American History Hit

Episode: Who Was the Best President Ever?

Host: Don Wildman
Guest: Dr. Jeremy Suri (Professor of History, University of Texas at Austin; author, “The Impossible Presidency”; host of the This is Democracy podcast)
Date: October 9, 2025

Overview

This lively episode tackles the perennial debate: Who was the greatest president in American history? Don Wildman and Dr. Jeremy Suri delve deeply not only into the legendary figures who have shaped the presidency but also the criteria by which we ought to judge presidential greatness. The discussion moves from Mount Rushmore’s giants (Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt) to the critical qualities of leadership, how each president responded to crisis, and why policy outcomes and visionary evolution of the office matter just as much as political acumen. The episode closes with each guest’s personal pick for the “best president ever,” thoughtful commentary on how the presidency has evolved, and a bonus round considering the most underrated chief executives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Makes a Great President?

(04:04 – 11:59)

• Vision and Guiding Star:
  Presidents are looked to as “guiding stars,” offering national vision and purpose—especially in times of crisis.

  “People look to the president... as someone who makes order out of chaos and provides people a sense of where we're going.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (04:26)

• Bully Pulpit and Communication:
  Ability to distill complex federal issues into digestible, inspiring messages for the public (originating with Teddy Roosevelt).
• Effective Leadership & Administration:
  Great presidents excel at navigating governmental machinery, building effective teams, handling Congress, and choosing capable advisers.

  “A truism of leadership, right? You are judged by the people you choose as much as by what you yourself do.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (06:41)

• Crisis Response:
  Standing up to challenges with proactivity and creativity becomes the true mark of greatness—epitomized by Lincoln, FDR, JFK.
• Shaping the Office:
  Significant presidents “mold the office to serve the times,” evolving presidential powers and responsibilities while respecting constitutional boundaries.

The Role of Policy and Legacy

(09:08 – 11:49)

• Policies Matter:
  It’s not only about style or intent, but historical policy outcomes must be weighed.

  “You can't be a great president if your policies failed.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (10:01)

• Subjectivity of Greatness:
  Both hosts note the inherent subjectivity—what’s “great” can be another’s suffering, and judgments often shift over time.

  “Every one of the greatest presidents harmed other people. That's the nature of politics.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (11:18)

Breaking Down the Contenders: The “Mount Rushmore” List

George Washington

(15:31 – 19:43)

• Consensus Builder & Modest Leader:
  Used persuasion to unify disparate states into a nation—defined and dignified the presidency.

  “Set a precedent... to govern in a way that is consensus building, to govern in a way that emphasizes building, investing in a national economy... presidents are not kings.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (15:31)

• Power of Resignation:
  Emphasized public service over ambition; resignation at the end of both the war and his second term cemented democratic norms.

  “He understands... the power of resignation... It creates a democratic ethos... coming to serve and then returning home.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (16:43)

• Virtue and Image:
  Skillfully cultivated an enduring public image of virtue though grounded in reality (“his image was based on reality, not on handlers”—18:03).

Thomas Jefferson

(19:52 – 21:43)

• Visionary but Flawed:
  Gave voice to founding ideals but was deeply partisan and made major policy blunders (e.g., Embargo Act).
  • Legacy Paradox:
    Noted for hypocrisy regarding slavery.

    “A visionary of the empire of liberty... but my African American family and friends would stare me down at this point. Are you kidding me?”
    —Don Wildman (21:43)

• Populist Expansion:
  Advocated for “the people’s” government, but limited to white men; Louisiana Purchase a major achievement.

Andrew Jackson (briefly discussed for context)

(22:26 – 24:28)

• True Believer in Populism:
  Genuinely expanded participation for white male settlers, and reshaped presidential power, but his legacy tainted by staunch support for slavery.

Abraham Lincoln

(24:28 – 28:31)

• Adaptability and Growth in Crisis:

  “If leadership is about growing and adjusting to unforeseen and foreseen but difficult circumstances, this man does it.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (24:57)

• Transformational Leadership:
  Held together the Union, abolished slavery, laid groundwork for public universities, public land, and modern economy.
• Master Communicator & Storyteller:
  Delivered immortal speeches (Gettysburg Address, Second Inaugural)—crafted a national narrative.

  “He writes two of the five best speeches in our history.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (25:57)

• Team of Rivals:
  Valued dissent, built a cabinet of strong-minded advisors.

Theodore Roosevelt (TR)

(28:31 – 31:37)

• Beginning of the Modern Presidency:
  Championed progressive reforms, antitrust action, conservation, and governmental activism on behalf of all Americans.
• Charisma and Moral Courage:
  Endured assassination attempt, rallied public with bold words and deeds.

