The Battle of Bull Run

Summary

The Battle of Bull Run: A Detailed Exploration

Introduction to The Battle of Bull Run

In the episode titled "The Battle of Bull Run," hosted by Don Wildman on the American History Hit podcast, the first major land battle of the American Civil War is thoroughly examined. Released on October 17, 2024, this episode delves into the complexities and significance of the Battle of Bull Run (also known as the First Battle of Manassas), highlighting its role in shaping the early stages of the war and its lasting impact on both the Union and Confederate forces.

Preparation and Inexperience of the Armies

Don Wildman opens the discussion by setting the scene on July 16, 1861, in Washington, D.C., where Union troops, largely inexperienced and composed of state militias, are preparing to march to confront Confederate forces. David Duncan, President of the American Battlefield Trust, emphasizes the lack of preparation on both sides:

David Duncan [03:06]: "I think the word of the day on both sides for Bull Run or First Battle of Manassas is inexperience. The Union commander, Irvin McDowell, told Abraham Lincoln, look, our troops are too green to take the field... Lincoln's reply was, well, yes, but the enemy is green also."

This exchange underscores the mutual inexperience and the optimistic yet unrealistic expectations held by both armies. Many Union volunteers enlisted for only 90 days, believing the conflict would be brief, a misconception that would soon be shattered.

Naming Conventions of the Battle

A point of confusion addressed in the episode is the dual naming of the battle—Bull Run by the Union and Manassas by the Confederates. Duncan clarifies:

David Duncan [07:11]: "In the Civil War, the Union side tended to name conflicts or battles after the nearest body of water... While the Confederates named their battles after the nearest town."

Thus, the Battle of Bull Run is referred to as the First Battle of Manassas by the Southern forces, reflecting different approaches to naming conventions.

Battle Overview and Tactics

The battle commenced on July 21, 1861, near Bull Run Creek in Fairfax and Prince William counties, Virginia. Union General Irvin McDowell aimed for a quick strike to capture Richmond, the Confederate capital. However, Confederate General Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard, described with admiration by Wildman, employed strategic positioning to counter the Union advance.

Don Wildman [08:32]: "Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard from New Orleans... He has placed his troops at Bull Run Creek to preserve the railroad and defend Richmond."

McDowell's plan involved flanking the Confederate left by sending divisions to Sudley Ford, hoping to turn Beauregard's flank. However, Confederate signal officer Edward Porter Alexander effectively communicated the Union movements, allowing Beauregard to reinforce and adapt his strategy.

Challenges During the Battle

As the battle unfolded, both armies faced significant challenges. The large size of the forces—Union with approximately 28,450 soldiers and Confederates with around 32,230—led to logistical difficulties and heightened chaos on the battlefield. With close-quarters combat and the limitations of military training, disorganization ensued.

David Duncan [18:08]: "This battle... is the largest battle ever to be fought in America up to this time... chaos just everywhere."

The episode highlights how the introduction of massed troops and synchronized movements, previously unseen in American warfare, contributed to the disorder. Friendly fire incidents and the inexperience of soldiers further exacerbated the tumult.

Aftermath and Lessons Learned

The culmination of the battle saw the Union forces, initially perceived as having the upper hand, facing a dramatic Confederate counterattack. A pivotal moment occurred at Henry Hill, where Confederate General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson earned his legendary nickname:

David Duncan [21:43]: "There stands Jackson like a stone wall."

The arrival of Confederate cavalry under J.E.B. Stuart overwhelmed the exhausted Union troops, leading to their retreat. The Union's disorganized withdrawal resulted in significant casualties—4,878 in total, with Union losses numbering 2,896 and Confederate losses 1,982.

This defeat was a wake-up call for the Union, highlighting the need for better training and organization. It set the stage for the appointment of Major General George McClellan, a meticulous drill master intent on professionalizing the Union army:

Don Wildman [24:13]: "Lincoln... realizes we have to get a lot more organized... [McClellan] plays the role of creating a professional army out of the Union."

Preservation of Battlefields

The episode transitions to a discussion on the preservation of historic battlefields, featuring insights from David Duncan of the American Battlefield Trust. Duncan underscores the ongoing challenges in preserving these sites amid modern development pressures:

David Duncan [26:06]: "We have been in fights with developers ever since... facing four major land-hungry threats: utility-scale solar farms, data centers, warehouses, and residential development."

