Long Walk of the Navajo

Summary

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American History Hit: “Long Walk of the Navajo”

Host: Don Wildman
Guest: Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale, Professor and Chair of American Studies at the University of New Mexico
Date: July 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of American History Hit confronts the tragic history of the Long Walk of the Navajo, a forced relocation of the Dine people in the 1860s. Host Don Wildman is joined by Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale—Navajo historian, author, and community leader—who guides listeners through the cultural, historical, and personal dimensions of the Long Walk, the devastation wrought by American expansion, and the lasting impact on Navajo life and memory. The discussion delves into the historical context, the scorched earth campaign led by U.S. forces, the suffering endured during and after the Long Walk, and the resilience and revitalization efforts of today’s Dine community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Navajo Identity and Homeland

[05:04 – 08:43]

• Identity: Dr. Dale introduces herself in the traditional Dine (pronounced Diné) way, explaining that “Dine means ‘the people’. Navajo is an exonym given by outsiders like the Spanish and Mexican governments.” (Dr. Dale, 05:36)
• Homeland: The Dine homeland is defined by four sacred mountains that span modern-day Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado.
  • “Denetka, Denepikeya, means ‘the people’s land’—encompassing vast, beautiful terrain.” (Dr. Dale, 06:28)
• Population: “The Navajo people do have the largest land base of any indigenous nation within the United States…our latest population count is about 400,000 people.” (Dr. Dale, 08:15)
• Landscape: Despite being called “desert,” the host and Dr. Dale describe the Southwest's richness and beauty, vital to Dine life and sustenance.

Context: American Expansion & War

[11:19 – 15:19]

• Historical Setting: The Dine, like other Native nations, became the targets of U.S. forced removal policies in the mid–late 19th century—comparable to the Trail of Tears.
• Key Figures: The war against the Navajo began in 1863 with General James Carleton’s orders for Kit Carson to begin a scorched-earth campaign.
  • “Carleton...issued orders that Kit Carson…begin the scorch and burn campaign against Navajo people. Canyon de Chelly was considered the stronghold of the Navajo people.” (Dr. Dale, 11:19)
• Contextual Forces: U.S.-Mexican War (1846–48) shifts territorial control, fueling American settler and resource interest in the region.

The Campaign Against the Navajo

[17:30 – 25:44]

• Scorched Earth: Carson’s campaign targeted every means of Navajo self-subsistence, resulting in destroyed crops, livestock, homes, and water sources.
  • “The campaign against Navajo people was really to destroy all manners of subsistence…some of them literally only had a piece of cloth to cover their privates.” (Dr. Dale, 25:44)
• Forced Surrender: The destructiveness forced thousands to surrender at military forts; these people were then forced into caravans on the Long Walk.
• Multiplicity of Marches: “The Long Walk is not just one long walk. There is record that there was at least 53 forced marches.” (Dr. Dale, 25:44)
• Routes: Marches spanned several routes, some as long as 450 miles, exposing the Navajo to severe deprivation and trauma.

The Siege at Canyon de Chelly

[32:33 – 34:09]

• Significance: Siege begins in January 1864—fortress for Navajo defense, becomes the critical turning point.

  • “Canyon de Chelly was the fortress of Navajo people…Managing Kit Carson and his men...to penetrate the canyon walls...led to the surrender of Navajo people.” (Dr. Dale, 33:04)

• Role of Manuelito: Dr. Dale’s ancestor, Chief Manuelito (Estride Ilhajin), exemplified resistance:

  • “Only until we have killed or captured Manuelito will we consider the Navajo people wholly defeated.” (Dr. Dale quoting an army report, 34:25)
  • Manuelito’s family and followers held out until 1866—a testament to Navajo resilience.

Life at Bosque Redondo (Fort Sumner)

[38:06 – 43:42]

• Conditions: Survivors arrived to find uninhabitable, alkali land. They lived in dugouts, reliant on meager rations, unable to farm or raise livestock.
  • “They lived in pits dug in the ground…The water was not drinkable…It was very difficult because they could not grow a crop.” (Dr. Dale, 38:24)
  • Navajo weaving and textiles continued as one of the few sustaining activities.
• Mortality and Return: Of 12,000 Navajo sent on forced marches, roughly 8,000 survived and returned after four years’ imprisonment, negotiated through the 1868 treaty.
• Trauma and Memory: Photographs taken at the camp mark “the first images of Navajo people…they were not only captured by the rifle…they were recaptured again with the lens of the camera.” (Dr. Dale quoting James Faris, 38:24)

Apologies, Reparations, and Historical Memory

[43:42 – 47:02]

• Federal Response: No official reparations; 2009’s Native American Apology Resolution offers only symbolic acknowledgment, disclaiming legal or financial responsibility.
  • “Apologies are apologies. They're empty. And they don't hold much in terms of reparations.” (Dr. Dale, 43:49)
• Intergenerational Impact: The story of the Long Walk was long sanitized or ignored by mainstream American culture and education.

