The Astors, The Gilded Age & The Building of New York

Summary

---

American History Hit

Episode: The Astors, The Gilded Age & The Building of New York

Host: Don Wildman
Guest: Katherine Howe, bestselling historian and novelist
Date: April 23, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the rise of the Astor family in New York, their pivotal influence on the city’s physical and social fabric during the so-called "Gilded Age," and the development of iconic institutions like the Waldorf Astoria. Host Don Wildman and historian Katherine Howe trace the Astor dynasty from its humble, entrepreneurial beginnings through its gilded apex, their legacy in America, and the eventual transformation and decline of their elite status. Explored are the origins and excesses of Gilded Age society, the roots of urban real estate empires, and how the Astors exemplified both ruthless capitalism and later philanthropic transformation.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Gilded Age: Definition and Context

• Origin of the Term
  • Katherine Howe explains that "The Gilded Age" was coined by Mark Twain, contrasting with a "golden age" by referring to a thin layer of gold over something base—a critique, not a celebration. [05:02]

  “The term The Gilded Age was coined by the famous American humorist Mark Twain...Because, of course, a golden age ... is of precious metal all the way through. But something that is gilded is a thin patina of gold overlaying something base.”
  —Katherine Howe [05:02]

• Periodization
  • The Gilded Age runs roughly from the post-Civil War era through the early 1900s—most strongly associated with the 1880s and 1890s, overlapping with Reconstruction. [05:31]
• Cultural Context
  • This period is marked by an explosion of wealth among a handful of families, immense social stratification, and the creation of an American high society that strove to match and surpass European aristocracy.

John Jacob Astor: Foundations of Wealth

• Immigrant Beginnings
  • John Jacob Astor was born in 1763 in Waldorf, Germany; he emigrated to America after stops in London. He carried flutes for trading and quickly identified the lucrative fur trade in the U.S.
• Sharp Business Practices
  • Astor bypassed middlemen, dealing directly with indigenous people, learning several native languages. Noted for ruthless tactics—controlling employees via company stores and using alcohol in negotiations. [09:01]
  • “Some of his trading strategies were pretty ruthless...He was not ashamed to use alcohol to try to bribe indigenous people to get better rates...”

  —Katherine Howe [09:01]

• Building a Real Estate Empire
  • Parlayed profits from the fur trade into vast Manhattan real estate holdings, recognizing the city’s growth potential. Early adopter of both grand hotels (Astor House) and tight-packed tenement housing, maximizing rents and profits through lease structures that returned property improvements to him. [09:00], [10:51], [28:13]
  • The beaver tiles in the Astor Place subway station commemorate his fur trade origin.[02:46]

Old Money vs. New Money: Myth & Marketing

• Astor Self-Promotion
  • The Astors were considered “old money” by the late 19th century, mainly through canny self-branding, even though their wealth dated back only two generations. [12:36]
• The 400 and Social Gatekeeping
  • Caroline Astor (“The Mrs. Astor”), from the older-line Schermerhorn family, became the arbiter of New York high society. With Ward McAllister, she defined “The 400”—supposedly the number of people her ballroom could hold—as the cutoff for the social elite, a concept spread through and abetted by the burgeoning gossip and fashion press. [16:40], [17:10], [19:23]

  “Caroline Astor, working together with Ward McAllister, made New York society their personal project...the 400 ostensibly came about as being the number of people who could fit in Caroline Astor's ballroom.”
  —Katherine Howe [17:10]

Astor Real Estate and the Birth of Urban Squalor

• Slumlord Profits
  • Astor’s real estate genius was to own the land, lease it to others who crammed buildings full of tenants, and then ultimately inherit the improvements—maximizing profit while dodging maintenance responsibility.
  • Profiting off the slums was paradoxically more lucrative than building middle-class housing in 19th-century Manhattan’s overcrowded, pre-modern infrastructure. [25:08], [27:56]

  "It was paradoxically, much more profitable to own a slum than it was to build...middle class housing...Because it was simply a numbers game...if he owned the underlying land, he could lease that land to a sub landlord, make that sub landlord responsible for building shoddy housing..."
  —Katherine Howe [25:08 to 27:56]

Legacy and Symbolism: The Waldorf Astoria and Social Change

• Hotels as Power Play and Innovation
  • Family disputes led to the creation of the Waldorf (by William Waldorf Astor) and Astoria (by John Jacob Astor IV, "Jack"). Despite not speaking, the cousins ultimately combined their hotels, inventing “Peacock Alley” and, in effect, the luxury catering business—shifting elite entertaining from private ballrooms to public, commercial venues. [30:24], [33:22]
  • Their partnership was so tenuous they designed the hotels to be separable if necessary. [33:57]
• Physical Legacy
  • The original hotel stood where the Empire State Building is now; the Waldorf Astoria later moved uptown as New York evolved. [19:22], [34:44]

