Podcast Summary: American History Hotline
Episode: America Loves Trains. Why Can’t We Build Them Anymore? Inside NYC’s Second Avenue Subway
Host: Bob Crawford
Guests: Dan McNicol (Author: Second Avenue Subway: Building the Most Famous Thing Never Built in New York City), Joe Stanford (Editor of Dan's book, former US DOT analyst)
Date: January 7, 2026
Episode Overview
This episode of American History Hotline digs into a listener question: “Why is it so hard to build new rail lines in the U.S.? If Americans once loved trains and built them everywhere, what happened?” Host Bob Crawford is joined by Dan McNicol and Joe Stanford to examine the Second Avenue Subway as a case study and explore the deeper history, economics, politics, and culture behind America’s stalled rail ambitions.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. America’s Rail "Fall From Grace"
- Historical Domination in Rail
- In the 19th century, the U.S. went from canals to rail and became a world leader, especially in freight.
- Dan McNicol: "We outdid ourselves. We were in the canal era and then moved quickly to rail. Rail killed the canal era and it was prolific." (03:03)
- In the 19th century, the U.S. went from canals to rail and became a world leader, especially in freight.
- Current Passenger Rail Reality
- U.S. still leads in freight but lags severely in passenger rail—public systems are slow, underfunded, and rarely expanded.
- Comparison with China: China expects 45,000 miles of high-speed rail by 2035; U.S. may manage a single 213-mile new passenger line in the same timeframe.
- Bob Crawford: "In the United States we are on track to possibly build a 213 mile track [Las Vegas] by 2035." (05:32)
2. Why Did America Stop Building?
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Rise of the Interstate Highway System
- The 20th century saw a massive turn towards cars, prompted by government investment in roads and suburbanization.
- Joe Stanford: "There is a bit, from a systems perspective, of a vicious cycle—once you start building in one direction, it builds momentum." (04:36)
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Perception of Freedom vs. Reality
- Cars symbolize American freedom, but traffic and infrastructure make them confining.
- Repeated Notable Quote:
"People like to think that the car is the way to travel around freely. But there is nothing more confining than being stuck in traffic. It makes you feel like a prisoner and it can make you feel helpless."
—Joe Stanford (06:16)
- Cars symbolize American freedom, but traffic and infrastructure make them confining.
3. Second Avenue Subway: The Ultimate Case Study
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Origins
- Rooted in the late-1800s, built first as elevated lines (Second/Third Ave); drastically improved mobility, enabled city expansion.
- Dan McNicol: "They built in very little time...an elevated rail line...It accelerated the growth of New York City." (09:28)
- With the shift to subways in 1904, East Side lost out as focus moved west.
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100 Years of Delays
- The Second Avenue line was demolished in 1940–42, with steel "supposedly" sent to WWII.
- Delayed by economic crashes, war, political shifts—became a perpetual promise never realized until recent decades.
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Construction Challenges
- Cut-and-cover methods (digging up streets) were common but disruptive; modern projects use deep-bore tunneling to avoid disrupting daily life, albeit at exponentially higher cost.
- Joe Stanford: "Going into these deep bore tunnels...is a bigger project, and that's where you get into the billions of dollars instead of the hundreds of millions." (11:29)
- Half-built tunnels from the 1970s are being repurposed today, showing decades of fits and starts.
- Cut-and-cover methods (digging up streets) were common but disruptive; modern projects use deep-bore tunneling to avoid disrupting daily life, albeit at exponentially higher cost.
4. The Cost Problem
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Skyrocketing Prices in the U.S.
- New York’s Second Avenue Subway is "the most expensive subway ever built"—roughly $2 billion/mile, vastly outstripping Paris or Tokyo ($200-500 million/mile).
- Dan McNicol: "According to the New York Times and many academics, it is the most expensive subway line ever built." (20:17)
- Joe Stanford: "[New York] is unambiguously the most expensive place in the world" to build transit. (21:03)
- New York’s Second Avenue Subway is "the most expensive subway ever built"—roughly $2 billion/mile, vastly outstripping Paris or Tokyo ($200-500 million/mile).
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Why So Expensive?
- Lack of consistent building leads to loss of expertise and higher error rates.
- "Learning by doing" is missing; countries with frequent projects get better, cheaper, and faster.
- Joe Stanford: "You just don't have that expertise in that ecosystem ready to go" when you only build once every 10 years. (23:19)
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Culture and Institutional Knowledge
- Bob Crawford: "Sounds like what you're saying to me... institutional knowledge." (25:04)
- Success begets more success; current cycles of infrequent builds keep costs high and know-how low.