Contemporary Dine Nation and Revitalization

[47:02 – 50:45]

• Modern Realities: The Navajo Nation faces ongoing struggles with poverty, lack of infrastructure, and resource exploitation by outsiders.
• Community and Identity: Despite historical trauma, Dr. Dale highlights active cultural revitalization, language renewal, and community-based scholarship.
  • “There's efforts to renew and revitalize the language that are just happening on multiple fronts...It's always good to remember for me and for Navajo people our origin stories…what our prayers and our ceremonies and songs are about.” (Dr. Dale, 48:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Naming and Identity:
  • “Dine is a Navajo word. It means the people…Navajo is...how we were recognized by outsiders, including the Spaniards, the Mexicans, and the Americans.”
    — Dr. Dale (05:36)
• On Forced Removal:
  • “Carleton…issued orders that Kit Carson…begin the scorch and burn campaign against Navajo people.”
    — Dr. Dale (11:19)
• On Historical Violence:
  • “War on indigenous people, forced surrender and forced relocation to lands called reservations that were undesirable to American settlers.”
    — Dr. Dale (23:19)
• On the Scorched Earth Policy:
  • “The campaign against Navajo people was really to destroy all manners of subsistence...the destruction of water sources, the burning of cornfields...livestock…every home...”
    — Dr. Dale (25:44)
• On the Purpose of Bosque Redondo:
  • “This was supposed to be their reservation. This was supposed to be their…new home…Indigenous people that had been herded to Indian Territory, they were to stay here. Our leaders were very successful…in negotiating an agreement that they would return.”
    — Dr. Dale (43:11)
• On Apologies and Accountability:
  • “Apologies are apologies. They’re empty…This is ongoing…tensions with indigenous people within the United States.”
    — Dr. Dale (43:49)
• On Contemporary Identity:
  • “I am a Dine woman. I’m very proud to be Dine. I’m proud to know this history of my people. It is something that I carry with me and that I encourage our young people to know.”
    — Dr. Dale (48:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:04 | Dr. Dale introduces herself, Dine origins | | 06:28 | Four sacred mountains and homeland explained | | 08:15 | Navajo Nation’s population and land base | | 11:19 | Historical context and start of U.S. campaign | | 15:19 | U.S. forced relocation policies and westward expansion | | 21:20 | Carleton and Carson’s roles in Navajo history | | 25:44 | Scorched earth policy and the reality of the Long Walk | | 33:04 | Siege at Canyon de Chelly and its significance | | 34:25 | Chief Manuelito and matrilineal Navajo society | | 38:06 | Conditions and trauma at Bosque Redondo | | 43:49 | Reparations, apologies, and ongoing struggles | | 47:02 | Navajo government formation and contemporary issues | | 48:50 | Language, culture, and revitalization efforts |

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Conclusion

This powerful episode highlights not only the suffering and endurance of the Navajo during the Long Walk, but also the ongoing legacy of resilience, revitalization, and sovereignty in the face of historical trauma. Dr. Dale situates the Long Walk within broader patterns of American expansion, forced Indigenous removals, and the continuing struggles of the Dine today, all the while centering Navajo memory, culture, and survival.

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For further research, Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale’s books “Reclaiming Dine,” and “The Long Walk: The Forced Exile of the Navajo” are recommended, as well as a visit to the Bosque Redondo Memorial for those seeking a deeper understanding of this chapter in American history.

