Jamestown: The Journey To America

Summary

Podcast Summary: American History Hit
Episode: Jamestown: The Journey To America
Release Date: February 3, 2025
Host: Don Wildman
Guest: Mark Summers, Educational Director of Youth and Public Programs, Jamestown Rediscovery

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Introduction

In this episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves into the intricate journey of the Jamestown settlers, exploring the motivations, challenges, and pivotal moments that shaped the establishment of the first permanent English colony in North America. Don is joined by Mark Summers, the Educational Director of Youth and Public Programs from Jamestown Rediscovery, who provides expert insights into this foundational episode of American history.

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England’s Late Entry into Colonization

[05:10] Mark Summers:
"England at the eve of 1607 was like a second-rate player compared to Spain and Portugal in the age of discovery. Resource scarcity and economic struggles held them back from earlier successful colonization."

England lagged behind powers like Spain and Portugal in the race for overseas colonies. Unlike these nations, England was grappling with internal issues such as poverty, land enclosures, and economic instability, which hindered their early efforts at establishing colonies.

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The Virginia Company and Motivations for Colonization

[07:03] Mark Summers:
"The Virginia Company of London wasn't just seeking adventure; it was a strategic investment. These were wealthy merchants looking to exploit the resources of the New World, much like today's corporations investing in space exploration."

The Virginia Company of London spearheaded the Jamestown expedition as a joint-stock company, aiming to profit from the exploitation of Virginia's natural resources. This approach marked a shift from purely exploratory missions to economically driven colonization efforts.

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Journey to Jamestown: Ships, Captains, and Voyage Challenges

[13:07] Mark Summers:
"They appointed Christopher Newport, an experienced privateer who had lost an arm to Spanish chain shot, as the Admiral of the fleet. Alongside him were Bartholomew Gosnold and the enigmatic John Radcliffe, captains chosen for their military and sailing expertise."

The expedition set sail in December 1606 aboard three ships: the Susan Constant, the Godspeed, and the Discovery. The journey was fraught with difficulties, including adverse weather conditions and limited supplies, leading to delays and increased tensions among the crew.

[25:07] Mark Summers:
"Imagine being on a ship for three and a half months with little personal space, constant seasickness, and the ever-present fear of mutiny. This was the reality for the 104 settlers who embarked on this perilous journey."

The voyage was a harrowing experience for the settlers, marked by cramped conditions, disease, and internal conflicts. Notably, tensions arose between Captain Newport and John Smith, a prominent leader whose assertive nature led to his temporary arrest for mutiny.

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Arrival at Jamestown: First Impressions and Initial Challenges

[28:35] Mark Summers:
"When they arrived on April 26, 1607, it was a mix of relief and awe. The vastness of the Chesapeake Bay and the dense forests were both breathtaking and intimidating, sparking hopes of prosperity and fears of the unknown."

Upon landing, the settlers were immediately struck by the rich and unfamiliar landscape. Their initial assessment led them to settle on what is now known as Jamestown Island, choosing a strategic location with access to deep waterways but still vulnerable to external threats.

[29:06] Mark Summers:
"Erecting a large cross and claiming the land in the king’s name signified their intent to establish a lasting presence, but the lack of immediate fortification left them exposed to potential dangers."

The settlers quickly began to lay claim to the land, but delays in building a fort left them unprotected against possible Spanish incursions and hostile interactions with indigenous populations.

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Interactions with Native Americans and Spanish Threats

[20:03] Mark Summers:
"The Spanish were a looming threat, having already established a presence in Florida. The charter of Jamestown required the settlers to seek protection through inland movement, avoiding immediate coastal settlements to reduce vulnerability."

The geopolitical tensions between England and Spain heavily influenced the settlers' strategies. Their instructions emphasized moving inland to establish a secure foothold, mindful of the Spanish presence in nearby territories.

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Political Infighting and Leadership Issues

[27:35] Mark Summers:
"Leadership dynamics aboard the ships and later in the colony were complex. John Smith's assertiveness clashed with Captain Newport's authority, leading to his temporary arrest and highlighting the fragile power structures within the group."

Internal conflicts and power struggles plagued the early days of Jamestown. The settlers grappled with establishing a governance system, balancing authority among military leaders and appointed investors, which often led to friction and instability.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[33:12] Mark Summers:
"Jamestown's legacy is a testament to resilience amidst adversity. Despite the multitude of challenges—from hostile environments and limited resources to internal discord—the colony laid the groundwork for future American settlements."

