The Confederacy: Who Was Jefferson Davis?

Summary

American History Hit: The Confederacy – Who Was Jefferson Davis?

Episode Release Date: March 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves deep into the life and legacy of Jefferson Davis, the first and only President of the Confederate States of America (CSA). Joined by Professor Aaron Sheehandin, the Fred C. Frey Professor of History at Louisiana State University, the discussion navigates the intricate phases of secession, the formation of the Confederate government, and Davis's pivotal role amid the tumultuous backdrop of the American Civil War.

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The Context: America on the Brink of Civil War

Don Wildman sets the stage by painting a vivid picture of the United States in 1861. Industrial advancements, technological innovations, and socio-political tensions are highlighted:

• Technological Progress: "Steam now powers American industry and transportation..." [02:21]
• Political Landscape: The nation is sharply divided with Abraham Lincoln inaugurated as the President of the United States, while Jefferson Davis assumes leadership in the rebellious South.

Notable Quote:

“Jefferson Davis, the first and only president of the seceded Confederate States of America. Who was this man and how did he rise to power?” [02:17]

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The Secession Process: A Phased Departure

Professor Sheehandin outlines the complex, multi-phased process of secession that led to the formation of the Confederacy:

• Initial Secessions: South Carolina leads the charge on December 20, 1860, followed by Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North Carolina. The border states—Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware—declare neutrality, creating a delicate balance for President Lincoln to maintain unity [05:05].

Notable Quote:

“Secession, I usually explain it as a kind of two-stage process.” [05:05]

• Motivations: The seceding states were apprehensive about the rise of a Republican president, fearing it would threaten the institution of slavery, whether immediately or in the long term [05:19].

Notable Quote:

“They recognize that having the federal government protect slavery provides more certainty...” [06:52]

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Formation of the Confederate Constitution: Structuring a New Nation

The Confederate Constitution was adopted on February 8, 1861, modeled after the U.S. Constitution but with significant alterations to safeguard the interests of the Southern states:

• Slavery Protections: The Confederate Constitution enshrines the protection of slavery, deviating from the U.S. system by guaranteeing it permanently [07:01].

• Government Structure: While mirroring the U.S. Constitution's three branches, the Confederacy introduces a single six-year term for the presidency, aiming to insulate the president from popular pressures [12:04].

Notable Quote:

“The Confederate Constitution embodies all of the paradoxes and ambivalences that secession itself did...” [14:58]

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Jefferson Davis: Early Life and Rise to Power

Jefferson Davis's background is meticulously examined:

• Early Years: Born in 1808 in Kentucky, Davis was the youngest of ten children and attended West Point, where he ranked 23rd out of 33 [20:02].

• Military and Political Career: Davis served in the Mexican-American War, gaining military distinction, and later became the U.S. Secretary of War under President Franklin Pierce in 1853 [24:07].

Notable Quote:

“Jefferson Davis is a very logical choice to be president given that the likelihood of war...” [30:26]

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Davis’s Presidency: Leadership Amid Crisis

Upon the secession of the Southern states, Davis was chosen as the provisional president of the Confederacy:

• Assumption of Power: Davis was selected for his administrative experience and deep understanding of military affairs, having served as Secretary of War [34:44].

• Central Authority Challenges: Despite advocating for state autonomy, Davis had to centralize authority to effectively manage the Confederate government and military, leading to internal tensions [37:08].

Notable Quote:

“One of Davis's great weaknesses is a kind of reluctance to delegate.” [33:35]

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Military Leadership and Strategic Challenges

Davis's role as Commander-in-Chief is scrutinized:

• Comparisons to Lincoln: Unlike Abraham Lincoln, who humbled himself and trusted his military leaders, Davis struggled with delegating authority, often interfering directly in military decisions [42:15].

• Appointment of Robert E. Lee: The delayed and fraught appointment of Lee highlighted Davis’s difficulties in effective military leadership [43:19].

Notable Quote:

“Davis maintains active command of kind of the military planning... and this is one of his great weaknesses.” [43:02]

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Public Perception and Communication

Davis’s inability to communicate effectively contrasted sharply with Lincoln's adeptness:

• Communication Deficits: While Lincoln engaged the public with relatable language and inspiring speeches, Davis remained overly rational and clinical, failing to galvanize the Confederate populace [47:13].

Notable Quote:

“Jefferson Davis was never able to really crack the code on that [communication].” [47:54]

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The Fall of the Confederacy and Davis’s Capture

As the war turned against the South, Davis faced insurmountable challenges:

• Appomattox and Surrender: Davis remained hopeful of a Confederate victory until Robert E. Lee’s surrender at Appomattox Court House [51:25].

• Capture and Imprisonment: Davis was captured in Georgia, parodied in Northern satire for fleeing in women's clothing, and subsequently imprisoned for two years before being released on bail [51:55].

Notable Quote:

“The Confederate Congress was never the source of ideas that the Northern Congress is for Lincoln.” [45:09]

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Legacy and the “Lost Cause” Narrative

Post-war, Davis's legacy became intertwined with the “Lost Cause” mythology:

• Lack of Atonement: Davis never acknowledged the unconstitutionality or immorality of secession, perpetuating the narrative that the Confederacy was founded on noble principles [57:03].

• Influence on Memory: His life post-imprisonment saw him contributing to the “Lost Cause” ideology, shaping Southern memory and historiography [53:50].

Notable Quote:

“He never admits that secession was either unconstitutional or wrong.” [57:18]

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Teaching the Civil War: Perspectives from the Deep South

Professor Sheehandin shares insights on educating about the Civil War:

• Modern Interpretations: He emphasizes the importance of presenting evidence-based history, countering neo-Confederate narratives, and fostering an objective understanding among students [58:22].

Notable Quote:

“We're trying to do it in an analytical way without they didn't commit that crime.” [59:14]

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Conclusion

This episode offers a thorough examination of Jefferson Davis’s role in the Confederate States of America, highlighting his administrative acumen, military shortcomings, and enduring legacy. Through insightful dialogue with Professor Sheehandin, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the complexities surrounding Davis and the broader secessionist movement, shedding light on one of America's most divisive historical figures.

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Notable Quotes Summary

1. On Secession Process:

   “Secession, I usually explain it as a kind of two-stage process.” [05:05]

2. On Constitutional Paradoxes:

   “The Confederate Constitution embodies all of the paradoxes and ambivalences that secession itself did...” [14:58]

3. On Leadership Weaknesses:

   “One of Davis's great weaknesses is a kind of reluctance to delegate.” [33:35]

4. On Communication Deficits:

   “Jefferson Davis was never able to really crack the code on that [communication].” [47:54]

5. On Legacy:

   “He never admits that secession was either unconstitutional or wrong.” [57:18]

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Further Resources

For more in-depth analysis and original research, visit Professor Aaron Sheehandin's website: AaronSheehandinWithAH.com.

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Stay tuned to American History Hit every Monday and Thursday for more immersive explorations into America’s past.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Brad]

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[Professor Aaron Sheehandin]

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[Don Wildman]

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[Professor Aaron Sheehandin]

Virginia's state capitol building is bursting at its seams. It's December 1861, and lawmakers and visitors press and jostle through crowded doorways, navigating the echoey stone halls in search of a quiet corner to prepare for meetings. Despite the chill outside, the central rotunda is sweltering, the air thick with the fetid odor of hundreds of bodies, not to mention the greasy aromas of cooked poultry, peanuts and hard boiled eggs available from food stands. Chicken bones crackle underfoot in a slick residue of tobacco spit, all of it creating a dicey walking hazard. Back in 1785, Thomas Jefferson designed this grand building for Richmond's Capitol Square, modeling it after classical Roman temples.

[Host]

But at this time, there are yet.

[Professor Aaron Sheehandin]

No front steps or legislative wings. Practically speaking, the space is too small even for its designed purpose.

[Host]

Never mind.

[Professor Aaron Sheehandin]

Now the Virginia General assembly will be sharing the structure with the first Confederate States Congress, which will use the Senate Chamber to debate the ongoing dreadful issues of slavery, secession and war.

