Bobby Kennedy: Assassination of a Future President

Summary

American History Hit: Bobby Kennedy - Assassination of a Future President

Introduction

In this compelling episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves deep into the tumultuous 1968 presidential campaign of Robert F. Kennedy (RFK). Co-hosted by Professor Patricia Sullivan, a distinguished historian of the civil rights movement and author of Justice Robert Kennedy's America in Black and White, the episode explores RFK's rise, his vision for America, the societal challenges of the era, and the tragic end that cut short what could have been a transformative presidency.

RFK's Entry into the 1968 Presidential Race

Don Wildman begins by setting the stage of 1968—a year marked by intense civil unrest, the ongoing Vietnam War, and significant social upheaval. RFK, serving as a senator from New York since 1965, officially entered the presidential race on March 16, 1968, amid declining support for President Lyndon B. Johnson (LBJ).

Professor Sullivan explains, “RFK didn’t originally intend to run in 1968. [04:43] He was focusing on his role as a senator, holding hearings on poverty and engaging with communities across the country.” However, several pivotal events, including the Tet Offensive in Vietnam and the Kerner Commission Report on urban riots, pushed him to seek the presidency as a means to address the nation's pressing issues.

Campaign Focus: Racial Equality, Economic Justice, and Vietnam

RFK's campaign was notably radical for its time, advocating for racial equality, economic justice, and an end to the Vietnam War—positions considered extreme in the late 1960s. Professor Sullivan emphasizes, “He was campaigning against embedded inequalities and racism, essentially speaking to white Americans about the need for change. [11:35] He wanted to bring black and white working together to move the country forward.”

RFK's platform resonated with the nation's growing desire for unity and progress. His approach was not just political but deeply empathetic, aiming to heal a fractured society. As Don Wildman reflects, “He was really the man for the times... an extraordinary moment filled with hope.”

Key Campaign Events and Victory

The campaign gained significant momentum as RFK won key primaries:

1. Indiana Primary: RFK won amidst the backdrop of Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination on April 4, 1968. Delivering a poignant speech in Indianapolis, RFK urged the nation to maintain faith and unity, stating, “I understand he was killed by a white man... [24:22]”

2. Washington and Nebraska Primaries: He continued his winning streak, securing 62% in Washington and 51% in Nebraska.

3. California Primary: On June 4, 1968, RFK won the California primary with 46% of the vote, positioning him as the frontrunner for the Democratic nomination.

Professor Sullivan notes, “Winning California was crucial because it was the real battleground... [30:44]”

Assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. and RFK’s Response

The assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. was a critical moment in RFK's campaign. Professor Sullivan recounts the emotional impact of RFK's response: “He delivered that speech in Indianapolis... [22:57] urging nonviolence, peace, and hope.”

RFK's ability to connect with both black and white Americans during this crisis showcased his deep empathy and commitment to healing the nation. His speech emphasized unity: “We have to confront these issues in a constructive way. [25:12]”

RFK's Tragic Assassination

Tragically, RFK's burgeoning campaign was cut short on June 5, 1968, shortly after his victory speech at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. As he returned to his kitchen after the speech, sirens sounded—Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian immigrant, opened fire. Amidst the chaos, RFK displayed remarkable composure, asking, “Is everybody okay?” [38:38] before succumbing to his injuries.

Professor Sullivan describes the scene: “He was lying on the floor, and his aide was hit first... [37:29]” The assassination echoed the earlier loss of his brother, JFK, underscoring the recurring tragedies that plagued the Kennedy family.

Aftermath and Historical Implications

Sirhan Sirhan was convicted and sentenced to death, which was later commuted to life without parole. Despite various theories, Sirhan has not provided a clear motive beyond his support for Israel, influenced by the political tensions of the era.

Professor Sullivan reflects on the "what ifs": “Had this not happened, Robert Kennedy was definitely going to win the nomination... [41:15]” The episode contemplates the profound impact RFK could have had on American politics and society, potentially altering the course of the Vietnam War, civil rights advancements, and the political landscape dominated by figures like Richard Nixon.

Conclusion: The Legacy of RFK’s Campaign

RFK's 1968 campaign is portrayed as a beacon of hope and unity during a time of deep national division. His empathetic approach, grounded in genuine concern for America's fractured state, set him apart from contemporaries and offered a stark contrast to Nixon's divisive strategies.