The founding of Jamestown was a complex and arduous endeavor marked by ambition, hardship, and determination. The lessons learned from these early struggles provided valuable insights that would shape the future of English colonization in North America.

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Additional Resources

For more information on Jamestown Rediscovery and to explore their ongoing archaeological work, visit HistoricJamestown.org.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mark Summers at [07:03]:
  "These were wealthy merchants looking to exploit the resources of the New World, much like today's corporations investing in space exploration."

• Mark Summers at [25:07]:
  "Imagine being on a ship for three and a half months with little personal space, constant seasickness, and the ever-present fear of mutiny."

• Mark Summers at [28:35]:
  "The vastness of the Chesapeake Bay and the dense forests were both breathtaking and intimidating, sparking hopes of prosperity and fears of the unknown."

• Mark Summers at [33:12]:
  "Jamestown's legacy is a testament to resilience amidst adversity."

---

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of Jamestown's journey, shedding light on the human experiences and strategic decisions that played pivotal roles in the establishment of what would become the United States. Whether you're a history enthusiast or new to the topic, this detailed account provides valuable insights into America's colonial beginnings.

Transcript

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[Knox McCoy]

Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

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Do you like being educated on things that entertain but don't matter? Well, then you need to be listening to the Podcast with Knox and Jamie Every Wednesday we put together an episode dedicated to delightful idiocy to give your brain a break from all the serious and important stuff.

[Knox McCoy]

Whether we're deep diving a classic movie, dissecting the true meanings behind the newest slang, or dunking on our own listeners for their bad takes or cringy stories, we always approach our topics with humor and just a little bit of side eye. And we end every episode with recommendations on all the best new movies, books, TV shows or music.

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[Knox McCoy]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

[Jamie Golden]

Listen to this Acast show ad free on Amazon Music with your prime.

[Knox McCoy]

Membership or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jamie Golden]

Three ships sit motionless in the waters of Blackwall Docks in London, shielded from the Thames fierce winds by the horseshoe bend in this stretch of the river, the vessels are utterly still in waters spattered by an insistent, wintry sleet. Any reflections that might otherwise be shimmering on the currents are only broken shadows on the dark, dappled water. It is morning in December 1606. The crews of the Susan Constant, the Godspeed, and the Discovery are readying their ships to be boarded. The sailors on the Godspeed and Discovery cast envious glances at the Susan Constant, a ship twice the size of their own, but together. In just a few days, these vessels will embark westward into the unknown, crossing the wide Atlantic. Blackwall the Thames greatest shipyard has Awakened, local men leave their homes nearby and head for the docks. Others who've traveled distances shuffle out of inns. All of them voyagers awaiting transport to the ships, mulling about busy wharves and alleyways. It's all a far cry from the long, lonely months ahead for them, 100 men who will very soon have only the ocean and each other for company. Welcome to American History Hit. And I'm Don Wildman, and it's great to have you aboard. 1606, London. King James VI of Scotland, the first of England and Ireland, sits on the throne. It is the year the Dutch master Rembrandt is born. Fashion favors high waistlines, full sleeves and tall brimmed hats for both men and women. Shakespeare's Macbeth will premiere this year, and later, on December 26, King Lear will make its recorded debut as at Whitehall Palace. In April of this year, the Virginia Company receives its charter to colonize a portion of North America's eastern coast. By this time, of course, the Spanish have already established their presence to the south for 100 years. The Portuguese have made landings in what will become Canada and across South America. The British too have ventured across the Atlantic to Newfoundland and the ill fated colony of Roanoke off the coast of today's North Carolina. Now they will attempt colonization once again, but this time determined to make it stick. I am joined in this episode by Mark Summers, educational director of youth and public programs from Jamestown Rediscovery. Together we will travel to London to uncover the story behind this expedition, who backed it, who boarded the ships, and why Jamestown, this specific spot on the North American eastern shore, was chosen. Mark Summers, welcome to American history Hit. Nice to meet you.

[Knox McCoy]

Well, it's. Pleased to be here. I enjoy your show, Mark.

[Jamie Golden]

Where we begin this conversation about Jamestown is really back in England and in a broader sense, in Europe. This is the tail end of the age of discovery. I mean, you've got Spain in South America, Portugal's been around. Even the Dutch are doing their own beginnings of things. Why is England so far behind at this point in this endeavor?

