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- [00:00]
Don Wildman
Listen up. You can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence for just $49.99 when you switch to Boost Mobile.
- [00:08]
Stephen Brumwell
We pulled so many all nighters to.
- [00:10]
Don Wildman
Give you this deal and hey, stop messing with the mic. I'm just helping this catch people's attention. This is a great deal. Exactly, so it doesn't need all that.
- [00:22]
Stephen Brumwell
Fine.
- [00:24]
Don Wildman
Head to your nearest Boost Mobile store right now. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply.
- [00:30]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Now through August 26th, it's back to Deals time, where you can enjoy storewide deals and earn four times points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Califia Farms, Pillsbury Crescent, Yoplait, General Mills, Prego, Bertoli, Heinz and Kraft. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability. Restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [01:01]
Stephen Brumwell
Morning. One sausage McMuffin with egg, please.
- [01:04]
McDonald's Employee
Okay, your total is.
- [01:05]
Stephen Brumwell
Wait. Let's negotiate. How's about you throw in hash browns for a dollar?
- [01:10]
McDonald's Employee
Well, yes sir, that price is already a dollar.
- [01:13]
Ryan Seacrest
Take it or leave it.
- [01:15]
Stephen Brumwell
Take it, I guess.
- [01:17]
McDonald's Employee
Buy one, add one for a dollar on sausage McMuffin with egg, hash browns and more with McValue. Most locations open 5am or earlier. Price and participation may vary. Limited time only. Valid for item of equal or lesser value. Ba da ba ba ba.
- [01:34]
Stephen Brumwell
We sit rigid beside our defense attorney as the charge is read aloud. Uniformed security flank the defense table, enforcing the barrier between us and the public gallery. Our eyes drift off to the room's dark wood paneling, fixating on the grain pattern. Anything to escape, even mentally, what is about to ensue. The words echo through the courtroom, weighted with history. The constitution itself. Article 3, Section 3, Clause 1. Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. We stand accused of conspiring against our great nation. The gavel cracks against the judge's bench. The trial begins, and if this verdict is guilty, our names will be etched alongside the most reviled in American history. Chief among them, unmatched in his infamy, is Benedict Arnold, the Revolutionary War's most infamous turncoat. Hello, and nice of you to tune in. I'm Don Wildman. This is American history hit. Our revolution against the British, at least from the American perspective, was A struggle led by a cast of glorious heroes, mostly men who distinguished themselves with valor, courage and a transcendent selflessness before the great cause of liberty, standing with unshakable resolve against the tyranny of the crown. Washington, Sam Adams, Hancock, Hale, John Paul Jones. The Revolution's story is etched in the names of steel eyed patriots. But there is one name, one man who might have stood above them all, whose brilliance and sheer determination on the battlefield could have made him the Revolution's greatest hero, but for his baser qualities which instead landed him in the shadows of infamy. I'm speaking of Benedict Arnold, a name now synonymous with ambition and betrayal, whose nefarious actions near the end of the war stood in profound contrast with those earlier on. An astonishing role reversal that raises questions and theories about how it all came to pass and begs the question, what really made Benedict Arnold? Benedict Arnold? To address this age old confusion is Stephen Brumwell, a writer and independent historian specializing in British American military affairs of the 18th century. He is the author of a number of books, the most recent being Benedict Arnold and the Crisis of American Liberty. And it's been on my bookshelf for many months now, so it's a thrill for me to meet this man. Hello, Stephen. Thanks for agreeing to talk.
- [04:27]
Don Wildman
Hello, Don. And thank you very much for having me on.
- [04:31]
Stephen Brumwell
Important to emphasize at the outset, one's take on the story of Benedict Arnold is of course a matter of perspective. His dastardly betrayal looks quite different from the vantage point of the British.
- [04:43]
Don Wildman
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing to bear in mind, which was obvious to the people at the time, but isn't obvious to us, is that Arnold was a member of the British Empire. He was born in 1741 at a time when the American colonies along the Eastern seaboard were part of the British Empire. Americans, well, those inhabitants of the colonies regarded themselves primarily as Britons. They just happened to be living on the other side of the Atlantic. This notion that they were Americans is something really that comes in post the Revolutionary War. They might have thought themselves of Virginians or New Englanders or Pennsylvanians, but they would not have seen themselves as Americans. Their primary allegiance was to the king back in London.
- [05:35]
Stephen Brumwell
Yeah, exactly. Arnold was a figure cut straight from the fabric of revolution right from the start. Let's discuss his Connecticut background. Born 1741, descendant of an elite family. But his father was an alcoholic. And Arnold transcends his tough childhood to become a big success in America. Tell me about his early iteration as a businessman.