Transcript

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[Narrator]

It is the morning of January 12, 1864. Snow blankets the valley floor of Canyon de Chelly in what is now the Navajo Nation of Arizona. Steep, rugged walls of red sandstone rise on either side, hiding narrow, treacherous trails, caves and ledges known only to the Dene. The only sounds are of birdsong, the rush of the river, and the hushed whispers of men and women as they wait and watch for an enemy that draws ever closer. Nearly 300 dine cling to fortress Rock, a stony outcrop commanding the canyon below. Families from all across the homeland have gathered in this place, seeking refuge from the US Army. Behind them, they have left burned villages, ruined crops, slaughtered livestock, and the bodies of those who were not able to escape. Canyon de Chelly has been the Dine since sanctuary for generations. Its towering cliffs funnel attackers into narrow approaches, exposing them to defenders above. But this is the dead of winter. Food is scarce. Supplies are dwindling. There is nowhere else to go. For now they wait, listening, the snow muffling every footfall. Fingers tighten around weapons. In a matter of hours, the US Cavalry will ride into this stone sanctuary. And what follows will open one of the darkest chapters in American history. The destruction of Dine resistance and the onset of the Long Walk of the Navajo.

[Don Wildman]

Our guest today is Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale, professor and chair of American Studies at the University of New Mexico and

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

author of the books Reclaiming Dine, the

[Don Wildman]

Legacies of Navajo Chief Manuel Ito and and Juanita, as well as the Long Walk, the Forced Exile of the Navajo. Dr. Dannettel is the former chair of the Navajo Nation Human Rights Commission. I'm Don Wildman, and this is American History hit. Hello, Jennifer. Thanks for being with us today. I really appreciate it.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Good morning yet, Don. I'm happy to be here here at

[Don Wildman]

the outset of this conversation, Jennifer, I think it's important. I think people will be curious about your ancestry, a bit of your background for context. Can you explain your family origins?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

I just introduced myself in the proper way of the Dine or the Dine people, who have one of the largest land bases within the United States and in a region that's known as the American Southwest. I am Dine. I'm originally from the great Navajo Nation, and I currently reside in Albuquerque, New Mexico, mostly because of my work at the University of New Mexico.

[Don Wildman]

Can you explain the term Dene versus Navajo? Are they interchangeable?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

People often interchange and Navajo, but they mean completely different things. Dine is a Navajo word. It means the people. Another word for ourselves is earth, surface people and five fingered ones. And we consider ourselves or talk about ourselves as the grandchildren of of the holy people. Navajo is often seen as a term that that was how we were recognized by outsiders, including the Spaniards, the Mexicans,

[Don Wildman]

and the Americans, the traditional homelands, as I understand it, and help me if I'm saying this wrong, Dine are marked by four sacred mountains that stretch across modern day Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona, generally speaking, is that correct?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Yes. Navajo country. We recognize one region which is within the San Juan river region, and it's called the Netra. And the Netra means the area or the region where the creation of the Navajo people took place. It's the journey from the first world to the second, to the third, and to the fourth, which is this world. So that term is Denetka, Denepikeya, which means the people's land, but has a more layered meaning in our own language. In Dinepezogencompasses the land between the four sacred mountains. And so that is Sisna Djinna to the east, Tsoh, which is called Mount Taylor above Grants, New Mexico. Docosli, which is the San Francisco Peaks in Arizona, and the Benza, which is the La Plata Mountains in Durango, Colorado, our original homeland was really quite vast and also extended into Colorado as well.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. So many of these words that we modern Americans toss around are such umbrella terms to simplify the issues of so many peoples within these groups. And. And I'm sure that's the case when I toss off Navajo as if I know what I'm talking about, and I don't. The Navajo Nation is, as I understand, the largest reservation in the United States, spans large parts of Arizona, Utah and New Mexico. The capital, if you will, of the Navajo Nation is Window Rock, Arizona. Am I right about that?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

That's. That's correct. We do have. The Navajo people do have the largest land base of any indigenous nation within the United States. I don't know right now if we in population, we surpass the Cherokee. Our latest population count is about 400, 400,000 people. And about half of the Dine live off of the Navajo Nation.

[Don Wildman]

I mean, we can recognize, you know, typically the famous landmarks of the Southwest. The Monument Valley, Antelope Canyon. This is extraordinary geography that these. That your people have come from and have existed on for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Tell me about the lifestyle of the Dine people. We think of this land. I just want to debunk any thoughts that this is any kind of barren world. This is Southwest, is by many people's definition, desert. Quite the opposite. Right.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Well, you know, here in the American Southwest, we were really experiencing a drought. We've been in this drought for Several years. And it's just really hot. It feels barren. And the Navajo Nation especially is experiencing drought. And so these are the conditions that our people are living under right now. And yet there is just incredible beauty in the landscape. You mentioned Monument Valley. During the first week of July, I was up in Bluff, Utah, which border in southern Utah, and that borders Navajo nation just like 13 miles, less than 13 miles. And the landscape, the mountain buttes, the shades, the colors, is just absolutely exquisite. And so you really have to experience it to come here and to see just how spectacular the delenne is and the landscape is. If you want an image, you might go to Dybgay's. She's a fiber artist. Look at her textiles and you will get a sense of the absolute beauty of the landscape.