Professor Sullivan encapsulates RFK's legacy: “He was someone in the 20th century with enough passion, energy, and patience... he represented political fidelity, conversation, openings, and possibility. [43:19]”

Don Wildman closes the episode with a deep sense of loss for the potential that was never realized: “Everything that happened with Robert Kennedy's candidacy... leaves you deeply sad, all the possibilities that might have been. [43:45]”

Notable Quotes

• Don Wildman: “RFK is the man for the times... an extraordinary moment filled with hope.” [08:28]

• Professor Patricia Sullivan: “Robert Kennedy was moving forward and trying to build a fuller democracy and a better future.” [06:03]

• RFK during his Indianapolis speech: “I understand he was killed by a white man... [24:22]”

• Professor Patricia Sullivan: “He was someone in the 20th century with enough passion, energy and patience... [43:19]”

Final Thoughts

This episode of American History Hit not only chronicles the rise and tragic fall of Robert F. Kennedy's 1968 presidential campaign but also reflects on the broader societal shifts of the 1960s. Through insightful conversations and poignant historical analysis, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how RFK's vision and empathy might have reshaped America's future.

For those interested in exploring more about America’s intricate history and pivotal moments, be sure to subscribe and listen to future episodes of American History Hit.

Transcript

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[Don Wildman]

Hello all. Just a note for me before we get into this. This episode contains outdated strong language which has been used for historical context and accuracy. That night at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, standing in that crowd cheering, you were part of something big. A movement, a mission, a blooming spirit of hope. A presidential campaign that had stirred the soul of a nation. And then, as suddenly as it began, it was over. In the early morning moments of June 5, 1968, in a place once famously known for hosting the Academy Awards, now to be eternally remembered for bullets and blood, and another Kennedy brother fallen gasping for life. Hello and greetings. This is American History hit. I'm Don Wildman. Glad you're listening. Today's episode is a tale of an almost presidency, a presidential campaign which ended in tragic circumstances, similar in some ways to the death of the candidate's own brother, in whose former administration he had faithfully served. I'm speaking, of course, of Robert F. Kennedy, who, like his famous sibling, died of an assassin's bullet. Kennedy's short campaign for the presidency happened in a crucible. It was 1968. There was the ongoing civil rights struggle as black, brown, and indigenous Americans stood their ground against discrimination and poverty. Massive riots occurred across the Nation. In Watts, 1965, after Malcolm X was murdered in Detroit, Newark, Buffalo, 1967. And in 68, of course, after Dr. King met his sudden end on a Memphis balcony. These horrific events of civil unrest in those years seemed to finally culminate. And a fateful evening at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, where Robert Kennedy and his supporters celebrated victory in the California primary. Most predicted he would secure the Democratic nomination later that summer and face off against his brother's arch rival, Richard Nixon, a race seen by many as redemption for his family, in some ways for his brother's killing. But over the months, Kennedy's candidacy evolved into something greater, something more. An evolution politically, yes, but also an evolution of a man into an important cultural icon, one endeavoring to heal a fractured nation. Alas, it was not to be. We discussed this campaign and what led up to it with Professor Patricia Sullivan, an historian of the civil rights movement and author of Justice Robert Kennedy's America in Black and White. Welcome, Patricia. Nice to meet you.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Great to meet you, Don. And please call me Pat.

[Don Wildman]

Okay, thank you. What was RFK campaigning for in 1968 during these primaries? He doesn't enter the race until February, March. Because everybody assumes Johnson will run for reelection, right?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

That's right. I mean, it was really a continuation of what he's been doing and concerned about, you know, as a senator and prior to that. But I think the timing of his entering has a lot to do with what's happening in Vietnam and in the country and the nature of President Johnson's leadership or failed leadership, some would say. So it's a convergence of events that prompt him to finally enter, but he's continuing on doing what he's been doing as a senator and as a national figure.

[Don Wildman]

Rfk. What does that stand for? Robert Francis Kennedy.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Robert Francis Kennedy.

[Don Wildman]

That's right. One forgets you got JFK and RFK. Oh, my God. There's a lot of FKs going on. I should take a moment just to say these are extraordinary times we're talking about. I mean, I was a small, small person in those days, but I do remember how crowded the events were. It was very difficult times. And not only, as I say in the opening about the civil rights movement, but Vietnam is going on. There's all sorts of trouble happening all the time. And only five years before this, a president was assassinated, which is something we can't really conceive of these days. It hasn't happened for so long. But into this fray really is what RFK is about. He's jumping into this as a healing force. That's kind of the purpose of his campaign, isn't it?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Yeah. I mean, and as someone who can, it's a pivotal point, as you've mentioned, the 60s, a pivotal decade, a pivotal point in our history. And for all of the violence and disruptions, I mean, the transformations that really sparked by the civil rights movement with the sit INS In 1960, President Kennedy's administration, I mean, tremendous energy and a tremendous sense of possibility. You know, breaking down segregation, the voting, the Civil Rights act, the Voting Rights Act. And at the same time, as you've indicated, cities are exploding, starting really in 64 with Harlem and then Watts is huge. It's a moment of trying to imagine a future building on the strengths of what's happened in the 1960s. And I think Robert Kennedy, as someone who moved through this decade and was so much a part of it, given his place in public life, it was a sense of urgency, but also possibility to really build on this and, and a kind of faith in the capacity of America to actually move forward and overcome these huge deep problems and build a fuller democracy and a better future.

