American History Hit: "Frenemies: Russia & the USA, a History"

Host: Don Wildman
Guest: Vladislav Zubok, Professor of International History at the London School of Economics and Author of The Fall of the Soviet Union
Release Date: June 23, 2025

1. Introduction and Historical Context

In this episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves into the complex and often adversarial relationship between the United States and Russia. The discussion sets the stage by highlighting the long-standing geopolitical tensions that have defined interactions between the two nations, from the era of the Russian Empire to the modern Russian Federation.

Don Wildman [04:03]: "The United States of America and Russia have never had a friendly relationship. It has always been one dictated by strategic concerns, oscillating for centuries between pragmatism and open hostility."

2. Early Relations: Russian Empire and Early America

The conversation begins by exploring the early interactions between the nascent United States and the Russian Empire. Despite differing governance systems—constitutional republicanism versus absolute monarchy—there were instances of mutual support, especially when Russian interests aligned against common adversaries like Great Britain.

Vladislav Zubok [08:49]: "Russia as a state favored America's independence and looked at it as a potential ally and of course against the British Empire."

3. The Impact of the American Civil War

The American Civil War serves as a significant point in US-Russia relations. Russia supported the Union, viewing the American conflict through its own lens of liberating serfs, paralleling Lincoln's anti-slavery stance. This mutual sympathy temporarily strengthened ties between the two nations.

Vladislav Zubok [10:28]: "The Russian Tsar... viewed the United States as a good counterpoint to the power of the British Empire."

4. Expansion to the Far East: Sale of Alaska

Don and Vlad discuss the strategic importance of Alaska, its colonization by Russia, and eventual sale to the United States. This move was pragmatic for Russia, aiming to avoid conflict and foster a positive relationship with the U.S., which lasted into the early 20th century.

Vladislav Zubok [14:44]: "The Russian tsar had the common sense to sell Alaska... to avoid a conflict between the two nations."

5. The Russian Revolution and its Aftermath

The 1917 Russian Revolution marks a pivotal shift in relations. Initially, there was American enchantment and support for Russia's move towards democracy. However, the rise of Lenin and the Bolsheviks led to disappointment and suspicion in the U.S., setting the stage for future antagonism.

Vladislav Zubok [18:43]: "Americans felt deeply cheated" when the Bolsheviks seized power, leading to the First Red Scare fueled by widespread fear of communism.

6. The Rise of the Cold War

The discussion transitions to the Cold War era, emphasizing ideological differences and mutual distrust. Vlad highlights the dualism in American attitudes—struggling between pragmatic approaches and a crusading mentality to spread democracy and counter communism.

Vladislav Zubok [36:29]: "American ideology played a vastly greater role in the origins of the Cold War than so-called international communism."

7. The Cuban Missile Crisis: A Pivotal Moment

A detailed analysis of the Cuban Missile Crisis underscores the height of Cold War tensions. Vlad explains the Soviet motivations, Khrushchev's impatience, and the catastrophic potential of nuclear confrontation. This event cemented the Cold War mindset of mutual assured destruction.

Vladislav Zubok [43:39]: "The Cuban Missile Crisis made people think differently about the problem of nuclear annihilation."

8. Detente to Reagan: Fluctuating Relations

The episode explores the period of détente and subsequent escalation under President Reagan. Vlad discusses how efforts at peaceful coexistence were undermined by persistent American dualism and ideological crusades, despite recognition of shared nuclear threats.

Vladislav Zubok [40:08]: "The ideology of us being exceptionally responsible for the future of the world made the Cold War inevitable."

9. The Fall of the Soviet Union and Its Impact

The fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 are examined from both American and Russian perspectives. While Americans viewed these events as the culmination of their mission to liberate Russia, Russians experienced a period of chaos and uncertainty, leading to a divergence in perceptions.

Don Wildman [54:28]: "The Berlin Wall falls in 1989... Americans were just uncoiled with relief."

Vladislav Zubok [55:18]: "Millions of people in the Soviet Union at the time were awakened by Gorbachev's reforms."

10. Modern Russia and Future Outlook

Concluding the episode, Don and Vlad reflect on post-Soviet Russia under Vladimir Putin, comparing it to Weimar Germany and discussing the challenges of moving towards a stable democracy. Vlad emphasizes the diminishing power of modern Russia compared to historical perceptions and contrasts it with China's rise as a dominant global power.

Vladislav Zubok [60:21]: "Putin's Russia... gradually began to move in a salami way to concentrate wealth and power in his hands."

Vladislav Zubok [67:56]: "Today’s Russia... is even weaker and getting weaker in a sense, despite all the bombast and propaganda."

He also touches upon the enduring duality in American policy towards Russia, balancing pragmatic diplomacy with ongoing ideological opposition.

Vladislav Zubok [68:16]: "Pragmatic policy towards Russia will continue to be complicated by America's crusading identity."

Conclusion

The episode provides a comprehensive overview of the tumultuous and multifaceted history between the United States and Russia. Through insightful dialogue, Don Wildman and Vladislav Zubok illuminate how historical events, cultural perceptions, and ideological battles have shaped and continue to influence the relationship between these two global powers.

Vladislav Zubok [68:37]: "Thank you so much for indulging. I appreciate it."

Don Wildman [68:43]: "Thanks for listening to American History Hit."

Note: This summary excludes advertisement segments and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions between Don Wildman and Vladislav Zubok.