The Astors in the 20th Century: Scandal, Philanthropy, and Decline

• Titanic and the End of an Era
  • Jack Astor died aboard the Titanic (1912), creating a media sensation and leaving his young son Vincent as heir. [36:41]
• Philanthropic Shift
  • Vincent Astor, “the last of the Astors,” liquidated much of the family real estate holdings and gave extensively to New York’s civic causes, a trend that mirrored wider Gilded Age philanthropy (Carnegies, Rockefellers, Vanderbilts). [36:41], [40:11]

  "Vincent is the first in the line of Astros to divest of real estate, partly because he discovers that he owns decrepit things that he doesn't think should function in the way that they're functioning."
  —Katherine Howe [36:41]

• End of the American Astors
  • Vincent died childless; the British Astor peerage continues, but the American dynasty's influence faded. [42:11]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the illusion of old money:
  “What mattered was not the pedigree per se. What mattered was the money.”
  — Katherine Howe [13:58]
• On Gilded Age America:
  “Caroline Astor treated throwing parties and leading New York society as a nationalist enterprise.”
  — Katherine Howe [14:36]
• On Astor’s business ruthlessness:
  “He got him coming and going.”
  — Katherine Howe, describing Astor’s lease structure [28:13]
• Astors’ connection to iconic places:
  “Astoria Queens...was named in order to try to attract Astor investment. So it is...one of the things that Anderson and I explored in the book—Astor—was the way that the word Astor eventually becomes decoupled to some degree from the family.”
  — Katherine Howe [28:40]
• Modern resonance:
  “In the second Gilded Age we’re living through, instead of bespoke couture from Paris, billionaires wear bespoke spacesuits.”
  — Katherine Howe [41:27]
• On the Gilded Age as a foil to modernity:
  “All of this Gilded Age comes crashing down in the 1900's...it all contributes to a complete redefinition of what America is and now is. Many people are clamoring to try to reach back to that.”
  — Don Wildman [41:40]

---

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Gilded Age defined: [05:02–06:24]
• John Jacob Astor’s origins and fur/real estate empires: [06:54–10:51]
• Old money vs. new money; “The 400” and Caroline Astor: [12:36–19:23]
• Rise of the Astor real estate empire and slumlord practices: [25:08–29:10]
• The Waldorf Astoria saga and family feud: [29:56–34:44]
• Jack Astor, Titanic, and the late Astors: [36:35–39:41]
• Astors' philanthropic shift and legacy: [40:11–42:11]

---

Additional Resources & Further Reading

• Katherine Howe is co-author with Anderson Cooper of the books Vanderbilt and Astor.
• Keep up with Katherine Howe via her Substack newsletter The How and the Why, website (katherinehowe.com), and on Instagram. [43:15]

---

This episode provides a vivid exploration of how a single immigrant family capitalized on the opportunities and moral ambiguities of their time, shaped New York’s skyline and society, reflected America’s evolving ideals, and ultimately mirrored the metamorphosis from ruthless acquisition to legacy philanthropy. Engaging, nuanced, and full of colorful anecdotes, it’s a must-listen for anyone fascinated by the forces that built—and upended—the Gilded Age.

Transcript

[Don Wildman]

Want to explore even more history? Sign up to History Hit, where you will discover history from around the world. From the American Revolution to prehistoric Scotland. There is plenty to discover with your subscription. You'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe to bring the Past Alive.

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings by $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary AI is transforming customer service. It's real and it works. And with fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service.

[Don Wildman]

We're seeing lots of cases where it's

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

solving up to 90% of real queries for real businesses. This includes the real world complex stuff like issuing a refund or canceling an order. And we also see it when FIN goes up against competitors. It's top of all the performance benchmarks,

[Don Wildman]

top of the G2 leaderboard, and if

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

you're not happy, we'll refund you up to a million dollars, which I think says it all.

[Don Wildman]

Check it out for yourself at FIN

[Podcast Advertiser Female Voice]

AI the to do list doesn't stop, and neither does the pressure to keep up with it if you've been running on fumes. Grow Therapy makes it easier to find care that's covered by insurance and actually built around you. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, spending, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. GROW helps you find therapy on your time, whatever challenges you're facing. Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast today to get started, that's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Don Wildman]

