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- [00:00]
Don Wildman
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- [00:32]
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- [01:38]
Don Wildman
It is 1858 in the Sonoran Desert of northern Mexico. Under a dome of stars, a 29 year old Apache warrior named Galliathele stands before a raging fire as it consumes his family's final belongings, his wife's clothes, his mother's weavings, his children's toys. Earlier in the day, while Goyathele was away trading with another tribe, Mexican soldiers had attacked the encampment, killing every man, woman and child they could find. Now Goyatole is alone, stunned in his loss. As he watches the flames, a rage rises within him. If he cannot have his family back, he will chase down and punish the men who've taken them away. Over time his story spreads in rebellions against Mexican forces and later Americans. He stirs fear and trepidation working under a name he did not choose. His tale builds and becomes legend. A figure of supreme courage and cunning, a vengeful force in the wilderness. He is Geronimo. Our guest today is Dr. Veronica Tiller, a Hikaria Apache writer of Native American History, editor and publisher of the award winning economic reference guide Tiller's Guide to Indian Country. I'm Don Wildwin and this is American History. Hit. Greetings Dr. Killer Veronica, thank you for joining us on American History. It's so nice to have you?
- [03:22]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Well, thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this interesting subject on Geronimo.
- [03:29]
Don Wildman
Before we discuss Geronimo and his campaigns, I want to first understand the Apache nation, because Apache is such a famous name, but most of us are applying it specifically when it actually it umbrellas several distinct groups with their own territories and leaders and ways of life. What broadly defines Apache for you?
- [03:48]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
All the Indian tribes of Arizona, New Mexico and Oklahoma right now are where the Apaches live. That has been their aboriginal territory since the arrival of Coronado in 1540.
- [04:02]
Don Wildman
In the Southwest, the lifestyle, traditional lifestyle of Apache was different from, say, the Pueblo peoples, who had a much more settled life. Apache were known as a migrating nation, is that right?
- [04:16]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Well, let's see. I think that kind of points out the first stereotype of Apache, that they were migrating. In other words, they moved from place to place, but they didn't move from place to place because they didn't know where they were going or they had. They followed the game, they had, they went by the seasons. They knew their land, which was one of the reasons Geronimo became famous was because he knew every inch of his land and used it to his benefit.
- [04:44]
Don Wildman
Yeah, I mean, if there's ever been a Native people more stereotyped, I think it would be the Apaches. From so much of movies and so forth, that people have seen a very sophisticated, unique society, matrilineal. What does that mean?
- [04:57]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
That means that the women are the boss. No, it means that your descendancy comes through the female line.
- [05:05]
Don Wildman
Right, exactly. The Apache nations we talk of, and these are many different tribes, as you say, existed for hundreds of years. Of course, but we'll come into this story after the Spanish arrival, late 1500s, early 1600s, the 17th century conflicts begin as Spanish settlers and missionaries push into Apache territories, attempting to colonize. What we saw happen in, in California is going to be followed here. The missionary, the missions are built and they move across that period. The pattern is, of course, white men, consistently dishonest, series of treaties with the US that are broken. Apaches will be very sensitive to this. Into this world comes someone named Go Athelectric. The pronunciation of his name is up in question. I'm doing the best I can. It translates into one who yawns. Right.
- [05:55]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
That is the interpretation, or that's what's been offered by the, even the Apaches. That that is in fact the translation for his name, which was given to him as a very young, young boy.
- [06:07]
Don Wildman
He is born June 16, 1829, near the Gila river in New Mexico still running there all the way across the state. He later becomes known as Geronimo. How so? What happens to his name or what is that phenomenon? We should probably address that up front.
- [06:24]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Well, it's a Spanish name. And one interpretation or one thing I have heard about the name Geronimo is that they were so afraid of him that they prayed to their saint, Saint Jerome. And then from there they just changed that to Geronimo. And that's what they called him.
- [06:42]
Don Wildman
In all the reading I did for this Veronica, I did not read that. But I like that explanation best of all. Praying to St. Jerome. He was such a legend in his time as we will find out. Why Geronimo then Goyathele was a Chiricahua Apache, one of those several tribes we referred to. But even that is a term inclusive of several groups. He is part of the Chiricahua Apache. Again, a term that is inclusive of other bands from that southeast. This whole part is what is what becomes the state of Arizona is what he is. Southeast Arizona. He marries a woman named Alope. Again we refer to matrilineal society. She would be in charge of this house, wouldn't she?