  “The courageous presidency that he is, the BOLDNESS man.”
  —Don Wildman (40:33)

• Inclusiveness (for the Era):
  Advanced the idea of nontraditional groups as stakeholders (if not yet equals).

Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR)

(31:37 – 38:36)

• Empathizer-in-Chief & Master of Media:
  First to reach into American homes via radio (“fireside chats”) and to embody presidential empathy.
• Builder of Modern State:
  Oversaw expansion of federal power, New Deal programs, and U.S. world leadership.
• Resilience and Self-Confidence:
  Overcame personal disability to command national crises with profound self-confidence, not sheer ego.

  “He had a profound self-confidence that's different from ego. Every president has a big ego. Self-confidence is the ability not to think that you have all the answers...”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (34:19)

• Hope in Crisis:

  “He created hope. He created optimism. That big smile, right? Happy Days are Here Again.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (37:33)

Personal Choices: Who’s the Best?

(39:57 – 41:36)

• Don Wildman’s Pick:
  Theodore Roosevelt (TR)—for his courage, dynamism, and remaking of the presidency for the modern era.

  • “I love TR ... The personality presidency that he is, the courageous presidency that he is, the BOLDNESS. Man, it's T.R. for me.” (40:33)

• Dr. Jeremy Suri’s Pick:
  Abraham Lincoln—for redefining the nation, surviving its greatest crisis, and laying the enduring foundations of modern America.

  • “Lincoln is the Zeus of presidential gods for me. Abraham Lincoln defined the nation as no one else had...” (40:33)
  • “There’s one America before Lincoln, there’s another America after Lincoln. He not only shaped the office, he shaped the nation.”
    —Don Wildman (42:02)

The Presidency Today & Looking Forward

(43:23 – 46:53)

• On Evolving Standards & Challenges:
  Will the “top four” always dominate? Dr. Suri hopes not, because greatness should meet the challenges of each era.

• Contemporary Challenges:
  The complexity of society and global affairs makes it “harder than ever” to be a great president today (43:52).

  • The office’s scale and expectations have grown to the point of being nearly “impossible.”

    “Presidents are trying to do too much and they die by a thousand cuts... That's what’s happened with every president, certainly from Lyndon Johnson forward.”
    —Dr. Jeremy Suri (44:24)

• Advice:
  The presidency needs to “do fewer things and do them well,” focusing on nonpartisan issues that shape national prosperity (45:56).

Bonus Round: Most Underrated President

(46:53 – 50:24)

• Don’s Picks:

  • Grover Cleveland—effective but hampered by economic crises and lack of continuity.
  • Ulysses S. Grant—especially the first term, for civil rights enforcement: “He was bad at being a president in the second term for sure. But he could have learned... in his third.” (47:27)

• Dr. Suri’s Picks:

  • Ulysses S. Grant—established the Justice Department and advanced African American political participation more than any other administration until the Civil Rights era.

    “In 1870, 1872, you had more African Americans elected to office... than you would have again until 1970.” (49:12)

  • Dwight D. Eisenhower—for Cold War management, infrastructure (Interstate Highways, NASA), and support for middle-class educational access.

    “Eisenhower... does some incredibly New Deal-like investments... National Defense Education Act of 1958 is how people like me got to go to college.” (49:36)

• Honorable Mention: Chester A. Arthur, “changed by the office more than he changed the office.” (50:20)

Notable Quotes

• “The successful presidents are the presidents who adjust the office to serve the times while still maintaining constitutional limitations.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (08:39)

• “Self-confidence is the ability ... that you believe in yourself and you believe that you can work with others who are different from you and you can change and still be the great person that you are.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (34:19)

• “We’re never going to get another Lincoln, but we need those Lincoln qualities in someone in each of our societies, not just in the U.S. today.”
  —Dr. Jeremy Suri (41:36)

• “There’s one America before Lincoln, there’s another after Lincoln. He not only shaped the office, he shaped the nation.”
  —Don Wildman (42:02)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Main Debate Setup: 01:34 – 04:04
• Criteria for Greatness: 04:04 – 11:59
• Rushmore Candidates Analysis:
  • Washington: 15:31 – 19:43
  • Jefferson: 19:52 – 21:43
  • Lincoln: 24:28 – 28:31
  • T. Roosevelt: 28:31 – 31:37
  • FDR: 31:37 – 38:36
• Picks for Best President: 39:57 – 41:36
• Presidency’s Modern Challenge: 43:23 – 46:53
• Most Underrated Presidents: 46:53 – 50:24

Tone and Takeaways

The episode blends passionate expertise, humor, and a thoughtful approach to the complexity of presidential legacies. Both guests agree that greatness is subjective, context-dependent, and always up for debate—but that leadership, vision, and adaptive problem-solving are the enduring standards by which American presidents should be judged.