[Don Wildman]

Kennedy is waiting on lbj. I imagine there were back room discussions, I mean, indications at least that LBJ was dropping out or was RFK as surprised as the rest of us?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Totally surprised, Totally surprised. I mean, he enters the race March 16th and he hesitates for a number of reasons, but I think one is he didn't want to just run and bust up the Democratic Party and just create. You know, he was political and understood, not in a personal way, but. But after the Tet offensive, which, you know, it really demonstrates that America is not winning in Vietnam. So it really explodes the COVID on that. And then the Kernan Commission report on the urban uprisings that basically put the blame on our country and white Americans and on a failure of leadership. So those two things, it really pushed him in. And of course, after Ted Johnson was really weakened by that. So that's March 16th. And then on March 31st, Johnson pulls out of the race. And again for him, I think it's a combination of pressures, but I think Robert Kennedy, as he. They said it was his worst nightmare. Robert Kennedy entering the presidential race. And for Bobby Kennedy, it kind of took away the person he was challenging. But, you know, he maintained his footing and his campaign went forward, of course.

[Don Wildman]

But he was a senator from New York elected in 1964. He's been serving since 65. He's not even through his first term. Did he have the intention originally of running for president or not?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

I think what he was always said, and I think it's his actions demonstrate this. I think his age, we're thinking about 72, you know, 1972, I think he thought he would run someday, but 68, you know, I think he went day to day. And as he said, once, you know, once, you know, your brother is, you know, his head is blown off, you know, you go day by day. And again, it was such a fractious time and uncertain time. And he's, you know, he's a senator, as you point out. He's holding hearings on poverty. He's going around the country doing field hearings. So I think he was looking towards later and not particularly 68, because it wasn't possible to do it and do it effectively. Johnson was powerful. He was. And his ratings were high until Vietnam really started to turn right.

[Don Wildman]

People forget how radical his campaign was. I mean, they're sort of blinded by the Kennedy in this. It was for racial equality, economic justice, and to bring an end to the Vietnam War. All of these were extreme positions in this day.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Good point. You know, because they had. He had a lot of the wind at his back. I mean, there was so much again, the civil rights movement, the student movement, the anti war movement, you know, and it was sort of a testing to see how this. Well, not when he just did it, but I think there was a feeling that there was tremendous energy in this country. And he was also looking at the divisiveness and trying to help the country move beyond that.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

And again, this is the 60s. I think people had a different sense of that possibility and faith. And, you know, I think he really felt that he was tapping into something deep in the American spirit. And the divisiveness was something of deep concern, you know, in the wake of civil rights. And watch.

[Don Wildman]

It is really important to your point to remember this time as differently than the ones we live in today. I mean, you had America at the peak of its superpower, basically just beginning to get towards the 70s, when all that would start to be called in question. But the economy was. Was powerful. Certainly in the first half of the 60s, there was a sense of great possibility which went into, you know, what happens with. With Johnson and the Great Society. All that is in the air these days. And like you said, there's as much positive as negative in terms of societal changes that are happening here. So he's really the man for the times. I mean, it's. It's really remarkable. I remember that as just a kid, you know, his young face and all the. The sort of Kennedy legacy going on there. It was just an extraordinary moment. And. And so much as we will discuss in this conversation happens within his candidacy, it's really interesting. They end up making a Robert Redford movie based on him. Based, you know, the candidate. It was such a time. So let's talk about what he's fighting against, these embedded inequalities and racism. He's basically speaking to white people about things needing to change. Right?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