- [07:26]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yes. That would imply many things, including moving to his wife's ban. Because when catching men married, they moved to the woman's household and lives with their relatives. Yes.
- [07:41]
Don Wildman
Goethely grows to become a natural born leader. He is a powerful warrior and a shaman, a medicine man. He was said to possess psychic abilities and could see into the future. Was this typical of those sorts? Because we're not talking about him becoming a chief, right?
- [07:57]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yeah. A leader. Probably be more like it. I think the concept of chief is more a white man's term.
- [08:02]
Don Wildman
Oh, interesting.
- [08:03]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
They always wanted to put the Indians people into their way of thinking. In other words, we had to have one chief and.
- [08:11]
Don Wildman
Right.
- [08:12]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
You know, and they were more like leaders of bands and families that Geronimo was the leader of. And he was a leader because of his abilities not only to speak, but to become a fierce warrior and also to care for his family and to care for his people. And he did all of those things, but he was never considered a chief. And that applies to all the rest of the Indian leaders. All of them from Geronimo to Sitting Bull to Crazy Horse to any of them. There was never just one chief that was oversaw everything.
- [08:50]
Don Wildman
Exactly.
- [08:51]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
They worked together in bands and each band had their own leaders. And those leaders came together and sometimes they appointed someone. But there was no one leader. There was no one chief at all times.
- [09:03]
Don Wildman
Interesting. The story we're about to get into is really against a backdrop of shifting power struggles, really, because of the geography of where they are. They're so close to what was Spanish North America, of course, and then that becomes Mexico in 1821. Not long after, several decades later, the Americans come in the midst of this. These shifting plot lines really are the Apache, these many, many tribes in this whole vast territory of southeastern America. That's the pressure they're really dealing with, is kind of figuring out who is really, you know, trying to push into these. Their traditional lands, into their territories, and how to deal with them. That's Geronimo's real story, is. Is his ability to figure these people out and react accordingly.
- [09:54]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Right. Well, you know, the story of Geronimo is so full of not only stereotypes, but the facts are quite complex and interrelated, and he's in the midst of all of that. Like, for example, with the Spanish people, you know, when history is being told, we leave out the Spanish and Mexican period, and then we act like history started when the Americans came in 1846. I mean, they came earlier in groups, but that's when everything seems to start in the history books. But the Apaches have had already had three centuries of contact with the Hispanic people under Spain and Mexico before the Americans arrived.
- [10:39]
Don Wildman
Right.
- [10:39]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
So a lot of the patterns of settlement had an influence on them. Using the doctrine of discovery, the Spaniards in Mexico claimed and established sovereignty over the Indians and their lands. They set up a system of government, had presidios, and land grants were issued to the Spanish people, mainly those that were related to the royals of Spain and Mexico. And so they already had a system of dealing with the Apaches. And the Apaches allowed them to be there, mainly because there was just a handful of them. And in this regard, the Apaches saw the Spanish as the nomads. In other words, they're always referring to Apaches of their nomadic. They go from place to place. Well, as far as the Apaches were concerned, it was the Spanish who were nomadics. They didn't know where they were going. They settled here and hither and thither. Eventually, they settled in the best places, where the Apaches had their homes as well. They selected places along the rivers and the green valleys and near the buffalo. And so they were the nomads. But the Apaches allowed them. And the land in the Southwest is so huge that a handful of people didn't seem to be a threat. It wasn't until much later that when they started establishing more Settlements that the Apaches began to think, these guys are going to be a threat to us pretty soon. They're killing our game and they're changing our way of life. But one of the positive aspect of that relationship was based on the bringing of the horse. Of course, the Apaches feel like that the Great Spirit had sent him the horse. It was just the Mexicans and the Spaniards who brought the horse. They were the vessel by which we obtained the horse. But they didn't bring it in the sense that it was something new to us. But anyway, that was a different story.
