how they want to be served. My mind is being blown at some of the things that I'm seeing today. And like synthetic AI and they give better answers. And so we do have to figure out what role humans play. And there's this great story that we have this roadshow going on right now called AI in Action. And Tim Sanders is our AI evangelist expert, and he tells the story about the Rick Rubin economy. I didn't know who Rick Rubin was until he started sharing this story. Rick, your face looks like you do. And so he plays this snippet from 60 Minutes where Anderson Cooper is interviewing him and he's like, Rick Rubin is a producer who's produced some of the most successful bands in the world and won all these awards. And so Anderson asks him, do you play any instruments? And he's like, no, I don't. And he's like, do you know how to work a board? And he's like, no, I don't. And he's like, so what do you do? And he said, I have. I'm not going to get it perfect. But he's like, people pay me for my taste and opinion and I seem to do well for them. And so it's this idea that judgment, right, where AI can predict things, it can't judge, it doesn't have taste. And so we have to really think about what do we stand for? Where does my experience and opinion play a role? How do I make sure that that is applied in the age of a. Which is good judgment. So that's Rick Rubin. I have another story. Sorry, I'm going to tell you two back to back. One just.
- [11:40]
A
I love it.
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B
One made me think of the next one, which is my very good friend Carrie Lou Dietrich. She's a marketing advisor. She is consulting for lovable, very hot company right now. And so we were just on this CMO group chat that we talk once a month about AI innovation. And she's like, well, I'm in Sweden at the lovable campus, and she's commenting on how young the people are and that they just want to prompt everything and that what's cool about it is they're uninhibited, they don't know any different. So they just are like, I'm going to prompt this AI engine to do these things, but they're missing the fundamentals. She's like, well let's talk about our customer before we go off and do all these other things. And she gives like three examples of just the lack of experience and not knowing that and trusting AI too much can also take you down a path. So we've got to figure that out. Right? We've got to figure out like experience and judgment and what role that plays, but also unleashing people in their creativity that's going to think of things that we never did before. So I love that. It's the wild West. We are in a new frontier.
- [12:53]
A
Yeah. And the beautiful two stories that beautifully show kind of like that pendulum along the spectrum of like where we are now, all the things that are coming, all the things that we're trying to figure out. So love that and love what you're thinking about. Just building on that a little bit and playing off of the role at G2, what you're trying to tackle as CMO. All of these trends kind of converging. What are you most excited about right now?
- [13:18]
B
I think what is exciting and also terrifying is that we are all at the starting line together and we all have an equal chance of winning. Whether you've been doing this for 30 plus years or you've been doing it for under three, we are going to figure out a new way. And what we do today is not what we'll do tomorrow. And so that is super exciting. And I've already seen just in the past six months the divide getting bigger. The people that are embracing AI integrating into the way they work. Really I'm advocating, I'm like just turn off your nurtures. Just turn them off. You don't need them. We need to think differently. We need to think signal to action in seconds and build for that and build out all this AI generated content and response systems. And how do we get this insight into the right place at the right time? And it's not going to be in marketing automation platforms that have these just set it and forget it nurtures and we have to go discover new places. And so yeah, I think it is a whole new world and we're all just trying to figure it out. And I think especially for those of us that have been doing this a while, it's exciting and it's like it's all of a sudden discovering a new. Like if you'd never been to Asia before, like and, and like you ate your first like amazing food. Like you. This just, it's. It's Exciting. Yeah, that is, I mean a year from now we'll be doing things completely differently.
- [14:53]
A
Yeah, it's, it's. The pace is insane to be testing the comic browser. What was it over the last Couple weeks now OpenAI has, has the agent option now and its insanity. The speed at which we're talking about making these changes, I'm sure similar to you all, we're doing a lot of things internally to kind of get people encouraged, give them the time, space, energy to test these tools, encourage these tools. At some point it becomes kind of part of the language that you're, that you're utilizing. So it's really fascinating to jump into something, maybe something a little less, little more functional. You kind of made a good reference to like, hey, the nurturers are kind of gonna need to go. What do you think when your mind tactically, strategically, like what, what sort of replaces that? You talked about those one on one conversations and alluded to that a little bit. Like what do you see being the thing or things that maybe goes over that in the priority list of things to do?
