American Traitors: Axis Sally

Summary

AMERICAN HISTORY HIT
Episode: American Traitors: Axis Sally
Host: Don Wildman | Guest: Professor Michael Flam (Ohio State University)
Original release: August 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the story of Mildred Gillers, known as "Axis Sally," one of the most infamous American propagandists for Nazi Germany during World War II. Through an engaging discussion between host Don Wildman and Professor Michael Flam, an expert in 20th-century American political history, listeners explore Gillers’ troubled personal background, her trajectory from Maine to Berlin, her controversial broadcasts, arrest and trial for treason, and her legacy in American history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Axis Sally: Introduction and Context

• The episode starts by examining the role of propaganda in wartime: “If guns and artillery are designed to destroy walls, machinery, and people, then propaganda targets hearts and minds.” (Don Wildman, 01:53)
• Mildred Gillers, an American who became a Nazi propagandist in WWII, is the focal point.
• Professor Flam’s expertise is introduced, including his 2017 lecture on Gillers.

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2. Mildred Gillers’ Early Life and Path to Germany

• Born in Portland, Maine, 1900; experienced a difficult childhood with an abusive, alcoholic stepfather.
• Studied drama and German at Ohio Wesleyan University (1918–1922), but left without earning a degree.
• Ambitions in acting led her to NYC, then Algiers (following a lover, Bernard Metz, a British Jewish diplomat), and finally Berlin in 1934.
• Early Berlin years:
  • Taught English at Berlitz, worked as a translator at Ufa (German equivalent of Hollywood).
  • “She began in Germany teaching English at the Berlitz School, then went to work as a translator at Ufa.” (Prof. Flam, 04:23)
• The allure of Germany: a combination of language skills, career ambitions, and the country’s prosperity compared to Depression-era US.

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3. Integration into Nazi Germany and Broadcasting Career

• Gillers becomes involved in Berlin’s cultural scene, dating scientists and scholars, notably Max Otto Koischwitz, who would become both her lover and producer (14:02).
• Begins as "Midge at the Mic," hosting musical variety shows introducing American music to German audiences.
  • “She is the highest paid performer on Reich radio during the war.” (Prof. Flam, 06:40)
• Shift from music to propaganda starts in 1942 under Koischwitz’s direction.
• Possibility discussed that Gillers was pressured or coerced into broadcasting Nazi propaganda, especially after her passport was seized, leaving her effectively trapped in Germany (19:49).

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4. Propaganda, Persona, and Content of Broadcasts

• Gillers’ broadcasts targeted American and British soldiers, leveraging her American accent and midwestern mannerisms to sound “just like home.”
• Her main strategy: sow doubt about the war’s purpose (“not America’s war, but Britain’s; and that Jews were behind it”) and demoralize troops regarding their families’ fidelity.
  • “Her gig is to basically discourage these homesick Americans from fighting and speculating about their wives and the sweethearts at home…” (Don Wildman, 23:53)
• Antisemitism became “a major feature of her propaganda broadcasts” (Prof. Flam, 24:56), though her precise motivations remain debated.
• Comparison to "Tokyo Rose": Axis Sally was more insidious due to her authentic American voice and cultural cues.

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5. Effectiveness and Reception among Soldiers

• Evidence is scant that her broadcasts had any demoralizing effect; most GIs found them amusing or enjoyed the American music (29:33).
  • “We don't have any real evidence that she managed to dishearten or demoralize any American GIs.” (Prof. Flam, 29:33)
• Iconic “Vision of Invasion” broadcast became central to her later prosecution—a scripted radio drama rather than a spontaneous address.

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6. Arrest, Trial, and Aftermath

• After Germany’s surrender, Gillers lived under an assumed name before being arrested by the British and extradited to the US (36:33).
• Indicted on 10 counts of treason. Trial took place in New York (38:27), dominated by Cold War anxieties overshadowing the case.
• Legal focus on whether her propaganda met the constitutional bar for treason; ultimately convicted on only one count (broadcast of “Vision of Invasion”).
• Received 10–30 years in prison and a $10,000 fine; served 12 years in Alderson Federal Prison, converting to Catholicism and learning seamstress skills.
• Upon release, lived quietly in a convent in Ohio, working to finally complete her college degree (43:33, 47:29).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On ambiguity of motives:

  • “We know a great deal about Mildred's actions. We know very little about her motives and intentions.”
    (Prof. Flam, 05:25)

• On Axis Sally’s persona:

  • “She is the most popular broadcaster that Reich Radio employs, which is why she's the highest paid…she is at the heart of it.”
    (Prof. Flam, 31:20)

• On the propaganda’s impact:

  • “I've seen no evidence that her propaganda had any real impact whatsoever. If anything…she was diverting resources the Nazi government might have used more productively elsewhere.”
    (Prof. Flam, 46:48)

• On her trial and legal drama:

  • “The trial is not an even or level playing field…Mildred doesn't help her case either. During testimony, she commits perjury. She denies that, in fact, she's the person who made some of those broadcasts.”
    (Prof. Flam, 39:49)

• On her post-prison life:

  • “She really does fade away. Ultimately, when she is released from prison…one of the conditions…is that she not seek any kind of publicity or attention, that she live quietly…”
    (Prof. Flam, 43:33)

• On empathy and judgment:

  • “I do have some sympathy. I will also add that when it came time to pay that price, she accepted it. She served her full sentence…”
    (Prof. Flam, 45:38)

• On her unsatisfying moment in the limelight:

  • “She wanted one more moment in the limelight…that moment does attract national media attention…”
    (Prof. Flam, 47:29)

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Important Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |:------------:|------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:15 | Introduction to treason and propaganda in war | | 03:42 | Professor Flam introduces Gillers’ early background | | 05:25 | Nature of Gillers’ upbringing and questions about motives | | 12:18 | Gillers’ radio career origins | | 15:48 | American attitudes toward Germany and Gillers’ context | | 19:49 | Details on Gillers’ passport seized—trapped in Germany | | 22:13 | Pressure to do propaganda broadcasts as Axis Sally | | 23:53 | Tactics of broadcasts: demoralization, antisemitism | | 29:33 | GI reaction to broadcasts—“amused” rather than demoralized | | 33:49 | Legal complexities: citizenship’s role in treason charges | | 36:33 | Axis Sally’s post-war capture and arrest | | 38:27 | Details of trial, media attention, and legal proceedings | | 42:53 | Sentence, prison life, and post-release conditions | | 45:38 | Host and guest reflect on Gillers’ legacy and psychology | | 46:48 | Effectiveness of wartime propaganda questioned | | 47:29 | Gillers’ attempt to reclaim her degree and fleeting notoriety|

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Tone and Approach

The episode maintains a reflective, nuanced tone, balancing condemnation of Gillers’ actions with a measure of empathy for her background and circumstances. Both Don Wildman and Prof. Flam avoid simplistic or black-and-white judgments, emphasizing the “murky gray zones” of history, personal ambition, and coercion in extremist times.

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Conclusion

"American Traitors: Axis Sally" is a compelling exploration of one individual’s journey from American undergrad to notorious wartime propagandist—and the complex, often ambiguous moral terrain that accompanied it. Listeners gain insights not just into Gillers’ life and trial, but also into the broader roles of propaganda, personal agency, and justice in times of conflict.

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Recommended for those interested in WWII, media history, legal dilemmas, and the psychology of collaboration and treason.

Transcript

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[Don Wildman]

According to Article 3, Section 3, Clause 1 of the US Constitution, no one can be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act or on a confession in open court. The latter won't be happening here. We stand by our innocence. But as the prosecution and defense laid out their cases, our eyes kept drifting to the wooden witness box. Who or what might the prosecution have aligned against us? Could we be brought face to face with the people we never thought we'd see again? Just as the traitor Axis Sally once was at her own trial? Or the Rosenbergs, whose fates were seized by the testimony of those they once trusted? It's American history hit, and I'm your host Don Wildman. Thanks for listening. In fighting a war, the use of propaganda aimed either at civilians on the home front or troops in the field plays a strategic role in psychologically weakening the enemy. Its actual effectiveness is debatable, but that hasn't stopped militaries across the ages from putting it into practice. If guns and artillery are designed to destroy walls, machinery, and people, then propaganda targets hearts and minds, and that can gain you an advantage. Or so goes the thinking. In the 20th century, electronic media provided a whole new kind of propaganda. No longer was it just posters and leaflets dropping from the skies. Now there were radio broadcasts capable of reaching antennas in enemy trenches or on ships at sea. One of the most famous propagandists In World War II was an American named Mildred Gillers, working for Nazi Germany, a woman best known by her nickname, Axis Sally. Our guest today knows her story well. Michael Flam is a professor of American political history at Ohio State University. But from 1998 to 2024, he worked at Ohio Wesleyan University, which is where Mildred Gillers attended school. His 2017 lecture, Axis Sally, Ohio Wesleyan's most notorious and least understood alum, tracked her journey from Ohio undergrad to American trader. Greetings, Professor Lamb. Michael, hello.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Good morning. It's a pleasure to be with you.

[Don Wildman]

Let's set the scene. Of course, the story of Miller Gillers as Axis Sally begins before World War II. But starting with that background, it's always important to remember how resistant the American public was to World War II before the attack on Pearl Harbor. For so many Americans, this was yet another European bonfire that we should avoid. The major fighters here are France, Great Britain and China against Germany, Japan and Soviet Union. I'm stating the obvious, World War II. But this is to say that we were not in the battle first. And so she's over in Germany during that time is when she gets there, right?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yes. Mildred arrived in Germany in 1934 after a failed love affair with a British diplomat, Bernard Metz, who was also Jewish. They met in New York City, where Mildred was a struggling actress. She followed him. When the Foreign Service transferred him to Algiers in Morocco, the relationship ended. Mildred was at loose ends and decided to move to Berlin because she had studied German when she was an undergrad at Ohio Wesleyan University. She began in Germany teaching English at the Berlitz School, then went to work as a translator at Ufa. And so she is in Germany from the mid-1930s as Hitler and the Nazis rise to power.