[Knox McCoy]

Certainly. I mean, I sometimes refer to England at the eve of 1607 as the sun has not yet risen on the British Empire. Yes, we have a situation where England is rather second rate compared to their rivals, of course, Spain and Portugal. As you mentioned, the Dutch are getting involved. France is a far wealthier country and England is in northern Europe having failed, depending on how you count them, seven to nine times before Jamestown, including the famous lost colony of Roanoke. To establish a colony, it's embarrassing. There is resource issues. We have a lot of poverty in England, a lot of, you know, land enclosures. Trying to sum up 2, 300 years of English economics. But obviously there's a lot of problems going on and I think, you know, we're breaking down what a colony is. You know, in simplest terms, it's a way for a country to make money taking resources away from another. And England is a resource poor country compared to others.

[Jamie Golden]

Yeah, they are heading for bad times. Civil war and all the rest is going on over there. Nonetheless, they are prompted to do this. For what reason? What does get them into the race?

[Knox McCoy]

There's multiple motivations. I could argue that if we were to do a pyramid of English society, a good deal of the population, over 90 to 98% are poor. But there is two groups of people who are well to do. The nobility who owns almost the entire country. But this rising, you know, in history it's a cliche to say the middle class is always rising. But there is a business community in London and other poor communities that is doing quite well and sees America as an investment opportunity.

[Jamie Golden]

Yeah, I mean, we think of colonization on this side as this really glowing, righteous thing because we got here for that reason, the pilgrims and all the rest. But it was a largely money driven endeavor. I mean, these were companies that were being formed in order to exploit resources in these new lands, this new world, especially gold for the Spanish. And that word had gotten around. Obviously this was an amazing thing that Spain had accomplished by doing what they did in South America. England wants their piece of the action.

[Knox McCoy]

Yeah, I sometimes tell the public it's shockingly disappointing. Everybody wants this idealistic founding of what becomes the United States. But it really was created as we know it in a boardroom in London with a bunch of rich guys who wanted to get richer. Now they're wearing lace collars and poofy pants. So it's the 1600s, but the business and economic interests are actually shockingly like today.

[Jamie Golden]

Right. What is the Virginia Company? Because that's who's going to be heading over to Virginia.

[Knox McCoy]

Correct. So this has already been done in England before. The Muscovy Company investing in Russia and other places. It is before they use the word capitalism. You have a business community. They're already wealthy. They're going to get wealthier. And what makes the Dutch and English different than their continental neighbors is the idea of using the business class to fund these colonies. It's like space travel. I mean, without mentioning names, there are at least three corporations a day that are investing in Outer space. It's actually very similar. This is their version of going outer space. It's very expensive, it's very dangerous. It needs a lot of capital to get off the ground. And don't bother to ask King James for any money.

[Jamie Golden]

Right. And let's get the notes of the monarchy straight. So we had Queen Elizabeth. She is succeeded by James I, who is also James VI of Scotland. Right.

[Knox McCoy]

Well, there's a couple of things going on geopolitically. First of all, Elizabeth the Virgin Queen dies without children. So we get our name, Virginia, from her four years before, James said in 1603. Now, most kings and queens in Europe are cousins. It's not too hard to find someone who can take over. But getting Scotland and England to join their monarchies before they join their parliaments means you keep Scotland from being an enemy and you bring them into the fold. So you have this Scottish king who's relatively poor, very intelligent, he likes to write about religion and politics. He would love the Internet today. He'd be typing away on Reddit or something. But he has a reputation being cash poor and disagreeable. So, you know, if you're the King of Scotland, you're now the King of England. You've watched England fail multiple times to start a colony. So he's not going to fund this, but he needs to give his permission. So when you're talking about the Virginia Company of London, officially the book answers they're a joint stock company, but to cut to the chase, it's a corporation already wealthy people, they're investing their money. But you cannot leave England without the King's permission. If you do so, you forfeit your assets, your family can get in trouble. So they have to get a charter, a permission slip, a contract written by the King's lawyers. So the first charter of Jamestown was given in 1606.

[Jamie Golden]

Right. And spoiler alert, it's going to be called Jamestown for that reason.