That's right. That it's really with them. You know, I think, you know, what he came to see during this period is, you know, I mean, the south was front and center. Segregation, the violent resistance, school desegregation and the rest. But then the city start. You know, he even saw before that the deep poverty and segregation generations in northern cities across the country. So that our history, the reckoning with our history was front and center for him. And it expressed itself in the south, in the north, and the inability of most white Americans to understand this. You know, they're reacting to what's happening. And so he and others like King and other people in our public life are really working to bring this to the attention of the country and white Americans and. Yeah, and of course, white students are active, so there's this opening towards doing that. But as he says, sad and new was essential for the country to kind of confront this so we could move forward and really deal with these issues in a constructive way.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, there are very famous moments in this evolution, primarily on race politics, really. I mean, his. His meeting with James Baldwin and other Black cultural leaders May 24th. This is back in the 63 before he's running 63. Yeah, he has the. There's a famous conversation with Jerome Smith, who's a young bus rider back in the Freedom Rides. This polemic against the government. I mean, that whole period of these freedom rides and all that sort of thing is really an extraordinary idea in this country where so many students especially, and other people are going down to the south to do a. With voter registration. Kennedy's aware of all this stuff, but he's going to make a great move. I mean, he's going to develop attitudes during this time period that really change. Right. About race in America.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

You know, I Mean, his Justice Department that he built from the get go, from the time they got in in 61, to really, you know, put the power of the Justice Department behind enforcing voting rights laws that were on the books. And so he's engaged in a very direct way. I mean, his Justice Forum is extraordinary. And they connect up with Bob Moses and people in Mississippi and they see the limits of that. I mean, the power of these white southern officials from the state level to the local, to just block everything. And then his attention, you know, he goes to Harlem, east Harlem in 1961, he starts to face these, the urban realities of segregation. So he's exposed. But then how he grows in that understanding and what he can do in his capacity as Attorney General is really an important part of the story. I mean, I think there's a real evolution that people think there's a big transformation at some point, but I think there's an evolution and a growth that's really important to understanding him.

[Don Wildman]

He becomes Attorney General during Kennedy's presidency. How does that time shape him?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

It often is overlooked that these years are formative for Robert Kennedy. And we see him responding to the problems, the challenges in the south. Cause they're, you know, the mass movements are taking place and people are pushing for the vote to end segregation. And he makes it a priority. The Justice Department, he quadruples the number of lawyers in the Civil Rights division and they see what's the basic right to vote, how it is totally denied in all kinds of ways. Terror, violence, lawlessness. So that's an opening for that. And then he begins to travel around. During the campaign, they were traveling, he saw the poverty in cities and the segregation in cities, and they crushed lives. And so he sets up a program to try to help deal with that through several agencies. So he's seeing. And then through these programs, he's learning about resistance, about race. And by the 63, he's saying that this problem is huge. And if you think it's going to be solved just by legislation, I mean, it is deep. And so he just has that understanding through that experience as Attorney general and his brother's top advisor, you know, the violence around, the desegregation of Ole Miss and all the rest, and is prepared as he moves on into the next part of his life to really begin to continue to face that and try to figure out how to bring the country to deal with it.

[Don Wildman]

On this show, of course, we always talk about the 1860s and 70s as the time of so many changes in the Constitution and so forth. But this is 100 years later. So this is the centennialist. How much were the, I don't remember it being articulated in that fashion, though. How much were the Kennedys aware of this time period as being so meaningful?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Completely. I mean, they, first of all, they're both students of history. And you know, when JFK gave his famous civil rights speech in 1963, which he and Bobby drafted minutes before he went on television, was right after the showdown at the University of Alabama with George Wallace. It's been 100 years, the president said, since the Emancipation Proclamation. They're very mindful of that end of reconstruction. And so this, this comes up and, and so, and of course, the civil rights movement, free by 63, you know, they're pushing that to the, to the front that 100 years since the Emancipation Proclamation. So it's very much. And it's. Yeah, as you say, it's really ironic. A century later, this is Brenton center dividing the country again. The possibility for building on what happened, you know, the promises of reconstruction. So, yeah, the historical arc is pretty amazing.

[Don Wildman]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

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[Don Wildman]

In 68 how much is he dividing himself from the so famous trauma of everything that's happened five years ago versus what's ahead for them? I mean it's how much of it is he serving? The legacy of his brother at this.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Point, I think he's a person about the future and he and his brother work together. He grows from that experience. And your point about the trauma of the assassination? I mean that impacts him in all kinds of ways, but he's moving forward and I think the assassination of his brother really taught him about life, just the fragile nature of life. And it becomes more existential in his thinking and his approach. So I think it doesn't free him in a way that it's a positive thing, but it frees him in a way that he is much more able to face the deep problems and to use his position. What he knows, his, I won't say power, but he has an ability to move through this country in this moment, politically that is unique. The legacy of what they attempted to do around race and civil rights, but, but on a larger scale, the country is moving. Things are changing.