The story of New York's precipitous rise as a world financial center can be read in structures and symbols all over town. But in two very different corners of Manhattan, objects hidden in plain sight reveal a more specific the ascent of a single family that would leave an indelible mark on the city itself. In the opulent lobby of the newly reopened Waldorf Astoria, New York stands a clock like no other. Built for the 1893 Chicago World's Fair, its surface is crammed with meaning. Release of presidents Washington, Jackson, Harrison, Lincoln, Grant, Cleveland, alongside Queen Victoria, the Brooklyn Bridge, even scenes of American sport. Above its four faces, birds stretch their wings. At the tippy top, Lady Liberty presides. It is a nation of a sort, in miniature, gilded in gold. By contrast, far downtown on the edge of the East Village, in a dank concrete tunnel beneath the streets, are the decorative ceramic tiles of a subway station, each bearing a quaint motif, the image of a beaver in the wild. Installed high on the walls, the tiles are missed by most passengers waiting on the platform. One gleams, the others are covered in grime. Together, these objects frame the remarkable rise of one of America's most important and influential families, the Astors of New York. Greetings all. I'm Don Wildman, and today we investigate a family which was for a long time the wealthiest in America, leaders of New York society, shapers of the city and the nation. Who were the Astors? And from whence did their riches arise? And what divisive dramas came with the territory they occupied? For this we are guided by a best selling novelist and historian, Katherine Howell. Welcome to American History Hit. Katherine Howell, you've written so much about the Gilded Age. Can you define the period and why it fascinates you?

[Katherine Howell]

Well, it's actually not my definition. The Gilded Age. The term the Gilded Age was coined by the famous American humorist Mark Twain. And Mark Twain called the Gilded Age gilded in contrast to a golden age. Because, of course, a golden age like the one we associate with Elizabeth the First, is of precious metal all the way through. But something that is gilded is a thin patina of gold overlaying something base.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[Katherine Howell]

So, ironically enough, the term the Gilded Age is a criticism rather than a celebration. But from a periodicity standpoint, broadly speaking, the Gilded Age stretches from the years after the Civil War until the beginning of the Progressive Era, which is the nineteen teens. So we're talking about the early 1870s. The Civil War ended in the mid-1860s, and it took some time for the nation to start getting back on the track to recovery. So the Gilded Age overlaps with the period that we also call Reconstruction after the Civil War and extends. We probably mostly associate it with the 1880s and the 1890s. And so in the United States, the term Gilded Age is sometimes used interchangeably with the Victorian era. But of course, we don't have a Victorian era because we did not have Queen Victoria. So we're talking broadly speaking, about the last couple of decades of the 19th century.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, I think of robber barons and New York Society of Gowns and Debutante Balls and the families. Of course, the top of the society page would be the Astors, but it didn't start that way. So let's go back to the beginning. John Jacob Astor, his life runs from 1763 to 1848. German born, migrates to the US after the American Revolution, was not a wealthy man. He is following the American dream. Take us through his arrival.

[Katherine Howell]

John Jacob Astor came from a town in Germany called Waldorf, which you'll probably recognize from the name the Waldorf Astoria, which is pretty small and now known mainly for having an industry in white asparagus and also for the fact that John Jacob Astor came from there. He came carrying some flutes with him because after first. First he stopped over in London where he worked for a time helping to sell pianos. And then he journeyed over to end up eventually in New York with some flutes to trade. And having picked up the sharp tip that there was a lot of money to be made in furs. So New York at this time, if we think about the frontier or we think about the wilderness, I think we typically associate the term frontier with the West. But in John Jacob Astor the first's lifespan, the frontier began on the other side of the Hudson River. It really began in New York State. And so one of the things that made Astor such a canny business person, he married a woman who was very sharp at trading as well. They would pick up furs kind of out and about trading with people in the city. And then Astor realized that he could do a lot better if he eliminated the middleman and went fur trapping himself and went trading himself. And Aster ended up having a really good ear for languages and so he could negotiate with indigenous people on his own. He ended up speaking something like four or five indigenous languages. He was just a really sharp businessman who had a really good sense of timing. He ended up eventually being in charge of the largest fur trapping and trading kind of conglomerate in the entire country. And he was trying to expand all the way to the Pacific. In fact, the town Astoria in Oregon, which you may associate with the movie the Goonies, that's set in Astoria, Oregon, is named for John Jacob Astor because he was actually trying to establish kind of a mirror United States on the west coast where he could trade unrestrictedly with the Pacific Rim.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[Katherine Howell]

And so it's hard to overstate Astor's good timing and also Astor's ability to recognize opportunity when it arose. Now, some of his trading strategies were pretty ruthless. He would control the voyageurs who worked for him basically with company stores along the routes where they would have to do their trading with him and they'd have to buy their supplies from him. He was not ashamed to use alcohol to try to bribe indigenous people to get better rates for what he wanted. And then the other insight that John Jacob Astor had was he happened to be present just at the time when New York City was really beginning to grow. And so Astor, like a lot of the early robber barons, ended up making not one fortune, but two. His first fortune wasn't fur trapping and trading, which is why the beavers are in the Astor Place subway station. But then his second fortune came from buying up real estate. He very quickly recognized that Manhattan had a limited amount of land and he started plowing his fur trapping profits into buying up every square inch of real property that he could get in Manhattan. And he also pioneered both the hotel industry to some degree in Manhattan because he founded the Astor House, which was one of the first grand hotels in the very early 19th century, all the way downtown, not far from where modern day City hall is. But he also pioneered essentially tenement housing because he would build as close together on his lots as he possibly could and then lease to a sub landlord who was then responsible for any sort of maintenance or for building on the property or improving the property. So he, he was a ruthless, ruthless businessman.