- [05:58]
Don Wildman
Yeah. As you Mentioned. I think the fact that Arnold's father went off the rails in a very bad way and became like the town drunk was something which had a huge impression upon Arnold, who was someone who was intensely aware of his own reputation, his sense of honor, and I think this was a major factor. Luckily, Arnold's mother was a very, very strong figure and when her father, Bradley did succumb to alcoholism, she pretty much stepped into the breach, took things in hand. She managed to fix her son Benedict up with an apprenticeship with two of her cousins who were apothecaries, which basically people think, well, that means like a chemist or druggist or something. But basically they, they sold all kinds of stuff. But he was taken on board as an apprentice and he did very well for them. So well in fact, that they set him up so that he could become a trader, an apothecary in his own right.
- [07:04]
Stephen Brumwell
Right.
- [07:05]
Don Wildman
Now, after a while, young Benedict was kind of bored with being a shopkeeper. And his father had previously been a sea captain before he had problems with drink. So Benedict wanted to follow in his father's footsteps and so he quite swiftly managed to build up a business as a sea captain, not only trading locally along eastern seaboard of North America, but down to the West Indies and even crossing the Atlantic. So in his 20s, he was already someone who had basically salvaged what had been quite a disreputable background, a very unpromising background and supposed to becoming very much a self made man. And at this very time, of course, you've got the beginnings of tensions between Britain and her North American colonies because of new taxation policies which were coming in to try and pay for the cost of the last war, what America's known as the French and Indian War, which had basically seen the French removed as the key power in a key rival power to Britain in North America.
- [08:19]
Stephen Brumwell
Yeah, he had enlisted in the, in the militia, age 16 to serve in that war like so many of the colonists, the men in the, in the colonies. That was a big episode in his life. That war is between 1754 and 63. So it sort of overlaps with all of what you're talking about as he sets himself up for a, as a businessman. How active was he in the French and Indian War?
- [08:42]
Don Wildman
Well, there's some controversy over this. You mentioned that Benedict served in the militia. I think this is correct. When he was 16, 1757, the French invaded from Canada and this is the episode, the so called Massacre at Fort William Henry, which many people will be familiar from, from the last of the Mohicans either the book or the movie versions. And there was a kind of a major scare where all the militia were called out, but when the French went back to Canada, the emergency was called off. Now, it's also suggested that Benedict Arnold served in the what called the New York Provincials. These were one step up from militia in that these soldiers served for an entire campaign and were actually paid. But basically, I think it's a question of a conflict of identity. There was another Benedict Arnold, but it's not. Are Benedict Arnold. I mean, there's no way you can just walk away from your apprenticeship for a whole summer and then go back the following summer. So I think that wasn't Benedict. But I think the important thing to bear in mind, certainly when we look at his future career, is that when Arnold was maturing, the big enemy was France. France, whether it was Britain's fighting the French in Europe or North American Britons, if you want to call them that, fighting the French in Canada, the French were the natural and hereditary enemy of Britons on both sides of the Atlantic.
- [10:12]
Stephen Brumwell
Well, you're already touching on such an interesting theme that especially in this time of 250 and America's semiquincentennial, we ignore the fact of all the subjectivity of this time, you know, that this was indeed a whole different world of people, you know, of perspective really in terms of your, your allegiance to one side or another. But it was such a given that people would lean into their, their citizenship as, as Britons, that they were members of the British Empire just because, you know, that was just a given. And yet so many at that time started to push back in the other way. But we forget how, how the contrast really of, of existence at that time.
- [10:54]
Don Wildman
Yeah. I mean, a classic example, of course, is George Washington. He served through the early years of the French and Indian War alongside the British army, the British regular troops. He wanted to be an officer of the King. And he tried very hard to get a Crown commission, but he didn't get one. And of course, Washington was hardly unique in his generation. Many, many of Washington's contemporaries also fought alongside the British against the French. These were people who not that many years later, would end up fighting against the Crown.
- [11:31]
Stephen Brumwell
Yeah, exactly. Well, keep it in mind as the story unfolds. His business is based in New Haven, Connecticut in the 1760s. It's important. He's a big time New Englander. That's the point I'm making. And this will have everything to do with all of his choices as the war, the revolution unfolds. He has a particular personality early on, easily triggered, hypersensitive fights, multiple duels prior to the revolution, which was not, you know, atypical in those days. A lot of guys did this kind of thing, but it was, it was a particular theme for him, wasn't it?
- [12:04]
Don Wildman
Yeah. I mentioned before this idea of reputation, honor. And of course, dueling is all about reputation and honor. If someone impugns your honor, then you have to do something about it. You go for your pistols or your sword. And Arnold was an especially feisty individual. We know from descriptions he was like this sort of short, stocky, monthly character. He was very athletic. He was supposed to be one of the best skaters of his generation. You know, he's gliding across these frozen New England ponds. But he was someone who was very, very graceful, athletic, very physical, if you want to use that expression. And so he was someone who had this. He did have a fiery personality. He had what we call a short fuse. So you mentioned, you know, we know that he fought duels when he was sea captain where he thought that people had basically aspersed him or made some kind of disparaging comment. But this wasn't entirely untypical. As you mentioned, dueling was something which in fact got more and more prevalent during the Revolutionary War. And you know, by the early Republican era, you've got people like Alexander Hamilton, of course, being killed in a jewel.
