Frederick Douglass: Civil War to Statesman

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Frederick Douglass: Civil War to Statesman"

Introduction

In the February 13, 2025 episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves deeper into the illustrious life of Frederick Douglass, focusing on his pivotal role during the Civil War and his transformation into a formidable statesman post-war. Don is joined by Sidney Morrison, an accomplished author and former history teacher, to explore Douglass's enduring legacy and impact on American society.

Douglass's Relationship with John Brown

The episode begins by examining the complex relationship between Frederick Douglass and the radical abolitionist John Brown. Sidney Morrison reveals that Douglass and Brown initially formed a friendship based on mutual abolitionist goals. However, their paths diverged due to differing strategies in the fight against slavery.

"John Brown and Frederick Douglass became friends, actually. But they disagreed from the very beginning because John Brown was already advocating slave rebellion and the arming of slaves." (04:41)

Douglass, at the time, was aligned with the Garrisonian pacifist movement, seeking to end slavery through moral persuasion. Over time, witnessing the escalating tensions and failures of political solutions, Douglass grew more open to the possibility of armed struggle, though he ultimately chose not to participate in Brown's ill-fated raid on Harper's Ferry.

Douglass's Views on the Civil War

Sidney Morrison elaborates on Douglass's perception of the Civil War as an inevitable and necessary confrontation to dismantle the entrenched slave power within the federal government.

"He saw the coming of the war as the necessary, a protracted encounter with the slave power, which by 1860 was in complete control of the federal government." (08:47)

Douglass's disenchantment with American politics, especially after the Dred Scott decision of 1857, led him to believe that peaceful political reforms were insufficient. He advocated for a more forceful approach, encapsulated in his belief that "power is not relinquished without a struggle" (10:32).

Impact on Douglass's Family

Douglass's unwavering commitment to the abolitionist cause had profound effects on his personal life, particularly concerning his family. Both of his sons, Louis and Charles, enlisted in the famed 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment, one of the first African American units in the Union Army.

"Louis's enlistment was not just an act of patriotism but a declaration against the prevailing stereotypes of black soldiers being cowardly." (13:51)

The decision was met with fear and resistance from his wife, highlighting the personal sacrifices and familial tensions that accompanied their public roles in the war effort.

Douglass’s Interactions with Abraham Lincoln

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Douglass's interactions with President Abraham Lincoln. Initially, Douglass sought to influence Lincoln to improve pay and conditions for black soldiers and to ensure their recognition as equal citizens.

"When word got to Lincoln that Douglass was there, Douglass was immediately invited in, really upsetting all the other people who were waiting for hours... this was a measure of Frederick Douglass's prestige and renown." (21:09)

Despite his efforts, Douglass faced barriers in securing a formal commissioned officer position, leading him to undertake a mission to recruit black soldiers, albeit without the official support he had anticipated.

"Douglass was very touched by Lincoln's humility and sense of mission about the destiny of America." (27:44)

Reconstruction and Political Engagement

Post-Civil War, Douglass remained a staunch advocate for Reconstruction, emphasizing the importance of constitutional governance and political engagement to protect the rights of freedmen. However, he encountered significant resistance from figures like Thaddeus Stevens within the Radical Republican Party, who feared that Douglass's prominence would hinder Reconstruction efforts.

"He became very committed to Grant and again to political engagement." (34:28)

Douglass's frustration grew as the pledges for Reconstruction were undermined, particularly with the rise of Andrew Johnson's administration, which opposed key amendments like the 14th Amendment that granted citizenship to African Americans.

Later Life and Legacy

In his later years, Douglass continued to strive for recognition and influence within the political sphere. Despite holding symbolic positions, such as the presidency of the Freedmen's Bank, he often found himself sidelined from substantive political roles. His acquisition of the Cedar Hill estate in Washington, D.C., symbolized his remarkable journey from enslavement to becoming one of the most esteemed figures in American history.

Sidney Morrison reflects on Douglass's enduring legacy, emphasizing his unwavering belief in the American promise of freedom and inclusion, even in the face of rampant discrimination and political setbacks.