[Don Wildman]

Yes. And we're going to get into detail about several of those things. I'm just curious about this, the ability of these guys at this time in America to have seen this future for themselves in such a full sense. Did, did he come with a plan or are these guys unfolding this as it goes along? And they realize, oh my goodness, there's more and more resource beyond firs. Now I could do real estate. It's just always curious how these super businessmen got their plan in mind back when there was so few models.

[Katherine Howell]

Well, I think some of it has to do with happy accidents of timing. I mean, in some respect we're living through a second Gilded Age now. And I think recently I read a quote by Craig Newmark, who is the founder of Craigslist, who pretty much said that he attributes a lot of his success, he's a billionaire and he attributes his success to a happy accent of timing. Would Bill Gates be Bill Gates if he hadn't been at Stanford in the early 1980s, right at the beginning of the personal computing boom? So I think a lot of it has to do with that. Certainly you have to have the capacity, but I think you have to have the timing too, because I don't know that Astor would have had the opportunity to make a fortune in real estate if he hadn't had capital. A lot of capital. And at that specific moment in time

[Don Wildman]

in Manhattan's history, in the glory days of the Hatted man, when there was a lot of product to sell. Yeah, we're going to talk about the whole family tree here and I just want to warn people, there's a lot of confusions, there's variations of the names. Astro gets all over the place. So we'll try to keep it all straight. But John Jacob Asters, the anchor of it all as far as we're concerned and we move on from there. The Astors are often called America's first old money dynasty. Can you explain the difference in those terms? Old money versus new money back then? How would that matter in America?

[Katherine Howell]

I think in some respect that is a triumph of Astro self promotion because of course, what is old in this context? So one of the books that I co wrote with Anderson Cooper was on the Vanderbilt family. And one of the things that I was surprised to learn when we started working on that book was that in the Gilded Age, the Vanderbilts, despite the fact that the Vanderbilt family arrived in North America in the 17th century, were not considered to be old money because the money itself was new. Of course, by the time we get to Caroline Astor and her iron fisted rule over New York Gilded Age society, she's considered old money. And I'm putting that in ironic scare quotes because they are two generations removed from John Jacob Astor I, which is not all that long, all things considered. So I think the question of new and old is relative in this regard.

[Don Wildman]

It's a way of controlling the society which is itself a form of power. And the connections that are there, they kind of created or at least Carolyn Schermerhorn as direct leads society into what's called the 400 during this time, during this period. But I'm fascinated by the idea. It's so much of a way the cut goes down to, did you come at the Revolution? Have you been here from the beginning?

[Katherine Howell]

Well, this is maybe the unexpected point. So, strictly speaking, the Vanderbilt family had been in North America a couple of generations longer than the Astor family had. What mattered was not the pedigree per se. What mattered was the money. Because the Vanderbilt family before Commodore Vanderbilt, Commodore Cornelius Vanderbilt, who made his money in railroads. Well, first in shipping and then in railroads. So he's another one who actually made two fortunes instead of one. Before that, the Vanderbilt family had been farmers, and so there wasn't much glamour or intrigue attached to farming.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[Katherine Howell]

Caroline Astor is a fascinating character because she. Her maiden name was Schermerhorn. She went by Lena when she was younger. And the Schermerhorns were an older family, pedigree wise, than the Astor family was. And so Caroline, in addition to having the pedigree and in addition to marrying into the money, Caroline also had a unique insight of her own. And her unique insight had to do with the formation of an American identity following the Civil War. So the question. The Civil War is an interesting dividing point along many axes. Of course, the most important axis is the liberation of enslaved people. That is the most important one. But the Civil War is the moment when we go to being the United States instead of these United States. And Caroline Astor. Yeah. Caroline Astor had the insight that they were living through a moment in which American culture was to some degree being decided upon or invented. And she saw entertainment and refinement as her venue for power and as a way to express this kind of nationalist ideal. So believe it or not, Caroline Astor treated throwing parties and leading New York society as a nationalist enterprise. This was a time when American culture was considered to be a kind of backwater or second rate to European culture. And one of Caroline Astor's projects was to change that dynamic to kind of advance American society until it was on par with Europe.

[Don Wildman]

Interesting. Yes. Another pressure on everybody was keeping up with Europe. Since we're on the subject of Caroline, let's focus on her. She's the Mrs. Astor. Her.

[Katherine Howell]

The Mrs. Astor.