Duncan emphasizes the importance of preserving battlefields not only as historical monuments but as educational sites that inspire appreciation for America's history and liberties:

David Duncan [28:42]: "We want to have an and conversation... protect our country's heritage because we believe that's pretty important to the future of our country."

Conclusion

"The Battle of Bull Run" episode on American History Hit provides a comprehensive and engaging narrative of one of the Civil War's pivotal early battles. Through expert insights and detailed recounting of events, Don Wildman and David Duncan illuminate the battle's strategic complexities, the chaos of large-scale warfare, and the enduring significance of battlefield preservation. This episode serves as an invaluable resource for history enthusiasts seeking to understand the foundational struggles that shaped the United States.

Notable Quotes

• David Duncan [03:06]: "What little preparation was done on both sides was not nearly enough... both sides... are green together."
• David Duncan [07:11]: "Union side tended to name conflicts or battles after the nearest body of water... Confederates named their battles after the nearest town."
• David Duncan [18:08]: "This battle... is the largest battle ever to be fought in America up to this time... chaos just everywhere."
• David Duncan [21:43]: "There stands Jackson like a stone wall."
• Don Wildman [24:13]: "Lincoln... realizes we have to get a lot more organized... [McClellan] plays the role of creating a professional army out of the Union."
• David Duncan [26:06]: "We have been in fights with developers ever since... facing four major land-hungry threats: utility-scale solar farms, data centers, warehouses, and residential development."
• David Duncan [28:42]: "We want to have an and conversation... protect our country's heritage because we believe that's pretty important to the future of our country."

This structured and detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a clear understanding of the Battle of Bull Run, its significance, and the ongoing efforts to preserve its legacy.

Transcript

[Don Wildman]

Thanks for listening to American History Hit. To get all the History Hit podcasts ad free early access and bonus episodes, head over to historyhit.com subscribe or you can sign up on Apple podcasts with just one click. July 16, 1861 in the early months of the Civil War, it is hot and steaming in the Streets of Washington, D.C. residents line the sidewalks to watch their Union army of northeastern Virginia march off to do battle with the enemy. It is a ragtag all volunteer force, a conglomeration of state militia in a mix of uniforms and weaponry without much formal drill training at all. Expectation being this will be done with soon enough, they'll take the Confederate capital at Richmond and they'll teach Johnny Reb once and forever to obey the law. Then these militiamen will proudly return to the states from whence they came. But as the army departs the town, the handkerchief waving ladies now behind them, the children gaily cheering, little do they realize the many dark days and years awaiting them ahead. Hello and welcome back to American History hit. I'm Don Wildman. The first shots of the American Civil War were fired in South Carolina's Charleston harbor when on April 12, 1861, Confederate batteries opened up on federal troops still occupying Fort Sumter after months of prolonged political standoff. But while the eventual bombardment and surrender of Fort Sumter marked the official opening of warfare leading to Lincoln's Presidential proclamation calling for volunteers, it would be months before armies of the north and south would clash on the battlefield in Fairfax and Prince William counties in northeastern Virginia, a mere 30 miles southwest of Washington, D.C. that finally happened on July 21, 1861, along a river called Bull Run. A battle was undertaken that unfolded in ways that shocked and surprised both sides, ill prepared as they were for the full scale war that was about to come. There is a fine nonprofit organization in this country that works to preserve and protect the hallowed ground across our land where Americans have fought and died. It is called the American Battlefield Trust, and the president of this group joins me today to explain this first action of the Civil War. David Unduncan has been the president of the American Battlefield Trust for about four years now. He's been involved for more than 20. Pleased to meet you. Welcome, David Duncan.

[David Duncan]

Don, thank you for having me.

[Don Wildman]

It's only fitting that we begin our series on Civil War campaigns with the American Battlefield Trust. Bull Run's not the first I mentioned. Fort Sumter has received lots of new attention, with the Larson book especially, but it's Bull Run that makes both the north and south realize that this is going to be very serious and take a very long time. So let's talk about what's happened in the months running up to this battle. How have both sides prepared for this?