[Don Wildman]

So we're placing her in time. But I want to back even further up for the basics of this girl. Mildred Gillers, born in Portland, Maine, 1900. Tough childhood, alcoholic mother, stepdad. Did she know her natural father? I'm curious.

[Professor Michael Flam]

She did. Her stepfather was an interesting man. He was an alcoholic. He was abusive. He was also an Irish nationalist. And I mention that detail because that may help to explain why Mildred was both anti Jewish and anti British in her broadcast. Although here I do want to stress for your audience, we know a great deal about Mildred's actions. We know very little about her motives and intentions. And we do not know, for example, the Extent to which she actually believed what she was saying and voicing on the air versus what her producer was telling her to say.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, this is a very unusual story for anyone who doesn't realize this or doesn't know the background here. In that an American voice is in Germany during World War II. Who becomes a very popular in Germany propagandist voice against the Americans. That's the very basics of what we're talking about here. And if you're thrown by that, that's good. Because you're going to get a very interesting education here about something you might not know much about. And that's what's really unusual about Mildred. She has to sort of navigate really interesting waters to become who she becomes.

[Professor Michael Flam]

She is a troubled soul. She is a seeker. She tends to pursue unsuccessful relationships with married men. And it's a remarkable journey from Ohio, you know, student and undergraduate, all the way to Germany to Reichs Radio. And at one point, she becomes the highest paid performer on Reichs Radio during the war.

[Don Wildman]

That's incredible. How does she get from Maine to Ohio Wesleyan? Just a standard application and off you go.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Standard application. She was very interested in drama, naturally. Became a theater and German major at Ohio Wesleyan. And Ohio Wesleyan at the time had a very strong drama program. She enrolled at Ohio Wesleyan in 1918, fall of 1918, as World War I is raging. She leaves in the spring of 1922 without earning her degree. The reasons for her departure are, like so many aspects of her life, rather murky.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, well, she's an aspiring actress. She had toured with roadshow companies, performed as a chorus girl on Broadway, and then ends up in algiers, North Africa, 1933, traveling with her mother, right?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yes, that is correct. But also, I mean, truly following this man, Bernard Metz, who at the time was her lover and was a British Jewish diplomat. And again looking for the source of her later anti Semitic statements on Nazi radio. That relationship may also have played a role.

[Don Wildman]

There's a really important aspect of this story. All of this will fall into place as we get into this further. But one sort of outlying idea is that how high an opinion Americans had of Germany back then, before World War I, really, since the 19th century, it was the pinnacle of innovation and invention. This was the feeling Americans had about Germany and why a person like Mildred would find her way going over there. This was kind of one of those places to go in the world. So from 1934 to 1940, she ends up living in Germany, working in radio. How did she get into that?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Well, first of all, Don Let me just add, for Mildred, I believe the main attraction of Germany was twofold. First, she spoke German. So that would obviously facilitate her move there. Also, Germany is prosperous. As early as 1934 and 1935, Germany, meanwhile, the United States is in the depths of the Great Depression. Mildred has no money, has always been struggling financially. So going to Germany makes sense. Because she did believe there might be more economic opportunity there. As you note, she had struggled during the 1920s. To establish herself as an actress in New York. She did some semi nude modeling at one point, pursued the relationship with Metz. And when all else fails, Germany seems to hold out the possibility of finding a career, gaining attention and supporting herself, which is always a struggle for her. So she arrives in Germany first, works for Berlitz. Then gets a job as a translator at ufa. Which is sort of the German Hollywood, you know. And from there, she starts to begin to move in entertainment circles in Berlin.

[Don Wildman]

How old is she when we're talking about this?

[Professor Michael Flam]

She was born in 1900. So she's in her mid to late 30s at that point.

[Don Wildman]

Okay, so she's a grown woman. And she's quite aware of what's going on in Germany. As far as Hitler's rise and all of what the Nazi Party represents.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yes, I think that's an excellent question. And an important point to stress from her arrival in Germany. Mildred is very different from the typical American tourist. In that she reads and speaks German. So she can understand the anti Semitic slogans that are scrawled on the walls. She is very aware when German Jews begin to wear the yellow star. She's aware when they sort of disappear from the streets of Berlin. And are deported to the death camps. And now she will always claim to her dying day. That she was unaware of the ultimate fate of Germany's Jews. But she could not have noticed the persecution that they were facing.

[Don Wildman]

Okay, she is living with her fiance. This is Metz you're talking about, right?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yes.

[Don Wildman]

Tell me about their relationship. More detail. What was the dynamics there?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Great question. The answer is we don't really know. That is part of the murky background. We don't know a lot about her relationship with the artist that she posed nude for. We don't know a lot about exactly where and when she met Metz. What we do know is that the relationship was strong enough that she actually followed him to Algiers. And that they were together at that point. And then it ended. And then in 1934, she goes to Berlin.

[Don Wildman]

Once she's in Germany, she begins dating someone else, right?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Correct. She Begins dating a scientist by the name of Paul Carlson.

[Don Wildman]

He ends up fighting in the war. Right. He dies on the Eastern Front.