[Don Wildman]

The Mrs. Astor, 1830-1908, which is really the critical period. Here. She becomes the New York society hostess. She's also known as Lena. This is another angle on society. She's from a Dutch background, of course. Schammerhorn is a Dutch name descending from those original settlers even before the Revolution. She is a true Knickerbocker, blue blood, gatekeeper of the 400. I want to talk about this 400. Where did that number come from?

[Katherine Howell]

That is an amazing number and another triumph of branding. So Caroline Astor was married to William Backhouse Astor, who was one of the grandsons of John Jacob Astor. And so he's kind of the crucial moment. William Backhouse Astoria was the generation that really starts to spend the money. I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase three generations back to the plow. But there's the generation that makes the money, the generation that grows the money, and then the generation that spends the money. And William Backhouse Astor was the spending generation. Caroline Astor, in the course of recognizing that she had this opportunity to kind of become the tastemaker or the person who got to define what qualified as the best that American culture had to offer. She had an assistant in this process, and that assistant was a man named Ward McAllister. Ward McAllister was kind of the original society walker. He was from Georgia, and he was the guy you would talk to about hiring the best chef. He traveled widely in Europe. He presented himself as the advisor who could tell you who was making the most fashionable dresses, what were all the new silhouettes in Europe, what were the most fashionable flower arrangements to have. And so Caroline Astor, working together with Ward McAllister, made New York society their personal project. And it was Ward McAllister who coined the term the 400. The 400 ostensibly came about as being the number of people who could fit in Caroline Astor's ballroom. This was when Caroline Astor's townhouse stood on 34th street and Fifth Avenue. Now, eventually, Caroline Astor's house with the famous ballroom would be knocked down and replaced with the original Astoria Hotel, which was half of the original Waldorf Astoria Hotel. And then when the original Waldorf Astoria Hotel was knocked down in 1929, it would be replaced with, do you know what?

[Don Wildman]

The Empire State Building.

[Katherine Howell]

The Empire State Building. So Caroline Astor's ballroom with the 400 was really at the beating heart of Manhattan. The number itself is really kind of arbitrary. This was a number that Ward McAllester came up with and leaked to the press. Because one of the other things that made New York society possible during the Gilded Age was the growth and expansion of, basically of the gossip press, of gossip press and fashion magazines. This was during this period that magazines began to be widely illustrated. And so you could see what outfits were fashionable and what outfits people were wearing. Think about Harper's Weekly or Godey's Ladies Book. Any of these kind of illustrated magazines. And there were gossip magazines in this time period as well, including the famous magazine Town Topics, which is a really fun read. And so Warren McAllister and Caroline Astor kind of created this sense of there being an exclusive number to which people might belong. And for years, Ward McAllister declined to name exactly who the people were on the list of 400, which was Caroline Astor's visiting list at that time period. Another invention of Ward McAllister's was an organization called the Patriarch's Balls, which which sounds very old and like it's been around since the dawn of time, but was actually a fresh new invention of Ward McAllister, which was a venue for society girls to have their debuts in society. There were family circle dancing classes that led to the Patriarchs Balls. So it was a conscious created structure that was made to look organic.

[Don Wildman]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break. This episode brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts. Ah, spring. Trees blossoming, flowers blooming, not having to defrost your fingers and toes when you get inside. Oh yeah, and spring break freedom. Warmer climbs and memories just waiting to be made. And at Best Western spring break isn't just what it used to be. It's better this spring. Stay three nights and get a $50 Best Western gift card. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions.

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Podcast Advertiser Female Voice]

The to do list doesn't stop, and neither does the pressure to keep up with it if you've been running on fumes. Grow Therapy makes it easier to find care that's covered by insurance and actually built around you. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Don Wildman]

If you love a good story, why aren't you listening to Dan Snow's History Hit Podcast? It's a show where we tell you every amazing, crazy and important thing that's ever happened in human history. From the perilous voyages of the first Polynesians, the discoveries of Captain Cook, the deadly Viking raids on Britain and Ireland, the rise and fall of the great English English kings and queens. We'll tell you how Waterloo was won, the Alamo was lost, and all the history in between, so make sure you check it out. Dan Snow's History Hit for the best true stories ever told, wherever you get your podcasts. So much of our definition of being rich in America comes from rooted in this time period. But also the contrast that we have a different kind of America that comes along in 20th century is versus this, which is such a fascinating dynamic in defining American culture, but it really is rooted in so much of this stuff. I want to find the roots of her as well by going back a little bit towards that original money. You know, where, where a lot of this came from with John Jacob Astor, we, we mentioned it already about his moving into real estate and rather controversial, at least in history, because it becomes a kind of a difficult story to understand how they did this. I mean, it's really important, I think, to talk about how the behavior of the rich at this time was not guided by the, I guess, morals or principles that we now embrace later on because we've kind of mixed it all up as culture has matured in America. But back then you could. Robert Barron is it was a predatorial world for these guys, right?