- [15:52]
B
Well, I, I touched on the one. I think, I think this idea of signal to action and really trying to find where those signals are and maybe it's because the world I live in. Right. Like we are a strong buying signal. And so how do you start to parse that out and really understand the ones that drive conversion? I think the other thing about that is and we did this, this is kind of funny. We did this at Jive when I worked there. We didn't put people into nurtures, we put them into the community. And so I do think like the conversation is equally important. And so the question is, are they going to have the conversation in the LLM? Are we going to create space in place for people to continue a conversation versus just get a bunch of boring emails? So if they're not ready to buy it, like where can they go and how do you feed where they want to go? So I do think that owned community is another big part of the future equation. And what's interesting about G2 is we look at it from two sides because we have the buyers as a community, millions of buyers, as well as the seller audience, the people that represent their products on G2. And so we think about that we have an icon community, which is our top buyers and the people that leave reviews. And it's like, what do they want to learn? How do they learn from each other? They want to showcase their expertise. And so it's like interesting. So if we have somebody that's coming now, we have G2AI, you can ask it and go through a conversation with it, but maybe you want to then be put in contact with a real person who has a similar tech setup as you do. Now we're talking futures. This isn't current, but it's like, maybe we can facilitate connection between people or put them into a space where a conversation is happening around. Hey, I'm moving off my marketing automation platforms. What should I do next? Why couldn't that be a community conversation? And so I think those two parts are immediate actions to signals and then community owned community conversations where people can come and interact as they are in between buying phases of their transition. Sharing. Like we still don't yet have a place that I found, please tell me if I do, please DM me where people can actually share their prompts. I pick them up off LinkedIn when people are kind enough to be like, hey, I just did this prompt and here it is. But like, why don't we have a community where people are doing that?
- [18:13]
A
It's insane. That answer gave me, oh my goodness, like my brain's going wild thinking about all the possibilities. And I think to think about things in more of a community way and that signal to noise and picking up those positive signals of what it means to leave a review, what it means to read a review, what it means to share, what it means to tap into the AI functionality of G2 and ask questions and interact. And like you said, wow, it really opens up a lot of possibilities. And the community themes come up a lot, I think in the consumer space, I think about glossier. I think they put that, they kind of use that to put themselves on the map. And in my recall, in terms of growth strategy, it was done to a T. It's come up a lot on this podcast around B2B and SaaS businesses. And so I think you are absolutely nailing that and I think that's really exciting. Where would you rather interact on an email, outbound thread or in a community? Right. So I think it kind of brings.
- [19:12]
B
Up and the in person aspect to that too. We see like the events are making a comeback and so that's cool that people want to come and share and spend time together. Maybe that element of digital has gotten us too far, disconnected. And again, in this time of shared learning, what's the best way for people to learn? And for some it is being in person. All our roadshows have sold out and they're like, we did it. A power packed Half a day. And they're like, we wanted to stay longer. Who says they want to stay longer? But we are seeing that. And so I think that's going to have a piece to play too. I'll add one more thing too, Ty. And this all goes into the same thread and I'm sure it's also been talked about at your podcast. But that brand, brand has to make a comeback and because that is what is still going to be influenced and stand out, especially in this time of insane innovation. So you mentioned glossier. I think of like somebody that did it really well in our space was Clay. They went and they hired like 75 influencers in a month period. And all of a sudden they went from nobody to somebody. And they're changing the way that they talk about their sellers or go to market engineers. Like they're creating roles and their brand's really fun. Right. They're called Sculpt, their number one partners kiln, you know, having fun with brand too. But I do think that where we kind of cheated for the last little while and didn't invest in brand and everybody could just go buy demand. You can't anymore. And so if we've got to swing that pendulum back and really be thinking about like brand building at the same time.
- [20:53]
A
Yeah, no, I think that's spot on. It's such a great call out. And it does. It builds a mode, it creates stickiness. It helps in so many ways. From the data side, I love that you've obviously learned a ton. You're learning a ton. We're talking about learnings. It's a huge theme for the pod. What was something that in your sales loft experience that really hit home for you that you kind of take with you from a learnings perspective?
- [21:17]
B
I think it, it. There's a couple of things and, and it also can tie now, like if you can be part of a movement where the market momentum is greater than your company. So for sales, that was the rise of the sdr, right? There was a new function being developed and we were changing the way that companies generated pipeline and connected with customers. So it was just a snowball of like a rolling shift. And so when that momentum happens, that you can grab onto it and like help accelerate. Like, those are the kinds of companies I look for. Like, obviously the shift now is AI. It's so much AI. But like, how do you start to see around the corner of what that could possibly be? And so I think about agents and agent forces being developed and like, what do they need to be Trained on, they need to be trained on high quality data sets. Be that your internal data set. But it's not enough. You need third party data sets or like G2 is a perfect example of like we understand the categories, all the players in the categories, what users want. And so it's like our data set is perfect for training agents. And so like I'm always trying to look at the next wave ahead and what can you connect onto. And, and I think that part of like innovation is, is where I like like the company size, I like to go, I like the like the 25 million to 200 million run and hyper growth and all that goes with that. It's way, it's way more fun I'll tell you.