"If Douglass, of all people, could keep faith in America, why can't we all?" (44:45)

Concluding Reflections

The episode concludes with Sidney Morrison's heartfelt tribute to Douglass, highlighting his remarkable achievements, resilience, and the profound impact of his self-education and eloquent advocacy. Morrison underscores Douglass's role as a beacon of hope and an enduring symbol of the American ideal.

"He is a representative of the passion of educating himself to become this eloquent writer and speaker and represents the finest fruits of self-education and of learning and memorizing and talking with and writing with such brilliance." (47:29)

Don Wildman wraps up the episode by acknowledging Sidney Morrison's contributions and encouraging listeners to explore more about Douglass's life and legacy through Morrison's work.

Conclusion

This episode of American History Hit offers a comprehensive exploration of Frederick Douglass's strategic and personal journey during and after the Civil War. Through insightful discussions and poignant quotes, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of Douglass's pivotal role in shaping American history and his relentless pursuit of justice and equality.

Transcript

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[Don Wildman]

Corinthian Hall Rochester, New York July 5, 1852 Frederick Douglass has been speaking on the dais for about an hour. The heat in the hall has elevated with the intensity of his words, but excepting for one or two restless souls, the audience remains transfixed. His voice rings out as he delivers what will become known as one of his most famous and searing lines of oratory. What, to the American slave, Douglass asks, is your Fourth of July? I answer, a day that reveals to him, more than any other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. Less than a decade later, the United States will be torn asunder by a war fought over the very issue of slavery. What role will Douglass play in that tortured struggle? And how will he carry his fight for justice beyond that conflict into the new America he has helped to create? Hello, all, this is American History. Hit. I'm Don Wildman. Frederick Douglass, born enslaved in Talbot county, Maryland in 1818, overcame unimaginable adversity to become a leading light in the fight against slavery, escaping enslavement. As a young man, he taught himself to read and write, becoming a renowned orator and best selling author, not to mention eventually the publisher of his own newspaper, the Northern Star, advocating for abolition and equality. By 1860, he had become a celebrity figure in the North, a free man now a husband and father living in Rochester, New York, and facing down, along with the rest of the nation, the inevitability of Civil war. We spent a previous episode of this podcast on the earlier chapters of Frederick Douglass astonishing biography. And today we go further, discussing his years during the Civil War and beyond, again with an accomplished writer himself, Sidney Morrison, author of Frederick Douglass, a novel. Sidney is a former history teacher and school principal in the Los Angeles area, and it's great to have him back. Hello, Sidney. Welcome once again to American History. Hit.

[Sidney Morrison]

Thank you so much, Don. I was quite delighted when you invited me back after our discussion a few weeks ago. And we just barely got to the Civil War and Frederick Douglass lived 35 more years, and so we had much more to talk about.

[Don Wildman]

So when we last spoke, we were approaching the events leading up to the vigilante attack, John Brown's attack on Harper's Ferry. How well did Douglass know about John Brown and was he tempted to take part in that?

[Sidney Morrison]