[David Duncan]

An interesting question, Don, because I think the case could be made that what little preparation was done on both sides was not nearly enough. I think the word of the day on both sides for Bull Run or First Battle of Manassas is inexperience. The Union commander, a gentleman named Irvin McDowell, told Abraham Lincoln, look, I'm paraphrasing, of course. Look, our troops are too green to take the field. We haven't had enough training. We don't have enough people. We're just too green. And meaning inexperienced. And Lincoln's reply was, well, yes, but the enemy is green also. We are all green together, meaning that it's time to move. There is a requirement in the country for us to take action. Most of the Union troops that enlisted right after Fort Sumter enlisted for a 90 day period. They honestly believed that a quick strike, a quick fight, 90 days, this would all be over and everybody could go home. And so that set expectations, I think a little unrealistically, as we can see in hindsight. But yeah, it was an experience.

[Don Wildman]

It's one of the first things you learn about the Civil War. Everybody thought it was going to be over real fast, especially the Union, like how could they possibly withstand us? And that real attitude, it was an attitude problem, really. Everybody was sort of out for that one time only experience, which goes for the people of Washington D.C. too, who very famously, you know, went out for a day trip to watch this interesting battle unfold. And wouldn't it be great? And. But in general, the whole campaign, if you call it that, was designed to take Richmond, which had become the capital of the Confederacy fairly recently, back in May. And so that was the general idea. Irvin McDowell you mentioned was the general. I mean, he's a very skilled practitioner. He's a West Point grad. He's a professional soldier. Lots of experience in the Mexican American War. This is going to become a big theme of the first couple years of this war for Lincoln. He's going to go through these generals, these leaders, one after another, trying to find the one that will eventually do what needs to be done, which is what they're all trying to avoid. One of the most interesting aspects of this, I'm sure for you as well, is how the military leadership divides north and South. Never mind brother against brother, it's also soldier against soldier who were formerly in the same army and had done major things together. This is underpinning everything at this point, isn't it?

[David Duncan]

Oh, absolutely. And one of the tragedies of the Civil War is that so many of them were friends in the pre war period as well, and now they're contesting, you know, in murderous ways across these battlefields against each other. But you're right, the push to Richmond was the main goal. The idea being that if you captured a city or territory, that would be sufficient enough to make the other side give up. But the Confederates realizing that rail links between areas in Virginia were critical, and it was going to be very difficult for McDowell to sustain his army if he didn't have a rail link. They knew that they were going to have to come through Manassas Junction to get to the railroads. That would make their trip to Richmond that much easier. And so.

[Don Wildman]

And that accounts for the location of this, right?

[David Duncan]

Yes, it does, very much so. And it's not like they were moving in secret. You know, these are large armies, the largest armies that had ever existed in the country before. And so there were plenty of scouts out. The Confederates were aware that McDowell's army was marching out of Washington toward what is now Centerville. It was actually Centerville, Virginia, then as well, and knew that they had to depend upon the railroads. So they had a pretty good idea they were coming toward Manassas. There was the creek Bull Run, that intervened, and there were only a couple of places where you could conveniently cross that creek. And. And so the geography really defined where this battle would be fought.

[Don Wildman]

There's a specific issue with this battle. It's named two different things. It's the Battle of Manassas, but it's also the Battle of Bull Run. Why that contradiction? What's the difference there?

[David Duncan]

Yeah, it's just a naming convention between the two sides, and it's not 100% in every case. But in the Civil War, the Union side tended to name conflicts or battles after the nearest body of water. So that's why on the Union side, it's usually referred to as the Battle of First Bull Run. There was, of course, a second Bull Run the next year. And then on the Confederate side, they named their battles after the nearest town. So, first Battle of Manassas, because Manassas was the nearest city at Antietam. Battle of Antietam in September of 1862. It's known as Antietam in the north, and the Battle of Sharpsburg, which was the nearest town in the South. And so that's generally the Naming convention that they followed.

[Don Wildman]

Just another thing to confuse us about the Civil War, isn't it?

[David Duncan]

Exactly.

[Don Wildman]

35,000 Union troops. This is easy peasy. To this day, you know, you drive out of Washington, it's a commute to get to this place. It's only, you know, 30 miles, as I say. Richmond, for that matter, is an hour and a half. It's 95 miles down the road.

[David Duncan]

Sure.

[Don Wildman]

This is all very contained and therefore underscores all their feelings about this. Like, this is a couple days of battle. We'll get to Richmond and we'll set this thing right. Unfortunately, the Confederates are under General. I love this name. The south wins in the war of names, don't they?

[David Duncan]

Yes, they do.

[Don Wildman]

Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard.

[David Duncan]

Yep, yep. You gotta say it with a little more umph, Don. It is Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard from New Orleans.

