Outlaws vs the FBI: J. Edgar Hoover's G-Men

Summary

American History Hit Episode: Outlaws vs the FBI: J. Edgar Hoover's G-Men Release Date: December 19, 2024

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Introduction and Context

In this episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves into the intricate relationship between notorious American outlaws and the formidable Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) under the leadership of J. Edgar Hoover. The discussion is anchored by insights from John Oller, author of Gave Gangster Hunters: How Hoover's G Men Vanquished America's Deadliest Public Enemies. The episode explores the transformation of the FBI from a modest investigative body to a powerhouse in law enforcement, shaped profoundly by Hoover's vision and the turbulent era of the 1930s.

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The Early FBI and J. Edgar Hoover ([04:04] - [05:01])

John Oller begins by outlining the origins of the FBI, initially established as the Bureau of Investigation in 1924. Under Hoover's stewardship, the agency underwent several name changes, ultimately becoming the Federal Bureau of Investigation in 1935.

John Oller ([04:15]): "Early on, when Hoover first took over, it was kind of a sleepy federal agency. It didn't have much to do, didn't have much jurisdiction."

Initially, the FBI focused on white-collar crimes such as bank fraud, antitrust violations, and corporate fraud. The Depression era saw an influx of young, educated individuals seeking stable employment, many of whom were law or accounting graduates. However, as crime surged, particularly bank robberies by charismatic figures like John Dillinger, the FBI's role expanded dramatically.

John Oller ([05:01]): "The war on crime starts and somebody puts a tommy gun in their hands and says, go out and find and capture or kill John Dillinger."

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The Concept of the G-Man ([05:24] - [06:03])

Don Wildman probes the origins and evolution of the term "G-Man," seeking to understand its significance in the context of the FBI's growing prominence.

John Oller ([05:30]): "G Man started as a generic term for government man... but it became to be associated specifically with the FBI in the early 30s when they started going after these criminals."

The term swiftly became synonymous with FBI agents, symbolizing a new era of federal law enforcement. This period marked a shift from local policing to a more centralized and authoritative federal presence.

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The War on Crime and the Shift in FBI Operations ([07:07] - [11:10])

Oller discusses how the FBI transitioned from a largely administrative body to an active combatant against crime, mirroring the expansion of the federal government itself.

John Oller ([07:07]): "They had to find informants who could tell you where the person was, and then they would close in on him and ambush him."

The FBI's capabilities were initially limited, lacking the advanced technology and resources available today. Agents relied heavily on traditional investigative methods, such as informant networks and fingerprinting. Over time, under Hoover's direction, the FBI developed more sophisticated tools and strategies, including the expansion of their fingerprint division from a few thousand to over a million records.

John Oller ([09:03]): "They first had to learn how to fire a gun and then they had to acquire powerful weapons."

This evolution was pivotal in enabling the FBI to track and apprehend high-profile criminals who previously evaded capture by exploiting jurisdictional loopholes.

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The Lindbergh Kidnapping and the Lindbergh Law ([13:48] - [15:04])

A significant highlight of the episode is the discussion of the Lindbergh kidnapping case, a watershed moment for the FBI.

John Oller ([14:00]): "After the Lindbergh baby turned up dead a few weeks later, Congress got busy and passed a federal kidnapping law, which made kidnapping a federal crime and gave the FBI jurisdiction to cross state lines and go after kidnappers."

Charles Lindbergh's infant son was abducted in 1932, leading to a nationwide manhunt. Although the FBI's role was initially limited due to jurisdictional constraints, the high-profile nature of the case spurred legislative changes. The subsequent Lindbergh Law empowered the FBI to handle kidnappings, significantly broadening its mandate and operational scope.

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Hoover's Legacy and the Public Perception of the FBI ([15:31] - [23:28])

Oller and Wildman explore the enduring impact of Hoover's leadership on the FBI's image and functionality. Hoover meticulously cultivated the FBI's public persona, often overshadowing his agents to maintain centralized control.

John Oller ([25:09]): "Hoover wanted to be the public face of the FBI and to be associated with it."

This strategy led to the agency's agents remaining largely anonymous, fostering an aura of mystery and authority around the FBI. The pursuit and eventual capture of John Dillinger became a defining moment for the agency, elevating its status in the public eye.

John Oller ([25:16]): "He would always say, the night we got Dillinger."