[Knox McCoy]

Correct. So, yeah, So I will say that technically it's a charter for Virginia, and this is a little in the weeds, but there were two different Virginia companies. There was a branch in London that was supposed to go to the southern part of Virginia, he now called Virginia, and it was a lesser known northern branch out of Plymouth, England, the West country that attempted to settle what is now Maine and didn't even last a year. But we'll focus on the, what they call the Virginia Company of London. And they are focused on the 38th to 41st parallel. So basically New York City to South Carolina, shooting for the Chesapeake Bay, looking for resources.

[Jamie Golden]

And at the time, of course, we have Florida, which is belonging to the Spanish. We have the Spanish big time down further south from there. The French are up north. How is it that this big chunk of the eastern seaboard of North America is available for colonization?

[Knox McCoy]

Well, it already been claimed as early as 1497. So Giovanni Cabati, the English column John Cabot had claimed Newfoundland back in 1497. Now there's this big gap between 1497 and 1607, and that's because Henry VIII spent most of his resources not exploiting America, but trying to recapture France and failed to do so. So it's now, a couple generations later, there's been a few, of course, earlier attempts that all failed. The Spanish still claim Virginia as Florida del Norte. So that's a fear the English have. So this will play into when we get into some of the instructions the colonists get when they actually get here. But the charter spells out where you can go. The other thing, the charter does a couple other things, is it grants the people from England the rights of Englishmen when they get here. So no one's going to leave England if they don't have the English rights. But actually, the document is somewhat humorous. You can tell it's written by lawyers because the king isn't investing any money. He's not risking anything. You can't sue him or blame him if anything goes wrong. He's not going to aid you if you get caught by the Spanish. But he requires 20% of the profit if you find gold and silver or precious minerals.

[Jamie Golden]

Okay? And that's why I'm investing. I'm expecting to get gold and silver or at least the payments for that.

[Knox McCoy]

I'm letting you go, but I get to benefit. And nothing goes wrong. It's going to be tied to me. Very, very, very slick.

[Jamie Golden]

And how do they do the nuts and bolts of this thing? How do they find the sailors and all that?

[Knox McCoy]

Well, obviously, there's a long recruiting period, and one of the things, you know, we could get bogged down into, but they have a difficult time getting people willing to rent their ships. We like to give these ships these names and think they're these glorious things, you know, the Susan Constant or in Massachusetts, the Mayflower. But they're no different than a cargo plane. You don't remember the name of the plane you were last on. It drops people off and it goes back on other missions. So part of it is a lot of merchants aren't necessarily going to want to rent their ships out for this potentially dangerous Voyage? Yes. They're going to recruit sailors and common people. But almost half the colonists are younger sons of gentlemen, cash poor people who grew up privileged because their families can afford the ticket. And the Virginia Company doesn't have to put up all the money. This company is trying to do things as cheap as possible and it's going to cause problems when they get here.

[Jamie Golden]

Interesting. Obviously, their water route to the Pacific is the essential goal here. Right?

[Knox McCoy]

It's a. It's an. Is a goal. I mean, there's a lot of things to cover. One of the things they were supposed to find was a northwest flowing river. Because assuming they could get a shortcut or what they call the northwest passes to China, they say Cathay, but that's what they mean. That's certainly a goal. Precious minerals. I mean, they look at a map and they say, well, you know, Virginia and Spain are kind of parallel. The climate should be the same, There should be all these precious minerals here. We just got to get out there and establish essentially what we would call a beachhead.

[Anker Soundcore]

Right.

[Jamie Golden]

And it makes sense. You know, we kind of roll our eyes and make fun of these people mistaking it for India and all the rest of it. But when you see the Chesapeake Bay, it's a huge piece of water even today. And you can only imagine somebody sailing into one of those tiny little ships saying, okay, good, this is the way to India. It's right here. And no wonder they would head off that way. Who are going to captain these ships?

[Knox McCoy]

Well, they managed to get a very experienced mariner to be the admiral of the fleet. So they get three ships. His name is Christopher Newport and he had experience as a privateer. So obviously they know they're going to be going through the Caribbean. To answer your earlier question, they're going to try to take the same route pioneered by Columbus, which is to be pushed the way hurricanes form, pushed up from Africa towards the Caribbean. So they want somebody who knows how to fight. He'd already lost his arm to Spanish chain shot, so he had been experienced. Gosnold is one of the captains of the ships. Bartholomew Gosnold. He'd actually been to America earlier in one of those failed colonies. Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, that's him. And the other one is John Radcliffe, a shady fellow living under an alias, John Sycamore, that we know very little about. But those are your three captains. My guess is they were picked because of their military and sailing experience. So the Susan Constant is a flagship, It's a merchant ship. Christopher Newport is the Admiral and the captain of the ship. Bartholomew Gosnell is the captain of a medium sized ship called the Godspeed. He had been to America before and John Radcliffe is in charge of a small ship, a penance, which is going to be the one of the three ships left behind because it's small enough for bay voyages. That's John Radcliffe, that's actually Captain and again, he's the one we know the least about. He's a very mysterious fellow.