- [13:22]
Stephen Brumwell
Yeah, it was all about reputation, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah.
- [13:24]
Don Wildman
You have. If someone calls you out, you have a choice. You either accept and risk being killed or maimed or you decline and then you're branded a coward.
- [13:36]
Stephen Brumwell
Yeah. When war approaches in the colonies, Arnold is right there in the Connecticut militia, one of their more radical voices who joins the Sons of Liberty in defiance of all of what is going on at the time. The stamp and the sugar acts and so forth. I'm curious about this turn here. You have a guy who's. Who's really pulled himself up by the bootstraps, created a real successful business for himself. I think of a lot of these guys as not in that situation and therefore having, you know, more of a reason for revolution. You know, for a personal level, in the case of Benedict, he's got a lot to protect. You know, he's. He's created a big deal thing in his life.
- [14:15]
Don Wildman
That's very true, though. I mean, historians will debate, they have debated for many, many years the whole question of the economic versus ideological factors. You know, were people rebelling because they didn't like paying taxes, or were they rebelling because of deeper ideological reasons, or was it a combination of both? And of course, there were peaks and troughs. I mean, historians have traced how when the economy was doing better, suddenly agitation dies down. But in the case of Arnold, you make a very good point. He did have a lot to lose. By 1775, he owned the biggest house in New Haven. He was very successful. So it wasn't as if he hadn't done well under the British Empire, whatever restrictions there were, he'd managed to exploit the system and to work the system. He'd actually done well. So he had a lot to give up. And Arnold would later maintain that in 1775, when hostilities broke out at Lexington and Concord, I mean, he wasn't there, but he was one of those who were very swift to pick up arms. He was one of the very first to show that he was prepared to take part in an armed struggle. And it's interesting that as early as 1770, when Arnold was in the West Indies on one of his trading trips, he heard about the Boston Massacre in March 1770, and he was outraged. Why aren't my countrymen doing anything about this? Why are we just sitting around? And this was five years before, so there's no doubt in my mind that he was at the outset a committed patriot, if you want to use that term.
- [16:00]
Stephen Brumwell
He's one of those who sort of takes things personally on all levels, isn't he? He takes this revolutionary cause on personally as well. I mean, that seems to be what goes on for this guy. He channels it all through himself for whatever reason, psychologically. You're referring to the 1775, in April when Lexington, Concord happened, he takes part in seizing a portion of New Haven's gunpowder supply, which was so much of what was happening in those days. The British were, you know, doing their marches trying to secure this ammunition. And then he marches north to Boston to join the cause. Early May 1775, he persuaded the Massachusetts Committee of Safety to give him a colonel's commission and an authorization to do some pretty bold things, which we'll talk about in a moment. But I just want to say, I mean, he is very quickly and rapidly swept up in this revolutionary cause. Was he a particularly well read man? Did he understand the causes through all the pamphlets and so forth?
- [16:58]
Don Wildman
Well, we know that Arnold was well enough educated, he writes well, he's articulate, he expresses his opinions very forcefully and clearly in terms of whether he was sort of saturated in this whole ideology, this sort of debate that been going on about the traditional rights of Englishmen going Right back to the 17th century. Really. There's no real indication that he was one of these people who was delving into that kind of literature. I mean, to be honest, you know, he was busy. He was. Not only was he a sea captain, he was also a horse trader. So he was someone who was. Every year he'd be traveling out to the West Indies, flying, you know, back and forth across the Atlantic, going overland to Quebec, bringing horses back from Quebec, Quebec in winter, back to Connecticut, which would then be traded over to the West Indies in exchange for molattas and other produce. So be honest. I don't think Arnold really had. You know, he was more of a doer than a reader. That's not to say he was. Wasn't an educated person, but he wasn't someone who was obsessing over these historic rights of Englishmen which were suddenly being overturned. And he wasn't someone who was, as was, had absorbed all the. The rhetoric about republics and ideology, more.
- [18:30]
Stephen Brumwell
Of a man of action, not an intellectual.
- [18:33]
Don Wildman
Precisely.
- [18:34]
Stephen Brumwell
I mentioned early May 1775. It's interesting. This is sort of the nuts and bolts of how this worked. The Massachusetts Committee of Safety, which is kind of the Sam Adams system of how things were being talked about throughout the colonies. He persuades that group to give him a colonel's commission and an authorization to lead a force to capture Fort Ticonderoga on Lake Champlain. This is a very important moment in his. In his early military career as far as the revolution is concerned. May 10, 1775. He takes part in that capture with Ethan Allen, who was famous with the Green Mountain Boys up there. The objective is to grab the cannons, which is 80 cannons that are at Fort Ticonderoga. Talk about how this figures into, you know, there's a real chain reaction which happens from this takeover, isn't it?