[Professor Michael Flam]

That Don is important because Mildred had really hoped that that relationship might lead to marriage and German citizenship. And Mildred never becomes a German citizen. And the whole issue of her citizenship is, I think, really important. And again, like so many aspects of her life, quite cloudy and murky.

[Don Wildman]

So I'm trying to picture the life of this young woman who is, I guess, pursuing a career, as anyone would. She happens to see that it's happened. You know, she's gone all the way to Germany to do this. Is she working for a radio station or who is she employed by?

[Professor Michael Flam]

In 1940, Mildred gets a position with Reichs Radio. She hosts a musical variety program. Really what she does is she introduces American songs to a German audience. She's not political, she's just playing the Platters, as they used to say on radio at that particular time. But very quickly she becomes very popular. And that's really her entry point into radio. It's just through playing American songs and introducing them to a German audience.

[Don Wildman]

Why was she so appealing? What was her skill?

[Professor Michael Flam]

I think her skill was simply her ability to speak German very, very well. And, of course, she knew American popular music quite well from growing up in the United States. She had a good voice and by all accounts, came across well on the radio. She will, by 1943, become the highest paid performer on Reich's radio. She's very skilled at radio broadcasting, in a sense. She finally found the greatest role, the perfect fit of her life.

[Don Wildman]

Interesting.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Hadn't worked, other pursuits, had not worked. But going on the air, going on the radio, that was where she made her mark.

[Don Wildman]

And does she go by the name Mildred Gillers?

[Professor Michael Flam]

She goes by Midge at the Mic. That's her original or sort of nickname, official name, yeah.

[Don Wildman]

Long ago in this interview, I mentioned her father and whether she knew about him. So often the case with these types of people that they are pursuing some missing, filling a hole in their psychology. And it seems in her case that men are doing this for her in some regard. She becomes a lover of a married man named Otto Koischewitz. Right.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Max Otto Cuswitz, a German scholar, earned a doctorate, came to the United states in the mid-1920s to teach at a series of American universities, like Hunter, for example. And that's simply because there was no employment for German professors in the 1920s in Germany. Their economy had collapsed in the aftermath of World War I. While Auschwitz is in the United States, he develops a reputation for openly expressing pro Nazi sympathies. And so he eventually is under pressure and he returns to Germany in the mid-1930s, in part because of pressure from the US government and in part because by the mid-1930s, Germany's economy has recovered and there are again, economic opportunities in Germany for him. He eventually goes to work at Reichs Radio. Reichs Radio. And he will become Mildred's lover and producer when she, in the spring of 1942, shifts from entertainment to propaganda.

[Don Wildman]

Wow. All these years, so traumatic to be in Berlin, I suppose, is where she was living, right?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yes.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. To be in Berlin during the rise of Nazi Germany and all of what we know about the Nuremberg, all the things that we know, these iconic images, all of that is surrounding her. And you know, it's so tempting as an American today, looking back, to think of this as such a black and white situation. Of course it's not. In those days, as I mentioned, Germany was a very popular place certainly, you know, decades before. But even with the rise of Nazism, we're still on the, on the fence as to how to look at this country and what's going on. So she's an American living. I guess there were a lot of Americans probably living in Berlin at that time, right?

[Professor Michael Flam]

That is correct. And here, Don, I'm going to go back a moment. So Mildred grows up in Ohio. Ohio has a large German American population. Ohio was a hotbed of isolationism in the years leading to World War II. So undoubtedly that is part of her mindset at the time. Mildred also always claims that she is an artist, that she is not political to some degree. I think maybe we can take her at her word. That of course, returns us to the issue of the extent to which she believes what she's saying on the air and the extent to which she is simply the mouthpiece for her producer and for Reich radio.

[Don Wildman]

Well, it's going to get pretty dramatic. So coming up, we're going to discuss the contentious radio shows that will gain Mildred the notorious name Axis Sally and eventually accusations of treason.

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[Don Wildman]

Land a Viking longship on island shores, scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the poisonous cup in Renaissance Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into Feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by historyhits. There are new episodes every week. Welcome back. So Mildred Gillers, AKA Axis Sally, has been in Germany for seven years. The war is in full swing now. When do her broadcasts become political, and what are the contents of them?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Well, First, Don, I just want to let your listeners know. In the fall of 1941, as war rages in Europe but the United States remains neutral, Mildred was called into the US Embassy in Berlin. And she was told that she would have to give up her job, a broadcasting position, and returned to the United States. Mildred refused, and at that point, the U.S. government seized her passport. It was actually taken from her and kept at the US Embassy. Now, that's important because that means that Mildred no longer has the freedom to travel. She does not have a passport. At the same time, she does not renounce her U.S. citizenship. And the U.S. government doesn't revoke her citizenship. So she is sort of trapped in this kind of gray area. And that's in the fall of 1941. Then Japan attacks the United States at Pearl Harbor. Now the United States is at war with Japan. At that point, Mildred on the air, voices anti Japanese sentiments. But, of course, Japan is an ally of Nazi Germany. And so now pressure is put on Mildred. She signs a loyalty oath, we believe, with the German government, which allows her to remain on the air. I should say we do not actually have that document. Probably it was destroyed when Berlin was bombed during the war. You know, destroyed in the rubble of Berlin. But we have that, of course, a few days later, after Pearl Harbor, Germany attacked. Well, Germany declares war on the United States. Hitler declares war on the United States. Now the United States and Germany at war. And now Mildred is really in a difficult position. She technically is still a US Citizen, but she doesn't have a passport. She's not a German citizen. So she's an enemy alien within Germany, Nazi Germany. So all of that has to be a great deal of sort of pressure on Mildred. What I am suggesting is that when Koischwitz, her producer and later lover, suggests that she begin in the spring of 1942 making propaganda broadcasts as Axis Sally and voicing anti US propaganda, she may very well have had very little choice in the matter.