[Don Wildman]

Oh, my gosh. There you go.

[David Duncan]

What a name.

[Don Wildman]

PGT Beauregard. We usually see it said as also a very skilled practitioner. He's a little more so than McDowell. He has placed his troops in the way, as you say, at Bull Run Creek, west of Centerville. It's really about preserving the railroad, making sure that they can move north and south. But keeping these guys from Richmond is the main deal. The south under President Jefferson Davis means to deliver a blow that once and for all makes the north recognize them as a formidable enemy and a sovereign nation. This is important. They have only recently done this. The last eight months has been all about creating this sovereignty, this we are who we are kind of feeling. And it's the recognition that they will never receive, which is such an interesting soft tissue point on this whole Civil War. Bull Run is going to be their first chance to demonstrate this identity as much as their strength.

[David Duncan]

Absolutely. And I don't know that we can make too much about the challenges to Southern honor and Southern manhood. I think you mentioned the Erik Larson book recently on Fort Sumter. I just finished that last week. I thought it was Excell.

[Don Wildman]

Great book.

[David Duncan]

But he does a very, very good job of bringing that aspect of it to the fore. And that's this 19th century conception of honor that seems very, very distant to us today. But it was a real thing then, Right.

[Don Wildman]

The idea of chivalry. He does a great job of explaining that.

[David Duncan]

Right.

[Don Wildman]

To how important that really was. Oh, my God. They were really very concerned with how they looked and this.

[David Duncan]

The idea that, as I've seen written in many places, that they almost felt a certain invincibility, maybe they read a few too Many Sir Walter S. C. Scott novels and the whole romance and as you say, the chivalry, but really believed that they were militarily superior, they were better riders, they were better shots, et cetera, et cetera, which may have led to a certain level of overconfidence on their part.

[Don Wildman]

Well, certainly at the beginning of the war, that was true. The proclamation for volunteers, that is really just state militias sending their kids to Washington, D.C. where they will muster and go out and fight this war in a show of strength. They really hadn't been practiced for the battlefield.

[David Duncan]

No, not at all. And there's a great quote by a soldier. I can't remember his name, but he wrote after the battle, and we don't want to spoil the ending for everybody, but he wrote after the battle that he's a Union soldier. Not one in 50 Union soldiers had ever been in a battle before. And not one in ten knew the simplest elements of military drill. So it really was that, again, that inexperienced militia force, almost. This is a gross oversimplification, but almost playing at being soldiers. And even McDowell said they hadn't had enough training, they weren't ready to be an effective fighting force, nor were they.

[Don Wildman]

Uniformed correctly, which will play an important factor in this.

[David Duncan]

Yeah, so everything, no sort of military supply system had really come into being yet on either side. And so, yes, you had Confederates in blue uniforms and the Union soldiers in different color uniforms. And then by the end of the day, they were all dust covered, so it was hard to tell one side from the other.

[Don Wildman]

Sure, yeah. And they were fighting. Friendly fire becomes a very big part of this. So you mentioned they knew where each other were. Of course, they were observing and so forth, scouting this whole thing out. There is an important other force involved, and this is Joseph Johnson on the Confederate Army's side. You have Beauregard and McDowell facing off and approaching each other at Manassas, Bull Run. But on the side is Joseph E. Johnson, also poised. McDowell's general idea is to attack and get to Beauregard before Johnson can reinforce. That's the general tactic, right?

[David Duncan]

Yes, yes, it is. Johnston is actually out in the Shenandoah Valley and he's keeping an eye on some Union forces out that way. And the idea, yes, is absolutely the quick strike. Take care of Beauregard, brush past him, and then get on to Richmond before the Confederates can consolidate.

[Don Wildman]

And when there is a skirmish at a place called Blackburn's Ford, McDowell changes tactics, he revises his attack plan, and this stalls things for a few days. Which actually gives Johnson's force enough time to reach the battle.

[David Duncan]

Yeah, The Blackburn's Ford was July 17th. So as you say, it's some minor skirmishing. I believe James Longstreet was on the Confederate side, a name that would come to be fairly prominent for the Confederates later on. But, yes, it was a complicated plan for these green, inexperienced troops, McDowell's to try and pull off. And his delay was very detrimental to the outcome of the battle for them.