Hoover's obsession with expanding the FBI's power extended beyond combating crime. During subsequent decades, the agency took on roles in counter-espionage, anti-communism, and surveillance of political activists, reflecting the shifting priorities of the United States.

John Oller ([21:55]): "In the 30s you had the public enemies, so he made it his mission to subdue them... in the 50s, he really went after communists in the federal government."

The episode also touches upon the internal politics within the FBI, notably Hoover's strained relationship with agents like Melvin Purvis, who briefly garnered public acclaim for capturing top criminals before falling out of favor with Hoover.

John Oller ([25:09]): "Hoover became very jealous. Hoover had groomed him... but Purvis fell out of favor and Hoover basically hounded him out of the FBI."

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Conclusion and Takeaways ([26:04] - [27:22])

As the episode concludes, Oller reflects on the human element behind the FBI's success, highlighting the dedication and resilience of the agents who operated under Hoover's command.

John Oller ([26:30]): "It's a story of how fairly ordinary people thrust into extraordinary circumstances can accomplish extraordinary things."

The narrative underscores the transformation of the FBI into a cornerstone of American law enforcement, pivotal in establishing a sense of security and order during a tumultuous period in history.

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Key Insights and Reflections

• Transformation Under Leadership: J. Edgar Hoover's tenure was instrumental in reshaping the FBI from a minor bureau into a dominant federal agency.

• G-Man Archetype: The creation and popularization of the "G-Man" solidified the FBI's image as the epitome of federal law enforcement.

• Law Enforcement Evolution: The shift from local to federal policing was both a response to and a catalyst for changes in American society and governance.

• Human Stories: Behind the grand narrative are the personal tales of FBI agents who navigated the challenges of their roles, balancing ordinary lives with extraordinary duties.

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Notable Quotes

• John Oller ([05:01]): "The war on crime starts and somebody puts a tommy gun in their hands and says, go out and find and capture or kill John Dillinger."

• John Oller ([07:07]): "They first had to learn how to fire a gun and then they had to acquire powerful weapons."

• John Oller ([13:48]): "After the Lindbergh baby turned up dead a few weeks later, Congress got busy and passed a federal kidnapping law..."

• John Oller ([25:09]): "Hoover wanted to be the public face of the FBI and to be associated with it."

• John Oller ([26:30]): "It's a story of how fairly ordinary people thrust into extraordinary circumstances can accomplish extraordinary things."

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the FBI's rise to power, the complexities of J. Edgar Hoover's leadership, and the relentless pursuit of America's most infamous criminals. Through John Oller's meticulous research, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how the FBI became an integral part of American society, shaping the nation's history and its approach to law enforcement.

Transcript

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know, one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's Unlimited Wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a [e-mail] switch $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 per month new customers on first 3 month plan only taxes and fees extra speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited. See mintmobile.com for details.

[Don Wildman]

Acast powers the World's best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Eden Scher.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And I'm Brock Ciarlelli.

[John Oller]

We played best friends on the Middle.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And became best friends in real life. We're here to rewatch the Middle with all of you. Each week we'll recap an episode with behind the scenes stories, guest interviews, and what we think now, many years later. There's a lot to dive into. So let's get to midd.

[Don Wildman]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com March 1934 the frames of a newsreel flicker to life in this dark theater. An FBI Most Wanted poster projects upon the screen, offering $5,000 for information leading to the arrest of the murderous bank robber John Dillinger. $10,000 if you bring him in yourself. The footage cuts to Dillinger standing with his captors at Crown Point Jail in Indiana, where he's supposed to be behind bars for the killing of a police officer named O'Malley. Instead, he's chumming a cheeky smile, lowering his brow against the bright lights. The audience in the theater whoops and cheers. For them, this charismatic criminal has become an avenging hero, stealing from the fat cat banks that have taken so much money from Americans in these depression years. On screen, the law enforcement authorities who claim to be sending Dillinger to the electric chair crowd in for a photo op with their favorite crook. Dillinger will once again escape his bonds and make a run for it, this time in the local sheriff's own car, crossing state lines. But that puts him in the crosshairs of a more formidable foe, the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The FBI. J. Edgar Hoover and his G Men on the case and hot on Dillinger's trail. Good day, glad and grateful you're listening. I'm Don Wildman, and this is American History hit. We have done a number of episodes on the series on various angles of the FBI. See past episodes of our outlaw subseries covering the lives of John Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde, among others still on the horizon. We've also described in detail the career of J. Edgar Hoover. But how the original Bureau of Investigation became the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a very specific tale newly told in a book released last month entitled Gave Gangster Hunters How Hoover's G Men Vanquished America's Deadliest Public Enemies, authored by our guest today, John Aller. Greetings, John. Nice to have you.