[Katherine Howell]

Absolutely.

[Don Wildman]

You grabbed as much as you could, however you could, and that was celebrated.

[Katherine Howell]

Yes. Well, so think about Astor's real estate. Think back, for instance, to perhaps you've seen the film the Gangs of New York, which is a Martin Scorsese film.

[Don Wildman]

Sure.

[Katherine Howell]

Gangs of New York is set in New York city in the 1850s and into the beginning of the 1860s in a notorious slum called the Five Points, which was a real place. It was located kind of proximate to modern day Chinatown in Manhattan. One of the things that's kind of hard to realize or hard to accept. So there are waves of immigration coming mainly from Ireland, but from Europe in the 1850s and into the 1860s, partly due to changes in political structures that were happening in Ireland, partly due to the potato famine that was happening in Ireland. And one thing that was tricky was everyone came pouring into Manhattan. And Manhattan at that time was just incredibly dense. And part of it was because we didn't really have. Manhattan is actually very hilly and it's built on really tough bedrock. And so until you have the technology to level some of those hills, it was actually very hard to expand uptown. And so you had, in the 1850s and 1860s, waves upon waves upon waves of immigrants cramming in to the same few square miles. And part of the reason that Aster was able to make so much money, it was paradoxically, much more profitable to own a slum than it was to build and own middle class housing or upper class housing, partly because it was simply a numbers game. And Astor realized that if he owned the underlying land, he could lease that land to a sub landlord, make that sub landlord responsible for building shoddy housing on it, pack in as many people as possible, and then no one had any incentive to maintain that housing, repair that housing, assure that that housing was safe from fire, assure that that housing had, you know, enough windows that had enough clean air. And so Manhattan in this time period, some neighborhoods in Manhattan in the 1850s and the 1860s had a death rate of 1 in 19, which is simply staggering. So when, when we think about squalid urban conditions, I think a lot of us think about Dickens as London. Dickens's London was much healthier a place to live than lower Manhattan than slum Manhattan in the same time period. And part of the reason was because Aster had the incentive to make as much money as possible, to wring as much money as possible out of very desperate people.

[Don Wildman]

But it's a distinction that's interesting. He's more the landowner than the building's owner. He's renting that land out to people who then build their own properties on there and manage them themselves.

[Katherine Howell]

And. Right.

[Don Wildman]

It's the. It's the classic slum landlord scenario there.

[Katherine Howell]

Yeah.

[Don Wildman]

Or not. He's. He's just the. He's the landowner. And then there are landlords.

[Katherine Howell]

But then by the way that he structured the leases, he would then own whatever properties were built on that land. So the sub landlord would build the buildings and then they would revert in their ownership back to Aster himself. So it was. It was a really. He. He got him coming and going.

[Don Wildman]

Okay, Astoria is that early in his real estate. That's later on, I would imagine. Right.

[Katherine Howell]

Which Astoria, Oregon. Or Queens Queens.

[Don Wildman]

Astoria Queens. Is that an Astor?

[Katherine Howell]

Astoria Queens, ironically enough, is not an Aster property. Astoria Queens was. I forget the original name of that neighborhood, but that was named in order to try to attract Aster investment. So it is. I know it's funnily enough, one of the things that Anderson and I explored in the book Aster was the way that the word aster eventually becomes decoupled to some degree from the family and. And starts to just mean something completely different.

[Don Wildman]

Wow.

[Katherine Howell]

And Astoria Queens is one of those examples.

[Don Wildman]

How fascinating. So, so much. You mentioned five points. So much of what made New York so squalid that the likes of a Teddy Roosevelt later on, Jacob Riis and all those guys, these reformers, are really reacting to what John Jacob Axter had set in motion earlier on.

[Katherine Howell]

Yeah, yes, exactly. I mean, and so in some ways, this might be jumping the gun in our conversation a bit, but eventually the Gilded Age starts to curdle. It begins to curdle in the 1890s and really starts to pull apart by the time we get into the 19 aughts and 19 teens, which is what we might call the Progressive Era. And part of it is because public tolerance for conspicuous consumption really starts to turn.

[Don Wildman]

You've already mentioned the famous piece of. The most famous piece of real estate in New York, which is 34th and Fifth Avenue. There sat the Waldorf Astoria Hotel. Of course, it's the site today of the Empire State Building. But the Waldorf Astoria, which later comes, you know, is moved uptown, was the product of two members of this family, John Jacob Astor IV and his cousin, William Waldorf. Can you take us through the founding of this hotel and the family dynamic?