[Don Wildman]

And of course, in other times, especially before this drought and so forth, what was traditionally these lands? Herding of sheep was done, but there were fields of corn, orchards, other forms of agriculture. Much of what we'll discuss in this story is about the the US Government coming in and damaging those lands and making a lot of that go away. I expect many folks listening will be unfamiliar with the story. So first things first, when we talk about the Long Walk of the Navajo, this is a tragedy akin to other forest marches of. Of native ancestral lands. Trail of tear migration. Tears migrations, which we've done past episodes on, have a very similar story to tell. The so called Long Walk of the Navajo is the same. Where were the ancestral lands that they were being walked forced off of?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Okay, so first let me just preface by saying that I am a historian. I have expertise in Indigenous histories, Indigenous studies with a concentration or focus in Dene history. I am the first Dine to earn a PhD in history, which I did at a nearby university, Northern Arizona University near the Navajo Nation in Flagstaff, which is just below the sacred mountain of De Grosli, the western mountain. So a big part of my work, my research, of course, dealt with the American war on my people, which began, commenced in the summer of 1863. This is July 2026. And so, you know, I often think about the past and I think about the time, of what the land must have looked like and what my people have been doing at that time. And so right now, it's just really, really hot. And you think about what my people were going through during that time. My book, which came out of my graduate research, is what's important to that story. The ne story and Dine history is what happened with the American war on Navajo people, which began in 1863. And so, you know, as Don, you said you have spoken or you have had other guest speakers come and talk about the wars on indigenous people with here within the United States. And so the mid 19th century into the late 19th century were really pivotal to the conquests of indigenous people. People are familiar with the Trail of Tears, which was the indigenous peoples of the southeastern United States being forcibly marched to what was called Indian Territory in what is now known as Oklahoma. And so that's the period in which indigenous people were really doing the best that they could to defend themselves against the onslaught of American imperialism. And so my people also experienced the same thing. And so for us, the war against my people began in earnest in 1863 with the orders of James Carleton, who issued orders that Kit Carson, as he was known out here, was to begin the scorch and burn campaign against Navajo people. And so Canyon de Chelly was considered the stronghold of the Navajo people. And so the campaign, the war against Navajo people began in what we call and which in English is known as Canyon de Chelly. So that was the, in the summer of 1863, the beginning of the war against my people.

[Don Wildman]

I want to put this in some sort of historical context for anyone who's new to this story. Wars against Native Americans have been going on for centuries at this point. Certainly what is most famously known as the Trail of Tears and those kinds of forced marches happens from the early decades of the 1800s onwards. So we're in the latter phase of this at this point, which has a lot to do with geography and the moving of the so called called frontier. But the other thing that's happening at this point is the US Mexican War which happens in 1846-48. And suddenly this whole area trades hands, goes from Mexico to the Americans. This period comes after the US Mexico War, which happens back in the 1840s. And now we have this settler expansion issue going on right at this point. So this is really about exploiting the region's natural resources and the US government setting up shop on this land. Right.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

So in the 19th century, the United States solution to what they considered always the Indian problem was forced relocation in the face of movements of land hungry settlers. And so in the mid to the late 19th century you have dreams of the wealth of California. And so Navajo country lies right in the pathway of these dreams of settling the west and going to California. Our warriors were considered, you know, they were just able defenders of their land. And their people, the Abajo people, were considered a military might and so the establishment of the first two American forts after 1846 was Fort Wingate, which is still called Fort Wingate, which is about 10 miles west of the Bordertown Gallup, New Mexico. What's called Fort Defiance now, but it was called something else during this period. And I'm just spacing on what it was called. But those two forts established were American declarations that Navajo land was to be occupied and claimed by the Americans. And So in the 1850s, my great, great, great grandfather, who in the history American histories is known as Manuelito by his Mexican name, was a war chief. And he was one of the headmen or leaders who defended the land and protected the people against first the Mexican and then against American invasion. The establishment of the fort called Fort Defiance now was actually attacked by Manuelito and his men as an effort to get the Americans out of Navajo country. They failed in that attempt. But I think that symbolically it indicates the amount of Navajo resistance and the amount of Navajo defense against American invasion.