[Don Wildman]

Interesting. Well, she had to have been the darling of Goebbels, right? I mean, he was in charge of this.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yes. Although we don't have records of sort of direct interaction between Mildred and Goebbels. Walter Winchell, who was a very prominent, very famous US Broadcaster at the time, would later claim that Mildred was Adolf Hitler's lover. There's absolutely no truth that I know of to that particular allegation or rumor.

[Don Wildman]

Did she know Hitler they met, but.

[Professor Michael Flam]

It was only within the context of large parties and gatherings where many, many people were present. It wasn't A private audience.

[Don Wildman]

So I'm curious how the vibe changes for her, you know, as a radio personality. As she goes from what was basically, you know, a DJ for nostalgic songs and big band tunes, types of things, to being much more military and much more targeted on propaganda. What kind of programs does she end up doing?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Well, they are programs that still feature music, but now, in addition to introducing the songs, she is interspersing political commentary with the music. And she is very much speaking as the sister, the girlfriend, of US And British soldiers. This is particularly after the landings in North Africa. That's when she becomes known as Axis Sally and begins to reach a large audience. And as I say, by 1943, she is known to Allied troops as Axis Sally. She is the highest paid performer on Reich radio, certainly in the European theater. She is the best known American Nazi propagandist.

[Don Wildman]

Right. I mean, her gig is to basically discourage these homesick Americans from fighting and speculating about their wives and the sweethearts at home, planting all these seeds of suspicion and doubt that they're being unfaithful at home. This is why I mentioned at the beginning how the isolationism in America was still a very real element to this. And so her job, in part, was to play on that feeling of like, why am I over here? If you were a serviceman, why am I over here fighting someone else's battle? This is Europe's battle to fight. And instead, here we are. Of course, this has changed with Japan, but in Europe, it's still about the Nazis and about clearing the Nazis out of Europe. So she's there to sort of remind them of this, you know, misplaced role that they're playing, I suppose. Also lots of hateful rhetoric against President Roosevelt, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, and, of course, the Jews. How big a part of her Persona and her presentation was antisemitism? How much did that play?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Anti Semitism was a major feature of her propaganda broadcasts beginning in the spring of 1942. In essence, Mildred makes two points over and over again. This is not America's war. It's British Britain's war. And ultimately the Jews are behind all of it, both in terms of influencing British policy and influencing Franklin Roosevelt and his decision to lead the United States into war. And those are the points that she stresses over and over again, although it remains unclear whether that is truly what she believes or that's what Cuswitz, her producer and lover, is telling her to say on the air. And here I need to stress again, it seems absolutely plausible that Mildred is under Extraordinary pressure, direct or indirect, to follow orders and do what she is told. She is certainly aware of what happens to people who resist what the Nazi government wants them to do. Yeah, coercion is always present, even if it's not being sort of directly threatened against her.

[Don Wildman]

It will be such a huge theme in the Nuremberg Trials. The sense that I was just doing my job, this sort of, you know, chain of command notion that will play out in all those trials and ultimately as the excuse for even the Holocaust. That does play a part in her defense as well, eventually. And her reason for what she did.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Absolutely. I mean, she stresses that she's an artist. She stresses over and over again that she had no awareness of the ultimate fate of Jews. She knew they faced persecution, but she claimed. She claimed she did not know about the existence of the death camps. It's also interesting. She never expressed any remorse or contrition for what had happened to the Jews of Germany either. So, as with so many aspects of her life, it's a complicated story.

[Don Wildman]

You wonder how much she knew about what was really happening on the battlefield, because the Allies are coming north from North Africa and eventually, of course, d Day in 1944. But in those 42 and 43 years, I wonder how much the intensity of her broadcasts changed and grew, I imagine, as they realized that these guys are coming closer and closer.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Absolutely. Although the tone of her broadcasts, it's never really taking a threatening tone, as we've discussed before. It's mostly, I'm the sister, the girlfriend. Here's what you're missing. Here's what you will never experience. Why are you risking or even sacrificing your life for this war that is ultimately on behalf of the British and the Jews.