[Katherine Howell]

Absolutely. John Jacob Astor IV was Caroline Astor's son, and he was known as Jack. And he and William Waldorf were cousins. They were first cousins, and they both ran the kind of Astor family office. And so the family office was basically the counting house where they managed all of the different properties that. That the family that the family held. And they had townhouses right next door to each other. And the funny thing about them is they did not get along. William Waldorf was, after having kind of an abortive attempt at a political career, eventually is the man who went and founded the branch of the Astors living in the United Kingdom. And so he decided he was done with New York. And one of the ways that he really showed that he was done with New York was he tore down his townhouse and built a hotel. And he named it ostensibly after the town that they came from in Germany, Waldorf. But really he named it after himself because his name was William Waldorf Astor. Now, as you can imagine, this made Caroline Astor, Jack Astor's mother, who was living in the same townhouse with him, absolutely furious, because all of a sudden, all these hoi polloi are coming in front of her house all day long. And so she and Jack couldn't quite figure out what they should do about it. And in fact, they were toying with the idea of tearing down their townhouse and building a stable so that the smell of horse manure would bother everyone who was going to and from the Waldorf Hotel. But that was before. Yes, very classy. But that was before Jack discovered how much money William was making from the Waldorf Hotel. And so they brokered an arrangement where Jack would tear down his townhouse and build the Astoria Hotel. The Waldorf Hotel and the Astoria Hotel were connected by a series of corridors, one of which was called Peacock's Alley, which was an arcade, sort of a 19th century. In the 19th century term for arcade, an arcade in which you could kind of go and display all your finery. And this is an interesting moment because this is the time when. And this happened in, I think, around 1897. And this really marks the moment when Gilded Age entertaining moves from the private realm to the public realm. In fact, they. In. In the. In the Astoria portion of the hotel, they retain a simulacra of Caroline Astor's ballroom. And so this is when we start to see debutante balls being held in the hotel or fancy dinners being held in the hotel, whereas before, much entertaining at this level would happen in the home.

[Don Wildman]

And so they invent the catering business.

[Katherine Howell]

They essentially invent the catering business. The world of fashion moves further uptown. The Astors build a very fine mansion on Fifth Avenue in the 60s, you know, and the landscape of New York City entertaining changes. But one thing that I think is amusing about the original Waldorf Astoria is that because the relationship between Jack and William was so rocky and tenuous, they made it so that at any point they could slice off the corridors and divide the hotels back into two in case they had to dissolve the business relationship between them.

[Don Wildman]

Right. It wasn't like they were suddenly getting along, these two cousins.

[Katherine Howell]

No.

[Don Wildman]

They still only talked through agents.

[Katherine Howell]

They did only talk through agents, but they also both enjoyed making a lot of money.

[Don Wildman]

Yes, exactly. We did an episode a long time ago about the hotel industry in New York. And really, so much of the money making that's in hotels roots right back to the Waldorf Astoria's first iteration and then gets to a whole nother level when they take it uptown. How does it get uptown, by the way?

[Katherine Howell]

Well, I think that it's partly a result of the stock market crash of 1929. And so the Waldorf Astoria that certainly that I grew up with was an art deco masterpiece on Park Avenue in I think it was in the 50s, it was north of Grand Central Station, and it was built in the 1930s.

[Don Wildman]

Sure. It comes out of the whole thing of tearing up Park Avenue in many different iterations, which was originally very much a park. And then suddenly there's a lot more life up there and a lot more money, and the Waldorfer story becomes what it is today. I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Podcast Advertiser Female Voice]

The to do list doesn't stop and neither does the pressure to keep up with it if you've been running on fumes. Growtherapy makes it easier to find care that's covered by insurance and actually built around you, whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th. Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Don Wildman]

KATHERINE what happened to Jack, the John Jacob Astor involved in all of this?

[Katherine Howell]

So, Jack Astor, after he tears down his townhouse and builds the Astoria Hotel and moves uptown with his mother. His mother, Caroline astor, dies in 1908, and shortly after her death, Jack lives through a scandal because he goes through a divorce and then marries his second wife, Madeleine Force Talmadge, I believe is her name, and she was a teenager. She was a friend of his daughter's and as you can imagine, the press is in a frenzy over this scandal because this was a time when divorce simply was not done. I mean, that was beginning to change at the beginning of the 20th century in this class of people, but it was still very new and very scandalous. And so Jack spirits his new bride away to Europe to escape all the press scrutiny. And when they feel like the press scrutiny has finally started to die down, they've been away for a few months, they arrange to sail back to New York because Madeline discovers that she's going to have a baby and she wants to have her baby back in New York. So they buy very expensive first class tickets on the finest ship ever to plow the seas. And as you probably guess, where this is going, that ship is the Titanic. Jack Astor ends up going down on the Titanic. He is the wealthiest person, the wealthiest passenger among many wealthy and prominent passengers who goes down on Titanic. Madeleine ends up being rescued, has her Titanic baby safely once she's back in New York. He was also named John Jacob Astor, but he goes by Jakey. And it's at that point when the head of the Astor family becomes Vincent Astor. And poor Vincent is only about 21 years old when he's asked to step into these large shoes that have been vacated by his father Jack. And Vincent winds up being kind of the last of the Astors. It's Vincent who begins to actually give a lot of the Astor money away. Vincent, despite being by all accounts a somewhat difficult person, he nevertheless leaves a huge mark of philanthropy all across New York. And it's also largely through the efforts of his last wife, Brooke Astor. Brooke Astor, who passed away only a few years ago. So the fact that you see the Astro name all over the New York Public Library, all over the zoo, all over museums and institutions, all over New York, all over playgrounds. Vincent is the first in the line of Astros to divest of real estate, partly because he discovers that he owns decrepit things that he doesn't think should function in the way that they're functioning. Yeah, and so that is really the kind of the end of the American asters as we know them.