[Don Wildman]

They were, as you say, very able warriors. And we're going to talk about a very famous battle in a moment, but I want to emphasize at this point that we're basically following the same model that has been now developed by the US Forces, which is to move in, to relocate scorched earth, sometimes as part of this, a complete disturbance of the existing civilization or society that is there, moving these people to a certain place, which happened on a very big scale from the east to the West. And now we're working on that same model here. After this short break, we'll be back to talk about how this works and the battle that it leads to.

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[Don Wildman]

We're back with Professor Jennifer Dinette Dale, professor and Chair of American Studies at the University of New Mexico. Jennifer, the names James Carlton and Kit Carson figure heavily in the story. Why are they significant in the lead up to the Long walk? Did they work together?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Yes, they were actually both officers in the US Army. James Carlton was the commanding officer and he issued an order to Christopher Crick Carson, who carried out the order and began the campaign against Navajo people with a Focus on Canyon de Chelly. So they figure very much in this story about the war on Navajo people and then the subsequent surrender of Navajo people and about 12,000 Navajo people who came in as refugees to the two forts, Fort Wingate and Fort Defiance, where they were then in caravans, taken to the concentration camp which is known as the Basque Redondo Reservation outside of Fort Sumner, New Mexico territory. In our language, that place is called Huelde.

[Don Wildman]

General James Henry Carleton, central figure at this time period. He lived from 1814 to 1873, an American military officer and a driving force behind the ethnic cleansing of native peoples of the Southwest. He felt, as I suppose all of them did in those days, that Dene lands were. Were valuable resources for the US Government. That was basically how they, they looked at it. I'm, I'm fascinated by this psychological shift at the time. We look back and so many of us make excuses for these times, but there was no way around it that these guys knew what they were doing. Right. In terms of moving people off land they'd been on for centuries.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Oh, this was standard American policy.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

War on indigenous people, forced surrender and forced relocation to lands called reservations that were undesirable to American settlers.

[Don Wildman]

An example of his policy and beliefs about the treatment and government's relationship with indigenous peoples. He writes on October 12, 1862, to Kit Carson, the other men we'll talk about in a moment, all Indian men of that tribe. He's talking about the Mescalero Apache are to be killed whenever and wherever you find them. The women and children will not be harmed, but you will take them prisoner and feed them at Fort Stanton. It was pretty brutal. I mean, it was very brutal. And that was the attitude of this, this time. Christopher Carson, known as Kit Carson, lived from 1809 to 1868. He was what was called an Indian agent, and he was an army officer. Explain his background and what role he will play in this story.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

You know, Kit Carson is a lightning rod. He is for Americans who are apologists for the treatment of indigenous people tend to paint him as well as James Carlton, as well intentioned Carlton, a humanitarian of their times. And that you can't fault them for the time period that they lived in. That kind of positioning of Carleton and Carson fails to recognize and to acknowledge the violence against indigenous people, which is American history.

[Don Wildman]

During the Civil War, Carson led a regiment of Union soldiers to defeat Confederates in New Mexico. I guess that's what brought him out in this way.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

You know, you have the American War, the Civil War and That's happening like right before the war on Navajo people. And actually the Americans left because they had to deal with the American South. But then after that, they come back, and that in full force, began to force the surrender of Navajo people in late 1863.

[Don Wildman]

By the 1860s, US forces have learned that the surest way to break native resistance is not always through combat, but through siege. Destroying crops, killing livestock, cutting off every avenue of survival. This is what's going on now. It's called, you know, it's a scorched earth policy. And that's what Carlton and Carson are pursuing here in these lands. Right.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