[John Oller]

Nice to be here.

[Don Wildman]

Your book starts with an author's note that explains the basic semantics. The FBI is established as the Bureau of Investigation. 1924, 1933, it becomes the Division of Investigation D.O.I. a few years later, in 1935, the name officially becomes the Federal Bureau of investigation. The FBI we know today. And in all three iterations over a period of 48 years, from the beginning to 1972, it's led by one man, J. Edgar Hoover. Let's go back to the beginning, when the Bureau of Investigation came into being. 1924. What was its function and how did it differ from what it becomes?

[John Oller]

Well, early on, when Hoover first took over, it was kind of a sleepy federal agency. It didn't have much to do, didn't have much jurisdiction. Mostly investigated things like bank fraud and antitrust violations and corporate fraud and the like. Kind of white collar crime, I would call it. And most of the young agents who entered the Bureau in those years were kind of looking for a desk job, you know, carry a briefcase and push papers. That's what they thought they were getting into. It was the Depression in the early 30s, and they were looking for a decent job, decent pay. And most of them were law school graduates or accounting school graduates. And it was tough to get jobs in those fields. So they gravitated to the FBI and said, hey, this seems like a good gig. And then all of a sudden the war on crime starts and somebody puts a tommy gun in their hands and says, go out and find and capture or kill John Dillinger. Many of these guys had never shot a weapon before. They didn't know how to handle a gun.

[Don Wildman]

In so many ways, the FBI. The development of the FBI mirrors or parallels the development of the federal government. The expansion of the federal government, but also the expansion of J. Edgar Hoover in so many ways. Tell me about the notion of the G Man. I mean, that's the famous term, G man. Government man would have been a new concept in the 1920s. I mean, really, when the Federal government was so much less a part of the average American lifestyle.

[John Oller]

Yeah, G Man started as a generic term for government man, all sorts of federal bureaucrats. But it became to be associated specifically with the FBI in the early 30s when they started going after these criminals. And there was a famous, maybe apocryphal story about how one of the outlaws named Machine Gun Kelly not the rap artist, but a criminal back then was captured by the FBI and supposedly shouted out, don't shoot G Man. Now, I don't think he actually said that, but that became the story. And the term GMAN then became synonymous with FBI men.

[Don Wildman]

What was Hoover looking for in a G Man? What was his archetype?

[John Oller]

First of all, young. They had to be between 25 and 35. He wanted all American boy types who had integrity and couldn't be bought. Many local cops back then were on the take. So he wanted men first and foremost who would not be subject to bribery. They came from mostly middle class backgrounds, maybe slightly upper middle class, certainly not Ivy League types. He didn't like those types. They had to be slender or athletic, even though Hoover himself didn't fit that description. Most of them were law school graduates or accounting school, business school graduates. It wasn't a ironclad rule because he did end up taking some agents from sort of Southwestern police departments and the like. By and large, they were younger, educated, morally upright, shined shoes, crisp white shirt, business suit, fedora hat, not much facial hair, maybe a mustache, but certainly no beards.

[Don Wildman]

I mean, in the midst of your answer, you say the thing that really sticks out to me, which is this was an agency that needed to sort of fly above what was the understanding of state and local policing. And this was necessary at a time when the federal government is becoming more and more respected or at least larger and larger. After World War I, it's a really interesting shift in America as reflected in its policing.

[John Oller]

Really, the expansion of the FBI was part of the New Deal expansion. I mean, Franklin Roosevelt, the President, was very much in favor of federalizing law enforcement to give the FBI jurisdiction that it had lacked previously over such things as killing a federal officer, which was not a federal crime as late as 1933. Taking stolen goods across state lines was not a federal crime at the time. Kidnapping was not a federal crime. Murder was not a federal crime. And robbing a bank, even a federally chartered bank, was not a federal crime up through 1933, as part of the New Deal expansion, the FBI acquired all those jurisdictions beginning around 1934.