[Jamie Golden]

Do they always go in threes these these famous voyages?

[Knox McCoy]

Seems like it does seem like it. I mean you will see later fleets of Jamestown where they have five, six, seven, seven up to nine ships. But this particular one, my guess is it's just coincidence, but it's also probably the amount of ships that they could actually get a hold of.

[Jamie Golden]

Yeah and they got, I'm sure there's how much supplies do they need, etc. Etc. I'll be right back after this short break. Meantime, if you'd like us to cover anything specifically, if you have any ideas of subject matter we should be looking at, send us an email atahhistoryhit.com we'd love to hear from you.

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[Don Wildman]

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[Knox McCoy]

Hey, prime members, you can listen to this show ad free on Amazon Music.

[Jamie Golden]

Download the Amazon Music app today. So I want to get a little nautically in the weeds here. How do they choose the time of year to go? How much strategy did they understand about what they were doing?

[Knox McCoy]

I do think there's this idea of trying to leave in December. Ideally, the journey should take, you know, over six weeks. It takes a lot longer. So they left in December 1606. They didn't get here to April 1607 because they spent several weeks with contrary winds in the English Channel. So they're not really leaving as early as possible. So they're delayed. And of course, these delays eat into the supplies, and it's going to cause, you know, problems on board the ships. I will state, too, that they only rounded up 105 people out of a country of 4 million, 98% of whom were poor. So I think the silence of most English people is telling you most average Joes don't think this is a good idea.

[Jamie Golden]

Interesting. And they would have seen ads for this in the broadsides. I mean, how is this even.

[Knox McCoy]

Oh, there are times when they put up posters around London. In some cases, they don't even have words on them. They just show these nice, breezy ships. I kind of jokingly refer to them as bad timeshare ads. I mean, this is a company wanting to make money cheap as possible, trying to get people to go when there's already a track record that people know in the street, hey, this isn't always going to work out.

[Jamie Golden]

So let me be clear. Let me summarize. This corporation has organized itself for a departure at the end of 1606. They understand that they are looking for this Northwest passage, but they're going to be happy if they create a colony that finds gold, ideally silver, of course, but also farms things and sends it back to England. Right.

[Knox McCoy]

All these things are gold. They're all in the charter. It's a matter of what can we do to make money. And the reason why. The Spanish, who are the I call Elephante in a room. The Spanish have already been in the Chesapeake earlier. They got here as early as 1535, and they didn't find any gold and silver. So they suspected any English colony in the Chesapeake will be used for piracy purposes. So that's another thing going on here that Rival with Spain. The English have been picking off Spanish convoys. So there's always that aspect to too. There's a lot of things. There's a military aspect, there's a political one, there's a financial one. There's also religious component since they're a Protestant and the Spain is Catholic and they both think the world's apocalyptic. All these are issues.

[Jamie Golden]

Yeah. And it hadn't been too long before that Roanoke did not do well.

[Knox McCoy]

Correct.

[Jamie Golden]

How many years between this and Roanoke?

[Knox McCoy]

It's a good 25 years.

[Jamie Golden]

Okay. But that's. That is now a fable in the streets of London. This was a big mystery how that even happened. And all the stories are not good in terms of success at this point.

[Knox McCoy]

Right. And there's even lesser known colonies that that failed. I mean, most of these colonies, they don't disappear. They don't do anything mysterious. They simply run out of money or the people rebel and they leave. So this is definitely a country who's just not won yet.

[Jamie Golden]

So they have to first head for the Caribbean and then head north. That's the general pushed up, right? Yeah, exactly. Are they heading for what is eventually named the James River?