- [22:43]
A
I love that. Yeah, no, it's amazing. It's amazing. It's a great place to be and it totally aligns. Are there certain kind of strategic like mind shit, mindset shifts or things that you're seeing that you kind of alluded to a number of them thinking about scale, right? You talk about going from that 20 to 200 plus. That's pretty powerful growth. Are there certain kind of mindset shifts that you think are required to do that, to really scale? And you've kind of touched on some of those themes. But I'd love to hear maybe more about how do you counsel people on that.
- [23:17]
B
I think there's two, maybe there's three areas that I would say like if I was talking to a founder that are super important. I think the first one that is super important is the one that stays consistent. That is culture and vision. And so the company you're establishing and what you stand for and how you hold your teams accountable, that to me is like what you stand for is the vision. How you're going to go change the world and culture is what connects you and your customers. This, this idea of a shared sense of purpose. And so the successful companies I've seen are very strong and committed to that and it's unwavering. And so that's number one. I think number two in hyper growth is that getting very comfortable with rapid change and you can train people on how to embrace and understand change. We used to joke at sales office like hey, if you don't like the chair you're sitting in, don't worry in four weeks it's gonna move again cause we're gonna hire another 40 people and or constantly moving dust and changing. Drata was the same. I mean Drata, I was there for just a year, but I mean we went from 30 million to like almost 70 by the time I left 100, like within a year and a half. It was insane change. And so it's like you're in constant movement, so don't get too comfortable. I think the last thing is that there are natural breakpoints. And so what gets you to 50 is not the same that gets you to a hundred. From 100 to 250. Totally different mindset shift. And so I think that's one of the hardest things for, for like founders and, and like how do they go from founder led and I know that's a big thing right now to then like empowering teams and getting to scale in a way that is efficient and effective. And so really thinking through those, those that, that time and like the leadership team you hire and that whole thing of change too, like I've had to be part of like somebody's reached the maximum of their capacity and it's not their fault, it's the company's grown beyond what they're at. And so how do you manage your teams? How do you hire the right talent at the right point of the company's inflection? And then the things that people don't like systems and processes, but they're necessary when you start to get bigger because predictability matters. And so you, you can't just stay in chaos when you get bigger and bigger. There does need to be some controls put in place to make the scale more efficient because you can't just keep hiring people and so operational people that start to think through that and start building the operational processes that run the company. Which doesn't sound fun, but it's so necessary.
- [25:55]
A
Yeah, I love all that. I mean, amazingly good answer. A lot in there to unpack and you know, the, the culture.
- [26:02]
B
Seen it too many times. Yeah.
- [26:04]
A
The operational piece, it's, it's really amazing. I love it. Thinking through. We talked about this a little bit, right. The, the lovely topic of alignment of sales and marketing and product and obviously you're trying to move at pace. You've got your go to market strategies, the topics of kind of like unifying and breaking down silos. What have you seen work there? What do you. What do you see? You've probably lived that many times over. What have you seen work well there? Maybe what have you seen not work well there?
- [26:32]
B
I was going to say it works less well than well is my experience. The thing that I've seen work well, we'll start there is really making sure you have alignment at the leadership level. And so that is like what is the conversation that's had? Does everybody have an equal voice? And as we decide what we're going to do and more importantly what we're not going to do, do we have clarity on that and then keeping that alignment going. So however fast you're growing is how often you have to go back and revisit those, the key initiatives of the company and regardless of the company size. And I've worked in billion dollar business units and I've been in $10 million startups. Three. The magic answer is three. And whenever you go like beyond three, like strategic OKRs or strategic initiatives, I've seen seven, I've seen 10. You never achieve that. And so I think the hardest part of being great leaders is ruthless prioritization and focus and then aligning around that and that's like, how are we going to grow? Where is, what's the core of our business? Whatever those things are. A lot of times I like to see like the 702010 rule or at G2, we talk about the three horizons, like how do you weed those down? So everybody in the company has clarity around what the priorities and initiatives are so they can align to it. So that's when it works. And to me that is a conversation. I don't know if you've had Sangram Varre on your podcast yet. He wrote a book called Move. Geoffrey Moore was part of that. And so that's kind of the philosophy that I've aligned to as well. I teach a class on it in Pavilion CMO school. So that kind of strategic alignment is the foundation I believe for go to market efficiency and effectiveness. When it doesn't work, it's everybody gets a vote, everybody's project gets initiated and then there's individual ownership of different things. But the teams aren't cross collaborating. Another thing that breaks is when you have a new leader come in, you have to realign because they need to be part of the conversation too. And so if you don't go back and facilitate that same conversation of like, here's our priorities, these are why our priorities. Do you have new input? Oh, you do. Like let's take that input and then let's. Do we need to do a reset on our strategic initiatives for this year or are we just going to put that like as a test pilot and then when it's time. So again like do you do it every six months? Do you do it every year? It depends on the velocity of the company. But that would be key learnings too is like when new people come in A lot of times it breaks. Yeah, love that.