[Don Wildman]

And it's worth comparing to the famous Tokyo Rose, who's doing the same number on the Pacific soldiers, the GIs coming across the Pacific. But she's very obviously Japanese. You can hear it in her voice. Whereas that's what's sort of insidious, especially insidious about Mildred Giller's Axis Sally. She's American. She has all those cadences. She is. I guess she's telling them that she's an American, right?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Absolutely. No. And they can hear, you know, she has a classic Midwestern Ohio accent. You know, so she's heartland American. You know, she's not even from the coast or. Or. Or anything of that nature. I should also let your listeners know, in case some of them are confused. There was another second Axis Sally, who was making broadcasts out of Rome during the War. She was an Italian American woman from Brooklyn who didn't reach as wide an audience. It is interesting to note, she did renounce her U.S. citizenship and become an Italian citizen during the war. And as a result, the US government never prosecuted her. She wound up being sentenced to a prison term by the Italian government and then released after a couple of years as part of a general amnesty. But in case some of your listeners are confused or are recalling, you know, the Axis Sally who came broadcast out of Rome, out of Italy during the war, there's a second, wow, Sally out there.

[Don Wildman]

There's a famous broadcast she does called the vision of invasion, May 11, 1944, just before the Allied invasion of Normandy on 6-6-17. So it's a month before D Day. She broadcasts a demoralizing and exaggerated account of the horrors awaiting any Allied soldiers foolhardy enough to invade Fortress Germany or Fortress Europe. How did they describe her effect?

[Professor Michael Flam]

As far as we can tell, gis just tended to laugh at and be amused by Axis Sally's broadcast. We don't have any real evidence that she managed to dishearten or demoralize any American GIs. And frankly, it appears that they simply enjoyed hearing an American voice, particularly a female voice. They enjoyed hearing some American songs and, you know, it relieved the monotony. There's a lot of monotony when you're serving in the military. And so there's no real evidence the broadcast had any impact. Now, the specific broadcast you mentioned, Vision of Invasion, is interesting. It's, in fact, a scripted radio broadcast drama. Cwitz, actually, he appears in it. He plays her husband. They are an Ohio couple, and she is having nightmares about how her son has died during the invasion of France. But it's a scripted drama. She is reading lines that were written for her. She's not riffing or improvising. And that particular broadcast will become the basis of. Of the single charge of treason for which she is convicted. And so just, you know, foreshadowing a bit the legal challenge she's going to face after the war. She winds up being convicted of treason, a single charge of treason based on a radio broadcast that, in fact, was a radio drama. A scripted drama.

[Don Wildman]

Interesting. Wow.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yeah.

[Don Wildman]

She works alongside Hans Fritz, who was later tried and acquitted at the Nuremberg trials, and Kurt Georges von Kiesinger, the station's liaison with the German Propaganda Ministry for Overseas Broadcasting. She is right in the heat of it all, isn't she?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Absolutely. She is the most popular broadcaster that Reich Radio employs, which is why she's the highest paid Absolutely. She is at the heart of it. She is at the center of Nazi propaganda efforts that are aimed at US Soldiers and British soldiers, Allied soldiers in general.

[Don Wildman]

We're going to circle back to this. But that drama, that radio drama features an Ohio mother, Evelyn. She plays her, who is foreseeing her son's death on an Allied ship in the English Channel. I mean, they're really pulling on the heartstrings here.

[Professor Michael Flam]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I should mention, Don, we have these broadcasts because beginning in 1943, the US government is recording, courting them to use as the basis for a legal case against her, to prosecute her for treason. And there's some interesting history here. The U.S. attorney General at the time was a man named Francis Biddle, and he was a great liberal supporter of Franklin Roosevelt. Biddle believed the United States had gone too far in World War I in prosecuting sedition. The United States in World War I had passed an Anti Sedition act, which made it a crime to, you know, oppose the war, to criticize the draft, to criticize President Wilson, essentially to criticize any aspect of the U.S. effort in World War I. And many Americans, including the leader of the Socialist Party, Eugene Debs, were arrested, charged, convicted, and sent to prison on the basis of these supposedly seditious statements. So Biddle recalls that history and says, we're not going to go down that path. We're not going to make the same mistake during World War II. We're not going to treat words speech as treason. But within the Justice Department, other people make the argument that's true. If Mildred was just standing on a street corner yelling at crowds, or if she was handing out leaflets or pamphlets, but she's on the radio. She is employing this new technology that enables her to reach tens of Thousands, thousands of U.S. and allied soldiers at a time. So Biddle is reluctantly convinced. And so, beginning in 1943, the US Justice Department is laying the groundwork for a treason case against Mildred after the war.

[Don Wildman]

Yikes.

[Professor Michael Flam]

And that's going to rest on the fact that she is still a U.S. citizen, because under U.S. law, you can only be convicted of treason if you are a U.S. citizen.

[Don Wildman]

Well, one wonders if she was aware of all that going on behind the scenes of her life. How does she earn the name Axis Sally? She obviously didn't go by that name.

[Professor Michael Flam]

No, it's really not clear. That's one of the interesting aspects. It's not exactly clear why US Soldiers sort of gave her that particular name. I heard various explanations, but there isn't really a Particularly good one. It's just kind of spread. Axis Valley.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. There was other names. Berlin Babe, Olga. From her self description, she's the Irish type. That's where they get the Sally, I guess. Black hair, white skin, you know, she's just portraying herself as a girl from back home. Her last broadcast is on May 6, 1945. The Ready army soldiers enter through the front of her station as she exits out the back. According to her, Third Reich surrenders two days later after the battle of Berlin. And it's over for Axis Sally and for Germany at that point. Point. But that will lead to, as you say, a capture and a trial.