[Don Wildman]

The race we're about to talk about, I mean, sadly ends after just a few months, but. So I want to just put a pin in what we were talking about there for a moment. He was the attorney general under his brother's administration. That's an extraordinarily powerful position, of course, as we know, but also he has a deep knowledge of the levers of power, the legal levers of power in this country. It's an extraordinary opportunity he has because he understands so much more than perhaps your average presidential candidate. He really knows how the, how the levers work. So 1968, the campaign officially begins in Indiana. Who is he running against in these Democratic primaries.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Well, actually, he launches the campaign. Yeah, the first primaries, Indiana, you know, he every declares on March 16, he does a two weeks visits, 16 states, just a barnstorming to get out there, get the energy, be present. And then Indiana, as you point out, he runs in the primary. And in that state, that's really an important state because people look at him as someone who black voters are completely, almost completely in his camp. But Indiana has 9% of their population is African American. It's a state that has southern whites who've migrated in ethnic, but it's a white state. So going into that, someone said it's a risk. The whole campaign is a risk. But this was a proving ground. And even though Johnson had, by this time, Johnson is out, but he had a favorite son. The governor of the state. Brannigan ran as the favorite son candidate as a sort of a placeholder for Hubert Humphrey. Right. And then he had Gene McCarthy who'd been in the race since November of 67. So that was quite a lineup. And that campaign, I mean, he travels through the state and he wins. Of course, in the midst of that campaign, Martin Luther King is assassinated in the midst of the Indiana.

[Don Wildman]

That is one of the biggest major thing that happens during that is the assassination of Martin Luther King. And this is April 4th, 1968. RFK delivers a very famous speech in response. Where does he do that and what does he say in that speech?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

He delivers that speech in Indianapolis. He's on his way to Indianapolis from campaigning over there, and he learns that King has been shot. Before he got on the planning, it was in the predominantly black neighborhood part of Indianapolis. John Lewis helped organize the event. And he arrives there at night, late. He's on the back of a flatbed truck. And the people, I mean, this is for us to understand today. Most of the people have not heard that King was assassinated because of the way we communicate news. Back then, nobody had cell phones. They're waiting in this place. And so Robert Kennedy announces that to this crowd of mostly African American, but there's white people there as well. You know, it's just shock. And then he just. The gasp. I mean, and just that when you think of that moment and then he just speaks extemporaneously what happened, what King meant, you know, how appealing to people to not lose the faith. And one of the things he says in that speech, you know, he says, I understand he was killed by a white man. And if black people want to be angered as white people, but I have a family member A family member, he said, who was also assassinated by a white person. And that's the only time in public that RFK mentioned his brother's assassination.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

John Lewis describes this moment and that he just had everybody with him and just appealed to what King represented. Nonviolence, peace, hope in the country, and that black and white working together to move our country forward. And it's just an extraordinary moment, you know, 10 minutes, which is recorded.

[Don Wildman]

Do they know about Martin Luther King?

[Unknown]

I have some very sad news for all of you, and that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight in Memphis.

[Don Wildman]

He has such an empathetic tone to his voice. It's such a warm. And it does immediately smack of a sense of love, honestly, is what you feel from him and from the audience, which at that moment is extraordinary to feel. And maybe I'm projecting, but it seems palpable.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

And I think your point earlier, I mean, I think his sense of tragedy, you know, having lost his brother that way, just connected him in a visceral way, you know, not in a performative way.

[Don Wildman]

Sad currency. He's had capital to have, but that's what he has going into it. People know what he's been through, and the whole country went through it with him.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

And the empathy, though you're pointing about, the empathy is genuine.

[Don Wildman]

The irony, of course, is that Robert Kennedy as Attorney General, was part of wiretapping King. I mean, the two men were allies, but never friends.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Yeah, well, especially in that earlier period. And, you know, there's a whole story behind that. I mean, I mean, he never would disagree that that was the wrong thing to do. But Hoover. I mean, the power of J. Edgar Hoover and how Bobby Kennedy pushed back on that more than any other attorney general prior or after. But on this, they had evidence that King was talking to Stanley, all this backstory, and they were trying to get a civil rights bill forward so, you know, and Hoover could go. So it was navigating that, and okay, you know, you can have it. And he put a time limit on it, like three months. And that was up. JFK was dead by the time that was up. But he did authorize the wiretap. And that's different from bugging hotel rooms. People should understand that. Which, you know, that's a whole nother story that the Kennedys were not at all involved in. But, yeah, so there is that. That piece. But again, the power of the FBI and. And. And his relationship with King, though, that's one of the things I found really interesting when working on this Book how that evolved. Because they weren't, you know, they didn't really see each other. They were kind of from 65 forward, they are aligned in their concerns about the urban uprisings, in their concerns about poverty, in their concerns about the war in Vietnam. And you know, they really are sympathetic and in ways that they both are sort of connected, you know, not talking, but in a way that is really powerful to see how that relationship moves across the decade and what they both come to share and represent.