- [19:24]
Don Wildman
Well, it's interesting, the whole genesis, if you like, of the expedition against Ticonderoga. You've got these different groups all appointing. You've already mentioned Ethan Allen, but there were other people involved as well who all thought they were going to fulfill this same mission. And Arnold was one of these people. When Arnold turned up, he didn't have any of his own men with him. And so basically there was initially this kind of dispute over who was going to command the expedition. And Arnold, being his impetuous, feisty self, thought that as he was a colonel, he should be the one to command. Whereas Ethan Allen said, well, where are your men? These Green Mountain Boys are all my men. They're not your men. So it was finally agreed that they would exercise a joint command, which is what happened. But then when Ticonderoga is surprised on the 10th of May and the garrison are caught basically asleep, there's a dispute soon after, because Arnold, even though he played quite a, you know, a key role in all this, isn't hardly mentioned in the reports and the letters which come out which basically give the glory to other people. And this is almost like a theme which will be repeated throughout the early years of his military career. This idea of, oh, hang on, I was there. I, you know, the Brits acknowledge that I was the guy who was important to all this. And yet he's written out of the reports and it's something which leaves a very bad taste in his mouth.
- [20:58]
Stephen Brumwell
Exactly. Keep this in mind, I say to the listeners, because, oh, my goodness, does it turn out to be a theme in this man's life. You know, the argument over whether I'm getting credit for what I'm due returns over and over again to the point where you wonder, you know, what is this? You know, could this possibly be the case that this man is being so mistreated? Anyway, it will creep up again and again as we go along here. He resigns his militia commission and takes command as a colonel in that Massachusetts force, which in June 1775, is formally adopted as the Continental Army. So interesting. This begins, of course, at this time, Washington and all. There's. There's a struggle against the British in Boston, which becomes the siege of Boston. And that's why I mentioned that the cannons from Ticonderoga become a big deal because they are famously brought across Massachusetts by Henry Knox in that incredible episode where they drag these big cannons through the. Through the snows. And those are finally the weapons that are used to get the British to leave Boston Harbor. So, as we will discuss, Benedict Arnold just keeps popping up everywhere, especially in this early phase of the war, in these critical military moments that end up, you know, causing other things to happen. It's fascinating.
- [22:16]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [22:17]
Stephen Brumwell
And this leads to some. We can't really go down this rabbit hole, Stephen, because it's so. Such a big story. But in the fall of 1775, on the tail end of that siege of Boston, he convinces Washington that the Continental army should attack Canada.
- [22:32]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [22:33]
Stephen Brumwell
A gigantic, bold endeavor to take part in what is already happening up there as American forces are going against Montreal and so forth. But he's going to sort of a pincer action idea, head up through the Maine woods and take 1100 men on a grueling two month march, which they finally arrive at Quebec in mid November. It is a devastating march. Hundreds of men are lost along the way. It's a terribly difficult thing to do to bring people up through those woods. But this is a sign of how determined Arnold was as a military commander, but also how loyal his men were to follow him, isn't it?
- [23:14]
Don Wildman
Yeah. This expedition to Quebec was at the time pretty much seen as an epic feat of endurance, both by the American rebels at this stage and by the British as well. And it really is the foundation of Arnold's reputation. Even after his treason was exposed, men who'd marched with him Quebec saw it as a kind of a badge of honor. To have been to Quebec with Arnold was something you were proud of, irrespective of Arnold's subsequent trajectory. And yeah, as you say, it really was like a kind of a major feat of endurance. It was undertaken in the fall and winter in the main wilderness. So these were guys who were slogging up river with bateau against, you know, going through currents and falls and very, very punishing terrain where they were suffering from dysentery and running out rations. Arnold himself, you know, was deserted by a significant chunk of the expedition who just turned back. He carried on with the corps of his command and he actually did reach the St. Lawrence and he did reach Quebec and he did actually bring the British garrison of Quebec under siege when he joined the forces that were besieging Quebec, I should say under General Montgomery. But the fact that he got there and the fact that he kept his command together was seen not least by George Washington as a considerable feat of arms and an example of outstanding leadership.
- [24:56]
Stephen Brumwell
I'll be back with more American history after this short break.
- [25:03]
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- [25:57]
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- [27:48]
Stephen Brumwell
One of two major wounds happens to him on the same leg, which is just such an incredible weirdness to this guy's military life. Richard Montgomery, who was the guy coming up from from Montreal, having taken Montreal, he was killed in the Quebec attack. Arnold is shot in the leg, badly wounded, and he spends the rest of the time up there recovering from this. But that leads to the next chapter of his of this very campaign. I guess that's attached and we've covered this in a previous episode, which I want people to understand and to listen to because it's fascinating episode 40 is called the Battle of Valcour island, which involves the retreat that Benedict Arnold famously makes basically from this Quebec mishap. You know, the whole. It didn't go well after all, up there. And so they have to do this incredibly heroic journey down through the woods and the water connection to Lake Champlain, and then make this dash down in order to save the troops, which he successfully does. One of his greatest endeavors, he manages to outrun the British all the way down the length of Lake Champlain in a bunch of ragtag boats. But this hearkens back to his sea captainship, his ability to do pretty much anything on the battlefield and then on water.