- [29:03]
A
And speaking of those like big pivotal moments, like new people come in. Have you had success or seen examples where change needs to happen at the hey, our yearly goal planning session or our strategy or our core KPIs. I'm curious in your experience how you've, you know, seen those. Okay, we have to, I hate to use an over overused term like pivot, but we have to make some material changes to like our hiring, our strategy, our brand, our goals for the year. How have you seen that work and not work going back to what we shared earlier?
- [29:42]
B
Well, I would say that I grew up at Adobe, I spent 17 years at Adobe. And so I think when I started maybe we're a billion, when I left around 5 billion went from 3,700 employees to I think there were 12, 12,000 when, when I left in, in 2011. And so we had like a operating rhythm to the business where our three year planning would start in, in June, we'd present it in September and then the operational planning would happen. And they just had some metrics. It's like, what is the expected growth for different types of products? Is it an incubator product? Is it a mature product? And if it wasn't maintaining the growth trajectory then it would go into like I joked I would call it to the pasture. But they'd strip out all of the investment and they'd move the development to India and figure out what's the smallest set of people to maintain that product that's still growing at 10% a year, but just not a strategic investment anymore. And therefore the team would be impacted that. And so we made those trade offs and there was, it was like every October you're kind of waiting to see is my product going to make it or not. And so at one point we're like, okay, we're not going to do a rift this year. But I think that's also healthy business. You have to like, what are my top, like you got to let, you got to do the nine boxes. You got to like where is the bottom 5%? And how do you continually manage that from a people perspective but also from a product perspective, like are those these products growing at the level that we need them to? And if not, we have to be ruthless enough of like, then maybe we sell it or we sunset it or like stop maintenance so we can reallocate those resources and it. And again, it's hard when it's like somebody's pet project. And so how do you bring the objectivity and data to the conversation and to make those hard trade offs. I'm like, that's why we get paid the big bucks. If we say it's easy to say yes to everything, it's hard to say no and it's hard to make those trade offs. But again like how do you keep the focus on, on the right areas of the business?
- [31:38]
A
Yeah. So it's just have those crucial conversations at a time when it's difficult. Speaking of crucial conversations, these high growth environments are not exactly calm and chill and easy and they can be intense. We've talked about this a bit in terms of burnout, making sure energy is being managed effectively. What are some practical things that you've seen, some changes that you've made where this made a significant difference, this helped you, your team. Love to learn more about that.
- [32:05]
B
Yes, I think I posted this on my LinkedIn. I commuted from San Francisco to Atlanta for 4 years every other week. So sales opt was in Atlanta. I was constantly on the road. I had two little kids and I loved every single second. We did stand ups at 6:20 in the morning and then I'd have an event in the evening. But it was also the most rewarding job I've ever had. But I after the fourth year we just did our rebrand. I was like, can I commit to another chapter like. And I was like I just didn't have the energy left. And energy is kind of part of my secret weapon. Like I'm an 8 with a 7 wing on an enneagram. So I'm like a challenger but also an enthusiast or I'm like a di and disc decisive but also exciting. So I get like, I process things, I make a decision and I'm like cheerleading it on to the next. But that's a lot of energy. And so I ended up having to take a year and a half off. I did some consulting but still it was. And what I learned in that year and a half was energy and energy management. I had an awesome acupuncturist and I just like. And I had some physical things that actually shut me down. So my body forced me to do this. And so now I'm just much more cognizant of energy. What do I take energy? Where do I get energy? I color code my calendar for this. This is me giving energy. And so I can't go back to back anymore. I can't go back to back anymore. So now I need to have like a half an hour where I'm just like doing focus work or an easier meeting. Otherwise, I'll even like. And now I'm truly feeling like I'll be like, I got to go take a nap. I'm like the queen of power naps now. And working from home makes it super easy. But even in. In workplaces, like, people are going to dinner, I'm like, I just need to run back to the hotel. I'll lay down for half an hour. I'll be the first one to leave the party versus the last one to stay. Like, I just can't do it anymore. And so that's. Yeah, that's fun. And when I could, but. But now I just have to manage things differently.