That relationship is something that many people do not know, that Frederick Douglass and John Brown met. In 1848, another black abolitionist recommended that he meet John Brown, who lived in Springfield, Massachusetts. And so he. John Brown invited him and they talked. And John Brown and Frederick Douglass became friends, actually. But they disagreed from the very beginning because John Brown was already advocating slave rebellion and the arming of slaves. And Douglass at that time was still committed to the Garrisonian pacifist movement of trying to persuade people spiritually. But over time, as events progressed, Douglass became more and more convinced that an uprising would be necessary. But John Brown's original plan was to arm slaves throughout the north and the south and free people. And then in some way, he spontaneously thought that once the word got out that there was an uprising, slaves would rise up and free themselves. But in 1859, after Douglass had met, even allowed John Brown to live in his home for weeks at a time as he was organizing this rebellion and writing a constitution where he was going to be the commander in chief. By the way, he changed his plans without telling Douglass until they met in 1859. That's when Brown revealed that the old Klan was not viable, that something more dramatic had to be done, and that had to be the assault on Harpers Ferry. And Douglass was appalled because he knew that it was suicide. He just said it's suicidal, and that it would be a war against the federal government, not just against slavery. And if you've ever been to Harpers Ferry, when you look down from the hills above and see the Susquehanna and the Potomac join at Harpers Ferry, you could tell that it was a trap, because all you had to do was, there's a train that crosses Harpers Ferry, and that train could shut off any escape. And that's what happened. So he said, no, I'm not going to go. And John Brown was very disappointed. He begged him to come with him, and he said no. And so he. Unfortunately, when Douglass left, he learned later that John Brown had incriminating letters from Douglass and others with him. And so when he was arrested, the government put out a warrant for Frederick. So he had to leave. He rushed home, and then his friends urged him to go to Canada, and there he stayed for a while, but they feared. His friends feared extradition. And so he left Canada and went to England.

[Don Wildman]

Wow. Okay. He finally returns home in 1860, right?

[Sidney Morrison]

Yes, he does. Upon the death of his youngest child, Annie. Yes, yes. And this was a devastating blow. I believe that she was his favorite, and she adored him and was quite devastated by his sudden departure. And then she dies, and he returns. By then, the war is not yet started, but the government determines that they don't want to make a martyr of Frederick Douglass. After seeing the impact of the martyrdom, quote, unquote, of John Brown, they didn't want any more martyrs, and so they did not arrest him. And then the war came.

[Don Wildman]

So what were Douglass's thoughts on the Civil War, generally speaking, at the start of this thing? Where did he see. How did he see the urgency of it, and how would it unfold for him in his mind? I mean, this is a brilliant man we're talking about. He understands the implications of this battle.

[Sidney Morrison]

Yes. He saw the coming of the war as the necessary into a protracted encounter with the slave power, which by 1860 was in complete control of the federal government. The party in power, the Democrats, controlled the House and the Senate and the presidency. And the Supreme Court. Supreme Court had just issued in 1857, the Dred Scott decision, which declared that black people had no rights of appeal of any kind, that the federal government could not prohibit the expansion of slavery, and that black people were not even citizens of the United States. So by then, Douglass lost complete faith in the even American politics. He thought that the Constitution was essentially a document that could be the framework for the abolition of slavery. But with the 1857 Jed Scott decision and simply the election of all these people who supported slavery, he saw that a political solution was not possible. And by then he was very despairing of the possibilities of change without violence. And so when John Brown went to Kansas and started waging a war there and Missouri, he became more inclined towards seeing that war was the only way that emancipation could occur. Because he did say that power is not relinquished without a struggle. It has never been and never will be.

[Don Wildman]

I find this to be the most extraordinary moment in understanding this man's psychology because this is a formerly enslaved person. He's now become a very famous person and quite accomplished best selling author, et cetera, et cetera. But how much of a horror show is he looking at here with this country where he had been in shackles is now right to the very top declaring that this is a, an unchangeable situation, the Supreme Court deciding, and yet he digs in on the fate of the United States of America as if this place cares about him at all. Yeah, it's amazing to me that somebody at this time, especially who was traveling the world, that's why I mentioned his success. He could take his family, go to Canada, he could go to England, he had many friends there. Yeah, it's amazing to me that he digs in on the destiny with which this nation is headed for. Why would he even care?