- [29:03]
Don Wildman
Arnold's background as a sea captain was extremely important. And this was, of course, one of the reasons why he was appointed in the summer of 1776 as Commodore on Lake Champlain. So his role, basically was to put together a fleet of whatever kind could be cobbled together in a matter of weeks to oppose a British advance across the lake from Canada. Now, because Arnold had a fleet and was willing to fight, the British had to prepare warships of their own, which meant that they had to sort of build ships from scratch at St. John's and the Richelieu river, put together sort of prefabricated vessels, so they had enough firepower to be able to transport their troops along to Lake Champlain. So I think it's very important to remember that whatever happened, whatever the outcome, the mere fact that the British were forced to put back their advance was crucial. This put back their advance from Canada, it turned back the clock by a month or so, which was very, very important. Then when the British finally did advance and their fleet onto Lake Champlain, Arnold fought this engagement at Valcourt island in October, where his fleet effectively was badly handled. He managed to withdraw, then it was effectively destroyed. But again, the mere fact that he stood and fought bought time that was incredibly valuable for the patriot cause in a broader sense, because it meant that the British invasion from Canada did not go beyond Fort Ticondroga. It turned back. It was not completed that year. And this was crucial because if you look at the bigger strategic picture, George Washington had been badly defeated. New York during the summer. He'd been pushed back through New Jersey. The British plan originally envisaged an advanced north from New York and advance south from Canada. And if Washington had been caught in between those two advances, you wouldn't have seen Trenton and you wouldn't have seen Princeton. There wouldn't have been that extraordinary Christmas campaign of 1776, which really saved the revolution when it was its low ebb and it was Arnold who took the pressure off. If it hadn't been from Arnold, there would have been this kind of, this double blow.
- [31:42]
Stephen Brumwell
So many of his choices are, seem impulsive, overly bold, maybe miscalculations, but they have these lasting impacts. They seem to be, you know, made. These are decisions made on a gut instinct that sort of fall right in the way of consequential moments. You know, one thing leads to the next and he's not even kind of planning. It is how it sort of seems, which is often the case with these guys who are gut oriented, which seems to be the Benedict Arnold we're talking about at the early part of the war. But it's at the battle of Saratoga against gentleman Johnny Burgoyne, September 1777, where Arnold really distinguishes himself. Remember, he is a wounded man dealing with his leg that has come from, from the Canadian expedition. He is wounded a second time in the same leg when a musket ball crushes his left femur. His horse is shot out from under him. It falls on his leg and when that leg is reset, it ends up 2 inches shorter and he will limp in chronic pain for the rest of his days. Having had a leg injury in my past, which was epic, I can't imagine everything else that this man is dealing with. Suddenly he has this incredibly, you know, crippling wound that he will now carry for the rest of his life. As he recovers, a grateful Washington puts his sort of irascible warrior in charge of a re occupied Philadelphia. This is after the British decamp in June 1778. And this is where Arnold begins to shift. Talk to me about this transition that happens in the summer of 1778 when Arnold goes from Revolutionary war hero to something else altogether.
- [33:24]
Don Wildman
Yeah, well, I think the starting point must be that crippling wound at Saratoga because this, this wound, the wound he gets while storming the, the so called Bremen Red out of Saratoga is far more serious than the previous wound. And as you mentioned, this time, you know, there he's laid up in the hospital in Albany for weeks. He can't ride a horse anymore. This is the guy who was previously distinguished as one of the leading athletes of New England. And he's now stumping around like a cripple. And he's not an old guy, you know, he's in his 30s. And so here is someone who has fought and bled copiously for the revolutionary course. Now as you say, Washington thinks that he's doing him a favor by putting him in charge of Philadelphia, where even though he. He's no longer capable of exercising the field command, he can still be given a position of authority. But this was like handing Arnold a poisoned chalice. It really was. Because Philadelphia, despite this idea of this city of brotherly love, was anything but. It was riven with faction. For the previous year, it had been occupied by the British. It was full of people who were seen as collaborators with the British. Yet at the same time, Pennsylvania had one of the most radical governing bodies, the so called Supreme Executive Council. And very quickly, Arnold finds himself rubbing up against this body of radicals, revolutionary radicals, who. Arnold himself is someone who, he's fairly tolerant towards the. The Loyalists or people who've been sympathetic towards the British. He's someone who also, he's dabbled around. You know, he wants to make a bit of money by selling off stores, this kind of thing. But he also represents military authority and he's seen as someone who's basically stamping over the rights of civilians, which is just a big, a big problem at the time, this idea of standing armies and how the military must be subservient to civilians. And so there's this real friction which very quickly becomes personal between Arnold and the head of the Supreme Executive Council, Joseph Reid. And Reid starts really trying to nail Arnold down for all kinds of very, very petty issues. And it almost seems to be like a vendetta. And it comes very, very close to like a persecution campaign. So this is clash of. And then to add to all this problem, at the same time, Congress, if you like, the federal authority is up against, is at loggerheads with the state authority. And Arnold is kind of caught in the middle because Congress thinks, well, maybe we should try and back him up against Joseph Reed. But they can only do that to a certain extent before they rile up the Pennsylvanians. So it's a very, very difficult situation. But Arnold finds himself stuck in the middle. And given his temperament, which is only exacerbated by the chronic pain he's in, in consequence of his wound sustained at Saratoga, he's not the most patient person to be involved in that kind of situation. And he gets increasingly exasperated.