[Host]

Greetings all. Don Wildman here, and this is American History hit. Welcome back. It's 1861. Steam now powers American industry and transportation as locomotives pull train cars to the Mississippi and just beyond. Ships can now be built to the enormous dimensions of the USS Kearsich, 200ft bow to stern. For the last two decades, folks have been communicating by telegraph, but just three years ago, the first successful transatlantic cable was sent between Europe and North America. In medicine, ether and chloroform are now being used for patients under the knife. But germ theory is not yet widely accepted. Elisha Otis has patented his brake system for elevators, making high rises a feasible reality. While American men attach very starched collars to their shirts and the most fashionable women are in hourglass dresses, constrained by corsets. All the rage. In the midst of all this, Abraham Lincoln is the newly inaugurated President of the United States. But another American president has been inaugurated as well. But this one down in the seditious south in blatant rebellion against the nation he once fought for and served, Jefferson Davis, the first and only president of the seceded Confederate States of America. Who was this man and how did he rise to power? How has this new American nation, the csa, amputated itself from its former body politic to be ruled differently? But how differently will that really be? We have Professor Aaron Sheehandin to explain it all today. He is the Fred C. Frey professor of History and Department Chair at Louisiana State University. Go Tigers has authored and edited so many publications. But particular to our conversation today, a companion to the US Civil War as well as the Civil War the final Year told by those who lived it. Good day, Professor Xiandin, Great to meet you again. You were on a previous podcast of us so long ago.

[Brad]

I was. It's good to see you again and I'm glad to be back here today. Thanks.

[Host]

Let's begin with the process of secession. Very basic stuff here. What happens in several phases through the late part of 1860 and into 61, we have eventually 11 states seceding. I'll read the list. South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina. It's the sec, basically the border states of Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware all declare their neutrality and this will be a delicate balancing act for Lincoln, keeping them in the Union. December 20, 1860. South Carolina kicks things off first and then the process unfolds through the following spring after Fort Sumter. Can you explain how this unfolded? Why? Why such a phased process?

[Brad]

The important thing for people to remember is that secession, I usually explain it as a kind of two stage process. So South Carolina, as you identified, secedes first in December of 1860 in response to Lincoln's election.

[Guest]

Apprehensive that the rise of a Republican president is going to spell the end.

[Brad]

Of slavery, whether immediately or over the long term.

[Guest]

And the Gulf south states.

[Brad]

So beginning from South Carolina and moving west, Georgia and Florida and Alabama and Mississippi and Louisiana, Texas secede all by the the sort of end of January 1861. The Confederacy is created 2-4-1861. And then there's another kind of Very.

[Guest]

Pregnant moment of anticipation where the rest.

[Brad]

Of the slave states, and you name.

[Guest]

Them as border states, but it's important.

[Brad]

To remember that Kentucky, Missouri, Delaware and Maryland were all slave states.

[Guest]

And those four, plus the upper south.

[Brad]

Of North Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas and Virginia.

[Guest]

Had not seceded and didn't do so until April.

[Brad]

They're really waiting to see how the.

[Guest]

Problem plays out in this sort of first phase.

[Brad]

What's the reaction of the US and is this something that's actually going to happen?

[Host]

Sure. I mean, I guess it speaks to the internal strife within themselves. Right. The politics are going on all the time about who wants to leave and who wants to stay.

[Brad]

And there's.

[Guest]

There's a lot of disagreement about where slavery will be most secure.

[Brad]

So it's not as though the people.

[Guest]

In the Lower south are pro slavery.

[Brad]

And people in the Upper south are anti slavery by. By no measure.

[Guest]

But there are a lot of conservatives, and these are our kind of what we think of traditionally as conservatives who favor the status quo in places like.

[Brad]

Virginia, North Carolina and Kentucky, who recognize.

[Guest]

That the U.S. constitution has provided protection for slaveholding even though it's a domestic.

[Brad]

Institution, meaning it's controlled by states, and.

[Guest]

That if you leave the protection of the Constitution, it's very hard to say what the future of slavery will be. That's overwhelming.

[Brad]

The debate in Kentucky is that if we do this, we will ruin ourselves. And so they never secede effectively.

[Host]

It's a baby with a bathwater thing, isn't it?

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Host]

And Virginia, tellingly, is the last to secede in the spring. Obviously, that's the home of the Federalist Party. This is where it all begins.

[Brad]

George Washington and a lot of Virginians who had felt in that colonial era.

[Guest]

As though basically they were the ones in charge.

[Brad]

Right. The first sequence of presidents. And by the 1850s, it seems like South Carolina is now calling the shots. And so that conservatism in Virginia, famously.

[Guest]

Lee referred to secession as the essence.

[Brad]

Of anarchy, as revolution. And these are conservatives. They don't eagerly endorse revolution. And Lee says that to his son in January of 1861. So they are coming very slowly, but.

[Guest]

When they do come, they commit fully.

[Brad]

Of course, the Capitol has moved from Montgomery, Alabama, up to Richmond.

[Guest]

And Virginia enlists an enormously high percentage.

[Brad]

Of its men in Confederate forces. So those four upper south states are really key in terms of the production of resources, food, industrial production and enlistment. North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia especially.

[Host]

How outsized, to use the right word, is Texas in this whole process? I mean, is it an influential force yet?

[Guest]

No, not really.

[Brad]

It still does not have a significant enough population. And it's frankly, although, as you were noting in your intro, there are now.

[Guest]

Railroad connections that run east.

[Brad]

West Texas is on the far side of the Mississippi River. That is, you have to get over Louisiana and then into Texas. And it's mostly travel by ship, which takes a long time. The population is still much smaller. And although it will be a central.

[Guest]

Producer of beef and supplies for the.

[Brad]

Confederacy, it is not shaping the Confederacy or driving it. In fact, its governor, Sam Houston, is violently opposed to secession. I mean, he has to more or less be. Be sort of taken out of the picture by the state legislature, who are younger, eager secessionists.

[Guest]

Houston, of course, had led the fight.

[Brad]

To bring Texas out of Mexico and.

[Guest]

Into the United States.

[Brad]

And from his perspective, this is sheer madness.

[Host]

How much was it assumed by those who were pro secession that this would be a simple process, like they had the right to do this? So let's just go.

[Brad]

Well, they certainly made the argument that.

[Guest]

The Constitution never explicitly outlawed secession and.

[Brad]

That as they understood it, it was a compact. That's fudging a very important line, which.

[Guest]

Is the opening stanza of the Constitution.

[Brad]

Which says, we the people, not we the states. But notwithstanding that, there is also a very widespread expectation that if there is a conflict, it will be a short conflict.

[Guest]

That certainly the abolitionists and reformers in.

[Brad]

The north, from their perspective, the problem should be solved. That is slavery will be gone from the United States. And do they really want to invest blood and treasure in keeping this? And you know, famously, James Chestnut, the senator from South Carolina, who's. Whose wife, Mary Chestnut, leaves such a great diary. He says that whatever blood spilled in.

[Guest]

The Civil War, we can probably soak.

[Brad]

Up with a handkerchief.

[Guest]

You know, that is the expectation is.

[Brad]

A very low body count.

[Host]

Wow.

[Brad]

And. And other people say similar things. This proves to be, of course, horribly wrong. But there is a widespread expectation that military conflict may come. But if coming will be of. Of short duration, six weeks, they write a Constitution.

[Host]

And let's discuss that process. But I've always wondered, wasn't it basically just going to be the Articles of Confederation? Wasn't it just a throwback to what the United States was previously conceived as well?

[Brad]

The articles did not work well, and.

[Guest]

Southerners were key to drafting the Constitution.

[Brad]

Madison, Virginia, of course, wrote the draft that basically becomes the genesis of the. Of the Constitution. And so they basically don't want to.

[Guest]

Return that far back to a system that is so.

[Brad]

So Balkanized and empowered. The states.