[Knox McCoy]

Yeah, they definitely. Well, they're heading for the Chesapeake Bay. They already know of it. During the Roanoke colony, there was an attempt. Some of the Roanoke colonists explored what is now the city of Virginia Beach, Chesapeake Bay. So they were aware that there's all these water, deep rivers, and they should head there. In fact, I think one of the Roanoke voyages was supposed to go there anyway, but their pilot dropped them off in North Carolina. So they'd already known decades earlier to shoot for that area. They saw it as strategic. The English, the Spanish, the Dutch, the Native Americans. Today the United States military. Chesapeake Bay already had a reputation of being very financially and militarily strategic.

[Jamie Golden]

Sure. I mean, and that's important. You've got Spain not too far away. So they have to be prepared for attack, really.

[Knox McCoy]

Correct. This will lead into the instructions to the colonists too. The charter mainly spells out the financial and big picture goals. But when they actually land in Virginia in April, they don't go go to Jamestown right away. They land 60 miles to the east, next to the ocean and what's now called the city of Virginia Beach, Cape Henry, they named it for the Prince. And they actually opened up instructions. And these instructions were not to be read until they landed. It spelled out who was in charge. They didn't want to open those instructions in London because if your name wasn't on the list of leaders, you Might have quit. And it actually spelled out some rules. And one of the things that shows you the strategy is in the instructions. The first rule they had to follow was to not sit next to the ocean. They didn't want to be killed by the Spanish. They referenced this earlier French colony in Florida called Fort Caroline that was wiped out by the Spanish. So sail inland. They're supposed to go 100 miles inland. They don't go that far. But that was one of the first things. Northwest flowing deep river for shipping purposes. And to find the land where they didn't see what they called naturals or Native Americans. So they definitely have a fear of the locals, a fear of the Spanish, and also recognizing the instructions. Try not to make the same mistakes that other colonies made before you.

[Jamie Golden]

Like die.

[Knox McCoy]

Die disappear. Get blown up. Yes. Real fierce.

[Jamie Golden]

And this is how they end up 50 miles up the river.

[Knox McCoy]

Correct.

[Jamie Golden]

And find what is essentially a peninsula or an island.

[Knox McCoy]

It's confusing because today, because of erosion, it is an island. So you'll hear people call it Jamestown island, but it was actually a peninsula. At high tide, it temporarily became an island. What they're looking for is they have a river channel which is still there today. It's 35ft deep. So they can test the waters and know it's deep. They were supposed to find high ground. And that's kind of laughable because our part of Virginia is very flat. But there's a big hill where they build the fort. Well, they will build the fort. And the other thing, it's far enough away where they feel like they can't be caught by the Spanish. And they don't see any Native Americans living there. So it to them, it checks all the boxes.

[Jamie Golden]

Yeah.

[Knox McCoy]

And I always like to remind folks, well, if it looks too good to be true.

[Jamie Golden]

Sure is. So to review, we've got 104 settlers coming in. They arrive. All these people are men, right?

[Knox McCoy]

Right. They didn't bring women and children. There's four teenage boys, but these are all over 13, so that's considered more adult than today. All men. No. They did have women and children at Roanoke, and now this is just conjecture on my part. But perhaps losing so many civilians in the Roanoke colony meant that this time they're gonna mostly focus on soldiers and laborers. I liken it to the civilian space program was cut after the Challenger in 1986. I feel like a similar thing might be going on here.

[Jamie Golden]

Bring the women later.

[Knox McCoy]

Right.

[Jamie Golden]

Too dangerous. I suppose. They've all been interviewed, and they're all useful employees of the company.

[Knox McCoy]

Yeah. There's a lot not written on this. What we can conjecture on, based on where most of the colonists were from. We do know where these men were from. There's three, what I'll call circles of recruitment. Nearly half come from London. So they're recruiting people from the city. Most of your laborers are coming from there. There's a chunk coming from Lincolnshire in the East Midlands, but that's where John Smith is from, so he must be the mover behind that. And there's a bunch from what's called East Anglia, Norfolk, Suffolk, where Gosnold is from. So it seems to me that some of the major players are actually responsible for recruiting people. And they're recruiting the servants, the other gentlemen and laborers from their local regions. But almost every colonist is from those three places.

[Jamie Golden]

Had this been a horrendous voyage. I mean, this always just boggles the mind to think of these people heading off for their first time on the ocean, never mind crossing it. Something I will never do in my lifetime. And it's just astonishing.

