American History Hotline – "Can We Add a Fifth Face to Mount Rushmore? The History and Future of the Monument"

Host: Bob Crawford | Guest: Matthew Davis, author of A Biography of a Mountain: The Making and Meaning of Mount Rushmore
Date: December 31, 2025
Podcast: American History Hotline (iHeartPodcasts)

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, host Bob Crawford explores the origins, symbolism, controversies, and future possibilities of Mount Rushmore with historian and author Matthew Davis. Responding to a listener’s question, they dive into why Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Roosevelt were chosen, the project's transformation from a local economic gambit to a patriotic national monument, and the enduring debates surrounding the landmark’s meaning, construction, and proposals to add more faces—especially in current political discourse.

Key Topics & Insights

1. The Origins of Mount Rushmore

• Initial Concept:
  • Idea born from economic hardship in South Dakota's 1920s.
  • State historian Doane Robinson sought to attract tourism and diversify the economy by monumentalizing local and Western figures on the Black Hills.
    • "Robinson wanted to steer South Dakota's economy away from relying on agriculture...and diversify it into tourism." (Matthew Davis, 05:08)
• Passing the Torch:
  • Robinson hired renowned sculptor Gutzon Borglum, who shifted the vision from regional Western icons to a national political statement.
    • "It was Borglum who was the one that decided on the four presidents." (Matthew Davis, 06:45)

2. Why Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Roosevelt?

• Borglum’s Rationale:
  • Washington - Birth (founding of the nation)
  • Jefferson - Expansion (Louisiana Purchase)
  • Lincoln - Preservation (Civil War)
  • Roosevelt - Development (Panama Canal, unifying spirit)
    • "For him...Washington represents the birth...Jefferson the expansion...Lincoln the preservation...Roosevelt the development and unity..." (Matthew Davis, 14:17)
• Alternate Proposals:
  • There were pushes for other presidents and a notable campaign for Susan B. Anthony, but Borglum “never deviated from” his original selection. (Matthew Davis, 14:17)

3. Funding and Federal Involvement

• Federal Support:
  • The project initially struggled with private fundraising.
  • President Calvin Coolidge, while vacationing in the Black Hills, was convinced to dedicate—and thus federally support—the project in 1927.
    • "At that speech...he announced federal support for Mount Rushmore." (Matthew Davis, 09:20)
• Patriotism and Political Meaning:
  • Coolidge’s involvement reframed Rushmore nationally and patriotically.
    • "He bathed the mountain and the project in the light of patriotism." (Matthew Davis, 12:04)

4. Gutzon Borglum: Visionary, Rebel, Controversial Figure

• Stone Mountain Connection:
  • Borglum’s prior work at Stone Mountain, a Confederate memorial project, foreshadowed many of Rushmore’s methods and politics.
    • "He had a very close relationship with the Ku Klux Klan..." (Matthew Davis, 18:27)
    • His firing from Stone Mountain and subsequent "getaway" further colored his reputation and approach.
      • "There’s this great scene...Borglum’s in this getaway car racing through the woods of Georgia..." (Matthew Davis, 18:27)
• Engineering the Monument:
  • Borglum introduced dynamite-driven sculpting, adapted classical scaling (the ‘pointing system’), and faced frequent trial-and-error.
    • "The heads...that was the initial idea, but...they just ran out of time and ran out of money." (Matthew Davis, 27:03)
    • "He needed to have faith...he had no idea what he was going to find when he started working on this mountain." (Matthew Davis, 30:39)

5. Building the Monument

• Workforce & Construction:
  • Crews—mostly local men seeking work during the Depression—used innovative and hazardous methods.
    • "You’d be dangling hundreds of feet above the ground...it was not for the faint of heart." (Matthew Davis, 31:14)
  • Unpredictable rock and shifting plans led to changes, such as Jefferson’s relocation on the mountain. (Matthew Davis, 28:45)
• Creative Autonomy:
  • Borglum fiercely resisted oversight, fighting for control over design, budget, and process—even as federal bureaucracy tightened.
    • "Honestly, throughout this entire process, Borglum was really his own boss." (Matthew Davis, 33:01)