[Guest]

Even though of course much of this.

[Brad]

Is driven by a concern about a federal government that might claim the ability to end slavery. There had been a lot of innovations.

[Guest]

In terms of the federal, in terms of federal authority that were quite useful.

[Brad]

And that Confederates are eager to replicate.

[Host]

So there is a convention. They go through a process of writing this thing. It starts, I guess it's adopted on the 8th of February 1861. So pretty early in this process. That's what the other states are looking at. Right when they're determining whether they want to be part of this.

[Brad]

I'd say that's part of it.

[Guest]

I think the concern is sort of.

[Brad]

What, by mid February, if you're in Virginia or Tennessee or Kentucky, you're kind of calibrating the Union response.

[Guest]

The, the Constitution. The Confederate Constitution, as you say, adopted.

[Brad]

Almost within days of the creation of the state, done in an organized way, but, but very quickly is different enough. Most importantly, it enshrines protections for slavery forever. There are a number of other differences and we can talk about those. But they are attempting to reassure anxious.

[Guest]

Upper Southerners, upper white Southerners that they.

[Brad]

Would that coming into this space guarantees for them slave property for as long as they might choose to hold it. I don't think the Constitution itself is a sort of key factor for most of them, but it does restructure the.

[Guest]

Government and it signals some of the.

[Brad]

Things that white Southerners had been apprehensive about in the years leading up to this. Mostly the advance of democracy.

[Host]

Interesting. It is very similar in that regard to the US Constitution. Is it called the Constitution of the Confederate States of America? Is that the name of it?

[Guest]

It is, yes.

[Brad]

And it has the same shape in terms of articles. And they begin with the legislative branches. The executive branch comes second.

[Guest]

The key innovations are a single term for the presidency.

[Brad]

So effectively term limits on the presidential.

[Guest]

Reelection, but a six year term.

[Brad]

And the goal of that was to insulate the president from popular will to make them less responsive to the needs of constituents. The movement towards more democratic state governments.

[Guest]

Had happened through the 1840s and 1850s.

[Brad]

All across the United States. That means the lowering of, of thresholds to vote so that you don't have to own property anymore.

[Guest]

The creation of more elected offices as opposed to offices appointed by governors. And there are a number of white.

[Brad]

Southerners, particularly in places like South Carolina.

[Guest]

But also in Georgia.

[Brad]

There's a good book about this, where.

[Guest]

The secession conventions are an opportunity to rewrite state law. And in some of those places, what.

[Brad]

They are doing is making their states less democratic.

[Guest]

These are overwhelmingly slaveholders that are elected to represent in these secession conventions.

[Brad]

And Virginia has a vigorous debate about taxation and how sort of where the tax burden should fall. Slaveholders were complaining about ad valorem taxation of slaves and westerners were complaining that the development had not proceeded in the.

[Guest]

Western part of the state. Virginia sort of maintains itself, but in.

[Brad]

Other places like Georgia and South Carolina, what you see is a kind of retrenchment.

[Guest]

And there's something similar happening in the, at the Confederate, at the federal level.

[Brad]

With the Confederate Constitution as well.

[Host]

So three branches of government, just like the U.S. constitution president serves for six years, not four, and I guess not available to, to, to reelection. It's a, it's a single term.

[Brad]

Okay, it's a single term.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Brad]

It is important to note that the Confederacy never actually organized a Supreme Court. It's sort of on the books, but they don't actually appoint members and have them sit. There are effectively federal judges that do intervene on draft cases and other other court cases brought against the Confederate government during the war. Right, but it basically doesn't last long enough to produce a bona fide Supreme Court.

[Host]

The idea generally is to emphasize state autonomy. Is that literally written into that Constitution?

[Brad]

Well, it is, although it also. Curiously, I've always found the preamble quite puzzling because it does identify states as, as the kind of constituent parts in a way that the federal, the US Constitution did not.

[Guest]

But it also claims that part of.

[Brad]

The, in the preamble to the Confederate Constitution, part of the purpose is to establish a permanent federal government, which actually is not language in the US Constitution. In other words, the Confederate Constitution embodies all of the paradoxes and ambivalences that secession itself did, which is a conservative revolution. You know, an effort to protect the future of slavery with a very radical political measure in a period of rapid political change and, you know, the post 1848 Europe. So there's just no getting around those.

[Guest]

Tensions within the Confederacy and they're present.

[Brad]

In its organic law.

[Host]

How do they, how do they define slavery in terms of, is it the three fifths compromise that's maintained?

[Brad]

And then it basically is a kind of blanket protection for slavery at the federal level.

[Guest]

In the, under the US System, slavery.

[Brad]

Was, was primarily protected and regarded as what they called in the 19th century.

[Guest]

A domestic institution, which meant one controlled by state law.

[Brad]

Which is why when northern states ended.

[Guest]

Slavery after the American Revolution, they did.

[Brad]

So by having constitutional conventions and rewriting their state constitutions. And so all the Way up to this, the presidents don't really have.

[Guest]

And even Lincoln, when he's elected, says.

[Brad]

I don't have the authority to change the status of slavery in Alabama.

[Guest]

That is dependent on the state of.

[Brad]

Alabama and Mississippi and Louisiana adjusting their organic law. But in the crisis of secession, which really in some respects accelerates when the.

[Guest]

Democratic presidential convention collapses.

[Brad]

It was held in Charleston, South Carolina, in the spring of 1860.

[Guest]

And the Southern members there, men like.

[Brad]

William Lowndes Yancey, are arguing that what they want is a federal slave code.

[Guest]

Meaning federal protection for slavery in the new territories.

[Brad]

And this is in blatant violation of a kind of professed belief in state rights. But they recognize that having the federal government protect slavery provides more certainty than this system in which the federal government.

[Guest]

May or may not interfere, and you're.

[Brad]

Left to have states regulated.

[Host]

In wider scholarship, is it acknowledged that this gang of people who had done this, who were intellectuals, who were very smart people, were recognizing this was an economic necessity versus a moral one? I mean, were there thoughts to that effect writing this Constitution?

[Guest]

Well, they do believe that slavery is a moral obligation for white Southerners and a Christian obligation, that what they are doing is civilizing and Christianizing people who.

[Brad]

Don'T have access to that, and that means better for them in the afterlife. Certainly they are well aware of the economic importance. You know, we. We talked a little bit about the interim of the sort of interregnum between the secession of South Carolina and.

[Guest]

And the formation of the Confederacy. The Deep south states send what they.

[Brad]

Call commissioners to Upper south states. These are basically diplomats trying to talk.

[Guest]

Upper south states into seceding.

[Brad]

And they lay out every variety of argument they can. There's a great. A short little book on this by Charles Due on the secession commissioners, and he has some of the speeches reprinted and. And one of them from a man named Stephen Hale from Alabama who speaks to the Kentucky legislature. And he makes economic arguments and moral arguments, and he predicts a. A kind of black takeover of the United States. I mean, he speaks in very apocalyptic terms. So, you know, sexual anxieties about interracial marriage sort of every stop is pulled out at that point. But certainly. And. And there's also an effort in the.

[Guest]

In the debate about the Confederate Constitution.

[Brad]

To reopen the Atlantic slave trade. That economics is central to this. That provision is defeated in the. The Confederate Constitutional Convention, mostly because people.

[Guest]

In the Upper south states, white Southerners.

[Brad]

From Virginia and North Carolina, had long been selling their slaves to Deep south states and making a lot of money and if the trade was reopened, it would have reduced the value of those enslaved people significantly.

[Guest]

And so there's basically a kind of political call made to not alienate Virginia.

[Brad]

If you're trying to. Trying to bring them in.

[Host]

It's both clarifying to understand that this was really discussed and really negotiated, but it's also incredibly depressing that smart people sat around and discussed this to such lengths and yet didn't come up with the most sensible issue, which is, you know, this is wrong, we can't do it anymore. But anyway, the initial structure is created as a one year tryout period, am I right? There's sort of a break in phase.