- [34:06]
A
No, 100%. It's. It's fascinating to see, like, where people draw their energy from where. Where it kind of becomes super easy. Are there things that you find in the work world that you're just like, okay, I can do that for hours on end, but this thing over here, not so much?
- [34:23]
B
Well, I was gonna take it in a different direction, and I wish I could remember the name of the person that I learned it from, but it was something also. It's like, where you draw your energy from your environment. And so you imagine. I was listening to this podcast, and it's like when you close your eyes and imagine yourself somewhere, where are you? Are you. Are you at the beach? Are you in the mountains? In an urban setting? And so how do you put yourself in those environments where you regain your energy? It's one of the reasons I just recently moved. Like, I did not. I was, like, so tired of sitting in that same chair, looking at my neighbor's backyard. And now I have, like, this beautiful, beautiful place that I get to, and I notice that I feel different when I'm here. And I think you can do that in your workplace, too. I think you really do need to evaluate and be like, am I being challenged by the work? And so do I get fulfillment from the work I'm doing? Does it tap into my motivated ability, which is, like, the thing I enjoy doing? Therefore, it's a good fit. And so it's part of a evaluation framework that. That I've learned as well around fit. It's called the 6T framework. And so you look at those things and does what. What your criteria? Does it match the criteria of the company? And you can go back and check as the company changes, because dynamics do change, pressure intensifies as you continue to perform well, leaders change. And so I just. Thankfully, at this point, I've been doing this long enough that I Think I've hopefully established reputation. I've just made some decisions where it's like, this isn't the place for me anymore. And you know, I don't stay where before. I probably felt like I had to, to prove like that I could do it. But I just don't feel that same way anymore, thankfully.
- [36:03]
A
Yeah, no, it's brilliant. And I think as we get wiser and older and smarter and all those things, you've got a lot of data to draw from and your instincts sometimes are quite a good data set to consider as you gather all that information and make those calls. But it makes sense that even when.
- [36:20]
B
You'Re talking to young people. Right.
- [36:21]
A
Ye.
- [36:22]
B
They both my kids are going into college and it's like, find what you love doing. It will never be work. And that has been the case for me. I love talking about marketing and people have been like, should you be a CEO? I'm like, I don't wanna be a CEO. That's a tough job. You know that and right. Like, I love what I do and I get great fulfillment out of it. I love like going from a creative where, like creative session where we're ideating directly to talk about budget and budget management. Like tickle that side of the brain. And like I always say, like, the brain hurt meetings too. Like solving tough challenges. I love doing that. And so I've been lucky enough to pick the job for me and I could even feel it. When I came to G2, Drata was a security company. I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna, you know, like, that's my thing. It wasn't my thing. Like I just couldn't get as excited talking about governance, risk and compliance as I can about like buying signals. And so that's also what you learn as you go through your career. If you have passion for, for your job, if you truly believe in the product or the company that you're representing, then it's easy.
- [37:29]
A
Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, I think there's like an interesting balance depending on who you talk to about that whole pursuit of what makes you happy. Obviously it has to be somewhat commercially viable, but once you're in that field, generally, like going to those things is really powerful and like finding joy in things that you maybe didn't realize you found joy in. I think it's just, it's, it's great and it comes through.
- [37:53]
B
I was like, I'm back with my people. Like, I feel good. Like I love going to events now.
- [37:58]
A
Yeah, no, that's Huge. I mean, gosh, it just. People can read it. People can tell. When you see something, you're excited, you're into it. It's just. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing to watch if anyone's in that zone. So I love it. But what a great place to kind of like come into our home stretch and take us home. Some of the things about you, Sydney, personally, this has just been amazing. So many awesome conversation and learnings and data and thoughts. What's something that people just might not know about you?
- [38:30]
B
I'm not. I usually do. What? I usually do the same one each time, which is. I say I grew up on a. On a cattle ranch, but I think maybe the one that's currently the most prevalent because I just moved into a new house is like, I am organized ocd. Like, I have to like, almost like move something. So everything is not absolutely perfect. Like, you should see my pantry right now. It's so gorgeous. My closet is like meticulously organized. I say that.