6. The Unfinished Vision & Completion

• Original Grand Plans:
  • Borglum wanted to carve torsos and create a “Hall of Records” to house important American documents—a vision cut short by funding and his own death.
  • Borglum died in 1941; his son Lincoln finished the work as WWII approached.
    • "Lincoln Borglum finishes the construction...and five weeks later, Pearl Harbor happens..." (Matthew Davis, 35:08)

7. Controversies and Current Debates

• Adding a Fifth Face?
  • Recent (2025) legislation proposing President Trump illustrate ongoing debate. Geology and logistics make adding a face nearly impossible.
    • "There is no space on Mount Rushmore for a fifth face..." (Matthew Davis, 37:55)
    • "If there was going to be a fifth face...it would have to take over an existing face or...be smaller...That would not fly." (Matthew Davis, 38:37)
  • Memorable quote:
    • "That would not fly. No, definitely. Definitely not...But you never know." (Matthew Davis, 38:37)

8. Mount Rushmore’s Counterpoint: The Crazy Horse Memorial

• Intent and Complications:
  • Built nearby as a Native counterpoint, Crazy Horse’s creation is itself full of complexities.
  • Many Native voices see both Mount Rushmore and Crazy Horse as problematic, albeit for different reasons:
    • "There are a lot of people...that see Crazy Horse through the same problematic lens that they see Mount Rushmore." (Matthew Davis, 39:52)
    • Criticism includes the desecration of sacred land and whether Crazy Horse—a figure who refused to be photographed—would approve of the project.
  • Completion Uncertain:
    • "That's the million dollar question, Bob. No one really knows." (Matthew Davis, 43:04)

Notable Quotes

• On Borglum’s shift in focus:

  • "It really changed [from] one of economics into one of politics."
    (Matthew Davis, 07:59)

• On Coolidge and funding:

  • "It is kind of mind boggling that he would commit this kind of level of support...He bathed the mountain...in the light of patriotism."
    (Matthew Davis, 12:04)

• On the construction process:

  • "It took enough effort just to get their portraits on the mountain."
    (Matthew Davis, 27:03)

• On the possibility of a fifth face:

  • "If there was going to be a fifth face, there would have to be a total recalibration of the mountain itself..."
    (Matthew Davis, 00:00 & 37:55)

• On Crazy Horse and competing narratives:

  • "The more I learned about Crazy Horse...the less convinced I was of that narrative [as counterpoint]."
    (Matthew Davis, 39:52)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:31 – Host introduction and listener question
• 05:08 – The origins: Doane Robinson’s vision and South Dakota economics
• 07:25 – Robinson vs. Borglum: Vision shift
• 09:20 – Federal funding: Coolidge's involvement
• 12:04 – Patriotism and political meaning
• 14:17 – Why these four presidents?
• 18:27 – Borglum, Stone Mountain, and ties to the KKK
• 26:51 – Why only heads (not full figures)?
• 28:06 – How do you carve a mountain? Technology, danger, and workforce
• 33:01 – Who was really in charge? Borglum’s autonomy
• 35:08 – Completion, Borglum’s death, and WWII symbolism
• 37:55 – Can a fifth face be added? 2025 debate and logistical barriers
• 39:29 – Crazy Horse Memorial: Origins, controversies, implications

Tone & Takeaways

The episode balances deep historical context, lively storytelling, and a willingness to address controversy head-on. Matthew Davis contextualizes Mount Rushmore as both awe-inspiring and problematic—a product of its time, its personalities, and enduring American debates over history and representation. The show closes by placing Mount Rushmore and Crazy Horse in dialogue, urging listeners to embrace the complexity of American monuments and the contested landscapes they inhabit.

Summary prepared for listeners seeking a thorough, conversational, and nuanced exploration of Mount Rushmore’s past, present, and symbolic future.