[Guest]

Yeah. For the President.

[Brad]

I mean, there's widespread expectation that he will basically be permanently. He's kind of appointed provisional president and then he is kind of reinaugurated in 1862 as the permanent president.

[Host]

But the idea was that there was no factions. Right. They didn't want to have any kind of arguments between themselves. How unrealistic is that?

[Brad]

Well, I think, yes, the unrealistic part.

[Guest]

Is expecting that if you outlaw political.

[Brad]

Parties, then people won't disagree.

[Guest]

And there had been a long anti.

[Brad]

Party tradition in American politics. People going back to concerns in the Federalist Papers about factionalism.

[Guest]

And so the belief, again as you point out among smart people, was that.

[Brad]

If we prevent party labels from being used, that will somehow generate a kind of uniform politics. And as it turns out, that's not how it goes.

[Host]

Yeah, let's talk about that president, the only President of the CSA, Jefferson Davis, born in 1808, son of a Revolutionary War soldier. Very important. These guys were first second generations from the founders. Youngest of 10 children, bunch of older brothers, goes to West Point. Thanks to one of those brothers in 1824, ends up not doing too well from there at that place because of his kind of problem with authority, doesn't isn't it?

[Brad]

Yeah, I mean, what's. It's also worth noting that Abraham Lincoln is born not far away. They're both born in Kentucky, Abraham Lincoln in 1809. They're sort of months apart in age. So in fact they're coming out of.

[Guest]

The same place, culturally speaking. But of course they go in very.

[Brad]

Different directions, mostly owing to Lincoln's move west with his family, eventually into Indiana and then Illinois. But yes, Jefferson Davis is. He attends Transylvania as a very young man, Transylvania College, one of the oldest.

[Guest]

West of the Mississippi.

[Brad]

And then, as you say, thanks to his brother, receives an appointment at West Point. He accrues demerits.

[Host]

Yes, let's say that's the way to end up, 23rd out of your class of 33. Let's not ignore the fact he's named Jefferson. I mean, this is no coincidence. You know, the family is proud of being among the founding class.

[Brad]

Yeah. And that's an old American tradition at the time of sort of basically hoping that if you name someone after a famous person, they will sort of follow in their footsteps. We end up with lots of George Washington's and Benjamin Franklin's. Benjamin Franklin Butler.

[Guest]

Right.

[Brad]

Ben Butler is one of the famous Union generals named after Ben Franklin. And I think that process, as you say, sort of shows how tightly they were knitted together. And Lincoln talks about this in the Gettysburg Address and other places.

[Guest]

The degree to which they felt themselves.

[Brad]

Extending and building on the revolutionary inheritance.

[Host]

Yeah, exactly. I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

[Narrator]

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[Brad]

Let's go.

[Narrator]

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[Matt Lewis]

Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, host of Echoes of History, the podcast that plunges you into the ranks of the Knights Templar, across ancient Egypt and behind the barricades of history's great revolutions to explore the worlds recreated in Assassin's Creed. In our new series, Chasing Shadows, we're in feudal Japan alongside samurai warlords and Shinobi spies. Whether you're gearing up for Assassin's Creed Shadows or captivated by Japan's rich history, this podcast, brought to you by Ubisoft and historyhit, is a must. Listen. Chasing Shadows is out now on the Echoes of History podcast.

[Host]

He'S assigned out west after West Point, Michigan. Forts Crawford and Winnebago. Plays a minor role in the Blackhawk War, then resigns to become a cotton planter in 1835, having been tried for insubordination, which he was acquitted for, he gets 800 acres, which he calls Briarfield Plantation. And of course, there would be enslaved workers on that Property. Starts with 23. Eventually, by 1860, he will legally possess well over 100. One important factor in his life is he plays a big part in the Mexican American War. Really distinguishes himself there.

[Brad]

It's true.

[Guest]

And I should note for listeners that.

[Brad]

Don'T know, as historians do, the sort of slaveholding, the breakdowns and socioeconomic turns.

[Guest]

23 slaves is actually a huge number.

[Brad]

His brother Joseph is fabulously wealthy on any measure. So typically, what for a person to.

[Guest]

Be qualified as a planter, sort of.

[Brad]

In retrospect, somebody that owns more than.

[Guest]

12 slaves puts them in that category and that's the top 10% of slaveholders.

[Host]

Wow.

[Brad]

So he really, that is the majority of slaveholders owned a single slave, numerically speaking.

[Guest]

The big ones, of course, own many hundreds.

[Brad]

But Jefferson Davis sort of begins at, you know, in the top 5% or something. His brother much higher than that. And as you say, he was part of a big coterie of West Point.

[Guest]

Trained, although not necessarily still in the.

[Brad]

Army, service members who participated in the Mexican American War.

[Guest]

Nearly all of the famous Civil War generals are kind of there together. And they do develop.

[Brad]

I mean, he does get a very.

[Guest]

Close experience of war.

[Brad]

There's some leadership experience there. Lee distinguishes himself more. There are a lot of other military service members that, that exit that war with a kind of higher pedigree or a more impressive luster than Davis does.

[Host]

The takeaway really is important. How deeply enmeshed Jefferson Davis was in the founding of America by his family story and then by the service to the nation through the military. I mean, he was really deep in. So it's, it's so strangely ironic that this man should end up being the president of the Confederacy. It's a, it's a weird turn of events.

[Brad]

Yeah, I would put Robert E. Lee.

[Guest]

In that same category.

[Brad]

His father, Light Horse Harry Lee, had been one of Washington's, George Washington's chief aides.

[Guest]

And Light Horse Harry Lee came to.

[Brad]

A sort of bad, debt ridden end. He actually dies, I think in Barbados or certainly somewhere in the Caribbean. But as you say, you know, these are men who feel very clearly a.

[Guest]

Profound attachment to the United States.

[Brad]

The argument of secessionists were that the.

[Guest]

Republican Party, which, remember, is really just.

[Brad]

Organized in about 1854 and its first presidential candidate is 56, have so perverted the course of the nation that it.

[Guest]

Can no longer claim its actual roots in the Revolution.

[Brad]

And so their effort, and there's a.

[Guest]

Big contest through the war of basically.

[Brad]

Who can claim a more authentic root or foundation in the American founding. And for, for Confederates, I mean, part of where you see this is Alexander Stevens, the Vice President of the Confederacy, in his inaugural address, famously rejecting Jefferson's dictum that all men are created equal. That that was a mistake, but we have rectified it. Yes, and this nation is founded on.

[Guest]

The opposite belief, he says its cornerstone rests on slavery.

[Brad]

Famously what comes to be called the cornerstone speech.

[Host]

I see. He marries his wife, dies early on, and after a very short period of time, he later remarries to a woman 18 years his junior. 1845, this happens. He then becomes, from this cotton planter career, involved in politics locally, then regionally. He won the election to the U.S. house of Representatives in 1845, joins the 29th Congress. He is by definition a Jacksonian Democrat. Opposition to federal power to the national bank. Votes to annex Oregon. So there's manifest destiny in there. He does fight that war with Mexico during this time he spends in Congress, he eventually leaves the army to become a U.S. senator for Mississippi. 1847, becomes involved with the issue of westward expansion, which was everything to these guys at the time, wasn't it?

[Brad]

Yeah. I mean, in many respects you can think of the Civil War, the fight.

[Guest]

Over slavery manifests in what the future.

[Brad]

Of the United States will look like.

[Guest]

And that future is in the West.

[Brad]

So will this be free labor or.

[Guest]

That is free labor territory or slave labor territory?

[Host]

Sure.

[Brad]

And it's not. I mean, much as we might like to believe that it was sort of initiated out of moral concerns in many respects. If we read the language of the.

[Guest]

People who become the Republican party in.

[Brad]

The 1850s, and they are anti slavery, but they are primarily anti slavery for the. Their concern about the way that slavery weakens the profit motive and the incentive to labor. So it's economically inefficient.

[Guest]

And their concerns about what that will.

[Brad]

Do to the economic development of the.