I think Carson's campaign was one to destroy all means of self subsistence that met the destruction of water sources, the burning of cornfields. Because this is late summer going into fall. So you have harvest, and so you have the destruction of water sources. You have the destruction of livestock, sheep, goats and horses. You have the destruction of the cornfields. And then every home, which we call Hogans HO1 were also destroyed. So the campaign against Navajo people was really to destroy all manners of subsistence. And so, you know, this is a long time ago that I did this work, particularly as a graduate student. I mean, this has been more than 40 years that I've been doing this work. And so some of the primary documents that I had been reading was about officers reports, American officers reports about how Navajo people were coming into the two forts, and that some of them literally only had a piece of cloth to cover their privates. Okay. And so they didn't have a choice. It was a matter of survival to come into the two forts, you know, and then when they came into the two forts, they were then caravans of prisoners arranged to go on what is called the Long Walk. But actually, the Long Walk is not just one long walk. There is record that there was at least 53 forced marches. The marches began in August of 1863, and the last caravan of prisoners arrived at the Bosque redondo reservation at Fort Sumner in 1866. And so you can read indigenous histories that include the Navajo people's experience that is called the Long Walk. And then you can learn about this experience through Navajo oral tradition. And so, as a historian, I've always been mindful of oral history and the oral tradition. And so a lot of the stories of this experience of our ancestors remains in the collective memory of our people. These oral stories capture what is considered objective in terms of secondary sources, in terms of primary sources that originate from non Navajo sources. The Navajo sources convey the absolute misery, humiliation Tears, heartbreak of the Navajo people when they begin the Long Walk. And the Long Walk is not just one long walk. It was 53 force marches. It also took place across three different routes from the homeland, which begin at the two military forts across the Rio Grande river outside of Albany, Albuquerque, near what is now Berlin and Las Lunas, these two small towns. Some of the caravans came through Albuquerque. Some of them went through what is now called Santa Fe, and then south to Fort Sumner. And a third route was to take the prisoners north up to Fort Union. And Fort Union is about 30 miles south of the Colorado border. And that was by far the longest route of around 450 miles. And so the oral histories, which remain very vibrant and very alive in Navajo storytelling, convey the trauma of this period and give you just what it was like during that period.

[Don Wildman]

So during this period of time, and we're in 1863 here, where these forced marches are going on, how does resistance begin to form against this?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

It's kind of hard to talk about resistance when you've had the military might of the Navajo leaders broken. You had some Navajo leaders who went to Puelte, to Basque Redondo to be with their people, to comfort them as best as they could. My great, great great grandfather, who I said was known as Manuelito, his wife, my great great great grandmother was known as Juanita, which was her Mexican name, held out until 1866. And so he surrendered in 1866, and he and his people had been reduced to. I can't remember the exact number, but it was like 34, 35 people. And that included his wife and their relatives, as well as my grandmother. And so then they were then sent to Basque Redondo. And one of the things that was just really rich for me was that I was able to find photographs of my grandparents that date from the Fort Sumner period, photographs of them 1868, all the way into the 1880s. And then after his Navajo name was Estride Ilhajin, Manuelito, he died in 1893. And the Navajo people are incarcerated at bosque Redondo for four years from late 1863 into May or June of 1868. And so the end of their incarceration with what would be the last treaty that the Navajo leaders signed with the Americans, which for Navajo people is still called the treaty of 1868, you know. And so that ended the incarceration of Navajo people. And they were. One of the agreements made was that the Navajo people would be allowed to return to their homeland, to the Nebucha and for this period, Navajo people being allowed to return to their homeland as one of the agreements under the treaty of 1868 was distinct because many indigenous people were relocated to Indian territory in what is called Oklahoma. Navajo leaders, particularly the Navajo peace leader called Barbencito, was able to negotiate a return to the homeland.

[Don Wildman]

This event at Canin de Chelly was a pivotal moment in this story, and I want to understand why. It lasts from January 12th to the 14th of 1864, and involves Carleton ordering Carson to invade this canyon, which was a central important area for these people who lived there, where they had taken refuge. Explain how this transpires and what goes on over time. We're talking about two or three days in 1864, but I imagine it's a much longer event.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Well, you know, I said that the siege against Amphibious begins in the summer of 1863. And the pivotal point was what's called Canyon de Chelly. It was the fortress of Navajo people. This was a defensive, a place of defense, and it was also a place of refuge. It's a canyon. It's a deep canyon, and it's difficult to get through because the sides of the canyon are pretty high. There's also a place in the canyon that's called Spider Rock. And Spider Woman is an important deity who came into play during this time. Spider Woman. And so they also appealed to her for protection. So managing Kit Carson and his men, which also included slavers, managed to penetrate the canyon walls. And so doing that and destroying the subsistence of people led to the surrender of Navajo people.