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[Don Wildman]

Michael, how did Mildred Gillers get caught?

[Professor Michael Flam]

When the war ends, she goes into hiding. She takes an assumed name and she moves into the British sector of Berlin. And so for about a year she's living under this assumed name, Barbara Maugham in the British sector. Eventually the British arrest her. Interestingly, she only has one personal item with her and that is a photo of Max Otto Cuswitz who was apparently the great love of her life. He had died back in 1944. So she's still got a photo of him now for about a year or so. She is in British custody while the US And Britain work out extradition and some other sort of legal issues. And then in 1947, she's sent back to the US to await trial.

[Don Wildman]

Okay. And she's indicted on 10 counts of treason in 1947, namely for that famous broadcast vision of invasion. That was part of this, wasn't it? She's looking at the death sentence, isn't she?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Potentially. There's a number of difficult issues here. Under the Constitution, under US Law, a US Citizen can only be convicted of treason if there are two eyewitnesses to the act of treason. Now, if you recall, she's making broadcasts from a recording studio in Berlin. So where do they come up with the two eyewitnesses? Now, fortunately or unfortunately, Mildred had visited a POW camp in 1944 posing as a member of the Red Cross. And her goal was to sort of get testimony, get ideas from US Prisoners that she could then weave into her broadcasts. Well, a number of those POWs would eventually testify against her in court. And they were considered the eyewitnesses to her trial.

[Don Wildman]

I see. Wow. Let's talk about that trial. Where does it take place and how long are we looking at?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Well, the trial begins in the fall of 1948. The timing is, I think, interesting and significant. President Truman is running for election, and so he is under a great deal of pressure to prosecute this traitor, Axis Sally. At the same time, you know, World War II is already sort of fading into the background. And now the Cold War is emerging. So, in fact, the trial in the fall of 1948 that gets the most attention is the famous Alger Hiss, Whitaker Chambers trial, which sort of focuses on Communist subversion in the US Government, the State Department in particular. Nevertheless, in the fall of 1948, the Justice Department prepares and begins the trial. It starts in January, 1949. It's interesting. The judge, from the outset, takes a very, very active role. For example, in order to ensure Mildred a, quote, unquote, fair and impartial jury. He dismisses seven Jewish jurors right at the start.

[Don Wildman]

Where does it take place? Is it in New York?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yes, it is in New York City.

[Don Wildman]

Wow. Well, there you go right there. Jurors listen to excerpts of her shows. They listen to testimony of soldiers who had been interviewed by her. It must have been quite a scandal, this trial. Or is she Just as you say, lost in the lurch of the Cold War.

[Professor Michael Flam]

It does attract media attention. But that pales in comparison to the Whitaker Chambers Alger Hiss case. Because really, now, the Cold War. The Communist threat. Is seen as much more serious. The trial is quite interesting. It is, in my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer. The trial is not an even or level playing field. You have the full resources, the federal government. Mildred's attorney is not particularly skilled or good at his job, in my opinion. To be fair, he does not have the resources of the federal government. For example, they don't have the resources to bring any witnesses from Germany. Who might have testified about the coercion that Mildred faced And the threats that she faced. Mildred doesn't help her case either. During testimony, she commits perjury. She denies that, in fact, she's the person who made some of those broadcasts. She again claims that she's an artist. She refuses to express regret or remorse. She's not a good witness in her behalf. The judge, again, I think, is biased towards the prosecution. At least in this particular case. He says that Mildred had given aid and comfort to the enemy. She had committed treason. Unless she lived in constant fear. Of imminent and impending death. Or bodily harm at all times. In other words, the judge really is instructing the jury. Don't believe for a moment that she is under coercion or duress. Unless the defense can make a case that it was constant and that she faced imminent threat.

[Don Wildman]

There was dramatic testimony from one former pow, Gunnar Dragsholt, soldier. Who saw her at a POW camp, I guess. And screamed things at her. They defamed her character, of course, that she had exhibited lewd behavior in 1944. It's a very negative portrayal, obviously. Which probably had a lot to do with the poor representation she had. Not much pushback going on, I suppose.

[Professor Michael Flam]

That's right. There is a film that's been made of Axis Sally. Starring Al Pacino, who plays her attorney. It's not a very good film. And I don't think it accurately represents. How well or how poorly her attorney represented her in that trial. But, yes, there is a lot of negative attention given to Mildred. Which makes it rather remarkable that in the end, despite all of its advantages. The US Government is able to convict her on only one of eight of the charges that are ultimately brought against her. And the sole conviction for treason is based on that broadcast you referenced. Vision of Invasion. Which was, in fact, a scripted radio drama.

[Don Wildman]

Exactly. The conviction leads to a fine, $10,000. Sentenced to imprisonment for 10 to 30 years, not death. This is appealed, of course. The appeals court upholds conviction. 1950. How much time does she actually serve?