- [37:02]
Stephen Brumwell
Right. There's a turning of the tide in this man's life. At this point in Philadelphia, 1778, he had been praised as a hero for all good reasons, but he was also resented by his enemies. And this is, you know, plays to everything we talked about as far as his personality goes, very triggered, very kind of. There's an arrogant quality to him that people Push back against, or there are arrogant people who resent him. You know, who knows? It's a very interesting psychological aspect of this, of this story, but nonetheless, he is plagued by a growing sense that this country he is fighting for might be turning its back against it. That seems to be what's going on. Right?
- [37:39]
Don Wildman
Yeah, he. I think what we need to remember, of course, we're now talking about 1778. This is three years after the, the outbreak of hostilities. And a lot of things have changed. Congress, the, the actual makeup of Congress has changed from the initial guys who were involved who were, you know, big personalities. Now a lot of them are moving back and they're being replaced by people who are less charismatic. Also, Arnold, we've mentioned, I mentioned before how Arnold grew up in this era where France was the enemy. And of course, as you mentioned, Don, the great consequence of Saratoga is that France, instead of merely supplying the American rebels with finance, ammunition or logistical support, they actually formally come into an alliance in 1778 with the Americans. Now, Arnold, this wasn't what Arnold signed up for in 1775. He signed up for what he was refers to as, as a redress of grievances. Basically, that meant turning back the clock to 1763 before all of that oppressive taxation came in. Now, in 1778, in an attempt to try and preempt alliance between the French and the Americans, the British sent over what was called the Carlisle Commission, which was basically a peace commission, saying, yes, we'll give you back everything you had, apart from independence, of course. Independence was a sticking point, but Arnold would maintain that the Carlisle Commission actually put forward what he had gone to war for in the first place, which was setting back the clock to the good old days.
- [39:31]
Stephen Brumwell
That's fascinating. I did not even know about the Carlisle Commission. That's amazing. Philadelphia has all. It all happens for Arnold in this time period, not the least of which is this. Here's this man in his midlife now who is hobbling along on half a leg, and he suddenly meets a young and very attractive woman in the name of Peggy Shippen. And we begin a relationship which ends up in marriage. This has to play a major role in this man's life, obviously, but on a subtler basis than we think. Right?
- [40:02]
Don Wildman
Yeah. Peggy Shippen is a fascinating character in her own right. Got to remember, when Arnold meets her, she's 18 years old, he's 37, so he's twice as old as her. But despite the fact that, you know, he's this middle aged by contemporary standards, cripple he's also a revolutionary hero, and he's a handsome court of contemporaries. He's a handsome, dashing guy. And of course, he has achieved all of this stuff. And he has a certain charisma about him. And it definitely does seem to have been a love match on both sides. Now, the question about Peggy, more generally. Peggy. During the British occupation of the of 1777 through to summer of 78, Peggy had been one of the young women of Philadelphia who flirted with the British officers who had occupied the city. And these officers had included Captain John Andre, who was involved in all kinds of theatricals. And he made a very famous sketch of Peggy which shows her dolled up in the towering wigs. Wig of the that was fashionable at the time. So Peggy was someone who belonged to this society which was suspected of having been a bit too friendly towards the British. So the mere fact that Arnold was involved with Peggy Shippen was another black mark against him from the point of view of people like Joseph Reed. Now, Arnold marries Peggy in April 1779. May 1779, he first approaches the British in New York. Now people think, wow, okay, There has to be some kind of correlation between these events. Maybe Peggy pushed him over the edge. Maybe Peggy, with her British sympathies, was the. The straw that broke the camel's back. Here was this guy who was already laboring under all the resentment at the way his contributions hadn't been sufficiently recognized. And he was already thinking the revolution had gone off track from what he'd originally signed up for. Now he marries this beautiful young woman. Did she somehow nudge him over the edge? Now, in my own researches, I haven't found any hard evidence to show Peggy was this kind of catalyst. What is clear from the evidence itself which survives is that once Arnold did embark upon the treason, Peggy was a very willing helper in the treason. She was fully aware of it. And I came across evidence. Well, the evidence has been out there now since the 1940s. But she was involved in the forwarding the correspondence. She knew about it. She was an active participant in it. But I don't think that's the same as saying she originated it. I think Arnold had already made up his mind. She wouldn't have done anything to dissuade him from taking the course he did. But I don't think she necessarily pushed him over the edge.
- [43:25]
Stephen Brumwell
I'll be back with more American history after this short break.
- [43:31]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [43:58]
Stephen Brumwell
Apply.
- [43:59]
Ryan Seacrest
Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [44:02]
Don Wildman
Packages by Expedia. You were made to occasionally take the hard route to the top of the Eiffel Tower. We were made to easily bundle your trip Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.