[Don Wildman]

Explain how your great. Is it great, great great grandfather, three greats or two? Three greats. You've mentioned your great great great grandfather, Manuelito lived 1818 to 1893. Where does he figure into this part of the story?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

I have seen, read American military reports. One always sticks in my mind in which a report says, from an officer, only until we have killed or captured many a leto will we consider the Navajo people wholly defeated. And so for us, for Navajo people, I think that kind of thought indicates just his stature as a leader and as a warrior, that they thought him so formidable that they either had to capture him or to kill him. And he was a war chief, and he led the defense very ably. You know, for a while there was a few documents that talked about him traveling with his men and his family. And of course, when we're talking about his family, we're talking about his wife's family. And so in the work that I did, that began as a graduate student because Navajo people were still a matrilineal people, which means that our society is still women centered. Who we are as Navajo people begins with our women. And so when I was doing the work, I found secondary sources about Manuelito because he figured so largely in stories of the conquest of the American West. But from my maternal grandparents, my mother's aunts and uncles, my grandparents, I found the stories of his wife, my great great great grandmother. And so I think that's one of the differences of doing history when you consider the perspective and for Navajo people, it coming from women centered networks.

[Don Wildman]

At the end of the siege, many of these folks are marched off to Bosque Redondo. And when we come back after this break, I want to discuss what happens to them there and what was life like in this place and how does it all get undone?

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[Don Wildman]

In 1864, the Denej were displaced from their lands and moved to this place called Basca Redondo in New Mexico. This is part of this large chapter of long walks. What would this experience have looked like? What were they seeing as they arrived in this place? And what was life like?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

We also, before, before we answer that question, we also have to remember that There were many dine who did not go on the forced marches. They lived in some of the most remote, difficult to get to terrain. And so you had Navajo people to the west, Navajo people in southern what is now southern Utah, who did not go on the forced marches. They hid out in the canyons and in the mountainsides. So about. It's estimated 12,000 Navajos went on the forced marches, were incarcerated at Huelde, the Basque Dando reservation. And about 8,000 survived the ordeal. Some of the first photographs of Navajo people were taken at the Basquia Redondo Reservation. And I think it's telling when the anthropologist James Ferriss, in his book on Navajo and photography, says a line that I always remember that Navajo people were not only captured with the rifle pointed at them, they were recaptured again with the lens of the camera. You know, they were shot both times. And so the first images of Navajo people come out of their incarceration at Fort Sumner. These are really difficult pictures to take to look at. I've gone to the. There's now. There was a Bosque redondo memorial at Fort Sumner that officially opened in 2005. And I often go there. My father took us, me and my three sisters, my brother, when we were children. And I didn't know where we were we were at. They would just take us on a road trip. My mom would pack a cold lunch. So when I became an adult, a young woman, I went to Fort Sumner again. And so every time I go there to Fort Sumner, to the Bosque Redondo Memorial, I think of the experiences of the Navajo people. They were there. They were incarcerated there at the same time as the Mescalero Apache who live in southern New Mexico. And so they lived in pits dug in the ground. The Pecos river runs right alongside Fort Sumner and still does. The water was not drinkable. It was alkali. And it was very difficult because they could not grow a crop. They didn't have much access to livestock. What had sustained them was the weaving of the women. They were known throughout the Southwest for their textiles. You know, these were valuable trading commodities. And so they were completely reliant on Americans for even the most basic things. People often think of fry bread as a traditional food. It is prison food. Because this was their introduction to something as now common, like coffee beans, white flour. Contractors were profited enormously because they sold cattle as beef to the army for food. For Navajo people, the rations given out to the prisoners was starvation amounts. And often when they came in for their annuities, for their Rations. They were starving and they would eat a week's worth of issue in one day because they were so hungry. They lived on the north side of this irrigation ditch which they and the Mescalero Apache prisoners had hand dug. It's called a Sika madre, which the farmers and ranchers in Fort Sumner still utilize and maintain. The prisoners lived on the north side of that for 10 miles in dugouts in the ground.

[Don Wildman]

How many people were there at this, at Bosque Redondo? How many prisoners?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

It's estimated that there was 12,000 Navajo prisoners and 8,000 returned home. That's just an estimate.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. And this is over what period of time?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Four years, from late 1863 up to June 1868.