[Guest]

United States in the West.

[Host]

Yeah, sure. It's no coincidence that Jefferson Davis becomes the President when he was also. Well, he understands this westward expansion from fighting in the Mexican American War. Look what we've got. You know, as a result of winning this war, a third of the country now exists out West. That's the future of America. And he's one of those first people who's really dealing with that viscerally. March 1853, he becomes Secretary of War in the Pierce administration. We're still before the Civil War here. And therefore he is now, you know, operating in the White House. He understands how that whole thing is set up. How. How is he eventually chosen to be the president? Where does he come from in that discussion?

[Brad]

Well, I mean to go back to secession.

[Guest]

Davis is not one of these people.

[Brad]

From the 1840s or 1850s that we call fire eaters who are preaching secession.

[Guest]

And the importance of secession.

[Brad]

I mentioned Yancey, Robert Barnwell, Rhett in South Carolina, Edmund Ruffin in Virginia, who.

[Guest]

From the really 18, mid-1840s in the.

[Brad]

Aftermath of the Mexican War are saying the only, the only future solution for.

[Guest]

The problem of protecting slavery is for the south to leave.

[Brad]

Davis is, as you say, an American.

[Guest]

He serves in the House and the.

[Brad]

Senate, he serves in the Cabinet.

[Guest]

So he is in these terms a.

[Brad]

Kind of moderate on this question, which.

[Guest]

In this respect helps him, that is.

[Brad]

In the respect of who will we.

[Guest]

Elect to be president.

[Brad]

You really don't want a fire breathing radical who doesn't have any administrative experience to be your president.

[Guest]

You want somebody who knows how government works. Davis has military experience.

[Brad]

As Secretary of War he understood in a really intimate way the scope of American military power and all of its sinews. And he knew Washington, he knew people on both sides. And so he's in many respects a very logical choice to be president given that the likelihood of war and a leading Democrat.

[Guest]

The Senate is of course a great.

[Brad]

Place to launch a presidential bid from. And so his nomination and election makes.

[Guest]

A lot of sense. As it turns out. He has some real liabilities that we'll.

[Brad]

Talk about as we go.

[Guest]

But in terms of background, it would.

[Brad]

Be hard to craft somebody who has better experience going in.

[Host]

Right, right. What was the committee of 13? What does that refer to?

[Guest]

So this refers to a very late.

[Brad]

Stage effort to try to solve the crisis of secession that comes in the winter of 1860, 61, with a group of kind of upper south representatives and some Northerners who are trying to find a way around the, the impasse. The Confederacy has already been created, but.

[Guest]

It remains to be seen whether it.

[Brad]

Will actually take root.

[Guest]

There have been threats at secession before.

[Host]

This was what John Tyler was involved in, isn't it?

[Brad]

Yeah, I mean, and famously there's another, there's a kind of variant of this.

[Guest]

Called the, the Breckenridge Compromise.

[Brad]

John Breckenridge of, of Kentucky.

[Guest]

And they're advocating a set of constitutional.

[Brad]

Amendments that they hope will basically solve.

[Guest]

The problem and let Southerners save face and re enter.

[Brad]

These are things like a constitutional amendment that permanently protects slavery in the United States and then a constitutional amendment that prohibits future constitutional amendments from outlawing slavery.

[Guest]

However that would work.

[Brad]

Right. I mean these are sort of half, I would say half thought out because of course the Amendment process is by nature wide open, but it's a series.

[Guest]

Of kind of compromise measures mostly to placate slaveholders.

[Host]

I see.

[Guest]

And Lincoln says quite frankly at the.

[Brad]

Beginning of the, that is in this inner regnum in, in February, January, he says the Republican party was built on stopping the extension of slavery.

[Guest]

If we give that question up, if we give up in a seed to.

[Brad]

The Southerners demands, why wouldn't any Northerner.

[Guest]

Ever vote for us again?

[Brad]

The party would implode sort of on its first moment of success.

[Guest]

And so he's thinking we have built now for five or 10 years in.

[Brad]

Some cases an argument against the expansion of slavery. That's the rub. That's what he says. We cannot give on that issue.

[Guest]

I'm willing to compromise on other things.

[Brad]

But not on the expansion of slavery.

[Host]

Interesting. So Davis really gets elected as you say, because he is a moderate. He really is very opposed to this even as South Carolina withdraws, isn't he?

[Brad]

He is. And he stays in his Senate seat until into 1861. You know, he gives, depending on how you read it, either a tearful or alligator tear filled. Yeah, resignation speech. But he had committed a huge part of his life to the American government. And so I don't think it's, it's, it's not a, it's not a disingenuous moment for him. These are very hard decisions for white Southerners who had taken an oath of loyalty to defend the U.S. constitution.

[Guest]

He had taken that as a soldier.

[Brad]

And as a politician against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

[Guest]

And resigning your seat to join now.

[Brad]

A nation dedicated to destroying the United States is a real Rubicon to cross. And they're smart enough not to take that lightly.

[Host]

Does he become commander in chief at that point? I mean, I mean effectively, yes.

[Brad]

And in fact I would argue that one of Davis's weaknesses that he basically.

[Guest]

Not just commander in chief but general.

[Brad]

In chief, which was the kind of.

[Guest]

Position that Lincoln created separately to have.

[Brad]

Some military officer kind of managing. Jefferson Davis maintains active command of kind of the military planning. And this is one of his great weaknesses is a kind of reluctance to delegate. Again, he had military experience that turns.

[Guest]

Out to in fact be a liability once a real war develops.

[Host]

Should have paid more attention at West Point, shouldn't he? He's inaugurated February 18, 1861. Grand procession to sort of Dixie up to the, to the Alabama state Capitol. All of this is very official and very formal. Again, I'm always stuck on the idea that they thought they were just going to kind of get away with it. That it was all going to just sort of happen and wouldn't be in it. We'd now have our elegant state to rule. Little did they know. But I do want to circle back. He is not elected. Right. This is a. He is chosen for a one year period.

[Brad]

Yeah. By the Provisional. By the Provisional Congress or the sort.

[Guest]

Of convention that had crafted the Constitution.

[Host]

Right.

[Guest]

And they're the ones, yes.

[Brad]

Sort of identifying Jefferson Davis. It's a pretty closed group that's doing this.

[Host]

There is eventually an election later on in which leads to his second inauguration, which is February 22, 1861. So at that point, they're into the constitutional process. They have an elected president. I want to move ahead to the war itself. Fort Sumter is something that Jefferson Davis triggers. Right. He says go.

[Brad]

He is the one responsible.

[Guest]

I would say the division of responsibility.

[Brad]

Is partly split with the governor of South Carolina, who is the one sort of on the ground monitoring what's happening. But Davis.

[Guest]

And this speaks to the question of.

[Brad]

Kind of federal authority. Davis is the one giving the orders.

[Guest]

And both Davis and Lincoln are in.

[Brad]

A very hard position because their publics are kind of worked up and ready to see a kind of solution to whatever is going on. And Lincoln chooses to send the Star.

[Guest]

Of the west, an unarmed ship, to resupply what was a federal installation amount at Fort Sumter in Charleston harbor, where.

[Brad]

The Ashley and Cooper rivers come together. It was sort of half constructed, but it's mostly just kind of a big sandbox. May have been decades in the making. And Davis is unwilling to see that ship enter the harbor and resupply the fort. There's a US Flag flying there.

[Guest]

And this is territory that the Confederacy claims.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Brad]

They are really driven into making kind of both of them, in some respects.

[Guest]

Hasty decisions in order to placate a public eager to see some resolution. And of course, what this then triggers.

[Brad]

Is the Confederacy actually firing, famously on April 12, on the morning thereof, firing on Fort Sumter. There's a kind of desultory artillery barrage.

[Guest]

And then the fort surrenders.

[Brad]

They're run off food anyway. So it isn't really a battle per se. But it then that precipitates a rapid sequence of events that's going to be the secession of the Upper south and the kind of full creation of the Confederacy.

