American History Hotline
Episode: Was Johnny Appleseed a Real Person? The Man Behind the Myth
Host: Bob Crawford
Guest: William Kerrigan, author of Johnny Appleseed and the American A Cultural History
Date: December 10, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the real story behind Johnny Appleseed, answering the age-old question: Was he a real person, and what did he actually do? Host Bob Crawford speaks with historian William Kerrigan, who uncovers the facts, the myths, and the legacy of John Chapman—better known as Johnny Appleseed. Together, they explore Chapman’s life, his entrepreneurial ventures, religious influences, the formation of his legend, and the lasting impact on American folklore.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Johnny Appleseed: The Real Man (03:23–06:55)

• John Chapman was a real person.

  • Born September 26, 1774, in Leominster, Massachusetts.
  • Kerrigan’s research story: He once had to convince a skeptical police officer that Johnny Appleseed was real.

    "You trying to tell me that Johnny Appleseed is real? You think I'm that stupid?" (06:08, police officer via Kerrigan)

• Early Life:

  • Raised primarily by relatives while his father served in the Revolutionary War.
  • Family circumstances led to him leaving home as a teenager, likely apprenticed locally.

• Migration and Career Beginnings:

  • Chapman first appears in historical records in northwestern Pennsylvania (1796), later moving into Ohio.
  • Worked various frontier jobs: planting apple trees, tapping maple, driving cattle.

2. The Apple Seed Enterprise (12:16–17:10)

• Why Apples?

  • On the frontier, planting 50 apple or peach trees was often a requirement to secure land.
  • Chapman sourced seeds from cider mills, planting nurseries ahead of settlement and selling young trees to new arrivals.
  • Entrepreneurship and utility:
    • Apple's primary use on the frontier was for cider and animal feed, not for eating.
    • Chapman sold saplings for 1-2 cents each.

• Genetics and Apple Cultivation:

  • Apples don’t grow true from seed; most produce inedible fruit.

  • “So Chapman, by planting seedling trees, was planting what Henry David Thoreau called wild apples.” (15:21, Kerrigan)

  • A lucky few produced good-tasting fruit; the rest were mainly for cider or livestock.

3. Chapman: Saint or Entrepreneur? (17:04–19:38)

• Public Perception:

  • Early legends portray him as a charitable, gentle figure (like St. Francis).
  • Later research reveals he was also a businessman, acquiring land and selling trees.
  • Complex reality: Chapman straddled both roles—spreading faith and helping settlers, as well as managing nurseries and handling real estate.

  “I sometimes give a talk that's called Johnny Appleseed, St. Francis or Steve Jobs. And the truth is he's a little bit of both.” (18:07, Kerrigan)

• Personal Values:

  • Not motivated by wealth—often gave away trees or accepted IOUs he never collected.
  • Spent much earnings on religious tracts and proselytizing.
  • Lived frugally, often in rags, sleeping outdoors even when offered rooms.

4. Spiritual Roots: The Second Great Awakening (19:38–22:05, 24:28–25:56)

• Religious Influence:

  • Chapman was a devout follower of Emanuel Swedenborg and the Church of the New Jerusalem—a “head religion” demanding deep study rather than emotional conversion.
  • His faith drove his wanderings and his efforts to distribute religious literature.

  • “So he was a distinctive person in that way, but he was determined to try to win converts to the new church wherever he went.” (21:18, Kerrigan)

• Broader Context:

  • Chapman’s life spanned a period of religious ferment (Second Great Awakening), which helped fuel both his mission and his legend.

5. The Emergence of the Myth (25:22–28:39, 32:29–35:33)

• Why did the stories grow?

  • Chapman maintained a simple, old-fashioned lifestyle as Ohio modernized, making him a living symbol of the “lost frontier.”
  • Nostalgia for pioneer virtues (frugality, neighborliness) helped his legend spread.

  “He becomes a symbol of the lost frontier. And Americans have this ambivalence towards modernity... Chapman becomes an endearing figure because he seems to represent these, these old values of being helpful to your neighbors and not worrying about striving and getting ahead.” (27:10, Kerrigan)

• Tall Tales:

  • Many stories exaggerate parts of his character yet reflect real traits—compassion for animals, ascetic living, generosity.
  • Examples: Letting mosquitoes live, regretting killing a snake, sharing a hollow tree with bears.

• Timeline of the Legend:

  • Chapman was locally legendary in his lifetime but not widely known until after his death (1845).
  • Early press was scant—his main write-up during life appeared in a Manchester, England church bulletin (1817).
  • National attention came from writers like Rosella Rice (1871) and coverage in Harper's Monthly (1871).
  • County histories in Ohio (late 1800s) solidified his presence in collective memory.

  “What's really remarkable is how little actually makes it to print during his lifetime.” (35:21, Kerrigan)

• Nickname:

  • Adopted during his Ohio years; sometimes signed as “Appleseed John.” (35:33)

6. Chapman’s Character: Empathy and Vegetarianism (28:39–32:29)

• Was he a vegetarian?

  • Early records: Bought pork, gunpowder, and whiskey.
  • Later in life, evidence suggests he became vegetarian, influenced perhaps by Swedenborgian splinter sects.
  • Famous for extraordinary empathy toward animals (and insects)—a trait theme in both stories and tall tales.

  “He did seem to have extraordinary empathy for all living things at a time on a frontier where that was very uncommon.” (31:02, Kerrigan)

7. Favorites: A Lighter Moment (36:06)

• Favorite Apple:
  • Kerrigan: “Cox’s Orange Pippin—an old English apple… the best tasting apple I’ve ever had.” (36:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Skeptical Police Encounter:

  “You trying to tell me that Johnny Appleseed is real? You think I'm that stupid?”
  —William Kerrigan recounting a police officer’s disbelief (06:08)

• On Apple Propagation:

  “Most of them would have apples you would not want to sink your teeth into, but they still had a lot of use for you.”
  —William Kerrigan (15:21)

• Entrepreneur or Saint?

  “Johnny Appleseed: St. Francis or Steve Jobs. And the truth is he's a little bit of both.”
  —William Kerrigan (18:07)

• Empathy for All Life:

  “He did seem to have extraordinary empathy for all living things at a time on a frontier where that was very uncommon.”
  —William Kerrigan (31:02)

• On the Legacy:

  “He becomes a symbol of the lost frontier. And Americans have this ambivalence towards modernity...”
  —William Kerrigan (27:10)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:23 — Bob Crawford introduces William Kerrigan and the episode question.
• 04:29 — Kerrigan confirms Johnny Appleseed was real, sharing personal research anecdotes.
• 07:23 — Description of John Chapman’s appearance and early life.
• 12:27 — Why Chapman started planting apple seeds.
• 15:06 — Apple propagation discussion: wild apples versus modern varieties.
• 17:04 — Chapman’s motivations: entrepreneurship and charity.
• 19:38 — Religious influences: Swedenborgian faith and the Second Great Awakening.
• 25:22 — The birth and spread of the Johnny Appleseed myth.
• 28:39 — Was he a vegetarian? Exploring life choices and personality.
• 32:29 — The myth’s timeline: how and when the legend took root.
• 36:06 — Kerrigan’s favorite apple variety.

Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, nuanced portrait of Johnny Appleseed as both a historical person and a subject of American mythology. William Kerrigan illustrates how John Chapman’s mix of entrepreneurship, religious fervor, compassion, and eccentricity fostered not just apple orchards but an enduring American legend. The discussion bridges the gap between myth and reality, revealing a complex individual whose legend still shapes how Americans view their past.