[Don Wildman]

And the idea was to hold these people there while their land was reorganized. Right.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

This was supposed to be their reservation. This was supposed to be their. Their. Their new home. Just like the indigenous people that had been herded to Indian Territory, they were to stay here. And our leaders were very successful in terms of negotiating an agreement that they would return to their homeland. And it was really, it really was a possibility that my people would have been sent to Indian Territory at this time because that's where indigenous people were being sent.

[Don Wildman]

Has the federal government ever taken responsibility for the long walk? Has there ever been reparations or apologies at least?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

Apologies are apologies. They're empty. And they don't hold much in terms of reparations. This is ongoing conversations and sources of tensions with indigenous people within the United States and of course, right now, the US it's not any less difficult than it has ever been for indigenous people within the United States.

[Don Wildman]

I mean, in that regard. 2009, Obama signed the Native American Apology Resolution, but that did not support any legal claims that were made against the United States for these atrocities. Nonetheless, I'll read it to acknowledge a

[Narrator]

long history of official depredations and ill conceived policies by the federal government regarding Indian tribes and offer an apology to all native peoples on behalf of the United States. B. Disclaimer. Nothing in this Joint Resolution 1 authorizes and or supports any claim against the United States or two serves as a settlement of any claim against the United States.

[Don Wildman]

I'm sure that was controversial. To say that at least I'm going to inject a silly personal anecdote into this, but it's, I think, representative of something third. Third grade. I built a hogan in my New Jersey schoolroom. I was a third grader who just felt like I was having an adventure. I feel like the. The story of The Navajo people, Dine people, was very sanitized for people of my generation. I grew up in the 1960s. By the time I came along, it was a whole different story. Right? I mean, it had been worked through the mills. I never heard about this until later in life.

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

I'm 67 years old right now. I've spent more than 40 years in academia and as a graduate student, as first an undergraduate and then in a Master's and a PhD program at universities that are near Navajo land, I actually had to forge my own way through university studies because I did not have access to indigenous or Dene studies or histories. And so I had to find my way through these programs, particularly with the support and help of professors who understood what I needed to do. And so my travels in terms of study was to find the experiences of our people and give it a name that it was not given in American history. And so that's been our experiences as indigenous people. And so I want to name our experiences for what they have been under American occupation. And that our indigenous people's defense against foreign invaders is five centuries long, and that it's inhumane, it's genocidal, and it's ethnic cleansing.

[Don Wildman]

The Navajo tribal government was established in 1923 in response to oil companies coming in and drilling on that reservation. Since then, the government has expanded to over 110 local chapters. It's a very large population, right? The. The whole. The Dine population today, according to a

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

recent unofficial Census, were about 404,000. And there was a census that was taken particularly during COVID you know, and Covid, as you know, was just absolutely traumatic for indigenous people in the United States because many of our people have some of the poorest living conditions in the United States. My homeland, Navajo people struggle to have access to clean water. They struggle to have access to things that people just take for granted, like water, like electricity, you know, jobs, you know. So, yeah, it's. It's still the same. And then you mentioned 1923, that the first Navajo Council of Men was created with the partnership between oil and gas companies and the federal government. And so today the energy companies interest in Navajo land continues. And you have Navajo people in community based organizations who do their best to refute this exploitative natural resources extraction.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Jennifer, I want to talk about the

[Don Wildman]

future of this as much because obviously this is not the ending of things. This is the beginning of things. So tell us about Dine culture these days and how is that represented to the United States?

[Dr. Jennifer Dinette Dale]

You know, I am a Dine woman. I'm very proud to be Dene. I'm proud to know this history of my people. It is something that I carry with me and that I encourage our young people to know. I am a scholar and a historian who draws on community based scholarship to do my work. And so that always means involving my elders, our medicine people, our young people, our leaders, my relatives, to create stories to think about the future and what the future should look like. And so there's a lot of Navajo energies towards revitalization and renewal that's happening. And there's just on multiple layers. We have at least two generations that have lost the language. And so there's efforts to renew and revital the language that are just happening on multiple fronts. And so that's always a pleasure to see. There are people in communities that are determined that our homeland will not be wasteland, you know, and so there's that front also. And so I'm just, you know, it's always good to remember for me and for Navajo people, our origin stories of the place that. That we come from. That's what our prayers and our ceremonies and songs are about. And so I have a lot of privilege to be a part of that community, to listen and to be appreciative of who we are as Navajo people.

[Don Wildman]

Jennifer, I appreciate your time so much. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to American history hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. From mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great. But you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, please share with a friend. American History hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Thanks so much.

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