- [12:42]
Don Wildman
Yeah, but we did an episode a long time ago, early in this series, we did an episode about the origin of the horse in North America. In fact, it had previously been in prehistoric times. There it had been, you know, because of movement and so forth, of. There are many reasons. But the European horse is actually the descendant of the North American horse, which makes total sense when you consider that native tribes consider the horse naturally born to them. It's fascinating. But another story, Geronimo, as I say, born in 1829, comes into the world as the Mexicans who have gained their independence from Spain in 1821, are that opposing force who are. Are moving up and trying to settle into these northern lands. That's who he's resisting when he first becomes a young man. A terrible thing happens to him in. In 1858 and to his family. Obviously. The Spanish have been gone since 1821, as I say. And now it's the Mexico moving in. 400 Mexican soldiers raid an Apache camp in northern New Mexico and kill Geronimo's wife, three children and mother. More than a hundred of his fellow Apache massacred. This is the beginning of really Geronimo's campaign, isn't it?
- [13:56]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yes, it is. He vowed to take vengeance against the Mexicans and he hated them. And he was more than happy to raid them and to kill them to take revenge. And that's true in any of the wars that the Apaches have. If they were fighting the Comanches or the Navajos or anybody else. That was the whole idea, to protect your family, to take vengeance when it was an eye for an eye, right?
- [14:24]
Don Wildman
Looking simply at it, it's a campaign of revenge. The Apache resistance that Geronimo will lead. Then comes, as I, as I mentioned before, the U.S. mexican War, which is 1846-48. And for the Apache, the struggle against the Mexicans is now transferred to the Americans. Not right away. They think they're going to get along with them, but the same Issues persist and become even wider in SC conditions on the reservations. When does a reservation, the idea of reservation come into play in this story?
- [14:53]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yeah, they have a policy of concentration that is concentrating Indians onto Indian reservations. And they started moving around the populations to fit that scheme. And Geronimo, of course, didn't like the idea of having to move out of his homelands, which was in. Not only in Arizona, but in the southwestern part of New Mexico, what is today New Mexico territory. And the government began to establish small reservations, Warm Springs and Chiricahua in New Mexico. And of course, the patches didn't want to stay on the reservation. It didn't make any sense. That's not how they made a living. They needed the entire aboriginal territory to support them.
- [15:38]
Don Wildman
And those reservations are inevitably going to be on poor land. Meager rations are distributed by Indian agents. There's a prevalence of disease. I mean, no good. And so naturally, there's pushback. And the likes of Geronimo are central to that resistance. And that idea of, you can't put us on this land. Traditional foods are unavailable. Food is limited to what the US army allows, and this leads to people trying to escape the reservations and rebel. And Geronimo is very good at breaking out. So after this short break, we'll be back to talk about the campaign that evolves in which Geronimo leads all across the Southwest. This episode brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts. Ah, spring. Trees blossoming, flowers blooming, not having to defrost your fingers and toes when you get inside. Oh, yeah, and spring break. Freedom. Warmer climbs and memories just waiting to be made. And at Best Western, spring break isn't just what it used to be. It's better this spring. Stay three nights and get a $50 Best Western gift card. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions.
- [17:04]
Dan Snow
If you love a good story, why aren't you listening to Dan Snow's History Hit Podcast? It's a show where we tell you every amazing, crazy and important thing that's ever happened in human history. From the perilous voyages of the first Polynesians, the discoveries of Captain Cook, the deadly Viking raids on Britain and Ireland, the rise and fall of the great English kings and queens. We'll tell you who how Waterloo was won, the Alamo was lost, and all the history in between. So make sure you check it out. Dan Snow's History Hit for the best true stories ever told. Wherever you get your podcasts,
- [17:48]
Don Wildman
We're back we're discussing Geronimo's resistance with Dr. Veronica Tiller. Veronica, Geronimo is a hard man to keep down. He insists on breaking out and going rogue. Why is it so important for authorities to keep him on the reservation? What's so bad about letting these people go back to their normal way of life?