[Don Wildman]

But it was to Match all that interstate crime that was going on as well, which is kind of a new phenomenon. It used to be you could commit a crime in a state, drive across the state line and be pretty good because the next state police isn't going to be after you.

[John Oller]

Right.

[Don Wildman]

That was kind of the movie cliche. The arrival of the FBI. The expansion of the FBI prevents that from being an escape for these guys.

[John Oller]

Yes. Now they didn't have the technology. The early FBI agents didn't have to have near the resources and technology that you think of the FBI having today. You know, they didn't have SWAT team gear, they didn't have helicopters swarming overhead. They couldn't track cell phones, they couldn't track, you know, credit card purchases, things like that. A lot of it was gumshoe work. Now they did have fingerprinting, but a lot of it was just legwork and by the field agents.

[Don Wildman]

Right. And that's interesting because that was Hoover's original job was this sort of detailed clerk work that he was doing in, in D.C. yeah, he that same sensibility to this new federal bureau which can do a more forensic approach to investigations that perhaps state police aren't used to doing.

[John Oller]

Yeah, he developed this huge fingerprint division in Washington and build it up from a few thousand prints to over a million in just a few years.

[Don Wildman]

But it really is the war on crime which is characterized by these bank robbers, the Bonnie Clyde's, the John Dillingers that really, really motivates the more aggressive FBI that begins to grow through the 20th century. How do they make that shift from being those clerical, forensic shiny shoe guys to being a more well equipped for this kind of era of crime.

[John Oller]

They first had to learn how to fire a gun and then they had to acquire powerful weapons. The outlaws had much more powerful weapons than the FBI. Originally the Tommy gun which you see in all the 1930s gangster movies. They had the Browning automatic rifle or bar that was favored by Clyde Barrow. And these were very powerful weapons. They were legal at the time. They're no longer legal in the hands of citizens. But the FBI, you know, and in local law enforcement often were equipped only with pistols or six shooters and you know, maybe a shotgun occasionally, but. So Hoover started ordering tommy guns and bars and things like that for the FBI. Their cars were not as fast as the criminals. Early on. Dillinger drove these, you know, Essex Terraplane was his getaway vehicle. And Bonnie and Clyde had powerful Ford V8s. Law enforcement had these old Ford model as. So the FBI had to buy and obtain faster Cars. It was a gradual process. They were behind in the beginning. They made a lot of mistakes. They kind of stumbled and bumbled around at first, and then they had to adapt. And they did over the course of three or four years.

[Don Wildman]

It must have been awkward to be, you know, suddenly this new agency on the landscape. How are they finding their targets and pursuing them through the channels?

[John Oller]

The way they ended up catching most of these criminals was through informants, often a female informant who had been associated with the criminal. I mean, it was a woman in red, Anna Sage, who turned Dillinger in. It was the father of the associate who was traveling with Bonnie and Clyde, who set them up. Baby Face Nelson was informed on by a woman. Basically, you had to find an informant who could tell you where the person was, and then they would close in on him and ambush him.

[Don Wildman]

But did they flex muscle? I mean, did it automatically become that the feds are here and you have to give up your jurisdiction over this?

[John Oller]

Depending on the local officer, but often the local law enforcement officer, the county sheriff or whatever, was very jealous of these tenderfoots coming in with federal badges and was often reluctant to share power with them. The other thing is sometimes the FBI's presence interfered with the locals ability to remain on the take from the criminals, which many locals were. So it was an awkward relationship in the beginning.

[Don Wildman]

It's funny, as we're talking, my mind is automatically going to these movie scenes. Like there have been those scenes in the movies where the state guys are like, get out of here. This is a. You know, and then there's the shiny shoe FBI. All these archetypal pictures of the FBI. Yeah, that's because this story has been sold so well through the media so popularly. And Hoover had a lot to do with that.

[John Oller]

Well, you know, you see it even in more recent times, the Fugitive, where Tommy Lee Jones is with, I think, the U.S. marshals, and he comes in and takes over the investigation from the locals. And they kind of resent it. And he says, I don't care. You know, I'm running things. The FBI didn't quite have that clout in early 30s. It took them some time to be accepted as the premier law enforcement agency in the country, which for all its critics, it still is. You know, it was really in the 30s that it gave birth to the modern FBI.