[Sidney Morrison]

That is, I think, a dilemma that black Americans face. And it's called the Dilemma of Black Patriotism. The book called Jefferson's the Founding Fathers and the Dilemma of Black Patriotism. How could you love a country that was committed to your inferiority? How could you love a country that said that despite its declarations that all men are created equal, committed in its structures and in its loss to white supremacy? And I think it's a fundamental question that needs to be addressed. And Douglass faced it. And what he came to terms with was that he profoundly believed in the American promise of inclusion and of freedom for all. Although the founders, even from the very beginning, failed to live up to that dream, he felt that America had the possibility of doing so. So he was not, he was from Very early in his career, an opponent to the colonization movement, which called for black people to leave the country and go to either Liberia or to South America. And in fact, the first notice of his powers as a speaker was because he spoke up against colonization. And that first notice was in the Garrisonian, the liberator. So he believed in America very early, I think, not only because of the beliefs of the ideals. There was a part of his temperament who said, I am born here, I'm an American, and you're not going to make me leave. We are Americans. And even when Lincoln, as late as 1864, suggested that the problem for race in America was for black people to leave, Douglass told Lincoln, we will not leave. We are Americans. Groups of people do not immigrate. Individuals or groups do not, and we will not. And I think it's that idealism that kept him so committed to the promise of America.

[Don Wildman]

So I understand his own view, sort of amazing, brilliant view of this whole thing in his head. But he's also committing his sons to this battle as well.

[Sidney Morrison]

Yes.

[Don Wildman]

He has two sons, Louis and Charles. Both serve in the famous 54th, the All Black Infantry.

[Sidney Morrison]

Yes.

[Don Wildman]

What did this do in his own family? I mean, it must have frightened his wife, right?

[Sidney Morrison]

Yes. In fact, one of my favorite scenes in the novel is when Louis, the oldest, says, I want to enlist because there's an excitement. And the excitement is we have a chance to prove that we loved our country and we're going to fight for it. And so when it becomes clear that Lincoln has changed his mind, because by 1863, for a variety of reasons, especially military reasons, he needs black soldiers. And so his sons are some of the earliest volunteers. And the reaction from Frederick is ambiguous because he's now calling for a war that might kill his children. And so there's an irony there. But I also wrote a scene in which this announcement is made when Frederick comes, calls his family and says, the war has come and we can now enlist. Louis mother opposes his enlistments. And she says essentially, not only frightened, as a mother would be, she says, america doesn't love you. They're not worth your death. And in the scene, which I imagined, I imagine Louis standing up for himself and says, mother, you don't know what you're talking about. This is America. I am free to do this. And she's so shocked because she ran that house with an iron fist. She slaps him, and then he says, he will not back down. He said, this is my country. She says, no, it's not. And he said, yes, it is. This is my country. It was, for me, one of the most powerful ways to dramatize this conflict that impacted families, white and black, throughout the United States. Age. Some families were divided, some families were willing to. You know, there are families that. Look, I remember watching the Ken Burns documentary that still is really powerful, where one mother lost five of her sons to the war. So this is very impactful in many ways to many people. But he was so committed to. To proving that the boys were so committed to proving that they were worthy of not only of enlistment, but proving that they were courageous and that they were capable of fighting. Because there was a presumed assumption amongst most white soldiers, most white Americans, that black people were cowards, would not be good fighters. And there was an element of. Tried to prove that this assumption was wrong. And then Lewis was at Fort Wagner when the assault occurred and he was severely injured. And Charles, however, got so sick in training that he never got to combat, which was very, very frustrating to him. But when the 54th Massachusetts marched through Boston to the waiting ships, it was very powerful symbol of black empowerment and a love of country. And I think it, and many people still can accept that. And I don't say this with any sense of arrogance, that probably one of the most idealistic groups in this country about America are black Americans in their resilience and their perseverance. They have demonstrated, we have demonstrated that this country is worth fighting for, sacrificing for. And I think there's still that belief. But we are also a reminder. I think this is where some of the problems with others come. We are a reminder of the failure of the achievement of these ideals.

[Don Wildman]

It's very complex.

[Sidney Morrison]

So there's a. In our history, when we look away from black Americans, we, you know, make them invisible so they don't remind us of the contradictions, the hypocrisies and the failures in our history.

[Don Wildman]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

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[Don Wildman]

Let'S talk about Douglas's relationship with Lincoln. He first meets him in 1863. Is this before or after the proclamation?