[Knox McCoy]

It's horrific. I mean, you're jamming. You know, I work with children and I will tell you, I mean, what's not taught to them in school is that you're stuck. I mean, these are people who wouldn't want to be stuck on a bus or a plane or a car for more than three or four hours. You're talking a three and a half month journey stuck in these ships. It's going to smell bad. People are going to bump into you. How many times can you play the same card game? How many times can you hear the same guy tell jokes? I'm sure these things, they don't write down. We do know there's a bit of a mutiny on board with John Smith.

[Jamie Golden]

Yeah, tell me about that.

[Knox McCoy]

Well, he's actually arrested by Captain Newport on the charges of fomenting mutiny. My guess is he's just telling people they're taking us the wrong place. It's taking too long. They're not the right people in charge. It just. To me, rather than getting too into what we don't know, it seems to me there's obviously a lot of stress, there's a lot of seasickness, there's a lot of anger, which I think would occur even today. But when you put a lot of people of different backgrounds in tight spaces for too long a journey, and in.

[Jamie Golden]

Those days you're a tiny ship on a big ocean, you go backwards at times, sideways at times. I mean, finding the path is A confusing and difficult thing. That's why it takes so long. And so you can only imagine from day to day how much argument there was, you know, about where the hell are we, you know, let alone is our food going to last and my child is sick or whoever, you know, I'm talking the other voyages. So the mutiny happens in the middle of the ocean?

[Knox McCoy]

Yeah, from what I can tell, I think it's sort of John Smith must be talking a little too much. And he is, we'll get into him a little bit, but he is a soldier of fortune, a self made man, somebody that many Americans admire because he seems so American, but he is somebody who's pulled himself up from a lower rank in society, being given a high position, that has a high opinion of himself. So he will talk and he is seen as obnoxious to the leadership. So there's obviously must be some tension. And they do, you know, stop on several islands, for example. But clearly the long voyage, the chain of command not being understood because remember, other than Captain Newport, nobody knew what their position was in the colony until they landed and read the instructions. So there's obviously some political jockeying going on too.

[Jamie Golden]

So, Mark, were journals kept on this voyage? Do we know the details of their experience?

[Knox McCoy]

We have a couple written accounts. They're written after the fact. John Smith writes a version of the voyage and so does his arch enemy, George Percy. And these are from two different social classes. They do agree on the route of the journey. They don't agree on the numbers of people. We presume it's 104 based on counting the people whose names we know. It could have been more. They use this phrase a lot. Diverse others. So always catch that when you're looking at a ship's record, there's unnamed people, but nevertheless, I think based on the size of the ships, that's about right. Again, they kind of both reference some tension on board, they reference the length of the journey, they reference the storm, they reference, you know, kind of finding their Chesapeake Bay by accident. And everyone kind of is awestruck at the trees and the landscape. And they refer to Virginia as kind of a Garden of Eden. It's a very different experience than what they're coming from in England.

[Jamie Golden]

So they arrive somehow, some way. April 26, 1607. A holy day for these people, I'm sure, when they somehow find their way pretty close.

[Knox McCoy]

Right, right. They actually found the Chesapeake Bay somewhat by accident. They got pushed into the bay by storm. So I'm sure they see this as providential. The very first thing they do when they land is the minister actually offers a prayer. They erect a large cross, you know, they claim the land in the name of their king. And they unload their supplies and then read the instructions. And it lists Captain John Smith as one of the actual leaders of the colony while he's due to be executed for mutiny. So that's one of those snatched from the jaws of the death.

[Jamie Golden]

Yeah, right. Big relief for that man. They finally land on what will become Jamestown, the island, May 14, 1607. As we said, after searching upriver to sort of qualify for all the criteria there, at that point, we are on our way to a successful colony. Everything easy, right?

[Knox McCoy]

Right. See, this is what they assume and then right away it goes wrong. One of the things you have to keep in mind is although they're supposed to build a fort, they don't do so right away. And you know, there's lots of reasons. One that's stated is when they landed, the actual president or the head of the council is a guy named Everett Mariah Wingfield. He's an aristocrat. He sounds like an aristocrat. He was the only investor who showed up in the first voyage. So he got to be the boss. Now, he had some military experience, he had connections, but he doesn't want to build the fort right away. He feels like it will intimidate the local Native American people. The other thing is, I also have to assume that these people are also very tired after this long journey. They're spending all this time, you know, pushing big barrels and unloading crates and chopping down trees and putting up tents. So that takes a while and I think, you know, fatigue is a factor as well.

[Jamie Golden]

Had they lost anybody on this voyage?