[Don Wildman]

An important chapter in the book involves the Lindbergh Law and what happened with the Lindbergh kidnapping, which many Americans today, younger generations, really don't know. How big a deal that really was. We're talking about 1932 and the famous flyer Charles Lindbergh's baby is taken, toddler in those days, out of his own home. And this becomes a major international story. How does the FBI figure into this and how does it develop their role?

[John Oller]

Kidnapping was not a federal crime at the time the Lindbergh baby was snatched. It was a huge cause celeb. Charles Lindbergh was the maybe the most famous man in America outside of fdr. There was a manhunt for him. Now, the FBI did not have jurisdiction in that case. Hoover wanted to get involved, but he was kind of sidelined. His people were kind of on the sidelines during that whole investigation. He supplied some technical help, fingerprinting and the like, and some serial numbers on the ransom notes. But it was really the state of New Jersey that largely controlled that investigation. Now, after the Lindbergh baby turned up dead a few weeks later, Congress got busy and passed a federal kidnapping law, which made kidnapping a federal crime and gave the FBI jurisdiction to cross state lines and go after kidnappers. And some of the early episodes in this war on crime in the 30s were kidnappings of very wealthy businessmen, particularly a couple in Minneapolis St. Paul who were ransomed for, you know, huge sums, $100,000, $200,000, which would be well into the multi million day. That's kind of where the FBI in part earned its stripes in your writing of this book.

[Don Wildman]

I mean, whenever we've been talking about this growth of this agency, it really mirrors to me the kind of growth of the United States and the world. You know, when you think about what the United States military has done about calming down the world policing wise, the FBI is kind of the same thing domestically, isn't it? So much of the economy of this country relies on a feeling of safety and peace. The FBI gave that layer to America, didn't it?

[John Oller]

When Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde and Pretty Boy Floyd and those were running wild, there was a sense that things were out of control.

[Don Wildman]

Yes.

[John Oller]

And that the criminals had the upper hand. And a lot of innocent people died in bank robberies. You know, they'd shoot to kill and they killed a lot of cops. They killed a lot of innocent bystanders. And so there was this sense of chaos to some extent. Now, counterbalancing that, a lot of people sort of romanticized these outlaws. You know, they were robbing banks. Banks were not popular. They were the enemy. The banker was the guy in the suit who knocked on your door, you know, with the foreclosure papers to take over your farm. Or home because you hadn't paid the mortgage at least initially. You know, newsreels were big back then in movie theaters. The preview Dillinger would come on the screen and people would applaud, you know, and clap. And then some G Man would come on the screen. They would boo. Now that gets turned around a little bit. Over the next few years, as the criminals became ever more ruthless and started killing more innocents, they sort of lost their romanticism and the G Man became the guy to be admired. And there's no better illustration of that than Jimmy Cagney, who was a usually played a gangster in the late 1920s. By 1935, he starred in a movie called G Men and he was an FBI agent. So that kind of marked the switchover from the criminals being the favorites to.

[Don Wildman]

The G Men again, mirroring the federal government becoming a more prominent part of everyone's through the New Deal, as you say. And suddenly there's this federal presence in people's lives that's going to sort of settle everything down and take over. I'll be right back after this short break. Meantime, if you'd like us to cover anything specifically, if you have any ideas of subject matter we should be looking at, send us an [e-mail] we'd love to hear from you. Are you struggling to think of gifts for loved ones this Christmas? It can be so hard sometimes. This Christmas, give the gift that truly keeps on giving. A Lifetime Membership to Rosetta Stone. It's perfect for anyone looking to learn or improve their language skills. Rosetta Stone is the trusted expert with more than 30 years of experience and millions of users. And it offers 25 languages including Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean and Arabic. It's convenient and flexible learning anytime, anywhere. Learn on the go with a mobile app or at your desktop on your schedule. The lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any trips or language needs in life. That's lifetime access to all 25 language courses Rosetta Stone offers for 50% off. It's a steal. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Today. American history hit listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit www.rosettastone.com historyhit. That's 50% off for unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Am I making myself clear? Redeem your 50% off at www.rosettastone.com historyhit today for yourself or as a gift that keeps on giving.

[John Oller]

I'm Matt Lewis and I'm Dr. Eleanor Jaenega.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[John Oller]

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[Don Wildman]

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[John Oller]

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[John Oller]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. One of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's Unlimited Wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a [e-mail] switch $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 per month new customers on first 3 month plan only taxes and fees, extra speed slower above 40gb on unlimited. See mintmobile.com for details.