[Sidney Morrison]

This is after and Lincoln issued a preliminary proclamation in the hopes that by doing so the four states that the four states city states that had not seceded would join the union. And so many people, including myself early on didn't realize that the emancipation Proclamation was not a universal Emancipation Proclamation. It was only. Only proclamation for states in rebellion. And he wanted to use that as a kind of. As a threat. And so that the south would say, we have all these emancipated slaves waging against us. And he also. So the dread did not work. And so By January of 1863, the emancipation was released. And he was in Boston at the time. And like many, he celebrated the emancipation's release because some people felt that he would maybe back down, that he would redo it. And he himself historically says that when he was about to sign it. This changes everything. However, the patterns of discrimination still prevailed, that even soldiers who were enlisting were not being paid equally and being discriminated against, as well as the South. When they had black prisoners of war, they were executing them. And so there was a real sense that something had to be done. So without an invitation, Douglass went to Washington to see the President, showed up at the White House. And when word got to Lincoln that Douglass was there, Douglass was immediately invited in, really upsetting all the other people who were waiting for hours, all, you know, white men waiting for hours. And he took the bypass. They're all bypassed. So that was infuriating. But that was a measure of Frederick Douglass prestige and renown.

[Don Wildman]

So that first meeting is about getting that better pay and conditions for those black soldiers, right?

[Sidney Morrison]

That's right. And. But before the interesting thing, before your next question, before he saw Lincoln, he went to see a couple other officials because he didn't go blindly. He did let it be known that he was coming to Washington with the Postmaster General, who was from Maryland. And they arranged for a meeting prior to Lincoln with the Secretary of War and Edwin Stanton. He sees Stanton and he talks to Stanton about the issues with them. And Stanton says, if Lincoln says it's okay, then I will make sure that not only pay is equal, but that I will commission you and others to be officers in the military. And he got Stanton to write this. And so by the time he got to the White House, he had this document that showed that he had met several key figures in the government. And even Lincoln signed on document, the same document saying that Douglass was a patriot and should be recognized as a patriot. But Lincoln basically committed to talking with Douglass about how he could help in enlisting more soldiers. And. And Douglass was very excited to be part of this process. So he said, I want you to go to the South. Stanton was suggesting that he be commissioned, go into the south and recruit.

[Don Wildman]

Did that happen?

[Sidney Morrison]

He did go on a mission. To recruit. So he went all over the globe country recruiting black soldiers. But he expected this commission, if he was going to go south, he needed the protection of the federal government with this commission. And also because of his. He was being. He's Frederick Douglass, of course. Of course he should be a commissioned officer. And that commission never came.

[Don Wildman]

I see.

[Sidney Morrison]

Yeah.

[Don Wildman]

The conversations you're talking about, there were three meetings, once in 63 and then in 64 to discuss, as you're saying, one of the overarching themes here is what's going to happen if the Union loses. You know, that's the big problem here, obviously. And. And Lincoln seeks out that advice from Douglas.

[Sidney Morrison]

Yeah. Well, by 1864, the union was losing the war, and Lincoln was afraid that he was not going to be reelected. But Lincoln, in November of 1864, was reelected and things had begun to change. So when he went. But the second meeting, Douglass was invited by Lincoln. This time he was the President of the United States had asked him to come for his advice. And that's when he talked about several of the things that he was thinking about. One, whether or not black people should leave the country, whether or not Douglass could continue his work to get the word out that the emancipation had happened. Because the communication channels were very poor, of course, back then. No Internet, you know, so many of the beneficiaries of the emancipation were not aware of it. So he wanted Douglas the ghost out to spread the word and also to come up with a plan how the word could be spread. And so he was very impressed by Lincoln, who had aged considerably by this time. You know, he lost his son. Many, many thousands and thousands of Americans were dying. And Lincoln wasn't even sure that he was going to be reelected. So he was very concerned about Reconstruction and what was going to happen to black people. And history proved that he was right about that because his life was threatened all the time. And so he had a real sense of the fragility of life. And so Douglass was very touched by Lincoln's humility and sense of mission about the destiny of America.