[Professor Michael Flam]

So she was sent to a federal prison in West Virginia, Alderson Federal Prison, which is known as Club Fed. She ultimately serves her entire 12 year sentence. She actually refuses early release, even though, you know, she is an excellent inmate, a model inmate. While she's in prison during those 12 years, she converts to Catholicism, learns to become a skilled seamstress.

[Don Wildman]

What is the takeaway in the end coming out of the trial? And does she just kind of fade away, or was her treason still a story throughout the 1950s?

[Professor Michael Flam]

She really does fade away. Ultimately, when she is released from prison, one of the conditions that is imposed on her is that she not seek any kind of publicity or attention, that she live quietly, that she not grant interviews. For the most part, she complies with that restriction. In fact, after she is released from prison, Mildred returns to Ohio. She lives in a convent here in Columbus, Ohio, which is where I am right now. And she teaches various courses. She also, ironically, works to complete that college degree that she had never finished when she left Ohio Wesleyan in the spring of 1922.

[Don Wildman]

Wow. She actually served time with her fellow enemy, radio announcer Eva Tiguari Daghino, who was nicknamed Tokyo Rose. She was in prison with Tokyo Rose?

[Professor Michael Flam]

Yeah, that's correct. They both went to Club Fed. And I must tell you, I've visited Alderson. You know, it looks a lot, in fact, like a small college with a fence around it. It's not a particularly grim penitentiary type place.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, yeah. She described herself at the end as a patriotic America. Irony. Her claim, for better and worse, was, my war was with England and the Jews. So she maintained her antisemitism to the end? I suppose, yes.

[Professor Michael Flam]

I think that's fair to say. Now, here it's important to understand, too. I mean, plenty of Americans before, during and after World War II were anti Semitic.

[Don Wildman]

Sure.

[Professor Michael Flam]

And so, you know, she does express that openly. It's a little bit unclear how different she is in terms of her personal beliefs than millions of other Americans found herself in a position to voice those. And that brought her a great deal of attention.

[Don Wildman]

It sounds. Maybe I'm projecting, but it seems there is an element of sympathy to your take on this. Having researched this woman, how much do you think she was caught up in the currents of the times versus how much was she aware of her own motives?

[Professor Michael Flam]

It's very hard to tell. I have some sympathy for Mildred. She grew up in a difficult and Dysfunctional family. Both her father and her stepfather were abusive alcoholics. Throughout her life, she is seeking some kind of stability and security. She has to make her way on her own at a time when that was very challenging for single women. She found herself in Berlin, where she somehow managed to land the role of a lifetime, at least from her perspective. And she had always sought the limelight. She always wanted to be a star on the stage or on the radio. And so she finally got her great opportunity and it came at a great price. So I do have some sympathy. I will also add that when it came time to pay that price, she accepted it. She served her full sentence, and afterwards she complied with the terms of her release, lived quietly for the most part. I don't condone what she did, but I do think it's important to have some empathy for her.

[Don Wildman]

And was in the end, her propaganda or the tool of her useful? Did it achieve anything in reducing the threat to Germany?

[Professor Michael Flam]

I've seen no evidence that her propaganda had any real impact whatsoever. If anything, you might want to make the case that she was diverting resources the Nazi government might have used more productively elsewhere, simply in terms of her salary. But certainly I have never come across any evidence that she managed to damage US troop morale in the war or impact any battlefield result.

[Don Wildman]

A strange coda. Dakino Tokyo Rose was actually granted a presidential pardon in January of 1956. Having to do with our relationship with Japan, I suppose. But nothing like that ever happened for Axis Sally.

[Professor Michael Flam]

No, no one came forward. And that's an interesting question as to why. I suspect it's because she was a US citizen, a woman who had gone to Berlin and had served the government, Nazi Germany. There's another interesting coda. She eventually earned enough credits to receive her degree from Ohio Wesleyan in 1973. And she actually contacted the university and said, I'd like to receive my degree. And the president, after some internal deliberation, agreed and acknowledged that she had served her time, paid the price, and that she could receive her degree. And then Mildred said, no, no, I want to receive my degree at commencement. I want to march across the stage and have you, the President, hand me this degree. It's like she wanted one more moment in the limelight. Well, that moment does attract national media attention, in part because it coincides in 1973 with the return of US POWs from Vietnam. And a number of those US POWs in Vietnam had made statements critical of the US government while they were there, while they were in the Hanoi Hilton. The prison that the North Vietnamese had set up for US Pilots who were shot down over North Vietnam. And so, ironically, in the end, as she receives the degree that 50 years earlier she had left behind, she does again become the center of media attention because her story intersects with this question about what is the proper behavior of U.S. citizens in time of war?

[Don Wildman]

Yes, what is the proper behavior of an actress? That is the question as well. In the end, she was looking for a stage. Professor Michael Flam is a scholar of modern American political history at Ohio State University. Taught a broad range of 20th century courses at Ohio Wesleyan University from 1998 to 2024, where Mildred Gillers went to school. Thank you so much, Michael. So nice to meet you. I hope we have you back again sometime soon.

[Professor Michael Flam]

It was my pleasure, Don. Thank you.

[Don Wildman]

Hey, thanks for listening to American History at. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays, all kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American history hit with me, Don Wildman, so grateful for your support.

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