[Knox McCoy]

So they do have originally 105. There's a guy called Edward Brooke who dies not at sea on one of the islands. The best way to say it, as they said, is fat melted within his armor. So my guess is he had heat stroke. He was an older man. He had been in the Caribbean. He's probably wearing armor wool clothing. He dies of heat stroke. But to land 104, 105 is a testament to the one thing the English are very good at doing is sailing.

[Jamie Golden]

That's right.

[Knox McCoy]

This is not their problem.

[Jamie Golden]

You can only imagine. I mean, that's another thing to sort of take yourself out of your modern day view and realize at that time these lands have not been forested. These are gigantic trees. These are old primeval forests and beautiful, incredible wild lands for people who had come from A place that had been completely forested, like there was none of that going on in England for a thousand years. And so this is really important to keep in mind how awestruck they would have been. Explain when they first get off that ship, how are they going to face the task at hand, which is, we gotta make a home here?

[Knox McCoy]

That's a great question, because I'm not sure. A lot of doubt creeps in when they land. They have to have the memories of failed colonies. Of course, they're being given advice, don't make the same mistakes. But they're all struck by the land, by the size of the rivers. They just don't see this kind of water. When you go to the Chesapeake Bay, I think even today, you know, they're referencing an area today where we have the United States Atlantic Fleet is there. I mean, this is an enormous waterway. It makes sense even today when you go there. Well, perhaps the Pacific Ocean isn't far away. The varies, as you said, size of the trees, the land itself, the flocks of birds that would cover the sky. You know, we just haven't seen that in hundreds of years. They refer to it as this wonderful place. But I think in a way there's a sort of fear and danger that creeps in, that wonder, how are we going to do this? How are we going to get to work? How do you find gold and silver? Where is it? How are you going to make a profit here? So all these wonderful plans, now you get here, and who got to be the boss and who didn't? And of course, there were people disappointed that they weren't on the list. You see, what I think is very important here is although yes, they should be focused on the task at hand, political infighting is actually going to rear its head very quickly. And they will be resisted very quickly.

[Jamie Golden]

Exactly. For having, you know, in their minds, fortunately chosen a place where the naturals, as you call them, the native population, isn't existing. Boy, is it ever. And it's not very far away. And they are watching. Thank you so much, Mark. Mark Summers is the educational director of youth and public programs for Jamestown Rediscovery. What is Jamestown Rediscovery, Mark?

[Knox McCoy]

It's the name of the archaeological team that takes curators, historians and scientists and archaeologists to work together to find the historical records, but also the physical evidence of Jamestown. So it's a fun team to be a part of.

[Jamie Golden]

This is a gigantic day, if one did spend a day there, because there's so much to see in this place, isn't there.

[Knox McCoy]

There's so many things. There's lots of artifacts you can see. During the warmer months, you can watch archaeologists find things. We usually do about two tours a day. Historical, archaeological. We have so many different interests. If you're more scientific, more historical, political, whatever side you're on, whoever you are, you existed 400 years ago here. And that's why it's a good place to begin your American journey.

[Jamie Golden]

What's the website?

[Knox McCoy]

Www.historicjamestown with an E on the end of it.org There you go.

[Jamie Golden]

Check it out folks. Thanks Mark.

[Knox McCoy]

I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

[Jamie Golden]

Hey, thanks for listening to today's episode of American History. Hit check back in a week's time for the next installment of this special Jamestown series. In the meantime, have a gander at our back catalog hundreds of fascinating episodes. Have a listen wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you next time.

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[Knox McCoy]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Jamie Golden]

Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from wtf. I've been talking to all kinds of.

[Knox McCoy]

Famous people in my garage since 2009.

[Jamie Golden]

Including a sitting president.

[Knox McCoy]

You know, I don't imagine you were.

[Jamie Golden]

Flying in here on the chopper thinking.

[Knox McCoy]

Like, you know, I am nervous about Mark.

[Jamie Golden]

No, I wasn't.

[Knox McCoy]

Okay, well that's good.

[Jamie Golden]

That would be a problem. It would be a problem if the President was feeling stressed about coming to my garage.

[Knox McCoy]

Coming to your garage.

[Jamie Golden]

And now there's even more wtf when you subscribe to the Full Marin to get weekly bonus content and all WTF episodes ad free. Listen to WTF wherever you get podcasts.

[Knox McCoy]

And subscribe to the full [e-mail] WTF Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.