- [18:08]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Well, they're supposed to be Indians that say, yes, sir, yes, sir, and, you know, we'll go and we'll starve and we'll fight over the rations and the agents can take what they want and we'll just stand by. He didn't like that way of life, and he knew that when they send him to the San Carlos reservation that he was willing to give the reservation a chance. But what happened was there was too much corruption at the agency. There was not enough food. And besides, many of the San Carlos bands of Apaches did not like him and there was a lot of conflict. So Chiricahua had their own land, which they, which they loved and which is where they wanted to be. But in terms of the reservations, that's where the food was, because the people were confined to that, to the reservations, and there were troops around them that keeping them there. And not only that, but many of the Indian Apache bands were willing, could give the reservation a chance. So because of their willingness was one reason the reservation system was successful, because the Apaches knew that there were too many white people taking over the best of lands and they had a military to enforce what they wanted. And of course, Geronimo, Geronimo did not agree with that. And he was a cunning man and he knew military strategy. He knew the land, he knew how to escape. And, you know, the soldiers only went by the trails and the roads, and they didn't know the land like he did.
- [19:46]
Don Wildman
It's an old story, white immigrants moving into lands that don't belong to them and then demanding federal intervention, military intervention from the government, and the government provides it in an increasing basis. So over and over again, Geronimo's people are. And he are put onto these reservations. And over and over again he breaks out. August 1878, September 1881, May 1885. He then takes refuge in the land which he knows so well and leads raids for supplies, weapons and food. This is the period where we kind of begin to understand, you know, the stereotype that's been drawn from this. But this is a lifestyle and a. And a fighting style that has been forced upon them, correct?
- [20:30]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yes, that is correct. And I think just to back up a little bit here, it Ties back to the Mexican period is that the Apaches hated the Mexicans and the Mexicans hated them. And when the war, the Mexican War began between the United States and Mexico, the Apaches were happy that the United States was fighting the Mexicans. And they even thought that maybe they could help the Americans against the Mexicans. And at some point, they did offer help, and they were on the American side and were happy about that and made concessions based on that. But then later on, they found out that the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo prevented them from going into Mexico. And they said that some of the atrocities that were made against the Mexicans, that the Americans would have to be paid. In other words, they sided with the Mexicans, saying that the Apaches couldn't go down there. And that's what started some of the animosities between the United States and Mexico. I mean, the Apaches and up to that point, they had allowed. And after that, they let the boundary commission come in to do. The boundary that Gadsden purchased was the Gadsden area was purchased. And Apaches even signed a treaty with the American government in 1852, which did not involve the taking of any land, but it allowed transport or access to the roads across Apache land at that time.
- [22:03]
Don Wildman
Yeah, I mean, these are patterns that have been established prior to this back east with other native peoples and then certainly in the northern west with the Sioux tribes and all those kinds of things. The typical situation is creating these understandings and these treaties that as settlers come in and demands are made, those treaties no longer work for the white man. And so those are broken and promises are broken as well. But what I found so fascinating about this whole subject matter is the. The reverse engineering of the stereotype. And if there is ever a stereotype, it's of that Apache on his horse with the rifle in the air. That picture that has been, you know, Frederick Remington all over the place. And yet that is based on the raids that is most famous from Geronimo. They were very good at what they did in those raids. But that raiding lifestyle, that. That war style comes from the necessity to not go back to the reservation, to survive out on the lands that were theirs before those.
- [23:05]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Well, the Apaches never gave up owning their land. In other words, they never said, here, you can take this. You can come on our land and take it. They said, no, not only no, but hell no. You can't be coming onto our land and taking it. We're going to defend it and we're going to fight, and we're going to fight. As best we can. And that includes raiding. The thing that I attribute to Geronimo is that he understood the white man. He understood their language of violence. He understood that there's only one way to deal with the white people and that was through violence and that was through raiding. That was preventing them from settling, that was preventing them in every way possible. So they were defending their land. They weren't just being mean to these poor little, well intended white people coming onto their land.
- [23:51]
Don Wildman
Let's talk about one of those raids. How should we imagine this happened? They would have a base camp in the mountains. Right. And work from there.
- [23:57]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
That would be one way. Yeah. Like I said, they knew the land, so they knew where to get in touch. I mean, where to attack the settlers and the soldiers and the tradesmen and anybody that was coming through their lands. Like, for example, the gold rush. Gold was discovered in California a few days after the signing of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. So the volume of settlers increase across that. That area. They were everywhere and followed by the soldiers protecting them.