- [38:57]
A
Love it.
- [38:57]
B
That might be my next career is to be a professional closet organizer. So that's what.
- [39:02]
A
All right. Might need your services at some point. We'll also have to talk about the cattle ranch thing because I think there may be some good overlapping shared experience there.
- [39:12]
B
Okay.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah. Round barn labs and all. We have lots to talk about.
- [39:16]
B
You ran what?
- [39:17]
A
Round Barn labs was partially influenced by growing up on a ranch. There was a cool round barn near our family ranch where we grew up. Worked on a. Grew up on a working ranch as well. So we'll have to talk about that.
- [39:30]
B
What kind of cattle ranch?
- [39:31]
A
Cattle for a little while, then mostly horses. Some basic farm animal petting zoo type stuff. But yeah, it was pretty interesting.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah, we were, we were a. About 750 head of cattle and 1000 acres of grain farming. And the true story in there, though, is that it was in the mid-80s when farm aid was happening and so we couldn't make it.
- [39:57]
A
Wow.
- [39:57]
B
So my true story, my humble beginnings, is we worked our butts off and had to sell everything. And so when you've lived through that, your appreciation for hard work, but also your appreciation for money and what it's like to lose everything. Like, sorry, I'm trying not to get emotional, but I was 13, watched my parents and me go through it too. Like, I worked every day. And so you just, you have a different outlook on life after that. Yeah.
- [40:26]
A
That's amazing, Sydney. Wow. Yeah, that is. I mean, I say working ranch, that's a whole nother level. Of that's the real deal. Where were you based?
- [40:35]
B
Northeast Washington state.
- [40:36]
A
Wow.
- [40:37]
B
North of Spokane, like right at the Canadian border.
- [40:39]
A
Wow. We have lots to talk about. I did not go through that level. And that's an insane. And I can only the level of appreciation and values you take is real and appreciated. Definitely understand something.
- [40:52]
B
It is. Yeah. I have two older brothers. We're all, you know, super hardworking, very, you know, had created successful careers. And I attribute it to that. Like, never been afraid of hard work. Yeah.
- [41:02]
A
Yeah. That's unbelievable. It clearly shows and it's been a testament to your success. That's awesome. Wow. I feel like we even have an old pot about that. But that's another story. Do you have any fun reads or book recommendations that you're just like, oh, man, I gotta share with the audience.
- [41:16]
B
I wish I was a great reader, but I am addicted to the Smart List podcast. So if you.
- [41:23]
A
My wife loves that. You heard about it recently?
- [41:26]
B
Oh, yeah. So I drive from Northern California to Southern California often, which is about an eight and a half hour drive, and it just flies by. And even a funnier story is. So when it first came out, it was during the pandemic and I got a dog like everybody else did in the pandemic. And so it's like I go for walks with my dog and then I'd start listening to Smart Listen and I've got this fun, you know, I'm like laughing and like people are like smiling back. And I'd never had people smile back at me before. Like, I used to watch my walk my dog, I'm sure with resting the chase. And now I'm like smiling and laughing and like seeing the interaction of the people, like with that. And so, yeah, I'm just a huge fan. Like, I just sit in the car and laugh and like feel like I know those three guys and have met and learned. Like, you know, it fits well for my Bravo life, which I also. That's my other secret is like, I'm addicted to Bravo.
- [42:16]
A
So amazing.
- [42:17]
B
I'm good at trivia in those categories.
- [42:19]
A
Yeah, well, let me know. We'll do trivia night because it's one of my favorites. Or trivia at some point because it's a good time. It's just a good time. That is awesome. Well, I'll have to share that. My wife will get a kick out of that. She's a huge fan. I hear all the stories of. She's like, oh, this happened on Smart List. This happened. They're so funny.
- [42:38]
B
They did this Gordon Ramsay was the latest one I watched or listened to. So now I know and I've like, again, watched him on TV shows. So I love it. Like, yeah, it's super interesting.
- [42:47]
A
Amazing. Sydney, you absolutely nailed it. It was such a fun, informative conversation. Like one of my favorites. Where can people find you and learn more and connect with you?
- [42:58]
B
Please, on, on LinkedIn. Follow me. And I do say that I, I do respond to DMs, so I try to be as helpful as possible to our community. And if there's something I can do to help, I do really try. Come follow me there and if I can do something, DM me.
- [43:15]
A
Amazing. So cool. Thank you so much and see you soon.
- [43:19]
B
Thank you.