[Don Wildman]

Was RFK aligned with lbj, although the Great Society programs, did he agree with how those were being deployed?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

He testified in enthusiastic support of the war on poverty. But the war on poverty, as Martin Luther King said in 1966, was barely a skirmish. And they had hearings and a fascinating series of hearings that Ribicoff and Kennedy chaired trying to expose the poverty across the country and the need for a more robust and organized attacked on poverty in communities. And in that context, Robert Kennedy helps establish a Bedford Stuyvesant project, which is community engaged, community run programs that deal with the particular issues that the community faces within that case, a support of federal money and some private money. So by 66, certainly they saw that Johnson was not a war on poverty. Many important programs were enacted, but they were just, you know, there were no jobs included in these programs ever. There was job training for jobs that weren't there by 67. And so that's an interesting piece of the history. And he and King testified before that committee and just said it's famously that riots were the language of the unheard. That's in 1966.

[Don Wildman]

Isn't it extraordinary to reflect on how different people thought then of what the government could do in an activist mode? I mean, people today, certainly young people, just have no idea how it felt in the 60s about the government fixing things. There was great enthusiasm, there was a belief that things would happen. And whether you agree with those programs or not, the world is an entirely different place today than it was then. I mean, you have to imagine incredibly difficult slums and really horrible conditions in the cities that were being reacted to by the government. And we, at least my parents, I know, put their faith in the fact that the government could do something about that.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Totally. But I think the thing about King and Kennedy and people coming here, the civil rights community like Bob Moses and others, the active engagement of communities through voting, organizing to put the kind of make the kind of demand that makes programs responsive to their needs. So yes, the programs are a major opening. The federal government is taking some responsibility. But Then what the programs look like, how they serve people, how much appropriations they get versus a war in Vietnam. Yeah, it's all in play. And you're so correct. It was really a promising time and shows there's no substitute for that. The government of the people and people responding to the government and helping it to respond to their needs in a constructive way. Yeah.

[Don Wildman]

The next three primaries after Indiana are Washington, RFK wins in with 62% of the vote there. Nebraska, he wins again, 51%. Closer, closer contest. And Oregon, McCarthy won that one with 43%. It's important to note that Eugene McCarthy was really. He had staked out the ground of anti Vietnam for years before that. He really, you know, he had a huge support among college students who can't vote, by the way, the 21. And it's not 18 until 1971. But then comes California. Let's talk about this race in California, a much more conservative state than it. Than it is today. It wasn't the pure blue that we know it today. What's at stake out there for him?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

This is it. You know, I mean after, after losing Oregon, the first race that Kennedy ever lost. You know, California is the ball game. And so that's that. And I think Your point about McCarthy is important that he was as vocal. He came out against the war in end of 67 vocally and ran for president. No racial policy, no civil rights agenda, no anti poverty agenda. So I think that's. Kennedy was not brought that to it. And McCarthy was pretty much a one issue candidate, important issue. But with everything going on in the country at that point, there were certainly other things that needed attention. So California is everything.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, yeah. Watts happened the year RK was elected as senator. What has been his reaction to the rioting in the cities over these years?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Well, he had, you know, after. I mean Watts was such a turning point because it was huge. And it really put this issue on the table of the cities and what. And the discontent is a mild word. So the response to Watts was across the board, calls for law and order. That was when that became a big cry. And King went to Watts and really saw this as central. We have to deal with these urban issues. And Robert Kennedy was asked about Watts and this law and order theme. And he said, how can you ask the Negro in Bed Stuy in Harlem to obey the law when the law is always used against him? Black people have a different relationship to the law. So understanding that and using that platform not to, okay, got to deal with what happened and restore kind of order there. But you have to look at what's behind these things. And he really understood the issues of the criminal justice system, of police brutality as being a trigger for these uprisings that really respond to the awful conditions that people are living in.

[Don Wildman]

It was sincere. That was the feeling that people had. It was more than just a pandering for the vote. It was a genuine understanding and sincerity about, we get it. This needs to change, and I have some ideas to change it.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

It's a tough political position if you're looking to win votes. But again, he had a faith in the a. That you had to face this issue, that it was going to get. You know, it was just deep, and it was a. A legacy of our past. And I think he had a faith in Americans to come along if they could see. You know, I mean, he's going into these cities. He sees the conditions and just to help people see and see this as an American problem for the country and a problem that, you know, white Americans needed to take the lead in solving in terms of their, you know, supporting policies and the rest.