[Host]

And much that will happen in the next year confirms their greatest hopes that this will be a pretty easy battle for them in terms of the summer. Anyway. It gets tough later on. One of the things that's ironic I suppose that comes up is that in creating the Confederate States of the south, they actually have to kowtow to federal authority. Again, you know, you have to create an army. You have to, you know, the central authority of the Confederate states led by Davis gets an undue amount of power right off the bat.

[Brad]

It does. I mean this provides really one of the main axes along which people divide.

[Guest]

Politically in the Confederacy.

[Brad]

We had talked earlier about the way in which party labels are jettisoned and the presumption is that, and in fact when they people are elected to the Confederate Congress, they don't sit as Democrats or Whigs. The Whig party had effectively disappeared in the south in the 1850s. But this question of are you a nationalist or as one historian has termed the opposition, Libertarians.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And the nationalists like Davis, as you say, right out from the gate, there is a, there is a strong assertion.

[Guest]

Of central state authority.

[Brad]

We have to build a federal army. We can recruit from the militia. But if we're going to have an army of 2 or 300,000, eventually they're.

[Guest]

Going to put close to 900,000 men under arms.

[Brad]

That's not going to happen. Piecemealing it out state by state. It has to be managed from Richmond.

[Host]

Yeah. And they're about 20 years from an income tax at that point because although.

[Brad]

The Confederacy institutes the first one, I mean they, they impose more taxes from the central government than the, than the.

[Guest]

Lincoln administration does or certainly than the.

[Brad]

Pre war United States had. And this again, Davis is doing this not because he thinks taxes are great.

[Guest]

But because he has to fund this government.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Brad]

And so he's driven, he's driven to princip, to policies that really alienate those Southerners who thought part of what should happen in secession is a kind of.

[Guest]

Scaling back of federal authority.

[Brad]

And in fact you get a much.

[Guest]

Stronger central state out in the Confederacy than you did before this.

[Host]

You end up he's dealing with some of the same issues that Lincoln is, you know, and that's, that's the incredible parallel that happens here. He has to create this army out of nothing, out of militias.

[Brad]

Yeah. The first year, I mean the call is for a 100,000 man army.

[Guest]

Many more men than that volunteer.

[Brad]

And it's a kind of chaotic first year of trying to organize them.

[Guest]

But those men only enlist for 12 months. So that means that if you're enlisting.

[Brad]

In April, May, June of 1861, by.

[Guest]

The start of the active campaigning season.

[Brad]

In 1862, which is April, May, June.

[Guest]

Those men are set to go home.

[Brad]

And many of them feel that they have already done their obligation, they have.

[Guest]

Served a term, they signed a contract.

[Brad]

Contracts are the basis for landless or.

[Guest]

Propertyless men to have some purchase in the economy.

[Brad]

So there's an enormous amount of respect, or there should be, for contracts. And yet in January, the Confederate Congress, at Davis's urging, begins considering and eventually passes a draft act, the first in American history, because they are terrifically anxious.

[Guest]

That those men are all going to just go home.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And the draft act creates enormous unrest.

[Brad]

In the armies and it initiates a.

[Guest]

Spike in desertion that's really not matched.

[Brad]

Until the final days of the war, because those men felt as though they were being treated not as men any longer, but, as some of them said, as slaves whose bodies could be requisitioned by the state and used for whatever purposes.

[Host]

And you end up with the class problem of every military, which is. And especially in these days, rich men could opt out. They could hire somebody to fill in for them. Right.

[Brad]

Well, that is part of the draft is passed in April.

[Guest]

There are exemptions created in October. There's a kind of second set of.

[Brad]

Enabling legislation, and it carves out exemptions for things like teachers and ministers, certain.

[Guest]

Classes of industrial workers.

[Brad]

It importantly included an exemption for every 20 enslaved people that someone controlled. They received one exemption from the draft. And.

[Guest]

And poor men assumed that this meant.

[Brad]

That the firstborn son, and if you.

[Guest]

Had 40 slaves, two sons of the.

[Brad]

Slaveholder, would be exempted from the draft. The initiative is really driven by anxiety about the few number of military age.

[Guest]

White men left on the Confederate home.

[Brad]

Front and the dangers of an uprising. So it is in fact driven as a kind of public safety measure.

[Guest]

And my own reading of the evidence.

[Brad]

Because you almost never hear soldiers talking about this law, it is really a.

[Guest]

Kind of feature for a Confederate press.

[Brad]

That dislikes Davis and dislikes the draft.

[Guest]

They talk about the kind of rich.

[Brad]

Man'S war, poor man's fight, seeing in this policy the 20 Negro Law, a gross favoritism towards the wealthy. Newspaper editors make a lot of that.

[Guest]

There certainly is a lot of anger.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Brad]

But there are in fact, men who don't own slaves who understand the importance.

[Guest]

Of keeping white men on the southern.

[Brad]

Home front in order to manage an.

[Guest]

Increasingly restive population of enslaved people who.

[Brad]

See the war as an opportunity to liberate themselves, which they do, of course.

[Host]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

[Don Wildman]

Your customers are scrolling past your social ads using ad blockers and paying for ad free streaming. But when they're listening to a podcast, they're hearing Acast ads, which are 4.4 times more engaging than with display ads. So if you want real attention, start advertising on podcasts with Acast. Start today at go acast.com ads.

[Host]

Let's talk about how he organizes the army, eventually appointing Robert E. Lee. Does he go through the same struggles that Lincoln did in the early days?

[Brad]

Well, I think what's important and the.

[Guest]

Distinction between him and Lincoln is that.

[Brad]

Lincoln entered the war as a commander in chief knowing very little about the military. He had participated in the Black Hawk War as well as part of a kind of Illinois militia unit. They mostly sort of chased their tail in the woods and got bitten by mosquitoes. So he is, I would say, humble. And this is one of Lincoln's chief attributes.

[Guest]

He is educating himself.

[Brad]

He is reading manuals and treatises on.

[Guest]

The military, and he is trusting his.

[Brad]

Commanders to make decisions.

[Guest]

Jefferson Davis, because he had military experience.

[Brad]

Felt like he could make those decisions. Famously, after the battle at Bull Run, you mentioned the euphoria in the south about what a short war would be.

[Guest]

Jefferson Davis shows up on the battlefield.

[Brad]

He takes the train up from Richmond.

[Guest]

Maybe intending to take control of the troops.

[Brad]

And Beauregard, you know, the commander on the scene, is sort of thinking, I'm in command here. You're not. You don't show up as president. That's a civilian office, and sort of take over active command.

[Guest]

And. And that proves to be a real.

[Brad]

Weakness because Davis does not take advice.

[Guest]

Well in the way that, say, Lincoln was able to look.

[Brad]

And now you might argue Lincoln got.

[Guest]

Bad advice from McClellan and other people for a long time.

[Brad]

And it takes him years, really, to find the winning group, which is.

[Guest]

Which is Grant and Sherman and Sheridan.

[Brad]

And men like that. But he had a humility and a respect for the authority of military figures to actually understand how to run an army. Davis holds that pretty close to the chest. And so he is reluctant to appoint a general in chief.

[Guest]

Lee's first year is not very distinguished. He's in South Carolina building enforcements.

[Brad]

His nickname at the time was Granny Lee because he felt like the soldiers.

[Guest]

Felt like all we do with him.

[Brad]

Is shovel and we're on the defensive of. It's really only at the Seven Days Campaign and the Battle of Seven Pines before that. When Lee is put in in place of Joseph Johnston and behaves aggressively with.

[Guest]

His army, that sort of people say.

[Brad]

Oh, wait, this is the guy to command. But that took a long time.

[Host]

How much support is he Getting from within his Cabinet and the Congress. I mean, is it very factioned or not?

[Brad]

His Congress is very supportive. His closest ally is a former Louisiana senator named Judah Benjamin. And Benjamin serves nearly in every Cabinet.

[Guest]

Position at some point over the course of the war.