[Don Wildman]

How does it intersect with all the the fighting of the mafia is RICO's come out of FBI work or who kind of thinks of that?

[John Oller]

Rico come the statute I think was in the late 60s or 70s. Hoover's always been accused, I think somewhat misguidedly of denying the existence of organized crime, denying the existence of the Mafia. I think at some point he did recognize them as a force. But in the period of time that I'm talking about, the 30s, the mafia and what I'll call mobsters, big city mobsters, they were involved in prostitution, gambling, alcohol, drugs, you know, big money stuff, the Dillingers and Bonnie and Clyde's of the world. They operated mostly in the countryside. They robbed banks in small towns, maybe they hid out in the big city. But they were really kind of what I will call rural outlaws. So there was a real demarcation between the Mafia in the big cities and the rural outlaws in the countryside. And the reality is the FBI was a very small agency back then, in 30s, 300 agents. Now there's, I don't know, 30,000 or something. But they were in no position to take on the mob and mafia in New York, Detroit, Philadelphia, New Orleans, Chicago, all these towns. I mean they would not have even been able to put a dent in it. And it wasn't for decades really until the 70s and 80s, 40, 50 years for law enforcement to really crack down on the Mafia and break their back.

[Don Wildman]

In your research were you able to sort of track Hoover's Plan. He's there for so long, for almost 50 years. Is it traceable where he decides, oh, I need bigger budgets here, I need this, I need that. Or is it kind of an organic flow, organic growth?

[John Oller]

It kind of depended on what was going on in the country. So in the 30s you had the public enemies, so he made it his mission to subdue them. Late 30s, early 40s, you had a lot of Nazi saboteurs in the U.S. world War II coming. So the FBI went after the Nazi elements in the us Post war was the anti communist era and Hoover was a virulent anti communist, so he really went after communists in the federal government in the 50s, 60s was the era of campus unrest and social protest. So he went after the campus protesters and people like Martin Luther King and, you know, secretly taped them. So, you know, it's interesting to speculate as if Hoover were alive today, who he would be, you know, training his sights on. I, I never really thought about that, but it's an interesting speculation.

[Don Wildman]

Well, you bring up an important point. I mean, the FBI has gone in and out of favor in the public view throughout its entire existence, especially in the 60s, as you say, even today, some part of American society is very worried about FBI overstepping itself. It becomes a sort of tip of the iceberg of that whole mentality. But be careful what you ask for. When you start dismantling these things, something else crops up that's going to remind us why we have an FBI.

[John Oller]

Yeah, I think so. You know, it used to be that the FBI was hated by the liberals and loved by the conservatives. And it's sort of flipped around.

[Don Wildman]

Exactly. It does bring up an interesting question. I mean, we talked this entire time about J. Edgar Hoover. We never talk about any other agents. Maybe Melvin Purvis. I can think of that. Only one name. It's a fascinating aspect of that, of this agency that it's kind of so anonymous, isn't it?

[John Oller]

Yeah. And that was by design, by Hoover's design. Hoover wanted to be the public face of the FBI and to be associated with it. He got his name on the building, it's still there. And he wanted his agents to be anonymous. Partly, he said that was for their own protection because if their names became known, then they'd become targets for the criminals. I think it was mostly he was sort of a publicity hound and he didn't want anyone upstaging him. And that was Melvin Purvis's misfortune. Is that Melvin Purvis, which you're right, he's probably the only FBI man other than Hoover, whose name might be recalled today if you're, you know, into that genre of crime. He was credited, even though it's not true, he was credited with being the trigger man who shot Dillinger and who shot Pretty Boy Floyd. He didn't either. He was there, he was in charge of the operation, but he was not the actual trigger man. But anyway, he became celebrated in the press as the guy who got Dillinger, the guy who got Pretty Boy Floyd. He became very famous. Hoover became very jealous. Hoover had liked Melvin Purvis very much early on, groomed him to be a top level agent, made him the head of the Chicago field office, which was ground zero in the war on crime. But Purvis fell out of favor and Hoover basically hounded him out of the FBI and conducted a vendetta against him for many decades afterwards.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, it's really Dillinger that really sets the stage, isn't it? He is the most important case in the, in the birth of the FBI as we know it.