[Don Wildman]

So how much is Frederick Douglass involved in the discussions about re engineering American society with the upcoming amendments that are going to be required, you know, reminding people that at this point, the south is not part of the discussion in the Congress. These are, you know, this is how this gets done. But it doesn't happen until after the war that the south starts, you know, reentering the discussions. So during this time, I'm sure I'm thinking of Charles Sumter, all these guys who were in the U.S. congress. Was Douglas, was he part of those discussions? Was he talking to these guys?

[Sidney Morrison]

Charles Sumner was a very close friend of his and Sumner was part of the Radical Republican Party, but he was not a part of the discussions because Thaddeus Stevens, who was ahead of the Radical Republicans, were afraid that Douglas's prominence would exacerbate opposition to the Reconstruction plans. In fact, there was a meeting that was going to be held after the war. Lincoln was already dead. And the Democratic Party in New York, in the Rochester area wanted to send Douglas and they did not want Douglas to come. Thaddeus Stevens and others did not want him to come because they thought that he would be too controversial, visible. And so he went to that meeting and he did. And it created credit a stir because it was in Philadelphia and some of the people didn't even want to talk with him. He was even asked on the train by a high ranking politician, please, you know, just don't go, don't come, stay away from the meeting. But he went anyway. But his input was not appreciated directly. So he spent most of his time advocating for these ideas in the press. Because by then Lincoln was dead and Andrew Johnson was openly hostile to the Reconstruction plans of Lincoln. Which is why Link Douglas went to see President Johnson to press his case. And that meeting is famously recorded because Johnson was so sure that he was going to prove that the delegation of black men, including Douglass, were going to be put in their place. So he asked a stenographer to be there to write down everything that everyone said. And to the President's shock and even to the mortification of his colleagues, he got into an argument with Andrew Johnson, respectfully, but he got into an argument. But he was not part of the ongoing unfolding of the amendments. He supported them, but he was not directly there, but openly advocated for them. And especially when it became clear that Johnson was opposed to particularly the 14th amendment, which granted citizenship. But I think by then he saw that with Lincoln's death, which by the way was tragic in a number of ways. But the third time he saw Lincoln was at the inauguration. And the address clearly states that slavery was the cause of the war and that the war and the result and the tragic deaths of Al Wasa was actually the consequence of this commitment to slavery from the very beginning. So it's a very powerful statement that this was all about slavery and we have to undo what we have done. And Douglass was so impressed that he went to see Lincoln at the reception that evening and it was open to the public. But when he arrived, the soldiers, operating on the presumption that black people were inferior and had no business there, wouldn't let him in. But somehow someone else saw that this was happening and got word to Lincoln. And Lincoln ordered the soldiers to let Douglas in. And when he got up to Lincoln, Douglass heard the President say, here's my friend Frederick Douglass coming. When he came, he said, Mr. Douglass, what did you think about my speech? And that's when he said. He said, sir, it was a noble effort, but there was a long line of people. And that was the last time he saw Lincoln. Lincoln, before he died, he invited Frederick to have tea with him. And Douglass had a prior commitment. And he never canceled engagements with the public. Never. And so he expressed his regret to the officer who came with the invitation. Shocking this officer. You're declining an invitation from the President of the United States. He says, but I have a commitment to give a speech. And a few days later, Lincoln was dead. So he really regretted that.

[Don Wildman]

What is Frederick Douglass view and participation in the downfall of Reconstruction? I'm skipping 10 years of this man's life at this moment, but let's just go to that point. 1877, the Hayes administration is coming in, and all of what we've discussed in other episodes is taking place. The compromises that eventually lead to the destruction of the collapse of Reconstruction. What's Douglass's view of that?

[Sidney Morrison]

Well, because he still believed in the power of constitutional government, he saw political engagement as crucial to holding the American government and political officials to account. So he was very much committed again to the political process because he could see what political will did with the radical Reconstruction movement and also with the advocacy of a new president, Ulysses S. Grant, who was a war hero who believed in the 14th Amendment and the right and the right of citizens to not be terrorized. So he was committed to having soldiers in the south protecting citizens who were now getting elected and on city councils and all the rest, which, of course, was infuriating to former Confederates. But so Douglas became very committed to Grant and again to political engagement.