[Don Wildman]

There's a photo that my producer sent me of RFK campaigning in the Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles. You can see in just his posture, he is utterly approachable. He's right there on a flatbed, as we say. Humility, which is. And that's the Kennedy we're talking about. I mean, maybe it's the younger brother thing, but it's not how people saw him in the JFK administration, by the way. He was a real pit bull. I mean, he was. He was understood to be a real gnarly guy back then. I always think of, like, how Rahm Emanuel was depicted in the early days of the Obama administration. Real prickly. You know, that's how RFK was seen back in those days. But this is a different man who's running for president and hands outstretched and shaking and a smile on his face. There's a demeanor of empathy, as we've said. I guess that's the main theme of this conversation, isn't it?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Empathy and comfort.

[Don Wildman]

Comfort.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

These are people he really, you know, I mean, he. Kennedy, you know, just. What did Marion Wright, Elmo say? He went, he saw, he listened, he grew. He's been wandering all over the country for the past eight years and going into cities, going into urban areas. And so there's tremendous empathy and sort of connectedness, I think. I mean, after the Watts rebellion, he helped. The Watts Writers Workshop was set up. Bud Shulman and other people. Kennedy contributed to that. I mean he, you know, so there's a genuine sort of feeling of association as well as empathy, as you say. And their response to him, as you mentioned in that photo, people are just very much engaged with him, comfortable with him and believe him, you know, trust him. So, yeah, he wins.

[Don Wildman]

He wins the California primary with 46% of the vote on June 4, 1968. And this is when the fateful things happen. Before we dive into the events of this assassination, just listeners register what we've said. Imagine this moment that this man has attained where he gives a sense of hope to a nation which is riven and people are seeing in Kennedy a real chance. There's a way out of a lot of the problems that we have, only to have it all end in the early morning hours of June 5, 1968. I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

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[Don Wildman]

Kennedy was making a victory speech. 46% of the votes. Still a very close election. So people didn't know where this was going to go. Exactly. And so it was a big celebration at the Ambassador Hotel. My thanks to all of you. And now it's on to Chicago and let's win there. He's standing at the podium and he's giving this victory speech at which point he thanks his Supporters and heads back into the kitchen. And I'll throw it to you, Pat, to take it from there.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Yeah. So he's walking through this kitchen, shaking hands with people working in the kitchen and talking, actually, to a radio reporter about what's gonna happen next. And Humphrey will be on the scene, and then, boom. And the reporter says, oh, my God, he's been shot. I mean, it happens just like that. And chaos in the kitchen and people jumping onto, you know, Sir Hans Sirhan just in a flash, and he's, you know, lying on the floor. The famous story of the busboy who had served him dinner at night, leaning down next to him, putting rosary beads on his hat through his fingers. And then Ethel, you know, finding her way in to be by her husband's side. I mean, the scene is just. And he asks, is everybody okay? While he's lying there, is everybody okay? His close aide, Paul Schrad, was the first one hit. And then he is unconscious, and they take him right.

[Don Wildman]

There are bullets ricocheting around. It's. He's really firing in different directions. I did not know that he was conscious enough at that moment to ask if people were okay.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Is everybody okay all these years, or is anyone hurt? Yeah, really.

[Don Wildman]

So let's talk about Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian brought up in Georgia. What was his beef with rfk?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

That's a deep, complicated story. You know, he did support aid to Israel, but, you know, there's a lot of confusion around Sirhan Sirhan, and he did fire. But I did go out and interview Paul Frad, who was, again, UAW guy who worked on a campaign here in California. And, you know, there's many people think. And they said that there was another gunman. I mean, I just want to put that out there. People can go read, and there's some interesting stuff to read. There's a lot of inspiratory, but just thoughtful assessments. So what was his beef? I mean, that would be the explanation since he is a Palestinian. And, you know, but. And ironically, Kennedy had traveled to the Middle east in 1948. He saw the problems there. He was supportive towards Israel having a state, but the refugee problem of Palestinians, he'd gone back with his brother. That was it. In 51, he visited refugee camps, and Sirhansaharan was in a refugee camp as a child. So, yeah, I mean, there's a lot to sort out around that, I think.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, we're not far from the Six Day War, 1967, against the Arab neighbors. You know, tensions are very inflamed.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

As part of that, tensions are inflamed. That's right.