[John Oller]

I think so. And later in life they would ask J. Edgar Hoover, what was the highlight of your career? He would always say, the night we got Dillinger. Up until that time, Dillinger had escaped several times the FBI's clutches and had embarrassed the Bureau because he was surrounded, ambushed, and somehow he got away. And the public was saying, if they don't catch Dillinger soon, maybe we ought to return primary law enforcement to the local level. These feds don't seem to know what they're doing, but they eventually tracked Dillinger down to a theater in Chicago, got him outside the Biograph Theater, and that really catapulted Hoover and the FBI into the premier law enforcement agency in the country.

[Don Wildman]

It's a fascinating story. I mean, I really love your book. It's an exhaustive history, but it's really entertainingly accessible. And that's what's so fascinating about the history of the FBI that you can drop in anywhere really and find some sort of common ground with the story because it's so relevant to the development of modern America.

[John Oller]

Yes, yes, I agree.

[Don Wildman]

So John, having written this book, what's its main takeaway for you? What did you draw from this story yourself?

[John Oller]

You know, I really wrote the book to give some recognition to these anonymous younger agents who worked under Hoover. And you know, they didn't set out to be heroes. They didn't know what they were getting into. As I said, they wanted to be deskmen, but they got this job and it was a very, became a very dangerous job and a lot of them you might have thought would say, hey, I didn't sign up for this. I'm out of here. But they didn't. They stuck with it. They pursued their men. They got their men in the end. And it's really a story of how fairly ordinary people thrust into extraordinary circumstances can accomplish extraordinary things. And what they did was extraordinary. They brought down these criminals within two or three years and made the world, or at least the country, safer for democracy, et cetera.

[Don Wildman]

Are you thinking of one in particular when you reflect that way or not?

[John Oller]

As a group, I mean. There were several favorites. A guy named Tom McDade who I got to know, his son, who gave me a diary that McDade had written back then. It's the only diary of an FBI agent from the 30s of its type in existence, and it's very entertaining. He talks about trying to get dates with women and going to the movies and playing poker with the group. And then the next day he's out being shot at by Babyface Nelson. So later in life, he becomes a crime writer and a crime historian. He was maybe my favorite anonymous FBI agent.

[Don Wildman]

Tell me about another one. I'm curious.

[John Oller]

Jim Metcalf wanted to be a priest initially and went to Notre Dame. He was born in Germany, came over here when he was like a baby. Then he wanted to become a poet, went to night law school, put himself through law school selling insurance and the like, selling cars. Even though he didn't know how to drive a car, he had to learn how to drive a car. When he became an FBI agent, he was kind of a gentle soul, a poet, but he was right in the thick of many of the public enemies chases. He ends up leaving the FBI and becoming a poet in later life, writing a daily column of poetry for one of the Chicago newspapers.

[Don Wildman]

How fascinating. I mean, there are just thousands of those kinds of stories of those fellow men and women who are involved in this enormous effort. But they're all sort of lost by virtue of the fact that Hoover really wanted them to be anonymous, didn't he?

[John Oller]

Yes. Yes.

[Don Wildman]

Extraordinary. John Oller has studied journalism at Ohio State and was a Wall street lawyer before turning to writing. His previous books include the Swamp Fox, about the Revolutionary War figure Francis Marion, and An All American Murder about the killing of Christy Lynn Mullins, which his book helped solve. This book, what we've been discussing for the last half hour, is called Gangster How Hoover's G Men Vanquished America's Deadliest Public Enemies. Thank you, John. It's been a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much.

[John Oller]

Thank you very much.

[Don Wildman]

Hello folks. Thanks for listening to American History hit. Each week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of great content like mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share with a friend. American History hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Bye for now. Gifting is hard, but here's a hint. Give the gift of connection from US Cellular. Not sure what that means. Well, here's a slightly more specific hint. You can choose four free phones and get four lines for $90 a month from US Cellular. Your family wants new phones, so how do we know? They told us.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Don Wildman]

To wrapping presents, you're great at getting hints. So take the hint and get them. Four free phones and four lines for $90 a month. US Cellular built for us. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Eden Scher.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And I'm Brock Ciarlelli.

[John Oller]

We played best friends on the Middle.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And became best friends. We're here to rewatch the Middle with all of you. Each week we'll recap an episode with behind the scenes stories, guest interviews and what we think. Now, many years later, there's a lot to dive into. So let's get to middling.

[Don Wildman]

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