[Don Wildman]

Yes. And earlier on you mentioned the curdling of the Gilded Age society. In a way, the Astor family is really representative of the sort of changes in American society even at the highest levels of its elites. You know, in that this name goes from being, you know, this slumlord beginnings, this predatorial idea of capitalism towards a philanthropic one, and they really lead the way in redefining it. That role for the richest families, isn't it?

[Katherine Howell]

I mean, they certainly by the time we get to Vincent, but of course, Vincent doesn't come along until the 20th century. There are many other Carnegies, for instance, found libraries all throughout the Midwest. The Rockefellers, the only Gilded Age family who managed to hold onto their money. The Rockefellers are responsible for arts funding and through their various foundations and philanthropic efforts. Even the Vanderbilts, the least philanthropic of all, the robber barons. Arguably, Commodore Vanderbilt ends up giving his money to the university that bears his name, Vanderbilt University, through the efforts of his second wife.

[Don Wildman]

Was there a sense, I mean, in your studies, was there a sense back then when the height of that time period of the Gilded Age, so called, that this intensely capitalistic model, left unchecked, would build a stronger society in their mind? Was that the ideal of America as far as they were concerned?

[Katherine Howell]

I hesitate to ascribe impulses to people who are living through the past. I mean, I think that my impression is that for most of the people who were involved in this, it wasn't a matter of idealism so much as it was a matter of power. It was a matter of what can be gotten away with and to what extent.

[Don Wildman]

Interesting.

[Katherine Howell]

And in a funny way, I feel like we're seeing some of that play out in our culture now, except that in the second Gilded Age that we're living through, instead of bespoke couture from Paris, billionaires wear bespoke spacesuits.

[Don Wildman]

Yes, right. All of this Gilded Age comes crashing down in the 1900s. The rise of Teddy Roosevelt's Progressive Era policies, World War I, Great Depression, FDR's New Deal, it all contributes to a complete redefinition of what America is and now is. Many people are clamoring to try to reach back to that. Where did the Astors all finally end up? I mean, where did that name land finally? Where are they? Did they go to Levittown?

[Katherine Howell]

Well, interestingly so. Vincent Aster, so Jack's cousin William moved to England, managed through hook and crook and scattering lots of money around, managed to essentially buy himself into a peerage. And so there is a titled Astor family in the UK that traces its origins to the Astor fortunes of New York during the Gilded Age. The United States branch actually ends with Vincent. Vincent had mumps as a child which left him sterile, and so he never had any offspring. Brooke had some sons, but they were not granted any of the Astor money. And as far as I am aware, are, you know, perfectly lovely, private individual people.

[Don Wildman]

Katherine Howe is a New York Times bestselling historian and novelist. She is the co author, as mentioned with Anderson Cooper, of the books Vanderbilt and Aster, and is currently writing another what's on the horizon for you right now? And how can folks find out what's going on with that?

[Katherine Howell]

Well, people, thank you for asking. People can keep up with me on my substack, which is called the how and the why. And I've been puzzling through a new Gilded Age novel, which I'm in the process of chipping away at, albeit somewhat slowly. I'm doing some teaching and a lot of writing, so if anyone wants to keep track of me, I have a website, katherinehow.com My substack is the how and the why. And it's free and I have an Instagram.

[Don Wildman]

Excellent. Thank you for joining us. Really appreciate it.

[Katherine Howell]

Thanks for having me.

[Don Wildman]

Hey, thanks for listening to American History hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American History hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support.

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Don Wildman]

Hey, everyone.

[Katherine Howell]

Check out this guy and his bird.

[Don Wildman]

What is this, your first date?

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

Anyways, get a'@libertymutual.com or with your local agent.

[Katherine Howell]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Podcast Advertiser Male Voice]

You didn't build a business to chase missing wire transfers or to figure out why payroll didn't run or. Or to navigate things like loans, credit, or business deposits on your own. That's why there's ICCU for business. We support your whole operation with tools like payroll, merchant services, bill pay, and business lines of credit. So you and your team can get back to what you do best. Iccu. You mind the business, we'll mind the banking. Schedule a free business review today. Insured by ncua.