- [24:28]
Don Wildman
Yes. And that also becomes silver. In the Southwest, a great deal of silver is found. Lots of reasons.
- [24:33]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
The copper mines there at Santa arita.
- [24:36]
Don Wildman
Exactly. In 1883, Mexico even reluctantly allowed us access to their territory to hunt down Geronimo and other Apache groups because they were moving, you know, cross border a lot. That border didn't exist for them. This was just their lands. The idea was that the military wanted to always hunt them down and try to kill Apache bands who had left the reservations. That was kind of the routine, wasn't it?
- [25:01]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yes, that was the routine. They had approximately 5,000 military personnel chasing after Geronimo's band, which consisted of less than about 50 people, including women and children.
- [25:15]
Don Wildman
Yeah, exactly. And he was traveling with all of those people, wasn't he?
- [25:18]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
That's right.
- [25:19]
Don Wildman
The timing of this story, Veronica, is so interesting to me because we're kind of late. These are late days in the struggle against this white encroachment. I mean, it's sort of the same as the Sioux up there, but that's more 1870s. So the Apaches, how did they hold out so long? How much do they understand at this point what's been happening elsewhere on the continent?
- [25:38]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Well, you have to understand how big the Southwest really is. Yeah, but you know, the Southwest is huge and the land is vast and they covered a lot of territory and the Apaches knew the land. I think that's very important to understand that they lived there for centuries. That's where the Great Spirit put them. They considered the rivers and the mountains sacred to them and they lived there and they knew the land and therefore they, they were going to protect it as well.
- [26:09]
Don Wildman
But were they aware of what had happened to other peoples? The Cherokee, the, you know, the Trail of Tears and all that been happening earlier in the century? Had all that been been learned about by that time?
- [26:22]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Oh, yeah, there was a great communication between the Indian tribes and like, I think that's not known in the history and literature of Native Americans is that there was contact between them. They knew what was going on. And as a matter of fact, that was one of the reasons they did what they did, because of the consequences that the other Indians faced. And they knew that, you know, with the coming of the railroad, with the killing of the buffalo, with the diseases brought to the Indian reservations by the innocent, well intended settlers, they knew all of that was happening and that's what they try to prevent. And they knew that they were fighting a losing battle too at the same time. And that's why the majority of them agreed to go on to Indian reservations. But there were those like Geronimo who didn't.
- [27:12]
Don Wildman
What is it about the Apache that the media found so fascinating and Geronimo specifically because it was so sensationalized even in that time period? Especially in that time period. Right, yeah.
- [27:24]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Well, there was the yellow press in America. They were always searching for stories and they're the ones who created the stereotypes of the Apaches. And I think what's so fascinating with that is that, like I said, Geronimo understood that the white man, their language of violence, they like violence, they like somebody to fight, they like reporting on the killing of settlers, sometimes for their own purposes, because there was almost no very lucrative business in the Southwest except military contracts. And there was an explosion of military forts throughout Apacheland, from Arizona through southern New Mexico and even into part of our aboriginal territory centered in southern Colorado and into northern New Mexico. So there was an explosion and that's where all the lucrative contracts were. And it was to their benefit that the press saw an Apache behind every rock and every bush.
- [28:26]
Don Wildman
Yes, exactly. It's so much the story of the media, the storytelling of this whole winning of the West, I suppose you call it. But also the oppression of these peoples is characterized as, you know, dealing with savages and, and sort of demons out there. And that's. That sells newspapers and sells magazines and. And so that starts way back when, in the mid-1800s for sure. I've mentioned several times, we've talked about several times, Geronimo Being on the reservation and then not being on the reservation, breaking out several different times. In 1886, he surrenders again, but this time to First Lieutenant Charles Bear Gatewood, along with 20 other Apache from his group. And this is, this is significant, the most significant of his surrenders. He learns that his family and entire people have been exiled to Florida because of his continued resistance from his actions. Something happened to his people. This is the hardest thing for him to face. Can you describe this episode and what takes place and where he ends up?