[Don Wildman]

When they finally meet on the battlefield. July 21, 1861. McDowell has advanced up Bull Run Creek. This is a small creek. I mean, basically it's there because they're using the banks for higher ground and so forth. But there's not a lot of water there. It's not a big, wide expanse. So as he's marching up this, he advances up. He crosses behind Beauregard's left flank. The synchronization does not quite match up. Confederates scout this efficiently. The Union movements are spotted, and the battle is on. Take us through as much as you can. The basics of how this morning happens. Because the Union has the upper hand in the morning.

[David Duncan]

Sure. The flanking movement from the Union forces does seek to turn the Confederate left. That's always a military doctrine that you want to try and get around the flank and hit your enemy in the flank or the rear, just because then they can't mass their firepower against you. So they. I think McDowell sends two divisions, a substantial part of his army, northward to a place called Sudley Ford. And you're correct, there's not much water in the Bull Run Creek, but the banks are steep. And so to get a lot of troops up and down and artillery as well, you need to have a fort, a place where those banks are not so steep and you can get lots of troops and guns across. So McDowell is successful in doing that. However, there's a young Confederate at the time. Signal officer, would later become one of the premier artillery officers named E.P. alexander. Edward Porter Alexander. He's among those. He's getting the information that McDowell's turning movement is working. He sends by signal flag a message to another Confederate general on the field at the stone bridge, Jubal Early. Look to your left. You are turned, essentially. And so word gets back to Beauregard that the Union forces are coming across Sudley Ford. They're now behind you. You need to rush some reinforcements to that spot. Which he did. But the mourning still goes pretty poorly for the Confederates. They're driven off a place called Matthews Hill. They're driven down into a Valley where today there's a building called the Stone House. It is still there, still part of the National Park Service. And then they rally on a place called Henry Hill, back up on another hill. And that's kind of where the rest of the afternoon takes a dramatic turn.

[Don Wildman]

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[David Duncan]

And I'm Dr. Eleanor Yonega. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, Kings and Popes who were rarely the best of friends. Murder, rebellions and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from history. Hit on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Don Wildman]

We mentioned the confusion in the battle. I mean, part of this is the close proximity. They're fighting, right? They're within 300 yards of each other. The cannon fire alone would be a nightmare. Never mind how they're going about this. And by the way, these guys aren't well trained at this.

[David Duncan]

Exactly.

[Don Wildman]

Practice. So you can only imagine everything we've talked about is now coming to play. The disorganization, people not following orders, people bolting from deserting the line. All that is part of this process, isn't it?

[David Duncan]

Oh, absolutely. I don't think chaos is too strong of a word. We have to go back and it's challenging in history, but we have to go back and forget that We've ever heard of the words Gettysburg or Vicksburg or Shiloh or Chancellorsville or the Wilderness or the Atlantic Campaign. None of that has happened. None of it is even conceived at this point. This battle, as it is unfolding is the largest battle ever to be fought in America up to this time. None of the Revolutionary War battles involve this many men. These types of movements, as you say, close quarters fighting because of the weapons that are being used, are still generally smooth bore. So you have to get close enough with mass firing to do any damage to the other side. And I think we look at how they fought then and we think, oh my gosh, that's stupid. Stand up in a straight line and blast away at each other. Well, that was the technology of the time and that's how you won battles. That and getting on an opponent's flank. So, yeah, chaos everywhere.

[Don Wildman]

One of the most confusing aspects of this. It's interesting with every battle, really. We mentioned the largeness of these armies and they really are. Union has 28,450 soldiers officially by history. Confederacy is larger, 32,230. Now these are enormous amounts of people. This is. A lot of. A lot of humanity has moved around to get here. The estimated casualties from this day are 4878, which is a relatively. I mean, that's a terrible number, of course. Union 2896. Confederate 1982. By the way, I'm reading this off the American Battlefield Trust website page, which are so helpful.

[David Duncan]

Huzzah, huzzah.

[Don Wildman]

They are very good. It's a really good guide on the statistics and numbers and the simple outline of it all.

[David Duncan]

That's battlefields.org by the way.

[Don Wildman]

Battlefields.org 5000 casualties, essentially more Union than Confederate. But all of those armies, I mean, those are enormous amounts of armies that haven't engaged or. Or got away with not getting shot or whatever. I mean, it's incredible with numbers involved.

[David Duncan]

Yeah. And again, this is the first major land battle of the Civil War. There'd been a couple of other skirmishes and West Virginia and Missouri, things like that. Actually, I should say there are battles, but nowhere near on this scale. And yes, neither side had seen this level of casualties before. And again, there's no real medical system set up to take care of this to treat these numbers of killed and wounded. And so again, chaos just everywhere. Everywhere.

