American History Hotline

Episode: America Loves Trains. Why Can’t We Build Them Anymore?
Host: Bob Crawford
Guests: Dan McNicol (Author of Second Avenue Subway: Building the Most Famous Thing Never Built in New York City), Joe Stanford (Editor, former US Dept. of Transportation analyst)
Date: February 13, 2026

Overview

This episode dives into the history and present-day realities of rail construction in the United States, using New York City's Second Avenue Subway as a case study. Host Bob Crawford, joined by Dan McNicol and Joe Stanford, answers a listener’s question about why it's so difficult to build new rail lines in America, exploring historic, political, cultural, and logistical barriers—and what that means for the country’s infrastructure future.

Key Discussion Points

1. America’s Early Love Affair with Railroads

• Foundation & Leadership in Rail
  • The U.S. once led the world in rail construction, particularly in freight transportation ([04:35]).
  • “We fell in love with rail. We outdid ourselves...By the late 1800s, we were a magnificent force in rail worldwide.” — Dan McNicol ([04:35])
• Transition to Passenger Rail Decline
  • While freight remains strong, U.S. passenger rail infrastructure lags far behind global standards.
  • China has become the global leader in high-speed rail, illustrating what the U.S. could have been ([07:04]).

2. The Rise of the Automobile and the Interstate System

• Systemic Shift from Rail to Cars
  • Joe Stanford highlights the “vicious cycle” initiated by investment in highways and car culture ([06:08]).

    “Once you start building in one direction, it builds momentum and it, it builds the infrastructure and it builds the users and the users drive more infrastructure and you end up with this amazing highway infrastructure and this really poor rail infrastructure.” — Joe Stanford ([06:08])

• The Illusion of Freedom
  • “There is nothing more confining than being stuck in traffic. It makes you feel like a prisoner..." — Joe Stanford ([07:48], echoed at [00:00])

3. International Comparisons & The High-Speed Rail Gap

• China's Explosive Progress
  • Dan’s personal experience: high-speed travel in China slashed 21-hour journeys down to 5 hours at an affordable $20 ([08:39]).
• American Projects Stuck
  • The California high-speed rail project is cited as an example of expense and stagnation (“Ten years, 1% of the track built, billions of dollars spent, nothing accomplished.” — Dan McNicol [08:39])

4. The Second Avenue Subway: America's "Most Famous Thing Never Built"

• Historical Backdrop
  • Origin traced to late 1800s’ elevated lines, accelerating NYC's growth ([11:00]).
  • Elevated lines replaced by a promised but continually postponed subway expansion.
• Endless Delays
  • “[The Second Avenue Subway] was always promised, but it was never built. And that's the tagline in our book…” — Dan McNicol ([15:14])
  • Delays caused by political will, shifting priorities, wars, funding crises, and changes in transit philosophy.

5. Technical Challenges in Subway Construction

• Methods: Cut-and-Cover vs. Deep Bore
  • Cut-and-cover is disruptive but cheaper; deep bore is less disruptive but more costly ([13:01]).
• Historical Approaches
  • New York kept subways near the surface for accessibility, leading to more street disruption ([13:56]).
  • Modern expansions use deep-bore methods where possible ([16:32]).

6. The Cost Crisis: Why Is U.S. Rail So Expensive?

• Astronomical Project Costs
  • Second Avenue Subway cost ~$2 billion per mile, vs. a couple hundred million per mile in Paris ([21:44]).

    “According to the New York Times and many academics, it is the most expensive subway line ever built.” — Dan McNicol ([21:44])

  • New York recognized as the most expensive place on Earth for subway construction ([22:29]).
• Root Causes
  • Lack of continuous building experience (“learning by doing”) means losing institutional knowledge ([24:46]).

    “We don't do it, and we're not good at it. And two, we are very good at it when we do it, but we're not good at doing it cheaply.” — Dan McNicol ([23:18])

  • Regulatory hurdles, risk aversion, and procedural inefficiency also contribute significantly ([30:48]).

7. Political Will and Cultural Shifts

• Partisan Divide
  • “If you divide the country up between red and blue, blue is for subways, red is not…red is rural, red is highway.” — Dan McNicol ([27:45])
  • Support correlates with urbanization; rural areas are car-dependent ([28:00]).
• Missed Opportunities for Common Ground
  • Public transit can benefit both drivers and riders by reducing congestion, but this argument is underused ([29:22]):

    “When you're driving and you're stuck in traffic, your best friend is the guy who's on the subway.” — Joe Stanford ([29:22])

• Regulatory Paralysis
  • Well-intentioned regulations can stifle projects, leading to delays, expense, and public fatigue ([30:48]).

8. The Path Forward & Hope for the Future

• Learning by Doing
  • Success begets success; frequent construction builds a culture of efficiency and expertise ([23:18], [24:46]).
• Generational Projects
  • Large transit projects always feel untimely, but are always necessary ([33:23]):

    “It's never a good time to build and improve your infrastructure, but it's always the right time.” — Joe Stanford ([33:23])

• Institutional Knowledge
  • Bob Crawford summarizes: “What I'm hearing is institutional knowledge…And that's a culture, right?” ([26:31])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the cultural inertia of car travel:

  “People are committed to their cars, they want their cars. Politicians don't lead, they follow.” — Dan McNicol ([10:14])

• On the city’s lost momentum:

  “New York has actually been shrinking [its subway system] until now. And that is a crime because every city in the world on the New York level of world class…have been expanding their system.” — Dan McNicol ([18:45])

• On complexity and cost:

  “These projects are going too long and people just get fatigued and they start turning against the projects.” — Dan McNicol ([33:05])

• Defining Institutional Knowledge:

  “When you build like…when you're manufacturing something, the costs go down the more you do it. And it's the same with manufacturing as it is with, you know, building a subway.” — Joe Stanford ([24:46])

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:35 | Brief history of U.S. rail dominance and the freight vs. passenger disparity | | 06:08 | Impact of the Interstate Highway System; the systems “vicious cycle” | | 07:48 | The illusion of 'car freedom' vs. the reality of gridlock | | 08:39 | China’s rail revolution vs. U.S. high-speed stalemate | | 11:00 | Birth and evolution of the Second Avenue line | | 13:01 | Cut-and-cover vs. deep tunnel construction methods | | 15:14 | The story of repeated delays on the Second Avenue Subway | | 21:44 | Cost comparison: New York vs. Paris/Tokyo subway builds | | 24:46 | The importance of building expertise & learning by doing | | 27:45 | Partisan breakdown of public transit support | | 29:22 | The mutually beneficial effects of robust subway systems | | 30:48 | The impact of regulations on project viability | | 33:23 | The perpetual “bad timing” of infrastructure upgrades | | 35:18 | Fun history: Why Americans drive on the right side of the road |

Bonus: Why Do Americans Drive on the Right Side? ([35:18])

• Stems from the design of early Conestoga wagons, which had a “lazy board” for drivers to sit on the left, while keeping the wagon on the right side for visibility and safety.
• National Road history and its influence on roadway standards highlighted.

Tone and Style

The episode blends expert analysis with accessible, conversational storytelling. Both McNicol and Stanford reminisce, offer vivid personal anecdotes, and at times express frustration or hope about the state of American rail. Bob’s style is warm and inquisitive, encouraging both guests to dig deep while ensuring the technical content is relatable.

For listeners and history enthusiasts, this episode offers a sweeping look at why U.S. passenger rail progress has stalled, the formidable cost barriers, and why learning-by-doing—and a mindset shift—might help America get back on track.