[Don Wildman]

Right. So much of the construction era had to confirm his greatest dreams for this country.

[Sidney Morrison]

People were getting elected, and people, you know, he was there when one of these men was elected as a senator. And so the real awesome weight of change was very well known and also very well changed, strongly felt by him. But the mage. But right then, there was something else that was taking place that I explore because he was so committed to doing the work of advocacy. He thought by then, because he was Frederick Douglass that he deserved recognition from the Republican Party and the president. So he expected some kind of position in the Grant administration. And that position never came. And I think for the obvious reasons, he was too famous. And at the same time he was known to be honest in his declaration what was right and what wasn't. But also so when he became the president of the Freedmen's bank, this was an honorific position. He knew nothing about finance, but unfortunately the bank was already going under and he was impressed by the prestige that came with the job. And he wanted black people to be recognized for their accomplishments in a number of jobs and things like this. And yet ambition became a part of this period. And he kept on hoping and waiting for the, you know, for to get a position. And it never came from Grant.

[Don Wildman]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

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[Don Wildman]

He was such a communicator. His insights were so perceptive. Did he not almost narrate this undoing? I mean in his speeches and writings? Did he not see what was happening and explain it to the American people.

[Sidney Morrison]

This is the dilemma, because his ambition got in the way and his ambition got him to be not as forcibly direct publicly about what was going on. Especially when Grant administration got immersed in scandal after scandal after scandal. He was relatively silent because again, he did not want to antagonize Grant and also because his very close friend Charles Sumner was very open. Now the person who was really unremittedly critical about all of this was Charles Sumner. And he was so critical he was ready to start another, a third party. And Douglass was convinced that this would be disastrous. So their friendship was severely damaged by this conflict. But by the end of Grant's second administration, Douglas was so convinced that the Democratic Party was so opposed that he really worked hard to get Republicans elected.

[Don Wildman]

But in doing so, they had to compromise. That's right, that's Rutherford Hayes, because Tilden.

[Sidney Morrison]

Won the election, but there was questionable electors involved.

[Don Wildman]

The closest election of all time. And so they have to broker this deal.

[Sidney Morrison]

That's right. And Tilden lost and Republican went into the White House and that was Rutherford Hayes. So as far as Douglas was concerned, his advocacy for Republicans again deserved some kind of recognition. And he got it. Hayes. But many people criticized him because Hayes was instrumental with the ending of Reconstruction.

[Don Wildman]

Of course, yes. But this is a man who's in his 60s at this point, which is quite a bit older in those days. I mean, these famous pictures of his white hair and you know, he's, he's at that sort of elder statesman point of life. He's also, I want to point out, 1878, he's able to purchase a 20 room mansion called Cedar Hill that sits on a nine acre estate which he expands to 15 acres in the Anacosta neighborhood of D.C. you can still go there and visit that house. I mean, he has accomplished a great deal in life, this man.

[Sidney Morrison]

Yes.

[Don Wildman]

This incredible adversity all the way to where he is today. It's impossible to understand the psychology behind this. You have attempted to because you've written this book about it and imagined the dynamics involved, but it's just today it's impossible for us to understand how dramatic these moments really were and what he needed to protect at this point in his life.

[Sidney Morrison]

Yes. And because he had reached a status of one of the iconic leaders of the black community, symbolized in this magnificent house on Cedar Hill overlooking the Capitol, that it was a testament to the journey from where he came. And so by the time he had this home, he saw it as symbolically powerful enough and the job that came with it that he would Go back to Maryland and go back to the Eastern Shore and meet with his former enslaver man who sold him through the interventions of the English abolitionists and who was still alive. And so he went there. He not only went there a year later, he returned to the Eastern Shore to give a talk. And the very town where he was arrested and trying to escape and visited the White House Plantation and was received by the Lloyds there, the descendants of the Lloyds. The symbolism just. I still get chills. I know that this man who was a child enslaved, you know, came back. And I think there was a part of his character. You know, he's a complicated man. It was not only. It was proof that he rose, but that black people rose, but he also. There was a part of pride. See what I accomplished? You said no, and I did it anyway.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, right. But it wasn't an ugly arrogance.