[Brad]

And he's a kind of close confidant. They do go through the Confederacy, I think, cycles through five Secretaries of War, which is not the kind of rotation in office you want during a conflict.

[Guest]

So his administration works generally very well with him.

[Host]

The.

[Brad]

The Quartermaster General, the Postmaster, people like that. The Congress, the Confederate Congress was illustrious in terms of its membership.

[Guest]

It included a former US President, John.

[Brad]

Tyler, as a congressman for a while, but they sort of deserve a record.

[Guest]

For the least accomplished. The Confederate Congress is a persistent break.

[Brad]

On the initiatives that Davis is trying to take, and he often just kind of ignores them and goes ahead with things.

[Guest]

But it is never the source of.

[Brad]

Ideas that the Northern Congress is for Lincoln. Lincoln has on the federal Congress side a host of people, Charles Sumner and others, who are thinking creatively about solutions to the war and are working kind.

[Guest]

Of constructively with the President. That's not happening in the south for.

[Brad]

Most of the war.

[Host]

It's a distasteful idea to me, anyway, to consider. But it's interesting to think about the fact that this is only a wartime administration. Anyone who had high hopes for the CSA then or now would would say it never had the chance to be a real, you know, governing thing. It was only a wartime thing.

[Brad]

Yeah. And of course, most of the elite, the. And especially the political members realize that.

[Guest]

Once a war starts, the glory is.

[Brad]

In the military side, not in the political side.

[Guest]

So many of them resigned. I mean, John Breckenridge famously, who had.

[Brad]

Been the presidential candidate of the Democrats in 1860, then becomes a general, and he's not a great general.

[Guest]

Many of these political generals are not. And so, yes, there's a kind of.

[Brad]

Transfer of leadership and skill out of.

[Guest]

Politics into the military.

[Brad]

This is part of not having as deep a bench. The north has more people, and they're.

[Guest]

Able to mount both robust military leaders.

[Brad]

And competent political leaders to actually manage the crisis.

[Host]

Sure, yeah. How did the public feel about Jefferson Davis? Was he a popular figure?

[Guest]

He was popular initially.

[Brad]

Part of the problem with not having a partisan structure, a party system that kind of channels your energy, is that.

[Guest]

Without that, most of the opposition is.

[Brad]

Directed at the person of Jefferson Davis. So it's not that we've got a.

[Guest]

Democrat in office and we don't like him.

[Brad]

And I've Never liked Democrats, so I'm not going to like him. But Jefferson Davis himself is to blame.

[Guest]

And it results in a personalization that.

[Brad]

Becomes very bitter and really quite nasty, including from his. His vice president, famously, Alexander Stevens. I mean, the real deficit for Davis, especially as compared to Lincoln, is an.

[Guest]

Inability to really articulate the war and.

[Brad]

The causes and the kind of needs of the Confederacy in a way that elevates those and that inspires people. Lincoln received a lot of criticism for being rough and callous and coarse and sometimes even vulgar. He used to famously sit in the telegraph office and read aloud humorists of the day. But he was terrifically adept at crafting short analogies, at telling jokes, at using a language that common people could understand.

[Guest]

And then, of course, very elevated high.

[Brad]

Language in his most famous addresses that touched people in different ways. And Davis was never able to really.

[Guest]

Crack the code on that.

[Brad]

Very smart and very kind of rational and clinical. But communication is a huge part of being a wartime president. So there's no equivalent of, you know, the fireside chats that you're going to get from Jefferson Davis. He just.

[Guest]

That's not in his skill set.

[Host]

Yeah, that's a good episode idea you've given me, comparing Davis to Lincoln and how much that was the root of success or failure for those sides.

[Brad]

Yeah. And I mean, the differences turn up. Historians have. Have you sort of go back and forth and in some respects it's not.

[Guest]

The fair comparison to say, compare him.

[Brad]

To Lincoln, although it's a useful one. But the sort of expectations that people had of him, which as I say, were quite high. And then over the course of the war, he is terrifically loyal to the.

[Guest]

People that are close to him, but.

[Brad]

If you cross him, you end up on a kind of blacklist. And so, for instance, he stays very loyal to Benjamin Bragg long into the.

[Guest]

War, long past the point when Bragg had the loyalty of his soldiers.

[Brad]

Davis famously has to go out to Tennessee in 1863 and, you know, the army under Bragg is in near revolt and Davis is still dragging his heels because he has a friendship with Bragg that he's sort of unwilling to. To. To mess with. And Lincoln has from the beginning of the war, much less ego involved in these decisions.

[Host]

After Gettysburg, it really becomes that sort of classic, you know, the war of attrition idea. Let's just hold on long enough to have some terms favorable. Terms of surrender. Is that Davis's view? Is that. Is he the architect of that strategy?

[Brad]

No. And I mean, Davis is still. Davis still believes victory is Possible. And in fact, he's not wrong in.

[Guest]

The sense that the 1864 presidential election.

[Brad]

That reelects Abraham Lincoln is in serious jeopardy. Late into the fall of 1864, it's only.

[Guest]

There's three essential military victories.

[Brad]

The capture of Mobile Bay late in August and then the victories in the Shenandoah Valley in October and then the capture of Atlanta. But if those things don't happen before the election, Lincoln is not going to be reelected.

[Guest]

And Lincoln himself had said that. And in that case, what you get.

[Brad]

Is George McClellan elected on a platform dedicated to immediately negotiating a peace with the Confederacy.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

What that would have looked like, we don't know.

[Brad]

But. But Lincoln feared that what it would.

[Guest]

Have meant, the permanent splitting of the United States.

[Brad]

So Davis is not. I mean, it looks sort of pie in the sky or wildly, unrealistically optimistic to imagine the Confederacy could actually win. But even as late as late 1864, it's not clear on the ground.

[Host]

Interesting. Okay, so when things go south, no pun intended for Davis and the rest, how much is he a part of the decision that Lee makes at Appomattox? Has he. He's. He okayed this.

[Brad]

He's been in. Yeah, he's been in close contact with. With Lee. And Lee is. I mean, that said, Lee is acting on his own sort of whizzed judgment about the fate of his army and the utility of maintaining resistance against Grant.

[Guest]

When his army is effectively surrounded.

[Brad]

The cavalry forces from the.

[Guest]

The Union had cut under the railroad that Lee was using to move to.

[Brad]

The west and that he was anticipating rations and supplies reaching his troops. The. I mean, Davis certainly hoped that Lee could hold out longer. Richmond is effectively evacuated on April 1st. There's a famous climb, dramatic moment on that Sunday when Davis comes into the Saint Andrews Church in Richmond, and then.

[Guest]

An aide comes in during the service and whispers to him.

[Brad]

And what he whispers is that is that Petersburg has fallen. And Davis gets up and leaves in the middle of the service, and there's a kind of gasp because people know this is it.

[Guest]

We're now.

[Brad]

We're now done. And Richmond is going to be evacuated imminently. So Davis, as you said, heads south. He hopes to keep the government intact. It's going to basically be put on a train and it goes to Danville and then south. He's actually captured in Georgia, but he's.

[Guest]

Hoping that Lee can hold out.

[Brad]

There is still Joseph Johnston's big army.

[Guest]

Which has not yet been pinned down.

[Brad]

Though it will be shortly by Sherman in North Carolina.

[Guest]

So he's holding out hope that the surrender of Lee's army alone does not spell the end of the Confederacy.

[Host]

He's arrested, he's put in leg irons, the whole thing. Indicted for treason, becomes imprisoned for two years at Fort Monroe, Virginia. Not right on the James river, right there.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And under indictment for longer.

[Brad]

I mean the federal government eventually abandons the decision to prosecute him, but that takes nearly four years. After Apprais, it's not really till 1869 that he sort of cleared of the.

[Guest]

Threat of being tried for treason.

[Host]

He's parodied as, as running away in women's clothing, isn't it? That's how he's. He's seen. Because he was carrying. He had a shawl over his head.