[Don Wildman]

Right. I guess that's what I'm getting to is that when you have that large an army, you would think there would be a. Okay, let's pull back and try a new thing. And this would go on for another number of days. Instead, it all sort of breaks down. That's the famous takeaway from this battle, is there's just a gigantic retreat among the union. The confederates route them out. Men are running, dropping their weapons, taken off, Wagons are turning over. It's a big whole thing. The army is mixing with the civilians who had come to stand on bluffs watching over this thing. It was a big madness scene. That's the main takeaway from the battle of bull run. Confederates win and look a lot better than the union.

[David Duncan]

Well, and I think even before we get to that dramatic ending, we've got to go back to Henry hill for a moment, where one of the most famous, if not the most famous, civil war nickname was earned. And as the union forces, who throughout the morning looked like they were winning the battle, they got up to Henry hill. There was a group of virginians and some other assorted troops who had coalesced around the Virginians based on this retreat as they were fleeing the advancing union forces. And one of those Virginia brigades was led by a general named Thomas Jackson. Thomas Jonathan Jackson might not be a name that too many people know, but because of the stand that his Virginians were making on Henry hill, there was, I believe it was a georgian also named Bernard b. Who was leading, I believe, another brigade, if not a regiment. And it's a little bit of a controversy as to how exactly he meant to the comment, but the comment was essentially, there stands Jackson like a stone wall rally on the Virginians. Now, most people took that to believe, you know, he's a stone wall. He's not going anywhere. He's solid. We can rally on them. Other people have said, there stands Jackson like a stone wall. While we're getting our butts kicked, why doesn't he come forward, help us?

[Don Wildman]

And it is the arrival of jeb Stuart, James ewell Brown Stewart that really wins the day. He the cavalry has arrived within this confused mass that's happening here.

[David Duncan]

Literally. Yes.

[Don Wildman]

And at that point, yeah, the federals retreat.

[David Duncan]

It's also that those railroads have come into play and that Johnston has been shuttling troops almost constantly to the battlefield, using the railroad for the first time. So that while the union forces are dropping and they're enduring casualties, you know, again, total of about 1600 killed or wounded during the course of the battle. The confederates are able using interior lines to replace many of their soldiers. And then, as you say that, the coup de grace, literally, the cavalry has arrived under jeb Stuart and That just throws the union efforts again. These guys are tired. First time they've ever done this. They've been fighting all day. Things are now not going well. Their friends are dropping all around them. And here come these guys on horses, you know, thundering across the battlefield, waving sabers. And I don't know how many of us could withstand that type of a shock.

[Don Wildman]

So I'd be out of there at the first sound of gunfire. For my part, I hate to admit it, but that's actually a serious takeaway from this, is how hard this is going to become and how the Union, Lincoln on down the line realize, oh, we have to get a lot more organized, and we have to train our men a lot more carefully. And he brings in George McClellan. Major General George McClellan, who is known for this. He's a. He's a drill master, and he actually faults in that direction. He's. He's too much of one, as it turns out. But he does play that role of creating a professional army out of the Union.

[David Duncan]

Absolutely. And yes, McClellan achieves the reputation later of being far too cautious, far too careful with his army. At one point after the battle of Antietam, Abraham Lincoln will ask General McClellan, well, if you're not going to do anything with the army, may I borrow it for a while? But again, yes. Following this very restricted time period right after the Battle of Manassas, McClellan takes that lesson that they weren't ready. And if you're not ready and you lead an army onto a battlefield, it's not going to go well. And so he wants to make sure that every button is polished, every boot lace is tied, every horse is fed to their fullest capacity, and every cartridge box is filled with the requisite 40 cartridges. And he's not going to move until that happens.

[Don Wildman]

Dave, we met at an event a few months ago on the site at bull run, thrown by the American battlefield trust and the advocates for preserving the land there. It was one of the first times I've learned about how many of these battlefields across the country are under threat of development. Of course, they're all closer to cities than in the old days, they were farmland, but of course, they're now parts of suburbia. And this is a gigantic issue that the American battlefield trust has undertaken to fight.