[Sidney Morrison]

No, no, no, it certainly was not with this host, because they were very gracious. They were impressed. I mean, now then, Douglass is the most famous black man in the entire world, you know, and he looked dignified. He was very. And so he saw the symbolic significance of it. And I think still it represents how the desire to be free and desire to be educated. He never went to school, but he educated himself. And he. And his life at Cedar Hill is a reflection of that achievement to the point that when Page lost the election, when he was not renominated and James Garfield won the election, Garfield Douglas was there at his inauguration, the first black person of official significance at the inauguration. And James Garfield invited him to the White House and asked him to consider of becoming a ambassador to a country that was not black because he wanted the symbolic significance of Douglass's personage in that role. But at the very same time, Don, he was losing influence in movement for black people because the younger people see him as too compromising, too agreeable, too willing to cater to power and prestige.

[Don Wildman]

Well, he lives a long life. I just want to note a few more of his accomplishments. Resident and Consul General to the Republic of Haiti, essentially an ambassador there, which is also a controversial story as well. He resigns in 1891 for many different reasons. He's a board of trustees member of Howard University from 1871-95. I mean, how incredible statement on his accomplishments there to have these black colleges.

[Sidney Morrison]

My grandfather went to medical school there, so that was quite an achievement in and of itself in the turn of the century.

[Don Wildman]

You know, I'm tempted to try to wax poetic, but I'm going to leave it to you. Sidney, give us some final words on this extraordinary man's life and your feelings about its contribution to the American story.

[Sidney Morrison]

And that is what it is, an American story. And for me, I am on a mission to spread the word that this was a great American who never gave up his hope and belief in the American, American possibility. He was disappointed. And by the 1890s, he expressed that disappointment in a speech that really reflected his powerful assessment of what was going on by then. Wholesale abandonment of Reconstruction, the lynching of thousands of Americans, with many Americans turning away from what was going on. That's a Southern problem. And he at some point felt that the lessons of the hour was that speech. And it's a very grim statement about the current moment. But he also said in that speech that although it's disappointing, that he still believed in the possibilities of America. And so in the end, it is that hope that he sustained throughout a very long and sometimes difficult life that inspired me that if Douglass, of all people, could keep faith in America, why can't we all? And not only that, he is a representative of the passion of educating himself to become this eloquent writer and speaker and represents the finest fruits of self education and of learning and memorizing and talking with and writing with such brilliance. I think he was a gifted man who made the most of the opportunities. And he responded to the help of others, white and black, to become himself. No one is a self made man. He gave in his famous speech. Self made man. He says, no one is a self made man. We are the product of. Of the lives of others. And so I wrote the book to demonstrate, number one, this American story of achievement, but also of possibility. So I'm hoping that he comes alive as someone who's a source of inspiration. And if nothing else, I hope people go back to his words because that's what he ultimately believed in. The power of language to transform ourselves and the world. And that's what I believed and still do. That's why I'm a writer and that's why he wrote. And I hope people will be inspired by this man's example and by the words.

[Don Wildman]

Well, it's heartening to see how his legend is growing and has been burnished well by all the storytelling done, including your book, which I will plug once more. Sidney Morrison is the author of Frederick Douglass A Novel. It's a historical novel looking at Douglas's life and events. Sidney is a former history teacher and school principal, also a Vietnam vet, which is another episode we're going to do about Sidney's time in Vietnam serving this country very much in the tradition of a Frederick Douglass, I suppose. Thank you so much, Sidney. We'll talk to you again soon.

[Sidney Morrison]

My pleasure.

[Don Wildman]

Hey, thanks for listening to American History hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American History hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support.

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