5. Politics, Regions, and Advocacy
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Car Culture and Political Division
- Support falls along rural (red, highway-focused) and urban (blue, transit-focused) lines.
- Dan McNicol: "If you divide the country up between red and blue, blue is for subways, red is not." (26:19)
- Support falls along rural (red, highway-focused) and urban (blue, transit-focused) lines.
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A False Zero-Sum Game
- More subways relieve congestion for drivers, as every subway rider is one less car.
- Joe Stanford: "When you're driving and you're stuck in traffic, your best friend is the guy who's on the subway." (27:53)
- More subways relieve congestion for drivers, as every subway rider is one less car.
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Regulation Woes
- Environmental and procedural rules often stymie progress; well-intended laws are now used to kill projects, not guide them.
- Dan McNicol: "Regulations are strangleholding... The rules on the books actually are working against progress." (29:21)
- Environmental and procedural rules often stymie progress; well-intended laws are now used to kill projects, not guide them.
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Need for Bipartisanship and Long-Term Vision
- Generational projects require patient coalitions, political continuity, and public buy-in—currently, a rarity.
6. Big Picture Solutions & Future Outlook
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Bigger, Faster Projects
- Build consistently so costs drop and expertise solidifies.
- Recognize there will never be a “good moment”; start anyway.
- Joe Stanford: "It's never a good time to build and improve your infrastructure, but it's always the right time." (31:54)
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Learning from Other Countries
- Adopt best practices in project management, labor, and technology from more prolific builders.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On America’s Lost Edge
“If we could do something even half as good [as China], you'd see this magnificent shift I think towards rail.”
—Dan McNicol (07:07) -
On Why Nothing Gets Built
“Politicians don't lead, they follow. …We are in our echo chamber and we're not aware of what the world is doing and we are being terribly left behind.”
—Dan McNicol (08:42) -
On Institutional Knowledge
"When you only do [these projects] once every 10 years… you just don't have that expertise in that ecosystem ready to go."
—Joe Stanford (23:19) -
On Political Reality
“If you divide the country up between red and blue, blue is for subways, red is not... it’s based on what people see and what they need.”
—Dan McNicol (26:19-26:33) -
On Shared Stakes
"When you're driving and you're stuck in traffic, your best friend is the guy who's on the subway."
—Joe Stanford (27:53)
Highlighted Timestamps
- 02:42 — Listener question on why America's train-building stopped
- 03:03 — U.S. rail dominance, differences between freight and passenger service
- 04:36 — Interstate highways and the infrastructure system’s “vicious cycle”
- 06:16 — The myth of automotive freedom
- 07:07 — China’s rapid rail progress vs. U.S. failures
- 09:28–13:42 — Second Avenue Subway’s tortured, 100-year history
- 21:03–23:19 — America’s exorbitant rail construction costs; learning by doing and why we pay so much more
- 25:04 — The importance of institutional knowledge and a “building culture”
- 26:19–27:53 — Political divisions and why cars vs. trains is a false dichotomy
- 29:21 — Regulatory and procedural obstacles; public and private roles
- 31:54 — The necessity—and challenge—of long-term, consistent investment
Closing Anecdote
Why Americans Drive on the Right:
Dan McNicol explains it all goes back to the “lazy boards” on Conestoga wagons on the National Road, establishing a right-side driving tradition based on practical needs—one of many quirks in the fascinating story of American mobility. (33:52)
Tone & Style
Throughout, the tone alternates between passionate, frustrated, and nerdy-humorous—guests share plenty of war stories, history lessons, and direct, personal asides such as:
“I go into Boston now and I can't make but one appointment if I want to do it in person…”
—Dan McNicol (27:53)
Bob keeps the conversation accessible and frequently reiterates key takeaways for listeners, encouraging them to think about rail not as nostalgia but as urgent, unfinished business.
Key Takeaways
- America once led the world in rail but investment, political will, and expertise have atrophied.
- The car culture, highway policies, and procedural red tape make new rail nearly impossible to build—at reasonable cost or speed.
- The Second Avenue Subway is both a cautionary tale and a sign of potential revival: when we build consistently and smartly, things improve.
- The road to better transit is bumpy but not impossible—with consistent building, better regulations, and a shift in political messaging, change is possible.
For those interested in the intersection of history, policy, and infrastructure, this episode offers a compelling, sometimes exasperated look at why America can’t seem to build trains anymore—and what it might take to get back on track.