[Don Wildman]

And many are surprised today that Suran. Suran is still alive. He was convicted of this murder on April 17, 1969. Sentenced to death at that moment. But the death penalty is then declared unconstitutional in California. Violation of cruel and unusual punishment. And therefore his sentence is commuted to life without parole. It has not been. Yeah, well, 17 times he's come up for parole.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

And Paul Shradd, Al Lowenstein was also involved in this early on before he was gone in really trying to get to the bottom of what had really happened. But. But, yeah, so. But he's still in prison, you're right, for all these years.

[Don Wildman]

And has he ever come out and explained himself?

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

No, not that. I mean, not that I know of. He says he. He didn't.

[Don Wildman]

Isn't that weird? That to me it seems the weirdest part of all.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Well, you read into it, it's. Yeah, but again I said I came all the way out here to interview Paul Shradd, who was the first one hit. UAW guy, not a conspiracy theorist. There are a lot of questions still looming around what happened and how it happened and if you know. Sure, but the key point is it did happen. Right. And.

[Don Wildman]

And this is not a conversation about that conspiracy theory. It's about the effect of his death and the hope of his campaign. Nonetheless, it is worth. I will tell people, it's worth looking into because it's as confusing as JFK's assassination, if you want to go there.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

No, it's true.

[Don Wildman]

Counterfactually, if I may, had this not happened, Robert Kennedy was definitely going to win the nomination after winning California.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

I think so. And everyone I've interviewed for the book who were involved and reading. Yes, it's clear that he would have. Definitely.

[Don Wildman]

At which point he would have gone into a presidential campaign against Richard Nixon. I mean, how weird was that going to be? The Kennedys again versus Nixon. It's incredible to think of.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

No, that's right. And again, if you as a historian does that wishful thinking, I think he would have been a very strong challenger.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. And then you end up with all the other implications. The fact that in order to win, Nixon really had to woo the Southern Democrats and take the south away from the Democrats through that whole thing. And that begins the, you know, eventually the war on crime and all these things that happen. You can imagine being handled much differently under a Robert Kennedy administration. Nevermind Vietnam and all of those things. He had a mind and a heart that was capable of dealing with these problems and these challenges on a much more elevated level than I think they were actually handled.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

And bringing people along. I mean, he, you know, bringing people along. I mean, engaging what so much energy in this country in that direction and helping, I think, to build. And your point about Nixon? Nixon won by dividing. Kennedy's aspiration was to transcend, to unite and really believe in. That's not easy. It's hard work. But American people can see. Can move in this direction. So just such different messages. And one thing about Nixon as a historian, he started the Southern strategy in 1960. I mean, he gave an address in South Carolina and Columbia at the end of the campaign, really appealing to white Southerners to come over to the Republican Party because, you know, they were losing the Democratic Party and civil rights. So. Yeah, but to contemplate that is sort of like Hoover versus Roosevelt, you know, what would have happened if Hoover won. These two very different ways of thinking about America moving forward at a moment of pivotal historical moment.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, interesting. It's very microcosmic, this particular election that was not to be in terms of the division or unity of this country. Everything that happened with Robert Kennedy's candidacy, short as it was, was about bringing people together. That was really the theme and the tenor of his entire candidacy versus Nixon, which was indeed exactly the opposite. It leaves you deeply sad, all the possibilities that might have been.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

One thing I'd like to mention is, you know, after his assassination, Gene Stein and George Clinton interviewed lots of people who were on the train when they took him back to Washington, and just people who were engaged with Kennedy in his life. But one of them was James Baldwin. And of course, Baldwin had that famous meeting in 63 and everything. He sat there for three hours, people. It was real tense. And it really reflected where the country was at in a lot of ways. And what Baldwin said about Bobby Kennedy, he talked about those assassinations in the 60s, five, starting with Med Grabbers, JFK, Malcolm King and Kennedy. But he said about Bobby, he was someone in the 20th century with enough passion, energy and patience. Think about that. Passion, energy and patience. And what he said about JFK and Robert Kennedy, they had minds that could be reached and what that means in terms of political fidelity, mind. Then there's conversation, there's openings, there's possibility. And he said, and that's gone because 1970. And he said he'd been president for two years. But I think James Baldwin's reflection in that moment in 1970, not in the heat of battle, but looking at the decade and what someone like Robert Kennedy represented is insightful.

[Don Wildman]

Always good to have James Baldwin have the last words. Professor Patricia Sullivan, a historian of civil rights movement and author of Justice Robert Kennedy's America in Black and White. Thank you so much for this conversation. I'm really grateful.

[Professor Patricia Sullivan]

Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Don Wildman]

Hey, thanks for listening to American History hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American History hit with me. Don Wildman so grateful for your support.

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