[Brad]

He does. And in fact I will say we lsu, the archive here at LSU just obtained some letters that are.

[Guest]

That I think have not been as.

[Brad]

Widely used by scholars that actually have the testimony of several of the soldiers who captured him. And in that capture, I was reading them just the other day, Verena Davis, his wife sort of makes a comment about to one of the soldiers saying well you wouldn't harm old women, would you?

[Guest]

Meaning herself and her mother in law.

[Brad]

I think is there. And also implying that Davis is a woman.

[Guest]

He has the shawl on. There's a huge amount of disagreement sort.

[Brad]

Of historically about whether he was actually dressed as a woman.

[Guest]

But the shawl is enough to give.

[Brad]

Northern satirists all the ammunition they need to present the Confederacy as literally unmanned. That it's, that it's, you know, so.

[Guest]

All the cartoons have him in a.

[Brad]

Full dress, in a skirt, sort of skipping away from the soldiers at the moment of capture as opposed to, you know, Lincoln's manly conquest here.

[Host]

Right. Over time, this two year, more than two year period, he is increasingly free to move around eventually the country. He makes his way to Canada in 1867, released on bail. The case against him is dropped officially December 25th, Christmas time, matter of fact, 1868. He is really the. The fate of Jefferson Davis is really the beginning of how do we heal this country. As far as you know, it becomes the lost cause of the Confederacy, etc. He figures prominently in that, isn't he?

[Brad]

Yeah, I would say that you know.

[Guest]

By 1867, certainly by 1869, reconstruction is in full swing.

[Brad]

And so the fate of his actual fate is less consequential. And that's part of why that the government finally just let that case. There was a great deal of kind of legal political Wrangling over how he.

[Guest]

Would be charged, what the charge would.

[Brad]

Be, and what would it be in.

[Guest]

A military court, would it be in a civilian court?

[Brad]

The. The Chief justice of the Supreme Court, Salmon Chase, was responsible for the circuit involving Richmond. And Chase has some kind of constitutional reluctance to participate in the way that the prosecutor wanted. So in a way, it's sort of.

[Guest]

Technicalities, but in a way his prosecution.

[Brad]

Has also kind of become irrelevant.

[Host]

But why, I mean, don't you think, I mean, had there been a famous hanging of Jefferson Davis, wouldn't that have been the nail in the coffin for the CSA and all of that?

[Guest]

It certainly could have been.

[Brad]

And it would have dramatically changed how.

[Guest]

We view the csa, which is as an act. At the beginning of the show, you talked about the seditious Southern states.

[Brad]

And still to this day, I would say sort of popular memory is reluctant.

[Guest]

To use words like treason or traitor.

[Brad]

Despite the fact that these are people.

[Guest]

And Lee knew this well, who had.

[Brad]

Taken an oath of obligation on a Bible to protect and defend the US Constitution. And then they wind up making war.

[Guest]

Against the United States.

[Brad]

Sure, yeah, very hard to square those things. But there is a groundswell of eagerness.

[Guest]

In the immediate post war period.

[Brad]

Bill Blair has written a very good book on this in the sort of summer of 1865, led by people, ministers and others who are saying now is the time to be generous and to welcome white Southerners back and that executions.

[Guest]

And hangings are going to exacerbate the goal for which we fought, which was.

[Brad]

To reunify the south and the North. And that decision. There's. There's maybe 10 or 12 executions. The majority of them are guerrillas who had been long sought, famously Henry Wirtz, the commandant of Andersonville Prison. But the public sentiment, although it turns after Lincoln's assassination, basically there's little stomach.

[Guest]

In the north for the kind of.

[Brad]

Widespread executions that say. I mean, if we look at a comparative event, the Paris Commune, when the.

[Guest]

National troops come into Paris, they kill tens of thousands of Communards.

[Brad]

Bodies are stacked in the street. They don't have coffins for all of them.

[Guest]

There's no compunction about.

[Brad]

And this isn't the commanders of the Commune, this is just the everyday soldiers. There's never any question of sort of.

[Guest]

Arresting or executing common soldiers. It's a very small class of men.

[Brad]

That even have their political rights temporarily lost as a result of the war.

[Host]

He lives a good long life. He dies in 1889. Jefferson, he does.

[Brad]

He does the home that he spends Most of his time in Beauvoir is not far from us. I'm in Baton Rouge and it's down along the Gulf, though it has been repeatedly destroyed by hurricanes in the last decade or so. But he has the good fortune of being in the United States, if not his. He doesn't sort of function as a full citizen, but he lives out his full life. He writes a long, I would say.

[Guest]

Tedious defense of what he did on.

[Brad]

Constitutional grounds when, as we discussed, there was a lot more driving secession than an abstract theory of commitment to state.

[Host]

That's my last question for you. Did he atone for his sins? What I would view as sins?

[Guest]

No.

[Brad]

He never admits that secession was either unconstitutional or wrong. And that's the part that I think, you know, when I discuss this with students, you have to take seriously his.

[Guest]

Belief in 1861 that the war was.

[Brad]

Winnable, because if he thought it wasn't winnable and he prosecuted a war nonetheless, that's actually a horrible position ethically to be in.

[Guest]

He really believed that it was possible.

[Brad]

But in a kind of larger sense.

[Guest]

That he takes responsibility for the set. Now, what we would say is 750,000.

[Brad]

Dead, you know, the bloodiest war by.

[Guest]

Several orders of magnitude in American history.

[Brad]

And one of the worst anywhere in the 19th century, that that was driven by a government that he led. And instead, he sort of goes down resisting that kind of an interpretation. I mean, he said, famously, I would say, at the. After the Emancipation Proclamation was passed, he.

[Guest]

Called it the blackest crime in all.

[Brad]

Humanity, which is a. I mean, this is what I call sort of going all in.

[Guest]

Not just that emancipation is a bad.

[Brad]

Idea, but it's the worst idea in Christian history.

[Host]

Wow.

[Brad]

And we don't believe that anymore.

[Guest]

So Davis is on the wrong side of that position.

[Host]

He took that to the grave.

[Brad]

Yeah.

[Host]

Aaron, what is it like to teach the Civil War in the Deep South? Is it any different than doing it in Maine?

[Brad]

Well, to be fair, I haven't taught it in Maine, but I grew up in Michigan.

[Guest]

And at this point, I don't think.

[Brad]

That it's very different.

[Guest]

I think that the generations coming out.

[Brad]

Of the Civil War centennial in the 1960s and 70s, there were a lot of students who entered campuses with a kind of axe to grind, what we would call today a kind of neo Confederate interpretation. And I don't find that students are.

[Guest]

Interested, and they're probably more interested in studying it in the south than students.

[Brad]

Who grew up in places like Minnesota or Michigan.

[Guest]

There's much more visible public architecture built.

[Brad]

Around the Civil War in the South. But I don't find students politically angry.

[Guest]

Or predisposed to a particular historical interpretation.

[Brad]

And so from my perspective, it's great because they actually want to hear about it.

[Guest]

And when you lay out the evidence.

[Brad]

Which is that the secession was driven by a desire to protect slavery, they.

[Guest]

Genuinely look at the evidence and say, that's persuasive to me.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And, you know, we're trying to do.

[Brad]

It in an analytical way without they didn't commit that crime.

[Guest]

That's not something they need to feel personally guilty for. Maybe their ancestors did.

[Brad]

But there are a lot of things that all our ancestors do that we're not proud of.

[Host]

And then they go see a football game. And I personally am a huge LSU fan, so thank you very much for joining us. Aaron Shendeen is a professor at Louisiana State University, lsu. He edited a companion to the US Civil War and the Civil the Final Year Told by those who Live it, among many other things. Aaron, do you have a website that we should know about or anything like that?

[Brad]

I do. Simple. SheAndEanWithAH.com There you go. And all my books are on there. And it was a pleasure talking to you today, Don. Thanks.

[Host]

Thank you very much. You too. Hey, thanks for listening to American History at. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American History hit with me, Don Wildman, so grateful for your support.

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