[David Duncan]

Right, Absolutely. And, yeah, I think that's probably the biggest hurdle we face as a battlefield preservation organization that has basically been around for close to 40 years now. Most people think all of the battles or the battlefields have been preserved. You know, I've been to Gettysburg, I've been to Antietam, I've been to Manassas. It's beautiful. What do you mean it's not preserved? Well, when those parks were created, they were not able to get all of the land where the battles were fought. They got a lot of it, but they didn't get it all. And we have been in fights with developers ever since. We're facing really four major challenges these days. You know, shopping malls are kind of off the table because nobody builds those anymore. But you know, 20 years ago, 24 years ago, when I started in this business, if someone had said to me, you know, what is a utility scale solar farm? I would have said, well, that sounds like something out of science fiction or Ray Bradbury. But because of the mandates for clean energy out there, solar farm developers are looking for every open parcel of land they can find and can afford. And so that's, that's another threat. Data centers, of course, really coming out of the pandemic with the promise of same day, next day, two day delivery, warehouse, distribution centers, which have to be spread all over the place, are another threat. And to that point, Virginia Business magazine last year reported that 40% of the population of America lives within a one day car trip of Richmond, Virginia. Here we are again with the centrality of Richmond. But if you're promising that type of delivery turnaround, you have to have these things cashed all over the place. And then even with interest rates being what they've been recently with the work from home phenomenon, residential development is booming. So we've got four major very land hungry threats, really. And in the case of data centers and warehouses, some of the best capitalized industries in the world, so they're able to pay far above appraised value. And it's getting very, very difficult for us to compete.

[Don Wildman]

Well, it's the age old problem, isn't it? You have an expanding economy, a thriving nation, developing communities, and yet you have an important history to preserve. How do you reconcile the two in your mind? The many times that you must have to stand at events and shake people's hands and say, hey, these two aspects of society must get along. But how do we prioritize our history?

[David Duncan]

Absolutely, Don. And I'm always quick to say, I'm surprised I haven't said it already. We are not as an organization anti development. I want to stress that we understand people need places to live and work and shop and go to school and raise families. Absolutely understand that. What we want to do is have an and conversation, meaning that, as you just said, we can have robust economic development and protect our country's heritage because we believe that's pretty important to the future of our country. You can't know where you've come from if you don't understand your country's history. And it's not enough, as we had one county supervisor many years ago say, well, why don't you Civil War people or battlefield people, why don't you just make a movie and show that to people? You know, doesn't that work? It's not the same as going to these places and standing where the soldiers stood and experiencing the landscape, understanding what happened there.

[Don Wildman]

As a kid who was raised by a history teacher who took his kids on a camping trip every summer, and we set up in state parks near battlefields, I spent my summers walking around battlefields and looking at dioramas and the whole thing. It has a huge impact on a kid.

[David Duncan]

Yeah, my dad was a middle school history, civics, and social Studies teacher for 38 years. I'll say that again. Middle school for 38 years. I don't know how he didn't come home every night and beat us, but he didn't. He was a good man. But I grew up in the house with Shelby Foote and Bruce Catton and all those wonderful, wonderful books, and there's just nothing like the power of place. I do want to say, Don, our mission is to preserve America's unprotected, hallowed ground and then educate people about what happened there and why it matters. That's what we do. But we also have a why. We have a purpose statement that we put out there, too. And I think it's. It's vitally important. And that is to ultimately, why we exist is to inspire appreciation for America, for its history, and for the promise of personal liberty that was won for each and every one of us on these battlefields. And that's a much bigger idea, a bigger concept. We want people to go to these places, experience them, and come away inspired to be better citizens in the end.

[Don Wildman]

David N. Duncan has been the president of the American Battlefield Trust for about four years now. He's been involved for more than 20. And we certainly hope to continue telling these stories about these vital monuments and the battles that happened there in your company. I hope so. It's a great organization. I am proud of you guys for doing what you do. It's very, very difficult work, takes a long time. A lot of hours in courtrooms and so forth and. And offices. But that's the work that must be done.

[David Duncan]

Absolutely. Thank you, Don.

[Don Wildman]

Thanks for being with us. Appreciate it. Hey, thanks for listening to American History hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays, all kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American History hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support.

[David Duncan]

Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from? Like, what's the history behind bacon wrapped hot dogs? Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. Hi, I'm Maite Gomez Rejon. Our podcast Hungry for History is back. And this season we're taking an even bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history, seeing that the most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the mojito from Cuba and the pina colada from Puerto Rico. Listen to Hungry for history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.