- [44:25]
Stephen Brumwell
Your book and others that I've read does a great job of navigating this water that he's in from 1778 to 1780, which has, you know, comes from various angles. There is the accusations of corruption, profiteering, misconduct. He is court martialed from financial misconduct. He's seen to act like the former royal governor, throwing parties and making deals with loyalists. All of this stuff is going on while he's in Philly as the commander of the town, adding to the whole foment in him about I'm not getting credit for what I've done. I don't get appreciated by this. Even by, by Washington. There was a really specific problem which was, you know, getting that kind of advancement in the military had a lot to do with state rights versus federal, as you say, you know, there were a certain quota of people that could get decorated and it often or several times skipped over him. So he takes this very personally because he is a highly triggered fella. And this adds to a lot of the, you know, he's a loaded gun for this thing, as you suggest. What you're talking about is this fascinating episode of whether or not the letters between Peggy Shippen and John Andre, who is based in New York, had anything to do with whether in setting up the whole conspiracy, you're claiming that it did, right?
- [45:51]
Don Wildman
Well, I'm not suggesting that Peggy's relationship with Andre led to Arnold's treason. I think it's very significant that when Arnold first approached the British, it was Andre who dealt with Arnold's agent. And for Andre, the whole thing was a complete surprise. If Andre had already known that Arnold was going to defect, this wouldn't have been such a big revelation. But it obviously was. This was the first he'd heard of it. But once he knew that Arnold was planning to want to defect, then he thought, ah, yeah, I was a friend of Mrs. Arnold the former Peggy Shippen and I still write to Peggy's friends in Philadelphia. They will show Peggy my letter and by using invisible ink, what they call interlining, she could then, when the letters are sent back to Andrew, Peggy could insert information which Andre could then activate using heat or liquid or whatever it would take. So there is a real paper trail which through which you can trace the correspondence, but most of the correspondence which goes on. I think one thing that's very important to remember is that Arnold offers to go over to the Brits in May 1779. He's always associated with the offer to give up West Point, and that's not till September 1780. Arnold had offered to go over to the British in person, but they said to him, no, no, you stay where you are, because there might well be a situation where we can make better use of you where you are, rather than just having you serving as a member of the British Army. So I think this is very important when we look at Arnold's motivation, because the period at which Arnold was offering to go over to the British wasn't a time at which the British fortunes were riding especially high. The French had come into the war. The war had now become morphed from a colonial insurrection into a world war, which was going to be much more difficult for the British to suppress the rebellion in America now. So this wasn't exactly a particularly auspicious time to change sides. So I think that reinforces my argument that Arnold did this for what he saw as ideological reasons. And I just to put it in a nutshell, what he would later argue, in fact, what he argued from the very beginning, was that, A, he objected to the French alliance, B, he wanted to end what he saw as a civil war between the two halves of the British Empire. He wanted to put things back, the good old days of 1763, when Brits on both sides of the Atlantic were celebrating the defeat of the French.
- [48:54]
Stephen Brumwell
Fascinating.
- [48:55]
Don Wildman
Wow.
- [48:55]
Stephen Brumwell
You can really draw a straight line from that time to the present. We're talking about. He's being handled basically by Andre, who was a spymaster by trade. That's what he did. And so he. All of what you're talking about with West Point, which comes to pass because of Washington appointing him to become the commander of this again, he wants to fight. Arnold is on Washington to give him a commission. But this is a man who's limping, who can't even really spend much time on a horse anymore. He's not the man to be commanding an army at this critical moment. Especially. So is it fair to say, as a favor to him, Washington appoints him to West Point?
- [49:36]
Don Wildman
Well, Washington had actually wanted Arnold to join him in his sort of active field army during the campaign of 1780. He was hoping to capture New York and the British. But Arnold, much to Washington's surprise, was very reluctant to take a field command. He held out for the command of what they called the Hudson Highlands, which is that mountainous region 40 miles or so above New York, which includes West Point, and which was a key to the control of the Hudson River. So, you know, a strategic artery really, throughout the Revolutionary War. And so Washington thinks, well, okay, here is this. This guy who he'd always admired as an especially effective and brave officer. Who better to put in command of this strategically vital fortress of West Point than my trusted crippled veteran, Benedict Arnold? And this is a post he can hold. And it doesn't matter that he can't follow the army on horseback. He can exercise that command. But Arnold held out long and hard to get that command because he knew that the British also were hoping to take West Point as a way of effectively dealing a killer blow that would help to either end the war or bring the American. American rebels to the negotiating table.
- [51:11]
Stephen Brumwell
It's a fascinating whole episode as to how this happens that Andre, you know, gets caught up there meeting with Arnold in the woods, and then spends the night and then has to ride his horse back. It's a major American history moment here. But suffice to say, Andre is caught and Arnold has to bolt at that point. Suffice to say, Arnold makes his way to New York, escaping the fact that he's been caught in the midst of this conspiracy, and he makes his way to New York. How does he take up his new role on the other side?