- [29:25]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yes, I think this is the biggest atrocity against the Apache people is their removal of almost 500 Apache people, mainly those that were Cherokaya, to the prison camps in Alabama and Florida. And Nelson A. Miles had told them that their people would not be taken over there. But once they rounded up and got Geronimo, then they took all his people, all the women and children and even the Apache scouts who helped capture Geronimo and without whom the military might have given up because the Apaches were too smart for them. They had a better strategy. They knew the land. So the general crook in the 1860s started using Apache scouts and they used their own people against Geronimo. And that's how they captured him.
- [30:19]
Don Wildman
Right.
- [30:19]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
But to read the literature and the history of that period, it was the soldiers who were so smart, and they captured Geronimo while they lied to him when they told him to come in. And they took his people and they even included the Apache scouts and they took the women and children and send the children to the new boarding school located in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where many of the students died, were never brought home, were taken without their permission, and then they went to prison in Florida and Alabama.
- [30:55]
Don Wildman
Yeah, and this isn't just normal prison, if there is such a thing. These are. These are terrible places that you look them up. Fort Marion in Florida is around St. Augustine. It's hot. These are dungeon like conditions. Right. And as a result, many of these men in Geronimo's group die. He does not. Which is amazing considering, but he does this. I want to underscore before we take another break that he does this in order to free his people. These are the conditions for his surrender. He wishes to avoid execution, but he also wishes to save his people. And that's why he comes in. This does not happen. Right. Those people are left where they are and then also broken up. And as you say, the children are shipped off to boarding schools. It's the ultimate displacement.
- [31:44]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
It's the ultimate atrocity.
- [31:46]
Don Wildman
Yeah, exactly.
- [31:47]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
This is genocide. And it's extermination. It's to get rid of these people who were in the way of the march of towards Manifest Destiny. The fact that they wanted the Apache land so much that they would do anything. Including acting like a bunch of devils to our people.
- [32:06]
Don Wildman
Yep. Exactly. Okay, after the break, Veronica and I will discuss the aftermath of this moment and the memory of Geronimo's campaign.
- [32:24]
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- [32:34]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
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- [32:37]
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- [32:44]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
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- [32:46]
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- [32:49]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
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- [32:52]
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- [33:30]
Don Wildman
Veronica. Geronimo has been captured for the final time. Or in this case, surrendered for the final time. By 1886, native warriors and chieftains, once feared, have become a curiosity, even a spectacle. Buffalo Bill's Wild west show debuted in 1883 in Nebraska. People across the country, and soon the world, are fascinated by what has become this disarmed resistance now swiftly being cast in a romantic and legendary light. For Geronimo. He has to play an unwilling part in this, doesn't he?
- [34:02]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yes, he does. He's a realist. He understands what it would take to survive and for his people to survive as well. So he did a lot of things that he would, under normal circumstances, would not do.
- [34:16]
Don Wildman
Right. This is the surreal part of the story, really. I mean, it's not unlike Sitting Bull being in those Wild west shows as a prisoner. Geronimo is exhibited as an entertaining attraction for settlers in other parts of the country by the US Military. He's exhibited with armed guards as part of Wild west shows. These shows were often used to present the narrative of the cowboy versus the Indian, painting the indigenous people as monstrous and bloodthirsty. This whole legend, this whole Stereotype, which hasn't even made it to the movies yet. This is the late 1800s. That's how entrenched this stereotype becomes, because of this need to sort of paint this, these people as such. He even made it to the St. Louis World's Fair wearing full regalia, marked as an Apache chief, even though he was not a chief. How long did this period go where he was doing this?
- [35:10]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Well, it went into the early 1900s, as you know, that he was also asked to ride in the parade with Theodore Roosevelt when he got inaugurated. And he wrote with the other chiefs, I believe, one of them, sue and Ness Perce Chief. And he was pretty smart to try to use that to his advantage, too, because he was selling buttons off of his jacket and keeping that money. So he started creating a bank account, and he used that money to help his people when there was not much to eat. And he didn't do it because he knew that he was going to be the clown or the attraction.
- [35:53]
Don Wildman
He's still a captured prisoner as far as the US Military is concerned, even while he's being exhibited, even while he's out and about.