- [51:46]
Don Wildman
Of course, Arnold gets away. John Andre doesn't get away. And this is. Has a big impact on Arnold's reception amongst the British because John Andre had been extremely popular. John Andre was ultimately executed, hanged as a spy, and became like a sort of a great martyr figure, if you like, whereas Arnold had escaped. Of course, the Americans would dearly have loved to have hanged Arnold in Andre's place. But when Arnold arrived in New York and was appointed as a brigadier general in the British army, there was a certain amount of resentment against him, not only as someone who had basically turned his coat because he'd got away when Andre hadn't. But then Arnold thought, well, I'm a British officer now. I'm going to show the Brits that I'm going to be Just as effective wearing the red coat of King George as I was wearing the blue coat of the Continental Army. And he does lead a very successful raid into Virginia. He, you know, ends up burning Richmond. And he is a very effective commander. And I think it's important to realize that the British did see Arnold as someone who could potentially be a game changer. And they thought that because he'd been such an effective general in the Continental army, other people would follow his lead, that there would be this whole kind of landslide of defectors. Because it's important to remember that at the time Arnold defected, there really was a crisis in the whole patriot cause. It was at its real low ebb. There was chronic inflation. The morale of the Continental army was at rock bottom. There'd been very severe defeats in the South. So it looks very much as if the British were in the strongest position they had been for a long time. And this crisis situation lasted long into 1781. Because of the siege of Yorktown later that summer and the outcome of Yorktown, we tend to assume that this was all a fait accomplay. But when 1781 began, there were chronic mutinies in the Continental Army. As I mentioned, Arnold was ravaging on the rampage in Virginia. It looked like a very, very different situation.
- [54:21]
Stephen Brumwell
Yeah. I want to nail down the fact that whether or not, in fact, you believe Benedict Arnold was a traitor or was he abiding his own outlook on the morality of the war. You know, that seems to be where we split things there. Right.
- [54:39]
Don Wildman
Yeah. I think it's very important to also consider who were the traitors in 1775? Well, Arnold was a traitor in 1775 because he rebelled against King. His king. He rebelled against King George ii. So was George Washington. Everyone who signed a declaration of independence potentially had a noose around their neck. But the British didn't treat the American rebels as traitor. They didn't go around hanging or hanging, drawing and quartering American rebels that they captured. So this idea of who were the traitors. Now, we could say that Washington was a traitor and other key figures, but Benedict Arnold was a traitor two times over. Not only was he a traitor against King George, but then he betrayed the cause for which he'd decided to fight. Now, the question is, did he, as a man of honor, and there's no doubt that he considered himself to be a man of honor. Did he consider himself to be. To have acted dishonorably as a traitor for the rest of his life? He always maintained that he had acted from what he believed to be the best of intentions. There's this phrase that he uses again and again and again, conscious of the rectitude of my own intentions. Whatever anyone else thought, Benedict Arnold thought he was right. And if he thought he was right, whatever he did was the right thing to do. So I believe that whatever people say about Arnold, whether he committed treason for money or other factors, or even out of sour grapes, if you like, I think the underlying reason is that Arnold felt that by bringing the war to an end, he would somehow be achieving this great deed which would make him famous and renowned and would be a very honorable thing to achieve. And yet it's this great irony that it was to his eternal dishonor. And I think if what I would like to say, if I can just make a final verdict on Arnold is if we talk about traitors, most traitors don't actually achieve anything significant for the cause they ultimately betray. I think Arnold is very, very different because if he'd been killed In October of 1777 at Saratoga, there would be paintings of Arnold in the Capitol in Washington. There'll be statues of Arnold all over the U.S. instead, all we've got is this boot monument at Saratoga dedicated to the most brilliant soldier in the Continental Army. But they don't say who the soldier is. And of course, that's the ambiguity of Benedict Arnold and his achievement.
- [57:29]
Stephen Brumwell
An excellent note to end on. Stephen Brumwell is a writer and independent historian specializing in British American military affairs of the 18th century. We are talking about the book which I value on my shelf myself. It's called Turncoat Benedict Arnold and the Crisis of American Liberty. I recommend reading this to understand the strange and ambiguous dichotomy that is this great figure of American history. Thank you so much, Stephen. Nice to meet you. Thanks for being with us.
- [57:57]
Don Wildman
Thank you a lot, Don. And thank you for such a wonderful interview. I really enjoyed talking to you.
- [58:02]
Stephen Brumwell
Hey, thanks for listening to American History hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great. But you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American History hit with me. Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [58:53]
Don Wildman
Acast.com.
- [58:56]
Stephen Brumwell
Hey, do you want to hear the next big new tech podcast hit before anyone else, check out the daily tech news show Experiment Week. We're swapping out our normal shows to try out some new ideas. We've done this before and launched big hits like behind the Data, the Tech John and more. This year we have exclusive Android faithful reactions to the Pixel 9 event. It's all on the DTNS feed starting August 11th.
- [59:23]
Don Wildman
Don't miss it.
- [59:28]
Stephen Brumwell
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [59:34]
Don Wildman
Acast.com.