- [35:59]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Right, right. The Chiricahua Apache band that was relocated to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, at that fort were all prisoners of war. They weren't. They weren't released until much later. And I don't think there's been any place in America where the Indian people were prisoners of war as long as Geronimo and his ban were. And now I look at it and I question that. I'm thinking, how could that have happened in America when America is supposed to be full of Christians and people who can treat people worldwide? And they complain about how people. They don't complain, but they brag about what a good nation they are. And yet they allowed this to happen. And there was no outrage about it, not until much, much later.
- [36:49]
Don Wildman
Yeah. This is my hope that, you know, investigating these things historically can give clarity to how we end up where we are and the truth of what this nation has really been to somehow emerge from this, from Florida. He is then relocated to, as you say, Fort Sill in Oklahoma, Oklahoma being Indian territory in those days. There again, tourists are permitted to look at Geronimo and his men in the cells as tourist attractions. There's a quote I want to read from something called the ray Weekly Times, May 19, 1900, and it's a headline is, Geronimo has Gone Mad. By this time, of course, Geronimo is world famous. I suppose he's like Sitting Bull as far as A symbol of these. Of these times. Geronimo. Here's the quote. Geronimo, the fierce and brutal Apache chief. Not a chief, by the way, but anyway, who cost this government a million dollars and hundreds of lives before he was finally captured, has gone stark mad, become a raving maniac in the prison at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where He has for 10 years been confined as a prisoner of war. Veronica, was any of that true?
- [37:52]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
I would say absolutely not. Geronimo doesn't strike him as a person who would go raving mad. He's got more dignity, he's got more sense of strength and commitment and. And he was just basically a good father and husband.
- [38:10]
Don Wildman
It's a mixed message, isn't it? Because on one hand they're keeping him in jail cells. On the other hand, they're taking him around as a war prize. I suppose it's also this kind of magical quality of him and the legendary fighting skills. I mean, that's the weird mixed message of it all. He finally dies, tragically in February 17, 1909. This man lives a long life, born in 1829, and then his legacy. This is what's so interesting to me, how this takes off even further into. Into apocryphal legend. His name becomes synonymous with. With the Indian Wars, I suppose, and. And it begins to appear in classic Western movies like Stagecoast, 1939, Geronimo, with a exclamation point, 1939, another Geronimo remake in 1962. There's TV shows, of course, like Ranger. All of this part of reimagining the American west right into the 1950s, perpetuating stereotypes, particularly in the Southwest, often in places like Monument Valley, which is Navajo land. I grew up, you know, in the. In the 60s, and I remember shouting Geronimo every time I jumped off a rock or. Or a diving board. I mean, that name was this magical thing that. That Americans like me as kids grabbed onto. It was even, you know, that had come from the use of it as a World War II paratrooper thing, where they used to say it as they jumped out the planes, Right?
- [39:41]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yeah, that is correct. Yeah.
- [39:42]
Don Wildman
It's embarrassing to talk about it, but I'm just trying to make it clear that this was why we have this name in our lexicon, as white people do anyway, versus the truth and reality of who this man really was and who his people really were. It's. It's black and white.
- [39:59]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Yeah. As they say, history is written by the victors. They're the ones in charge of writing Native American history. And it just has. It hasn't been tell just lately that the Native Americans had begun to write their own history, re examine their what has been said about them and writing in more detail about their own people and what has happened to them, how resilient they were, how clever they were to survive, how to keep their language as best they could and to become a part of America, so to speak.
- [40:34]
Don Wildman
Yes, the truth, the truthful story. The bottom line is Geronimo was a tribal warrior avenger in real life who became then a captured celebrity which is so much the story of the American west and the displacement of Native nations and ultimately the closing of the frontier. That's how it goes. But in Geronimo's case, it's especially colorful because of so much of his personality which was admired, feared and then made a legend of. Dr. Veronica Tiller is a Hikaria Apache writer of Native American history, editor and publisher of the acclaimed economic reference guide Tiller's Guide to Indian Country. It is an honor to meet you. Thank you so much, Veronica, for joining us today. Really appreciate it.
- [41:15]
Dr. Veronica Tiller
Thank you again for the invitation.
- [41:23]
Don Wildman
Thanks for listening to American history hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. From mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, please share with a friend. American History hit with me, Don Wildman, so grateful for your support. Thanks so much.